WEBVTT - Jamie Kitman 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.240 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:17.320 My guest today is music manager Jamie Kittman. He's responsible 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.320 for They Might Be Giants. He also looks after Mike Doughty, 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.840 and his previous history was involved with Okay Going the 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.440 violin Thems. But even more interestingly, he is the New 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:35.320 York bureau chief for Audimobile Magazine. Jamie, Hello, Bob Okay, 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.120 So what are you doing in l A Um actually 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.080 out here for the launch of the land Rover Defender. 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.159 Little light music business on the side, but there's a 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:51.040 new land Rover Defender for the first time in seventy years. Uh, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.360 the original coming out, and uh that's kind of a 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.640 big deal. So I'm actually here covering it for Airmail, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:05.800 which is the new Graden Carter Alesander Stanley UM publication. Okay, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.679 how did you get that gig writing for them? Uh? 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.000 They called me up and asked me if I wanted 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:15.199 to do it, and I was like sure, Um, you know, um, 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.800 I would like to say I'm in three dying industries, uh, cars, music, 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:24.800 and magazine. So uh, when somebody calls generally in the 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.440 certainly in the writing realm, I'll hear them out and uh, 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.240 it's uh, it's a pretty exciting publication and so it 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.400 was kind of an honor to do it. Okay, Now, 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.760 I certainly got their first edition free over the summer. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.000 Do you have any idea what's going on with the airmail? Airmail, 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.240 how many people are reading it, etcetera. Um. I was 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.720 talking to my editor the other day. He said that 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.320 they thought it was successful so far and that they 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.080 were still having fun. And I said, well, it's only 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:56.960 been out for a couple of months. I hope you're 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.160 still having fun. But he uh he he indicated was good, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.120 But I don't really Uh, you know, it's hard to 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.520 track that the metrics on something like that, and I'm 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:09.920 not sure I would understand them anyway. Okay, starting with 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.799 the automobile thing, You're not only in Automobile Magazine every 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.040 issue with a column, You're occasionally in the New York 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.800 Times on the opinion page. What generates the most heat 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.359 for you? Well, I mean it depends what you mean 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.799 by heat. Um. When I wrote I think my first 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:34.520 automotive up ed piece was for the Times was um, 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.960 basically their first ever anti suv uh ed piece. Uh 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.679 in n So that was gosh, that's twenty four years ago, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.440 but um, twenty five years ago. Uh that that generated 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.280 a lot of heat in the sense that suddenly I 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:57.720 stopped being invited to car launches by manufacturers because uh 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.920 that was in fact, they're great profidence and it just 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.120 irritated them. I can tell you a story that combined 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:09.760 both of cars and music around that. Uh that was 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.280 time to the uh New York Auto Show that year 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.040 and land Rover Um, who are actually my hosts on 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.920 this trip, We're launching their first ever Discovery model then 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.240 and it was so important to them that they had 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.799 hired Staying uh for it as he uh to come 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.920 to New York and he was gonna um receive a 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:41.400 donation for his Brazilian rainforest charity. Uh while introducing the 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.680 Discovery to the assembled media who were in town for 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.800 the New York Auto Show, but also not just the 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.680 automotive media, but the music press, which was a thing 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.280 back then and had all these people. They were going 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.160 to go to an art directed mound of dirt on 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.160 at the end of forty Street by the Hudson River, 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.600 and a Discovery was going to drive over it. Then 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.960 Staying would get the oversized check and the photo op 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.720 and all that stuff. Apparently I found this out a 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:12.520 year later from a uh sometimes uh freelance publicist for 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.160 land Rover. She was like, Jimmie Kentman, you made for 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.479 the most miserable day of my life. Apparently Sting woke 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.239 up that morning and read this piece in the Time 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.400 suggesting that actually SUVs weren't environmentally sound and that they 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.479 really hadn't you know, no benefit to most people and 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:35.080 were unnecessary and just eight more gas were more deadly 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.640 in accidents, and he woke up and he refused to 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:42.839 show up. So uh, the end of the story is 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.240 is that they ended up having to give his rainforest 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.000 charity eighty thous dollars instead of forty. So I feel 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.200 like I did my bit for the environment right there. Yeah, 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.680 I mean obviously, although we still need more money for 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.880 the rainforest right now. But this was that was when Jaguars, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.040 Jaguarren land Rover are still together but owned by the Chinese. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.520 Now right, that's no, they're owned by the Indians. Now 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.800 they're owned by Tata Motors. Can't keep straight who's owned 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.880 by the Chinese and so who's owned by Indians and 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.440 who's owned by Chinese. The well Jaguar land Rovers owned 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.360 by the Indians UH. Also the new UM electric sports 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.560 car company Pininfarina's owned by a different set of Indians, UH, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:30.120 and UH the Chinese owned Volvo UH and their new 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:34.280 pole Star all electric brand which is just launching its 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.960 first car, the poll Star one which I drove the 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:42.719 other week, which is awesome. And UH. They also UM 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:48.560 own Lotus, the English sports car company UM, among others. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.320 And the actually the people who make London taxis now 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.200 are owned by this same Chinese company, which is called Jelie. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.120 And the thing about both of the Indians and the 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.920 Chinese UH the make for interesting case studies as opposed 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.960 to when American companies were buying of car companies, like 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.680 when Ford bought Volvo and Jaguar and Aston, Martin, UH 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:15.760 and GM, saab UM, is that the Chinese really seemed 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.320 to stand back and let the engineers who made those 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.400 companies worth buying in the first place do their job 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.240 and you know, the executives and the product planners and 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.240 things like that, whereas the Americans tend to have stuck 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.880 their fingers deeper into those companies in an effort to 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:38.520 realize additional savings and things like that, with sometimes uh, 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.240 negative results for the company that they bought. The the 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.400 the most egregious example being SAAB, which was bought by 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.520 General Motors, and you know what they did. They surgically 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:54.200 removed its brain. And you know, they sold a Chevy 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.520 Trailblazer as a sub and it was, you know, an 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:02.400 affront to everything that SAB ever stood for Now at 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.440 the same time, I know you happen to have that 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:10.280 SABERU the well that was you know, at least that 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.440 was closer to what a SAB had sub you know, 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.120 not been going bankrupt, what they would have been making, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:22.040 whereas the the Chevy Trailblazer SAB was just an abbommination. Okay, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:23.960 I says, I don't need to vend defend my car. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.440 You know. Interestingly, I just taken to the sub rue 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:30.080 place to be serviced. Well there there is no place exactly. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.239 But uh, I have a friend who owned two sobs 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.880 and ran into that trouble, said he's never gonna buy Okay, 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.400 I talked to him about buying a Tesla threason already 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.520 bought two cars from a company that went out of business. 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.880 I'm anxious, but we'll get to Tesla. Eventually they're great 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.720 values car cars from companies that are either out of 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.720 or going out of business. I mostly specialized in those. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.600 What I bought new cars, great deals. Okay, what have 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:58.440 you bought recently to you? Uh? Well, I actually I 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.800 bought a Fiat was the first car I ever bought 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.640 new car right after they had an announced going out 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.920 of business. Eight now, I said, eighty two, I bought 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.120 a Prussia and ninety two right when they went out 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.280 of business. Half rice um. I wrote a column in 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.720 ninety four or ninety late ninety three I had just 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.400 bought it Alfa Romeo, and I said, well, based on 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.960 my drag record, they're probably going to go out of business, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.080 And six months later they did. Uh so yeah, I 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.040 mean okay, but interestingly you but you know, fix it again, Tony. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.560 My sister had a Fiat, great car, but certainly you know, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.400 the body ended up getting cancer. When you get one 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.160 of those cars discontinued, especially Pougeau that weren't that many 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.280 of them. How hard is it to get them serviced? Uh? 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.040 It's harder than than some other cars, but not impossible 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.199 if you're resourceful and having always been an old car 0:08:55.280 --> 0:09:00.679 fan Um. Finding obscure parts difficult, you know, to find things. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.920 You know, it's just been always part of my existence. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.400 There's actually old cars that it's easier to get parts 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.679 for now than it was twenty or thirty years ago 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:15.200 because because they people started to reproduce uh parts that 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.960 had gone out of production. There was there was enough 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.040 of a business case for people old mgs for instance, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.000 you know, for people to make almost every part that 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.600 was on one of those cars, so it became easier. Also, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.760 the Chinese will make almost any part um if there's 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.920 a market for it, um and they can do it cheaply. 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.720 Uh Sadly they're often of inferior quality, but you know 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.280 they might get you back on the road, right, Okay, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.280 So you're here for the land Rover Defender. Okay, I 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.480 remember land Rover in the seventies, front of mine had 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.640 it went all of fifty five, but it would climb anything. Okay. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.480 Then about twenty five years ago, a little bit longer, 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.160 they came out with the range Roll. Now in l 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.400 A that's a status car and it never goes off 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.720 you know, off trail so to speak. What's your viewpoint 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.079 on all that? Well, I mean that's actually uh Rover 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.000 really pioneered that market. The range Rover actually came out 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.200 in nineteen sixty eight, uh in in sixty nine and 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.720 in the UK and Europe, just didn't get sold in America. 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.120 It was a luxury car then it was it was 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.800 it was more spartan than it is today, but it 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.719 was considered a luxury suv and um UM I had 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.800 an unusual window on that because I was born in Brooklyn, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.880 but I grew up in Leonia, New Jersey, which was 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.800 the headquarters for British Leyland, which was the company that 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.559 owned Rover by that point, and so I saw prototypes 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.600 of those when I was a kid riding my bicycle 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.439 around in their parking lot that they had were testing 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.720 in America doing hot weather testing for um, which in 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.440 the New Jersey summer is is really believable because it 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:05.200 was hot. But my view of them in general is that, uh, 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:10.120 you know, uh, I've always liked range Rovers, but uh 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.280 I like them better when not so many people were 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.079 driving them, because there there's a certain person who really 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.880 can make good use of that and I think, you know, 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.920 reasonable efficient use of it, and then there are people 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.960 who are just mostly wasting gas and taking up too 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.559 much space. So so I'm sort of ambivalent about that. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.120 The Defender, I mean, it really leads the more you 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.400 think about it, it leads you to to the whole 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.760 authenticity question, which is, you know what so much marketing 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.040 of everything from you know, cars and high fi systems 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.360 and bicycles and and music is about um because the 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.040 Defender was around for so long that it kind of 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.840 got a free path from everybody, myself included, because it 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.160 it just it was what it was. It was no 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.679 nonsense work vehicle, and they didn't really the funds with it, 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.320 and they weren't catering to you know, the latest uh 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.959 you know mobile phone app. In fact, it had no telematics, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.760 no capability to deal with your phone whatsoever. Uh. And 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.199 that was that was um, you know, gave it an 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.559 incredible authenticity, which makes the launch and the new Defenders 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.960 so um interesting. You know, I haven't actually seen it 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.480 in the medal. I will tonight, but um, you know, 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.440 are they able to sustain that? Are they able to 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.120 you know, to recreate that with this new car that 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.200 is modern? You couldn't you couldn't build a car that 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.360 that was that primitive anymore. It wasn't safe enough. Um, 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.600 it didn't have the you know, facility to do things 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.679 that everybody expects of their car. Now. The downside of 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.040 the new things, which are going to be way more 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.280 electronics and exotic medals and things like that, is that 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.640 they're harder for people in the bush too to fix. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.720 Which was always one of the things that people liked 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.320 about land robbers is that you know, you could be 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.560 in the in the in the deepest jungle in Africa 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.959 and with the you know, with this Swiss army knife, 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.800 you could get a lot of stuff fixed and repaired. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.959 But you know, it ain't gonna be that way anymore. 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.160 And it's just okay, how long has it been since 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.959 they manufactured the original Defender Just about a year I think, like, yeah, 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.160 just a little over a year. And they did a 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.040 run out edition that was very expensive in the UK 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.800 that speculators all bought and uh many automotive journalists and 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.160 my acquaintance also bought. And how expensive expensive Well it was, Yeah, 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.840 it was getting up in the fifty thousands of dollars, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.319 I would say, which you know, for for what's essentially 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:51.000 like yeah, stripped down vehicles was enough The new ones, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.320 they will be more expensive, so that will be uh 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.680 you know, it will keep them exclusive for some time. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.199 I think we have bought the defender of the VIA 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.839 generation in America, only there was a brief period they 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.520 stopped selling what was its predecessor in nineteen four in 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:15.680 America and in ninety three through you could buy it legally. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.360 There's a massive trade in cars that are imported from overseas, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.080 though many of them illegal, and there was in fact 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.920 a very um well publicized effort on the part of 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:33.560 the government too sees cars that had been fraudulently imported. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.240 There's a twenty five year exemption on old cars that 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.440 if a car is twenty five years old, it doesn't 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.760 have to pass E p A standards and d O 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.320 T standards. And this is of course before the Trump administration, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.040 where it doesn't matter if anything passes any standard because 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.040 they don't enforce any of the rules anymore. But uh 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.320 so you could bring in a twenty five year old 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.560 land Rover. What people did was, um they would get 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.720 a serial number off of twenty five year older older 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.600 land Rover, slap it on almost brand new one and 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.640 bring it in. So l a is is uh littered 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:13.000 with you know, two thousand and fifteen land Rover Defender 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:17.400 one tens with all the trimmings um that are probably 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.640 titled as a you know, as a or something like that. 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:23.720 You know, it's interesting you bring up a lot of things. 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.360 You talk about being in New Jersey and seeing the 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.480 models that are going to come out. I remember being 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.760 in the library and high school. We'd read those car magazines. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:33.760 I never saw a f I grew up a never 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.120 saw a famous person, never saw one of those covered cars. 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.920 Have seen it occasionally in l A friend of mine 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.320 had the last Defender seventy four and when we lived 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.360 in Utah, because we were skiing and he wanted a 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.280 vehicle like that. He brought it in to the company 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.120 that service and they said, there's no such thing as 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.200 the seventy four. If you want to come out and 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.840 see mine, and I remember we were Mammoth Mountain in 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.760 May and there's nowhere to park. He literally parked it 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.760 on the side of a mound of snow, nearly vertical. 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.520 It's just amazing with those things could do. They they 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:11.280 were great. Okay, so let's let's back up. Holy Okay, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.520 let's start with you brought the suv question in your mind, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.320 the fact that most of these vehicles are now crossovers, 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.720 meaning that they have a cart bottom as opposed to 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.520 truck bottom, does that save them? In your eyes? It 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:32.480 improves them? And you know, in in fairness, they're significantly safer, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:38.560 more economical, cleaner, better handling, less likely to roll over, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.560 less likely to kill the driver. Um then and other 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.920 people than the SUVs of say the nineties were. Uh, 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.080 it doesn't entirely save them because they're still they're big, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.560 they're bluff um, and they're tall with higher centers of gravity, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.960 so they actually get you know, worse mileage than an 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.600 equivalent car would get or something that was lower. Um. 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.520 They don't necessarily have any more room than a car 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.480 would have. They're just jacked up higher. And it's uh, 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.760 so that's you know, that's what's negative about them. And 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.639 a lot of people will say, well, you know, in 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.880 the electric future, when you know there's these new electric 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.280 SUVs like the Mustang that was announced last night or 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.400 the Rivian that's coming that, you know, it won't really matter, um, 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.520 because you won't be using gasoline, but you will be 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.879 using more electricity to power this thing. That's too heavy, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.120 too big, and very bluff um, so that it will 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.640 still be an issue even then that you know, why 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.320 should you be using more electricity than less electricity? If 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.320 we didn't care about that, why do we have laws 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.880 that make refrigerators more efficient and televisions and other appliances. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.440 So um, so I'm concerned from that point. Also, Dynamically, 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.119 they're a real step down from cars, you know, dynamically 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.000 meaning how they handle, how you know, how fast you 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.679 can go around a corner, on from the old school, 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.760 which vout puts a value on, you know, how nicely 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:12.560 things go around corners. Uh. The SUV really was a 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.920 paradigm shift, and that's what Suddenly people stopped caring about it. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.040 It was like the shift that I know that you've 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:24.040 written about often where you know, high fidelity sort of 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.639 became like what's that. You know, the whole generation of 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.680 people who had been you know, you know, their predecessors 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.560 had spent their entire lives in search of better and 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.560 better sound. Um, suddenly you know went out the window 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.560 in in in favor of miniaturization and you know, like 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.600 portability and and uh, you know, connectivity and things like that, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.680 so that it became a you know, high fidelity became 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.520 a minority interest where it had been at least a 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.640 bigger minority. Uh. Same with handling and ride and things 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.000 like that. Then other an log in the in the 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.200 car world was the shift from uh, smaller wheels to 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:09.359 bigger wheels. Now everything's got twenty inch wheels and big 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:14.440 tires or twenty two inch wheels, and that runs against 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:19.720 you know, the hundred years of automotive history where engineers 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:25.879 and manufacturers learned and customers agreed that that all of 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:31.680 that extra weight and height made for a poor ride quality. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.880 And so things got a lot bumpier than they had been. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.480 And and you know, a hundred years of trying to 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.359 make cars ride smoothly went out the windows. Okay, so 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.160 if you see a car now almost all the cars 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.119 have these very low profile tires, what are the advantages 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:51.880 and disadvantages of those. Well, the advantages are are generally, uh, 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.800 more grip um because there's less flex in the side wall, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.520 and you know, more confident handling, but mostly aesthetic beyond 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.919 that and uh and the same with the wheels. So 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.480 I remember being at the GM proving grounds and in 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:14.480 UH war in Michigan, and UH um, we were driving 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:21.040 around in a Cadillac Escalade, and um we One of 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.320 the things we were doing was driving a GM show 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.560 car from the nineteen thirties called the Wide Job, which 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.239 was a Buick and a really cool futuristic you know, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.439 two seater that was you know, eight ft long, but 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.639 it had these tiny wheels, like thirteen inch wheels with 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.560 big balloon tires, and um, I asked the guy who 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.679 was driving me around. I was like, well, you know, like, 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.040 what was the idea with like thirteen inch wheels? Were 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.440 riding in an escalator on twenty twos? And he's like, oh, 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.200 ride quality absolutely, And I was like, well, why are 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.800 then just this Cadillac, which is supposed to ride smooth? 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.720 Why is it uh have twenty two inch wheels? And 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.800 he was like, well, uh, you know people want them. 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.840 They look cool. You know. That's it. That's all I got. Okay, 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:11.240 starting with handling the Cayenne and the Cayenne Turbo, the 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:16.480 poor show how does that handle compared to a sedan? Uh? 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.000 It Well, again, it's it's a lot. It's pretty heavy, 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:21.919 so it's on the heavier end of what a sedan. 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.000 My way on the on the you know, really probably 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:29.119 a little past that, but it also is taller. Now 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.960 that said, you know, they handle about as good as 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:37.199 something that weighs, you know, fifty pounds could handle, you know, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.440 after it's been jacked up six or seven inches. But uh, 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.679 you know, compared to I mean the comparison that I 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.439 find more emotional for me is comparing it to like 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.360 a nine eleven or a Boxer, which handles great. Um, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.520 and it's you know, it's a different thing. The brand 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:01.840 has has you know, fundamentally changed or at least large 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.040 parts of it. Some of my colleagues will tell you, well, 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.120 you know, they had to do that in order to 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.439 be able to steal offer things like the nine eleven 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.800 and box there. I don't I don't buy that, but 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.240 you know that's okay. I know this ridiculous point. But 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.359 on a percentage basis, what percentage of the handling of 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.399 a nine eleven would you get with a Cayenne? How 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.600 much are you losing? Oh? Uh you know, I mean 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:30.040 non scientifically, I would say, you know, you're losing uh 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.320 a lot, you know, I mean, you know, in terms 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:36.440 of like how fast you could go around the track, Yeah, 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.080 not as fast, and in find up slower, but the 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.280 joy of driving something that's lets close to the ground 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:47.960 and that's really it is not carrying any excess weight. 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.080 It is is substantial. I mean, you know, it's like people, 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:56.200 you know how you know, like if if somebody weighs 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.080 too much, you know, like it affects the way they 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.440 move around it. Okay, So is there any hope? Is 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.359 there any hole? Especially when the American manufacturers stopping making sedans, 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:11.320 is there any hope for the sedan in America? Well? Interestingly, UM, 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:18.440 the Japanese makers Onanda and Toyota and Nissan, UM, and uh, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:23.280 the Korean makers haven't given up on that. And reading 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.120 in the trade press in the last six months, while 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.239 people are sort of scratching their heads, going like, well, 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.919 why haven't they followed the Americans down this rat hole? Um, 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:37.360 they say, well, our research tells us that UM millennials 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:43.120 actually are buying more UM small cars and sedans than 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:48.000 the SUVs, which is different than what older people are doing. 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:50.560 And you know, I mean I've been predicting this for 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:55.320 years and that that people would that it was a 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.400 fad that would go away SUVs. Of course it would 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.080 appear on the surface that I was wrong. And and 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:03.639 one of the reasons I started being invited back on 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:06.720 car launches was that nobody listened to my op ed 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:13.080 But um, um, the you know idiots. It's sort of 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:18.520 axiomatic in that in the automobiles that uh nobody wants 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.639 to drive with their parents drove. So you know, station 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:24.679 wagons went out in favor of mini vans because you know, 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:29.760 station wagons weren't cool. And then um, you know, and 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:34.600 then mini vans went out largely as SUVs rolled in 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:38.600 to take their place. So something you would think would 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.520 replace that. And I would suggest that station wagons again 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:47.600 still make more sense and minivans than most SUVs, being lighter, 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:51.480 more nimble and having just as much room and obviously 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.760 more economical in terms of of using uh, you know, 0:24:56.240 --> 0:25:00.280