1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Podcast playground. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 2: I'm Buzznight, the host of Taking a Walk Music History 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: on Foot, and today our guest is an award winning 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: director John Sinfeld. His great body work includes the US 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: versus John Lennon, Herbalbert Is. There's also a great documentary 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: about Harry Nilsen and he even dips his toe into 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: the happy days of Gary Marshall. John is really a 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 2: pop culture historian with his work, and his newest. 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 3: Project required quite a bit of detective work. It's part 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 3: music doc park political thriller. It's called What the Hell 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 3: Happened To Blood Sweat and Tears? And we talked to 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: director John Sinfeld next Taking a Walk. Well, John Seinfeld, 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: welcome to Taking a Walk and congratulations on What the 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: Hell happened To Blood Sweat and Tears. 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Buzz. I'm pleased to be here. Thanks 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: for having me. 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: So what is your criteria that you use when you 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 3: consider a project such as What the Hell Happened To? BST? 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: With any film, It's two things really. The first one 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: is what's the story? Is the story compelling enough? Does 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: it have enough layers to it that would be worthy 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: of putting it up on a big screen as opposed 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: to a television documentary, And in this case absolutely this 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: story has everything. It has blackmail, it has international intrigue, 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: it has Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger in the White House. 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: It has so many great layers and it was just 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: irresistible from that standpoint. But the second thing buzz is 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: we need to know that there's enough audio visual assets 29 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: out there with which to tell the story. What I 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: mean by that is there film, is their video? Are 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: there enough photographs? All the visual things that we must 32 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: have to make a story come alive for a film, 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: And that was a little diceier on this one. What 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: we did know is that Bloodswood and Tears took along 35 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: a documentary film crew when they went behind the Iron 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: Curtain to do this tour. They shot sixty five hours 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: of film footage and then came back to Los Angeles 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: to edit it into what was supposed to be a 39 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: two hour documentary for theaters. Because Bloodsweat and Tears was 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: as big as you can be back then, and this 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: footage has totally vanished, we looked everywhere. The problem was 42 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: the production company that paid for it when bankrupt in 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: late nineteen seventy. The post production house where we know 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: the editing had been happening, and all the film actually 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: was stored there. They went bankrupt in nineteen seventy one, 46 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: and so here it is, this fifty some years yars later, 47 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and we're trying to follow the trail of where this 48 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: material went. I had hoped they'd all put it, boxed 49 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: it up, and put it into storage and we'd find 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: it somewhere. But we went through every storage vault in LA, 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: in New York, Washington, Virginia, for government places. Nothing, nothing, nothing. 52 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: And then one day I got a call from a 53 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: woman there ran a vault here in LA and she 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: didn't have anything in her computer database. But it was 55 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: during COVID and she was home and had nothing to 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: do one day, so she was going through loose leaf 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: notebooks you and your listeners may remember those, and she 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: found some vague reference to blood, sweat and tears. And 59 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: so the next time she went into the vault, she 60 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: went into a far corner and in a pile of 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: material marked for destruction, she found a pristine print of 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: what was supposed to be a shorter version of this documentary. 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: So we had nearly an hour of footage to work with, 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: and that became the foundation for our film. Long way 65 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: of answering your question, you got to have those two things, 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: and here we had great story, and once we found 67 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: the film, we knew that we could proceed and get 68 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: going into production. 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 3: Well, but as a pop culture historian, detective work would 70 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: seem for you to be something that is also part 71 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: of your criteria for projects. Is that true? 72 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: Very much so, And it's one of the aspects of 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: the job that I really love, just sort of rolling 74 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: up your sleeves and getting into people's closets, under their 75 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: beds and their atticts, going to archives here and there. 76 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: I just love doing all that. And I have a 77 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: great team that we're all very respectful and very nice people, 78 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: but were extremely persistent and we keep at it. I'll 79 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: give you another example, Buzz. We knew that the band 80 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: had taken a portable eight track tape machine with them, 81 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: not the kind that used to be in people's cars, 82 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: but a portable studio machine, and they recorded all of 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: their concerts on this Iron Curtain tour, and the tapes 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: we assumed were in the same place that that sixty 85 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: five hours of film was, and we were not convinced 86 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: we're gonna be able to find it. But Kathleen Hermitage, 87 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: who's one of my great researchers, tracked down the family 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: of the associate producer of that documentary crew and he 89 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: had died, unfortunately in twenty eighteen, but he had a 90 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: storage unit, and the family took everything in the storage 91 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: unit and donated it to the Academy of Motion Picture 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: Arts and Sciences here in Los Angeles. But for three 93 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: years it just sat there. No one did an inventory, 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: nobody looked bothered to look to see what was there, 95 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: and Kathleen kept very nicely pushing, pushing in this wonderful archivist. 96 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: Warren finally went down into the basement and looked at it, 97 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: and lo and behold, there were five of these eight 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: track tapes there. It was three, four, seven, eight, and 99 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: eighteen numbered, so we knew there were eighteen tapes at 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: one point. Why he kept these five, we don't know. 101 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: What happened to the other ones, we don't know, but 102 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: thank goodness, he held onto these. Across those five tapes 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: were ten of the twelve songs that they performed on 104 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: the tour. So we were able to really put those 105 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: into our film and create a soundtrack that just blairs 106 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: out at you when you listen. 107 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: Well, I do have a theory later on in the 108 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: interview that I want to spring on you. That's an 109 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 3: adjacent theory on the blackmailing tour, that blood, sweat and 110 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: tear had to go on. So I'll say that, and 111 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: you could tell me I'm full of blowney about it later, but. 112 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: I'll look forward to that if I can. But it's 113 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: just one other sort of detective thing that we did 114 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: on this one. And this is true for really any 115 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: of the films I've made. There's always this kind of 116 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: you got to track down stuff and you find it 117 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: in very strange places. Well, I'll just give another quick story. 118 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: So I did his film a few years ago called 119 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: Chasing Train about John Coltrane, the Jazz Icon, and there 120 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: was no footage of him in the studio whatsoever. Some photos, 121 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: but no footage. So my producer, Dave Harding, and I 122 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: are in New York at a home of this photographer 123 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: and we're going through negatives and contact sheets looking for 124 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: unique shots of Coltrane and we come across this one 125 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: photograph of a guy and Coltrane in the recording studio. 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: And I must have said something like oh shit. And 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: Dave says to me what And I said, look at 128 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: this photo and he says, it's Coltrane and some guy 129 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: in the studio, So what And I said, look what 130 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: the guy is holding in his hand and the guy 131 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: is holding a Super eight movie camera. What am I thinking? 132 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: Of course, that he shot something in the studio that day, 133 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: So the photographer was Chuck Stewart remembered that this guy 134 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: was Art Davis, who was a world class bass player, 135 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: jazz bass player. We tracked down his son, who's an 136 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: insurance broker here in Van Nuys, California, and we called 137 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: him up and he said, yeah, I got all the 138 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: home movies in the garage, and we went out and 139 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: after about three weekends of going through his home movies, 140 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: most of which were Mom and Dad and Grahama and 141 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Grandpa in the backyard on the swings, we found a 142 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: seven and a half minute color reel of Could training 143 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: in the studio. So that's the kind of detective work 144 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: we have to do because I don't want to just 145 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: have the same film and video and photos that every 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: other documentary has. I like to find really unique stuff 147 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: and we did that very much here on What the 148 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: hell happened to Bloodwood and Tears. There's a lot of 149 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: material that no one has seen before. 150 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 3: By the way, I love Chasing Train, so just have 151 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: to have to say that as well. 152 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate it. 153 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: So what sort of a fan of Blood Sweat and 154 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 3: Tears were you? On one to ten ten being fanatical. 155 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: I would say in eight, I love the band. You know, 156 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I don't know if you've had this experience, 157 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: if you've talked to Blood Sweat and Tears fans, But 158 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: there are some that fall into we love the first 159 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: album with Al Cooper and we don't like the rest 160 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: it's not hip enough for us. Or we love the 161 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: David Clayton Thomas ears and we pooh pooh the Al 162 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: Cooper because he couldn't sing. And I'm somewhere between the 163 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: two of them. I love both of them. I thought 164 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: that first album was just sensational, and I love the 165 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: David Clayton Thomas years. He is such a unique, such 166 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: a great singer that really brings that material up another level. 167 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: So I was a big fan. I'd sort of come 168 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: across them in high school and played them on my 169 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: college radio show at Oberlin College. But then you know, 170 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: all the years go by and nothing happens. And then 171 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: when Bobby Columbia called me one day, and we'd only 172 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: met once before, I didn't really know him. He called 173 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: one day and so I want to take you to 174 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: lunch and tell you a story. And we went to 175 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: lunch and I'm telling them about what I just said 176 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: to you about I love these albums. And I literally 177 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: said to him, what the hell happened to Blood Sweat 178 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: and Tears. Here you were in nineteen seventy one of 179 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: the biggest bands going, and then you weren't what happened? 180 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: And he said, well, that's the story I'm going to 181 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: tell you, and that's the story in our film. 182 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: Did you ever get any sense where Al Cooper's head 183 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 3: was on all of this at all? 184 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: No? I love Al. I love his solo work, and 185 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: I have a lot of those albums. And I actually 186 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: interviewed him for who is Harry Nilsen? And why is 187 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: everybody talking about him film? I like long titles, buzz 188 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. So I love Al, 189 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: But Al really wasn't part of the story because we weren't 190 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: doing a history of Blood, Sweat and Tears. We're really 191 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: focused on a moment in time, that summer of nineteen 192 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: seventy and what happened. 193 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 3: Did you have any preconceived notions of the band that 194 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: you needed to sort of monitor in this process that 195 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: you went through and creating this. 196 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: Not really again, because it wasn't a history of the band. 197 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: It didn't really matter what my opinions were about the 198 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: music or about the individual members of the band. What 199 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: I didn't really know is Bobby had given me the 200 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: rough outline of what happened, and that's really all he knew. 201 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: What we had to do was to be able to 202 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: find documentation that told us what really was happening behind 203 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: the scenes and what was happening on the ground in 204 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: those three communist countries Yugoslavia, Romanian Poland, and again back 205 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: to our detective theme, most of those documents were not 206 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: in the state department files or not at the National Archive. 207 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: What happens is a lot of these government departments deposit 208 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: everything at the national Archive, but then after ten fifteen years, 209 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: there's some evaluation that goes on, is this important and 210 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: if it isn't, they would just toss it, not for 211 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,479 Speaker 1: nefarious reasons, but just because of storage space and somehow 212 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: William Fulbright, who's a congressman from Arkansas, decided he'd loved 213 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: this part of the State Department's activities, the Cultural Exchange program, 214 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: So send all those files to the University of Arkansas 215 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: and that's where we found them, and it was a 216 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: treasure trove of material for us that really helped us 217 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: to piece together what we thought was happening behind the scenes. 218 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: And we can talk about that later when you share 219 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: your theory. 220 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: I love also how you went back for that whole 221 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: cultural presentations program. That Dizzy Gillespie piece was unbelievable with 222 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: I think that was with Adam Clayton Powell, right, and 223 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: Fan Paulo. 224 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: Is a congressman from Harlem, and let me bring out 225 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: my good friend at Dizney Glass. We were delighted to 226 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: find that piece of film, and again that's one that 227 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: hasn't been seen very often, and we just love that. 228 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: And I love the fact that we're talking here about 229 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: weapons to use against the Russians in the Cold War 230 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: and Dizzey Gillespie has his cool weapon, which we thought 231 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: was really great. That is really amazing. 232 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: So talk about the eerie arrival on the scene of 233 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 3: this guy named Larry Goldblatt. 234 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: Larry was became the manager for Blood, Sweat and Tears 235 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: in September of nineteen sixty nine. The band had gone 236 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: through a couple of managers before that, and they were 237 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: looking for somebody with some fresh ideas who thought outside 238 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: the box. And their lawyer brought to Bobby Columbia this guy, 239 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Larry Goldblat, and you know, fresh thinker, outside the box, 240 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: does great things. I think he'd be terrific for you. 241 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: And Bobby says, well, that's great. There's only one problem. Well, 242 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: what's that he's been in prison. It's like, okay, anyway, 243 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: It turns out he had been into prison for writing 244 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: some bad checks and he was in Chino Prison here 245 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: in California. But they hired him and he really, for 246 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: a time, really did some great things for the band. 247 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: And it was Larry who, when he took over, knew 248 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: that there was this immigration problem involving David Clayton Thomas, 249 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: and rightly so decided he needed to be proactive to 250 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: solve this problem. And we talk about what he did 251 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: in our film. 252 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: Is Larry deceased at this point? 253 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: Yes, Larry died in nineteen eighty six. I believe from cancer. 254 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly, but yes, he died in nineteen 255 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: eighty six. He was with the band till about nineteen 256 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: seventy two, and then they let him go and he 257 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: kind of knocked around for a while, not quite sure 258 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: what he did. But then yes, I passed away in 259 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: the mid eighties, so we weren't able to talk to him. 260 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,239 Speaker 1: But we have a woman in our film, Tina Cunningham, 261 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: who was his assistant and who also was his wife. 262 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: They got married in Yugoslavia when the band was there 263 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: on tour. The US embassy there arranged for a church 264 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: for them to get married. The Ambassador to Yugoslavia gave 265 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: her away at the ceremony because her own father couldn't 266 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: come all that distance to Yugoslavia, and David Clayton Thomas 267 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: was the best man. And I get asked sometimes did 268 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: you have any sequences that didn't make the film? And 269 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: that was actually one of them. The film crew shot 270 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: the wedding and some activity before and after on the 271 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: street outside, and they gave Tina a fifteen minute roll 272 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: of film and she found that inner attic and gave 273 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: it to us and we did a new transfer and everything, 274 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: and it was in the film for a while. It's 275 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: very sweet and very touching, and it was a little 276 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of a different tone for the film, but ultimately 277 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: it was kind of off story and we decided it 278 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: was really appropriate to have it in there. But anyway, 279 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: Tina had great insights into Larry for those reasons, and 280 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: it was as if we had access to him, but 281 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: not quite. 282 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: I think it's probably great that Larry remained this eerie, 283 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: kind of creepy character rather than this sweet guy who 284 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 3: got married. 285 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: You said it, and you know, you've been around the 286 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: music business long enough, you know there's a lot of 287 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: shady characters, and so this was not unusual. But it 288 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: did provide a little bit of drama for our narrative. 289 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 3: So the classified information that you had to get you 290 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier a little bit about that, But that must 291 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 3: have been incredibly difficult to really gain that access, was it. 292 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: There are two sort of parts to that buzz. One 293 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: is a number of the files over the years have 294 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: been declassified, and those are the ones that showed up 295 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: at the University of Arkansas, and that would have been 296 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: internal memos, correspondence, telegrams, and telex's from Europe. All of 297 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: that had been classified at one time and over the 298 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: years got declassified, so that was fairly easy for us 299 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: to use. We did need some things again here detective work. 300 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: I came across in one of the Arkansas documents a 301 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: reference to a Kissinger memo to Nixon about this tour 302 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: that blood, sweat and tears made. And I'm like, wait 303 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: a minute. This made it up to Kissinger and Nixon, 304 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: how is that? What's that all about? So we had 305 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: to send some one of our researchers off to the 306 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: Nixon library, and ultimately we tracked down this memo. We 307 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: talk about it in the film, and Kissinger writes Nixon 308 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: a memo, and then Nixon writes Kissinger some notes on 309 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: the bottom of the memo, and we have that, which 310 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: was great. I think what we weren't able to get 311 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: buzz were two things. I felt that if the State 312 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: Department was going to send these nine young men and 313 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: their crew over behind the Iron Curtain to these communist countries, 314 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: the FBI would have had to have vetted them just 315 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: to make sure that there wasn't anything in their past 316 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: that was going to be embarrassing to the government. And 317 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: through freedom of Information Act. We did a request and 318 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: nothing came back, meaning there wasn't anything. But then I 319 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: got put in touch with the official historian for the FBI, 320 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: great guy, and he did some checking on his own 321 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: just to make sure, and he said, yeah, there wasn't 322 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: anything here. And again I don't think that's nefarious particularly. 323 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: I think it's just they probably vetted them, everything was fine, 324 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: and you know, somewhere along the way they didn't need 325 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: to keep that report anymore. But the other thing was 326 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: a little more intriguing to me. I would have thought 327 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: that maybe there was a CIA presence on this tour 328 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: somewhere just to sort of keep an eye on things. 329 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: And we think we know who that might have been, 330 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: but we're not sure. And again Freedom of Information Act 331 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: did not reveal any of the internal memos or reports 332 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: or anything from people like that, nor did my talk 333 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: with the official CIA historian. And again I have to 334 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: think probably not nefarious. I think everything worked the way 335 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: they wanted it or something, and nobody bothered to save 336 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: that report. So I would say pretty easy for us 337 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: to find what we needed. There was so much of 338 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: it that we really had to go through it and 339 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: be very careful. You know, unlike certain news organizations in America, 340 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: I like to tell the truth, and we had to 341 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: really be careful that we wouldn't have anything in our 342 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: film lists. We could corroborate it two or three times 343 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: with other sources, and these files enabled us to do that. 344 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: And I think it's okay that there's some unanswered questions 345 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: along the way that you can't possibly track down. So 346 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 3: I think that adds to the intrigue of the storyline, 347 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 3: don't you very much? 348 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: So absolutely do, because you can't always find everything. It's 349 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: like there is so much information out there on the 350 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: Internet about so many things. But yes, there just always 351 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: will be some unanswered questions, and that's okay as long 352 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: as we don't and we will make we will make 353 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: some educated guesses on things based on the evidence that 354 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: we do have. So, for example, we make an educated 355 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: guess as to what happened to those sixty five hours 356 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: of footage. We don't have the actual documentation the paper 357 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: trail that shows us precisely, but based on the evidence 358 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: and eyewitness reports, we do take an educated guess as 359 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: to what happened. 360 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: How did you possibly track down these concert goers that 361 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: were at these shows over there? In the Soviet block. 362 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: A great question. You know, it's one thing if the 363 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: band members talk about how great the audiences were and 364 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: what they seem to feel the audiences were feeling. But 365 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: it's a whole other thing when we actually have the 366 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: people who were there talking about it. So we hired 367 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: researchers in the former Yugoslavia, Romanian, Poland, and thank heaven 368 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: for social media over there, they were able to put 369 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: out the word and said, if you were at these concerts, 370 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: please contact us, and there and full of people that 371 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: did in Romania and Poland, and it just really buzz 372 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: elevated the whole film to be able to not only 373 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: hear what they say, but to see them and see 374 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: their faces, and you just can tell how significant how 375 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: important these concerts were to them, what they meant to 376 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: them at a time where a free speech was not 377 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: part of their daily life. You know, there are people 378 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: in our country today that like to praise Putin, and 379 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: I think what they forget is what it's like to 380 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: live under these dictators and the authoritarian regimes. And what 381 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: these individuals did was to talk about the lives that 382 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: they had and that these concerts represented breath or fresh 383 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: air freedom to them at a time where they didn't 384 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: have much. And I think that was an important part 385 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: of our film, that we could have these people talk 386 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: for themselves as to what Blood, Sweat and Tears concerts 387 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: meant to them. 388 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: And you do believe, considering the world today comparing it 389 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: to the summer of nineteen seventy, that there are parallels 390 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 3: in your. 391 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Movie, absolutely right. I mean, you look at it. Some 392 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: of the specifics are different, but America in nineteen seventy 393 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: was very much polarized as we are today. There were 394 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: conflicts between the right and the left, the red and 395 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: the blue states, the East and the West, meaning Russia 396 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: and America. And Bloodswood and Tears really became an early 397 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: victim of cancel culture before we really knew what that 398 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: was or knew what that term meant. And then there 399 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: were things I was like when we were editing a 400 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: sequence about when our historian Tim naff Tally, who's fantastic 401 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: in the film, when he starts to talk about some 402 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: of the historical context of what was going on in 403 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: those communist countries in Eastern Europe. He talked a bit 404 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: about the Czech rebellion in nineteen sixty eight, where checkos 405 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: Aki had tried to become more free and democratic and 406 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: the Russians invaded with tanks and troops, and we're looking 407 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: at some footage with which to illustrate that point, and 408 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: we couldn't help but think of Russian tanks rolling into 409 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: the Ukraine today. So many many different parallels, And I 410 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: think that's what makes our film, from my standpoint, so unique, 411 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: is that it's not really a music documentary. It's more 412 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: of a political thriller kind of film. And I think 413 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: people who don't know Bloodswoot and Tears may not know 414 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: the music, we'll still find this a fascinating story in 415 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: and of itself. 416 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 3: Then there's the Abby Hoffman piece. If he were alive, 417 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 3: he would make some interesting questioning about his role in 418 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: that infamous Madison Square Garden concert. 419 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: Yes, well, you know, Abby was great at political theater 420 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: and gestures in that regard, and we have it gave 421 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: us a great humorous sequence in our film Buzz to 422 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: be able to show what Abby Hoffman tried to do 423 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: to Blood, Sweat and Tears at Madison Square Garden when 424 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: they came back from the tour, And it just gave 425 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: us a chance to get some real laughs in the film. 426 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: But also I think to point out, Blood Sweat and 427 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: Tears found themselves any unique position when they came back 428 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: that usually these days, if you're criticized politically, it's from 429 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: one side or the other, from the left or from 430 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: the right. Blood Sweat and Tears got it from both 431 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: the left and the right, and that really was a 432 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: devastating situation for them. 433 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 3: Well, they got affected also by this whole cool factor 434 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: because they, you know, took this crazy leap right with 435 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 3: the Vegas Show. And now look at how commonplace it 436 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 3: is for acts to play in Vegas, right. 437 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know you asked, you were asking 438 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: before about Larry Goldblatt. That was his idea, Let's let's 439 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: open Upvegas to rock and roll acts. Now everybody does it, 440 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: and so in a sense, Blood Sweat and Tears was 441 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: on the cutting edge. They were doing it before anybody 442 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: else did it. It did kind of hurt him at 443 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: the time. But I think what I've learned making the 444 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: film is that they had a when they were a 445 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: hit act from sixty nine to seventy one, they had 446 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: a very broad demographic. They reached young people, rock and 447 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: roll fans, but they also reached their parents who were 448 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: jazz fans or pop fans, and that, in a way also, 449 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: I think contributed to a lack of a cool factor, 450 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: that the fact that adults would listen to this music. 451 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: You know, they weren't quite so hip and so cool. 452 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: But I think what they were able to do with 453 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: that music was that it transcended those demographic barriers, that 454 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: it was so good that music, that it really did 455 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: appeal to a broad range. And I think that music 456 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: still lasts today, people who hear it on Serious XM 457 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: or any of the other outlets there, this music holds up. 458 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: And I think it's because it was just beautifully arranged 459 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: and uh and beautifully played. 460 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 3: Well, we must have been cool enough for Miles Davis 461 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 3: to play at the Madison Square Garden show. So if 462 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: it was cool for Miles, must have been cool enough. 463 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: Don't you think they had a lot of you know, 464 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: they had a lot of cool fans Herbie Hancock, A 465 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: lot of those kind of hip jazz guys loved him, 466 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of rock and rollers loved him. But 467 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: over time things change, you know, And I think part 468 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: of the answer to the question of what the hell 469 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: happened to blood, sweat and tears. Is they really weren't 470 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: hip anymore, They really weren't cool to anybody after a while, 471 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: and I think ultimately that had a significant impact on 472 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: their career. 473 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: All Right, So here's my my lame question slash theory 474 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 3: out loud. Is it possible that Steve Katz's relationship with 475 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 3: a rabble rousers such as Ramblin' Jack Elliott maybe put 476 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 3: he and the band in bad favor also with the government. 477 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: It's an interesting question. Buzz I would have to say. 478 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: We didn't come across any evidence that would suggest that 479 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: it was anything other than David's immigration problems that caused 480 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: issues for the band. Steve was clearly outspoken politically, clearly 481 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 1: had friends in more progressive and or slash radical organizations. 482 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: But you know, having done a film like The US 483 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: Versus John Lennon, where we really got into the underground 484 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: and the Abby Hoffmans and the Jerry Rubins and the 485 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: weathermen and all those kinds of people that Lennon really 486 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: did interact with and that brought him to the attention 487 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: of the FBI, we did not see that here what 488 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: we didn't have time to tell in the film. So 489 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: I'll share it with you now. Is the first inkling 490 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: that something was going on with the band actually came earlier, 491 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: almost a year earlier than the tour. In late June 492 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine, there was a little break in 493 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: the Blood, Sweat and Tears schedule and David Clayton Thomas 494 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: went back to Canada to see family and friends and 495 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: maybe take care of some business. And he was supposed 496 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 1: to come back to the States because they were going 497 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: to headline at the Newport Jazz Festival on July fourth, 498 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, And when he got to the airport, 499 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: the Canadian authorities wouldn't let him out because the American 500 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: authorities wouldn't let him in. And it was because of 501 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: this green card issue, and that was the first notion that, 502 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, we may have an issue here. The 503 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: head of the Newport Jazz Festival, George Ween, apparently, according 504 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: to his book, he reached out to a friend of 505 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: his who was in the Nixon administration and they worked 506 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: it out and David was allowed back in and they 507 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: did in fact play the Newport Jazz Festival, but it 508 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: appeared to linger as an ongoing problem, and that's why 509 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: when Larry Goldblack came on in the fall, he said, 510 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: we got to solve this. This is really going to 511 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: be a problem. Now. That's not to say that maybe 512 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: there wasn't an FBI file on Steve that we didn't find, 513 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: but we just didn't come across that. 514 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: Well. Thanks for the insight on the making of it 515 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 3: and the storyline, and for the great work of your documentary, 516 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: your political thriller What the Hell Happened the Blood, Sweat 517 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 3: and Tears. I appreciate you John for being on. 518 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Now, Thanks for having meus really enjoyed the questions, very smart, 519 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: good questions. 520 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Taking a Walk is produced by Bob Malichesta. 521 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: It's hosted by me Buzznight and I hope you'll follow 522 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: us on Apple, Spotify, tune in, cast box, or wherever 523 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: you get your podcast. Leave us a review, and kindly 524 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: spread the word about Taking a Walk.