WEBVTT - Ig Nobel Prizes 2018: Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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<v Speaker 1>your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're back with part two of our ig Nobel

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<v Speaker 1>Prize Recipients episode. I was gonna say, if you haven't

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<v Speaker 1>heard part one, you need to go back and listen

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<v Speaker 1>to that first, but you don't really. I mean, you

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<v Speaker 1>should go back and listen to it, but you can

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<v Speaker 1>understand this episode without hearing that one. That's right. We're

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<v Speaker 1>just covering all the winners across two episodes. Ultimately, it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't matter which order you take them in. Uh. Though,

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<v Speaker 1>the top of the first episode has just a brief

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<v Speaker 1>section where we talk about what the ig Nobel Prizes are,

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<v Speaker 1>So if you're if you're not sure on that, I

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<v Speaker 1>would recommend checking that little bit out. But have you've

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<v Speaker 1>been listening to the show for years, you know that

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<v Speaker 1>we continually do this. We do this pretty much every November,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes in October, but generally it's a November situation where

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<v Speaker 1>we catch back up see uh what the previous months

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<v Speaker 1>or technically September's UH honorees were for the ignoble prizes,

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<v Speaker 1>and we just talk about them a little bit. Sometime

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<v Speaker 1>the past, we've done, uh, you know, two hosts talking

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<v Speaker 1>about it. We've done three hosts talking about it. We've

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<v Speaker 1>tried to cover them all on a single episode. We've

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<v Speaker 1>covered them across three episodes. This week it's just Joe

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<v Speaker 1>and I and we are doing it in two episodes.

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<v Speaker 1>So some of these descriptions are shorter than others. That

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<v Speaker 1>kind of depends on what kind of meat is on

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<v Speaker 1>the bone. Speaking of if you haven't listened to our

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<v Speaker 1>last episode, it had some good stuff about cannibalism, so

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't check that out all right, well, speaking speaking

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<v Speaker 1>of meat, though, let's go ahead and jump into biology. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>the biology prize. I gotta start with a question, Robert.

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<v Speaker 1>You know some people are these what would you call it,

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<v Speaker 1>the unbothered eaters, the the cool hand lukes of eating stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're everything bagel falls on the floor, you just

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<v Speaker 1>pick it up and eat it. It's just a little

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<v Speaker 1>more of everything, right, Robert? Are you like that? Or

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<v Speaker 1>are you somebody who can't can't talk all erate getting

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<v Speaker 1>a few hairs off the floor on your food? Who?

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<v Speaker 1>Uh if I am not going to pick a hair

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<v Speaker 1>off of it. But if I dropped something and it's

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<v Speaker 1>just there for a second and the floor looks relatively clean,

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<v Speaker 1>especially if it's in my own house, then yes, I'll

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<v Speaker 1>probably eat it. I do have limits, though, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there have been times, especially when I've been places with

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<v Speaker 1>my son, who, especially when he was a little younger,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a higher probability that what he was trying

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<v Speaker 1>to eat might fall onto the ground. I like, I

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<v Speaker 1>particularly remember eating these delicious fish sandwiches in Barbados to

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<v Speaker 1>this place called Kuzzes cutters cutter being the uh the

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<v Speaker 1>boji and I believe slang for a sandwich. But it

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<v Speaker 1>was just like a delicious fish and cheese sandwich with

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<v Speaker 1>some boji and hot sauce, absolutely delightful, and we were

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<v Speaker 1>just eating it over just this uh like it was

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<v Speaker 1>just you know, like gravel and some bottle caps, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was just on the brink of falling apart in

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<v Speaker 1>my son's hands, and I just I just saw it

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<v Speaker 1>in my mind, like that fish is going to the ground.

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<v Speaker 1>The fish Patty's gonna jump out of the sandwich and

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<v Speaker 1>there's gonna just gonna be no reclaiming it. Luckily, it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't happen, Well, thank the gods for that. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>that's a deliverance. But if I were in my own

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<v Speaker 1>house and that were to happen, I would say, no,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not throwing that fish patty out. We're gonna pick

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<v Speaker 1>that up. We're gonna brush it off, and you can

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<v Speaker 1>finish it. Okay, Parts two and three coming. Part two.

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<v Speaker 1>You're at a restaurant. You find a hair in your soup.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you just pick it out and keep eating the

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<v Speaker 1>soup or do you eat the hair or do you

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<v Speaker 1>abandon the bowl completely? I think I have. I have

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty good ability to quickly remove a hair and

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<v Speaker 1>and almost kind of delete the memory of it occurring

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<v Speaker 1>and keep going, especially as long as it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>relatively good. If if the food was already offending me,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it might be different. Yeah, you like

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<v Speaker 1>men in black pin yourself. It's just like it's wiped clean.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't not seeing it? Now, didn't see it. You're just

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<v Speaker 1>gonna keep moving. Okay, here's the last one. What if

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<v Speaker 1>there's a fly in your glass of wine or your

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<v Speaker 1>cocktail or whatever, do you still drink it? Or is

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<v Speaker 1>the ruined? Has the has the fly simply landed on

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<v Speaker 1>the glass, or is it floating dead in my drink.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a good question. It's let's just say it's in

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<v Speaker 1>it's in the liquid. It's in there. Well, once it's

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<v Speaker 1>in the liquid, that is kind of gross. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't help, especially if you're drinking something outside. You

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<v Speaker 1>can't help, but have fly or even like a yellow

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<v Speaker 1>jacket or something sometimes land on your drink and there's

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<v Speaker 1>nothing to be done. If a fly is just floating

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<v Speaker 1>in there, I might have to send it back. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>those flies can be disease vectors. Yeah, you don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what they were landing on before this. They might have

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<v Speaker 1>been on sewage. I mean, I think that's that's a

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<v Speaker 1>bridge too far from me. Even though it's gross enough

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<v Speaker 1>if one lands on something you're eating or drinking, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's something about the fleeting contact. As gross as it is.

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<v Speaker 1>I can again, I can use the I can delete

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<v Speaker 1>the memory and keep moving. But if I have to

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<v Speaker 1>fish the body out of my drink, I don't know. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>here's another thing. Have you ever noticed if a fly

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<v Speaker 1>landed in your drink if you could smell it. No,

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<v Speaker 1>I've never noticed that. Well, maybe this is something to

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<v Speaker 1>check out next time, because that's what this year's Biology

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<v Speaker 1>Prize concerns. So the the paper in question here is

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<v Speaker 1>called The Scent of the Fly by Paul Betcher, Sebastian

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<v Speaker 1>le Breton, Erica Wallen, Eric Headenstrom, Philippe Berrero, Echo, Verry,

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<v Speaker 1>Marie Bankson, Vulcar Jorger, Peter witzkall, oh, that's the whole list. Sorry, congrats.

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<v Speaker 1>I would have just at all the crap out of

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<v Speaker 1>that one. Oh man, I probably should have. But yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so I've got a new word for you, Robert simio chemicals.

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<v Speaker 1>Heard that one, simio chemicals. Okay, it just means chemicals

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<v Speaker 1>used for communication, like semiotics, signs study of science sending communications.

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<v Speaker 1>So the authors of this study point out that all

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<v Speaker 1>living things communicate by way of chemicals, quote, unlike sounds

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<v Speaker 1>or sites, simio chemicals interconnect species across kingdoms and enable

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<v Speaker 1>information exchange between animals, plants, and microorganisms. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>there's some indication that's true, like that they're chemical signals

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<v Speaker 1>that allow your body to communicate with your microbiome. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, or maybe I'm going on on on in here,

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<v Speaker 1>but I mean it seems like Some obvious ones would

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<v Speaker 1>be the smell of rotting flesh or rotting organic material, right,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of sends a signal across a species. Yes, you're

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<v Speaker 1>communicating in a way with the bacteria that are consuming

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<v Speaker 1>that flesh. And also i'd imagine that the smell of

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<v Speaker 1>something especially sweet, the smell of nectar, etcetera. Right, you

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<v Speaker 1>might be communicating with a plant. Yeah, exactly. So a

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating takeaway from this knowledge is that the same one

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<v Speaker 1>biocompound maybe bioactive for different species in different ways. In

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<v Speaker 1>other words, one semiochemical communicates something to both you and

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<v Speaker 1>some other animals, say your dog or an insect, but

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<v Speaker 1>what it communicates is radically different. And anybody who has

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<v Speaker 1>a dog, in fact, probably is familiar with this because

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<v Speaker 1>something that smells repulsive to you smells delicious to your dog.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh So, one example is don't you just love the clean,

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<v Speaker 1>fresh scent of citrus? You know, it's like it's a

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<v Speaker 1>very calming smell that makes you feel like everything is

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<v Speaker 1>spick and span. Yes, unless it's actual spick and span.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't know actual spickin span. Spickin span

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<v Speaker 1>is a cleaning product, right, which is yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, but it does this touches on one of

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<v Speaker 1>the key differences for me. If it's legitimate citrus, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>it's beautiful. I love the smell. But if it's something

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<v Speaker 1>that it is, like a fake lemon smell, then there's

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<v Speaker 1>something unnatural about that. Well, did you know I actually

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<v Speaker 1>came across the paper while I was reading about this

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<v Speaker 1>that found that, like the title of it was something like,

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<v Speaker 1>lemon fresh scent causes flies to lay eggs. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>lemon fresh scent. It's a chemical cue that says to you, ah,

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<v Speaker 1>this place is clean and delightful, unless maybe it's the

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<v Speaker 1>synthetic smelling kind that you don't like. But so this

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<v Speaker 1>one might be why the fly would be seeking out,

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<v Speaker 1>say my tiki drink. Yeah, it's got a lemon fresh scent.

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<v Speaker 1>It says to the flies, lay your eggs here, this

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<v Speaker 1>is a great place. And this is probably because the

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<v Speaker 1>vinegar fly Drosophila melana gaster prefers to deposit its eggs

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<v Speaker 1>in the peel of citrus fruit as long as yeast

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<v Speaker 1>is present there. And so this particular study, the the

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<v Speaker 1>Ignoble winning study, focuses on a compound called Z four

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<v Speaker 1>undescinal or Z four eleven a L undicinel or dc

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<v Speaker 1>aldehyde is an organic compound that can be found in

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<v Speaker 1>citrus oils. So Z four eleven a L you can

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<v Speaker 1>associate it with with a kind of citrus peel, clear,

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<v Speaker 1>oily liquid kind of thing, And it is one of

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<v Speaker 1>these volatile compounds that plays a role in the life

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<v Speaker 1>of multiple organisms. In vinegar flies, Z four or eleven

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<v Speaker 1>a L is produced by females and it seems to

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<v Speaker 1>play a role in the attraction of male mates. But

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<v Speaker 1>Z four eleven a L is also bioactive in other organisms.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, Z four eleven a L is produced in

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<v Speaker 1>the anal glands of male rabbits such as the European

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<v Speaker 1>wild rabbit. And it's got a mini splendored scientific name

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<v Speaker 1>or ricto legas coniculus. Yeah, that's like it. That should

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<v Speaker 1>be a bond villain name. And so experts believe this

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<v Speaker 1>volatile compound might play some role in territorial marking uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And one reason for thinking that is that, like studies

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<v Speaker 1>have found that when you have other male rabbits smell

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<v Speaker 1>this compound, their heart rates shoot up, maybe like oh,

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<v Speaker 1>there's another dude around here. Not having a um. A

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<v Speaker 1>related similar scent has also been found to emanate from

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<v Speaker 1>the colonies of a c bird called the crested auklet,

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<v Speaker 1>which is Ethia Christa tella. And this scent has been

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<v Speaker 1>tracked to two associated alde hydes. It's not exactly the same,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not Z four eleven a L, but it's the

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<v Speaker 1>chain shortened analog Z four decinal as Z four ten

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<v Speaker 1>a L and Z two decinal and researchers think that

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<v Speaker 1>these smells function as a parasite repellent and an advertisement

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<v Speaker 1>of mate quality. Another another interesting link, like we've talked

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<v Speaker 1>about before, between mating advertisements and the avoidance of parasites. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes when you're showing off how good of a mate

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<v Speaker 1>you are, what you want to show is I got

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<v Speaker 1>no parasites on me. Look and see. Oh and I

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<v Speaker 1>also just included an image of what crested auklets look

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<v Speaker 1>like because they look really funny. Oh yeah, they're they're beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>They're are some beautiful birds. And if you want to

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<v Speaker 1>check out a picture of them again, that the spelling

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<v Speaker 1>on that auklet is a u k l et. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they've got um so they've got crests like sort of

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<v Speaker 1>mohawks going out of I don't know what you'd call

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<v Speaker 1>that part of the face, the bridge of the nose

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<v Speaker 1>over the beak, uh that like shoot out forward and

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<v Speaker 1>then they've got really funny google there are like googly

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<v Speaker 1>eyes those eyes. But anyway, but so back to the compound.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking about Z four eleven a L. But the

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<v Speaker 1>funny thing this study found is that apparently humans are

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<v Speaker 1>also highly sensitive to the smell of this particular compound.

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<v Speaker 1>So it comes out of rabbit anal glands, it comes

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<v Speaker 1>out of auklets, but humans also find significant the smell

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<v Speaker 1>of Z four eleven a L, even in tiny quantities.

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<v Speaker 1>And thus humans are highly sensitive to the smell of

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<v Speaker 1>the female fruit flies or not fruit flies. Actually they're

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<v Speaker 1>often called fruit flies, but technically they are vinegar flies

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<v Speaker 1>vinegar flies that produce it. And there was an experiment

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<v Speaker 1>that proved this. It was a wine tasting. So you've

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<v Speaker 1>got eight members in the study. That was two women

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<v Speaker 1>and six men who were trained wine assessors, wine experts.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that those people the smela types who I

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<v Speaker 1>think they worked in the wine industry assessing wines in Germany,

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<v Speaker 1>and each sample the aroma of multiple randomized glasses across

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<v Speaker 1>a few tests. So across the different tests, these glasses

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<v Speaker 1>contained either nothing in the control condition, or the scent

0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.720
<v Speaker 1>of a female fly, which produces the compound, the scent

0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.400
<v Speaker 1>of a male fly, which does not produce the compound.

0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.560
<v Speaker 1>Various amounts of synthesized like lab made Z four eleven

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.480
<v Speaker 1>a l uh tested against a background content of nothing,

0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.600
<v Speaker 1>water or white wine. I believe it was a dry

0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Pinot blanc from and the results were that tasters could

0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.280
<v Speaker 1>strongly detect the smell of a single female fly or

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.839
<v Speaker 1>the presence of isolated Z four eleven a l in

0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.680
<v Speaker 1>the glass. It was even perceptible at one nanogram that's

0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.080
<v Speaker 1>one billionth of a gram per glass. So even at

0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 1>the smallest concentrations, the compound was described as unpleasant and

0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.840
<v Speaker 1>as an off flavor. At higher concentrations it was perceived

0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.480
<v Speaker 1>as a loud off flavor. And so the author's right quote.

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 1>This supports the observation that one fly spoils a glass

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 1>of wine after falling into it. I did. It is

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.040
<v Speaker 1>of the female sex, so it wouldn't just be the

0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.480
<v Speaker 1>conceptual gross out of having a fly fall in your wine.

0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.959
<v Speaker 1>You wouldn't have to think through, Oh this could be

0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.480
<v Speaker 1>a disease vector, or oh it's grossing me out for

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.240
<v Speaker 1>this reason or another. Just if it's a female fly,

0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 1>just the smell of it could be repellent enough that

0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.840
<v Speaker 1>you would detect it and you would find the glass

0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.680
<v Speaker 1>revolting afterwards. Interesting. So that's the funny part of the study. Obviously,

0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.960
<v Speaker 1>you've got wine wine tasters like sniffing glasses with flies

0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.319
<v Speaker 1>in them, right, and everybody loves up. I mean, anytime

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.080
<v Speaker 1>there's a scientific article about wine or wine tasting, uh,

0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:41.000
<v Speaker 1>people tend to read it, even if it's relatively unamusing.

0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.599
<v Speaker 1>But I actually would love to do another episode in

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.560
<v Speaker 1>the future just on wine and wine tasting, and not

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 1>only the like the biological aspects, but of course the

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.559
<v Speaker 1>psychological aspects. We have an older episode of stuff to

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.120
<v Speaker 1>blow your mind that went into it a little bit,

0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.480
<v Speaker 1>but I feel like didn't really give the the the

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.439
<v Speaker 1>importance of of of priming and the psychological weight of

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.440
<v Speaker 1>of wine tasting. You know, your expectations, the story that's

0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>told about it, etcetera. I would be more than happy

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 1>to come back to that. Uh. So that's the funny part.

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.240
<v Speaker 1>The funny part is them sniffing flies. The interesting question, though,

0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 1>is why why are humans so sensitive to Z four

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 1>eleven A l It's this compound that's very relevant to

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.160
<v Speaker 1>the lives of these vinegar flies. Right, So, if you're

0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 1>a drosophila, this this compound is super important to your

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>mating process. But why do humans find it repellent in

0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 1>food consumption contexts? The answer to this question is not

0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 1>currently known. It's not clear that this compound is of

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 1>any biological significance to humans. So the author's hypothesized, well,

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 1>let's see what could be the reasons. Maybe it's reminiscent

0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 1>they say, of quote other food alde hides, so like

0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 1>our sensitivity to it could be part of a general

0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:01.120
<v Speaker 1>food hunting olfactory package. But then again, why would it

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.760
<v Speaker 1>repel us in the context of wine? And we know

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 1>that sometimes some food smells can be attractive in one

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 1>context and repellent in another, like certain smells associated with cheese. Right, Yeah,

0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.880
<v Speaker 1>there have been some wonderful studies that have shown that

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>if you smell the same thing, if you're told that

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.240
<v Speaker 1>it's a shoe, you'll be grossed out. If you're told

0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.880
<v Speaker 1>that it's it's a cheese, then you'll run grab some crackers. Delicious, Yeah,

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 1>And I suspect that same smell which would seem to

0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.480
<v Speaker 1>be delicious on a cheese, if you smelled it on, like,

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, a bunch of strawberries or something, you

0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.480
<v Speaker 1>would probably think something was wrong with them. You'd be

0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.200
<v Speaker 1>grossed out. But I don't know that that's just my

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm supposing. But then again, they also hypothesize. The authors

0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 1>do that the human sensitivity could exist in order to

0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 1>quote avert ingestion of fruit that is infested with vinegar flies, which,

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 1>as we were talking about earlier, can of course be

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.080
<v Speaker 1>covered in microbes and can easily be a disease vector.

0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 1>But at this time we just don't know the answer.

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 1>We don't know why this smell is so salient to humans.

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.400
<v Speaker 1>You would think there need to be a reason for that,

0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 1>but we don't know what it is. Also, the authors

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.240
<v Speaker 1>note that Z four eleven a L is of course

0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 1>found in citrus essential oils. For example, it's part of

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 1>the smell of clementines, and the authors point out that

0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 1>it could play a double role in signaling, not just

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.240
<v Speaker 1>as a sign of food, but as a sign of

0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.040
<v Speaker 1>of social significance. For example, mate location or territory marking

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.520
<v Speaker 1>in not just flies, but other animals as well, coming

0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 1>back to this theme that the same compound that's uh,

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 1>that's very significant to one animal could be significant but

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 1>have a totally different meaning to a different animal. And

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 1>ultimately the authors proposed at the end that they just

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 1>want more research to provide a deeper understanding sort of

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.320
<v Speaker 1>of the the ecology of smells, the way volatile compounds

0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.720
<v Speaker 1>connect different organisms to one another, and they write quote

0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:53.760
<v Speaker 1>a future challenges to extend functional behavioral, ecological, and phylogenetic

0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 1>studies to include vertebrates toward an understanding of the chemical

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 1>vocabulary that interconnects us with other living things. This is

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.399
<v Speaker 1>a great um uh prize winner for the Igno Bells.

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.120
<v Speaker 1>I think because it touches on tours for for starters,

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:14.560
<v Speaker 1>it has that obvious, funny mental image of someone smelling

0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.520
<v Speaker 1>the wine and saying, there's a fly in this. But

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 1>then it does get into this, like the deeper roll

0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:25.000
<v Speaker 1>of these chemical signals and and the mystery of exactly

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 1>why they're setting us off like this. Uh, there there's

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.600
<v Speaker 1>a mystery to it. Yeah. I liked this one a lot. Alright,

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 1>on that note, we're gonna take a quick break and

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.840
<v Speaker 1>when we come back we will look at another two

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:41.320
<v Speaker 1>thousand eighteen Ignoble Prize winner. Than alright, we're back, al right,

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 1>So I'm I want to talk about the Reproductive Medicine Prize. Okay,

0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.200
<v Speaker 1>So this I like how they have a special category

0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 1>for reproductive medicine because stuff in there. Yeah, yeah, because there,

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.320
<v Speaker 1>it's gonna be a lot of essentially a lot of

0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 1>penis jokes, I think are the typical winners. I'm gonna

0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 1>have to look back at some past winner is to

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.320
<v Speaker 1>to make sure that's the case, but it's certainly the

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.479
<v Speaker 1>case with with this particular winner. The title of the

0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>study that is honored is Nocturnal penile uh to me

0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.840
<v Speaker 1>essence monitoring with stamps stamps like postage stamps, Yes, with

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.720
<v Speaker 1>postage stamps kind you get in the post office exactly.

0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 1>And this is was published in Neurology back in nineteen

0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:27.960
<v Speaker 1>eighty by authors that Barry blank In Boulou. So for

0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.520
<v Speaker 1>this one, we're gonna have to talk a little bit

0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:34.200
<v Speaker 1>about nocturnal penile too me essence or mpt is. It's

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.480
<v Speaker 1>also known exactly what is this this is? Of course

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.439
<v Speaker 1>morning would is that's kind of the colloquial term, right. Uh,

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 1>this is the common sling for it. This is often

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:50.439
<v Speaker 1>this is experienced by males, a waking and perhaps unexplained erection. Now,

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.560
<v Speaker 1>the interesting thing, of course, is that the stiffening of

0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.160
<v Speaker 1>the member in question is not the work of devilish

0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.879
<v Speaker 1>succubi or experimenting aliens. I'm sure have been blamed over

0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.639
<v Speaker 1>the years. So yeah, I think that obviously we just

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.520
<v Speaker 1>think of it. You have say, particularly if you have

0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 1>a pious individual, someone who is due to their particular

0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.840
<v Speaker 1>religious thinking, you know, ab whore the temptations of the

0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 1>flesh and um, you know, are staving off their their

0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.160
<v Speaker 1>primal hunger. What what does it mean when they're waking

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 1>up in the night or in the morning with a

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:29.640
<v Speaker 1>full erection like fully physic physiologically aroused. Uh, and had

0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.520
<v Speaker 1>to be a demon. It must be a demon. And

0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.640
<v Speaker 1>then of course in some cases there has been nocturnal emission,

0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.880
<v Speaker 1>there has been discharge, so it seems like some sort

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 1>of act has taken place, perhaps two. This is coupled

0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.359
<v Speaker 1>with dreams, so we have all sorts of of human

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.800
<v Speaker 1>complexities that are layered on top of that that can

0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 1>lead to some confusion. But but of course it's it's

0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 1>none of these things. It's not the work of the devil, etcetera.

0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.800
<v Speaker 1>In fact, you know, a healthy male experiences up to

0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.720
<v Speaker 1>five I've seen as high as like, I've seen three

0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.399
<v Speaker 1>to six also as a figure, but to say five

0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.199
<v Speaker 1>or six of these a night as part of his

0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.080
<v Speaker 1>regular R E. M. Sleep. In fact, m pt s

0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.760
<v Speaker 1>are so normal that doctors test for them when diagnosing

0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 1>erectile dysfunction because you know, think of it. If these

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.600
<v Speaker 1>directions occur on their own during the night, then the

0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:23.920
<v Speaker 1>patient's waking problem is likely a psychological rather than physiological. Yeah,

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that makes sense. Yeah, Now you might be wondering the

0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.720
<v Speaker 1>why do they why do they happen at all? Good question. Yeah, Well,

0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.600
<v Speaker 1>since they occur during the rim cycle, there's always the

0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.320
<v Speaker 1>potential for sexually charged dream tie in, but it's not necessary.

0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.280
<v Speaker 1>The main IMPT theories actually have nothing to do with

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 1>dreams at all. Rather that the body maybe oxygenating the

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 1>penile tissue as a sort and of a sort of

0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.440
<v Speaker 1>maintenance procedure, and the stimulant for this is thought to

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.280
<v Speaker 1>be the release of nitric oxide by nerve fibers in

0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.000
<v Speaker 1>the penis. Oh, and then there's also the full bladder

0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.119
<v Speaker 1>bladder ankle as well. The two often occur together and

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.440
<v Speaker 1>scientists have have taken note of this as well. So,

0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.679
<v Speaker 1>for instance, a mail will wake up in the morning

0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.560
<v Speaker 1>uh there is an erection and at the same time

0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:11.199
<v Speaker 1>they perhaps illogically it seems, need to urinate pretty badly

0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.960
<v Speaker 1>as well. So some theories view uh impt or morning

0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 1>wood is the body's anti bed wedding is the one

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.199
<v Speaker 1>of the body's anti bed wedding measures and perhaps a

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>wake up call to the sleeper himself. So this particular

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.679
<v Speaker 1>study study with the stamps, it has to do with

0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.520
<v Speaker 1>mpt s role in figuring out what's going on with

0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 1>erectile dysfunction, not with where the mail is, right, yeah, no, no,

0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 1>the postage is not intended for mailing purposes because but

0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.560
<v Speaker 1>again think about it, aside from self reporting, how do

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.080
<v Speaker 1>you figure out if a patient's if a patient has

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.719
<v Speaker 1>experienced and erection during the night, Because so, I mean,

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 1>I guess you could like have them come into a

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.560
<v Speaker 1>clinic overnight, right, right, Yeah, you could do some sort

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.919
<v Speaker 1>of observation, but you know, there are a couple of

0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 1>problems with that as costly you're having you're asking them

0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.200
<v Speaker 1>to sleep somewhere else, or you're I guess you could

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.600
<v Speaker 1>say you're think about putting somebody in their room to

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.639
<v Speaker 1>watch them sleep. These are just not good solutions, and

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.480
<v Speaker 1>you're also disrupting their life. You're sort of disrupting the

0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.479
<v Speaker 1>like then their natural sleep cycles potentially by doing this.

0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.960
<v Speaker 1>So there have been a few different methods to figure

0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.360
<v Speaker 1>out what's going on with the penis steering sleep. One

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.560
<v Speaker 1>MATHOD method that has been employed is ridges scan. So

0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.560
<v Speaker 1>this is a battery powered instrument that places one loop

0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 1>around the base of the penis and the other at

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 1>the tip, and these loops tighten every fifteen, two or

0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:37.160
<v Speaker 1>thirty seconds. And the recording unit itself that is attached

0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 1>to these two loops that straps to the wast to

0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 1>the thigh, so it regularly tests to see how engorged

0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.760
<v Speaker 1>and rigid the member is throughout the night. Sounds cumbersome.

0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.639
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to, you know, cast maybe that's a

0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.600
<v Speaker 1>very useful device. Yeah, I looked at a picture of it.

0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it doesn't look that bad. It doesn't if

0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.720
<v Speaker 1>it sounds torturous, it does not look torturous. The other

0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 1>method is this popular as the penal plethysmic graph. This

0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.439
<v Speaker 1>is a pulse volume recorder wired to a penile cuff

0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:10.399
<v Speaker 1>that measures blood flow. I know I've heard about things

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.480
<v Speaker 1>like this being used in studies that are trying to

0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 1>detect physiological signs of sexual arousal right, I believe this

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:18.680
<v Speaker 1>is This one, for instance, comes up in silence of

0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 1>the lambs. I believe it's like something that they would

0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:23.399
<v Speaker 1>put on someone and show them films of horrible things

0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.720
<v Speaker 1>and see if they're sexually aroused by them. Yeah. So

0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.880
<v Speaker 1>these methods, these two methods we discussed are are pretty accurate,

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.840
<v Speaker 1>uh and and are generally considered more accurate I understand

0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.399
<v Speaker 1>than the stamps method. But back in the researchers in

0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:42.159
<v Speaker 1>question uh presented the Stamp method uh quote. A Stamp

0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 1>technique was developed to detect complete nocturnal erections for the

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 1>evaluation of impotence. The test correctly detected complete nocturnal erections

0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:55.000
<v Speaker 1>in twenty two potent men and absence of complete nocturnal

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 1>erections in eleven impotent men. This is a simple, useful

0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.280
<v Speaker 1>screening test for organic impotence. So the idea here is

0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.679
<v Speaker 1>fairly simple. You take a ring of postage stamps, so

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:07.680
<v Speaker 1>they haven't been separated, and you know they have the

0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.880
<v Speaker 1>perforated edges, you know, so they pop apart easily. So

0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 1>you take this this ring of stamps and you fix

0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:18.080
<v Speaker 1>them around the penis uh in its non erect uh

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.640
<v Speaker 1>nin gorged state, and then the individual goes to sleep.

0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:23.359
<v Speaker 1>The subject goes to sleep. In the next morning, they

0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:26.720
<v Speaker 1>check for breakage if the stamps, If that ring of

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:29.920
<v Speaker 1>stamps has broken, and again it should ideally break easily

0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:32.560
<v Speaker 1>because of the perforations uh, this will be a sign

0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>that an erection has occurred. And this has some key advantages. Right,

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.080
<v Speaker 1>it's a low cost. Just the cost of postage. Basically,

0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.160
<v Speaker 1>the cost of postage goes way up. Right, it's gonna

0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 1>there's gonna be a regional determined and determined they're also

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, don't don't buy rare stamps just by the

0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:51.119
<v Speaker 1>forever stamps. I guess somebody doing it with like the

0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.960
<v Speaker 1>thousands of dollars of stamp collector stamps. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,

0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.400
<v Speaker 1>don't use this, but yeah, it's low cost. You can

0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and also can be self administered with ease. You don't

0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 1>even you don't even necessarily have to have a doctor

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.760
<v Speaker 1>involved there, right, so that's part of the appeal. Doesn't

0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:07.800
<v Speaker 1>sound too dangerous, No, yeah, it's going to break apart

0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:10.640
<v Speaker 1>the stamps is so you don't have to worry about

0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:14.200
<v Speaker 1>like constriction so much. The only real risk, of course,

0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:18.760
<v Speaker 1>is accidentally mailing the penis. But that's a joke. Now.

0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Some studies have backed up the effectiveness of this particular method.

0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:27.199
<v Speaker 1>Paper titled Nocturnal penal too essence Monitoring with stamps in

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.919
<v Speaker 1>Impotent Diabetics found that quote, the diagnostic value of this

0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:34.080
<v Speaker 1>method is nearly the same as that of MPT recording

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:38.359
<v Speaker 1>with a strain gauge, and that's from diabetics research and

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:43.359
<v Speaker 1>clinical practice. However, the problem with the stamp method is

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:45.879
<v Speaker 1>that there's always the chance that shifting around in one

0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:50.119
<v Speaker 1>sleep will simply tear the perforated edges. There's a strip

0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:53.240
<v Speaker 1>of tear the stamps without an erection taking place at all,

0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 1>and that would give you a false positive, a type

0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:58.600
<v Speaker 1>one error, right, and then it's yeah, But then the

0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.159
<v Speaker 1>problem there is is if you're trying to treat some

0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:04.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of uh um, you know, impotent scenario, then you

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:07.520
<v Speaker 1>start treating as if it's psychological when it's really a

0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:12.800
<v Speaker 1>physiological ailment, So that's the risk. So why is this important, Well,

0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.919
<v Speaker 1>because erectile dysfunction is legitimate medical concern, and it's funny

0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 1>because it involves a penis in mourning wood, and these

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:23.679
<v Speaker 1>are inherently funny tens and stamps like stamps and penis. Uh,

0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:26.440
<v Speaker 1>it's really I mean, in retrospect, it's kind of surprising

0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:31.040
<v Speaker 1>it took the ignal Bells this long to honor these researchers. Well, Robert,

0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:33.399
<v Speaker 1>that one made me laugh and even sort of a

0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.400
<v Speaker 1>little bit made me think. It's good to think about.

0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:39.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, what are the what are the maybe not

0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:45.320
<v Speaker 1>as perfectly effective, but cost effective, safe things people can

0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:50.119
<v Speaker 1>do to substitute for expensive medical tests. Obviously, sometimes you're

0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.800
<v Speaker 1>going to value accuracy over you know, cost effectiveness and

0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that. But with with some of these things,

0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:57.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, it seems like it's worth doing a cheap

0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:00.320
<v Speaker 1>test before you spring for the expensive test. Yeah, it

0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:02.120
<v Speaker 1>makes sense to me. I should add that I also

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.040
<v Speaker 1>saw a criticism of the stamp test, being that we're

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 1>entering an age where there people have decreased access to

0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:13.280
<v Speaker 1>traditional stamps, and so that could be a potential problem.

0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:15.520
<v Speaker 1>The doctor says you need to get some stamps for

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 1>your penis. And then your response is what are stamps?

0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:23.640
<v Speaker 1>Couldn't the urologist to just have medical stamps? Like they

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.159
<v Speaker 1>could have stamps that you value at all? Or I

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.320
<v Speaker 1>guess it probably probably be over the counter. Would they

0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:31.640
<v Speaker 1>need to keep that behind the counter yet? But then

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.560
<v Speaker 1>what about the embarrassment when you accidentally try and mail

0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:37.800
<v Speaker 1>um something? You start mailing your Christmas cards and the

0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.280
<v Speaker 1>medical stamps my medical penis stamps? Do they say penis

0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:45.480
<v Speaker 1>stamps on them? Like? That's totally warning? Medical penis stamp,

0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.159
<v Speaker 1>no postage value? Oh, I think we need to go

0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 1>to another one. Okay, let's move on. Okay, I want

0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>to do one that we can look at pretty quick.

0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:57.360
<v Speaker 1>Uh quick question, Robert, do you read the user manual

0:27:57.440 --> 0:27:59.640
<v Speaker 1>when you buy a thing and it comes with a manual?

0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 1>I guess it depends on the thing. It also depends

0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:05.439
<v Speaker 1>on how excited about the thing I am, versus like

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:08.720
<v Speaker 1>how much just pure drudgery is the thing? Does being

0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:10.840
<v Speaker 1>excited to make you more or less likely to read

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:13.159
<v Speaker 1>the manual? If I'm more excited, then I'll probably be

0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 1>more likely to read than the manual because I want

0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:17.440
<v Speaker 1>to know how it works. It's like, it's the thing's

0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 1>functionality is uh, you know, I want to be it

0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 1>to be a part of me. Where if it's something

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:26.399
<v Speaker 1>like a refrigerator, like I know how refrigerator works, and

0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:28.520
<v Speaker 1>I really I don't want any more details. They just

0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.000
<v Speaker 1>wanted to work, that's all I ask. Do you read

0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:33.359
<v Speaker 1>the owner's manual when you get a new car, like

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 1>Arnold Schwartzeningger and Twins. Did he do that? Yeah, he's like, Uh.

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:39.800
<v Speaker 1>There's a scene where they're riding around in a car

0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 1>and Arnold Schwarzenegger is reading through some book and he's

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.520
<v Speaker 1>and Danny de Vito asked him what he's doing, and

0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:49.720
<v Speaker 1>he's like, I'm learning to drive. Um, it's been a

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>long time since I've seen that. I might not be

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 1>remembering correctly, but I think that's pretty dead on. Uh No,

0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 1>A lot of times I don't read the manual either.

0:28:57.200 --> 0:28:59.600
<v Speaker 1>I especially love it when there are manuals for things

0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:02.400
<v Speaker 1>like the refrigerator that you just don't need a manual for.

0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.360
<v Speaker 1>It's like, if you don't automatically know how to use

0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:08.720
<v Speaker 1>this thing, you're in trouble, right, And I'm not authorized

0:29:08.920 --> 0:29:11.760
<v Speaker 1>to fix most things, and and it is. If it

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:14.480
<v Speaker 1>is something I can fix, then yes, maybe I'll pop

0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:16.600
<v Speaker 1>up in the manual if I know where the manual is.

0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:19.520
<v Speaker 1>User manuals are sometimes worth looking at just to see

0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>if there's any hilarious bad writing or bad translation. Yeah,

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that can be fun, you know. Actually, I will take

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.520
<v Speaker 1>one thing back. One item that I did read the

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:35.080
<v Speaker 1>entire user manual for was the insta. Oh I've got

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 1>one of those. That's great free plug. They did not

0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:39.600
<v Speaker 1>pay us for this. Yeah, I love it. It helps me.

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:42.000
<v Speaker 1>It's as you mostly use it as like a rice

0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:45.480
<v Speaker 1>and bean cooker, but it was one of these devices.

0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:46.640
<v Speaker 1>When I got it, I was like, all right, I

0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:48.760
<v Speaker 1>have no idea how this works. I need to know

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:50.560
<v Speaker 1>how this works. I guess I'm gonna read the user

0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:52.600
<v Speaker 1>manual and uh, and then I was good to go.

0:29:52.840 --> 0:29:55.240
<v Speaker 1>I know you all don't often meet at home, but

0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 1>if you're ever making like a like a you know,

0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 1>tough pork or beef dish or something like that is

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:05.160
<v Speaker 1>just fantastic heart, human heart that you need to tenderize.

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:07.360
<v Speaker 1>Real good. It's it's great for that. It's really good

0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:11.520
<v Speaker 1>for lentil dishes. It's the lentils, real nice and like

0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:14.440
<v Speaker 1>they keep their their texture and and shape, but they

0:30:14.440 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 1>get tender. It's great. Yeah, yeah, we've definitely used it

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:19.680
<v Speaker 1>on some lentils. Okay, okay, but we're getting distracted. Just

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 1>gushion about our pots. The Literature Prize of the lfls

0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 1>IS was given to THEA. Blackler, Raphael Gomez, Vestna Popovic,

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:34.960
<v Speaker 1>and m Helen Thompson quote for documenting that most people

0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:38.360
<v Speaker 1>who use complicated products do not read the instruction manual.

0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:41.080
<v Speaker 1>And this was a paper called Life's Too Short to

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:44.680
<v Speaker 1>r t f M. I think that's read the field manual,

0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:49.600
<v Speaker 1>that not another F modifier. How users relate to documentation

0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 1>and excess features in consumer products. So this study investigated

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 1>people's relationship with two aspects of consumer products, number of

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 1>features in an interface and product documentation the manual. So

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:04.760
<v Speaker 1>the authors did two sets of studies to look at

0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:08.200
<v Speaker 1>the manuals and the excess features in common household products

0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:11.240
<v Speaker 1>and they're right quote. The quantitative set was a series

0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:13.960
<v Speaker 1>of questionnaires administered to a hundred and seventy people over

0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:17.840
<v Speaker 1>seven years. The qualitative set consisted of two six month

0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:21.760
<v Speaker 1>longitudinal studies based on diaries and interviews, with a total

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.520
<v Speaker 1>of fifteen participants, and here's what they found. First of all,

0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 1>most people don't read the manual, and most people do

0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 1>not use all the features on the products they have.

0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Quote people claim to read the manual and use all

0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 1>of the features of many common domestic and personal products

0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:38.760
<v Speaker 1>only twenty percent of the time. I have to add

0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:42.320
<v Speaker 1>that clearly. One of the reasons that this study was

0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:44.480
<v Speaker 1>was honored is that it it does something that the

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:48.160
<v Speaker 1>ignoble prizes frequently like it it it points out something

0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:52.520
<v Speaker 1>that is blatantly obvious and backs it up with scientific rigor.

0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:55.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, I actually like studies like that. People react

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:59.480
<v Speaker 1>on social media when there's like a study that shows

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:03.880
<v Speaker 1>to wrecked evidence of something that should seem obvious, and

0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 1>then people respond like, oh, why do you have to

0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.680
<v Speaker 1>do a study on that that's obvious? No, it's I

0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:12.440
<v Speaker 1>mean all the time we have beliefs about things that

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:15.840
<v Speaker 1>seem obvious, but they're in fact not true. Tons of

0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:19.000
<v Speaker 1>things that you think are obvious are false. And when

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:21.560
<v Speaker 1>a study shows you that something you think is obvious

0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:26.480
<v Speaker 1>is actually backed up by evidence, that's valuable information. So anyway,

0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:29.600
<v Speaker 1>rant end on that. But so, but this this one

0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 1>might be less less life and death than some of

0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 1>these things that people think are obvious. But I do

0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 1>think it's kind of interesting about a relationship with our products. Okay,

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:41.240
<v Speaker 1>so here's another question. Most people don't read the manual

0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:44.240
<v Speaker 1>and don't use all of the features on complicated products.

0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 1>But who actually does read the manual? Who's more and

0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:50.320
<v Speaker 1>less likely in terms of like the demographics. Turns out

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:53.320
<v Speaker 1>women are less likely than men to read the manual

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:57.320
<v Speaker 1>and use all the features. Uh. Young people are less

0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:00.200
<v Speaker 1>likely than middle aged and older people to read the

0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:03.640
<v Speaker 1>manual and use all the features, and more educated people

0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:07.440
<v Speaker 1>are less likely to read the manual. Ok So, I

0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:10.840
<v Speaker 1>don't know if these If these groups actually compound on

0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:13.560
<v Speaker 1>top of each other, I'm not sure whether that's the case,

0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 1>but if they do, you would say, statistically, the person

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:20.959
<v Speaker 1>most likely to read the manual is like a lower education,

0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:24.920
<v Speaker 1>older male, and statistically the person least likely to read

0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the manual is a higher education, younger woman. Also, people

0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:34.200
<v Speaker 1>do not like excess features on a product interface. Uh So,

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:38.000
<v Speaker 1>excess features, they say, quote, are associated with negative affect,

0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 1>whereas core features are associated with positive affect. Again, this

0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.520
<v Speaker 1>might be kind of obvious, but people don't really like

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:46.880
<v Speaker 1>all the bells and whistles. They like a product to

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.200
<v Speaker 1>be good at the main thing it's supposed to do.

0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 1>So I wonder how most people feel about those food

0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 1>specific buttons on microwaves. Like those things well whatever the

0:33:57.080 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 1>other The popcorn is the only one I've ever attempted

0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:01.120
<v Speaker 1>to use, and I usually and I have only used

0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:04.160
<v Speaker 1>it like once, and I burned popcorn. Yeah, so I

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:07.320
<v Speaker 1>just I just do my own thing. I could not

0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:10.560
<v Speaker 1>tell you what the those buttons on my microwave say,

0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Like there could be one that says human flesh, and

0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 1>there could be another one that says, like, I don't know,

0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:18.239
<v Speaker 1>a bucket full of lollipops, and I wouldn't know. I

0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 1>didn't looked at them. I didn't figure out how the

0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:23.840
<v Speaker 1>power percentage on my microwave worked until like the last

0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:28.919
<v Speaker 1>year or two. Yeah, but then I started noticing, oh wait,

0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:33.240
<v Speaker 1>this actually, this particular microwave dish requires that I use power.

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:34.640
<v Speaker 1>How do I do that? And then I have to

0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:36.880
<v Speaker 1>figure it out. But I never looked at the manual.

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 1>I stuck to my guns on that one. So you

0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 1>actually follow instructions on microwavable meals. You don't just press

0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:45.400
<v Speaker 1>six six six like a lot of people do. I

0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:47.399
<v Speaker 1>didn't know if people did that, and some sometimes people

0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:49.880
<v Speaker 1>do that. I mean, that's as solid, solid choice, good number,

0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:55.040
<v Speaker 1>steady tradition in my family. Um No, I think it

0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:57.560
<v Speaker 1>usually comes out better if you follow the instructions. That's

0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:01.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of like reading the manual. Also, people hate having

0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.960
<v Speaker 1>to consult the manual to figure out how to use something.

0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Quote reading of manuals appears to cause annoyance and negative

0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:13.440
<v Speaker 1>emotional experiences unquote. On average, people just want their products

0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:15.880
<v Speaker 1>to be self explanatory. They do not want to have

0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:18.040
<v Speaker 1>to read all that stuff and deal with a bunch

0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:20.799
<v Speaker 1>of extra features and settings. They want stuff to be

0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:23.600
<v Speaker 1>easy and intuitive, and they don't want to read manuals.

0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 1>So I wonder what companies should learn from this, Like

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:28.560
<v Speaker 1>is there something Is there a lesson here for the

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:32.080
<v Speaker 1>creation of manuals or the or the creation of of

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:36.360
<v Speaker 1>alternative materials regarding the use of their products. That's a

0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:40.239
<v Speaker 1>good question. Um. I mean, generally, I think it should

0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:43.640
<v Speaker 1>be the case that if it's possible for you to

0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:47.560
<v Speaker 1>make an interface a product interface self evident, like it

0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.279
<v Speaker 1>should just be obvious how the product works and how

0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:52.480
<v Speaker 1>you're supposed to use it. You should do that. Now,

0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:55.000
<v Speaker 1>obviously you can't always do that. They're gonna be lots

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:58.839
<v Speaker 1>of kinds of features of products that are more complicated.

0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:02.680
<v Speaker 1>They can't just be totally obvious on the interface. Uh So,

0:36:02.760 --> 0:36:04.520
<v Speaker 1>in that case, I don't know what you're supposed to do.

0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Maybe you're just going to have people being frustrated. Maybe

0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the idea is that all products should contain sort of

0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 1>to whatever extint possible kind of walk through features, right

0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:18.160
<v Speaker 1>like they don't. You don't have to go look at

0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:20.400
<v Speaker 1>the manual. It just asks you what you want to

0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:23.040
<v Speaker 1>do and helps you do it. I walk through, but

0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:25.279
<v Speaker 1>who wants to do that? No, that's like, that's really

0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:27.240
<v Speaker 1>annoying to I don't want to do like a robotic

0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:29.279
<v Speaker 1>walk through with my new microwave. I just want to

0:36:29.360 --> 0:36:31.919
<v Speaker 1>use it when I have to write, Yeah, I don't

0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:34.360
<v Speaker 1>know what to do. But do you want to burn popcorn?

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 1>We're doing it either way exactly. All right, Well, on

0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:42.120
<v Speaker 1>that note, let's move on to our next award winning study.

0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Let's let's talk peace. Okay. This is theeen Ignoble Peace

0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Prize was awarded to Francisco Alonso, Christina Esteban, Andrea Serge

0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Maria Luisa Balistar, him Ace San Martin, Constanza Cataloud, Beatriz

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Alama are Oh and Beatriz Lamar for measuring the frequency, motivation,

0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:06.520
<v Speaker 1>and effects of shouting and cursing while driving an automot

0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:09.399
<v Speaker 1>UH and there are a couple of references here, one

0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:14.080
<v Speaker 1>of the Journal of Sociology and Anthropology from UH. Francisco

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Alonso attended the ceremony, but the author's right that quote.

0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Evidence has shown that drivers who usually express aggressive behaviors

0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:23.320
<v Speaker 1>more frequently tend at the same time to have higher

0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.759
<v Speaker 1>rates of road crashes or traffic incidents. And so the

0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:30.280
<v Speaker 1>situations in which aggressive behaviors arise tend to be very common,

0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:34.160
<v Speaker 1>meaning that driver aggression is potentially a major traffic safety issue.

0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:37.360
<v Speaker 1>And the authors administered a number of survey questions to

0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Spanish drivers over the age of fourteen to figure out

0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:45.160
<v Speaker 1>their perceptions and attitudes about aggressive driving behaviors like shouting

0:37:45.400 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 1>and insulting behind the wheel. And so I found a

0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:51.600
<v Speaker 1>long form version of this. That I don't know is

0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:54.200
<v Speaker 1>that it seems like the long form version I found

0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 1>is not the study itself, but is a summary that

0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:01.080
<v Speaker 1>was published after the prize was awarded. Because it's got

0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:05.200
<v Speaker 1>some really funny uh statements in the conclusions, such as,

0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:08.160
<v Speaker 1>let us also remember that people who use cars to

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:10.880
<v Speaker 1>make love as well, which is clearly better than eventually

0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:15.080
<v Speaker 1>using them to get get us killed. Uh. And also,

0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:17.800
<v Speaker 1>as it happens with these prizes, we need to support

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 1>laughters because they are not compatible with certain negative emotional states,

0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and for sure they will lead us to peace. Well,

0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:26.720
<v Speaker 1>that's a nice sentiment. Just to look at the data

0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:29.200
<v Speaker 1>real quickly that they come up with. They say that

0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.480
<v Speaker 1>about twenty six point four percent of people of drivers

0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 1>admit that they sometimes insult other drivers or shout while

0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:40.160
<v Speaker 1>driving forty one point six percent, So they never do it.

0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:45.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I almost never do it, but sometimes

0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:47.440
<v Speaker 1>they really get to you. It's a real struggle for me,

0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:49.960
<v Speaker 1>especially when I'm in the car driving the boy around.

0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:54.480
<v Speaker 1>And uh, I'm really good at watching my language the

0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:56.759
<v Speaker 1>rest of the time, I think, but when him in

0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the car, it's a little harder. Luckily he mishears me.

0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, um, for a while he was convinced. Hopefully

0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:05.960
<v Speaker 1>he's still convinced that I sometimes refer to other drivers

0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:09.799
<v Speaker 1>as funky's uh, and I should really try to do

0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 1>that instead of what I am saying that that's a

0:39:12.160 --> 0:39:15.040
<v Speaker 1>good one. Funkies, you know it's just funky driving. Yeah.

0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Uh quick. Look also at the data about a reasons

0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 1>people self reported to initiate some shouting or insulting other drivers.

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Top one with twenty two point five percent was reaction

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.879
<v Speaker 1>to breaking a rule, So when somebody else breaks a road,

0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:33.560
<v Speaker 1>that's when you will shake my finger at them. Yes.

0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:39.399
<v Speaker 1>Also next at twenty one four percent, reaction to dangerous maneuvers,

0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:43.399
<v Speaker 1>so when other people behave recklessly. Uh. Then below that

0:39:43.560 --> 0:39:46.440
<v Speaker 1>at thirteen point six percent, the other driver puts me

0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:50.320
<v Speaker 1>in danger. Also at thirteen point six percent, just stress,

0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:54.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, stress. But that's that's people being self conscious

0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:56.440
<v Speaker 1>right there, they're admitting, yes, stress probably just makes me

0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.759
<v Speaker 1>do it. Other reasons are below that. Uh. And then

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.560
<v Speaker 1>finally one point three percent of people say they do

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:08.200
<v Speaker 1>it because quote everybody does it. Now something that's not

0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:10.480
<v Speaker 1>reflecting this study. I just want to throw in. I

0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:15.440
<v Speaker 1>recently watched The ice Cream Manes horror film starring Clint Howard,

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 1>and Clint Howard apparently drove around yelling in his car

0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:22.279
<v Speaker 1>in order to get his voice nice and raspy for

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.160
<v Speaker 1>the role so it's possible that that person you think

0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:28.040
<v Speaker 1>is driving angry, it's just Clint Howard preparing for a

0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:30.640
<v Speaker 1>leading role method acting. Yeah, all right, we need to

0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:32.399
<v Speaker 1>take a quick break, but we will be right back

0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:38.200
<v Speaker 1>with more ignobles. Thank alright, we're back. Well, Robert, is

0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:40.799
<v Speaker 1>it time for the Economics Prize? It is, which you know,

0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:43.759
<v Speaker 1>the Economics Prize. It might not sound exciting, but this

0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:45.600
<v Speaker 1>is a pretty good one. It's often one of the

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:49.760
<v Speaker 1>funniest ones. Yeah, because I think it's because it plays

0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:53.480
<v Speaker 1>well with humor. Because you think Economics Prize, you think, uh,

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.840
<v Speaker 1>something dry and stuffy and uh And in most cases

0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:00.200
<v Speaker 1>they'll find something that has an instant does that as

0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:02.160
<v Speaker 1>in this case, the pozzas comes in the form of

0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:06.560
<v Speaker 1>voodoo dolls. Nice. Uh so the uh, the the particular

0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:09.960
<v Speaker 1>paper here this honored is titled writing a wrong Retaliation

0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 1>on a Voodoo Doll symbolizing an abusive supervisor Restores Justice

0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.719
<v Speaker 1>And this was by Laying at All published in the

0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:22.200
<v Speaker 1>Leadership Quarterly February. Do you think this study was funded

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:24.719
<v Speaker 1>by big voodoo? No, and I'll get to that in

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:27.839
<v Speaker 1>a minute. Really, really that there's virtually no voodoo in

0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.960
<v Speaker 1>any of this, there's a sort of a metaphorical voodoo doll.

0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, there. There's no Afro American religion or folklore

0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:38.440
<v Speaker 1>in this particular study at all, but it does a

0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:41.279
<v Speaker 1>center around a reality that a lot of us have

0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:44.759
<v Speaker 1>been forced to face over the years, unfortunately, and that

0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:52.120
<v Speaker 1>is abusive supervisor figures. Terrible bosses, mean bosses, They exist,

0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:55.000
<v Speaker 1>they do. I've been I've been lucky. I haven't had

0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:59.239
<v Speaker 1>an abusive boss at least in a long time, but

0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:02.040
<v Speaker 1>I I did have one briefly at one point. I

0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:05.879
<v Speaker 1>remember it being pretty horrible to work under them. What

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:09.000
<v Speaker 1>what is counting as an abusive supervisor here? Is this

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:12.839
<v Speaker 1>like like really egregious abuses or just like being a jerk? Well,

0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:15.200
<v Speaker 1>it can cover a wide variety of things. Uh. It

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:18.160
<v Speaker 1>could be punching holes in walls. It could be Um,

0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.879
<v Speaker 1>it could be just yelling at at subordinates that sort

0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:26.360
<v Speaker 1>of thing. Their whole host of behaviors that fall under

0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:29.759
<v Speaker 1>this umbrella. Uh. And whether you're dealing with big, big

0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:31.920
<v Speaker 1>ones or supposedly little ones, I mean, it all can

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:35.000
<v Speaker 1>add up. It can all make make ones a work

0:42:35.080 --> 0:42:38.759
<v Speaker 1>life rather dismal. And then what are you gonna do? Right?

0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Hopefully you're gonna there's gonna be a system in place

0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:45.920
<v Speaker 1>like via HR to report such individuals. But as the

0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:48.879
<v Speaker 1>authors of this twenty team paper point out, there may

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 1>be attempt at temptation for reprisal in other words, to

0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>get revenge in some sense at the boss or superior

0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:02.879
<v Speaker 1>that is, uh, that is being horrible, but sort of

0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:06.359
<v Speaker 1>by the dynamics of the workplace, you can't really do that, right,

0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:09.160
<v Speaker 1>at least not in any kind of legitimate way, right,

0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:11.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, And that's something that they point out time

0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:15.400
<v Speaker 1>and time again, like they're they're not saying that reprisals

0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:18.960
<v Speaker 1>are good. Reprisals are bad. Reprisals only just add more

0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:23.560
<v Speaker 1>chaos to the workplace environment and cost the company money, etcetera.

0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.759
<v Speaker 1>But here's one of the things they had to say

0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:30.000
<v Speaker 1>in the study quote, when a subordinate receives abusive treatment

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:34.240
<v Speaker 1>from a supervisor, a natural response is to retaliate against

0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 1>the supervisor. Although retaliation is dysfunctional and should be discouraged,

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:42.239
<v Speaker 1>we examine the potential functional role retaliation plays in terms

0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:47.319
<v Speaker 1>of alleviating the negative consequences of abusive supervision or subordinate

0:43:47.400 --> 0:43:52.520
<v Speaker 1>justice perceptions. So, yeah, basically, the idea is, if you're

0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:56.640
<v Speaker 1>pushed down by a terrible boss, there is going to

0:43:56.680 --> 0:44:01.279
<v Speaker 1>be this natural incline, a shin to push back in

0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:03.759
<v Speaker 1>some way. Right, So is there some way you can

0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:07.399
<v Speaker 1>do that without making things worse for yourself and others? Right? Yeah?

0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.160
<v Speaker 1>Because I think a lot of times it is about that,

0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Like what would feel good right now? Like nothing would

0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:14.719
<v Speaker 1>feel better than to destroy the boss's bobble head? You know.

0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:17.680
<v Speaker 1>But as fun as it might look on the the

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:21.280
<v Speaker 1>office or some other television show or film, uh, it's

0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.959
<v Speaker 1>it's not really necessarily a good move in the long run. Still,

0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:29.840
<v Speaker 1>aggression against such supervisors is common as high as seventy

0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:34.360
<v Speaker 1>six according to a sited study in this paper, and

0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:37.840
<v Speaker 1>this is seemingly on par with aggressions towards co workers

0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:41.799
<v Speaker 1>as well, if not more prevalent. The authors point out

0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:45.080
<v Speaker 1>that the prevalence of retaliation suggests that retaliation may play

0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:48.520
<v Speaker 1>functional role in dealing with abuse, and there are various

0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.560
<v Speaker 1>theories as to why an adaptive response a way of

0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:55.879
<v Speaker 1>rebalancing the relationship, etcetera. So it could be I mean,

0:44:56.480 --> 0:44:58.799
<v Speaker 1>not to put thoughts in everyone's head, I guess on

0:44:58.880 --> 0:45:01.440
<v Speaker 1>this matter, but it could be as simple as okay

0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.680
<v Speaker 1>an otherwise okay, boss like raises their voice at you.

0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.360
<v Speaker 1>You feel a little hurt. Their bubble head takes a

0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:09.399
<v Speaker 1>little dive off the side of their table. You can

0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:11.879
<v Speaker 1>universe is restored, you know, because you're like, all right,

0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:13.719
<v Speaker 1>you yelled at me and I didn't really like that.

0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:16.680
<v Speaker 1>But the bubble head is dead now and you could

0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:19.799
<v Speaker 1>see that. It's like, okay, things are equal. How are

0:45:19.800 --> 0:45:22.479
<v Speaker 1>they really equal? Well, that depends on all the other

0:45:22.520 --> 0:45:26.320
<v Speaker 1>aspects of the the the office dynamics. So the authors

0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.960
<v Speaker 1>here they lay out a functional theory of retaliation, whereby

0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:34.520
<v Speaker 1>engaging in retaliation reaffirms one sense of justice and supervisor

0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:39.400
<v Speaker 1>abuse is the external stressor that violates one's expectations of

0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.439
<v Speaker 1>fair treatment. So to test this out, they made use

0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:46.799
<v Speaker 1>of an online voodoo doll representing an abuse of supervisor

0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:49.640
<v Speaker 1>and specifically in the wording of the paper. Uh, they

0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.279
<v Speaker 1>use what they would call a voodoo doll task or

0:45:52.400 --> 0:46:00.120
<v Speaker 1>vd T paradigm to manipulate retaliation. Get love that sterile terminology. Yeah, So,

0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:04.799
<v Speaker 1>so again, there's nothing actually related to any kind of folklore,

0:46:04.880 --> 0:46:08.120
<v Speaker 1>I or religious practice here, So it's not really a ritual.

0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 1>It's more just like the concept of enacting violence on

0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:15.279
<v Speaker 1>some kind of effigy, right, yeah, such as you know

0:46:15.400 --> 0:46:18.640
<v Speaker 1>very much the bubblehead in question. So the paper argues

0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:21.200
<v Speaker 1>that retaliation might be an important way in which we

0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:24.719
<v Speaker 1>deal with supervisor aggression, even though it should be discouraged

0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:28.040
<v Speaker 1>and only creates more problems. Quote. In particular, we have

0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 1>proposed and found that subordinate retaliation can directly influence subordinate

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:36.920
<v Speaker 1>justice perceptions. These findings suggest that retaliation not only benefits

0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:40.920
<v Speaker 1>individual victims, but may also benefit the organization as a whole,

0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:45.120
<v Speaker 1>given that justice perception is important for employee performance and

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:47.719
<v Speaker 1>well being. So this is kind of like having the

0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:52.640
<v Speaker 1>giving employees the illusion of some kind of retaliation, like

0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:54.759
<v Speaker 1>that they haven't actually done anything to the boss, but

0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:58.200
<v Speaker 1>if they just pretend they're retaliating, that that makes the

0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:02.719
<v Speaker 1>company a little more lubricated of things. Okay, they're not saying, hey,

0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:05.239
<v Speaker 1>you need to have a dunking booth every year, and

0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.680
<v Speaker 1>that's the only way you're gonna restore balance of your company.

0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 1>They say they take home is that is not that

0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:13.800
<v Speaker 1>companies should encourage retaliation, but they should include instead foster

0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:17.480
<v Speaker 1>quote subordinate justice perception. And one example of this is

0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:22.600
<v Speaker 1>having a zero tolerance policy against various abusive behaviors. They

0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:25.840
<v Speaker 1>also wonder if companies should rethink what is referred to

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.000
<v Speaker 1>as deviant subordinate behavior. This would be like breaking the

0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 1>bubble head because the individuals here, the the the subordinates

0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>that are acting out. They might be attempting to resolve

0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:40.840
<v Speaker 1>perceived injustices, and perhaps they really should be disciplined for

0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:43.520
<v Speaker 1>what they're doing, but perhaps it also points to other

0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:46.200
<v Speaker 1>issues in the workplace that have yet to be resolved.

0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:50.600
<v Speaker 1>So it's like you fire the guy for breaking the bubblehead,

0:47:50.640 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 1>or you make the guy who broke the bubblehead, you know,

0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:58.160
<v Speaker 1>take a some sort of anger management towards toys class. Uh,

0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:02.520
<v Speaker 1>but then you still have whatever the existing caustic dynamic

0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:07.560
<v Speaker 1>happened to be between the boss and the employees. What

0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:09.920
<v Speaker 1>do you do about that? Like that it remains unchecked.

0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:13.040
<v Speaker 1>So they're saying this, this kind of behavior could just

0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:15.319
<v Speaker 1>be a you know, a canary in the coal mine,

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:18.680
<v Speaker 1>I guess. So, then, was the use of the the

0:48:18.719 --> 0:48:22.840
<v Speaker 1>abuse of the effigy task was so? Was that actually

0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:26.759
<v Speaker 1>just to reveal some underlying attitudes or they actually suggesting

0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:30.560
<v Speaker 1>something like that is useful? I think they just used

0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:34.000
<v Speaker 1>it to reveal in this case, they're not saying, like,

0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:36.720
<v Speaker 1>do a voodoo doll task. You know that the voodoo

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:39.480
<v Speaker 1>doll task is merely a part of the experiment and

0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:42.960
<v Speaker 1>part of any kind of solution that they are presenting.

0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:46.640
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, again, putting voodoo in the title of the paper,

0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:52.359
<v Speaker 1>it's it's maybe selling the voodoo elements a little too strong. Well, yeah,

0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:55.280
<v Speaker 1>And I think often to refer to like any process

0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:59.000
<v Speaker 1>by which like the mechanics of which are unclear. I

0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:02.480
<v Speaker 1>mean I think about like the phrase like voodoo economics

0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:04.480
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that. I mean, it would be funny

0:49:04.520 --> 0:49:07.160
<v Speaker 1>to sub in any other name of any other religion.

0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:11.320
<v Speaker 1>They're like calling it Christian economics or uh or Hindu

0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:14.360
<v Speaker 1>economics or something. It wouldn't make much sense. I don't know.

0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:17.319
<v Speaker 1>I think maybe maybe people should try to retire those

0:49:17.440 --> 0:49:20.200
<v Speaker 1>uses of the word voodoo. It's a system of beliefs. Yeah,

0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:22.000
<v Speaker 1>you know that this would be a great excuse to

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:23.719
<v Speaker 1>come back at some point in the future and do

0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:28.279
<v Speaker 1>a show on voodoo because we could discuss what voodoo is,

0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:32.920
<v Speaker 1>slash was, how it has been represented in our culture,

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:36.319
<v Speaker 1>and how uh the terminology has been utilizable in this

0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:40.200
<v Speaker 1>case in scientific studies, but elsewhere as well. Okay, time

0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:44.120
<v Speaker 1>to turn to the Anthropology Prize, very different kind of subject.

0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:47.120
<v Speaker 1>This is going to deal with the concepts of learning

0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:52.839
<v Speaker 1>and imitation and uh and social mimicry. So you've heard

0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:56.600
<v Speaker 1>the expression obviously, monkey see monkey do uh. The funny

0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:59.040
<v Speaker 1>thing is that this is almost always applied to human

0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 1>children rather monkeys. You know, people never say that about

0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:04.240
<v Speaker 1>a monkey. They say that about a four year old,

0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.720
<v Speaker 1>and as such, it tends to highlight the very strong

0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:12.080
<v Speaker 1>imitative tendencies of human children. You ever notice how like

0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:18.279
<v Speaker 1>a child will seem to spontaneously, almost unconsciously, mimic actions

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:21.520
<v Speaker 1>that they see, Like they watch something on TV or

0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:24.320
<v Speaker 1>an adult doing something, and you'll see the child doing

0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:28.040
<v Speaker 1>the same thing with their hands that the adult is doing,

0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:30.160
<v Speaker 1>or the person on TV is doing, or something without

0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:33.720
<v Speaker 1>even seeming to realize it. Oh yeah, Like I need

0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:38.960
<v Speaker 1>the countless examples from my home child's life. But I

0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:43.879
<v Speaker 1>specifically remember like watching him dance while watching Frozen when

0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:46.799
<v Speaker 1>he was like super little, Like he doesn't even remember this,

0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:49.839
<v Speaker 1>but during the dance scenes he would move a little

0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:53.279
<v Speaker 1>bit while watching That's funny, I mean I actually have

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:56.759
<v Speaker 1>very strong specific memories about this from when I was

0:50:56.800 --> 0:51:01.560
<v Speaker 1>a little kid, like of suddenly becoming embarrassed because I

0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:06.680
<v Speaker 1>realized I was spontaneously unconsciously imitating an action I had

0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:09.879
<v Speaker 1>just seen an adult do. For example, I remember being

0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:12.080
<v Speaker 1>very young and I was like watching a dude in

0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:15.840
<v Speaker 1>my neighborhood using a jackhammer to tear up a concrete

0:51:15.920 --> 0:51:18.280
<v Speaker 1>porch on the side of a house. And I realized

0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:21.400
<v Speaker 1>I was like spontaneously pretending to use a jackhammer and

0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:24.360
<v Speaker 1>making sounds with my mouth. And I was suddenly realized this,

0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:27.040
<v Speaker 1>and I was like super embarrassed. But we do this

0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:31.719
<v Speaker 1>for some reason. Obviously why One obvious answer is that

0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:36.040
<v Speaker 1>imitation is an instinct related to what the clear thing

0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:39.279
<v Speaker 1>learning right? Right, You see something, you sort of do

0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:43.040
<v Speaker 1>it yourself. You you imitate, and through imitation you learned right.

0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.840
<v Speaker 1>And so the idea here is that it's adaptive to

0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:49.560
<v Speaker 1>have an imitation instinct because through this you can have

0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:54.960
<v Speaker 1>transgenerational transfer of of ideas and behaviors. For example, you

0:51:55.000 --> 0:51:58.400
<v Speaker 1>watch the skilled adult do something throw a rock or

0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:01.799
<v Speaker 1>make a hand axe, and you imitate their movements as

0:52:01.840 --> 0:52:04.080
<v Speaker 1>a way of learning how to do the thing yourself.

0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:08.000
<v Speaker 1>But there appears to be another biological function of imitation,

0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:11.759
<v Speaker 1>which is that it plays a social communicative role. It

0:52:11.880 --> 0:52:17.040
<v Speaker 1>prolongs pro social interactions and generally promotes positive social relationships.

0:52:17.200 --> 0:52:19.680
<v Speaker 1>And this latter role has been investigated in humans, but

0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:22.360
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of under explored or sometimes even thought to

0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:26.839
<v Speaker 1>be absent in non human primates like chimpanzees. Uh, there's

0:52:26.960 --> 0:52:31.160
<v Speaker 1>clear evidence of other other primates like chimpanzees, say, imitating

0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:35.000
<v Speaker 1>behaviors of each other and of humans, especially in order

0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:38.200
<v Speaker 1>to clearly learn how to do something. But what would

0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:41.120
<v Speaker 1>be the evidence that there's this social communicative role in

0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:44.799
<v Speaker 1>humans that's not necessarily there in chimpanzees. Well, one is

0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:49.520
<v Speaker 1>this interesting fact that human children, but not apes, tend

0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:53.760
<v Speaker 1>to what's called over imitate. So here here's an example

0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.640
<v Speaker 1>I want to give you. If an adult is demonstrating

0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.960
<v Speaker 1>the physical actions required to accomplish a goal, human chill

0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:04.800
<v Speaker 1>aldren will usually copy directly all of the adults actions,

0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:09.080
<v Speaker 1>even if they're clearly irrelevant to achieve the goal. And meanwhile,

0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:13.360
<v Speaker 1>chimpanzees will tend to ignore the irrelevant actions and figure

0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:16.000
<v Speaker 1>out what's the important part to get the desired goal.

0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:18.600
<v Speaker 1>So an example would be an adult picks up a

0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.720
<v Speaker 1>colored block and then uses it to flip a switch

0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:24.600
<v Speaker 1>on a box, and then the box opens to reveal

0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:28.080
<v Speaker 1>a toy. Human children, especially starting around two years old,

0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:31.120
<v Speaker 1>will copy this exactly. They'll pick up the colored block

0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:33.480
<v Speaker 1>and use it to flip the switch to get the toy,

0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:35.919
<v Speaker 1>whereas the apes will just skip the block and they'll

0:53:35.960 --> 0:53:38.120
<v Speaker 1>just flip the switch with their hands and get the toy.

0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Another version I've heard is like, um, you have a

0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:44.760
<v Speaker 1>food item or a toy or something inside a box,

0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:48.280
<v Speaker 1>and you have an adult go through these elaborate rituals

0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:51.040
<v Speaker 1>with their hands before they open the doors of the

0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:55.560
<v Speaker 1>box and get the thing out. Apparently, apes and human

0:53:55.680 --> 0:53:58.919
<v Speaker 1>children will tend to copy all of the actions if

0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:02.279
<v Speaker 1>the boxes ache, but if the box is clear and

0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.399
<v Speaker 1>you can see the item inside, the human children will

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:07.600
<v Speaker 1>still copy all of the actions, but the apes will

0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:10.000
<v Speaker 1>just reach in and get it. So the tay with

0:54:10.080 --> 0:54:11.839
<v Speaker 1>the real Tay come here would seem to be do

0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:15.880
<v Speaker 1>not bring a chimpanzee to communion, right, because that's not

0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:18.400
<v Speaker 1>going to follow any of the more ritual aspects of

0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:20.960
<v Speaker 1>the thing. It's just gonna go for the juice and bread. Well,

0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:24.120
<v Speaker 1>this is clear because this shows that even the presence

0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.360
<v Speaker 1>of rituals seems to show that there's some role of

0:54:27.440 --> 0:54:31.640
<v Speaker 1>imitation in human culture that goes beyond just like learning

0:54:31.760 --> 0:54:35.600
<v Speaker 1>useful skills that achieve goals. There's some type of imitation

0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:39.200
<v Speaker 1>that happens between humans that seems to be purely social,

0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:43.280
<v Speaker 1>and it's hypothesized by some that humans are actually better

0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:47.440
<v Speaker 1>learners than apes in part because of this slavish copying

0:54:47.600 --> 0:54:50.680
<v Speaker 1>of apparently pointless actions. You can imagine how this might

0:54:50.760 --> 0:54:54.880
<v Speaker 1>help in like learning to perform actions that don't immediately

0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:59.160
<v Speaker 1>result in a goal or reward. Right, Mimicking behaviors with

0:54:59.239 --> 0:55:03.480
<v Speaker 1>no obvious benefit also helps you learn more complex multi

0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:07.719
<v Speaker 1>step skills. That's true. Plus I also can't help but

0:55:07.760 --> 0:55:13.200
<v Speaker 1>think of steps in performing tasks where the the importance

0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:16.120
<v Speaker 1>of some of those steps might be lost on on

0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:19.479
<v Speaker 1>a novice exactly, but later I realize, oh, that's really

0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:22.759
<v Speaker 1>essential if I should wear a radiation suit well while

0:55:22.840 --> 0:55:26.560
<v Speaker 1>messing around with these these rods. Yes, So the question

0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:31.839
<v Speaker 1>is why do human children copy more perfectly and more pointlessly,

0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:35.359
<v Speaker 1>where whereas apes don't to the same extent, And one

0:55:35.400 --> 0:55:38.239
<v Speaker 1>potential answer is that the human copying appears to be

0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:41.120
<v Speaker 1>for more than just learning how to achieve goals. It's

0:55:41.160 --> 0:55:45.200
<v Speaker 1>also playing this social communicative role where the imitation itself

0:55:45.280 --> 0:55:48.399
<v Speaker 1>is useful not just for achieving mechanical goals, but for

0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:52.719
<v Speaker 1>things like improving relationships between people. And this could be

0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:55.600
<v Speaker 1>seen somewhat parallel to Robert something I know you've read

0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:59.200
<v Speaker 1>about before, the unconscious process of mirroring in human psychology

0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:02.600
<v Speaker 1>and behavior. If you if you've never observed this, just

0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:07.480
<v Speaker 1>do a quick experiment. Watch two co workers separately, and

0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:10.680
<v Speaker 1>then watch them once they begin a conversation with each other.

0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:13.920
<v Speaker 1>There's a very good chance that when they start talking

0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:16.319
<v Speaker 1>to each other, you might be able to notice them

0:56:16.360 --> 0:56:21.839
<v Speaker 1>beginning to show similar posture and nonverbal behaviors like gesturing,

0:56:21.920 --> 0:56:25.319
<v Speaker 1>without them seeming to notice that they're doing it. And

0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:28.680
<v Speaker 1>this is an unconscious form of imitation known as mirroring.

0:56:28.920 --> 0:56:31.840
<v Speaker 1>It appears to be a pro social adaptation that builds

0:56:31.920 --> 0:56:35.560
<v Speaker 1>feelings of closeness and rapport between people, and research shows

0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:39.360
<v Speaker 1>that when other people mirror your actions, you have increased

0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:42.520
<v Speaker 1>positive feelings. You trust them more, you feel closer to them,

0:56:42.560 --> 0:56:45.279
<v Speaker 1>You're more likely to believe they share your attitudes and

0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:47.840
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that. But we like to. We like to

0:56:47.880 --> 0:56:50.720
<v Speaker 1>mirror each other's behaviors because we like to be mirrored.

0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:53.080
<v Speaker 1>It makes us feel good. Yeah, this is always something

0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:56.319
<v Speaker 1>very interesting to observe when we we actually stop to

0:56:56.360 --> 0:57:00.000
<v Speaker 1>observe it, because there's like it's happening at a linguistic level.

0:57:00.280 --> 0:57:03.040
<v Speaker 1>It's happening in the way we speak with our hands,

0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:05.680
<v Speaker 1>and now the under person may speak with their hands

0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:08.839
<v Speaker 1>as well. Um, And of course we're not running through

0:57:08.880 --> 0:57:11.960
<v Speaker 1>all of this before we have a conversation. We're not saying, hey, uh,

0:57:12.000 --> 0:57:13.279
<v Speaker 1>if do you wanna how much do you want to

0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:15.560
<v Speaker 1>use your hands during this conversation. I'm thinking about keeping

0:57:15.560 --> 0:57:19.400
<v Speaker 1>it like nd body level, but I could go wider. No,

0:57:19.800 --> 0:57:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's generally entirely unconscious. And the funny thing is,

0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:25.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean we like it when it's unconscious. But like

0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:28.400
<v Speaker 1>if you pointed it out and people were doing it consciously,

0:57:28.400 --> 0:57:31.480
<v Speaker 1>it would seems psychopathic, right, You would think like, oh

0:57:31.520 --> 0:57:34.120
<v Speaker 1>my god, I'm being manipulated. I hate this if you

0:57:34.200 --> 0:57:37.560
<v Speaker 1>thought the person was consciously doing it. But nevertheless, we

0:57:37.600 --> 0:57:40.400
<v Speaker 1>do have all of this clearly conscious imitation going on

0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:43.240
<v Speaker 1>with with human children and with nonhuman primates, with the

0:57:43.280 --> 0:57:46.720
<v Speaker 1>distinctions we've talked about before, but this study that won

0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:49.960
<v Speaker 1>the Ignoble this year, the Ignoble Anthropology Price focused on

0:57:50.280 --> 0:57:55.160
<v Speaker 1>testing for evidence of social communicative imitation in non human

0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:58.880
<v Speaker 1>primates in chimpanzees. So it's taking issue with that previous

0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:03.520
<v Speaker 1>consensus that they're is no social communicative imitation and non

0:58:03.600 --> 0:58:06.640
<v Speaker 1>human primates. That for the non human primates, it's just basic,

0:58:06.680 --> 0:58:10.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, mechanical learning imitation. And so the prize was

0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:16.400
<v Speaker 1>given to Thomas Person, Gabrielle, Elina South south Quick, Elaine Madison,

0:58:16.840 --> 0:58:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh sorry, and Elaine Madison for quote collecting evidence in

0:58:20.040 --> 0:58:23.560
<v Speaker 1>a zoo that chimpanzees imitate humans about as often and

0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:27.800
<v Speaker 1>about as well as humans imitate chimpanzees. This was published

0:58:27.800 --> 0:58:31.120
<v Speaker 1>in the journal Primates in the year so earlier this year,

0:58:31.720 --> 0:58:33.920
<v Speaker 1>and so basically what happened is you had these researchers

0:58:33.920 --> 0:58:38.080
<v Speaker 1>from Lunda University in Sweden and they studied spontaneous interactions

0:58:38.120 --> 0:58:42.520
<v Speaker 1>between chimpanzees and human visitors at the Furivic Zoo in Sweden,

0:58:42.880 --> 0:58:45.120
<v Speaker 1>and what they found was interesting. They found that humans

0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:50.240
<v Speaker 1>in chimpanzees spontaneously imitated each other at roughly the same

0:58:50.400 --> 0:58:54.520
<v Speaker 1>rate going both ways, about ten percent of actions that

0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:59.680
<v Speaker 1>each species performed were spontaneously imitated by the other, though

0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:02.520
<v Speaker 1>human is overall showed what they quote called a higher

0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:06.760
<v Speaker 1>imitative precision. So like the humans, imitations of the apes

0:59:06.840 --> 0:59:09.920
<v Speaker 1>were more finely tuned, you might say, a little bit

0:59:09.920 --> 0:59:12.920
<v Speaker 1>more accurate. But the apes imitated the humans at the

0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:16.320
<v Speaker 1>same rate that the humans imitated the apes. Uh. There

0:59:16.400 --> 0:59:19.840
<v Speaker 1>was also some congruity in the kinds of actions imitated

0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:23.600
<v Speaker 1>by both humans and chimpanzees, who tended especially to copy

0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:27.920
<v Speaker 1>things like clapping the hands, pressing lips against the window,

0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:31.360
<v Speaker 1>like kissing the glass, knocking on the glass with the hand,

0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:34.040
<v Speaker 1>and knocking on the head with the hand. I like

0:59:34.160 --> 0:59:36.600
<v Speaker 1>that one. But one thing you might notice about these

0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:41.120
<v Speaker 1>imitated actions is that they're common, which means they're familiar,

0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.840
<v Speaker 1>which means they're not new to the animal, and they're

0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:47.439
<v Speaker 1>not in service of any goal. They're not getting anything. Thus,

0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:51.360
<v Speaker 1>the authors think that this is evidence of social communicative imitation,

0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:56.240
<v Speaker 1>what's done for the purpose of bonding, building rapport, communicating intentions,

0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:59.320
<v Speaker 1>and so forth, rather than for learning how to do

0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:03.240
<v Speaker 1>new tas asks or accomplished goals. Another piece of evidence

1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:07.600
<v Speaker 1>that the chimpanzees showed social communicative imitation is that interactions

1:00:07.640 --> 1:00:12.160
<v Speaker 1>between humans and chimpanzees lasted longer on average when there

1:00:12.200 --> 1:00:15.720
<v Speaker 1>was imitation than when there was none. So the authors

1:00:15.760 --> 1:00:18.840
<v Speaker 1>conclude that there's more evidence than previously thought that apes

1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:23.080
<v Speaker 1>also evolved imitation instincts for social and communication reasons, not

1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:26.040
<v Speaker 1>just for learning. So maybe we could bring them to communion.

1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Maybe that's a good Yeah, So I wonder, I mean,

1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:34.560
<v Speaker 1>this obviously is intension with some previous findings, so you

1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:38.720
<v Speaker 1>gotta wonder, like what what's causing the distinction there. Maybe

1:00:38.800 --> 1:00:43.680
<v Speaker 1>chimpanzees are just more goal oriented. They know what they

1:00:43.720 --> 1:00:45.800
<v Speaker 1>want and they tend to get it. I wonder how

1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:47.640
<v Speaker 1>this play is into any of the Planet of the

1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Apes movies, if this could be used to understand any

1:00:51.760 --> 1:00:55.000
<v Speaker 1>character motivations there, well, like if Charlton Heston had only

1:00:55.120 --> 1:00:58.320
<v Speaker 1>mirrored doctors as more, um, they might have gotten a

1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:04.640
<v Speaker 1>long better all right, So there you have it. Ignoble Prizes.

1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.520
<v Speaker 1>We've rolled through all the winners for this year in

1:01:08.560 --> 1:01:12.040
<v Speaker 1>these two episodes, and again some of them we gave

1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:14.240
<v Speaker 1>more attention than others, and pretty much any of them

1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:16.880
<v Speaker 1>touch on a topic that we either have discussed in

1:01:16.880 --> 1:01:19.720
<v Speaker 1>the pastor could easily discuss again in the future. So

1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:22.360
<v Speaker 1>if you have particular thoughts on what episodes we should

1:01:22.360 --> 1:01:25.160
<v Speaker 1>do in the future, just let us know. In the meantime.

1:01:25.200 --> 1:01:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Heading over to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:28.600
<v Speaker 1>That's the mother ship. That's where we'll find all the

1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:31.280
<v Speaker 1>episodes of the podcast. You'll find a links to our

1:01:31.360 --> 1:01:34.000
<v Speaker 1>various social media accounts. You'll find a tap at the

1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:36.440
<v Speaker 1>top of the page for our store, key Public Store,

1:01:36.880 --> 1:01:39.560
<v Speaker 1>where you can find all sorts of cool merchandise with

1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:43.280
<v Speaker 1>our logo on it, or stuff related to specific shows

1:01:43.400 --> 1:01:46.320
<v Speaker 1>like uh, um, you know all hail the Great basilisk

1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:50.480
<v Speaker 1>or um the Bicameral Mind, or well, what's the our

1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:54.360
<v Speaker 1>fabulous black hole shirt Joe oh the sphere Catastrophe? Yeah,

1:01:54.520 --> 1:01:56.600
<v Speaker 1>super cool. Get that on a shirt, get it on

1:01:56.840 --> 1:01:58.920
<v Speaker 1>a sticker, get it on a tope bag, frame it

1:01:58.960 --> 1:02:01.960
<v Speaker 1>put on the wall. All those options are open to you.

1:02:01.960 --> 1:02:04.000
<v Speaker 1>You can even get it on a phone case. Yes,

1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:05.880
<v Speaker 1>I didn't mean to pick one of those up. A

1:02:05.920 --> 1:02:08.320
<v Speaker 1>phone case yeah, pretty swink. Yeah, and I need to

1:02:08.360 --> 1:02:11.800
<v Speaker 1>protect my phone from me dropping it all right, well,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks as always to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams

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<v Speaker 1>and Tory Harrison, if you would like to get in

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<v Speaker 1>for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does

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<v Speaker 1>it how stuff works dot com. We stored propical f