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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything, okay, honest, I want to do uh,

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Speaker 1: like a war game exercise. Yeah, where like we act

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Speaker 1: like I die like I'm dead and you gotta carry

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Speaker 1: on the show, all right, But my dying words are um,

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Speaker 1: I know that Spencer wanted to mention something and I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of things to talk about. That's my

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Speaker 1: dying words. And then Austin you jump in, uh and

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Speaker 1: start out and you jump in here you are you

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Speaker 1: not have to to start the show. Just start the show.

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Speaker 1: Let me see. I just want to see what would happen.

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Speaker 1: So all right, I'm dead. Damn guys, you believe that

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Speaker 1: he seemed a pretty healthy fella, see, but that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna start the show by small talking. You're not gonna

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Speaker 1: come in like small talking. He just died. I can't

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Speaker 1: just pass that by, okay, don't you think? But you

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Speaker 1: haven't brought you haven't brought listeners up to speed. If

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Speaker 1: if I killed over, wouldn't you mention it? Not? If

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Speaker 1: it would interfere with the flow, I think they'd be

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Speaker 1: I think they'd be interested. What do you think killed

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Speaker 1: Steve and his age is probably her attack on that

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Speaker 1: that's not gonna be what it is. Well, I guess

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Speaker 1: that this is the number one killer now, Guys in

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Speaker 1: the forties dropped dead sometimes her attacks. Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: saw that yesday. Traumatized my kids. Well, got running errands

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Speaker 1: to go to the hardware store, all these ambulances, some

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Speaker 1: dude laying off in the grass along the sidewalk look

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Speaker 1: dead and dead. Pat Maybe you'll since you're since you're

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Speaker 1: a writer, maybe you'll write his obituary for us. That's

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Speaker 1: a good pivot. Hold on, I'm not done yet. But

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Speaker 1: before you get to thinking about that, and since you're

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Speaker 1: here because you had a whole bunch of stuff to

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Speaker 1: talk about, we also have with a Spencer new Heart

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Speaker 1: who had one top topic in particular that he wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring up. What was that? It is a call

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Speaker 1: back to the wolf episode you guys did a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago where it was kind of brought up in

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Speaker 1: passing but discussing why dear uh shed their antlers, Like

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Speaker 1: we know it's photo period in testosterone, but the bigger

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Speaker 1: reason as to like why evolutionary they did that? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so why evolutionary? For evolutionary reasons do dear lose their antlers?

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Speaker 1: So can I point out here we can't know, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I was going to bring that up. Oh good, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: So there's like three um trains of thought. None of

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Speaker 1: them can be proven, none of them are widely accepted. Really, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're just all kind of kicked around the big why

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Speaker 1: in the world when you just want them all the time? Right,

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Speaker 1: Like like if you look at a bison or a sheep,

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Speaker 1: why don't why did endear end up doing the same

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Speaker 1: thing and just keeping those all the time their headgear

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Speaker 1: all the time? Now, the first two reasons are pretty

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Speaker 1: simple and they're probably the most widely accepted, But the

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Speaker 1: first reason would be, uh, the energy cost it is

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Speaker 1: to keep those things. If you're like a big moose

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Speaker 1: and you've got giant panels on your head or a

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Speaker 1: big white tail, and the purpose of those antlers is

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Speaker 1: for breeding, Um, why do you need them? In January, February, March, April.

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Speaker 1: The rest of the time of year, there's no breeding

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Speaker 1: being done, so you don't need those antlers, so they

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Speaker 1: just shed them. I don't know about that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just throwing them out there. So that's the first one,

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Speaker 1: and I would guess that that is like the most

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Speaker 1: widely accepted one. It's just pretty simple. But then it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really explain like why bison and sheep and animals

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Speaker 1: like that do keep your head gear. So do you

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Speaker 1: any thoughts on that one? If they kept that, it

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Speaker 1: would have to be living right, right, because the antlers

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Speaker 1: like living and then like kind of dies. Right. If

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Speaker 1: they kept that, it has to be living because it's

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Speaker 1: gonna need to continue to grow, So there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: blood flowing there. And I could see it being an

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Speaker 1: enormous heat loss. They think that the sheep loses a

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Speaker 1: lot of heat, really yeah, through its uninsulated horn, you know,

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Speaker 1: through horn coore. I could see it being a lot

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Speaker 1: of heat loss if that was alive. The energy thing though,

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Speaker 1: in and of itself, I mean, how much more how

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Speaker 1: much energy take to keep growing the sun's bitches? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, I can't maintain my house, so I

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Speaker 1: just burn it down and rebuild it every year. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: go on. So that kind of brings you to point

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Speaker 1: to you, uh, another theories that they shed their antlers

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Speaker 1: so they always have a fresh set for the next fall.

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Speaker 1: So during the rut, uh, we can be as specific

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Speaker 1: as a white tail in October November. Uh, they're battling

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Speaker 1: it out with other bucks. Uh. You'll see it as

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Speaker 1: dramatic as losing like an entire main beam. Where come

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Speaker 1: the end of November, you'll see bucks walking around with

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Speaker 1: broken off times, broken brow times. Uh. Entire main beams

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Speaker 1: lost that kind of thing. So they adjusted to that

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Speaker 1: by having these broken antlers every fall to just dropping

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Speaker 1: them and growing new ones. Yeah, is there any Is

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Speaker 1: there any aquatic? Is there any fish or anything that

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Speaker 1: grows a weapon and drops the weapon? Not that more

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Speaker 1: of it's so like when you think about like that,

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Speaker 1: it's so weird. Maybe thing that like grows a weapon

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Speaker 1: and then drops the weapon drops it. Maybe this is

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Speaker 1: helpful Like for thinking about this too, is that it's

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Speaker 1: believed h dear grew antlers in place of tusks, like

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Speaker 1: the most primitive deer have tusks, rather than that they

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Speaker 1: got antlers instead. So maybe that like helps form your

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Speaker 1: opinion of why they do this. Yeah, um, there's another one. Still,

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Speaker 1: there's another one, And they say I'm gonna save mine

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to do in minds like totally unfounded,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna save mine. Ah, so this is my

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Speaker 1: favorite one, but it's probably um like the least widely accepted.

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Speaker 1: This is like you typed in the truth about antlers.

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Speaker 1: Oh nothing, just running. This is the inside Joe. This

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Speaker 1: is like a deep dark web answer. But we had

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Speaker 1: a guy, we used to work with, a guy that

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Speaker 1: always had these wild explanations for everything and conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 1: and we felt that when he does internet searches that

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Speaker 1: he must always write the truth about in order to

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Speaker 1: get the kind of like he had, the kind of

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Speaker 1: information that seems like it would be that would come

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Speaker 1: up if you wrote like the truth about you know,

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Speaker 1: like imagine if you're studying capitalism and then you wrote

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Speaker 1: in the truth about capitalism. Do you feel that you

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Speaker 1: would get the same search results as if you wrote

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Speaker 1: in what is capitalism? Probably not. No, you're making me

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Speaker 1: think of these magazine blurbs. I used to write the

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Speaker 1: truth about the rut, you know, Oh exactly, how can

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Speaker 1: I make this sound of the truth about hunting scrapes? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Number three? So and and this is kind of deep, right.

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Speaker 1: This is like when you talked about how mule deer

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Speaker 1: came to be that time, and you're like, it's just

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Speaker 1: a little bit too uh like cute and tidy to

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Speaker 1: actually almost be that believable, being that deer guts separated

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Speaker 1: by the glaciers. Glaciers were gone, and then black tails

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Speaker 1: and white ties came together and made me able to right,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like that, And I think your hybridization event, yes,

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Speaker 1: and your comment about that was like, it's it's just

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Speaker 1: a little bit too tidy and cute. So the third

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Speaker 1: theory is that um bucks dropped their antlers in the

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Speaker 1: winter so they can then mimic a dough because otherwise

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Speaker 1: predators like wolves, mountain lions, bears, coyotes, once snow was

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Speaker 1: on the ground and it is post rut, they would

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Speaker 1: recognize those bucks is being malnourished individuals and they would

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Speaker 1: seek them out and kill more bucks than they would otherwise.

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Speaker 1: So to combat that, deer then started losing their antlers

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Speaker 1: to look more like does and not have these very

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Speaker 1: obvious signs saying I am a weakened animal. Get me. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Are you familiar with the um Stephen

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Speaker 1: Jay Gould, he wrote a lot about genetics, No is

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Speaker 1: the turkey named after him? No? No, he has the

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Speaker 1: thing where he's like, why is bark brown? Right? Right?

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Speaker 1: Is bark brown because it's advantageous to have brown bark?

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Speaker 1: Or is bark brown because it just happens to be brown?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's advantageous to have bark, it's advantageous to have

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Speaker 1: a protective cover, and just so happens that protective covers

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Speaker 1: such as bark tend to be brown, and there's nothing

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Speaker 1: driving the brownness. But we'd look and be like, why

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Speaker 1: is it brown? And then we'd be like, ah, I

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Speaker 1: think it's brown because it's a camouflage, or I think

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Speaker 1: it's brown, but it's just maybe there are advantages to

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Speaker 1: being brown, but that's not the one pressure. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense. Unny, So I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Uh so you're saying, I accept all these are all

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Speaker 1: great things. I just don't know enough about like the

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Speaker 1: early forms, you know, like the early like like what

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Speaker 1: was the first thing that started to have a thing

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Speaker 1: that shed What did it look like with the circumstances

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Speaker 1: that it lived under? Did it live? Did the first

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Speaker 1: served that was that began shedding? An antler? The first

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Speaker 1: thing that he emerged as a servant and it began

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Speaker 1: shedding an antler. Was it dealing with wolves? What were

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Speaker 1: what was it dealing with in predation terms? What would

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Speaker 1: like like, Yeah, so when there's a man that knows

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Speaker 1: the man that would have a really good sense, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have him on in here in the upcoming

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Speaker 1: after a man named Yeah, Doug Emlyn, you're welcome to come.

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Speaker 1: I listen. I like everything you're throwing. I like them all. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh but but but it's just it's difficult for me

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Speaker 1: that third That third one is a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: But there's Dug Emlin specializes in animal weapons, Okay, and

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Speaker 1: this is uh on topic with that. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that you could be like, Nope, number three doesn't

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Speaker 1: work is because in yellow Stone, after wolves were introduced again, Um,

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Speaker 1: they noticed and there was a scientific study done on

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Speaker 1: this a few years ago, that the wolves weren't killing

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Speaker 1: that many males or we're not killing that many bull

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Speaker 1: elk besides in the winter, and the elk that they

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Speaker 1: were here killing, um, we're ones that still had their antlers.

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Speaker 1: And then no, am I getting this wrong? So they

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Speaker 1: were saying that, uh, in the winter when elk. When

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Speaker 1: bull elk would start shedding their antlers, the ones that

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Speaker 1: shed sooner got a head start on growing their antlers

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Speaker 1: for the next year. Uh and and they were healthier.

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Speaker 1: The ones that shed sooner, We're healthier. And predators would

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Speaker 1: know this, that those ones were healthier, so they would

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Speaker 1: seek out and kill the ones with antlers. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: makes a little bit of sense because I know that

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Speaker 1: that the wolf researcher Diane Boyd was saying how elk

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Speaker 1: don't really use their antlers against wolves, and that you

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Speaker 1: are packing around a lot of extra weight and it

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Speaker 1: is a signifier that you are entering the winner in

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Speaker 1: a depleted state that you could pick up like you

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Speaker 1: know what. The ones that these things on top of

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Speaker 1: their heads seemed to be in not the best shape.

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Speaker 1: They seem to be a little worn down. I might

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Speaker 1: have butchered dead. Story. Come back to me on that.

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Speaker 1: You want to check it out. I want to check

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Speaker 1: that out. Well, that's why I said about white tails

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Speaker 1: to at the fonts go first bucks next door was

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Speaker 1: last winter starvation and predation that the you know they're

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Speaker 1: getting preyed upon, that they like Diane was saying about

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Speaker 1: hitting the young and the ones that given the opportunity,

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Speaker 1: And quite often these bucks come into winter warren down

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Speaker 1: and they're sitting away out and the friends of these

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Speaker 1: yards sometimes the wolves pick them off. You know, they

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Speaker 1: know they're running down. They they don't they don't have

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Speaker 1: the stamina, the strength they had a month earlier, you know,

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Speaker 1: so they those productors. I thought I was fastening to

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Speaker 1: Yass's comment on the your your chickens and backyard stuff.

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Speaker 1: How they start showing a sign of weakness, somehow they disappear.

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Speaker 1: And there's things that these these produtors pick up on

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Speaker 1: that we have no at least in the modern humans

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Speaker 1: don't have that awareness. So funny you mentioned chickens because

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Speaker 1: chicken egg shales have we touched on this egg shales

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Speaker 1: have really dropped off. He came in all hot with

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Speaker 1: a couple of dozen eggs and it just really tapered off. Um, Pat,

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Speaker 1: where do you Spence is gonna do a little research.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk about the guy that found

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Speaker 1: the dead people with his own ar machine a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. But there's a bunch of other stuff we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about. Which do you which do you

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Speaker 1: care about talking about? First, let's talk about Rick Um.

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Speaker 1: The guy's name is Rick Krueger. He lives in Madison, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: And just a quick aside about Rick that how we

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Speaker 1: came together, And this is one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I like like about the kind of work we do,

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Speaker 1: how you bump into people sometimes and meet acquaintances. Is

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Speaker 1: I screwed up a story one time about a fishing exposition.

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Speaker 1: Who was who the speakers a fishing exposition. I mentioned

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Speaker 1: this guy, Rick Krueger, and I gave all his details

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Speaker 1: and the start of Rick Krueger race to me and says,

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Speaker 1: it's very nice, but that's you know, you got it

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Speaker 1: all wrong. That guy's a fishing guide. And what I

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Speaker 1: do is I run run sonar and the mass and

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Speaker 1: lakes and I look for, oh, structure cars, anything that's

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Speaker 1: been throwing the bottom the lake basically or ended up

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Speaker 1: in the bottom the lake. Up. You're writing about a

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Speaker 1: fishing exposition, convention or trade show, and you see that

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Speaker 1: there's a guy Rick Krueger gonna talk, and you mix

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Speaker 1: up and you think it's a fishing guy, but in

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Speaker 1: fact it's supposed to be a sonar guy. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so the sonar guy gets ahold. He says wrong Rick,

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Speaker 1: and and I said to him, well, I owe you one.

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Speaker 1: I I screwed it up. I I do apologize because

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Speaker 1: now some people who wanted to hear him talk, you know. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I came which one I screwed up anymore? Anyway, So

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Speaker 1: I met this guy that Krueger, like Freddy Krueger. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he spells a k r u e g e r

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Speaker 1: and he's um he turns out. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: one of the best mistakes I've ever made in my career,

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Speaker 1: because I ended up being the most fascinating day I spent,

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Speaker 1: like I in recent memory, where get on the boat

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Speaker 1: and he was showing me around Lake Manona in Madison,

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Speaker 1: and he started telling me all these different history historical

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Speaker 1: stuff about the lakes based on stuff he had found

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Speaker 1: on the bottom of the lake. And you know, like

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Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, and people get toward fall if

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Speaker 1: they had a work barge out in the lake. Rather

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Speaker 1: than go to trouble bringing that barge in and holding

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Speaker 1: it out there, they just think it out there in

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Speaker 1: the lake. And they said, he finds all this kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff out there, and just sunken boats and the

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Speaker 1: most fastening with a regular fishing. Yeah, they're they're high end.

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Speaker 1: He has he has two of them, at least he

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Speaker 1: had two of them that day I was with them.

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Speaker 1: He had one over here on the side and went

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Speaker 1: up on the screen and then they can see off

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Speaker 1: the sides. They can see down the down, straight down.

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Speaker 1: He had them looking at all angles and these screens

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Speaker 1: he's monitoring. He he kept pointing stuff out to me

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Speaker 1: on these screens and basically telling me, you know what

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Speaker 1: he's looking at, because like my untrained eye can really

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Speaker 1: figure out, even with that good on our screen, what

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Speaker 1: he's looking at. Sometimes. But then once he showed it

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Speaker 1: to me that I can understand. But he said, you're

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Speaker 1: typically looking at it like a shadow. I guess althose

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Speaker 1: sonar units. And but as we're talking and he's telling

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Speaker 1: me some of the unique things he's found, I kind

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Speaker 1: of said, well, what's the coolest thing you have found?

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Speaker 1: What's the one thing he most proud of? Because this

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00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,400
Speaker 1: is stuff sometimes going down seventy ft into the water,

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Speaker 1: and because if what he does is he finds the thing,

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Speaker 1: tries to identify as best he can with the sonar,

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00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 1: but that's still not an actual picture. So then he

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Speaker 1: takes his underwater camera and lowers it down, tried to

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Speaker 1: get a barrel look at it, and then brings it up.

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Speaker 1: And if it's something he wants to really get a

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00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,919
Speaker 1: good look at, he'll either go home and look at

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Speaker 1: it on the computer screen and see it in a

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00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 1: bitter detailer also let's dive down. And so the story

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Speaker 1: started telling me it was about a car he had

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Speaker 1: found over on an our mass and lake about ten

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Speaker 1: fifteen miles away called Lake Wabisa's Um. The mass and

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Speaker 1: lakes is four him and Manona is the second biggest one.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure in terms of acres, but I guess

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00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,120
Speaker 1: I think manoticed by about three or four miles across

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00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 1: kind of a circular type sheet bikes good good sized

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00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: legs called Madison Lakes. Yeah, the mass and chain of

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00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,239
Speaker 1: legs are basically, you know, a generic thing. But if

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00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: you're a mass near the real famous lakes Mendota, Manona, Wabisa,

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Speaker 1: Ringra and their wings the smallest one, Mendota is the

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Speaker 1: biggest one, the deepest one, Manona. I'm not sure the

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00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 1: maximum death maybe sixty seventy ft In place that another

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Speaker 1: Vick Kruger story before we gone the most famous thing

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Speaker 1: never happened on Lake Mandona. That's where Otis Writing, the

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Speaker 1: famous singer died. He was like twenty seven years old.

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Speaker 1: Plane crash. Reading died at seven years of age. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: sitting on a dock in the bay. And yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then he died. He died in that. He died crashing

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Speaker 1: in the Lake Manona in the winter. And then no ship, yeah,

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Speaker 1: no ship, and and ricks Vick to this day, here's

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Speaker 1: a guy that wrote sitting on the dock in the

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Speaker 1: bay and recorded it back in the dding that he

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Speaker 1: would then die in the water. Yeah, spooky stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was wishing he was on the dock if I

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Speaker 1: make it to the dock. Yeah, huh Yeah, that's where

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Speaker 1: Ordis Reading died. That's great. Yeah, I mean too bad

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Speaker 1: for him, but yeah, yeah, I mean it's great. You

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's it's costing. It's an interesting

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00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: factory that a lot of people don't know about. Mass

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00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, that's where Otis Reading died. And he died

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Speaker 1: going into a lake. You know, for some reason, buddy,

328
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: Buddy Holly, everyone knows he died in the crashed in

329
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: the corn field in the middle of winter or whatever.

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00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 1: It was an April or whatever. But um, for some reason,

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Speaker 1: people don't make that connection with Ortis writing how he

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00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 1: died and you know at such a young age, this band,

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00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's like six seven people

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00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: in that plane that went down. John Denver, John Denver two?

335
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 1: What do you run out of gas or something? Died

336
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 1: in there? You're playing? Yeah, came Mountain and Jim you

337
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 1: probably liked that song because you lived in Colorado a

338
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 1: long time. Rocky Mountain Jim tros too. So get get

339
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 1: back to her career. So shopped a bunch of people up.

340
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: So hey, when you get do a really suspenseful spot

341
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 1: in the story. Yeah, and this is a good story.

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00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 1: Yeah stop, okay, and we're gonna check back in with

343
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 1: Spencer about his uh about the about the problem. I

344
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 1: think I know it goods about to stop like a

345
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,679
Speaker 1: suspenseful spot. Okay, Well I think I do anyway, So

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00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 1: there you guys, are you say to him, hey, man,

347
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: what's the weirdest thing you found out in these lakes? Yeah?

348
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: And he didn't even hesitate you start talking about um,

349
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: he was wearing a lake wabisa and he told me

350
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,439
Speaker 1: about He's told me the story where he said, you know,

351
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 1: two guys years ago when ice fishing, like two o'clock

352
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Speaker 1: in the morning, and this is not sober, not probably

353
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: not sober. They about partying most of the night there. Um.

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Speaker 1: The guy's name is Um ron Wick and Carl Stults

355
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: Rick was Rick. Ron Wick was Um twenty years old

356
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: and Stultz was three years old. And they they were

357
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: out partying, even had a girl with him for a while,

358
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,239
Speaker 1: and they asked if she's going to go out there

359
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 1: walleye fish with him, and she, fortunately for her, turned

360
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 1: them down. Instead of the old like do you want

361
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: to come back and see my aquarium, You're like, do

362
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: you want to go with me and my body here

363
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: out ice fishing? So she she said no, she'd had

364
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: enough for one night. But those guys, so I like

365
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: these guys, they got their fries, very straight, admirable guys.

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00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: And they so they after they dropped this this young

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00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: lady off, they knew knew of a bait shop in

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00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: town that had been of those all night things you oppress.

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00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 1: You know this is one, by the way, one This

370
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 1: story starts Um February one. They go to a bait shop,

371
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 1: ring the doorbell, a woman answers comes in and she

372
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 1: they want to win a walleye bait minnows and they've

373
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: talked to her. Okay, I was picturing for a minute

374
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: that you meant a vending machine, because that was the

375
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 1: thing for like some period of time. But you mean

376
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: a twenty four hour ring like like like ringing the

377
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: bell out of motel in the middle of the night exactly. Yeah,

378
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: you could summon someone to sell you bath in the morning. Yeah,

379
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 1: I bet that place is not in business, not in

380
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 1: business anymore now that those kind of places are long gone.

381
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: But but you know, I remember those kind of places

382
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, you know, I was. I

383
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: was in sixty when I was five years old. But I, um,

384
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: so this all comes back, This all comes back to

385
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: me at some point. But so they got this bait shop,

386
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: and while they're in the bay shop getting their minnows,

387
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: this woman woman, um was probably thinking this a little

388
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: bit weird that they're here two o'clock in the morning.

389
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: But the guy says to her, Yeah, I don't think

390
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: a a little crazy to be going out fishing in

391
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: the middle of the night like this, two o'clock in

392
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: the morning. And I don't know what she said, you know,

393
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: but that was a newspaper story. But anyway, these guys

394
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: go off and leave leave her while she ended up

395
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: being the last person ever saw him. And well Rick

396
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: knew they were gone and back in the sixties and

397
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: this is happening. This these guys disappeared. It was it

398
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: was a local or that went on for years. They

399
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: were gone, and there's series like they actually went out

400
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: to west somewhere and started their life over. But one

401
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: of the guys was married. But my wife never heard

402
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: from again. Mother never heard from from them again, and

403
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 1: all these kind of things. And I remember bought the bait.

404
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: They bought the bait and commented on in order to

405
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: like create a narrative. Yeah, they had. You know, there's

406
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: all sorts of stories going around talking about what happened

407
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: these guys and were they near to Wells No, I

408
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: think I think there had been working till like um

409
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: ten o'clock that night, whatever the job they had. They

410
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: got off work, went partying for a little bit and

411
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: then went went to the bait shop and on the

412
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: way out. Well, the one thing you should know about

413
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: the mass and lakes, and this goes back to that era,

414
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: they had outlawed driving on the lakes with a car

415
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: years decades ago. At the time these guys were doing this,

416
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: these guys knew that it was against a lot of

417
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: out in the lakes driving a car in the lake,

418
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: but they they apparently knew of a spot on a

419
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: lake Wabisa. I think I think a guy is either

420
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: a relative or someone they knew had an access road

421
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: that went out on this lake. And they've been going

422
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: out there at night fishing, and so it wasn't the

423
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: first time they've done this, and so they knew the spot.

424
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: Tell what they're driving. Ended driving in nineteen fifty Ford

425
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: Coupe and there's a eleven year old car and they

426
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: Rick Rick had done enough research on these guys, so

427
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: guy had some some knowledge of what the different theories were.

428
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: Because now it's now we're kind of going back and

429
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: forth between eras here. Rick didn't find their car. They

430
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: went down in February one, one nine. They sat in

431
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: the bottom of lake. Would be forty five years till

432
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: Rick Cruder found them. Now, so Drick's operating theory was that,

433
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, different theories on where these guys went down.

434
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: Some people thought it was like my Norman because they

435
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: found oil popping up in weird places once in a while.

436
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: They even had a site could come in and try

437
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: to figure out where they where they were. Where did

438
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: the psychic thing? Psychic thought Lake Manona, which was you know,

439
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: refrict me based off what it's like. Who knows he's

440
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: a psychic. Steve. He stood on the shore and god

441
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: whatever vibes he thought he was getting food brought a

442
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: psych again, well it was a family or or who

443
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: brought it him out, had no idea. I mean, it

444
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: would be an interesting guy to get ahold of. Well

445
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: he's probably long gone but now but you know, well

446
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: some of that stuff, it's not some of the psychics

447
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: duty and once while, there's some weird things they do.

448
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: So he stands on the beach. But I think I

449
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: think one of the stories this is gonna be a

450
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: long story, but um no, no, this story is not

451
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: long enough. But one of the one of the things

452
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: that the psychic um But they I think they actually

453
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: went out and searched one of the sites. He was

454
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: getting some vibe off and I think they found that

455
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: vibe dead people throw off at the bottom of a lake.

456
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: He was getting that vibe. Yeah, I'm not an expert.

457
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: On psychics, but I think they actually did do a

458
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: search based on something that he Um sensed, and I

459
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: think they found like a steel beam up there or

460
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: something or something. There was something out there, but it

461
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: was just not not the car obviously. So Rick Um pat,

462
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, I appreciate you. Bringing up stuff like

463
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: this makes me so gets me so agitated. I'm with

464
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: I'm with you, because psychics and that kind of stuff,

465
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: I just always And then they found a beam. Yeah,

466
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: so you dive around the bottom leg loan Behold there's

467
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: a beam, and the psychics says, oh, you know, I

468
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: knew it was something, but well, you know, I thought

469
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: it was a car with two young gentlemen in it.

470
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: But it turns out it was a beam. But I'm

471
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: guessing it's like like a lots of things when you

472
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: screw up. He just kind of quietly disappear and hope

473
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: no one brings it up again. So the psych this

474
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: shows the mystery and desperation. Yeah, and and and that's

475
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: another whole aspect of finding people after the long gone

476
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: that rick talked about. It was pretty interesting. But so

477
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: the psychic saw the picture. Rick Um always went back

478
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: this idea that he thinks that they went on on

479
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: Obisa based on the fact initially the police when they

480
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: were because you know, these guys are gone for couple

481
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: of days before anyone really realized, Hey, what happened to

482
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: Carl and Rod? You know. And then then once the

483
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: police got going, they went out and they found some

484
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: tracks coming off of this one um access road, and

485
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: so they'd find entire tracks. But what had happened in

486
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: the days A couple of days um that went by

487
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: before they were actually realized, oh god, these guys are gone.

488
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: What happened to them? And then they finally started backtracking

489
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: them and they gut and something. I think that bait

490
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: woman notified the police or something. Hey I had two

491
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: guys in here there night. Matchet description might have been them,

492
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: and so so Rick. That's one tangible thing Rick had

493
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: to operate on these tire tracks. But what had happened

494
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: was after they if they realized they're missing, they start

495
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: launching a search. Well, by that time that there had

496
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: been a warming um spell going on, so the lake

497
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: had been getting softer, the ices getting softer, sa is

498
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: like you know, like I said, late February, and by

499
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: the time they put airplanes up to go look for

500
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: holes in the ice, that kind of thing. There's as

501
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: much water on top of the ice, and people who

502
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: live in the north know how that happened in spring,

503
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: you know, late winter that they couldn't see anything noticeable

504
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 1: down there, and so that this petered out. There had

505
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 1: no no knowledge where these guys went tooth they went

506
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: off on with Wabisa or to die on Lake Monona.

507
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: But they're pretty sure they're probably out there somewhere. We're

508
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: both guys married, not just the one. I think. I

509
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: think the older guy, Carl stults year old think he

510
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: was married. So it was the younger guy. Was the

511
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: younger guy with was he court and the woman? Now

512
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: Rick brought it up, and then that's where, um, there

513
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: are some controversy there that never um it got kind

514
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: of interesting, was that there was some speculation that this Carl,

515
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: that the twenty three ye old guy, I was maybe

516
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: not the best the best husband. You know, that there's

517
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: some he was that basically he was hitting on her.

518
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: Basically I think that was a story. And but again

519
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,959
Speaker 1: this is not you know here, I feel like I'm

520
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: in the National Enquirer because typically as a reporter, you're

521
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: not comfortable with this. I'm not comfortable with this because

522
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: this is all stuff that that Um, it's kind of hearsay.

523
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: I never got this from anyone besides just filtering down

524
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: through the years. Another quick question, Um, and I didn't

525
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: catch us when you and I discussed this over breakfast

526
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: one day. Rick Krueger, the sonar enthusiast, I didn't catch

527
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: that he was aware. I didn't catch that this is

528
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: a personal mission of his. Yeah, was he did? He

529
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: remember it from childhood? He has a long history in

530
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: the man asked an area of looking looking for stuff

531
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: in the bottom of lakes. So this story of the

532
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: two guys disappearing, that was even I knew about it,

533
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: and and the reason I really connected on the story

534
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: with Rick after you know, I didn't know he didn't

535
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: know he was the guy phoned until we're out in

536
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,479
Speaker 1: the boat that day. But you knew that I had

537
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: been found. Yeah, I knew have been found. And I

538
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: also had I have a bit of memory, Like I

539
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: think I said to you in my email are day,

540
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: it haunts the ship out of me because I remember

541
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: when I was eight years old fishing on there's these

542
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: four big stacks and on the Isthmus in Madison between

543
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: the two lakes, and we were fishing bluegills out there

544
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: and my dad I was telling my uncle about these

545
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: two guys that disappeared. And my dad was a firefighter,

546
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: so he was on these rescue or those ambulances in

547
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: those days, so he knew all these stories that were

548
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: going on, and probably and probably some of the stories

549
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: I'm telling your stuff from her from dad talking about it,

550
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: because he was involved in the search and stuff trying

551
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: to find these guys and what happened to them. So

552
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: I remember hearing this story while we're fishing bluegills. But

553
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: these two guys that disappeared falls to the lake on

554
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: a in the car and they're illegally out in the

555
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: lake and it fell through. And so this is always

556
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: in my head that what a hell of a way

557
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: to go. You know. I was a guy who ice

558
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: fish is a lot driving across the lakes. I always

559
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: have that back in my mind, these two guys that

560
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: when you put on that fast you're not getting horrifying.

561
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna talk about being afraid of

562
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: snagging into him. No, No, that don't really crossed my mind.

563
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, dude I went to

564
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: high school with got drunk and stole a boat and

565
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: crashed into a buoy and they couldn't find his body.

566
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: And then my other body, Craigs uh uncle was out

567
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: fishing and was just working the shoreline and saw an

568
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: ankle because see like an ankle in a shoe and

569
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the body was all obscured by weeds. Yeah. Yeah,

570
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: he didn't like that one bit. Spencer, I now have

571
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: my story straight on this uh research project. Did you

572
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: care to relate your earlier perform to rate your earlier performance? Um,

573
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember what I said now, I got so

574
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: caught up in pat story which signor what I said before?

575
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: So this kind of contradicts that third theory saying that

576
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: bucks would shed their antlers to blend in with dose

577
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: and not stick out like malnourished critters to these predators.

578
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: So this was published last year by university by researchers

579
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: from the University of Montana and it was in Nature,

580
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: Ecology and Evolution, and this show the evolutionary tie between

581
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: wolves and wind elk shed their antlers. Okay, so they

582
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: discovered and they noticed this that in Yellowstone National Park,

583
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: since wolves were reintroduced that wolves hunted bulls who had

584
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: already shed their antlers over those that still had them

585
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: during late winter. So this suggested to them that the

586
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: antlers were a great deterrent to wolves, that they used

587
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: the as weapons to keep away um the wolves. And so,

588
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: which is like a little that's intuitive. Do you imagine

589
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: you're you're like, how effectively the elk wields them or not?

590
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: Like how is that a how is there an upside

591
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: to attack in something with twelve daggers sticking off the

592
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: top of its head? Right? And but I think this

593
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: explained to them, like you know, oh, we thought that

594
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: they grew antlers to court females, but this show's no,

595
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: there's actually like great benefit to deterring predators. One of

596
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: the quotes is we believe elk evolved to keep their

597
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 1: antlers longer than any other North American deer because they

598
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: use their antlers as an effective deterrent against wolf predation. Yeah,

599
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: you know not. An interesting thing about elt um is

600
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: the window in which they drop as a very wide window.

601
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: You know, you can be outspring bear hunting and see

602
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: bulls carrying their antlers from the year before. In April, yep,

603
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: and so this kind of goes against that third if

604
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: you believe that this doesn't really work for that and

605
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: so these elk are kind of uh like, since the

606
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: introduction of wolves, there's a you know, pros and cons.

607
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: So if you keep your antlers longer, you can deter wolves,

608
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: but you don't get a head start on growing. If

609
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: you drop your antlers sooner, you get a head start

610
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: on growing and courtship in the fall, but you're more

611
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: likely to get killed by wolves. And so they think

612
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: this could maybe play out long term, you know, change

613
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: the things that uh, elk in Yellowstone noticeably keep their

614
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: antlers longer than maybe you know, the areas just outside

615
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: of there that don't have wolves. That's good stuff. Yeah,

616
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: interesting to track over time, really interesting, and and that

617
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: uh like I had written an article a few years

618
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: ago on you know, talking about the evolutionary reasons of

619
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: why deer would shed their antlers not just the photo

620
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: period into saccer on thing, and uh it was always

621
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: real cool with that third theory unless something came out

622
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: that went against it, because, like you said before, this

623
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: is really hard be like, yep, that's why or even

624
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: to you know, I think that we're ever going to know,

625
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: and this pretty much goes against that third theory. Yeah,

626
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: it's it's what you're looking at um, things that would

627
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: would influence timing size right, things that would like reinforce

628
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: that are not reinforce. That a thing that the things

629
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: that I think about with with the antlers is um.

630
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: They are a reflection of um. Like proportionately, they get

631
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: so much bigger, right, proportional to the dearest body size.

632
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 1: They get so much bigger each time by growing new

633
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: ones all the time. Never mind. So it's it's so far,

634
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: it's so puzzling, like when you said earlier that maybe

635
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: bark is brown just because it's brown, Like there's no reason.

636
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: I feel like this is so unique to serve it

637
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: that there has to be like reasons behind it. This

638
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: wasn't just accidental that the antlers dropped off this winter.

639
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: You know. It seems like huge family, this huge family

640
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: of animals all has the same strategy and it's still

641
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: specific to them. Like you said before, like you can't

642
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: think of aquatic creatures that do something like this. And

643
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: then you get into the weird one. We're gonna get

644
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: back to these drowned fellers in a minute. You get

645
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: to the weird one, which is how a female caribou

646
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: we'll grow as at antlers, and it hurts that they're

647
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: not synchronized with the males. She has her own time

648
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: of years. She grows in her own time of year

649
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: that she sheds, and it's not in alignment with when

650
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: males grow and shed. And so if it's all sexual display, right,

651
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: it's not meant to time out. It doesn't time out

652
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 1: with rot and she keeps them for a different time period.

653
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: And that's how that story starts to make some gravy. Yeah,

654
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: when's the handler exp We're gonna be here soon, hopefully.

655
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: Let me now, I love to bug him, Folks who

656
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: want to prepare for the animal expert being on um

657
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: He his new book. His name's Doug Emlyn. His new

658
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: book is called Animal Weapons. And guess what it's about.

659
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: NI take a stab anglers and teeth and claws. Yeah,

660
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: good job, yuh all right? So Rick, okay, Rick, it's curious.

661
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: Freddy Krueger's cousin, Rick is curious about what happened to

662
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: the missing ice anglers, who may or may not have

663
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: been fooling around. It depends. We have to get the

664
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: woman on the show to find out who she was

665
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: flirting with, if anyone, if anyone, That just goes to

666
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: show us how our minds work, that we assume there

667
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: was a flirtation happening in that car, in that coup.

668
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: But it could have been that they were just buddies.

669
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: Why isn't that possible, Pat, Why does it have to

670
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: be that they were flirting? Well, the time, time of day,

671
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: men flirt. I'd like to get around the show. So,

672
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: so where'd you leave us off? Okay? So can I

673
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: stop you? During my research? I think I missed an

674
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: important details to you said that they were out there illegally.

675
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: You were you were not tracking because you were reading right.

676
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: So I feel like I have parts in Yeah, but

677
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: what was the illegal part? That the illegal part is

678
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: that to this day you cannot drive a car on

679
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: the mass and lakes that you can you can go

680
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: out there if you have flotation stuff rigged on your

681
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: a t V. Your No one brings a car with

682
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: flotation because it's a refuge y no, Because I think

683
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: I think I think they did have um probably enough

684
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: accidents for people are going on to the ice back

685
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: in the forties or the thirties some place back in

686
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: the er because as long as I've been alive, you

687
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: cannot drive in the past some lakes and like these days,

688
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: most people have flotation devices for the a t V

689
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: or something and they im limited to that. But yeah,

690
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: I don't think there's one area of Lake Minona where

691
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: it's open year round because the power company has an

692
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: outlet there. But um, it's on all four the lakes.

693
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: You can't do it. Um. So so these guys, you know,

694
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: they're they're missing now, they've been missing for forever and

695
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: it's basically a local legend by time Rick is investigating it.

696
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: In the early two thousands and Rick brick up this time.

697
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: One thing we were starting to talk about I think

698
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: was he had um he was connected with the massive

699
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: mass and police department, the Sheriff's department because he was

700
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: always with all his great expertise and soon are and

701
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: underwater stuff and you know, all a different technology is

702
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: he was a he's a radio tech guy, so he's

703
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: always into all the stuff for um, electronics for fishing.

704
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: But as time when out of this fishing and the electronics,

705
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: he started to have more fun finding stuff on the

706
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: mob and the lakes than investigating stuff and he's a diver,

707
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 1: so that kind of stuff would intrigue him. He got

708
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: he's at the point now where he spends much more

709
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: time still sleuthing on the massive legs for hidden stuff,

710
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: and he's falling, like, um, oh gosh, just I have

711
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 1: a whole list of stuff in this article I wrote

712
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: about it. But so if we get back to the

713
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: idea that what's the most intriguing thing, He told me,

714
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: stick to me that story, and right away that I'm

715
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: he's telling me the story in the boat and I'm

716
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: you're the guy that falling those two guys because I

717
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: was shocked. I had had no idea who I was

718
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: sitting the boat with. And now he's my hero because

719
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: I thought, what a hell of a thing to solve

720
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: a forty five year old mystery. So we're talking about

721
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, he he new they went into that lake.

722
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: I figured that's still the best possibility out there. But still,

723
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: even when you have tire tracks going out off the landing,

724
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: who knows what they want the psychic think? He thinks

725
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: that like, so Rick Rook's pretty sure it's it's it's

726
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: on obsa because that's the only physical evidence it was.

727
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: Those tire tracks. So he he starts. He he's he's methodical.

728
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: He just started laying tracks with his his boat. And

729
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: this is like, this is now like I think it's

730
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: July twenty two of two thousand and six, forty five

731
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: and a half years after the fact. He comes along

732
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: on one of his passes and this is just blind

733
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: He's just out there blindly searching a quadrant out there. Yeah,

734
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: he's just you know, doing And he's got all the

735
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: GPS stuff too, so he's probably pretty well locked on

736
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: knowing not to recover ground because that's he's doing this

737
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: whole all over the mass and lakes. He's out there

738
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: on these grids all the time. So he's back in

739
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: that corner of this this big end of Lake Wabisa,

740
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: and he comes across on a screen he sees something

741
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: big on the bottom at forty five degree angle, and

742
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: he's looking at it and thinking, what the hell would

743
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: that be? And he's only thinking think because he said

744
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: I had had enough of a shape looked like could

745
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: be a car upside down on the bottom lake, upside down,

746
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: upside down. Yeah, that's because it was the bottom of

747
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: the car is flat, and he saw this degree angle things.

748
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and so he so he um he

749
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: gott I think I think when he dies, I think

750
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: he always gets his wife with him. So I don't

751
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: know if his wife was with him the time where

752
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: he went back and got her. But he he dove down.

753
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: It was thirty five ft down down there, and um

754
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: he he um. Of course went straight to the license plate,

755
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: and I think he he said he wasn't supposed to

756
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: bring up the license plate because you know, basically it's

757
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: um he supposed to be tamping and stuff from the

758
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: lake bottom. But he thought, well, this is pretty exceptional,

759
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: so he brought the license plate up and he's got

760
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: got the numbers off. But in contact of the guy

761
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: from the de checked as he knew in the mass

762
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: and the Folice department or Sarty from my kitmeer which

763
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: wish department was now. But the guy ran the numbers out,

764
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: you know, from the back of the back in the

765
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: sixties to figure out that was the car. Sure enough

766
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: it was I think it was um. I think it

767
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: was the guy um uh rick it was. It was

768
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: um Ronald Ronald Wicks car, I think, the twenty year

769
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: old guy. So then they know they had they had

770
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: the car now, and so, of course, being a morbid guy,

771
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: I am. I asked Rick, when you're down there poking

772
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: around in that car, could you see skeletons inside the car?

773
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: And he said no. He said it was just he

774
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: was smuch silt down there and smuch silted filtered into

775
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: the car. He couldn't see anything in the car, you know,

776
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: So it's not like he did, you know, try to

777
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 1: look in there and figure out what you could see.

778
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: But he said it was a gooeymoky mess by that

779
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: point forty five years in the bottom of a lake.

780
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: So then, um, that was like the twenty one to July.

781
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: I believe it took him about two weeks. They're out

782
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: back out there with a salvage barginal with a crane

783
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: and everything, and they there's a center picture this morning

784
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: on email of that great picture. Yeah, this old rusty

785
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: coop when she was cracked. But they had it all

786
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: and harnesses, and I think they used and then might

787
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: use some flotation devices to to lift it off the bottom.

788
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure I got this right where they

789
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: didn't find, you know, the remains until they got the

790
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: car up on the surface and then to do um

791
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: at that point it becomes an investigation. So they they

792
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: found they followed the two skeletons in there, and the

793
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: one guy's hand was stuck in the door like you've

794
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: been trying to get it open. Yeah, And and so

795
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: that's that's the story. That's all Ron Wick and um

796
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: Carl Stultz met the end, you know, while I fishing

797
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: three o'clock in the morning. And then they're only bought

798
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: in the lake for forty or five years, and all

799
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: the legends about them disappearing to start a new life

800
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: is all evaporated. And but for me, it's just a

801
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: great um story of a guy with a hobby who

802
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: um the police used, you know, used him a lot,

803
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: his help a lot over the years to find John

804
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: victims and and even did for a while diving. Helped

805
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: him dive and find Drawning victims. And he's it. It

806
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: was um really hard emotionally because you he said, at

807
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: first when he was doing this, he never wanted to

808
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: be on the site when the relatives would come out

809
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: and identify the body. He just didn't want to deal

810
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: with the emotions of that. And he said one year though,

811
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: Um a woman wrote to him after the fact and

812
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: thanked him for giving her closure that she could she

813
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: now knew what happened to her son with certainty. And Ron,

814
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: I mean Rick sudden when he got that letter. From

815
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: that point on he was no longer um. He always

816
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: would hang around them and you know, aid do the

817
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: aid and comfort routine with these people because he realized,

818
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: you know, it was hard for him to pull a

819
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: body out of there, because it has to be hard

820
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: to be in the water like that, and it's not

821
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: exactly clear water usually, and all of a sudden you're

822
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: face to face with a body. You know that's gonna

823
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: be hard. But but Rick was doing that for a

824
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: number of years. But then but like a lot of things,

825
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, he's now in his sixties, and when the

826
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: police for using him the almost in the shift permans

827
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: using him the most is back in an era twenty

828
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: years ago where that you know, all these different police

829
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: agencies weren't weren't at that stage in the development of

830
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: technology where there as good at good using that stuff

831
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: as he was. So they really used him as a tool.

832
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: You know, they call him Radio Rick. He's always out

833
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: there looking at this stuff. And it's it's a cool

834
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: story too, because to this day is still doing it.

835
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: You know, he's he's always he's been trying to trying

836
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: to get the nailed don with some certainty Ordisruddings, you know,

837
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: flake flight path going in the lake. You know what's

838
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: still out there. And he's still wandering through the other

839
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: piece of the plane that haven't been following yet. And

840
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: then he's also got he sells um fisherman his way

841
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: points like he has always wipe. He's got like I

842
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: think four hundred four thousand way points of things like

843
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: underwater rock piles that no one knows about. Um, you know,

844
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: people building in the old days illegal fish cribs and

845
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: dropped them into the lakes. You know, if they're going

846
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: he sells that information. He says, he basically gas money.

847
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: We're for twenty bucks and you want my way points,

848
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. You You know what what they represent and

849
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: what's something what's at that at that spot. Is he

850
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: a good fisherman? I think he is, But now he

851
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: says he just soon go out and um look for stuff. Yeah,

852
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about someone to talking about his reluctance to

853
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: be around the victims families and and uh, we discussed

854
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 1: something on this show one time that prompted a first

855
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: responder to write in it's really touching, kind of dark

856
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 1: story about him finding it was a nine year old

857
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: boy who drowned, and finding that boy and getting him

858
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: up on the bank of the river and sitting with

859
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 1: him for sitting with the boy's body for a long time,

860
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: waiting for someone to come. And it was just like

861
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: like a life altering experience. You know, this is the

862
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: way it seemed like the boy could just sat up. Yeah,

863
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: the only time, only time. People have asked me a

864
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: number of times for some reason, um about my day

865
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: when he was a firefighter. No, they'll make these assumptions

866
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: that dad had a lot of traumatic things he had

867
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: to deal with as a firefighter. I said, you know,

868
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: he might have, but the only one I remembered was

869
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: one when he was on the ambulance crew and had

870
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: to pull an entire family out of you know, head

871
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: on collision, you know, with her in a station wagon

872
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 1: like the kind of we drove. And he had six kids,

873
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: and that's in to haunt him, remember him, this kind

874
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: of you know, talk to my mom about you tell it.

875
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: I shook him up. You know, I'm pulling these little

876
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: kids out of the car and I'm sure, man, that's

877
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: just hard stuffed, you know, I can't imagine doing that. Okay,

878
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: so what should we jump into next? I'le Royal. Yeah,

879
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: I like it. Wolves. We kind of jumped off the

880
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: early introduction of Steve's death, you know, and he was

881
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: right back in the game pretty quickly. Yeah, but I

882
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: was just curious about this. He just wanted the intro

883
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: the game out and I thought, and then he did

884
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: so good once he got rolling, I got jealous. I

885
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: came back in hard. So I was like, a, but

886
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: you you admit your ferilties. Always always amire of that.

887
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: I was like, man, he's kicking the ass. I'm gonna

888
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: get back in here. Well, I have to say that

889
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: the Ile Royal story, um that you guys, Um Spencer

890
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: I talked about back in February, and well, the one

891
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: thing I have to say, Stevid, I like working in

892
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: the articles of more working out for meat either this

893
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that um, you know, Scott got some stuff.

894
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: It's got some depth to you know, where you get

895
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: people on the phone, you watch and read different things

896
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: that have been written about these things. And the Ile

897
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: roy one was thinking one of the more complex things

898
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: I've worked now where you um, we should probably back

899
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: up a little bit, and it's basically I think that

900
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 1: the table try I'll try to not I really struggle

901
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: how to how do you even start writing this story?

902
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: But um, the way way I talked about getting into

903
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: the story was back in October the UM Park Service

904
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: trapped for wolves, dropped my Royal, and then in January

905
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: we got a pullar vote Vertex and I'll Royal and

906
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: if you have for people who can't picture this, it's

907
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: up in the very top of Lake Superior, kind of

908
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: the northwestern corner using my hands here in the studio

909
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 1: until you can't see it closer to Canada, owned by Michigan. Yeah. Yeah,

910
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: it's like forty five miles from north of of Holton County, Michigan,

911
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: and only about thirteen fifteen miles depending on where you

912
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: look at it off of Ontario and in the corner

913
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: of Minnesota up there. And so it's in the national park.

914
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: It's National Parks since nineteen forty and it's been a

915
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: National Wilderness areas since um, I think since the Wilders

916
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 1: was past I think sixty four. So it's a really remote,

917
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: remote island in a spot um, I think it's about

918
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 1: two hundred and one square miles or yeah, and then

919
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: it's like about nine miles long four and a half

920
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 1: miles wide, something like that. But for a comparison size wise,

921
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: it's the same size is Zion National Park, and it's

922
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: twice the size of Arches National Park. So maybe that

923
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: helps for reference. As Pad tells the story, and the

924
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: best we know from history is that wolves were never

925
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: on the on this island until until about nineteen and

926
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: the moose were out there they think in the nineteen tens,

927
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: nineteen really nineteen hundreds of the first decade of the

928
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, and the moose pretty much for like fifty

929
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: years just you know, went up and down in the crashes,

930
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: over browsing, all those kind of things. When the wolves

931
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: came out there and the wolves peaked at a bought,

932
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: I think it's the nineteen eighty I believe is that

933
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: wolves some thing it was, and they're crossing on the ice,

934
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 1: and the wolves and the moose severe winters. That's that's

935
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 1: that's the theory that they crossed on the ice. And

936
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: you know, because we had much more consistent winters, you know,

937
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, fifty years ago than we were

938
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: having these days. These days, we're not getting those consistent

939
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: land become essential ice bridges between Ile Royal and the

940
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: um Ontario on Minnesota region and Dell. Be out of

941
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: your pet that the wolf population peaked in fifty wolves,

942
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: the moose population peaked in at fifty God, is that

943
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: many about there at one time? Population is not that anymore,

944
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: and I think I think right now they're back up

945
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: to they're they're pretty high again right now. The most

946
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: recent census I've read about third day up there and

947
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: when the fastest things I just thought about this was that, Yeah,

948
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: this one guy made a great point that we don't

949
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: know for certain how the moose got out there. That's

950
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: he's I think he's a National Park archaeologist type guy.

951
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: There's lots of stories that back in the early nineteen

952
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: hundreds that Minnesota was moving moose all over the place,

953
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: and so who knows for certain that they put some

954
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: moose out in the island. You know, people are doing

955
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: that kind of thing years. But was it that is

956
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: it well known? And uh, is it well known that

957
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: in the historic record there was a period when they

958
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: were not there, when wolves were not there, yeah, yeah,

959
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: you know, they have no records as far as I

960
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: from the reading I did and interviews I did, there's

961
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: no record of wolves being on the island until I

962
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: and Moos moost too, Okay, so we know that it

963
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: was absent moose. Yeah. And what what What the island

964
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: was famous for until basically nineteen hundreds was links and caribou,

965
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: and the cariboo disappeared aud the links, as they always say,

966
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: blinked out in the nineteen thirties, you know, for God.

967
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: But but you know, I happen to be doing a

968
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: story about it about six months ago on the Aposta Islands,

969
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: and some of the research has been doing there on

970
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: the on the little predators that populate the Appassa Islands.

971
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: And it's not uncommon for these islands. They just have

972
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: some small ecosystems. Uh, stuff comes and goes. They get

973
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: out there and they overrun their habitat and wherever. They

974
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: just realize they can't sustain themselves for the isolated population,

975
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: and they go out. There's enough wolf on an island

976
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: called Stockton Island off on the Apostles that was there

977
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: and people saw it a few times and then they

978
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 1: found found this body one day if you're that presently

979
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: wolf that was out there halk out there, no one,

980
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: no one really knows. So so that's that's kind of

981
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: those weird things in nature happened in the you know,

982
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: in the area around Puget Sound in the time that

983
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 1: I that I lived out there in the Pacific Northwest.

984
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: You'd have just think like, oh, a bear showed up

985
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: on an island that historically doesn't have them, and it

986
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 1: kind of runs around and gets in trouble vanishes. Elks

987
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: show up on the island that they didn't hasn't historically happened,

988
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: like it swam out, you know, and they'll be in

989
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: the news like, oh my god, no one's seen the

990
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: elk here in seventy five years. But then the elk

991
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: swims off gets hit by a car, which is constantly

992
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 1: happening where like small little populations of things or single

993
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: animals will will find these places. So you can imagine

994
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: the right situation. Yeah, just too Yeah, as well as

995
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: you get to show up out there at the same time,

996
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: you could create some highly volatile, you know, a little

997
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: population of animals in a in a weird spot. So

998
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: that so they had these um, I think what was

999
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: one of the things I found kind of fun about

1000
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: the story was that right now here we have a

1001
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: real scientific debate going on over the re established this

1002
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: wolf population on an island that really had no record

1003
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: of wolves, um, you know, sixty seventy years before, and

1004
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: and yet that humans have a much longer history on

1005
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 1: the island that than than wolves do, and that moose

1006
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: do you know they have these archaeological findings of people

1007
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: making copper tools, you know, thousands of years ago out

1008
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: there in the copper veins in those islands. Yeah, that

1009
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,439
Speaker 1: kind of kind of interesting stuff like that. And plus

1010
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: the voyagers all came through there, and it says, and

1011
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: there's been mining and more until it became a park.

1012
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: There is all sorts of cool stuff going out there,

1013
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: as far as logging, you name it. People out there,

1014
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, exploiting it somehow, and we're as I think,

1015
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: the big question is, you know, it kept coming up

1016
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: a lot in these different debates, is you know, if

1017
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: wolves and moose are meant to be out there, why

1018
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: did it take until basically modern times and to cross

1019
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: those on those ice bridges When I went out there earlier,

1020
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, I never heard that theory that that when

1021
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: Minnesota's moving moose around and doing various introductions reintroductions, that

1022
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 1: there was the idea that maybe someone turns them out

1023
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: as soon as unprovable, might might be a wive's tale.

1024
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: And I mean that's you know, I think you and

1025
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: I and all of us in this room have been

1026
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: we have tried tracking on the wives tales. Is just

1027
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're plausible given the given the

1028
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: era of what people are doing. I mean, I was

1029
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: to get Anacosti island off the Quebec for the guy

1030
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 1: in this big turned into a deer um sanctuary basically

1031
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: now animal taste tool. I'm sure there's still hunting deer

1032
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 1: out there, but they're moving, moving fish around, you know,

1033
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: dropping fish out of airplanes, and the moultin lakes, doing

1034
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff a hundred years ago that you know,

1035
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: these days we just wouldn't do unless we really know.

1036
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good sign, but we think is

1037
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: a good scientific justification for it. Um So, and so

1038
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: they peaked. The wolves peaked in nineteen eighty and then

1039
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: they I think they're tapering downhill pretty steadily. And then

1040
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: about um a male wolf showed up apparently, and it's

1041
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: just a good job breeding the wolves that were remaining

1042
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 1: out there that there's basically he apparently his jeans got

1043
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: every wolf that was out there. Old Greg guy, what's

1044
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: his name? And it's great having this this this expert

1045
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: here shows up and just starts breeding his ass off.

1046
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: He was responsible at one point for fifty six percent

1047
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: of the wolves on the island. Those were his offspring. Yeah,

1048
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: it was, it was something. There was some stay like

1049
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: he had hugely possible for like forty five pups, and

1050
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 1: then his forty pups were responsible for like forty pups

1051
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: or something like that. So good details. Yeah, done by

1052
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: um by last fall. So I think they had I

1053
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: think Diane said this and um she talked about how

1054
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: it came down to just a male and a female

1055
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: offspring of his. I think, I mean he's left. But

1056
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: in the meantime, as this was going on over the

1057
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,479
Speaker 1: last twenty some years and the wolves did this, said,

1058
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: these things are inbred. You know, they're they're turning up

1059
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: with you know, being born blind, web feet, messed up

1060
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: spines and some of the congenital stuff from the predetory

1061
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: stuff that like in the spinal problems you know, like

1062
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: I think Dave meets this famous wolf BALLA just said,

1063
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: you know, it comes to parlo virus and some of

1064
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: other things they were trying to say might have caused

1065
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: the wolf the wolf population to come. Di said, well,

1066
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: you know that was that goes That goes on the

1067
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: mainland too, but not this in the White Mouth. The

1068
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 1: way we're thinking out here in the islands. They're quite

1069
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: sure how all these things happened. But but the final

1070
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: conclusion was that they it was they were inbread. There's

1071
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: not that the population couldn't be saved. They show up,

1072
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: they first show up in the population peaks thirty six

1073
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: years later at what number wolves, and then dives off

1074
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: until recently when it was down to just two. And

1075
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: they don't know the founding event. They don't know how

1076
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: many wolves moved out there for the founding event, if

1077
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: there's just two individuals or I don't. I couldn't find

1078
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: a thing that I actually put a number on that,

1079
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, And that's which is um, you know that's

1080
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: now that now they have these four alter last last

1081
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: last winter, and then um, that's all this discussion about

1082
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: what we gonna have the ice perges anymore to get

1083
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: new wolves coming in, and so you know, should man

1084
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: step in and intervene here and re established that wolf population?

1085
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: And it's been up debate going on for probably close

1086
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: to this this whole dec people fighting about this, you know,

1087
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: in scientific circles, in the whole philosophy of it. You

1088
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: know it should man be out there tinkering with mother

1089
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: nature now, you know, because they because chances are we

1090
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: didn't put the we can't start wed not not put

1091
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: them out there. So should we now go in and

1092
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: supplement them and supplement them and re established something that

1093
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: um was that naturally was coming down, going down, backing

1094
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: up a little bit. I remember if it was you

1095
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: that presented this or if it was someplace else. I

1096
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: read it, But they said that after the war, a

1097
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 1: bunch of trappers came back. I reported that it was.

1098
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: It was from It was really really people want to

1099
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: go online and read watch a really good Suminar. There

1100
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: was a Suminar done in two thousand and thirteen. They

1101
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: had these guys um Dave Meach and Ralph Peterson and

1102
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: similar um Well that the anthropologist guy, that historian really

1103
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: a good thing that had the things they did in Minneapolis.

1104
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: You can go online and search it. It's worth a

1105
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: two hour set to watch that. Um So, where was

1106
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: I here Wars? Yeah, so, so one of the stories

1107
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: is that they think, you know, it's it seems plausible

1108
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: that during the war when all the Canadians and Americans

1109
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: were over um whiskey whiskey to World War two, World

1110
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: War two, you know, thanks Steve um. During World War two,

1111
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, every able bodied man was over in Europe

1112
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: basically were out in the Pacific fighting, fighting the war.

1113
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of these guys that

1114
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: would have been trapping wolves in that region, we're all

1115
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: off at war. Well in their absence, they think, you know,

1116
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: when the theories is that well, under absence, these wolves

1117
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: probably started coming back up in numbers and started dispersing.

1118
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: And if there's always consistent Ice Bridges Price got out

1119
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: there from that region of Ontario and in Minnesota and

1120
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: got this population rolling out there. So that's kind of

1121
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: what what the what the theory is. But I guess

1122
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: from those stories that it's plausible, but no one really

1123
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: we had no where like track the kind of stuff,

1124
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of speculation. But um so, when

1125
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: these wolves are transplanted, then from. I can't remember where

1126
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: they came from. The first four they brought out there

1127
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: for miship Picton Island off to the east, or really

1128
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: got them one of them after all this debate about

1129
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: ice bridges not being um happening anymore if you're not

1130
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: getting consistent ice bridges anymore. Well, as soon as they

1131
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: put some wolves out there to supplement to start bringing

1132
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: re establishing things, one of them takes off across the

1133
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: ice bridge home runs home. Yeah, because he was that one.

1134
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: I think they were think they may have been from

1135
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: that part of Ontario, and so he basically runs home.

1136
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: Another one tried to get home, but they think it

1137
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: encountered prior bat was breaking up again and just came

1138
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: back to the island. But I thought the irony of

1139
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: it all. You know, you're trying to re established me

1140
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: and you dropping them into the happy hunting grounds man. Yeah. Yeah,

1141
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: but then the homing instrict and I think, um, I

1142
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: think Dave meets seven. You when you try to transplant

1143
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: wolves from that close to their home range, you know

1144
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: that they know, they you know that it's another trying

1145
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: to They've been going out, you know, farther away and

1146
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: picking them off. Other places I think they've been. They've

1147
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: been talking about the next group they'll try to get,

1148
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: probably from the up of Michigan to bring them up there,

1149
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: and you get that diversity from around the whole region,

1150
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: not just from a couple of a couple of wolves

1151
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: that came onto the is Yeah, the first ones they pulled,

1152
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: they pulled them from an island that's owned by you know,

1153
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: an island in Ontario. Oh yeah, are you asking me? Yeah,

1154
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: I think that's correct, right, they pulled Well, I think

1155
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: then the first flour something I think. I don't know

1156
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: what they I don't know. We're all four came from.

1157
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: For certain, I'd be just pulling out my asp. I

1158
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: tried to say that. I don't remember offhand. Maybe Spencer

1159
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: can look it up, but I know at least one

1160
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: of them was that one that went back to the Ontario,

1161
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 1: but that was only about fifteen mile john to cross

1162
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: the ice there and then as home range is probably

1163
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: farther inland, but apparently that's where it was last headed.

1164
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: You know, when they were tracking it, they think it

1165
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: was going back and then once it got back in

1166
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: this home range and started doing what wolves do, just

1167
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, doing there they're they're hunting, and so that

1168
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: one's gone. But then, um, I think right now they're

1169
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: at fifteen wolves. The most recent come they brought They

1170
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: brought Marit and they brought someone from this I can

1171
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,919
Speaker 1: I can never pronounce the island's name, but it's um

1172
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: Misia pick a ten or something like that. Yeah, it's

1173
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: off the east and that's a whole another story. But

1174
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: um it. So now they got it back a fifteen

1175
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: and now you know, now it's gonna be an It's

1176
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: basical an experiment, you know, because now you have you're

1177
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: getting any wolves from these different regions, while how do

1178
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: you get along? Now they form packs with different strange

1179
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 1: wolves from different areas. It sounds very with being the

1180
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: national parks. Are you know, expected to be a little

1181
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: bit hands off, or that you're trying to mitigate human

1182
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: car like like the Yellowstone wolf reintroduction. Right as you're saying, well,

1183
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: we know that they were extirpated from human activities, so

1184
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: we're putting them back as a way of rebuilding from

1185
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: our own impacts. But this is um, this is not

1186
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: that right. And some people are trying to make the

1187
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: argument that well, humans are causing um the climate change

1188
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: that's causing us not to have the ice bridges. They're

1189
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: trying to make that argument that still human caused. And

1190
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: the point Dave Meach brings up is, Okay, tell me

1191
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: all that lack of ice bridges, it's actually hurting the island. Though,

1192
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,439
Speaker 1: can you really make the argument what exactly is being

1193
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: heard out there? And and you like one thing they're

1194
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: they're looking into, I think it would be part of

1195
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: this whole interesting develop materials we watch this unfold is well,

1196
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: the moose and ile royal are doing very well compared

1197
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: to the moose just a few miles to the to

1198
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 1: the west and uh no, oldn Northern Minnesota. Yeah, and

1199
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: places where you have white tail deer currying brain worm

1200
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: typically cause a cause problem for moose. Well, the moose

1201
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: aren't having brain worms out on an ile roll because

1202
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: the deer can't get out there because you know, if

1203
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: they wanted to cross some the ice pridgel has but

1204
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: no icebridge, so that the absence of an ice bridge

1205
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: might be benefiting the moose by nothing coming out throughout

1206
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: across the ice that could could kill them. So you

1207
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,919
Speaker 1: make that argument, So it's really hard like the moose

1208
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: population benefits there ye. Maybe someday it'll be a great

1209
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: sourceer for moves could be. But you know, so you

1210
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: have a hard time making the argument that's human caused

1211
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: and that we're now, you know, fixing a human caused

1212
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: um situation. Well as being the guy who grew up

1213
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: in Michigan, we took like a lot of pride. It

1214
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: really informed the the Michigan mystique knowing that we had

1215
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: this island, they had a bunch of wolves and moose

1216
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: on it. Like you, you grew up very aware of that.

1217
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: And there's an element of look, how wild and cool

1218
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: our state is because we got like the up and

1219
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: we got this crazy island's got these wolves and moves

1220
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: on it. Isn't it cool? So I could see that

1221
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 1: losing that would make people sad, that it would feel

1222
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: end of nature ish, Yeah, and that that would wind

1223
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 1: up motivating you to find all kinds of justifications to

1224
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: maintain just the spectacle. And there's been um I think

1225
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: meat started this research back in the sixties. You're staying

1226
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: the wolf and moose in your actions and how those things,

1227
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, fluctuate, and so they have a good along

1228
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: running research going out there. And I think is that

1229
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: Michigan Tech University. So it's a lot of cool stuff

1230
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: that's come out to the island. But then you get

1231
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: back in the whole philosophical discussions of um, well this

1232
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: a olderness area or not? And should man be in there?

1233
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: You know that, you know, you always get that great

1234
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: quote um about you know, land should be untrammeled by

1235
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: man's and no interference basically for man that let nature

1236
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: nuts course out there? Why we let we always have

1237
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: it thrown at us all the time? When should let

1238
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: nature take its course? Well, when it comes to the wolf,

1239
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people don't they want they

1240
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 1: want that wolf out there. That there's something about wolves

1241
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: that people really are intrigued by them. They protect them.

1242
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 1: It used to be a little bit like zoo keeping though, Yeah,

1243
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: exactly like that. But it harkens back to all these too.

1244
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 1: The we always talked about it, how a hundred years ago,

1245
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,640
Speaker 1: like the Maryland stick of beer, right, like back in

1246
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: the day that was just a thing. People did shift

1247
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: animals all over the world and introduced species. Um, your

1248
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 1: favorite my favorite quote of yours, Pat is that deer

1249
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 1: make people stupid. Dude, Yeah, wolves make people crazy. But

1250
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: I've always in my years of reporting on the outdoors,

1251
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 1: I've always thought the two jobs of at least like

1252
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: would be a wolf be a wolf biologist, to be

1253
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: a dear biologist because everyone you know, everyone who doesn't

1254
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: doesn't agree with to you just just too much motion.

1255
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: You wrapped up on that stuff. The other night, we

1256
01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: had a conversation where UM, the US Fish and Wildlife

1257
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: Service just put out a jaguar recovery plan, which you

1258
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 1: know runs from Central America open into Arizona, and they

1259
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 1: had in identifying like habitat, usable habitat, or historic habitat,

1260
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: they put this cut off marker where when looking in

1261
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: the United States, UM, places that were that they know

1262
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: as like jaguar habitat, they put a caught off at

1263
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two. So it's like, from nineteen sixty two

1264
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: on will acknowledge where jaguars have been, but anything prior

1265
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 1: to that is dismissed. Okay, because it winds up being

1266
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: this very small sliver of Arizona for for suitable jaguar

1267
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 1: habitat in the US, And if you extended pre sixty two,

1268
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 1: it gets much bigger and you have jaguars up into

1269
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: central Arizona West Texas, New Mexico, and so they're kind

1270
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: of like proposing a very limited version, of very limited

1271
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 1: scope of what jaguar recovery might look like in the US,

1272
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 1: and now they're effectively extinct like now and then there's one,

1273
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: possibly two up in Arizona, but typically like at this

1274
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: particular second, maybe zero or in Arizona. Um. But it

1275
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: brought up this conversation about when we start to apply dates,

1276
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 1: like here's what nature should look like, it should look like,

1277
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,360
Speaker 1: and that's what we'll strive towards. You get into this

1278
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: funny space, especially with the Ile Royal thing, where here

1279
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: we are like really striving hard to create. Um, we're

1280
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: trying hard to like recreate the splendor of which is

1281
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 1: not that which doesn't resemble eight If we're chasing eighteen eighty,

1282
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: it sounds like we'd be trying to put links in

1283
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 1: caribou on Ile Royal, But we're chasing something that occurred

1284
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: in my lifetime. Archaeological records show that caribou and lynx

1285
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 1: were there for the last years, so that wolves moves

1286
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 1: to the last hundred years quite a bit different, is it?

1287
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: It's just because it's wolves, man, it feels something else

1288
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: you're the caribou getting no love. No we just want

1289
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: we just let the last We just let that last

1290
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: carry were heard in the United States, blink out, largely unnoticed.

1291
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,920
Speaker 1: No one cares. You can't get people to care about it.

1292
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:40,560
Speaker 1: The Purcell Mountains used to drift down into Idaho Panhandle.

1293
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: They're gone, people, but in the helicopter and wolves are

1294
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: damn plates. I I really liked this um comment that

1295
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: Tim herber Land made that you know, it will never

1296
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: be a headline in the New York Times that says

1297
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: let wolves die for science. You know, we just don't

1298
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: do that. You know, if we don't let wolves die

1299
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: for science, and I I think it would be fasten

1300
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: to see and track and research what really happens on

1301
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: an as overall, if you just leave the moose alone

1302
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: and see how they go open down. I mean, if

1303
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: the if the if the trees get over browsed, they

1304
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 1: get over browsed, and that they've done that before, they'll

1305
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 1: do it again. At some point they'll probably eat themselves

1306
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 1: a house, a home. Well, then the island will will

1307
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 1: self correct and they'll probably a new new era. But yeah,

1308
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: trying to I guess you make it make I think

1309
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 1: my favorite point is that why would we always want

1310
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: to make it look like what we have right now?

1311
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:48,960
Speaker 1: But that's what we do. Can't answer it. And and

1312
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 1: if you let the wolves die and be gone, maybe

1313
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: links will come back. There was one links documented that

1314
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: showed up there in uh ass the ice from Canada,

1315
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: but that's been the only time one links there was

1316
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: one sided out there. And so maybe if the wolves

1317
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:12,799
Speaker 1: are gone, we see links come back. And I should

1318
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: to be um to get the other other point of view. Though.

1319
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 1: One thing that is different now is that you know,

1320
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 1: they think the wolves they came out there originally work

1321
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: came from basically one source area, where now that they're

1322
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: bringing them from these different areas, and assuming they can

1323
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 1: form packs get along nat to work together, that there

1324
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: will be enough to diversity to sustain them for a while.

1325
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: And then like when I asked the biologists up there, well,

1326
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 1: but what if twenty years from now these guys start

1327
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 1: going down here and you try another transfusion basically where

1328
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: it's all going to end. And he said, well, you

1329
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 1: know that we'll just scutts step when we get to

1330
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:51,839
Speaker 1: that point. But but it's a to me, it's plausible

1331
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 1: that maybe with this these new different genes trains coming

1332
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 1: and they can sustain themselves longer out there. But yeah,

1333
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: I have to agree that for on the factor of wolves,

1334
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: we won't be doing this. But but even that isn't

1335
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: um like natural, like trying to create a diverse population,

1336
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: because I think I read somewhere that every wolf on

1337
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,639
Speaker 1: that island descended from one female that was out there

1338
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 1: and like came from old gray guy. And so by

1339
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:25,879
Speaker 1: creating this island population that has wolves from like Canada,

1340
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 1: Minnesota and the up that's not even what it was

1341
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 1: like during this era we're discussing trying to replicate now

1342
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: they want to make damns or they stick this time.

1343
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: Ka patas jump gears, change gears. You don't jump gears, uh,

1344
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: grind gears sometimes, dude, I'm looking to get the picture

1345
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 1: of the car getting hoisted out of that Oh my god,

1346
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 1: it's haunting. Man, that's wild. They'd be sweet refurbished that car.

1347
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 1: Pat we should point this out. And he wrote that

1348
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,599
Speaker 1: article on the Ile Royal Wolves back on April twelve.

1349
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: We published it. I told him at the time it's

1350
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 1: one of the best things we ever ran. So if

1351
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: you want more on this, go to the meat Eator

1352
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: dot com. Type in Ile Royal you'll find pass piece there.

1353
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: Give it a read. It's a great piece of writing,

1354
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 1: really informative and entertaining. Thank you you getting feedback people

1355
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: mad at you. No, No, I really didn't. Um. I

1356
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 1: heard from Ed Banks, you know, the wolf biologist, to

1357
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 1: the Rocky Mountain Wolf Free introduction. I try to get

1358
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 1: ahold of the story, to get his perspectives, I thought,

1359
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: And he's always a thoughtful guy, and but he was

1360
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: done fishing in coose to Rica or someplace and then

1361
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: get back to me till after the fact, and and

1362
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 1: his comment to me was he kind of agreed, however,

1363
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: aligned that let's let's see what happens. And he says,

1364
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: he said, now he said, I'd like, he said, now,

1365
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm in a point where I think the wolves may

1366
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:01,639
Speaker 1: surprises again if you're just left him alone. Yeah. And

1367
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 1: that's what made it, I guess that's what makes it

1368
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 1: kind of magical. Um, is that you had this island

1369
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,519
Speaker 1: with a bunch of moves, and these wolves found it. Yeah, right,

1370
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:13,919
Speaker 1: and they kind of ran there whatever their little courses.

1371
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 1: And now you're like, oh, yeah, they're out there because

1372
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,799
Speaker 1: we stuck them out there. It seems a little artificial

1373
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 1: for National Park. And if you'd ask the wolves that

1374
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: they wanted to be moved, I'm guessing they're gonna tell

1375
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 1: you they'll pass. Okay, you're you're you admire your your

1376
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: obituary hunting, obituary enthusiast. Oh yeah, yeah, Um, obituaries one

1377
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 1: of those things. I don't know one of this, Steve,

1378
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 1: But all my career as a writer was the newspaper

1379
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,759
Speaker 1: back in the eighties. If some important died in town,

1380
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 1: the newspaper coming to my desk and say, I'm pat,

1381
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:56,640
Speaker 1: could you do a feature? Do a feature obituary? And

1382
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: this guy I became this kind of this obituary writer

1383
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 1: of the uh for famous people. You know, how do

1384
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 1: you approach an obituary? Um? Why phone calls? You know?

1385
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 1: I start when my dad died, I had a guy

1386
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 1: called me from a newspaper and um interviewed me about

1387
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 1: my dad. Of course, then when when the thing came out,

1388
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't these days and newspapers you can't get in

1389
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: the depth that we used to be able to get

1390
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: into when I was writing newspapers back in the eighties.

1391
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 1: But I, UM, I like to think I'm an empathetic person,

1392
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 1: and I I'll read about I go into they call

1393
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:35,759
Speaker 1: them morgue, and I'd find them more in our newspaper.

1394
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: For these guys, read read as much as I could

1395
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 1: about them, try to get a good feel for them,

1396
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 1: and then call like a son or a daughter or

1397
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 1: or a wife. Might being just interviewing for for a

1398
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:48,639
Speaker 1: half hour an hour, but they're still a fresh dead

1399
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 1: and you're calling the relatives. But but if you do

1400
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 1: it sympathetically and especially condolences and that you know, tell

1401
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 1: them you want to you're working at a piece you

1402
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 1: wanted to just man a final final honor, woman, a

1403
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: final honor that um people are pretty pretty good at

1404
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,640
Speaker 1: talking to it. And you realize you're not. You're not

1405
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: calling there, you know, throw dirt on the guy before

1406
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,520
Speaker 1: he's you know why he's being lord in And yeah,

1407
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: so I I feel that kind of stuff fascinating. But

1408
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: when I when I was mutioning you is um it

1409
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 1: was this um guy over and I don't have in

1410
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:22,960
Speaker 1: front of me now, but it was a cool, cool

1411
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:26,679
Speaker 1: thing about a guy that died vice hunting out there

1412
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 1: and people so often I get this at Deer and

1413
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 1: during the magazine. A lot people would die and then

1414
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:38,799
Speaker 1: the sun would be talking to his dad on the deathbed.

1415
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 1: Is this what you're talking about, Steve? People come into

1416
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 1: the man's room and he's dyeing the hospital and asking him, Hey,

1417
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 1: next fall, when I'm out hunting, could you send a

1418
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: big buck pass me? Is that what you're talking about?

1419
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 1: Or are you talking about the Sweden guy with um

1420
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 1: that we had a heart attack out in the woods

1421
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,600
Speaker 1: and it was otherwise was the otherwise good hunt? This

1422
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 1: is what I like. All this what I'm thinking primarily

1423
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 1: about the the other people that described it as an

1424
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 1: otherwise success. Could you read that line because I don't

1425
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: have it from me, you don't have in front of you. Um,

1426
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: it was about jeez, you're right, Remember I said that

1427
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: you said if I died, you said it would be

1428
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 1: a heart attack. Yeah, okay. There was an article about

1429
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 1: a forty four year old hunter who died in the

1430
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: woods and it says on November eleventh last year, his

1431
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:37,360
Speaker 1: heart suddenly stopped during an otherwise successful hunt with his friends,

1432
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: and that it made me think about all these different

1433
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:49,439
Speaker 1: things that during my career that I've stumped onto of

1434
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 1: um because it's people on the death that wishes and

1435
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:54,679
Speaker 1: the other story that came up today. I was shared

1436
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 1: with you that I'm sorry um that I shared with

1437
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 1: you that I thought was just I great commentary and

1438
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 1: maybe thinking when we started talking earlier about you dropping

1439
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: them in the set here what we do well back

1440
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 1: in this I think it's probably in the nineteen forties nine. No, No,

1441
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 1: I had to be about nineteen sixties, because I'm not there.

1442
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 1: Writer in Wisconsin named Don Johnson he died. I'll pry

1443
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: about just you know, but ten fifteen years ago now.

1444
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: But Don was a great storyteller, great writer. If he

1445
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:28,639
Speaker 1: told the story of he was out covering opening week,

1446
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 1: opened day of duck season Wisconsin. Back it must have

1447
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 1: been in the sixties, and he went to this boat

1448
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: landing and he has duck hunters would coming from the

1449
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 1: day of hunting because they had a neon opener. I'm

1450
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:40,719
Speaker 1: not sure we have a neon open anymore in Wisconsin,

1451
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:43,880
Speaker 1: but back then as a neon opener. So late in

1452
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 1: the day, this this this duck boat comes in and

1453
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: he's starting to interview the guys, asking how the hunt went,

1454
01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:54,679
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and well, here's the a dead

1455
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 1: hunter lying in the bottom of the other boat with

1456
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 1: a bunch of ducks problem, and they're having this conversation about, well,

1457
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, what do we do now? Should we called it?

1458
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 1: We have to kill the sheriff department. We got called

1459
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 1: the more we supposed to doing. Don's you know, pretty

1460
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 1: baffled by all us. You know, it's a dead man

1461
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 1: in your boat, you know. And well apparently the guy

1462
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: died that morning while they're putting out decoy, setting up

1463
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 1: the blind and stuff, and they knew he's gone, so

1464
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: they just putting the bound the boat. And they had

1465
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,120
Speaker 1: a little discussion and they agreed that well I came

1466
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 1: to the guy's name, Well, Fred would have wanted to

1467
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: keep going, so we so we did. We kept hunting,

1468
01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: and when they got their limits or they got done hunting,

1469
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 1: they came in with this the whole time, like probably

1470
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 1: four or five hours, those guys lying dead in the

1471
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:45,600
Speaker 1: bottom the bound the duck boat. Now, I thought that

1472
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 1: was just a classic story that you know, what would

1473
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 1: you do of all these days we up, we would

1474
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 1: just feel you know, like obligated to, you know, probably

1475
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:55,760
Speaker 1: come in and do it, because you'd probably you know,

1476
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 1: looke dawn upon by everyone in your talent for a wee. Yeah,

1477
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 1: I think so could just be like how careless can

1478
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: you be? But then on the other side, I think

1479
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of cool. You know, if that

1480
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 1: happened me, I want to take I want to take offense,

1481
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: you immediately agree with it. You would feel like sort

1482
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 1: of guilty into immediately doing something about it. It wouldn't

1483
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,320
Speaker 1: be more like a legal issue. You know. If I

1484
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 1: was out hunting, If I was out dug hunting and

1485
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, someone that I'm hunting with dies,

1486
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 1: I would, uh, you know, I can't really say him

1487
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 1: in that situation, I feel like I would wrap her up.

1488
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 1: I feel like i'd wrap her up. I'd say, guys,

1489
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap her up and take our our dead

1490
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: friend here back into town and and notify his family

1491
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 1: and pulled it. Yeah, I'd go so far as to

1492
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 1: say that would be mine. I wouldn't even pull the

1493
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:53,200
Speaker 1: decoys because I would also be wondering, Uh, how did

1494
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 1: they know he wasn't I mean, did they administer CPR?

1495
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:58,400
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. I mean he must have

1496
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: been just stone. Like, let's say you let him off

1497
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:04,680
Speaker 1: and he's in his blind and you come back and

1498
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 1: he's just so dead that he's chili. But like, if

1499
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 1: if you were to fall over and seem pretty dead,

1500
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: how would I rule out that there wasn't a thing

1501
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 1: that could be done After I administered CPR on you,

1502
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't run back to see if perhaps they'd shock

1503
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 1: you back to life. So that's where it also gets tricky.

1504
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:29,800
Speaker 1: But if it was be that You're like, hey, I'm

1505
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: gonna go take a whiz or whatever, and then an

1506
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,479
Speaker 1: hour later I go on, there you are cold and stiff,

1507
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, there's no chance of resurrecting him.

1508
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 1: I would still wrap up that gut reaction. But then

1509
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 1: I think if like Pat or Spencer were like, but

1510
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,400
Speaker 1: you know you, Steve really like to hunt. It's the

1511
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: opener looking all the ducks flying. I think I could

1512
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 1: be pretty easily persuade. Let me put it in there.

1513
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 1: Let's say this. Let's say I was in the autumn

1514
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 1: of my life. I'm in the autumn of my life,

1515
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:07,760
Speaker 1: and we all know I've already had three open heart surgeries.

1516
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, Yanni, if I could just get out one

1517
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:15,679
Speaker 1: last time. You know that was a hypothetical. Steve hasn't

1518
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 1: had an open heart surgery, but yeah, like like like

1519
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 1: I'm an old, old, old old guy, and and everybody

1520
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 1: he can't believe I'm still alive. And I'm like, if

1521
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 1: you could just get me out in the marsh one

1522
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 1: more time, yeah, you know it could that calm my soul.

1523
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:33,320
Speaker 1: And and that's how I dream of passing. You probably

1524
01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 1: would have prefaced the hunt at breakfast being like, hey,

1525
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 1: and by the way, if I kill over, why you

1526
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 1: guys shot, just keep shooting? And I couldn't picture, you know,

1527
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 1: if I didn't say that, and I could picture there,

1528
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:47,200
Speaker 1: I sat and I'm like, oh, Yanni, just to be

1529
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 1: back out, like I don't ever want to go home

1530
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 1: and all sudden not going to the eternal slumber, right,

1531
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:58,599
Speaker 1: I could see how you guys white, you know, shoot

1532
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:03,600
Speaker 1: a few volleys, work a couple of flocks and in

1533
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 1: a largely symbolic sort of way before boating me back

1534
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 1: into town. I can see that. Well. No, here's another

1535
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: another factor. Would you consider um going taking Stee's advice

1536
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:20,439
Speaker 1: and getting off the lake, knowing that if you didn't,

1537
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 1: he has a wife back home that would just hate

1538
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: you the rest of the rest of her life. For

1539
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 1: not immediately pulling that body off off the lake. You're

1540
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 1: not probably gonna talk to her that much more anyway.

1541
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: It's like you know what I mean, like it depends

1542
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,080
Speaker 1: on how much you planned on hanging out with her

1543
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 1: after your body died. Good point. It seems like irrational

1544
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:41,519
Speaker 1: confidence from these duck hunters that were probably made up

1545
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:45,240
Speaker 1: of like a banker, a welder, and an insurance salesman

1546
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:47,720
Speaker 1: that was like, yeah, he's gone nothing. We can do

1547
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 1: what we do about now. I'm not pulling decoys. That

1548
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: wasn't how Don Johnson described him, but um, you know

1549
01:25:55,840 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 1: it's plausible. Okay. Uh. Another you had another final observation

1550
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:05,720
Speaker 1: about your time exploring obituaries is that you find that

1551
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:10,360
Speaker 1: people we'll hope when sending off of a loved one

1552
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 1: into into death, that they'll hope that the person does

1553
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 1: what in the afterlife big buck their way. I never

1554
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 1: heard that. I'll tell you if I mean he's he

1555
01:26:26,040 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 1: wrote about it. That was one of the well, you know,

1556
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: Steve's favorite quote of mine is you know, do you

1557
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: make people stupid? And that was one of the things

1558
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 1: that used to just amazed me how many times I

1559
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:45,120
Speaker 1: gotta got queries and manuscripts over the transom out of

1560
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,640
Speaker 1: the blue from people with that kind of storyline or

1561
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:50,920
Speaker 1: that you know, Dad's on the deathbed and you know

1562
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 1: Junior is in there knowing this, this is it and

1563
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 1: and hey Dad, you know if you had a chance,

1564
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:01,600
Speaker 1: send a big buck man waiting this fall. And like

1565
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,560
Speaker 1: I always think, yeah, that was my last chance to

1566
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,640
Speaker 1: know to ask for a favor that once he's on

1567
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:10,519
Speaker 1: the inside like that, that's fine. I think it might

1568
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,800
Speaker 1: be a little bit more ingest than no. No, the

1569
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,400
Speaker 1: stories I got you, honest, the stories ever written a

1570
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 1: sent to me that that I never published. These were, um,

1571
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 1: those guys, heartfelt sentiments. They were pitching you this while

1572
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 1: you read. Yeah, and and and some stories you can

1573
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: get from deer hunters along those kinds of themes really

1574
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,799
Speaker 1: are touching there. Some of them were really well written.

1575
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 1: And maybe something can pull that one off and make it.

1576
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 1: I've well written requests, but the guys I heard from

1577
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,639
Speaker 1: I never I just never quickly could quite buy it. Yeah,

1578
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 1: but you know you can't be like, uh, you know,

1579
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 1: have him send world peace my way. Rights. You can't

1580
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 1: have to be like a huge thing. And you remember

1581
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 1: the hunting times together it's not gonna cost you know,

1582
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 1: it's not a not a humongous miracle. It's like in

1583
01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 1: the scheme of miracles, it's pretty mild to be like,

1584
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to over ask here. I

1585
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 1: don't want to be like a prima donna. You know,

1586
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm not like asking for wealth, great wealth and and

1587
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 1: and fame. Just if you could, you know, just a

1588
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:20,880
Speaker 1: nice buck, like a nice buck, I mean, how bad,

1589
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Like you know, how bad could that be? You only

1590
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:27,640
Speaker 1: got these querries if dad followed through and sent him

1591
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: a big buck, right like, it was never that son

1592
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 1: of a bit like, no big book. I don't think

1593
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,160
Speaker 1: we were. You know, I don't recall that anyone who

1594
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 1: actually had had the big ultimate buck come by. You know,

1595
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 1: these are typically just wishes and stuff. I think I

1596
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 1: don't recall it ever being um I got I don't.

1597
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't call anyone ever attributing a big buck that

1598
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: got to that to the deathbed wish. That's helpful. I

1599
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 1: thought you were getting like a follow up. No, No,

1600
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:55,600
Speaker 1: these are just I think that there's trying to be

1601
01:28:55,640 --> 01:28:57,800
Speaker 1: a sentimental story, and I thought it's the kind of

1602
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 1: story that say, if Steve Ronella were to write the castory,

1603
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: I think I'd probably buy the story because I thought

1604
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:06,240
Speaker 1: i'd probably pretty well written. But typically the stories I got,

1605
01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 1: you know, they weren't they weren't that, they weren't convincing,

1606
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:11,640
Speaker 1: so I never never on bought any of them. I

1607
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 1: was listening to a Elk calling instructional tape. I just switched.

1608
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 1: So now when I drive around, I have an out

1609
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:21,560
Speaker 1: call my mouth, the turkey call my mouth, um, And

1610
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:25,760
Speaker 1: there's a peculiar passage man that I'm getting into it

1611
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 1: this early. Yeah, turkey SE's not even over. Yeah, but

1612
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm moving on in my mind, man, moving out of

1613
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 1: my mind. That's what I got. Are you frustrated by

1614
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 1: the Turkey's calling? Not at all. No. I just was like,

1615
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,640
Speaker 1: it's may man. I mean, yeah, you know, before we

1616
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:45,320
Speaker 1: know it. Yeah, it's like before we know it. Um.

1617
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 1: In this instructional thing I'm listening to, there's a there's

1618
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:52,519
Speaker 1: a there's a thing that the man. There's an audio

1619
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:57,960
Speaker 1: recording of a of an actual hunt. And you hear

1620
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 1: a guy kills a bull oh with the bow, and

1621
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 1: you hear him talk about how and he names the

1622
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:11,760
Speaker 1: bow the bow manufacturer names the bow manufacturer by name

1623
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,240
Speaker 1: and talks about the lightning speed with which the bull died,

1624
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 1: and he says, I couldn't have asked the Lord to

1625
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,720
Speaker 1: help me kill it any quicker, which I thought was like,

1626
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 1: a uh, just a strange observation that you would like

1627
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:34,600
Speaker 1: that that would be a ask, Yeah, that you know,

1628
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,479
Speaker 1: like I couldn't even if I had, like if I

1629
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 1: had asked the Lord to kill it faster, he couldn't

1630
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 1: have helped me. Like this bow killed it so effectively.

1631
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 1: The even divine intervention couldn't have added anything to this

1632
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 1: bow's power. I don't know if that's how he meant

1633
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 1: that to come across, but just struck me as a's like, yeah,

1634
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 1: I just remember it's like it's it's like I appreciated

1635
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:03,680
Speaker 1: the acknowledgement. But then the more I thought about, Mike,

1636
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 1: that is a weird commentary on your perception of the

1637
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:13,960
Speaker 1: Lord's power, that like this bow is very swift killer.

1638
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,760
Speaker 1: That person did not think that far, didn't think of

1639
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:19,280
Speaker 1: that far through. But I think that's one of the

1640
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 1: fun things of writing, and that the thing is um

1641
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,679
Speaker 1: when people racing like that, when you realize kemmy red

1642
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 1: in a way that might not make you look like

1643
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:32,720
Speaker 1: you want to be viewed, and so yeah, but I

1644
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 1: think that makes it in the print. No patters, Well,

1645
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,560
Speaker 1: nice thing we wanted to talk about. If you're into it,

1646
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 1: into it? Um the wrath of bird watchers, yeah, um

1647
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 1: as an audience when you write about wildlife. One of

1648
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 1: the fun things of writing an outdoor column all these years,

1649
01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, you start figuring out there's certain different groups

1650
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 1: of people that they're reading you. And I learned a

1651
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:06,200
Speaker 1: long time ago that birdwatchers ain't me right about a

1652
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 1: cool thing about birds you've observed they appreciate it because

1653
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 1: I think they don't. They probably see a whole lot

1654
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:15,320
Speaker 1: of things written about different birds. So one thing I've

1655
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 1: always liked doing over the years is just writing basically

1656
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 1: backyard observations about birds I see, and then getting into

1657
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:26,040
Speaker 1: how wood peckers are hammer away all day and not

1658
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: how their brains get rattled, and look into this kind

1659
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 1: of stuff. And so anytime I write about birds, always

1660
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 1: get really nice feedback from bird watcher. You'll throw a

1661
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,720
Speaker 1: little nod of the bird world. Definitely, yea. Probably every

1662
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 1: couple of months typically I'll write something about birds that's

1663
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:42,400
Speaker 1: good as an outdoor columns because another observation. I like

1664
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: you your quote about how dear maybe people stupid, but

1665
01:32:44,479 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 1: you had another observation about being a naturalist, being a

1666
01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: hunter and being a naturalist, and you were observing how

1667
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 1: in this day and age you can have great hunters

1668
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:01,560
Speaker 1: who are horrible naturally well, definitely, and you're saying that

1669
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:04,759
Speaker 1: some of the best deer hunters, you know, I couldn't

1670
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 1: tell you what kind of tree their deer stand is

1671
01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:11,080
Speaker 1: hanging in. Definitely, I can. I can name names, but

1672
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,920
Speaker 1: I can't do that, you know. Um, So it's admitted,

1673
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 1: So so mitigate that or to counteract that, you'll now

1674
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 1: and then write up you'll write a piece about birds.

1675
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 1: That's the only reason I read about it. I don't

1676
01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:25,120
Speaker 1: want to be like one of those guys, because like

1677
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,040
Speaker 1: you got your game and you got your tweetie birds

1678
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 1: Steven Ella, see's right through the bullshit. No, actually, um,

1679
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 1: Growing up, I had a grandmother who lived with us,

1680
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,560
Speaker 1: who was in the birds, and so I learned I

1681
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 1: could identify a lot of birds, feel like a young age.

1682
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 1: But then I kind of peeked out and so anyway

1683
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 1: I learned over the over the years. Writing my column

1684
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 1: that ain't me right, about birds and the natural stuff

1685
01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 1: about birds. The bird watchers adore you. I get these nice,

1686
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:58,880
Speaker 1: nice emails and letters from different women that older women

1687
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 1: typically and other birdwatchers love me. But then along the way,

1688
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:06,800
Speaker 1: because I'm a hunter, a number of times I've written

1689
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:11,560
Speaker 1: about um three things that I learned piss off birdwatchers,

1690
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 1: really piss them off on the first one is to

1691
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: suggest something like, why don't you guys paying your way

1692
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:20,800
Speaker 1: on conservation on the conservation front? Why don't you Why

1693
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 1: don't you tell those back their companies that they should

1694
01:34:23,280 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: be getting a front exercise tax and other braoculars that

1695
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:28,559
Speaker 1: they sell for bird watching, why don't you put an

1696
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: exercise tax on bird feed these kind of things like

1697
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 1: the hunters have done and the gun owners have done

1698
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,720
Speaker 1: to try to build into the conservation fund. Why they

1699
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:40,040
Speaker 1: don't like that. They really come after you and what

1700
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 1: is there? What is there? What? Why do they find that? So?

1701
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 1: Because they aren't Typically what they'll say is they they

1702
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:48,080
Speaker 1: don't think they're harming anything out there, so why should

1703
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:51,000
Speaker 1: they be paying extra for it? They're not consumptive, they

1704
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,320
Speaker 1: don't they don't use that term, but they look at

1705
01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: themselves as being we're just um observers of nature, and

1706
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: you guys are takers of nature, so you should be

1707
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 1: paying something for it. Didn't think that's been Yeah, I'm

1708
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 1: sure there's other gut things that just bug him about

1709
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:10,080
Speaker 1: the idea of a lot of twos. I don't want

1710
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:13,360
Speaker 1: paymark anymore any more. Like, yeah, I could, I could,

1711
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 1: I could, I could counter that argument, but that's a

1712
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:17,760
Speaker 1: that's a fair argument to throw out there. So so

1713
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: that's what. So that's one thing that pisces off bird watchers.

1714
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:24,720
Speaker 1: The earth that pisces off birdwatchers is is um Wisconsin.

1715
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 1: Until the year two thousand, their boats to not have

1716
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:31,479
Speaker 1: a hunting season on morning doves. And so we had

1717
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: a big fight, and eventually we um we passed a

1718
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:37,840
Speaker 1: morning dove season. And because I'm a hunter, and I

1719
01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:42,400
Speaker 1: wrote about why I thought was very biologically easy to

1720
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,720
Speaker 1: have a bird season hunting season on morning doves. Why

1721
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 1: not you know we hunt? Wait, the thing I always

1722
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: would point out is that name one thing we hunt

1723
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 1: that's isn't pretty? Because I say, well, had it's such

1724
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:58,080
Speaker 1: a pretty bird that hasn't it's a beautiful call. I think, well,

1725
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 1: what do we hunt that um isn't pretty? And how

1726
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:02,599
Speaker 1: you saying that if you want to kill ugly things,

1727
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of elitist, you know, just killed the ugly stuff.

1728
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:08,840
Speaker 1: That sounds pretty rotten. And so I never never bought

1729
01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:11,800
Speaker 1: that argument. So anyway, they didn't like me for that,

1730
01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: and I get a hate mail about that. And the

1731
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:17,720
Speaker 1: one that's still going to this day in Wisconsin and

1732
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 1: parts of the country is, um, you know, any to

1733
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: me talking about having a hunting season on Sandhill crane

1734
01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:26,639
Speaker 1: vicious stuff that comes in, you know, just the kind

1735
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 1: of stuff that Um, I thought, Man, I thought these

1736
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 1: people love me, and and now they're calling me names

1737
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:37,519
Speaker 1: and and just um just beating the crap out of

1738
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 1: me and I but the thing is, as as a

1739
01:36:40,880 --> 01:36:43,559
Speaker 1: outdoor columnists, I'm kind of used to people taking shots

1740
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 1: at me, So it wasn't that big a deal. But that'sought.

1741
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: It was really interesting how the same people who will

1742
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 1: love me forgretting about birds will turn so quickly and

1743
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:57,200
Speaker 1: just really come after me. And yeah, I'd say, just

1744
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:01,040
Speaker 1: as viciously as as the most harappy deer hunter. You

1745
01:37:01,080 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 1: know what I came to real venom. I think on

1746
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:06,960
Speaker 1: the morning dove and say, because on the morning, dont

1747
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:09,120
Speaker 1: sand Hill crane issue why you get a lot of resistance.

1748
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 1: It tends to be very difficult for people to accept

1749
01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:19,759
Speaker 1: um the onset of hunting for something that you weren't

1750
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:23,840
Speaker 1: hunting previously, no matter how short the window that you

1751
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:27,000
Speaker 1: weren't hunting it. So sand hill cranes are once abundant.

1752
01:37:27,360 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 1: Hunting was ridespread. Due to unregulated hunting and other habitat issues,

1753
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:34,960
Speaker 1: we had like a great diminishment in sand O cranz

1754
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:38,520
Speaker 1: and now we're coming along and recovering them pretty effectively.

1755
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: But it was that period when you couldn't That just

1756
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:44,040
Speaker 1: gets fixed in people's minds. So when you point there's

1757
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:46,800
Speaker 1: a perceived scarcity. So when you point out that, like

1758
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, now we have as many and we're going

1759
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:52,200
Speaker 1: to add it to the list of dozens of things,

1760
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 1: dozens of species of game animals and fur bears that

1761
01:37:57,479 --> 01:37:58,880
Speaker 1: you're allowed to hunt. We're gonna add it to this

1762
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:02,120
Speaker 1: big giant list you probably couldn't even make. It's so

1763
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 1: many of the unbable list them all we're gonna add

1764
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 1: to that big list. People get real upset, Like morning

1765
01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:10,120
Speaker 1: doves in my home state, these too don't have a

1766
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 1: morning dove season because it's like it's like it's just

1767
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:14,679
Speaker 1: this thing where you know you don't And even states

1768
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 1: where that they take up, there's like a gap in hunting.

1769
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:22,200
Speaker 1: You might hunt black bears for a long time, numbers

1770
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: get down, they end the hunting season, numbers come back up,

1771
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:28,880
Speaker 1: they go to reinstate. It's very difficult to overcome that

1772
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: um more soul than people that wanted to take things

1773
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: that can presently be hunted and make them not able

1774
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:36,040
Speaker 1: to hunt. It's just hard to get things up and

1775
01:38:36,120 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 1: running and hunting you really. People talk about it with

1776
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 1: the elk reintroductions in the East, it's it's a thing

1777
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 1: that that that they want to make very clear, even

1778
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: in the onset of the reintroductions is that we're going

1779
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:50,479
Speaker 1: to do this and when numbers get high, we're gonna

1780
01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:53,840
Speaker 1: hunt because they've had resistance. Were also there's this new

1781
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 1: animal on the landscape put there with the intention of

1782
01:38:56,960 --> 01:38:59,680
Speaker 1: that it would be hunted, and then later people are like, oh, man,

1783
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 1: what right. They weren't involved in the reintroduction, They didn't

1784
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,599
Speaker 1: spend any money on it, but now that it happened,

1785
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 1: they're kind of like what it's like, No, no, we

1786
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,839
Speaker 1: spent the money to put them there. With the intention

1787
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:15,479
Speaker 1: that we would hunt the elk that we put there. Well,

1788
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to our situation with Sandy

1789
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:20,680
Speaker 1: Hill Crane's, I'm I'm never expecting it to pass in

1790
01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:23,160
Speaker 1: my lifetime, but I think when I can have a

1791
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:26,880
Speaker 1: good conversation with some bird watchers who opposed the hunt,

1792
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 1: I asked him, well, really, have you seen anything different

1793
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:33,720
Speaker 1: in the morning dove situation in the last twenty years

1794
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 1: since we started hunting morning doves? Even have you an't

1795
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:39,559
Speaker 1: seen anybody hunting morning doves? Because typically, you know, hunting

1796
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,559
Speaker 1: is not a weren't for Blaze Orange, most people wouldn't

1797
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:44,760
Speaker 1: even know that, um, there's a hunter out there during

1798
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 1: the deer season because it's just you know, I mean, yeah,

1799
01:39:47,439 --> 01:39:49,559
Speaker 1: our guns make a lot of noise, but how many

1800
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:52,800
Speaker 1: people are like notice? And so I'll just that's my

1801
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: point to them is that you know, if you had

1802
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,719
Speaker 1: a Sandy Hill Crane season, you wouldn't't notice. It would

1803
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:00,920
Speaker 1: just be would be so well regulated, not gonna endanger

1804
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 1: the species, could just be Yes, people like me could

1805
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 1: go out and enjoy a good meal from our Samuel Crane,

1806
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:10,960
Speaker 1: enjoy a new kind of hunting experience, and you know,

1807
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,599
Speaker 1: so what's the harm. Yeah, most people do not Most

1808
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: people are not realized that the morning dove is the

1809
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:20,599
Speaker 1: most harvested game bird, most harvested in anything in this country.

1810
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 1: I think that American hunters kill around ten million mourning

1811
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:31,560
Speaker 1: doves a year. But here's the thing. The numbers. I

1812
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 1: don't want to say that the numbers are artificially inflated,

1813
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:36,479
Speaker 1: but we have a lot of mourning does because of

1814
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:41,719
Speaker 1: human activities, like our agriculture, like our agricultural crop systems

1815
01:40:43,080 --> 01:40:45,639
Speaker 1: have I mean that we have far more mourning doves

1816
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:48,439
Speaker 1: than we would have in the absence of people. It's

1817
01:40:48,479 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 1: one of those species that really wins, It really wins

1818
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:55,600
Speaker 1: around human manipulations on the landscape. So we create a

1819
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:57,960
Speaker 1: giant is that recently on some of the haunts we've

1820
01:40:58,040 --> 01:41:01,880
Speaker 1: been on where who were are we maybe in Texas recently?

1821
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:06,720
Speaker 1: And what else? Have we hunted turkeys recently Montana? Where

1822
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 1: you just see like a pair here, pair there, you know,

1823
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:13,240
Speaker 1: and there's sort of just like part of everything else.

1824
01:41:13,320 --> 01:41:15,760
Speaker 1: But if you go to like a place that was

1825
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: like known for it and where the birds are really

1826
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: working the sunflower crops, you know, you're talking about thousands

1827
01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:25,719
Speaker 1: you know that. Really that really makes that example true.

1828
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:28,719
Speaker 1: When we were kids, we would hunt them. You weren't

1829
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:31,320
Speaker 1: allowed to hunt them, but we'd hunt them on power

1830
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,240
Speaker 1: lines because you could look down the power line and

1831
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 1: see morning doves way down. You'd kind of mark how

1832
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 1: many posts you had to go. This was the pelicons.

1833
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:42,800
Speaker 1: You'd mark how many posts you had to go. Then

1834
01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: you'd go in the woods and parallel the power lines,

1835
01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:49,719
Speaker 1: counting down the posts, and then you belly crawl into

1836
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:53,479
Speaker 1: the edge of the cut, hoping to get within pellet

1837
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:57,560
Speaker 1: rifle range of a dove on the wire. Did you

1838
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:00,560
Speaker 1: get me in that way? No? No, But then my

1839
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: brother in law had a real souped up pellet rifle

1840
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:06,000
Speaker 1: that was very hard. It was a tent pump and

1841
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:07,639
Speaker 1: by the time you got to the tenth pump, dude,

1842
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:11,400
Speaker 1: it was hard to pump. And that offered like enough

1843
01:42:11,479 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 1: a little bit of range over our plastic stocked once

1844
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:17,120
Speaker 1: and so that was a little bit helpful. But no,

1845
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: it's not a very effective way to morning doves. Um.

1846
01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:23,120
Speaker 1: But we were raised to believe that it was a

1847
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:27,200
Speaker 1: great injustice that Michigan had no morning dove season, and

1848
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:31,560
Speaker 1: so it was almost an act of civil disobedience. My

1849
01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 1: father viewed it as like like you know, yeah, civil disobedience. Uh,

1850
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:40,840
Speaker 1: that that you would that you would pursue some doves.

1851
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: My my dad had a real problem with the American robin.

1852
01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:48,599
Speaker 1: You know, it's our states, our state burd in Wisconsin.

1853
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: But Dad always hated the robin because it was pretty

1854
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 1: strawberry patches more than any of our bird, because it's

1855
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,240
Speaker 1: such a big fruit eater. And he and he don't,

1856
01:42:57,280 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't recall you remember shooting because he

1857
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:01,760
Speaker 1: shot a lot of birds off for strawberry patches. But

1858
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 1: I'll let me call himber shooting a robin. But he

1859
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 1: did not like them. Oh it was man, we would

1860
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:08,600
Speaker 1: have gotten killed if we touched a robber. But my

1861
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:14,759
Speaker 1: father had a lot of h wrath for blue jays,

1862
01:43:15,160 --> 01:43:19,960
Speaker 1: which he identified as being robbin killers. So in honor

1863
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,599
Speaker 1: of the our state bird as well was the robin,

1864
01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:26,000
Speaker 1: and in defense of the robin, which he liked a lot,

1865
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 1: it was in his mind there was a perpetual war

1866
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 1: against blue jays, which for robin killers. And he felt

1867
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 1: that the ruthlessness, ruthlessness with which a blue jay would

1868
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:41,240
Speaker 1: go in and eat baby robins, that the eggs, but

1869
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:45,280
Speaker 1: killing eat the baby. Robbins that um no punishment was

1870
01:43:45,320 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 1: too great for a blue jay, and he would devote

1871
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:52,120
Speaker 1: a lot of his winner to um ridding our yard

1872
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: blue jays and they would melt out of the snow

1873
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 1: in the springs. I know, I just like I don't

1874
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:00,400
Speaker 1: let my kid. I don't let my kid get any

1875
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:03,720
Speaker 1: kind of stuff like that. Yeah. I think there's a

1876
01:44:03,800 --> 01:44:07,960
Speaker 1: famous um Autobu painting of a blue jay rating a nest.

1877
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 1: It almost looks like one of those um dark War

1878
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 1: scenes were there's the evil person killing the babies, you know,

1879
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,000
Speaker 1: and that kind of what's the imagery? No? Oh, yeah,

1880
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 1: you get you. You know, everybody gets excited. You watch

1881
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:24,040
Speaker 1: a robin setting up shop and it's like the eggs

1882
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:26,679
Speaker 1: and then one day there's one and they're ripping him apart.

1883
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:30,080
Speaker 1: But you know where I realized a few years ago

1884
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:32,360
Speaker 1: where I was not meant to be a wildlife photographer

1885
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 1: was there's a low hanging orioles nest with my driveway

1886
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:39,519
Speaker 1: and I went out there with my nice camera one

1887
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:42,439
Speaker 1: day to get a picture of the bird's nest because

1888
01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:46,160
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful orioles nest hanging down only about fifteen

1889
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:51,519
Speaker 1: ft up. Well, I'm focusing on the basket to that

1890
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:55,120
Speaker 1: Oriels nest. I also blue jay hop onto the branch

1891
01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:58,920
Speaker 1: about ten feet away, and I'm kind of thinking, what's

1892
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:01,559
Speaker 1: this blue jay doing up on on that by that nest?

1893
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 1: Just stupid not thinking it through the blue jake hop stone,

1894
01:45:07,040 --> 01:45:09,839
Speaker 1: and I like, my camera is up, my cameras focused.

1895
01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:13,160
Speaker 1: Blue Jay reaches into the nest, pulls out an egg,

1896
01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:17,600
Speaker 1: and I, instead of snapping the picture like a photographer

1897
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 1: would do, I lower the cameras, like to look at

1898
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 1: and awe and what the hell did it just do?

1899
01:45:24,760 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 1: And then when I finally realized that going on, it

1900
01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:29,759
Speaker 1: was too late. It was gone to have a picture

1901
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:33,080
Speaker 1: of this blue jail, you know, focus off on the

1902
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:36,240
Speaker 1: side as he's hopping out, and then when he actually

1903
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:38,880
Speaker 1: grabs the thing, and my fingers should be pressing the button,

1904
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 1: I'm too busy looking at him to trying to figure

1905
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:43,439
Speaker 1: out what he's up to. Remember the old days, people

1906
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:47,040
Speaker 1: would have, you know, like roadside attractions where you had animals.

1907
01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 1: It's kind of more common than like we were going

1908
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:52,040
Speaker 1: to a place where guy had just a couple of

1909
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:55,679
Speaker 1: bears for some reason. Definitely, definitely he had a couple

1910
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:57,600
Speaker 1: of bears in a fence, and when you're on a

1911
01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:00,240
Speaker 1: road trip driving around, you'd like you'd have a I'm like,

1912
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 1: come see the bears. I remember being at one of

1913
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: those places, and I remember there's because he my dad

1914
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: had pictures of it. He liked it so much that

1915
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 1: there's a big like don't feed the bears sign. But

1916
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 1: he reached in and gave a bear a tipsy roll,

1917
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:16,400
Speaker 1: and the bear got the tittsie roll stuck on its teeth,

1918
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:19,360
Speaker 1: And my dad took a bunch of pictures of this

1919
01:46:19,520 --> 01:46:23,639
Speaker 1: bear trying to dislodge a Tutsi roll on the fence.

1920
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:27,800
Speaker 1: They just tickled him endlessly. But like his what he

1921
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:30,360
Speaker 1: saw when he looked at animals is just different than

1922
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:33,080
Speaker 1: what I see when I look at animals in some way. Yeah,

1923
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:36,479
Speaker 1: you know, like I just don't feel that impulse when

1924
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:38,200
Speaker 1: I see its like don't feed the bears. I'm the

1925
01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:39,559
Speaker 1: kind of guys like, oh, you know, if it must

1926
01:46:39,560 --> 01:46:42,640
Speaker 1: be a good reason. But he'd be like, well why not.

1927
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,160
Speaker 1: Maybe if I feed it, I'll find out why you're

1928
01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 1: not supposed to. I told you before, but I've told

1929
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:55,400
Speaker 1: you and I've told me Anny Newburgh how much. You

1930
01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:58,080
Speaker 1: like when you talk about your father's and the stories

1931
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:00,720
Speaker 1: of your you know, the observation and they would make

1932
01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:02,920
Speaker 1: and the things you would hear as a kid, because

1933
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 1: I think I have those with my dad where I think,

1934
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 1: what the hell is he thinking? You know? But but

1935
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:09,600
Speaker 1: but it's it's fun stuff because it's different eras and

1936
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:12,080
Speaker 1: your different ways of looking at life, at life. You know,

1937
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:16,160
Speaker 1: I enjoy that story. Oh man, I sit around Onener

1938
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:18,040
Speaker 1: all the time. I'll say something my kids now and then,

1939
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 1: or we'll do something now and then I'm like, someday

1940
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:26,840
Speaker 1: you'll say, you know, it's so weird one time my dad, Right,

1941
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:32,640
Speaker 1: they'll tell those they already have some well definitely just

1942
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:36,000
Speaker 1: say my my my son's in law already have Pat

1943
01:47:36,080 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 1: Durkin stories things that they I have a little sign

1944
01:47:40,360 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 1: at that end of my driveway. It says, um um,

1945
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:46,800
Speaker 1: deer Hunter's pointed some kind of sign that we picked

1946
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:50,240
Speaker 1: up somewhere and then needs it just the Durkins, you know.

1947
01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:54,880
Speaker 1: And and so my my son in law Matthew, refers

1948
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:58,400
Speaker 1: to deer Hunter's point as d HP. And every time

1949
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:01,679
Speaker 1: something comes up for his little um you a disagreement

1950
01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:04,719
Speaker 1: in the family, he'll he'll kind of look at Miller's

1951
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:07,519
Speaker 1: sons in law like James and say, that's not how

1952
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:12,439
Speaker 1: we do things here at d HP. I'm the patriarch

1953
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 1: of the family now, you know, with thirty two stuff

1954
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 1: dear in your house? Yeah, I and an elk in

1955
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:22,839
Speaker 1: a couple of prong horns. So pat you mentioned earlier

1956
01:48:23,160 --> 01:48:28,000
Speaker 1: like how you get feedback from burgers or fishermen or hunters.

1957
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 1: I would fall out of my chair if someone sent

1958
01:48:31,160 --> 01:48:33,800
Speaker 1: me like a handwritten letter on something that I wrote

1959
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:36,680
Speaker 1: for the meat eater or wherever. I imagine that's not

1960
01:48:36,760 --> 01:48:38,200
Speaker 1: the case with you, though, Like do you get a

1961
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:43,920
Speaker 1: lot of handwritten letters? I still do. Um, there are

1962
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:47,360
Speaker 1: really old people, you know they're eighties. Like how frequently

1963
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 1: you know when my newspaper column wasn't was that's mass

1964
01:48:52,320 --> 01:49:00,200
Speaker 1: circulation I'd getting pretty pretty regularly. Yeah, And and I

1965
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: never knew what to I never knew what to expect

1966
01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:04,160
Speaker 1: from that. I had an envelope come in with that

1967
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,800
Speaker 1: with that, Um, you know when they're getting really old

1968
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:10,280
Speaker 1: and that their hands aren't shaking or shaking now, and

1969
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 1: you never knew what being what's going to be inside?

1970
01:49:12,960 --> 01:49:16,599
Speaker 1: But um, the thing I can say that's true now,

1971
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:18,479
Speaker 1: is that it was true back and I started writing,

1972
01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:20,479
Speaker 1: you know, forty years ago, thirty five years ago. Is

1973
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:23,400
Speaker 1: that you get more good feedback than bad. You know,

1974
01:49:23,439 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: you get you get some overall or through handwritten notes.

1975
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:29,600
Speaker 1: I've never gotten a negative handwritten note. I've gotten some

1976
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 1: really nasty handwritten ones. I think some of my nasties

1977
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,680
Speaker 1: for back the nineties. So you know, that's one thing.

1978
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:38,080
Speaker 1: One thing I've noticed I'm watching my writing workshop. But

1979
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:40,439
Speaker 1: one thing I've noticed in my in my writing careers,

1980
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 1: as I've gotten older, I've gotten less of the vehement,

1981
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:48,360
Speaker 1: hateful stuff except from burders. The burders just going they

1982
01:49:48,360 --> 01:49:52,880
Speaker 1: don't care how old you are. The deer hunting no restraint. Yeah,

1983
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:54,559
Speaker 1: the deer hunters are a Wisconsin. I think the ones

1984
01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:56,759
Speaker 1: who've read my stuff kind of know where I stand

1985
01:49:56,800 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: and stuff, And I think I think I've kind of

1986
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:00,880
Speaker 1: stood the test of time where store writing after all

1987
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:03,000
Speaker 1: these years. So I think they might just kind of say, well,

1988
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 1: he's I don't agree with him, but I read them.

1989
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:08,559
Speaker 1: And but you can you can find threads a lot

1990
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 1: of those, especially like bull hunting sites, they are just

1991
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:16,160
Speaker 1: basically bashing me. I'm various issues in Wisconsin forms you know,

1992
01:50:16,240 --> 01:50:19,320
Speaker 1: and I used to have. I would say I thought

1993
01:50:19,360 --> 01:50:21,200
Speaker 1: you were my friend. People send me links to that

1994
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:24,200
Speaker 1: stuff as if I want to read it. People bashing

1995
01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:26,519
Speaker 1: on me are friends to do that? Yeah, they'll send

1996
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:30,160
Speaker 1: me nice screenshots of people like ship talking. I was like, thanks, bro, Yeah,

1997
01:50:31,400 --> 01:50:36,160
Speaker 1: it's good to know. Made my day. I think I'll

1998
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,639
Speaker 1: sleep better to night. Yeah, I'll sleep better at nights.

1999
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:41,360
Speaker 1: Other my my wife won't. My wife won't read, won't

2000
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:44,240
Speaker 1: open my um. She like, she won't open your mail

2001
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:48,240
Speaker 1: because someone's gonna put some that could be too yea.

2002
01:50:48,280 --> 01:50:51,280
Speaker 1: If she sees a letter come in without a return

2003
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:53,600
Speaker 1: address label, she'll never open it because those are the

2004
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:55,400
Speaker 1: ones that usually are the worst. There's gonna be a

2005
01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:58,479
Speaker 1: level of passion involved to like sit down and write

2006
01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 1: you a letter about something you wrote, but it's it's um,

2007
01:51:04,920 --> 01:51:07,240
Speaker 1: it's I can't predict when I really can't. I have

2008
01:51:07,280 --> 01:51:09,240
Speaker 1: a big envelope where I used to put because you

2009
01:51:09,320 --> 01:51:10,880
Speaker 1: used to get a lot more of it, and I

2010
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 1: had a big envelope where would stick letters into it.

2011
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: But that's kind of slowing down down because now you're

2012
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,160
Speaker 1: just like there's so many ways just really quickly tell

2013
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:22,400
Speaker 1: someone how much you don't like them. Yeah, people like

2014
01:51:22,760 --> 01:51:25,000
Speaker 1: people are excited to tell you that they don't like you.

2015
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:28,120
Speaker 1: They don't want to wait. They don't want to imagine

2016
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 1: you being sad days from now, when they can make

2017
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 1: you sad right now. Like dude, I'm I want like

2018
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:38,640
Speaker 1: lightning vengeance. Man, I'm not even be mad in a

2019
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:40,960
Speaker 1: week when he gets the letter. But I can just

2020
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,120
Speaker 1: feel now that I can lash out well. And that's

2021
01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:46,479
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I think. It's always intriguing about

2022
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:49,000
Speaker 1: that is that, Yeah, you know, most people when they

2023
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:53,439
Speaker 1: get they really ticked off about something, they'll write it down. Then,

2024
01:51:53,479 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 1: at least for me, when I started getting that way,

2025
01:51:56,720 --> 01:51:58,840
Speaker 1: by the time I got got got down where I'm

2026
01:51:59,200 --> 01:52:02,280
Speaker 1: gonna be sending it, I go back and I delete everything.

2027
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:04,600
Speaker 1: I think, why would I why would I want to

2028
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,719
Speaker 1: just keep this thing going? You know? And and plus

2029
01:52:08,240 --> 01:52:12,400
Speaker 1: there's there's a guiding thought, and I really at times

2030
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:15,080
Speaker 1: drive it into myself. I don't forget it is that

2031
01:52:16,080 --> 01:52:21,240
Speaker 1: this I quoted all the time with Samuel Johnson, great philosopher,

2032
01:52:21,320 --> 01:52:24,759
Speaker 1: writer wrote no man but a blockhead ever wrote except

2033
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:27,360
Speaker 1: for money. So when you take time out of your

2034
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 1: schedule when you're a freelance writer to write someone some

2035
01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:35,200
Speaker 1: stupid response this long that's something that he sent you.

2036
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:38,759
Speaker 1: You're killing yourself. You're taking money on your your pocket.

2037
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:41,400
Speaker 1: You should be putting that time into something that pays

2038
01:52:41,439 --> 01:52:44,120
Speaker 1: your bills. You know why you have trying to change

2039
01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 1: this guy's mind. And so I was thinking, No, you're

2040
01:52:46,520 --> 01:52:48,559
Speaker 1: a writer, don't you know, don't don't waste your writing

2041
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:51,280
Speaker 1: on this guy or this woman. It just doesn't make

2042
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 1: any sense. Okay, Getty final thoughts. That was a good

2043
01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,919
Speaker 1: one right there. That's your town path that that doesn't conclude.

2044
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that that was a good concluding thought.

2045
01:53:02,560 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: I like that. We'll come back around you, Spencer. Uh.

2046
01:53:07,479 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 1: Con If you like Pat's contributions on the podcast, I

2047
01:53:12,040 --> 01:53:14,240
Speaker 1: like this man. This is great. Like the connections you're drawn,

2048
01:53:14,320 --> 01:53:16,080
Speaker 1: You're gonna like him even better. On the website, go

2049
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:18,800
Speaker 1: to the media dot Com click on contributors. Pat writes

2050
01:53:18,840 --> 01:53:20,720
Speaker 1: an article every two weeks for us. It's some of

2051
01:53:20,720 --> 01:53:23,120
Speaker 1: the best stuff that we've put out, Spencer. Check out

2052
01:53:23,200 --> 01:53:26,040
Speaker 1: his work there. Uh, you'll be entertained. You will not

2053
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 1: be disappointed. Thank you. Yeah, good research based stuff, man,

2054
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:32,080
Speaker 1: Thank you. You guys make a lot of good phone calls,

2055
01:53:32,880 --> 01:53:36,040
Speaker 1: and you have an ear. You have an ear for

2056
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 1: the counterintuitive, and I've never been told that before. Thank you.

2057
01:53:40,640 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 1: I think you kind of like things where, you know,

2058
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 1: you like things where everybody sort of makes an assumption about, Oh,

2059
01:53:48,240 --> 01:53:50,920
Speaker 1: that's gotta be what it is, and then you'll be like,

2060
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:53,160
Speaker 1: you know what, I know that it sure seems like

2061
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:56,160
Speaker 1: that's what it is. But the truth is a little

2062
01:53:56,360 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 1: different than what you think than what you come to

2063
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,360
Speaker 1: an immediate conclusion. And you know what's fun about when

2064
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:05,840
Speaker 1: you going to research type stuff and watch researchers present

2065
01:54:05,920 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 1: their stuff and read about their thought process. So often

2066
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:12,920
Speaker 1: they're really these are typically smart people, but so often

2067
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:15,120
Speaker 1: they get into the research and realize their assumptions were

2068
01:54:15,160 --> 01:54:18,600
Speaker 1: all wrong and they've they've proven it themselves now that

2069
01:54:18,680 --> 01:54:20,560
Speaker 1: that didn't turn out the way where I did it.

2070
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:24,680
Speaker 1: I UM, I can just think of it. It's this, um,

2071
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:26,880
Speaker 1: I keep going back time hover line. But he wrote

2072
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:29,840
Speaker 1: a whole book basically about his his research as a

2073
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 1: real sociologist, different things, different assumptions he had about different topics.

2074
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:37,840
Speaker 1: For there's wolves, something the up or people flooding victims

2075
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:40,560
Speaker 1: out in Western States, how they would be responding to

2076
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 1: different things, and so often you're his his um his

2077
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:48,920
Speaker 1: his hypothesis was just you know, shattered by the by

2078
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 1: the actual results. And I think that's that's where, like,

2079
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, I don't care who it is. You're talking

2080
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:58,520
Speaker 1: about people and people's motivations. You get into people's motivations

2081
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:01,360
Speaker 1: and why they did something. Man, you're playing a fire there.

2082
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 1: You don't know. Most of us can't explain our own

2083
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:06,000
Speaker 1: motivations why we do certain things. When you start making

2084
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 1: those assumptions about people in the public eye or whether

2085
01:55:10,720 --> 01:55:13,600
Speaker 1: they're they're scientists or people saying you're pushing a genda,

2086
01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:15,760
Speaker 1: think heck, most of us we don't know. If you're

2087
01:55:15,840 --> 01:55:17,680
Speaker 1: in a gener we don't know what it is. You know,

2088
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:19,560
Speaker 1: we just we can't operate that what we do and

2089
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:26,040
Speaker 1: who knows where that ship comes from. You think people

2090
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 1: are make assumptions about people who are in the public eye. Yeah,

2091
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:33,800
Speaker 1: people like you know what people like a good story about.

2092
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:37,920
Speaker 1: They like a good story about what an asshole some

2093
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:42,040
Speaker 1: famous person. Yes, they like that better than what a

2094
01:55:42,120 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 1: good guy like you could tell someone. I can tell

2095
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 1: you a story about a celebrity who turns out there,

2096
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:50,520
Speaker 1: pretty good guy. I can tell you a story about

2097
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:54,000
Speaker 1: celebrity who's actually an asshole. Nine out of ten people

2098
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:56,440
Speaker 1: are going to take the ladder, and people can't wait

2099
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 1: to tell you that shitty story. Yeah, and it's I

2100
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:02,280
Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but I looked away all

2101
01:56:02,320 --> 01:56:04,640
Speaker 1: these different people in history. I don't care if you're

2102
01:56:04,640 --> 01:56:08,600
Speaker 1: talking about presidents or obscure senators. Look at and you think, yeah,

2103
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:11,680
Speaker 1: but there and that. The net result is they're pretty

2104
01:56:11,720 --> 01:56:14,160
Speaker 1: cool people. They might have had their their their problems

2105
01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:16,120
Speaker 1: here and there, but you know, I look at my

2106
01:56:16,160 --> 01:56:17,880
Speaker 1: own father that way a lot. You know, where I

2107
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:21,800
Speaker 1: grew up really just puzzled and scared him at times. It's,

2108
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:24,640
Speaker 1: you know, really wondering what the hell is this problem?

2109
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:27,240
Speaker 1: But then as time goes on, you look back on

2110
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:29,360
Speaker 1: his life and you know, you give a eulogy like

2111
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:33,240
Speaker 1: I did when he died, and you realize, yeah, it's

2112
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:36,120
Speaker 1: I think I think that's a philosopher, the Pascal. I

2113
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:40,040
Speaker 1: think it is pscl don't fres a philosopher named Pascal.

2114
01:56:40,160 --> 01:56:43,200
Speaker 1: I think he said, I think it's him. I might

2115
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:45,440
Speaker 1: be misquoting, getting the wrong guys saying this, but he

2116
01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:48,839
Speaker 1: said Amanda is not shows greatness of being at one extreme.

2117
01:56:49,240 --> 01:56:51,240
Speaker 1: He shows greatness by being at both extremes at the

2118
01:56:51,280 --> 01:56:55,280
Speaker 1: same time. And I think that's that's my dad. You

2119
01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 1: know that you could be this just um borderline a

2120
01:56:58,880 --> 01:57:03,040
Speaker 1: physically abusive and then an hour later track you down

2121
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:06,360
Speaker 1: and have a real heartfelt conversation with you. We're later

2122
01:57:06,440 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 1: in life, you've figured out you know, he lost his temper.

2123
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:14,400
Speaker 1: He realized he lost his temper, and but he's he

2124
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:16,760
Speaker 1: cares enough about how what he just did to you

2125
01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:18,920
Speaker 1: to come out and track you down and try to

2126
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:21,800
Speaker 1: smooth things over a little bit. I hope my kids

2127
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:25,960
Speaker 1: remember that, like the three times I did that this weekend.

2128
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:29,080
Speaker 1: That's why I'm always telling my kids too. At the day,

2129
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, take note of the expert parenting I'm doing

2130
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:36,960
Speaker 1: right now. Someday you'll you'll like to talk about this definitely. Uh.

2131
01:57:37,200 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 1: One time, this is my concluder. Uh. I had just moved,

2132
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 1: we'd moved my family, and I was in a we

2133
01:57:44,280 --> 01:57:47,280
Speaker 1: were in a house. Yet we're just in a hotel

2134
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:50,040
Speaker 1: and I'm there with my just me. My wife's not

2135
01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:52,200
Speaker 1: there and I'm just there with my three kids. And

2136
01:57:52,240 --> 01:57:54,720
Speaker 1: then and then we're leaving on a long trip for work.

2137
01:57:55,560 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 1: So I wake up and my kids are all sleeping

2138
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 1: in the hotel room and when I'm on the floor

2139
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:03,720
Speaker 1: and to her in bed, and it's very sad for me,

2140
01:58:03,920 --> 01:58:06,440
Speaker 1: like could we just moved there kind of in all

2141
01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:10,360
Speaker 1: this there in this uncertain space, and I need to

2142
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:13,840
Speaker 1: like slip out to go to the airport, and our

2143
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:16,280
Speaker 1: babysitters like waiting at the door so that at four

2144
01:58:16,280 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 1: in the morning, I can walk out and she can

2145
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:21,160
Speaker 1: come in. And my wife need still hasn't gotten in

2146
01:58:21,160 --> 01:58:24,320
Speaker 1: to town yet, and I'm like feeling very conflicted about

2147
01:58:25,120 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 1: leaving my children right just like that, that we had

2148
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:32,400
Speaker 1: invited this chaos and how they might perceive this. And

2149
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeahning and I go to the airport. It's early five,

2150
01:58:36,880 --> 01:58:39,600
Speaker 1: six in the morning, and we run into a buddy

2151
01:58:39,600 --> 01:58:43,760
Speaker 1: of ours whose friend has just fallen to his death

2152
01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:49,680
Speaker 1: in the mountains. And a guy comes up and he

2153
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 1: wants to take a picture. He's like fan of the show.

2154
01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:56,600
Speaker 1: We do the picture, and then it's not an hour later,

2155
01:58:56,920 --> 01:58:59,840
Speaker 1: get a letter, get an email about what an a

2156
01:59:00,080 --> 01:59:04,839
Speaker 1: soul I am? How really let him down and seemed

2157
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:14,440
Speaker 1: like I was distracted, but the Yanni was cool. Ye, dude,

2158
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:18,600
Speaker 1: you know you're walking in on a life and progress

2159
01:59:19,280 --> 01:59:21,840
Speaker 1: at six in the morning. You don't know the context.

2160
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I let you down. I have a friend.

2161
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I was distracted, but the loss of

2162
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:31,120
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like I have a

2163
01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:36,280
Speaker 1: friend that as I I like, um, Gordon Lightfoot's music,

2164
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 1: not just the famous I've seen him live twice. Yeah,

2165
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:41,640
Speaker 1: and I like I like his stuff and but one,

2166
01:59:41,800 --> 01:59:44,960
Speaker 1: but you don't, of course you do. Are you telling

2167
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:47,040
Speaker 1: me this person out there who could have a problem

2168
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:49,760
Speaker 1: with the records? But I tell you a guy who

2169
01:59:49,800 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 1: was a problem with Gordon kick his ass, would kick

2170
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: his ass. Go ahead, Yeah, this this my friend Tom.

2171
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 1: Why actually my friend that that Tom is now deceased.

2172
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:03,400
Speaker 1: But Tom one time when he heard that how much

2173
02:00:03,480 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 1: I liked Lightfoot? Um, he says, Okay, I'll keep talking.

2174
02:00:13,720 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 1: While while Tom was on this pier and Sturgeon Big Wisconsin,

2175
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:21,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of people come sailing off the Great

2176
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:25,120
Speaker 1: Lakes in the Sturgeon Bay. Well, one time, Tom's on

2177
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:28,920
Speaker 1: on this pier in Sturgeon b Wisconsin, and who comes

2178
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:32,080
Speaker 1: walking down the pier toward him but Gordon Lightfoot. He

2179
02:00:32,400 --> 02:00:37,120
Speaker 1: had you know, he's a sailor and and Tom. Tom's

2180
02:00:37,160 --> 02:00:39,880
Speaker 1: on front who works the marina, knew like for enough

2181
02:00:39,920 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 1: to where he could introduce him. And as he's coming close,

2182
02:00:43,440 --> 02:00:46,000
Speaker 1: this guy starts talking to Lightfoot, want an interest in

2183
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 1: to Tom and like for just watch right by him

2184
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:51,880
Speaker 1: without you and acknowledge him, and and Tom to this

2185
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:55,400
Speaker 1: was dying day. I didn't like the guy because of that.

2186
02:00:55,440 --> 02:00:57,720
Speaker 1: And I said, I said to him about Tom for

2187
02:00:57,800 --> 02:01:00,360
Speaker 1: all you know, he was just in the bar. This

2188
02:01:00,480 --> 02:01:03,080
Speaker 1: is back in days of a pay phone. Maybe Si

2189
02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 1: is calling someone died in his life, maybe his wife

2190
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:08,720
Speaker 1: cut cheating, no meer, who knows, Maybe he's in the

2191
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:11,760
Speaker 1: middle of anurism. I mean, who knows, you know? Said,

2192
02:01:11,800 --> 02:01:14,360
Speaker 1: why would you think he would? Why do you take

2193
02:01:14,400 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 1: that so personally? You know what I mean? They got

2194
02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:21,320
Speaker 1: something on his mind. Son. When I saw Gordon both

2195
02:01:21,400 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 1: times I saw him, he knows that, like a lot

2196
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:25,680
Speaker 1: of people are there for the rack, especially in Michigan.

2197
02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 1: That's big ship, right, definitely, that's big Every Michigander who

2198
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:35,720
Speaker 1: who has a any kind of right to call themselves

2199
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:38,400
Speaker 1: as such carries a has a weight in their heart

2200
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:42,600
Speaker 1: about the reck of y Evan Fitzgerald. Uh, and Gordon

2201
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:46,200
Speaker 1: knows when he's playing Michigan. Well, I saw him in Sioux, Ontario,

2202
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:48,560
Speaker 1: which is sister city of the Sioux Michigan, and then

2203
02:01:48,640 --> 02:01:51,840
Speaker 1: I saw him in Traverse City, Michigan. And he knows

2204
02:01:52,440 --> 02:01:55,360
Speaker 1: that everyone's there to watch him do the rack and it.

2205
02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:58,640
Speaker 1: They're probably gonna allot him, are gonna split afterward. But

2206
02:01:58,760 --> 02:02:00,800
Speaker 1: he's come to peace with that, and he puts it

2207
02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 1: that in appropriate place. He doesn't wait till like the

2208
02:02:02,880 --> 02:02:04,880
Speaker 1: bitter end. He doesn't wait for an encore. He doesn't

2209
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:06,840
Speaker 1: want to lead his audience on. He doesn't hit it

2210
02:02:06,920 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 1: with him too early where they're not ready, and he

2211
02:02:09,000 --> 02:02:12,400
Speaker 1: knows where to put it in the act, and he

2212
02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 1: also knows how to sell people on it. So like

2213
02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:17,160
Speaker 1: when I saw him in Sue Ontario, he's out there

2214
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:19,280
Speaker 1: doing his deal doing all He's got a lot of hits, right,

2215
02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:22,720
Speaker 1: but he's up there doing his deal and uh, we're

2216
02:02:22,720 --> 02:02:25,560
Speaker 1: in a big hockey stadium and all of a sudden

2217
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:28,120
Speaker 1: he says, um, I can't remember what number, what what

2218
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:30,480
Speaker 1: year it was, But all of a sudden he gets

2219
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:32,920
Speaker 1: off and he goes, um, it was twenty years ago,

2220
02:02:33,040 --> 02:02:36,680
Speaker 1: this November whatever, some cryptic thing like that, and people

2221
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:40,000
Speaker 1: just come out of their seats. People come out of

2222
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:45,880
Speaker 1: their seats. Yeah, whoa, you know, every's so excited. He

2223
02:02:46,000 --> 02:02:48,600
Speaker 1: does the record, the Evan Fitzgerald takes some out eleven

2224
02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:53,000
Speaker 1: minutes and then people just kind of split. Man, I've

2225
02:02:53,040 --> 02:02:56,280
Speaker 1: never seen that happened. I've seen him. I'm not kidding you.

2226
02:02:56,280 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 1: I've seen Gordon Land for at least ten times, and

2227
02:02:59,040 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 1: I've not seeing people's But he sings that song. But yeah,

2228
02:03:02,200 --> 02:03:05,320
Speaker 1: I'll never have but may may. Maybe I'm not paying attention.

2229
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:10,280
Speaker 1: It's a great jukebox song, because really get that in

2230
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:16,160
Speaker 1: American pie back to back, Yeah, dude, fifty cents you

2231
02:03:16,240 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 1: get three hours and listening to join. You know, Dandy

2232
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:20,920
Speaker 1: Warhols do a cover of the Wreck of the administ

2233
02:03:22,320 --> 02:03:27,520
Speaker 1: It's not very good. Oh you got any concluders. Oh man,

2234
02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard to come on the heels of

2235
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:34,800
Speaker 1: all this good stuff. But I heard this brought a

2236
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:39,360
Speaker 1: great song. Pat talking about writing as a you know,

2237
02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 1: wasting your time writing a bad response to somebody. Um

2238
02:03:44,560 --> 02:03:46,680
Speaker 1: that that hits home and it got me to thinking

2239
02:03:46,680 --> 02:03:49,120
Speaker 1: about how my father in law recently we were He

2240
02:03:49,240 --> 02:03:52,080
Speaker 1: was telling my daughter how he just doesn't fight with

2241
02:03:52,120 --> 02:03:54,400
Speaker 1: anybody anymore and doesn't get angry because it's just a

2242
02:03:54,440 --> 02:03:56,640
Speaker 1: waste of time, you know, and he's so he's over it.

2243
02:03:56,840 --> 02:03:58,720
Speaker 1: He's at that point in life, Yeah, where it's like

2244
02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:01,600
Speaker 1: freaking you know, you just like time just get shorter

2245
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:03,520
Speaker 1: and shorter and there's less and less of it, and

2246
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:06,000
Speaker 1: you're just like, I'm not going to spend time um

2247
02:04:06,240 --> 02:04:09,800
Speaker 1: doing that anymore. But then I think it might have

2248
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:12,839
Speaker 1: been an NPR. Over the weekend, I heard this quote.

2249
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:15,160
Speaker 1: I really liked it. I think I should share it.

2250
02:04:15,280 --> 02:04:18,080
Speaker 1: It's a Sam Clements quote. You know that guy some

2251
02:04:18,160 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 1: folks call Mark Twain. Yeah, there isn't time, So brief

2252
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:28,960
Speaker 1: is life for bickerings, apologies, heartburnings, callings to account. There's

2253
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:33,480
Speaker 1: only time for loving and but an instant, an instant

2254
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:38,400
Speaker 1: so to speak for that. That's not Mark Twain, is it?

2255
02:04:38,560 --> 02:04:41,160
Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like something he'd say. But all Mark

2256
02:04:41,200 --> 02:04:43,879
Speaker 1: Twain did a is bicker and call people to account.

2257
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:52,640
Speaker 1: It did entire life to calling people to account. Maybe

2258
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 1: this was late in life, Yeah, all right. Yeah. Plus

2259
02:04:56,360 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 1: you can also have a quote that, like, you have

2260
02:04:58,480 --> 02:05:02,640
Speaker 1: a quote that contradicts sort of what you've done. Yeah,

2261
02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:04,520
Speaker 1: you can picture like Mike Tison being like, you know,

2262
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:11,160
Speaker 1: you should never punch another person, right, yeah, sure, then

2263
02:05:11,400 --> 02:05:14,640
Speaker 1: that sounds like I mean so often these days when

2264
02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:17,000
Speaker 1: people quote Mark Twain at my intendant, because I think

2265
02:05:17,720 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 1: Mark Twain has been given all sorts of quotes, they

2266
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:23,720
Speaker 1: never said that one actually sounds like like his way,

2267
02:05:23,840 --> 02:05:26,280
Speaker 1: he's space pasted and stuff like that. That probably has

2268
02:05:26,320 --> 02:05:30,360
Speaker 1: the Mark Twain. But dark snow Twain hated Roosevelt. Yeah

2269
02:05:30,400 --> 02:05:34,120
Speaker 1: I didn't like. Yeah, yeah, well, well Twain wrote, I

2270
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:38,120
Speaker 1: think when the great um criticism of turkey hunting ever

2271
02:05:38,240 --> 02:05:44,880
Speaker 1: written what, Yeah, I don't know. He thought it was

2272
02:05:44,960 --> 02:05:49,320
Speaker 1: just the height the height of um. I can't remember

2273
02:05:49,320 --> 02:05:52,880
Speaker 1: what term you used, mean spiritedness to take the wing

2274
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:55,760
Speaker 1: bone from a turkey and crafted into a call and

2275
02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:59,680
Speaker 1: then fool that bird with its own um bone basically,

2276
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:03,840
Speaker 1: And it's an interesting story, but it's it's it's it's

2277
02:06:03,880 --> 02:06:06,120
Speaker 1: really good. I I'd like I would say, yeah, if

2278
02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 1: you caught a turkey in a live trap and cut

2279
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:12,000
Speaker 1: its bone out of it, cut its wing off, cut

2280
02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:14,600
Speaker 1: it loose, made a call, called it back in, and

2281
02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:18,320
Speaker 1: killed it, yes, yeah, but a different turkeys bone. No,

2282
02:06:19,240 --> 02:06:22,240
Speaker 1: I just say we agreed with him. Yeah, can I

2283
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:24,720
Speaker 1: tell one more from my concluder because you still got

2284
02:06:24,760 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 1: a concluder. Yeah, try to rob you of it, but

2285
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:30,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you have it. Is n done. I'm done. Okay,

2286
02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:33,600
Speaker 1: I'm not telling another unless you find the Turkey quote.

2287
02:06:34,360 --> 02:06:37,200
Speaker 1: And so it's actually a whole short short story. It's

2288
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:40,000
Speaker 1: it's worth reading. Though. Um, I'm not telling tell you

2289
02:06:40,000 --> 02:06:45,520
Speaker 1: another cool Rick Krueger story. I thought of enthusiast I

2290
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:49,080
Speaker 1: thought about this one. Um is it? Ben Long wrote

2291
02:06:49,120 --> 02:06:51,800
Speaker 1: the pieces last week or so on on these on

2292
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:55,960
Speaker 1: trump sniffing dogs, Um, the fact that you could train

2293
02:06:56,040 --> 02:06:58,440
Speaker 1: dogs to sniff fall trout and the species of trout,

2294
02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:04,080
Speaker 1: even walter in the water. Well, Rick Krueger, Mhm, I

2295
02:07:04,160 --> 02:07:06,280
Speaker 1: never knew till I talked to him. He just tell

2296
02:07:06,360 --> 02:07:09,040
Speaker 1: me that that these cadaver dogs. Everyone. I always thought

2297
02:07:09,080 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 1: caldaver dogs basically were operated on land, and that you know,

2298
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:15,560
Speaker 1: that was the only place they could they could be

2299
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:18,680
Speaker 1: have any use. But he says he had a case.

2300
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:22,720
Speaker 1: This is only about five ten years ago now. A

2301
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:25,400
Speaker 1: young man from called Connam, Wisconsin, was Don and Madison

2302
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:29,080
Speaker 1: in December early this mid December for a for a

2303
02:07:29,200 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 1: conference and he went out drinking. And people who know

2304
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:36,400
Speaker 1: the Lake Mondotta structure, there's a there's a hotel on

2305
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:40,720
Speaker 1: the southwestern end of Lake Monona. You can see it

2306
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:44,120
Speaker 1: from across different parts of the lake. This guy was

2307
02:07:44,160 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 1: out drinking, got drunk and banged on some woman's window.

2308
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:53,080
Speaker 1: He's twenty six year old guy, and I wanted to help,

2309
02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:55,120
Speaker 1: basically because he didn't I don't know if you didn't

2310
02:07:55,120 --> 02:07:57,080
Speaker 1: know where he was. But the woman kind of freaked

2311
02:07:57,120 --> 02:07:58,600
Speaker 1: out and didn't didn't know what he wants, so she

2312
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:01,400
Speaker 1: didn't answer answer him. But then she saw him kind

2313
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:04,040
Speaker 1: of shelfling off toward the lake. And they think what

2314
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:07,000
Speaker 1: happened was he tried taking a short cut across the

2315
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:08,920
Speaker 1: lake on the ice to the to the hotel where

2316
02:08:08,920 --> 02:08:11,880
Speaker 1: he was staying. Never made it there. He was missing,

2317
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:17,760
Speaker 1: and the lakes were partially frozen, so they're pretty sure

2318
02:08:17,800 --> 02:08:19,800
Speaker 1: he tried going across the lake thus directions from and

2319
02:08:19,800 --> 02:08:21,920
Speaker 1: saw him going. Well, they went out there and they

2320
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:26,000
Speaker 1: had these cadaver dogs and then in like thirty three

2321
02:08:26,080 --> 02:08:28,280
Speaker 1: ft of water. These cadaver dogs, I guess when they

2322
02:08:28,680 --> 02:08:31,440
Speaker 1: smell what they're out there, you know, trying to find

2323
02:08:31,840 --> 02:08:34,760
Speaker 1: they'll sit down. I guess they just sit and well,

2324
02:08:34,800 --> 02:08:38,560
Speaker 1: here they're in the spot and they sat. No, yeah,

2325
02:08:39,160 --> 02:08:43,600
Speaker 1: thirty three ft of water. As I asked if, I said, really,

2326
02:08:44,240 --> 02:08:46,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know this, and he was yeah. And so

2327
02:08:46,800 --> 02:08:50,440
Speaker 1: that the police marked that GPS unit and they could

2328
02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:53,040
Speaker 1: not because of weather in the because of conditions, they

2329
02:08:53,080 --> 02:08:55,960
Speaker 1: couldn't go down and check it out. And so they

2330
02:08:56,320 --> 02:08:59,160
Speaker 1: so Rick got those coordinates of where they were, those

2331
02:08:59,200 --> 02:09:03,520
Speaker 1: cadaver dogs that spot in Lake Manona. And that was

2332
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:07,720
Speaker 1: like in December. Come April, the lakes are free advice.

2333
02:09:08,440 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 1: Rick got his boat ready to go. I got it

2334
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:13,200
Speaker 1: all fired up and got verified the GPS coordinates, went

2335
02:09:13,240 --> 02:09:17,240
Speaker 1: out there very first pass finds what he thinks there's

2336
02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:19,200
Speaker 1: a curled up body in the bottom the lake right there,

2337
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: and so and he pulls pulls his camera down a

2338
02:09:22,760 --> 02:09:26,200
Speaker 1: his his procedures. He got his camera down and he

2339
02:09:26,480 --> 02:09:30,280
Speaker 1: thinks he could see that little camera viewfinder what looked

2340
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:34,720
Speaker 1: like a boot or a shoe or something. And he

2341
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:37,280
Speaker 1: wasn't quite certain though, so he went home, but on

2342
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:43,120
Speaker 1: his computer blew it up definitely that guy. And they

2343
02:09:43,160 --> 02:09:46,320
Speaker 1: went out there and went on got him and yeah,

2344
02:09:47,240 --> 02:09:50,400
Speaker 1: but then but you can't rule out that dog was

2345
02:09:50,480 --> 02:09:57,120
Speaker 1: a psychic. You just I mean, this is why you're

2346
02:09:58,120 --> 02:10:02,680
Speaker 1: this is why your podcast that he smelled it, but

2347
02:10:02,800 --> 02:10:06,800
Speaker 1: I think he might have picked up on that unmistakable

2348
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:12,320
Speaker 1: juju that comes off of Well then then my my

2349
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:15,400
Speaker 1: um so my footnote to that one though, when I

2350
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:19,360
Speaker 1: when I questioned Rick on these dogs have that ability

2351
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:22,360
Speaker 1: to be able to pick out a cent thirty three

2352
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:24,920
Speaker 1: ft down in the bottom of the lake, he said, well,

2353
02:10:24,920 --> 02:10:26,880
Speaker 1: if you want, if you think that's impressive, he said.

2354
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:30,240
Speaker 1: Over a lake Mondota, not too far away from there,

2355
02:10:30,280 --> 02:10:33,800
Speaker 1: there's these these um up behind the u W University

2356
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:37,840
Speaker 1: of Wisconsin campus. There's this nice cool ridge along the lake,

2357
02:10:38,240 --> 02:10:43,600
Speaker 1: and up there are some old Indian mounds and they

2358
02:10:43,640 --> 02:10:45,240
Speaker 1: were out there with the cadaver dogs for for some

2359
02:10:45,360 --> 02:10:48,160
Speaker 1: reason doing something, probably looking for someone else. And these

2360
02:10:48,240 --> 02:10:52,120
Speaker 1: dogs kept sitting at a certain spout out there, and

2361
02:10:52,200 --> 02:10:54,800
Speaker 1: the only thing they could come to conclude was that

2362
02:10:55,040 --> 02:10:58,800
Speaker 1: somehow there were scent is coming off those those moulins

2363
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:01,720
Speaker 1: up there. These dogs are picking it up. There something

2364
02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 1: up there that they could pick up, and that's what

2365
02:11:04,800 --> 02:11:08,879
Speaker 1: they kept sitting right there. It's interesting and they've been

2366
02:11:08,960 --> 02:11:13,800
Speaker 1: psychic about that too. So who well, Pat Durkin, it's

2367
02:11:13,800 --> 02:11:16,520
Speaker 1: always a pleasure to have you on. Thank you like

2368
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:18,480
Speaker 1: how you always came, You got like things we need

2369
02:11:18,560 --> 02:11:24,280
Speaker 1: to cover, makes our job easy. What's enjoyable? Ski, Thanks

2370
02:11:24,280 --> 02:11:24,680
Speaker 1: for having me