1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: back to work in progress friends. I am so excited 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: to sit down with one of my favorite personalities, comedians, storytellers, girlies. 4 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Today we are joined by Dylan mulvaney. She is here 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: to talk about her new book, Paper Doll Notes from 6 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: curtain on her life, from the it girl online lifestyle 8 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: to witty and intimate reflections of her journey both pre 9 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: and post transition, family school memories, dealing with the Internet, theater, manifesting, 10 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: being a Broadway diva, all of it. Today, we are 11 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: going to dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're 12 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: gonna laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be, 13 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about why this book is 14 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: a love letter to every single person who stands up 15 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan mlvany. 16 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: A. I'm here here, but it's funny because I feel 17 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: we did just see each other two days ago. We did, 18 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: but we didn't get enough air time. 19 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: No, and that was also a bit of a whirlwind. 20 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: It's such a great event. 21 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Yes, tell the people overwhelming. Tell people where we were. 22 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: So we were at the Elton John Aids Foundation Giant 23 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: Academy Awards fundraiser, amazing gala dinner. 24 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, chapel Roane. Oh my god, you've been to this before? 25 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Yes? 26 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: How many times? Uh? 27 00:01:58,960 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Three? 28 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: Maybe? Okay? I think this was my first one. I'm 29 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: lately where like they're like, this comes out in five months, 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: but this one will actually come out soon so we 32 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: can talk about it. 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: But that's because this is coming out. 34 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: Because we're talking about my book, and my book comes 35 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: out next week, and I'm so excited. I I'm sending 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: you the whole package that's going to be coming with 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 2: my lush bath bomb and everything. 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: But you love a bath bomb. 39 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 2: I'm upset. Do you take baths? 40 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: I should? 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: I can already take this. ADHD is going to be 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: kicking in for both of us pretty soon. 43 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to sit in a bath. 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: I well, yeah, I think that. I like to bring 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: all my activities, so I like a book, I like 46 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: to memorize lines in the bath. I like to I 47 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: do a computer. But you can't learn the hard way. 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: I've lost like maybe three phones in one laptop in 49 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: the bathtub, dropped done, but you're alive. I'm here, Apple. 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: That's the one thing that really got going is like 51 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: if you if it goes in, you're not going to 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: will survive. 53 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, it's a glowing endorsement. 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: Really, but I feel like my voice is kind of 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit after our 56 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: night out. 57 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: After night I turned into a pumpkin. And I don't 58 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: know if it was the fact that I was wearing 59 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life, where 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: if life has just been so intense, you know, in 61 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: the current horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted, But once 62 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: Chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged 63 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: into the battery and I just I shut down and 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: I had to. 65 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: Go to bit you left that I was going to say, 66 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: I didn't see you. But that was what was crazy 67 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: about then A whole new group of people because there 68 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: was the after party to the party, yes, and so 69 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 2: it was like a whole new but we had been 70 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: there for hours and hours and so that that was 71 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: a lot in a good way. It was a lot 72 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: and we're at the same table. We had some really 73 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: cute people with us, cute unter twohand so adorable mckayl 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: the Jay Rodriguez. Absolutely, Oh, I love seeing her. It's 75 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: always so fun to see Bobby. Oh my god. 76 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: Yes, and you were you with who's your coworker that 77 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: you are? 78 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: That was my manager, manager. Yes, he's so cute and such. 79 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: He's like my best friend and manager. 80 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's so lovely. And then Ashland and I were there, 81 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: and Renee, our sweet friend, Renee Stubbs came with us, 82 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, it was just a great night. We had 83 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: a nice crew. 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: You know. What did bother me was that I didn't 85 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Rome. I 86 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: didn't see enough dancing like people were in it. But 87 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: I'm used to like thrusting my body for that h 88 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: O T T O G. There wasn't a ton of 89 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: room too. 90 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of room every I felt like 91 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: we were doing very tiny. 92 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: It was yeah, but I will say it felt like 93 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: watching queer history like while them singing together. It was incredible, unreal. 94 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: And I was standing next to her dad for a 95 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: while and it was like watching him kind of like 96 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: take it in was really sweet. Yeah. 97 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: We talked a lot about it on Money Day after, 98 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, we were all kind of recapping the night 99 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: and watching the way Elton looked at her and watching 100 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: the way she was looking at Elton. It felt, yeah, 101 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: like such a such a historic moment across these generations 102 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: of queerness and activism and advocacy, and I don't know, 103 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: it made me really emotional. 104 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: It was the that was where the gays were, like 105 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 2: we were in that room. And I saw Chapel in 106 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three at the Wiltern in LA and the 107 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: only thing that I could compare it to was that 108 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: that scene in Rocketman where like everyone's in the doing 109 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: the crocodile rock and everyone starts to float off the 110 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: you know, like off their feet into the air. And 111 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: that is how I felt at this concert of like, 112 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: you know, maybe like nine hundred people watching Chapel and 113 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: then now seeing her do that like it it kind 114 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: of had that like she's now like my Elton John 115 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: for so many people who have grew up with Elton John, 116 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: and I just thought, oh that was fun. I had 117 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: a good time too. 118 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: Did you like the party? 119 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 2: I liked the party, I got to see lots of friends, 120 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: and but I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards, 121 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: which is it's a rare occasion that I do that. 122 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: But you did it. 123 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night. 124 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 2: Did you order food? 125 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order 126 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: late night tacos, which is rare for me. 127 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: Where would you order from? 128 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god? So there's so many good places in 129 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: La There's we have Tacos nineteen eighty six. We have Weisawtos. 130 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: We have Cactus, which is really my. 131 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: I don't know any og. I just get Taco Bell. 132 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: Isn't that so sad? Oh? 133 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: I have to take you? 134 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to say this. 135 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: We have a tour. 136 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: We have a tour and now we have a little time. 137 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 2: There's Taco Do's events now. Yes, And I think that 138 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: yesterday was it was a bad hangover day for me. 139 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to 140 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: be a little more selective about not going to too 141 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: much stuff. Yeah, where did I saw you again? On? 142 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: What was the other thing that I saw? I can't Oh? 143 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: Women of the Year? Yeah time, Oh my god? And 144 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: that one was uh Levey or you know the singer 145 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: the uh Yes. 146 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: She was wonderful. 147 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: He did that song keep on Going with Your Crazy Dreams, 148 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: like to your it was like to your twelve year 149 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: old self, I think, And I was like, I don't 150 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: think my twelve year old self would have ever imagined 151 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: being at this like Women of the Year for Time 152 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: gala with like all these icons. Like I was like 153 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: kept flashing because I felt really tired, and I was like, 154 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: oh do I want to go to this? And I 155 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: looked around and was like, Oh my god, how lucky 156 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: am I to be in this room with all these gals. 157 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so special. It's really cool, And I 158 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: want I think about that for you and what an 159 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: amazing sort of connection to that song, because you know, 160 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit last time you 161 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: came on the bus. 162 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: It was basically a year ago. Yeah, I feel like 163 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: I'm part of the pod family. 164 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: Now are and I love it. But I you know, 165 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: I always think about how you would interact with your 166 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: younger self. And one of the things that I think 167 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: is so beautiful in the book is that you actually 168 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: dedicated it to your oldest best friend Lily Hi Lily, 169 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: and I loved watching you tell her that the book 170 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: is dedicated to her. You know, you wrote the girl 171 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: who helped show me the way. What what does it 172 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: feel like now to sort of look back at your 173 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: younger self, you know, the girl that Leve is saying 174 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: to the girl that you grew up with, and Lily 175 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: a girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps 176 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: before you did. It must be so surreal from this 177 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: place to look back at it. 178 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think that so little of like what's happening 179 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: right now feels like normal, And it still feels like 180 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: I'm either living in a dreamer or a nightmare. And 181 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: Lily is like the one constant that like when I'm 182 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before, 183 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 2: not only transition, but like this industry and in this town, 184 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: and having her here with me, going to these events, 185 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, being my plus one is like it's a dream. 186 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 2: We met when we were ten doing high school musical. 187 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 2: She was in the basketball ensemble. I was Ryan, and 188 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: she was pissed that she wasn't Sharpey. But I think 189 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: that like having that person that has known you longer 190 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: than you know anyone, and has loved you through all 191 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 2: the different chapters. I think it feels really good because 192 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm still constantly meeting people trying to 193 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: like either you know, convince them of what it is 194 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: that I want to do or who I am or 195 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: what my identity should look like for them, because it's 196 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: the way that I see myself. But for her, I 197 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: don't have there's no explanation necessary. Who is your lily 198 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: like from back in the day. 199 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I moved a lot as a kid, 200 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: and so I we don't have so many people who 201 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: stretch like way way wait, probably I don't really have 202 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: anybody before middle school. And there's four of us from 203 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: my middle school in high school that are still really close. 204 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: But my like my my Lily is my best friend. Yeah, 205 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've been at it for almost twenty years together. 206 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: And where'd you meet? 207 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: We met at a conference way back in the day 208 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: before they were cool or like branded, you. 209 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: Know, a conference queen. So yeah, bush, Well, that is 210 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: one thing I will say I was thinking about when 211 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 2: because you know, we talked about going to Paris together 212 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: last year and oh was that even maybe was that 213 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: before we did the podcast? Or I think it was alf. 214 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: I think it was after we had a really fun 215 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man 216 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: that worked at CIA was there and he's like, you 217 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: know who always will show up, you know when you 218 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: ask her and when you need her for something is 219 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: Sophia Bush. And so like you've been doing in this 220 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: for a long time and the best way, and like Sowet, 221 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: you really are someone that people trust and also that 222 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: like you come through for people in really big ways. 223 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: I think showing up is really important. Ye, And it's 224 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful 225 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: it is when people do it for me. And I 226 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: think you know the way Nia and I bonded and 227 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: built our friendship, you know, out of that space, she 228 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: cracked a joke like why is the girl from TV 229 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: or taking notes like a court stenographer? 230 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: Right? 231 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: And I looked back at her and I said, I 232 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: went to journalisms called my notes are very good? Do 233 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: you need a copy? And she was like yeah. And 234 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: then we've been best friends ever since. And I think 235 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: for us, we've always been really mission aligned. And it's 236 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: weird to me when when mission isn't part of you know, 237 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: someone's life or their their ethos, and I think it's 238 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: probably why so many of us find each other, because yes, 239 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: you want to be creative and tell stories and have joy, 240 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: and you also want to make the world around you 241 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: a little kinder. 242 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: And we want to have a reason. Like even it 243 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: drives me crazy if I'm doing like a photo shoot 244 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: and I don't understand, like who is this for? What 245 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: is that? You know, it might just be a picture 246 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: and I might look pretty, but like is there what 247 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: else is here to like go off of? And no 248 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: matter what it is, I think I want to figure 249 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 2: out what is the reason behind something? And why am 250 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why 251 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: did you make this podcast? Why? Like there has to 252 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: be something other than the surface behind it. Even if 253 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: it is just to like bring a little joy or 254 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: to make someone laugh like that that can be enough 255 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: in some cases. 256 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: But why did you want to write the book? 257 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: I wanted to write the book. I think at first 258 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: this book has become a lot of different things because 259 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: I sold it really early on around days of Girlhood, 260 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: and I thought I was gonna be this fluffy little 261 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: piece of you know, fun for people to have on 262 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: their coffee table about you know, diary entries for my 263 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: first year, and I grew up reading like Chelsea Handler 264 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books. 265 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted 266 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: to be a little raunchy. And then once beer Gate happened, 267 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: I knew that it needed to be something very different, 268 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: and so it ended up being this thing that was 269 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: deeply healing for me and I because I still in 270 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: some ways had this like bowling ball sitting on my chest, 271 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: not being able to articulate what happened or how I 272 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: felt about it, and I wanted people to know because 273 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: I built my platform on telling people things, and I 274 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: think this feels like a much safer medium than social 275 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: media does right now for me, And I think it's 276 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: it's something that I never thought I would get to 277 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: write a book and my life. So it's, i think, 278 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: probably the thing I'm most proud of now and I'm 279 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: scared because I love it and I don't know yet 280 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: how the world is going to interpret that. But would 281 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: you ever write a book? 282 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: I've been dodging the question for about eight years. 283 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: And now you can't because you're holding my hand. 284 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: Here we are. Yeah, people have approached me a few 285 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: times about it, and I think I'm finally in a 286 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: place where I'm ready to think about that. I think 287 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: there was a time where it felt when my team 288 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: first came to me with the idea. At first it 289 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: felt a little premature, And now I think I understand 290 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: that feeling better because I understand so many things about 291 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: myself better. But it's terrifying to. 292 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: Think about it. I think if you just don't frame 293 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: it as like a memoir, like I always think. 294 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: Of, like, yeah, come on, like, we're not eighty right, 295 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: I can't, I write, we can't. 296 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: And that's what I really because some people still classify 297 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: this like as a memoir. So I'm so scared to 298 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: say memoir, Like is that because I feel like I'm 299 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: from like Wisconsin and I'm talking about this book that 300 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: I wrote called Them, and it's not a memoir. It's 301 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: like it's a hard word to say. Can you say memoir? Memoir? 302 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: Memoir? 303 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, we're settling on it. 304 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: It helps if you if you memo, yeah, if you 305 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: try to sound a little bit like the like a 306 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: phone sex operator memoir memoir me, it comes out easier. 307 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: Right. Oh my god, that's a beautiful bag is that 308 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: your purse. 309 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: It is. 310 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: Love it and it will fit a memoir into Babies. 311 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: With Adhd sat together for a podcast. 312 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: So I I like that. I call it my like 313 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: quarter life crisis book, and I think because it's very 314 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: specific in the timeline, it's about my transition, it's about 315 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: after beer Gate. We do have some essays that flash 316 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: back to, you know, my childhood, but not in a 317 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: way that feels like this is everything that I have 318 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: to offer from age zero to twenty six and and 319 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: that's all, you know, that could never revisit any of 320 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: these topics. I wanted it to feel like Chelsea Handler 321 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: did a lot of kind of essays early on that 322 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: I really like loved reading as a teenager because it 323 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to 324 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: comment on our lives, you know. And it kind of 325 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: also kind of carry Bradshaw in the way that like 326 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: she was writing about things so messily and I haven't 327 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: gotten to talk a lot about like sex or religion 328 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: or things you know online. That felt a lot more 329 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: fun to put into a book. 330 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors who 331 00:16:50,840 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: make this show possible. And I do think it's really 332 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: important I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books. 333 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: And to your point, one of the things I think 334 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: we need more of is a little bit of permission 335 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: to be messy. 336 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: Humans are messy my house right now. Oh it's a state. 337 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: I also like, I'm one of those people that like 338 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: I will like have If I'm like, I clean my 339 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: entire place. It looks amazing for about fifteen minutes, and 340 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 2: then something happens and I don't know what it is, 341 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: but it then looks almost worse than it did before 342 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 2: I cleaned it. So that's I think like. And I've 343 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 2: seen a few the reviews are starting to roll out, 344 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: and some of them are like, oh that you you know, 345 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: it can be trickier to find the timeline or it 346 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: can you know what are we in a journal entry 347 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: or are we in an essay? And there's a little 348 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 2: bit of that. But I kind of love that it's 349 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: not about the life linear nature, but rather like what 350 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: I'm learning and how I learned it versus when. But God, 351 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: I feel like life sometimes only does your life right 352 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up? 353 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: Oh I think I started a big glean up a 354 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: couple of years ago. My life feels very full and 355 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: I am incredibly grateful for that, and I would like 356 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: to have a little more space, and so I'm trying 357 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: to kind of recalibrate certain things. Yeah, because I actually 358 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: really like my life and I want to be present 359 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: for more of it. Yes, and that feels special. 360 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: I feel the same. I feel like this has been 361 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: a really interesting time. I've taken on a bit too much. 362 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: I've learned, and so I'm going to get through that 363 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: and then try to clean shop in other ways. But 364 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: I think my biggest thing is I like to show 365 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: up one hundred percent for whatever it is that I'm doing, 366 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: whether that's an interview or a you know, a performance 367 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 2: like I want, like I did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival 368 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: last year, and I during that time, you know, I 369 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 2: had all these other things that needed attention or my 370 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: eyes on and I basically was like, No, all I 371 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 2: want to do right now is work on this show. 372 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: And I would be so disappointed in myself if I 373 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: don't give it my all and be like, oh, well, 374 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: I was trying to do a thousand other things. So 375 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: that is the part that scares me of like being 376 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: a multi hyphen it and then being like, what that 377 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: actually means of being able to put your attention to 378 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: different things at the same time. 379 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: I feel that as well, because I wonder if I 380 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: just did one thing at a time, would I maybe 381 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: accomplish more at the end. But also I have to 382 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: I realize I have to be gentle with myself and 383 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: also trust myself. I am curious about a. 384 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: Lot I know on our ADHD wants us to be 385 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 2: doing a lot at the same time. 386 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: How did you actually start down the path of comedy 387 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: and writing and the fringe festival? Like, oh, now you've 388 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: written a book. You create so much, and I want 389 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: to know. 390 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: How, because I don't think anyone else is letting me 391 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: do that, Like, no, I'm not someone that's being particularly 392 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: like tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell. 393 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: And so I think right now the best option is 394 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: to tell my own, because I'm such an active member 395 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: of my life and wanting to be in this industry 396 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: knowing that these are some going to be some of 397 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: the really integral years to what the rest of it 398 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: looks like, and so I don't want to sit at 399 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: home waiting for you know, I would love to just 400 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: be an actress, and I would love to just wait 401 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: for the auditions to come in and for the parts 402 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: to play. Right now, that's you know, limited for trans women, 403 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: especially me, who I think is you know, shares quite publicly, 404 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: so I'm always trying to carve out other ways of 405 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: filling time. And then I think what's fun is when 406 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity, 407 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: I can fit it in amongst what I've already created. 408 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: But I'm not waiting for anyone else, And I think 409 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of like 410 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: always trying to manufacture and trying to tell, you know, 411 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: a story or get something off the ground. But I'm 412 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: proud that that I'm I feel quite I'm usually quite 413 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: sub in certain situations, but I feel very dumb when 414 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: it comes to my career and my trajectory in my creativity. 415 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: Like I think I'm really after finding my gender identity. 416 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is what being an artist 417 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: can be now that I've like figured some things out 418 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 2: within myself. And I think maybe had things come a 419 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: little easier as far as like I, you know, was 420 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week. I 421 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have written this book, and I probably wouldn't have, 422 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: you know, started my podcast or any of these things 423 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: that I think I need, we need right now. And 424 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: I do think transjoy can look a lot of different ways, 425 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 2: but this book is probably the loudest version of it 426 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: for me in this moment. 427 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: I love that for you. Yeah, And what it strikes 428 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: me as when you talk about sort of taking control, 429 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: it's it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity. 430 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: You are you are making the things that you want 431 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: and need that your younger self probably needed too. And 432 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: I loved something that you said. Rolling Stone just did 433 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: a great profile on you on the book, and it 434 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: was such a sweet way to clap back at people 435 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: who are so upset by transjoy. You said, I'm not 436 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see 437 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: a Broadway musical. 438 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: Period. Well that's not like, that's it, that's my transagenda. Yeah, 439 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: and hopefully that broad musical would have a transperson in it. 440 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: But would be wonderful it should be you. 441 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 2: But at the very least, go see fucking cats, you know, 442 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: Like I'm I just think that people are so easy 443 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: to project identities and activism and all these things onto 444 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 2: you when if you really listen to what the person 445 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: is trying to say or you know, what I've also 446 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: think is crazy as I've done interviews where I'm like, 447 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: I am not an activist, and then they title the 448 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: interview activist Dylan mulvany, and so it is really crazy 449 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to 450 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,239 Speaker 2: be in order to get people to figure out what 451 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: it is you want. 452 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: So what would you say you want? 453 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets 454 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: to tell stories, sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want 455 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 2: to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things, 456 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: like through transness and identity. I would love to make 457 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: people think. I think that's something that's newer on like 458 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: my list of desires, because for a long time I 459 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: didn't know that I could be vulnerable, like publicly. That 460 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 2: was kind of against the laws of my family, you know, 461 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: we were supposed to keep those things to ourselves. But 462 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: now I love it and I think that I I 463 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: would love to find love in the hard places and 464 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: help other people figure that out too. But in a 465 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 2: lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid 466 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: as in a sketch or in you know, a musical 467 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: or what they don't have to all be in you know, 468 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: at conferences or you know, speaking at the White House 469 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: or what, you know, whatever it is that that some 470 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: people also might assume that means. 471 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you stand up for people, stand 472 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind 473 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: of get cast as a very serious person. 474 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 475 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: So many people think I'm so serious, and then people 476 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird 477 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: and really quirky and funny. 478 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 2: Right, we know how to have a good time. Yeah. 479 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: I actually will say though, some of the most serious 480 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: people are the ones that like to have the most fun. 481 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: But then people expect that of potentially us. We're in 482 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: a way that I don't think is always fair. I think, like, 483 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: I love letting loose with people, and I think people 484 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 2: can tell that from social media. But I also I'm 485 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: definitely not the trans girl that is ready to like, 486 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: you know, give you every single statistic and talk about 487 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: every single you know bill or you know, anti trans 488 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes, 489 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: but then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like 490 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: so many other dolls that are really good at that, 491 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: and I can do my best to figure out how 492 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: to connect them when those opportunities come my way or 493 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 2: you know, they've we have great conversations, like I'm going 494 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: on a bunch of talk shows next week and I've 495 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: talked to a bunch of dolls about you know, what, 496 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: what should I say? What do you think is important 497 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive 498 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready, 499 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: but not leading with it. 500 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: Well, one thing I think is really important is that 501 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: that can't just fall on you, right, It can't just 502 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: be on trans women to advocate for trans women, since 503 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: women need to show up and advocate for you in 504 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: the same way that when we talk about gender based 505 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: violence around the world, that's actually that's a male problem, 506 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: that is a statistically male problem. If we scream into 507 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: the void about what women go through in the world 508 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: and men don't join us to say men should stop 509 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: assaulting women, right, we're in a vacuum. And so I 510 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: think I'm so glad you feel like you get to 511 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: be your full self, and I love that you have 512 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: a community that helps you figure out what you should 513 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: use those platforms to say in the moment, and I 514 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: want other folks to be reminded that we have to 515 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: show up for you too. 516 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I 517 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: think when it comes to allyship, because the you know, 518 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 2: far right extremists are getting really good at trying to 519 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: scare our allies away. And even this was an example 520 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: is getting my makeup done by a really lovely gay 521 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: man last week, and he was talking about this transvestigation 522 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: over this very famous woman that you know, all these 523 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: people are claiming is a trans woman and all the 524 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: reasons why they think she's trans, and I had to 525 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because 526 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: you know, whether this person was trans or not, they 527 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 2: were trying to cast her as this like monster or 528 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: this person hiding you know, secrets or deceiving the public. 529 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: And and I had to explain that like what they 530 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,959 Speaker 2: now want to do is make cis women believe that 531 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: like being called trans or you know, being accused of 532 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: being a trans person is like the worst, you know thing, 533 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: when in reality it's it's like most transgirls I know 534 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: are really cute and and they we've got our you know, 535 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 2: we've got we're working on it, we're getting it together. 536 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: But I find it very problematic that a lot of 537 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: allies don't always know what is transphobic, like like and 538 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: you know, we've got to figure out those conversations. But 539 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: if if it's pushing a notion that like transness is 540 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: evil or you know problematic, like, chances are it's probably transphobic. Yeah, 541 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: And and so it's it's interesting getting to still exist 542 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: in around so many icons, and especially these women that 543 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: I call friends and and that support me publicly like 544 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's 545 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: Day or you know, standing up for me. And and 546 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: that's the kind of where I'm like, holy crap, like 547 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: there's there's still the good ones, and I'm here with 548 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: you right now. I think that it makes me sad 549 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: to think that certain people would be scared to you know, uh, 550 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: be seen with the trans person or to work with 551 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: us or hire us. But there's so much power in 552 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: saying no, I'm not going to live in that fear 553 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: or that you know people are going to boycott my 554 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: product or not watch this television show or unfollow because 555 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: you support you know a transperson. That's that is, it's 556 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: we can't give into that, We cannot give into that fear. 557 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm so tired of being scared. 558 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. One of 559 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: the things I think is really beautiful about the book 560 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: is you do claim so much joy, you do share 561 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: so much happiness with us, and you also aren't shying 562 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: away from the things that have been hard, and you 563 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: do talk about beer Gate, and you do really bring 564 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: us into what it feels like to be targeted by 565 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: these far right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit 566 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: me so hard actually is something you share in the 567 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: first thirty pages of the book, and you talk about 568 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: how so many external opinions. You know, you're one person 569 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: on the internet and millions of people can comment at you, 570 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: and talk about how so many external opinions can can 571 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: create so much noise, so much mental and emotional noise, 572 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: that your darkest thoughts, your self loathing, your critique that 573 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: all of us have inside of us, can suddenly be 574 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: parroting the worst of the comment section. Yes and how 575 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: And reading your words when you talked about it, like 576 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels. 577 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: It honestly made me gasp, Like I heard myself gasp 578 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: when I read it, because I know how paralyzing that 579 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: feeling is, and. 580 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: How do you get I think, how do you identify it? 581 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: How do you get out that crazy is? When you can, 582 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: then when you have made enough progress to see that 583 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: you are, you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like, 584 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 2: I'm either going to believe this what they're saying about myself, 585 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: and I'm going to take it on as part of me, 586 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is 587 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: not true about myself because I know who I am 588 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: and the people that I love know who I am, 589 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: and and let that be the course that you take. 590 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: And I actually, even just yesterday, even that we were 591 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: talking about the Elton John party, I was interviewing people 592 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh, 593 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close 594 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: to people, she won't let her you know, people get 595 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: a word, all these things, and I went I almost 596 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'm going to make a video now 597 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know it. And then 598 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: I was like oh my gosh, like it was like 599 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: a clear cut you just changed your opinion about yourself 600 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: based on these other people. And there were plenty of 601 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: other comments that loved it and that were, you know, 602 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: behind what I was doing, but those other ones were louder, 603 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: And I think what I had to do was not 604 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: only kind of take some distance from taking in information 605 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: about myself, which is so hard to not look, but 606 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: I had to be very clear about who who I was. 607 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: I think I spent kind of the last two years 608 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about 609 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: myself to be true, so that now when I put 610 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: a book out and have a lot of new critique 611 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: coming my way, that I can stand behind those things. 612 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that 613 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: I talk too much. I know that well that even 614 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: me just saying that that was a projection of someone else. 615 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: That I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that. 616 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: That I feel really beautiful most of the time, but 617 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: that I also can sometimes get in my head and 618 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love 619 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: to be raunchy, and that that's not something to be 620 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: ashamed of about myself. These are little things that I 621 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: think are helpful. Then when I read those, I can 622 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: kind of go down the checklist and be like, Okay, 623 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: so that's it's not here already, and I don't think 624 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: we need to add it. It's just it's so crazy 625 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: how great social media can be and then how toxic 626 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 2: it and even the I think it goes back to 627 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: the press too in the media of how they're pushing transphobia, 628 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: because a lot of what they're saying and these headlines 629 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: are like deeply transphobic, but they're very click baity and 630 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: those are other like those Actually I have an easier 631 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: time laughing at because it's like it feels like this, 632 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 2: you know, news source that couldn't be more incorrect, versus 633 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: like seeing a person's name on a screen that's like 634 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: leaving a specific comment, because that feels, in a weird 635 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: way more tangible knowing there's like a human behind it. 636 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, where it's a bot though, what are bots could 637 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: just be a bot? 638 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 2: I don't understand. Do you have do you have bots 639 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: are looked into bots? 640 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: Oh, it's just it's relentless and it's. 641 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 2: We need like a queer bot farm that like throws 642 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: the good stuff out there. Just imagine someone like doing. 643 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: Like sexy sassy commentary. 644 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: Oh that would be not who's going to pay for that? 645 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. We need a benevolent it. 646 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 2: Was really billion Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to 647 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 2: put out. 648 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires. Unfortunately. 649 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 2: I hate it. It's tricky, right, weird. 650 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, but if we win the power Ball, 651 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: it could be that's. 652 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: What, and then it's going to be us making a 653 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 2: good bot farm. 654 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm here for that. 655 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: Is that an oxymoron? A good bot farm? Is it bot? 656 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: By the way, what is robot? Yeah? 657 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: Like a robot, it's a it's a little digital terrorist essentially. 658 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: I'm also getting scared of, like how we're our future 659 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 2: is going to go with robots? 660 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator? 661 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: What are we doing with the I don't like the 662 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: self driving cars? 663 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: No creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But 664 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: at least we're entering into a future where your book exists. 665 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: Woo. I bet it's going to get banned so fast. 666 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about 667 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: you saying that is. My partner was like, what is 668 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you 669 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: need any more books? And I said, oh no, sorry, 670 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: last week I had to buy all the books the 671 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: DOJ band just in case. Oh my god, we're that 672 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: in it. And I'm going, this is so weird that 673 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,959 Speaker 1: I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case. 674 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,479 Speaker 2: Well, I mean and say that I write in the book, 675 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: I say like, I hope the words on this page 676 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 2: last longer than the videos on my profile. And TikTok 677 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 2: got banned for a second there, and I was like, oh, 678 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic 679 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 2: fifty years from now sentence, And now it's like the reality. 680 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 2: But a lot harder to get rid of something physical 681 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: like this than to, you know, have a profile disappear. 682 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: Line, push something and have it go. 683 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: And I think what I wrote about meeting Judy Bloom 684 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 2: in my book and I got to interview her during 685 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: literally the height of beer Gate, and what had happened 686 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: right before I walked into that interview was I got 687 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel 688 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 2: that I was interviewing Judy Bloom, and they you know, 689 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: were saying horrible things to me up in my face. 690 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk 691 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: into this interview with Judy and I swear things just 692 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 2: happened when they're supposed to do, and you see the 693 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 2: people that you needed because I felt so small in 694 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: that moment, and then getting to talk to her, you know, 695 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: this is a woman who had her books banned years 696 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 2: and years ago in like the seventies and the eighties, 697 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: and and she looked at me at the end and 698 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: she was like, do not let anyone stop you from 699 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: sharing your story, from writing it down, from putting it 700 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 2: out there. She's like, there's so much good to be done. 701 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: She was like, there were so many people early on 702 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 2: that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil, 703 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 2: or that I was doing something that was corrupting the U. 704 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 2: And she was like, but you have to know what 705 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: your the purpose is of something, and she was like, 706 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 2: you've got to put it out there. And so like 707 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 2: hearing that from like Judy Bloom, that's somebody that's a 708 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 2: little bit better to be listening to than Fox News. 709 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 1: I would say, well, yeah, or some insane person bombarding bathrooms. 710 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: It's so gross. It's so gross, But you know what 711 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: is is wild to me, And I think this is 712 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: something people miss again because you know, they have to 713 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: create clickbait and rage in some ways, so they have 714 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: to make everyone afraid of everyone. And there's no way 715 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: that seeing you exists in the world and be happy 716 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: is going to turn some sisc hid trams. But what 717 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: I know to be true is that a four year 718 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: old who does what you did and says to your mom, 719 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: God made a mistake, I'm in the wrong body could 720 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy 721 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: and that they're going to be okay someday. Yes, And 722 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: that to me feels like such an important thing in 723 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: the world to just make sure that people don't feel alone. 724 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 2: Right. And I've now what's been fascinating since talking about 725 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: that moment with my mom, Like so many people, even 726 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 2: in the industry, have like come to me and been like, hey, 727 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: my kid is you know going through this or And 728 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: it gives people permission to you know, have conversations and 729 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 2: to like get to the bottom of things in a 730 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 2: way that I think there was so much shame about before, 731 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 2: and I even told my family, I was like, I 732 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 2: didn't paint us as these like picture perfect people, because 733 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: we aren't and that's not what our family is. But 734 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that 735 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: the fact that we all still love each other and 736 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 2: I feel so supportive by them is actually way more 737 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture. 738 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the hardest things 739 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: about being a human in the public eye is that 740 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: you very rarely get to go through something and process 741 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: it and then talk about it when it's done. You 742 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: kind of have to process in real time out loud, 743 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: and I think that can be very toxic because then 744 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: your life gets treated like it's a TV show or 745 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: a storyline, and you're like. 746 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 2: No, this is happening to me, and it feels like 747 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 2: it will never change. I now feel really removed from 748 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 2: certain ideas that were made about me, like even being 749 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 2: the trans beer girl, and now years later, I'm like, oh, 750 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 2: I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to 751 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 2: do with that. And I thought that was going to 752 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 2: be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not. 753 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: But it's not, And I think It's beautiful to see 754 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: you go through certain things publicly process them and then 755 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: be able to reflect. But I love that some of 756 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: the stuff about you and your family, you've been able 757 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: to do both. You've been able to do the real time, 758 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: but you've also been able to take us in the 759 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: book on this journey backwards and yeah, you've been honest 760 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: about it. And I think honesty actually as a reader 761 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for 762 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: other families. 763 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think you can tell when some especially if 764 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 2: you're like reading something of someone's like, you can tell 765 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 2: if how it's being spun as far as like, and 766 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be as factual as 767 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 2: I can with like how these moments went down, so 768 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 2: that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them. 769 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: And then there are moments where I really get quite 770 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 2: emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling 771 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 2: mentally versus like what was actually, you know, happening in 772 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 2: the world around me. And a lot of that I 773 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: think in the book kind of slowed where I went 774 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 2: in tod Ayahuasca in Peru and I wrote about you 775 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: know this sort of like I wanted this it to 776 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 2: be this quick fix and what it really did was 777 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 2: it like started something in myself that I was gonna 778 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 2: end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the 779 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: things that I found while I was down there on 780 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 2: that's weird to call it a drug. It really feels 781 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: more like a medicine. It's a medicine. Yes, would you 782 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 2: ever do aahuasca have? Oh? Wow? Okay, we I don't 783 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 2: even know if we've talked about I haven't. Oh, we 784 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 2: need to. And it's It's also funny because I think 785 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 2: like when I told people that I was going down 786 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: there to do that, there was either certain people were like, 787 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 2: that's amazing, I've always wanted to do that, tell me everything. 788 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 2: And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable 789 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 2: by the idea of like doing something a different kind 790 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 2: of way. And that was like my work in progress 791 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 2: was to try it in a way that was not 792 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 2: offered to me as a young person or in my 793 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 2: early years, Like just you know if when when really 794 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 2: hits the fan doing in a different way, well, I 795 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 2: think a lot of. 796 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: People are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why 797 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: so many people are afraid of trans people, because you 798 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: challenge boundary and binary and you say, there's a more 799 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,959 Speaker 1: expansive way to be a human. You know, our friend 800 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: Aloke talks about this all the time, that the freedom 801 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying 802 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: to people that don't feel free in their own lives. 803 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: And for me, you know, ten years ago, when I 804 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 1: had this, like deeply prepared for you know, therapy involved 805 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: all the things experience. It was part of a larger 806 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: process of how do I begin to not be stuck 807 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: in this way of thinking? How do I begin to 808 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are 809 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: probably here but that I'm not seeing right. And I 810 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: think when you can be well researched and safe and 811 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: obviously you know. 812 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 2: Ready, you're ready when in whatever way ready can feel, 813 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 2: because it doesn't always you know, you won't feel one 814 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 2: hundred percent ready. 815 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: But sure, But I think that's true for anything. And 816 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: when something calls to you when you're when claiming who 817 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: you are out loud, calls to you when when saying 818 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, I built this whole life and I checked 819 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: off everything on my list like a good girl, and 820 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: I really don't like it. And I think maybe I 821 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: deserve to like my life, that I learned a few 822 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: years ago is a radical act, yes, And I think 823 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really 824 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: will shot on you for it. But some people will 825 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: also walk up and hug you and say you saved 826 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: my life, and that makes it worth it. I just 827 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: wish the Internet was less prone to sitting on people. 828 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 2: I sometimes I forget because I was, you know, fourteen, 829 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 2: the only like gay person out at my high school. 830 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,439 Speaker 2: Like I forget that it is there are so many 831 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 2: adults that are still grappling with these decisions, that are 832 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 2: living these life, have children, have you know, jobs that 833 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 2: like that. They are trying to make the most difficult 834 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 2: decision to be themselves possible. And I think I have 835 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 2: to always remember that it's not always as easier available 836 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 2: to people as someone like me who was really privileged 837 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 2: to although my family was conservative and Catholic, like I 838 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 2: didn't get thrown out of the house, and I found 839 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 2: these pockets of community like in theater, where like some 840 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 2: people don't have those places to like see gay people thriving. Yeah, 841 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 2: so the Internet is really good in that way because 842 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 2: you know, people get to watch things like this. 843 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: But I. 844 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 2: Think that it's I don't know. This book coming out 845 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,919 Speaker 2: in twenty five is crazy because it's a radical act. Yes, 846 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: but and even when it was decided they would come out, 847 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 2: we didn't know who the president was going to be, 848 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 2: We didn't know what trans legislation was going to look like. 849 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 2: And so I have to trust that this is the 850 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 2: right time. And I don't want to become a poster 851 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 2: child again, like how that felt like it went down 852 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. But I feel charged up in 853 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 2: a really good way, which is yummy. How when do 854 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 2: you feel the most, like when you're feeling like really exhausted. 855 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 2: How long does it take you to get back into 856 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,320 Speaker 2: like progress mode, or when you've like had a big 857 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 2: like what feels like maybe a failure, or when you 858 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 2: know something doesn't go your way that you've been working 859 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 2: so hard towards. How how long does it take you 860 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 2: to bounce back? And then when do you know that 861 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 2: you're ready? 862 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,919 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's sort of a case 863 00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: by case thing, something that I have learned monitor for myself. 864 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: As you said earlier, you went, oh, look at me, 865 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me 866 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: and apologizing for it when I find myself so wounded 867 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: by negativity that I'm figuring out how to answer for it. 868 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 1: When you know, the next time I have a MIC, 869 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to figure out how to gently address. 870 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: Then I know I need a beat before you know, 871 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: I see it. I don't need to explain everything to everyone. 872 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: And it's a weird thing because the Internet will critique 873 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: you if you don't, and then if you do, they 874 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: critique you for oversharing, and no matter what you do, 875 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: you can't get it right. And so I have to 876 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: take a breath and say, this is not a normal 877 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: human experience for there to be one of us and 878 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: multimillions of people talking at us all the time. Yeah, 879 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: So if I know that, how can I then try 880 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: to use it for good? Remind myself that it's also 881 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: not my real life, and be in my life as 882 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: much as I can, and that even when I can 883 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good 884 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity right, not 885 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,840 Speaker 1: for what something looks like. 886 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 2: And is Ashland the one that helps you take a 887 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 2: beat and like figure out what it is you are 888 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 2: called to say or what your you know, real opinion 889 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 2: is on certain things before you share that public like 890 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 2: who is who's the because for me it is a 891 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 2: lot of lily, it's my life, coach Morey, it's me 892 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,399 Speaker 2: and a local couple all the time. You know, there 893 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 2: are those people do you have, like who do you 894 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 2: find yourself in those tough situations? 895 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: Going to and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. 896 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: What I think I have had to come to terms 897 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: with having real, joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in 898 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,879 Speaker 1: my life is that I have actually done so much 899 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: by myself for so long. I tend to show up 900 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: for other people, but I very rarely ask people to 901 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: show up for me. And I am learning to ask. 902 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: I am learning that I don't have to do it 903 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: all by myself. I am learning to call my you know, 904 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: wonderful coven of brilliant women and just say, like, what 905 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: the fuck are we going to do with this? 906 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,760 Speaker 2: I will say, I feel like there's so many people 907 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,280 Speaker 2: in this world that have to find every other opinion 908 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 2: with their own before they conform theirs, And so it 909 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 2: is kind of iconic in a way that you can 910 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 2: do things independently. But I will say the fact that 911 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 2: you have that like this like arsenal of incredible humans 912 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 2: to tap into, you should use it. 913 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm working on that. And it feels nice 914 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: to not have so much weight on my shoulders all 915 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: the time. I I have a question for you, because look, 916 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: we're all obviously navigating our lives. But one of the 917 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: things that I feel excited about for you as your 918 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 1: friend is as you kind of name and claim all 919 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: your power. I feel like you're also in this fun 920 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,799 Speaker 1: moment of starting to figure out who's going to pour 921 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: into your cup. And and it's different for you. You know, 922 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: you talked about being you know, a young out gay 923 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: and then having to really come to terms with the 924 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually 925 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 1: I'm actually this woman yes that I've always felt in me. 926 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,959 Speaker 1: How how does that experience shift how you date? 927 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god, because you're also so public. Yes, but 928 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 2: I will think about this tall glass of water, because 929 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 2: needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in 930 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 2: the public eye, is attracted to trans women, is comfortable 931 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 2: with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that 932 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to put a relationship on blast, but there 933 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 2: is a chance whether I speak or not that aspects 934 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,399 Speaker 2: of their life could be affected by what I'm doing 935 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 2: and saying. So it almost has to be someone who 936 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 2: has like a kink for like an oversharing trans woman. 937 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,799 Speaker 2: But like what I the most important thing is that 938 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 2: I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts 939 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 2: is ashamed to be with me. And because what I 940 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 2: have done so well is like start to let go 941 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 2: of the shame that I have around who I am. 942 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 2: So what would be the worst case scenario is me 943 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 2: attaching myself to someone else who then I start changing 944 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 2: myself based on how they're reflecting back to me and 945 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,400 Speaker 2: what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to 946 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 2: me about myself. And so I really think it's going 947 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 2: to be so I actually it's a hot take, but 948 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 2: I would like it to be someone that has something 949 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 2: to do either with our industry or is in the 950 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 2: public eye already, so that like if I was with 951 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 2: this like doctor that you know there doesn't get rocked 952 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 2: on the daily mail because like there's just things. 953 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 1: And maybe baptize someone in the public life fire. 954 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,799 Speaker 2: I get that, yes, And so in a way there 955 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,400 Speaker 2: would be some comfort in knowing, like, oh, this person 956 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 2: has their own thing going on as well, But I 957 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 2: think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive. I 958 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 2: find it so like, what if I'm like out on 959 00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 2: a date with someone and they're talking about all the 960 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 2: things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh, 961 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,520 Speaker 2: this is someone who has like like dreams and ambitions 962 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 2: just the way that I am. So they're not gonna 963 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,840 Speaker 2: if I come in, you know, I walk into the 964 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 2: house one day and I'm like, I want to do this, this, 965 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 2: this and this that. They're like, WHOA like? I think 966 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 2: I want like a yes human. And I've really I've 967 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,839 Speaker 2: tried the hookup thing. I've found it to be really true. 968 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 2: La Is Honey, it's not what I mean. 969 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: You've tried the hookup. 970 00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 2: I've tried the casual whether it's I mean, so I'm 971 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,000 Speaker 2: so crazy, I'm so really weird. I've actually I only 972 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 2: have Riyah. I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just 973 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:41,399 Speaker 2: because it hasn't yielded the greatest results. But I think 974 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,759 Speaker 2: there what's the word, oh, demi sexual? I think maybe 975 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,239 Speaker 2: chapel Rone was talking about in an interview about what 976 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 2: I like is I need to be emotionally connected with 977 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,959 Speaker 2: someone beforehand, and especially I think being trans, I feel 978 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 2: really protective over my body and the fact that there's 979 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 2: still so many things changing with it, and I want 980 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 2: it to be someone that I like, Like, it is 981 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:08,160 Speaker 2: hard for me to get to a place where I'm 982 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 2: like ready to like take my makeup off and like, 983 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 2: god rude. I was thinking about you know, oh, someone 984 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 2: was talking about like shower sex recently, and I was like, Okay, 985 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 2: that's my worst nightmare because I was like, not only 986 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 2: are the fake lashes you know they're coming off, but 987 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,719 Speaker 2: like that is really it's such a vulnerable state to 988 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,760 Speaker 2: be in. But I really hope that it's with someone 989 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 2: and I like older. I've always liked a mature soul, 990 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 2: But I hope it's with someone who is proud to 991 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,239 Speaker 2: be with the trans person and is and who gets 992 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,439 Speaker 2: a kick out of whatever it is that I'm doing 993 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 2: or want to do. Yeah, and I want to be 994 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 2: the same with them. 995 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: I love that. 996 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, you got to think about I'm 997 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:59,759 Speaker 2: looking for like twenty eight to fifty eight. Mask by 998 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,320 Speaker 2: actual vibe feels gummy, you know, kind of like daddy, 999 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 2: but also you know, can be like soft as well. 1000 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,640 Speaker 2: Think on it. You've got you've got a pool of queers. 1001 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,200 Speaker 1: Now, oh, I'm gonna really, I'm gonna think. 1002 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 2: And the other thing I used to did gay men, 1003 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,239 Speaker 2: and they were so much better than straight guys. I 1004 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,279 Speaker 2: had no idea what I was missing and like or 1005 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 2: what that I had in that what I ended up 1006 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 2: getting was not as good as I thought it was 1007 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 2: going to be. And I have an essay called the 1008 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,319 Speaker 2: Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about, you know, 1009 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 2: just like what it felt like to have like the 1010 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,319 Speaker 2: straight male gaze on me for the first time, and 1011 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 2: not the gaze, but the gaze, and I thought it 1012 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,839 Speaker 2: was going to feel so much better than it did. 1013 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:51,560 Speaker 2: It was. It was such a an empty confidence that 1014 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 2: came from it. And you know, it can feel good sometimes, 1015 00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 2: but it doesn't make me feel as good as like 1016 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 2: when a girl's hyping me up and know in the 1017 00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,680 Speaker 2: bathroom it or you know, a phone call with Lily, 1018 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 2: Like it's interesting to now I've I've kind of gotten 1019 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 2: to look at life on both sides, like Joni Mitchell. Yeah, 1020 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 2: and I love that I can see like the perks 1021 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,920 Speaker 2: of living life as a gay man versus as a woman. 1022 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,839 Speaker 2: What the how the queer community treats you depending on 1023 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 2: what gender you are, you know, like how women treat you. 1024 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,359 Speaker 2: Oh and that changed a lot and it's still, you know, 1025 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 2: evolving in something that I feel, I hope does not 1026 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 2: digress because I feel like I have really taken the 1027 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,400 Speaker 2: not a back seat at all, like almost like the 1028 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:48,560 Speaker 2: passenger seat to the driver in learning from other gals. Yeah, 1029 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,640 Speaker 2: what do you feel like you're learning? I think I'm 1030 00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 2: learning that not all like I think I was. It 1031 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,279 Speaker 2: felt for a long time like it was CIS women 1032 00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,560 Speaker 2: versus trans women, And I'm realizing there's a lot of 1033 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 2: the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there 1034 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 2: are a lot of CIS women who do not do 1035 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,480 Speaker 2: not see eye to eye on things as well. In 1036 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 2: that to me gave me permission to not look at 1037 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 2: us as these two different categories of people, but actually 1038 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 2: see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism 1039 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,960 Speaker 2: and knowing that, like even I'm watching the White Lotus 1040 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 2: right now, and it's so interesting, like when you've got 1041 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,360 Speaker 2: like a we're looking at these are you have you 1042 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 2: watched it yet? Like a friend group of women who 1043 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:40,200 Speaker 2: maybe have different political beliefs, and how that shifts, you know, 1044 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:47,680 Speaker 2: the conversations and the judgments, and I think that I 1045 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 2: now have less of a desire to be accepted by 1046 00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 2: every single woman, and it's more of a desire to 1047 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 2: be respect did by those that I deeply respect. Yes, yes, yeah, 1048 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 2: and a lot of And I will say, like the 1049 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,360 Speaker 2: gals that I've loved and my role models growing up, 1050 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,240 Speaker 2: like now, some of which are like friends, and and 1051 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 2: that is what a gift like that is has helped 1052 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 2: show me that I I'm the kind of gal that 1053 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,680 Speaker 2: I I loved growing up and that I would continue 1054 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:25,160 Speaker 2: wanting to be. 1055 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,400 Speaker 1: I love that for you, Love, You're the gal you 1056 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: loved growing up. 1057 00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 2: I'm so the city I've been watching so much of 1058 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 2: and like I you know, there's this like fear I 1059 00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 2: think as a trans person that you are you know, 1060 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,440 Speaker 2: made out to be a caricature, or that you're taking 1061 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,920 Speaker 2: on aspects of of you know, other women or fictional women. 1062 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 2: And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh, 1063 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 2: I love Audrey Heppern and I love her style, but 1064 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,880 Speaker 2: I don't want it to seem like I'm like cosplaying 1065 00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,040 Speaker 2: as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City, 1066 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,160 Speaker 2: and you know, I feel so connected to her as 1067 00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 2: a character, but I don't want it to seem like 1068 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,240 Speaker 2: that's what I'm like trying to be. And then I realize, like, 1069 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,440 Speaker 2: oh no, that's just You're seeing things, whether it's in 1070 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 2: a character or in a human or in a celebrity, 1071 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,120 Speaker 2: that you see within yourself and that have already existed. 1072 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 2: And it's not that they're things that I'm putting on, 1073 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,200 Speaker 2: but it's things that I see in others that I 1074 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,880 Speaker 2: love and that I want to make even a little 1075 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:23,920 Speaker 2: brighter within me. 1076 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,000 Speaker 1: One of the things you identify with, Yes, that you 1077 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,720 Speaker 1: feel represented by, that you feel that make you feel seen. 1078 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, are what girl on Sex and City? Are you? 1079 00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 1: I don't know? Probably, I mean, let's be honest, I'm 1080 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,400 Speaker 1: I think people probably would have thought Carrie. But I 1081 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,919 Speaker 1: think I'm a little more Miranda. My dad still can't 1082 00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,280 Speaker 1: believe I'm not a lawyer. He's like, you love to argue, 1083 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,120 Speaker 1: you love to fight for justice. 1084 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,200 Speaker 2: I see some Miranda there. I also think, like you 1085 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 2: old an earnestness and an innocence still that is kind 1086 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 2: of it gives. 1087 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,520 Speaker 1: You Charlotte a ya a sweet angel. 1088 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,920 Speaker 2: Yes, because that is such a rarity and I like 1089 01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,320 Speaker 2: that is honestly, when I think of our group of 1090 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 2: friends and those that we hang out with, like, there 1091 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 2: is that innocence that I love. We talked about it 1092 01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 2: last last year on the pod of like you know, 1093 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,880 Speaker 2: finding people that have Oh, and I loved. Jane Fonda 1094 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,280 Speaker 2: recently dd a podcast interview where she talked about optimism 1095 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 2: versus hope. Yes, and so with Kerrie Washington. 1096 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Yes, it was so good I. 1097 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Now because I feel like for so long I've been 1098 01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 2: like I am an you know, eternal optimist, and now 1099 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:36,080 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful. 1100 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:36,720 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful. 1101 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,040 Speaker 2: I'm still so hopeful. 1102 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:46,880 Speaker 1: Is that going into this crazy year where literally our 1103 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 1: rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost? 1104 01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: But your book is coming out? Yes, it's the horrors 1105 01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,720 Speaker 1: and the joy yep. Is it hope that feels like 1106 01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,640 Speaker 1: you're work in progress right now? Or is it something 1107 01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:00,480 Speaker 1: complete different? 1108 01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's actually I think it's a balance of realism 1109 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,480 Speaker 2: versus hope. And for I think for a long time 1110 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 2: I lived I'm a zero to one hundred person, one 1111 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 2: hundred percent just hopeful in a way that I got 1112 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,680 Speaker 2: burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration 1113 01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 2: what could happen, or the realities of what it meant 1114 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,200 Speaker 2: to be trans in America, or the realities of living 1115 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 2: in the public eye. I always assumed the best of everyone, yeah, 1116 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,920 Speaker 2: even the media, and it has it's bitten me enough 1117 01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,720 Speaker 2: for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like. 1118 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 2: And so I'm a little more cautious. But the hope 1119 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 2: is that I can exist in a place where it's 1120 01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,440 Speaker 2: the best case scenario and that the good things are possible, 1121 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,720 Speaker 2: and that my you know, vision board can come true. 1122 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,640 Speaker 2: And then it's the lack of when those things don't 1123 01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,360 Speaker 2: happen or can't happen because of the year that we're 1124 01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 2: living in or the government that we have, or whatever 1125 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,240 Speaker 2: that might be, that I have a plan B, C 1126 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 2: and D that can still you know, get me through 1127 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 2: and that I can still live a full life hopefully. 1128 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:11,840 Speaker 2: But I'm not going to go to Plan B, C 1129 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:16,080 Speaker 2: or D before I try Plan A and And I 1130 01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,600 Speaker 2: think that has been really crucial, Like even this year, 1131 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:21,720 Speaker 2: I don't have a vision. I'm always a vision board girl. 1132 01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 2: I've like I've always been able to manifest like magical things, 1133 01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 2: but it feels so out of the ordinary right now 1134 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,000 Speaker 2: that I have forced myself to like want certain things, 1135 01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,920 Speaker 2: but I am approaching every single like opportunity. I'm like, 1136 01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,800 Speaker 2: does this help me become a Broadway diva? I love that. 1137 01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:43,720 Speaker 2: That's my vision board for this year is that question. 1138 01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,680 Speaker 2: And there's like hope within that, and I think so 1139 01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,680 Speaker 2: I will say, oh yes, thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope 1140 01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:52,280 Speaker 2: is my work in progress right now. 1141 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: I love it. 1142 01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's yours right now? 1143 01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,920 Speaker 1: You give me a lot of hope. I think slowing 1144 01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,880 Speaker 1: down it's really hard for me. 1145 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:03,400 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but I am. 1146 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:10,680 Speaker 1: I am just so ready for slow tender. 1147 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,120 Speaker 2: We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere. We want 1148 01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,240 Speaker 2: to be some places and giving one hundred percent. 1149 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,960 Speaker 1: Oh I love you, oh so proud of you.