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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: All right, this is a special holiday edition of Breaking Points.

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Speaker 4: We're coming to you from the past.

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Speaker 3: We have no idea what is going on in the

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Speaker 3: world in which you are currently living.

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Speaker 4: We are recording this.

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Speaker 3: Way back in the middle to early month of December,

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Speaker 3: year of our Lord, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 4: I hope everything is going well for you.

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Speaker 3: Today we're going to be joined by journalists Emily Joshinski.

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Speaker 4: Emily, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 5: To be clear, this is part one of a series

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Speaker 5: we're doing where Ryan is going to interview me and

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Speaker 5: then I'm going to turn it back over to Ryan,

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Speaker 5: and we're going to interview Ryan.

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Speaker 6: Ryan appears to have googled me in preparation for.

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Speaker 5: This, and I did not do him the same courtesy

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Speaker 5: because I probably googled you before. I don't know, I'm

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Speaker 5: sure when we first started hosting, I'm sure I was like,

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Speaker 5: isn't that the guy who beat up Jesse Waters.

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Speaker 3: Actually, right around the time that I was fighting with

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Speaker 3: Jesse Waters is when you were fighting with the big

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ lobby, which is what we're going to get into first.

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Speaker 3: And then I do want to, you know, hear about

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Speaker 3: more of like what got you into this world? But

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Speaker 3: I think this is actually a good place to start.

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Speaker 3: So we do have an actual element that I googled.

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Speaker 3: There's a whole bunch, but I just grabbed one from

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Speaker 3: Raw Story. So the headline here and this is the

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Speaker 3: year twenty fifteen. I love the photo that adorns this.

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Speaker 3: If you're only listening to this, you need to go

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Speaker 3: find the video because there's a picture of two women

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Speaker 3: making out next to the headline. College group hosting Rick

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Speaker 3: Stands Forum demands quote sensitivity training to teach gay's quote

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Speaker 3: respect and so this came from a GW hatchet article

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Speaker 3: while Emily was the.

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Speaker 4: At the at George Washington University and was.

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Speaker 3: The head is that Right of Young Americans found hy

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Speaker 3: af right. This is the Buckley Organization, right William William

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Speaker 3: Buckley created this like youth organization, Young Americans Future or

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Speaker 3: something like that.

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Speaker 6: It's confusing. I can get a note if you want.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, so yeah, that's that's what that's what I

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Speaker 4: want to do.

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Speaker 3: And so then GW mandated that they were going to

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Speaker 3: do like you know, DEI stuff like sensitivity, sensitivity training

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Speaker 3: particularly I think it was I think this one correctly wrong, particularly.

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Speaker 4: Around trans issues.

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Speaker 3: Pronounce pronouns, and you were quoted as saying, forget it,

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Speaker 3: we don't, we don't want to do this. And interesting

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Speaker 3: in the raw story article they have the College Republican

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Speaker 3: throwing you under the bus.

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Speaker 6: Oh, of course that's what always happens.

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Speaker 3: So the head of the College Republican says, look, it's

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Speaker 3: just a little just a little train, that little sensitivity training.

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Speaker 4: That's how it used to be so sensitive.

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Speaker 6: That's how it used to be. All right, So I've

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Speaker 6: been vindicated.

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Speaker 3: So you're a so that So when'd you graduate high school,

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Speaker 3: so twenty even, so twenty eleven, so you start sor year,

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Speaker 3: so this is your senior.

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Speaker 4: Year of college. So what is what is this Buckley Group?

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Speaker 3: And then we're going to get into the controversy because

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Speaker 3: it became like a little national thing. You pay, you

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Speaker 3: pay him like a punching bag for the kind of

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Speaker 3: left wing raw story huff Post.

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Speaker 4: I wonder ifuff Post did anything on you.

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Speaker 5: If I remember quickly, I think huff Post did, but

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Speaker 5: you know it was. It's actually very interesting and I

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Speaker 5: think telling story it's a little thing, but like the

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Speaker 5: dust up kind of it brings in a lot of

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Speaker 5: different I don't know, it does bring in a lot

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Speaker 5: of different trends that started to pop up, especially after

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Speaker 5: twenty fifteen. But basically in college, I was a president

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Speaker 5: of the YAFF chapter that's Young America's Foundation, which had

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Speaker 5: just merged in twenty twelve with Young Americans for Freedom,

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Speaker 5: which is the Buckley Group that was created with the

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Speaker 5: Sharon Statement in nineteen sixty at the Buckley Estate. And

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Speaker 5: Ronald Reagan kind of comes out of Young Americans for

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Speaker 5: Freedom circles, who's you know, not a Young American of course,

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Speaker 5: but that was part of the Reagan Revolution, guys like

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Speaker 5: Roger Stone affiliated with YAFF and all of that.

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Speaker 6: But when I got to.

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Speaker 5: College, you know, that was the conservative group on campus

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Speaker 5: that I got involved with. And this is the LGBT

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Speaker 5: sensitivity training story is a funny one because it was

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Speaker 5: I don't know, like a snow day, if I'm remember incorrectly,

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Speaker 5: And I got a call from the student newspaper, the Hatchet, and.

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Speaker 4: That's your job in coming.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And they asked, does GW.

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Speaker 5: YAFF oppose this bill that the student Association passed like

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Speaker 5: last night that mandates sensitivity training. And it was such

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Speaker 5: a trap because I hadn't given any thought to the

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Speaker 5: question of the Student Association like sensitivity training bill. And

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Speaker 5: I think actually what they asked is if we would

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Speaker 5: be requesting a religious exemption to the thing, and I

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Speaker 5: think the quote that I.

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Speaker 6: Have in The Hatchet is like, well, I'm sure we

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Speaker 6: would be, because it.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't sound very tolerant of other people's religious beliefs. Because

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Speaker 5: the sensitivity training was going to for student leaders of

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Speaker 5: student groups, it wasn't a huge deal, but it didn't

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Speaker 5: mandate that you go to preferred pronoun sensitivity training.

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Speaker 4: We have the receipts.

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Speaker 3: Right here, you said, mandated training is not really being

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Speaker 3: very tolerant of all religious beliefs. The way that people

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Speaker 3: who are deeply Christian behave is for a reason, and

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Speaker 3: if you're training them to change that behavior, there's obviously

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Speaker 3: a problem with that. So they were going to have

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Speaker 3: every student just if you were the.

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Speaker 6: Leader of a student group.

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Speaker 5: So if you're the head of a YEAF chapter or

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Speaker 5: even you know, the Muslim student group, like you all

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Speaker 5: would have had.

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Speaker 6: To do it.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Let me see if I can find the Republican one,

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Speaker 3: he said, regardless of this is Alex Pollock. What's he

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Speaker 3: up to now he's the head of the College Republicans

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Speaker 3: at GW. He's got to be like lobbyists or something by.

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Speaker 6: Now I think he works in publishing.

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Speaker 4: Wow, flamed out double track.

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Speaker 3: College Democrats and college Republicans like college democrats less. So

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Speaker 3: now it's there, they're more act TAVISTI. College Republicans certainly

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Speaker 3: to this day like that. Those those are people who

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Speaker 3: are just gunning for internships on the hill and trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out a way to run for Congress, and.

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Speaker 5: Right and and YAF gets by the way, in disclosure

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Speaker 5: I'm actually on the board of directors at YAFF because

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Speaker 5: that was my first job out of college.

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Speaker 6: I was a spokesperson there, and.

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Speaker 5: You know, oh a lot to them because as a

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Speaker 5: nonprofit group, you know, I got a lot of like experience,

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Speaker 5: you went to conferences, and they were the group that

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Speaker 5: paid for rick Anntorm to come to our campus and

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Speaker 5: it was a very, very very interesting experience having rick

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Speaker 5: Antorm come.

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Speaker 6: But it was.

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Speaker 5: The reason that that groups like Yeah are different from

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Speaker 5: College Republicans is because there's that sort of populist element

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Speaker 5: to it. And that's the forgotten part of the Reagan

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Speaker 5: Revolution is the forgotten part of Buckleyism. So it was

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Speaker 5: a revolution against the establishment Republican Party the time, against

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Speaker 5: Gerald Ford. That's what it was against. And so that's

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Speaker 5: what I've always liked about like YEAFF as a.

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Speaker 6: Conservative student group.

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Speaker 5: So anyway, yes, they were trying to mandate sensitivity training.

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Speaker 6: I was like, m so.

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Speaker 3: Alex Pollock said, quote, regardless of this is the College

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Speaker 3: Republicans head, regardless of reviews on LGBT people.

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Speaker 4: LGBT people exist.

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Speaker 3: He said, it should be mandatory from a sensitivity perspective,

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Speaker 3: which is not definitely not the Republican position anymore elephant

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Speaker 3: in the zoom and so so how did that so

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Speaker 3: how did how did that experience of becoming a momentary

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Speaker 3: kind of national figure in the sense that you're it's

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Speaker 3: got to you know. It's not as if like you

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Speaker 3: were a household name or anything, but like if you're

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Speaker 3: a college senior and all of a sudden your name

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Speaker 3: is in like national publications with people hating on you.

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Speaker 4: Was what was that like? And how did that shape

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Speaker 4: your who you are now?

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Speaker 3: Is this origin story stuff or were you this was

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Speaker 3: just like you were on the same trajectory Either way.

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Speaker 6: No, this is absolutely origent story stuff.

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Speaker 5: I had a job already lined up for when I

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Speaker 5: was graduating at a Republican consulting firm that was going

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Speaker 5: to be doing like oppo research, and I ended up

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Speaker 5: working at YAFF instead because after this happened, they were like, whoa,

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Speaker 5: things on campus are actually even crazier than we had

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Speaker 5: quite realized. Come work for us and do some PR stuff.

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Speaker 5: So that was my first job, and I took it

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Speaker 5: because I was very interested in media. I always wanted

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Speaker 5: to be a writer, and this job would let me

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Speaker 5: write columns and do that sort of thing. But it

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Speaker 5: was horrible, truly it was horrible. You know, they wanted

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Speaker 5: me to go on Fox News. I said no, and

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Speaker 5: of course after that, like ended up you doing a

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Speaker 5: decent amount of Fox News until about five years ago

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Speaker 5: when we started hosting together tapered off. But it was

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Speaker 5: it was truly horrible. I had people yell at me

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Speaker 5: from across the street. I went on spring break like

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Speaker 5: a student. Yeah, I went on with my friends. By

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Speaker 5: the way, I have many gay friends at GW who

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Speaker 5: were like, WHOA, what the hell you're the allied and

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Speaker 5: pride group on campus.

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Speaker 6: I would have to go look this up.

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Speaker 5: But they put out a statement, if I remember correctly,

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Speaker 5: that said we had committed an act of violence against

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Speaker 5: the transgender community.

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Speaker 4: I think they called you a hate group or something.

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Speaker 5: They tried to get us pushed off campus, literally tried

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Speaker 5: to get us pushed off campus. I think people were

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Speaker 5: agitated for us to get suspended. And this is again

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Speaker 5: not because we said anything other than we think that

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Speaker 5: mandatory sensitivity training on perfect pronouns is not tolerant.

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Speaker 6: That was the statement.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, they tried to push off campus for that,

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Speaker 5: and it was very like proto woke. I guess you

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Speaker 5: would say, but it was horrible. It was genuinely horrible,

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Speaker 5: and a lot of people, I'm sure there are a

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Speaker 5: lot of people on the right who would of that,

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Speaker 5: But for me, I hated it and I don't have

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Speaker 5: like literal PTSD from it, but thinking about it feels

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Speaker 5: still really still I still feel kind of panicky, yeah,

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Speaker 5: because it was an early experience with a pylon, and

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Speaker 5: I've never been comfortable, you know, when you when you're

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Speaker 5: a journalist, even when you do a show like this,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's everyone's been on something you say gets

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Speaker 5: clipped or what, and it's horrible every time.

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Speaker 6: I hate it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, the headline.

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Speaker 3: Here's another headline, conservative club labeled quote cancer quote hate group,

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Speaker 3: yes for requesting to opt out of LGBT training.

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Speaker 6: Come on.

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Speaker 3: Interestingly, I just noticed that the original Hatchet article has

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Speaker 3: a list of corrections that is almost as long as

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Speaker 3: the article.

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Speaker 6: It's oh it doesn't actually yeah, oh that's awesome.

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Speaker 4: And one of them, And I wonder if this played

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Speaker 4: into the pilon.

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Speaker 3: It says the Hatchet incorrectly reported that the sensitivity trainings

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Speaker 3: would include information about sexual assault. The focus of the

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Speaker 3: trainings would be LGBT issues. We regret these errors. And

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Speaker 3: so it may have initially been reported that you also

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Speaker 3: wanted to opt out of sensitivity trainings around sexual assault,

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Speaker 3: which would but I mean clearly it was originally reported

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Speaker 3: that way, like that's why they had to correct it.

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Speaker 3: That would be even more egregious, probably to the public,

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Speaker 3: like how dare you?

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Speaker 4: How could you not? So I wonder if that played

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Speaker 4: a role. What really zip in the pile on.

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Speaker 5: What really started it was the Allied and Pride at

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Speaker 5: GW's statement and that started going viral on our campus circles.

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Speaker 6: Like Facebook was big back then.

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Speaker 5: And I think they yeah, they put out the statement

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Speaker 5: on Facebook, and when that happened, it was just everything

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Speaker 5: from their national media picked up on it, so like

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Speaker 5: raw storymever else picked up on it, and it became

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Speaker 5: a just a total nightmare.

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Speaker 6: We got like.

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Speaker 5: Hauled into a meeting with the student association. It was

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Speaker 5: it's origin story stuff. Just for the fact that this

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Speaker 5: was you know, I would say, the point of this

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Speaker 5: being mandatory and then having like a pretty I think

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Speaker 5: reasonable request to not have to go to a mandatory

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Speaker 5: like reprogramming training.

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Speaker 6: I feel like that was kind of reasonable.

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Speaker 5: Then you have the College Republicans throwing us under the bus,

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Speaker 5: and you have the ad and Pride group freaking out.

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Speaker 5: And this is about like three months before Bruce Jenner

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Speaker 5: became Caitlyn Jenner, and it's just all of the stuff

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Speaker 5: was happening in the spring of twenty fifteen. That was

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Speaker 5: pretty interesting because Trump was literally about to come down

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Speaker 5: the Golden escalator like a few months later.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, this is this is definitely an This is

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Speaker 3: definitely an interesting time. I could imagine some people coming

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Speaker 3: out of this with it with more of a more

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Speaker 3: of an ax to grind, Like you have a you know,

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Speaker 3: you're pretty firm and your culturally conservative politics, but I

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Speaker 3: haven't noticed you with any kind of hardcore like vendetta

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Speaker 3: and probably much more tolerant rhetoric than a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who have your same politics.

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Speaker 4: How did that come about?

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Speaker 5: I would yeah, it's kind of for me is the opposite,

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Speaker 5: because one of the things that one of the reasons

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Speaker 5: that it came to DC is I grew up like

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Speaker 5: in the woods in Wisconsin, not a super rural area,

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Speaker 5: kind of the exurbs of Milwaukee, but you know, my

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Speaker 5: my family definitely was like in the woods.

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Speaker 4: And could you see your neighbor or like, what was

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Speaker 4: your situation?

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Speaker 5: No, yeah, no, you can shoot on our property all that.

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Speaker 6: Good stuff, and.

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Speaker 4: We hopefully that means your neighbors were really far away.

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Speaker 5: Yes, well it's also just that even they have a

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Speaker 5: lot of woods, so they have a bunch of property.

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Speaker 5: And anyway, so all I was say, you can see

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Speaker 5: them now because all the trees are down. But anyway,

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Speaker 5: going on, going forward.

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Speaker 4: I grew up like why are the trees down?

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Speaker 6: What happened the cycle of the forest.

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Speaker 5: They're old and also my dad has just been like

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Speaker 5: deforesting and taking him down for.

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Speaker 6: Well because they're dead.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, anyway, I also good excuse to use the chainsaw.

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Speaker 5: But I grew up like hunting, fishing. My mom is

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Speaker 5: from a very rural area. My dad's from a very

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Speaker 5: blue collar background and going to church every Sunday. And

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Speaker 5: it was just like one of the reasons I came

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Speaker 5: here is that I was so frustrated by what I

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Speaker 5: was seeing on TV and in movies, just the way

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Speaker 5: that culture talked down to people.

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Speaker 6: I always felt like.

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Speaker 5: I just wanted to prove the point to elite that

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Speaker 5: these are decent people. I just am so annoyed by

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Speaker 5: this assumption that you are bad if you come from

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Speaker 5: a culturally conservative background for whatever reason. That has just always, really,

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Speaker 5: really really gotten under my skin.

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Speaker 6: And.

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Speaker 5: That's why I came here. And so I hate feeling misunderstood,

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Speaker 5: like it just drives me insane. And so I like

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Speaker 5: having conversations. And that's where I think I don't have

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Speaker 5: an axta grind. I just genuinely have a point to prove,

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Speaker 5: and I like having those those conversations, like I want

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Speaker 5: people to see that, you know, I might disagree and

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Speaker 5: really disagree on difficult stuff, but I don't hate anyone,

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Speaker 5: Like it's really the opposite, right, and that's just frustrating.

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Speaker 3: Were your parents conservative? When did you get a political awakening?

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Speaker 5: So my mom definitely is conservative. My dad votes for

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Speaker 5: both parties. He's a He worked for the state. He

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Speaker 5: was an engineer for the state of Wisconsin. His whole

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Speaker 5: career is retired now, but he was a public employee

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Speaker 5: union and so went through the kind of Scott Walker era.

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Speaker 5: I was funny to Scott Walker's president if you have now,

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Speaker 5: but you know they would really Yeah, my mom is

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Speaker 5: an HL for years at some big corporations like Johnson controls,

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Speaker 5: and they would argue about Walker and unions. She was

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Speaker 5: an HR and had to deal.

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Speaker 6: With a lot of that, so a little bit a

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Speaker 6: little bit of both.

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Speaker 5: My dad's Catholic when mom's Lutheran, so it was a

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Speaker 5: little bit of both. But for me, it was just

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Speaker 5: kind of this cultural It wasn't always like hardcore conservative.

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Speaker 5: And I don't think I'm you know, I'm not like

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Speaker 5: MAGA or Republican now. I just am kind of a

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Speaker 5: limited government, cultural conservative type person.

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Speaker 4: I pulled up another twenty thirteen article.

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Speaker 6: This is another Hatchart article.

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Speaker 3: Another hatchet article I'll read from this one, says sophomore

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Speaker 3: Emily Jashinsky said she grew up in a strict Lutheran

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Speaker 3: household and is also morally opposed to same sex marriage,

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Speaker 3: but after honing her political views as a libertarian, she

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Speaker 3: doesn't and she'll be doing well. We did the reason

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Speaker 3: debate already. She does not think the government should be

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Speaker 3: taking a stance on the issue at all. She will

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Speaker 3: not head to the Supreme Court this week or there

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Speaker 3: was going to be a protest around marriage equality, ruling

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Speaker 3: Republicans do not need to get caught up in social issues.

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Speaker 3: She said Jashinski, a member of the Young America's Foundation,

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Speaker 3: said she is inspired by new voices in the Republican Party.

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Speaker 3: They are more libertarian, like father and son, Ron and

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Speaker 3: Rand Paul. She called them the future of the GOP.

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Speaker 5: Amazing that seems so I can hopeful future, I can guarantee.

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Speaker 5: That was like a six month phase with libertarianism.

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Speaker 3: Although but the limited government that you still espouse is

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Speaker 3: But so this was hardcore libertarianism.

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Speaker 4: You were like, no, I mean, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Kind of it was becoming that. I mean the.

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Speaker 4: Sophomore year that's around when people try on libertarianism.

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Speaker 6: That's exactly right. Yeah, and it was. It was definitely

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Speaker 6: a short lived.

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Speaker 5: But the reason that I was attracted libertarians because I've

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Speaker 5: always been a populist and at the time Ron and

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Speaker 5: Rand Paul were popular, the Tea Party movement was populist.

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Speaker 5: And so the thing that I was wrong about and

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Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk was wrong about this at the time too.

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Speaker 5: I think I just came around a little earlier, was

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Speaker 5: that the Republican Party did need to get caught up

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Speaker 5: in social issues, not in the way.

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Speaker 6: That a lot of people, you know, wanted.

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Speaker 5: It to get caught up in social issues, and Rick

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Speaker 5: Sntorm is an interesting figure in this respect too. On

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Speaker 5: the one hand, was talking about Charles Murray's coming apart

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Speaker 5: and cultural elitism. Then on the other hand, was talking

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Speaker 5: about a pretty unappealing worldview that Americans were moving away

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Speaker 5: from that wouldn't fit on a populist platform. So anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: that was short lived. I don't think I've ever really

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Speaker 5: considered myself a libertarian. I still really like Rand Paul

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Speaker 5: because I think he is a populist. I like Ron

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Speaker 5: Paul because I think he's a populist. But at the

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Speaker 5: same time, you know, I am kind of an economic.

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Speaker 6: Populist in a way that they aren't. Like.

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Speaker 5: I believe in industrial policy and protectionism and all that

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Speaker 5: fun stuff.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, So Ron Paul ran in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: eight for president when you would have been what you're

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Speaker 3: graduating eleven?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I was in high school.

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Speaker 4: So was that kind of the first campaign you paid

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Speaker 4: serious attention to?

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Speaker 5: Or yeah, yeah, because I was in twenty four it

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Speaker 5: was twelve, or I'm sorry, it was eleven.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so that was definitely the first major one.

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Speaker 4: Did he do better in twenty twelve?

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember, Yeah, so he runs in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight to twenty twelve, he comes out this

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Speaker 3: is post Tea party.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he was almost mide he almost whin Iowa or

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Speaker 4: when Iowa.

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Speaker 6: Like he did incredibly well.

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Speaker 4: He was shocking the Republican establishment. Yep.

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Speaker 3: And the people who got behind him in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: I think ironically you could say many of them became

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Speaker 3: Trump supporters.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like Ron Paul.

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Speaker 6: Was the like, yeah, I know some of them.

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Speaker 4: He was the avatar for challenging the Republican establishment.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, yes, And so it.

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Speaker 3: It feels like people were more interested in challenging the

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Speaker 3: Republican establishment than whenever that person was saying yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: so that's why you're like, Okay, if it's going to

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Speaker 3: be Ron Paul that I'm going to learn about, libertarianism

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Speaker 3: is going to be Trump, I'm going to do this

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Speaker 3: other thing.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And after twenty twelve, Ron and Rand were treated as

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Speaker 5: the future of the Republican Party by the media. There

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Speaker 5: was that Time magazine cover that was like the Libertarian Moment,

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Speaker 5: if I'm remember incorrectly, and it was all the rage

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Speaker 5: and like young conservative circles like nobody wanted to be

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Speaker 5: connected to the santorums in young Republican circles, because there

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Speaker 5: was this sense pre Trump that the culture War was

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Speaker 5: dragging everybody down and to the extent that the pronoun

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Speaker 5: sensitivity training thing is origin story and lower. It's that

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Speaker 5: for me, that is an early point where I reversed

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Speaker 5: that twenty thirteen hatchet quote where I was like, oh no, actually,

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Speaker 5: the culture war is where this is like the big tent.

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Speaker 5: The culture War is the big tent. And I'd always

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Speaker 5: been more interested in the culture War than most people

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Speaker 5: who were like in coulege Republican circles. But that's you know,

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Speaker 5: to me, I was like, this is getting so wild

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Speaker 5: that kids are being chased off a campus for saying

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Speaker 5: like they're being called a hate group for saying they

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Speaker 5: didn't want to do a mandatory pronoun training.

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Speaker 6: Like this is getting a little crazy. These are getting weird.

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Speaker 4: And so then how long were you at YAF after college?

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Speaker 6: Almost two years?

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Speaker 5: Almost two years and my college job I was I'm

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Speaker 5: probably the longest American Enterprise institute in turn ever because

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Speaker 5: I worked for not in foreign policy. Although I would

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Speaker 5: be like standing in the lunch line behind Paul Wolfowitz.

447
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 4: Wild exactly Iraq War.

448
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, wild stuff.

449
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 5: But I worked for chrisino Off Summers, who is like

450
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 5: she was very favorable to Bernie in twenty sixteen, but

451
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 5: was at Ai writing about feminism. She wrote that, but

452
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 5: from in nineteen ninety four, w hoostole feminism?

453
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 6: And she wrote The War Against Boys?

454
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 5: And my job was to fact check the original War

455
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 5: against Boys, the footnotes and make sure the research hadn't changed.

456
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 5: And in fact, what I found often is that some

457
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 5: of these trends had gotten worse about young men in

458
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 5: schools and all of them.

459
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 4: When did the War Against Boys come out?

460
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 5: The original two thousand, two thousand, yeah, yeah, the re

461
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 5: release was twenty thirteen.

462
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: I think, how did Christina hoff Summer's shape shape your

463
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 3: politics working with her?

464
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 6: Yeah?

465
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 5: I mean, Christie's amazing. I just wrote in the Washington

466
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 5: Post this month about my experience working for her. She's amazing, Like,

467
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 5: she's brilliant, And it was for me more of like

468
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 5: an awakening along these same lines that I had. You know,

469
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 5: I felt it in my gut, but I didn't have

470
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 5: the language or the research or the experience.

471
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 6: I kind of back it up, which is this is

472
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 6: a person.

473
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 5: Who's eminently reasonable brilliant and had leftist critiques of the

474
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: feminist movement. When she was her courses were cross listed

475
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 5: in the women Studies department at Clark University I think

476
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 5: it was in Massachusetts in the early nineties, and she

477
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 5: had leftist critiques of the feminist movement, got kicked out

478
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 5: of the women's studies conferences and everything when she wrote

479
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 5: Who's Stole Feminism? And ended up at AI making it

480
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 5: I think a lot of the same like leftist critiques,

481
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 5: feminist critiques of the feminist movement in ways that aren't

482
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 5: easily categorized as like necessarily leftist or reactionary. But she

483
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 5: was so misunderstood and that I think I haven't even

484
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 5: thought about that until now. But like that I think

485
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 5: really resonates with me is that these elite distortions of

486
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 5: well intentioned people who are just trying to engage in conversation.

487
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: Who did steal feminism? Like what was the feminists? And

488
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 3: for what purpose? Like what's her? What's I haven't read that?

489
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 4: What's her?

490
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 5: That's where she h that's where she goes through some

491
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 5: of the statistics that the feminist movement has often relied

492
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 5: on that aren't great, Like so for example, overstating the

493
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 5: age gap, overstating the prevalence of domestic abuse and violence,

494
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 5: and in ways that further like victimize women. It's like

495
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 5: the learned helplessness, but applied to women in the feminist movement.

496
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 5: But also she was very early in saying that erasing

497
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 5: sex distinctions was going to hurt women's spaces, it was

498
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 5: going to undermine Title nine, it was going to create

499
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 5: serious problems.

500
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 6: She was very early on gamer Gates, which is funny.

501
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 5: I think I told the story before of like ending

502
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 5: up at a gamer Gate meetup while I was a

503
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 5: Christina intern at a bar on U Street here in

504
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 5: DC that got like a bunch of bomb threats called

505
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 5: in and it was all of these.

506
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 6: Gamer Gate people. Milo was there, who came from around

507
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 6: the country.

508
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: Like it was gamer Gate for people who like, if

509
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: you're under thirty, yeah, that's probably doesn't exist to you.

510
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's true.

511
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 5: It's seen as like Trump lures twenty fourteen lore, yeah,

512
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 5: twenty fourteen. It's it's sort of seen as like proto woke.

513
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 5: It was a bunch of men getting mad about the

514
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 5: feminization or the feministization of video games, and some of

515
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 5: them channeling that in really awful ways, and some of

516
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 5: them channeling it in ways that was just like stop

517
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 5: encroaching on our spaces, like we have to let some

518
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 5: stuff be for guys. And some of the feminization feministization

519
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 5: of the video games was like proto woke. But anyway, Yeah,

520
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 5: I was at that gamer game meet up and it

521
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 5: was like a.

522
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: Bus that as his origin story, he like saw the

523
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: energy around game or Gate.

524
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of angry young men here.

525
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 3: We could channel this into a publication and a presidential

526
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: campaign and a political movement.

527
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, and some of that went to.

528
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 5: Some of that energy went to Trump, some of it

529
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 5: went honestly to things like Charlottesville, and some of them

530
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 5: went to you know, just Jordan Peterson and early Jordan Peterson,

531
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 5: like some really good stuff. So yeah, but I was, like,

532
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 5: I say this respectfully, like in a party of like

533
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 5: sweaty basement dwellers who had traveled it was the worst

534
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 5: spilling party I've ever been to, who had traveled from

535
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 5: around the country and were so nervous and they didn't

536
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 5: have a lot of money, and they put everything into

537
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 5: getting to this meetup and it was like the highlight

538
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 5: of their year, and it was in a way. You know,

539
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 5: there's some of them who were clearly fringy and off,

540
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 5: but in a way it was like also some of.

541
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 6: Them were well intentioned and it was very kind of touching.

542
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 4: I don't know any of them talked to you or

543
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 4: were they all afraid of you.

544
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 5: They were afraid of the women, that is for sure,

545
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 5: but yeah, they were. They were really excited, and then

546
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: they were really excited when the leftists called them bomb

547
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 5: threats and they had to evacuate three times because it

548
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 5: made the street their renegades, right, exactly right, I mean

549
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 5: they feel kind of alive.

550
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Which, so you being at the game or gate

551
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: basement party goes to a question I've seen a lot

552
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 3: of people ask I've wandered about, like the the how

553
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 3: do you square you in the public space? You work

554
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: harder than almost anybody than I know. Like the day

555
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: that we're taping this, you're up early in the morning

556
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: do breaking points and then recording some episodes for the holidays.

557
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: You'll then have maybe four hours to go do other work.

558
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 6: The Serious Exam Show, It Too Serious.

559
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: XM Show two, and then you're going to do the

560
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 3: Reason Debate at be there at five thirty and then

561
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: you're doing your after party show on Megan Megan Kelly's

562
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 3: network at like ten, which will go till when like midnight.

563
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 6: Eleven eleven thirty.

564
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 4: Right, So that's it's a long day. It's a fun day.

565
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: I don't want to say that, like like it the

566
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: way I always.

567
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: Think, what is it? Beats working? Yeah, you always it's

568
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 4: not real work it because it's fun.

569
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: But it's a lot. That's a lot. It's six am

570
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: to like eleven, twelve pm. We can acknowledge that.

571
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 4: That's like a long day, even if it's fun stuff. Yeah,

572
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: it's a long day.

573
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: On the other hand, from the cultural political perspective, it's like,

574
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: well women should shouldn't you know, shouldn't be working or

575
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 3: I don't even know exactly where. Obviously you wouldn't ban

576
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: them from working, but like, how do you square that?

577
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 6: That's a good point.

578
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 5: No, I've that's that's gone back to like people who asked,

579
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 5: you know, Philish Slaughley that for years and actually yeah,

580
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 5: another one of my form of experiences was we brought

581
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 5: Philish Laughley to campus. I went to a Bertucci's and

582
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: sat next to Phylish Lafley when I was like twenty

583
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 5: years old, and you know, she was eighty nine at

584
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 5: the time, and I just remember working, still working, escorting

585
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 5: her down this narrow hallway at GW and the protesters

586
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 5: eighty nine years old were like shouting in her face

587
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: and calling her like the most awful things. And again,

588
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 5: I actually do understand where some of that comes from,

589
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 5: directed to Phylish Laffey, because there's a lot of you know,

590
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 5: there's a lot of angst from like the sexual Revolution

591
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: and LGBT stuff, feminist stuff that then comes out and

592
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 5: actually probably isn't real stuff too, that comes out when

593
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 5: you have a kind of somebody like Philischlaffley as an

594
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 5: avatar for that movie. Anyway, Yeah, watching the like Hatred

595
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 5: and Bitriol was quite an experience. I don't I'm not

596
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 5: one of those people that you know, has ever thought

597
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 5: that women should not work. My mom worked, you know,

598
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 5: probably seventy hours a week, like she was flying to

599
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 5: like you know, for a lot of my childhood, just

600
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 5: flying like China and Germany because she worked for you know,

601
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 5: automatic company.

602
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 6: No no, no.

603
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 5: No, she wishes, she wishes, but no is she was

604
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 5: in human resources, which would be a horrible.

605
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 6: CIA cover or maybe a great no but I've never

606
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 6: thought that. I think we have.

607
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 5: Mary Harrington has this really interesting point about how the

608
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 5: separation between home and work is actually industrial, it's post industrial.

609
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 5: It's only something that we think about. This idea that

610
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 5: women should stay home and that home isn't work is

611
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 5: like very much in Americans at this from like a

612
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 5: Marxist perspective that like men and women shared the work

613
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: of the home until industrial society came along. So I

614
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 5: think some of these are like artificial distinctions. I think

615
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 5: if you look at surveys, it's true that most women

616
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 5: want to work part time with their kids and be

617
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 5: home for part of the time with their kids.

618
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 6: That is the plurality of what women want to do.

619
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 5: So I think women should should be treated that way,

620
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: and you shouldn't be talked down to for choosing to

621
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 5: work part time or stay home with their kids. But

622
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 5: I don't really buy into the artificial distinctions between That

623
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 5: is an.

624
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: Interesting point that because the the whole like women should

625
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: be at home is a post World War two, Like

626
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century, like, yeah, everybody was working at home,

627
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: especially because energy production was such a significant part of

628
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: home life. Yeah, like going out like basically getting cold

629
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: or chopping wood and making sure that you had like

630
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: enough to heat the house occupied, like like men, men

631
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: had to do that, and we're doing it on top

632
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: of whatever their job was otherwise the house is called

633
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: and that gave them an out then too, they're like

634
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: that they're not you know, if they're shirking other duties,

635
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: because they're not sharking anything, because they're like, like, literally they.

636
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 4: Got to be out there chopping wood.

637
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, an enormous amount because it burns so fast.

638
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 4: And interesting, so.

639
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: Energy production being taken care of now by just the

640
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: house has freed men up, and so men filled that

641
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: time with any game or gate and like right now

642
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: now it's now it's back to being wildly unbalanced back

643
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: at home.

644
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 5: It's a good Christmas book recommendation Feminism Against Progress by

645
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 5: Mary Harrington.

646
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 6: She goes into some.

647
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 4: Of those house what's her take?

648
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 6: Just what I like, Like, it's actually very fascinating. At

649
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 6: the time.

650
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 5: I don't know if she would still define herself this way,

651
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 5: but at the time it's a very Marxist critique of

652
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 5: the feminist movement.

653
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 6: It's really interesting.

654
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: That's interesting because yeah, I guess, like I guess a

655
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: lot of it.

656
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: They grew up in the forties. Yeah, in fifties.

657
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it's right.

658
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 4: That was their perspective rather than a long historical one.

659
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, it becomes like a corporate academic feminism.

660
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 4: So then how do you wind up with a federalist.

661
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 5: I was at the Washington Examiner working for so when

662
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 5: you know Tim Carney on the commentary desk for a

663
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 5: couple of years. A job opened on the commentary desk

664
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 5: at the Examiner. I jumped at it right away because

665
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 5: I really wanted to do writing, and I told yeah

666
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: that when I started working for them, that's what I ultimately.

667
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 6: Wanted to do. So I jumped at that.

668
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 5: But Tim was insistent and rightfully so, that if you're

669
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 5: a twenty four year old and you have an opinion

670
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 5: writing job, you're actually going to be doing reporting. So

671
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 5: like you can do your blogs, but you need to

672
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 5: bring new information to the table. And so that's where

673
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 5: I hate reporting. I always say there are a couple

674
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 5: types of journalists. There's the journalists who get into the

675
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 5: job because they love reporting and talking to people and

676
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 5: they hate writing. There's the journalists who get into the

677
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 5: job because they love writing and hate reporting. There's the

678
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 5: rare person who likes both and is good at both.

679
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 5: But I'm the type of person that I'm in it

680
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 5: because I love writing. I don't like reporting. But Tim

681
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 5: forced me to do it, and that was incredible. So

682
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 5: the Federalists plucked me from there to sort of do that,

683
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 5: but with more at the time, like considered elegant kind

684
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: of cultural writing every day. So my job was to

685
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 5: write one piece on culture a day. It's like the

686
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 5: dream job, which because the Federalist is very small, quickly

687
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 5: turned into a lot of other things. I was doing

688
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 5: a lot of editing, read the submissions every day, which

689
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 5: was fascinating. The Federal submissions from like twenty eighteen to

690
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 5: twenty twenty.

691
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 6: Four were very very interesting, not bad.

692
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 5: Yeah so, And the Federalist model was publishing non professional

693
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 5: writers from around the country, which I think any leftist

694
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 5: publication is that is a model that they should take.

695
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 5: Because we were publishing most of our staff was in

696
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 5: the rest of the country, you know, our politics editor

697
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 5: was in Texas, executive.

698
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 6: Editor in Indiana, like everyone was elsewhere.

699
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 5: But most of our writers were non professional writers either,

700
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 5: just like people with normal jobs like small town lawyers.

701
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 6: Say moms that type of thing.

702
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 5: So that was very very interesting to see the difference

703
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 5: between like the DC Hive mind and the submissions every day.

704
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: So now you went to college with two interesting people,

705
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 3: Graham Platner, Yeah, I think sell Yah Soger and Jetty.

706
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 3: Yes you did you know him in college? And is

707
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: that how you first started doing like how did you

708
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: first start doing Rising Appearances?

709
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: So actually before then doing the show, Sagur and.

710
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 5: I definitely met each other without knowing it in college,

711
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 5: is my theory, because he was in a frat that

712
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 5: I would occasionally like be at the parties that had

713
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: a friend of a friend who was like in that

714
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 5: frat party was Yeah, probably he was a he was

715
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 5: not getting But soccer used to be a much better time,

716
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 5: much better dive.

717
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 6: It used to be a much better hang. Yeah. So

718
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 6: Sager is a year head of me and g W.

719
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 5: Platner was just going through GW very slowly on the

720
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 5: GI bill, and we found out recently that we overlapped

721
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 5: with him.

722
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 6: I don't think either of us knew him, but.

723
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 5: Sager had a really similar circle of friends to me,

724
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 5: and so when we met at an event that he

725
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 5: was covering, it was he was covering a yeah event,

726
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 5: we met in person.

727
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 4: And you were at at the time.

728
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was it was like the week of the

729
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen election, and we met in person.

730
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 6: We were like, oh, yeah, we have all these friends

731
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 6: in common.

732
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 5: And then our friend circles like became totally intertwined because

733
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 5: one person started like my best friend started dating one

734
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 5: of his best friends, and there.

735
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 4: You go, there you go.

736
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 3: And so then he starts asking to do like weekly

737
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,479
Speaker 3: are you doing weekly rising things?

738
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 5: You know, it's funnier, it's even funnier than that. Sager

739
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 5: was really interested in starting to do like on camera

740
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: stuff when he was at The Daily Caller and I

741
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 5: at the time was doing a decent bit of on

742
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 5: camera stuff at Fox, and so we were talking about

743
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 5: like what that's like, if it's worth all that sort

744
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 5: of thing, and so when he was at the Caller,

745
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 5: we were kind of strategizing on those types of things,

746
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 5: and then he would come and like, I think you

747
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 5: too would be on the panel and rising when he

748
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 5: got that job.

749
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we had like maybe you had this too.

750
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: I think it was like Tuesday, you'll be on like Tuesdays, Yeah,

751
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: and whatever you want to talk about. Yeah, Tuesdays something

752
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: like that. So then, so you helped Saga with the

753
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: whole Fox thing.

754
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 6: I don't know if you'll admit it, but yeah, we.

755
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 4: Got well we'll interview Saga.

756
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: Were to him on Connecticut Avenue. Yeah, I mean we

757
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 5: had a little conversation about that. But and I was

758
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 5: also on the Daily Caller softball team, so I was

759
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 5: like hanging out with all.

760
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 4: Those guys the team any good?

761
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 5: Oh hell yeah that year we beat the State Department

762
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 5: in the championship.

763
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 6: Awesome.

764
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 5: Yeah that's Hillary's state, well not Hillary's but Obama stage part.

765
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: I played on the House Ways and Means Committee team

766
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: several years.

767
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 6: It's the crazy story.

768
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 4: We had like four four four or five hough Post

769
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 4: people and then.

770
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 6: Ways of so inappropriate.

771
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: We literally were going to bat for them. So so

772
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 3: then Saga and Crystal leave, they go do breaking points. Yeah,

773
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: and you come in for a couple of weeks and

774
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 3: do rising and then end up doing it for a

775
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: very long time. Like how did how did that fit

776
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 3: into your how you had seen your career going?

777
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 4: I guess. Then we got to wrap up pretty soon.

778
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, people probably chick here. I know I've said this before.

779
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 5: People probably know this like I, on camera stuff is

780
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 5: not my favorite.

781
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 6: I don't love it.

782
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 5: I'm happy to do like radio stuff, but I really

783
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 5: hate doing on camera stuff. And so one of the

784
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 5: reasons I didn't want I didn't jump at the chance,

785
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 5: among many other reasons, Soccer and Crystal kind of filled

786
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 5: us in on what was going on at the Hill,

787
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 5: So there were a lot of reasons. I think both

788
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 5: of us were skeptical it was great money, though at

789
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 5: the time it was great money, and so yeah, just

790
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 5: like you know, it was also kind of trying to

791
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 5: help them out and was like trying at the time,

792
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 5: I was trying to do less on camera stuff, to

793
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 5: be honest, because Fox had again tapered off for various reasons.

794
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 5: But it started to become really fun, and I think

795
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 5: you and I both experienced the obvious reaction that audience

796
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 5: has had to Crystal and Sager, which was awesome, Like

797
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 5: just it was so cool.

798
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 6: It's cool to see how that's blossomed.

799
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's I didn't And around that time, reading

800
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 3: has like been steadily decliding, and like audiences are moving here.

801
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: So if you want to share the news that was

802
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: so cool, kind to go where they are here we

803
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: are well.

804
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I don't know, I mean, I don't I

805
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 5: don't know that I would want to co host anyone else.

806
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 6: I mean, there's obviously also a Chrystal.

807
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 5: Sorry they're great, but yeah, but I just mean, if

808
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 5: like we hadn't initially been paired up together, yeah, I

809
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 5: don't think. I don't know if I would be here

810
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 5: because I feel like that was really crucial.

811
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's that that's the limiting factor. And I

812
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: think in these shows.

813
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 6: Actually is that it's I think that's right.

814
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 3: There's a there's an audience for much more of this

815
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 3: type of news than is produced, but people can't produce

816
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: it because they can't get along and they can't or

817
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: they don't not or but and they don't know what

818
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: they're talking about. So it's it's hard to find people

819
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 3: who like they know what they're talking about and also

820
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: like the other person if they don't uhgree with them

821
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: on everything.

822
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was really hard.

823
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean the fact that we got through

824
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 5: peak woke, that Crystal and Saga and all of us

825
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 5: got through Peak woke, and like.

826
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: My t shirts, yeah we should.

827
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 5: We survived the cancel culture wave. I actually think it's

828
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 5: an amazing achievement. And the last thing I'll say is just.

829
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 6: From here it's gonna be downhill.

830
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 5: And also, yeah, I mean we certainly have disagreed on

831
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 5: Israel stuff and probably definitely still do, but that has

832
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 5: been an interesting journey.

833
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 6: For me too.

834
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 5: But it's the last thing I'll say is I think

835
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 5: algorithms are reprogramming our brains, especially in media. So and

836
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 5: this is just also audience directed. You guys have probably

837
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 5: see just the amount of people that react to Ryan

838
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 5: and Me and Crystaline Sager with total sometimes extreme like

839
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 5: you can't talk to that person, you can't talk to

840
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 5: this person. People will probably be surprised at how much

841
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 5: that we get constantly like this disqualifying, you should never

842
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 5: talk to this person again.

843
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 6: How can you host a show with this person? How

844
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 6: can you host a show with this person?

845
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 5: Given what this person that this person is friends with, thanks,

846
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 5: Like it's just crazy, And so I think one of

847
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 5: the reasons there's a demand for this type of show

848
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 5: that doesn't get done is because the algorithms are like

849
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 5: reprogramming so many people to give in to those pressures

850
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 5: and to fight or to dig in their heels and

851
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 5: not continue to learn from each other and whatever.

852
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 6: So that's one thing I think we do well.

853
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think if you push past those people like,

854
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: we're winning.

855
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 4: Yeah.

856
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 6: I think that's true.

857
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: Because there are more people who are like, no, actually,

858
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: you should talk to each other and I want to

859
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 3: hear Like a lot of people will watch both Fox

860
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 3: and CNN.

861
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 4: It's like, why are we making people do that?

862
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, give it to them, Just give.

863
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 4: It to him right here.

864
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 3: And it also creates more honest news because it fights

865
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 3: audience capture.

866
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you you.

867
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 3: Know, if you just have one perspective and then you're

868
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: then you build an audience that wants to hear that perspective.

869
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: And if you want to change direction or if you

870
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: have a position that differs from what they think, which

871
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 3: you have to because times change, right, we move on,

872
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 3: like we get new information totally. You can't or you

873
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 3: lose your audience, whereas our audience very much expects to

874
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 3: hear things they don't agree with.

875
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's so true, and I hope people see that

876
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 5: we like learn from each other. I think journalist should

877
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 5: have more questions than answers, you know, And that's where

878
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 5: I get a lot of times people being like, well,

879
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 5: what do you actually think about this? It's like, because

880
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 5: we're used to having people in media who have a

881
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 5: rock solid opinion on every single thing, because that's how

882
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 5: you were taught. I mean, I always talk about how

883
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 5: when I did media training before I went to Fox.

884
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 5: The first time I answered I don't know to a

885
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 5: question in training, and the one was like, just don't

886
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 5: ever again. Yeah, right, And now it's like a lot

887
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 5: of times I'm just asking questions because you don't have

888
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 5: to have a prefab ideological conclusion for every question that

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00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 5: comes up.

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00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 6: And shows that are in the.

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00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 5: Habit of giving you that are bad, I think people

892
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 5: are getting sick of them.

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00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 4: Well.

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00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: Emily co host of Breaking Points, co host of The

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00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 3: Emilyki Late Night Hour on The Kelly Show, Still ongoing

896
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: writer Unheard.

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00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 6: Yeah calumnist and Ryan.

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00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 5: Host of the show Ryan I'm Ryan Grim's biggest fan,

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00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 5: I swear, other than maybe Allison.

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00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: There you go, so well, thanks so much for joining me,

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00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me right. I hope everybody's having a

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00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 3: wonderful holiday.

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00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 6: Now it's my turn to turn the camera on. Ryan