WEBVTT - From the Vault: Tea, Part 1 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:07.560 Hey you, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.440 My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.000 and it's Saturday. We're heading into the vault for a 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.799 classic episode of the show. This one originally aired on 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.080 February second, twenty twenty three. This is part one of 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:26.480 our series on Tea Hope you enjoy. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.440 The first cup caresses my dry lips and throat. The 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.360 second shatters the walls of my lonely sadness. The third 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.320 searches the dry rivulets of my soul to find the 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.440 stories of five thousand scrolls. With the fourth, the pain 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.800 of life's grievances evaporates through my pores. The fifth relaxes 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.760 my muscles and bones become light. With the sixth, I 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.080 find the path that leads to the immortal ancestors. Oh, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.960 the seventh cup, better not take it. If I had it, 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.720 the only feeling is the fresh en blowing through my 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.800 wings as I make my way to Pung Lai. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.200 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.000 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.120 is Robert Lamb. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.039 And I'm Joe McCormack, and today we're going to begin 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.320 a series on tea. Yes, t the beverage and the 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.680 plant that it comes from. Now, Rob, you began today's 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.800 episode by reading a Is this a poem or a song? 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.480 This is a poem by Lu Toong from the Tang 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.440 dynasty titled Seven Bowls of Tea, and it's it's pretty 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:50.000 widely cited. I ran across various like tea blogs talking 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.080 about it and sometimes saying that this is overly sited 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.360 in the literature of tea, especially in the West, and 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.760 I think with good reason, because it's it's amazing. It 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.960 captures this just intense enthusiasm for tea. And also it's 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.639 essentially about a man drinking way too much tea during 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.720 the course of the day that brings him to the 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.680 to the very brink of like blinking out of physical 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.359 reality and going to toping lie the mystical mountain where 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.160 you have fantastic creatures and immortal beings. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.639 So you don't want to do the seventh cup because 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.320 that will just essentially you will leave your body in 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.040 the place where you currently reside. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.480 Right, But it's not it doesn't seem to be a 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.400 case where you have to worry about like crashing with 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.600 that seventh cup. It's just the seventh cup is one 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.480 pleasure beyond that which you should grant yourself. You should. 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.560 You have to show restraint because you still have stuff 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.160 to do here in the mortal realm. 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.760 Well, I like the way that the poem escalates because 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.640 at the beginning it's more just about the like the 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.919 first line is about the sensory experience, caresses, dry lips 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.480 and throat. It's it's happening in the mouth. And then 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.200 after that it's like mood, you know, shatters the walls 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.079 of my lonely sadness. That's mood stuff. That's level two. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.600 But beyond that, you're like talking about communing with other beings, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.200 the path that leads to the immortal ancestors. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.920 Yeah, it gets very spiritual towards the end, transformative. 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.560 Even I've never gone six cups in on caffeinated tea, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.440 but I don't doubt it. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.320 Yeah, I my wife and I probably have, but only 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.200 through re steeps. We're big into picking out a good 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.160 tea that you can resteep several times. So I could 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:40.760 probably write a similar poem about, like, you know, steeps 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.920 one through four or five on a particular tea that 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.760 I like, because sometimes you get get the you get 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.680 an interesting tea, and it changes like cup. Cup one 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.840 might actually not be the best cup, and it's your 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.320 second or third steep where things maybe become a little 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.200 more nuanced, a little less sharp. I found that to 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.240 be the case with some of the poorer teas that 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:04.920 I really like. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.800 I assume does the caffeine content become less powerful as 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:11.400 you go through multiple steeps. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.440 That is my understanding, and I believe that is my experience, 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.200 and that's one of the reasons I tell myself that 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.400 it's okay to have so many cups of tea during 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.200 the course of an afternoon because I'm getting decreased returns 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.920 on the cup from a caffeine standpoint. But yeah, we've 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.280 touched on tea in the past, but I don't think 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.200 we've ever done a proper deep dive on this most 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.760 splendid beverage, not just splendid, but really one of the 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.800 most popular beverages in the world. You could probably make 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.520 a case for it being the most popular. There's a 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.640 great deal of variety to how it's cultivated, prepared, brewed, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.920 and consumed, and yeah, there's no denying its appeal. And 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.160 it's importance weaves in and out of global history, various cultures. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.800 It factors into mythology, literature, politics, and much much more. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.119 Yes, And to clarify something here, I guess we should 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.560 do this at the beginning. There's a little bit of 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.120 confusion in English. I don't know if it's like this 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.040 in other languages, but at least in English. There are 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.520 a lot of things that we call tea that are 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.160 not made with the tea plant. So we use the 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.400 word tea as like a generic synonym basically for an infusion. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.200 Anytime you take a substance, herbal or otherwise, and you 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.120 expose it to hot water in order to extract some 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.560 kind of flavor or chemical compounds into the water, and 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.039 then you drink the water, people will call this a 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.120 tea no matter what it is. So you've got herbal 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.520 teas made from everything from like camomal to turmeric to mint, 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.960 or even cases where people will refer to meat based 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.200 broths as like beef tea, but there is no really. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.400 But there is also the specific tea plant, the leaves 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.640 of which are used to make tea proper. And it 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.520 is this plant and its eponymous infusion that we're going 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.840 to be most focusing on in these episodes. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.159 And obviously there are various blends that have taken place. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.559 There's so many teas available now, especially loose leaf teas 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:13.960 where you'll have like little bits of dried flavor bits 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.479 that are not tea, but still the primary ingredient is 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.720 the dried tea. Now, I think one of the other 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.680 exciting things about this is and this is going to 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.280 be a fun one to hear from listeners because I 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.800 know everyone out there you have your own individual story 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.880 with tea. You probably have your own cultural story with tea. 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.440 For my own part, I've come to like a number 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.480 of different teas. I want to also throw out an 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.880 important caveat that I would not say that I am 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.120 like a tea super nerd, you know, like I'm not 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.839 a connoisseur of teas, So I'm not going to be 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.640 speaking from that vantage point in these episodes. But I've 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.880 grown particularly fond of these pooh Air teas, which we'll 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.880 discuss in due course. I like several things about them. Obviously, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.719 I like the various tastes. They often have this kind 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.039 of dark, earthy or sometimes there's lighter, but there's often 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.720 an earthy tone to them sometimes compared to hay, and 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.360 that is a flavor profile that I find it works. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.840 You get interesting results when you do re steeps on it, 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.960 because the hay taste might be a bit strong in 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.520 that first cup, but then cup two or three is 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.600 generally the comfort zone for me personally. I also really 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.520 love how so many of these particular teas are preserved 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.680 in bricks or pucks. Sometimes you have to break up 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.200 the brick with a little specialized knife, and I like 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.880 the ritual of that. I also like it when it's 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:45.720 a little puck that's already been prepared, often circular, sometimes 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.920 heart shaped today and that can be a lot of 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.600 fun as well, and also makes it a little handy 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:51.840 easy to get into the tea bag. 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.680 Rob, I seem to recall you getting very into the 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.960 idea of some kind of disgusting nineteenth century way of 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.960 preparing coffee that involved like brick or puck based concentrate. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:04.360 Am I remembering that right now? 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.760 Oh? No, no, no. I think I was interested in 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.120 the study of like Civil War era instant coffee, but 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.640 none of it sounded like anything I wanted to even 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:15.440 experiment with. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:17.800 Okay, no, no, no, I just meant that you were 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.200 interested in the idea and not that like you, oh yeah, 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.520 hawking it's virtues as great coffee. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.760 No, No, it's just it's interesting history like the and 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.000 it kind of speaks to the importance of caffeinated beverages 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.200 to the people who consume them. You'll have situa like 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.400 war situations where people realize, hey, these soldiers need coffee, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.480 these soldiers need tea. How do we get that to them? 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:42.400 What is the most cost effective means of doing so? 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.719 What happens when the product is bad? How do the 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.040 soldiers in the field relate to this additional indignity. I 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:54.080 also love how tea is like anything else. There's nothing 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.920 like great branding. I love some of the names of 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.680 the teas that I have enjoyed, Like there's one called 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.199 the Bewitched Emperor, there's one called Evil Snake King, and 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.880 so yeah, I'm obviously these are just the labels given 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.959 to these and these are the English I think that 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.240 these are translations though, of what they're actually called in 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.000 the case of these two in China as well. But 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.240 I just love the idea that is wrapped up in 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.439 the branding for these as well. It makes me feel 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.880 like I'm not only enjoying an afternoon cup of tea, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.120 but I'm engaging in something possibly supernatural. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.880 Well, I would say that I sense no other beverage 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:38.280 to have as rich an array of supernatural associations as tea. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.880 Yeah, I think so. Like there's just there's so and 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.080 it's one of the things that's interesting but also could 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:48.000 probably be intimidating at times. Is you get into not 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:52.040 just tea culture, but various tea cultures that all have 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:56.200 various practices of how you're supposed to prepare it, how 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.000 you're supposed to consume it, and so forth. I mean 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.679 Macha from Japan is of course a great example of this, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.040 and just on its own can be a wonderful tea. Yeah, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.840 there are just so many, so many fascinating teas out there. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.439 We're going to touch on some of the tea cultures 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.080 as we proceed through these episodes. But how about you, Joe, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.360 what's your personal story with tea? 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.559 Well, I am not really a tea drinker, not because 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.440 I dislike tea. I mean, when I have it, I 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.640 enjoy it, But I think it's because for me personally, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.400 there is simply not room for additional caffeine in my life. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.680 I have my morning coffee routine, and I have to 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.200 be very careful even with that, because if I have 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.199 too much coffee, I will spend the rest of the 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.720 day and night having visions of the doom of all 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.760 and just hear the screams of a dying planet like 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.600 I get the fear bad. And it's strange. I wasn't 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.280 always like that. I can think years back, I used 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.040 to hang out with my friends and drink cup after 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.440 cup of coffee and I was fine. Something happened to me, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.840 and now I cannot handle that much caffeine. It just 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.280 wrecks me. So after I've had my daily coffee, I 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.680 do not have tolerance for anything else, no tea proper, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.160 no second or third cup whatever. So in order to 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.920 do caffeinated tea, I think I would have to do 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.680 a full switch out and have it instead of coffee, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.720 which I've never tried to do. But occasionally I do 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.840 enjoy non tea teas. I like some herbal teas, lemon 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.880 ginger infusions and stuff, and I guess they do make 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.920 decaffeinated tea, but I've just never gone down that path. 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.240 M Yeah, yeah, I'm like you, and that I can't 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.840 quite put aside the morning coffee. I've gotten it down 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.400 to just two cups of coffee, my initial wake up 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.840 cup and then the second cup of coffee, and then 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.280 everything after that for me is tea. Generally it's one 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.600 tea bag, multiple steeps of set tea bag. And it's 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.280 worth keeping in mind when thinking about the caffeine. Now, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.720 this is just general, and this maybe can't be applied 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.560 completely across the board, but generally speaking, a cup of coffee, 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.160 a standard cup of coffee is gonna have somewhere between 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.480 one hundred, one hundred and twenty milligrams of caffeine. Meanwhile, 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.680 a cup of black tea is gonna have forty milligrams 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.200 of caffeine. Green tea's gonna have thirty. Green and white 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.160 tend to have the least amount of caffeine, followed by oolong. 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.079 These numbers are pointed out by Laura C. Martin, who's 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.680 excellent book A History of Tea is one of the 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:23.440 sources that I'm going to keep coming back to in 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:24.280 these episodes. 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.560 Okay, so even if I did try to incorporate some 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.240 tea into my daily routine, it would not be equivalent 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.839 to drinking the same volume of coffee. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.840 Yes, that seems to be the case. Now that being said, 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.320 there are so many ways to prepare tea, and certainly 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.480 you could drink enough tea, you could drink those six 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.040 fresh steeps of tea and risk of transporting yourself to 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.280 the mystic mountain. So it's always always a possibility. And 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.280 everybody's different, you know, And I think our relationship with 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.960 caffeine does change as we age, so naturally, yeah, you 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.440 don't have to be a total tea nerd or immerged 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.599 to any degree within an Eastern culture of tea to 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.480 be into TV, because tea has spread around the globe 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.960 by this point. Tea culture now encompasses everything from British 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.959 high tea to Southern sweet iced tea, Taiwanese bubble tea, 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:22.079 to things like Senegaluese tea and their Tibetan tea preparation 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.200 methods that are also rather distinct. And again we'll come 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.000 back to some examples of these later on. But I 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.840 thought an interesting place to start might be too. Instead 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.800 of starting with the familiar or even anything in the 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.960 actual real world, we might start off by getting into 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.200 the mythological origins of tea. Even before we get into 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.880 the botanical realities of tea, we might start in just 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.440 purely mythic and I think mostly Chinese mythological origins for 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.240 this splendid beverage. 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.680 Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute. If we're getting 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.880 into a myth about a psychoactive substance and its ancient 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.280 Chinese myth, are we going to meet the divine farmer 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:03.880 once again? 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.240 Yes, yes we will, because of course, if it involves 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.679 something that you should eat or shouldn't eat, and is 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.000 a plan of some sort, then yeah, the divine farmer 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:16.680 Shinong has to show. 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.200 Up Shinong putting things in his mouth for everybody's benefit. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.320 That's right. Yes, we've talked about Shinong before on the show. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.880 He's a pretty important figure in Chinese mythology and he's 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:32.360 tied to myths concerning various botanical substances. His name literally 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:37.720 means divine farmer. He's a culture bearer, a god. He's 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.080 attributed with the invention of agriculture and the introduction of 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.440 agriculture to human beings. He's an important name in Chinese medicine. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.560 He's said to have invented various farm tools and musical instruments, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.560 So there's a lot that this mythological figure is attributed with. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.120 And you know, obviously as a mythological figure, he is 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.760 sort of summing up and condensing a lot of the 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:05.080 things that actual human beings did over the course of generations. 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:10.040 Figuring out which plant has a medicinal property or seems 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.160 to which plant is good to eat, which plant will 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.000 kill you, that sort of thing. You should definitely look 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.040 up some images of him, because he's He's often depicted 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.040 as this kind of squat older man with bovine or 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.680 ox like characteristics, often kind of wide set eyes, and 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.440 even one of my favorite things about him is he 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.680 often has these kind of nub like horns. Now I 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:34.880 have seen depictions I think these are more modern, but 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.800 it could be wrong where he has like full blown 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.760 horns like a hornet deity. But generally it's these kind 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.080 of nubs where he looks just again, very very bovine. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.880 Would you call them buds? Are those called buds? 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.520 Yeah? They kind of look like like buds. Yeah, Like, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.840 if you don't know what you're looking at, you might say, well, 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:53.880 why does that man have two bumps on his head? 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.800 And it's because it's invoking this kind of ox like characteristics, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.280 a character stick of the character. And in some tales 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.840 he was said to have had the head of a dragon, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.080 others the head of an ox. And so we do 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.080 have to remember that he is a god, of course, 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.680 so it's natural that he might have some qualities like this. 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.280 There are various tales about his birth, including some traditions 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:24.160 that relate his incredible rate of maturity. One version said 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.200 that he could talk at three days old, he had 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.200 all of his teeth, etc. And in some accounts his 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.760 father was an actual dragon. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:32.840 Wait when you said had all of his teeth, you 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.000 meant he was like born with all of his teeth, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:36.400 or he had all of his teeth when he was 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:37.240 three days old. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.560 His memory serves, and I believe this is related in 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.480 the book Chinese Mythology by yang An and Turner, there's 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.120 tales that's like, all right, at three days he had this, 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.520 At four days he had this. So he's just maturing 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.520 at a rapid rate, where at like three months old 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.160 he knows everything about agriculture and he's able to teach 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.920 it to humanity. Okay, but the basic story with Shin 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.520 own concerning plants is that he not only gave humans 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.919 the knowledge of agriculture, he also sussed out which plants 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.879 were useful in medicine and which ones were food, and 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.639 also which ones were poison And he did this, of course, 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:17.520 by testing them all himself. In some tellings, he's not 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.280 actually eating them. He's thrashing them with a reddish brown whip, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.960 like a whip that is. And there's a lot you 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.800 can get into with the symbolism of it. I've seen 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.960 that it's there's something to it that this is kind 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.200 of the color of dried blood. Other times he has 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.199 a cauldron. So yeah. In some cases he says to 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.960 have some tools that he's using. But in many tellings 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:43.040 and certainly many artistic interpretations, he's testing all these various 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.479 botanicals out by eating them, and then afterwards he passes judgment. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.879 He's okay, this this is a plant that would be 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.240 good for medicine, so I'm going to put it into 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.840 my right hand bag. This one is good for food, 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.000 so it's going into my left hand bag, and he 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.480 sorts it generally like that. 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.199 What about the one that are poisonous. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.280 There's one tale where if something's poisonous, he just wants 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.880 to stop it, Like, I think there's a story that's 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:14.159 related about Ginger, where originally Ginger was said to be 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.879 poisonous and Shinong took a look at each he like 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:19.560 he checked it out and he's like, yeah, this is horrible. 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.280 I want to stomp on it as well. And then 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.159 Ginger had to change in order to be accepted, and 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.680 that's when Ginger went underground. Oh beautiful. Yeah, so yeah, 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.480 I want to explore that one more at some point 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.800 because I don't really understand all the meaning going on there, 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.359 but it's it's it's interesting now. I don't know if 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.919 we've talked about this version of the story with Shinong before, 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.280 but as Yang'an and Turner point out, in Chinese mythology, 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:48.240 some versions also state that Shinnong is particularly good at 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.040 figuring all of this out because he has a crystal 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:56.280 stomach and he can see everything that's going on inside 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.000 of his own internal organs as he's digesting things. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.200 It's like top ar. They open up his stomach and 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:04.919 they can look inside and see it see all the 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:05.600 parts working. 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.800 Yeah, yeah, I just I love it. I definitely picture 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.000 this as kind of like almost some sort of an 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.879 android body that he has going on underneath his robes 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:17.520 here that he can pull it up, and yeah, it's 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.320 just crystal organs under crystal skin, and he can observe 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.840 every little detail going on in digestion. So in some 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.440 versions of the story, the first plant he was said 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.120 to taste was a green leaf, which once he put 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:33.800 it in his mouth and swallowed it, it went on 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.760 a grand tour of his insides, cleaning up everything along 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.159 the way, and again crystal stomach, so he gets to 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:40.760 watch it go. 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.520 Okay, So it's kind of like a dryer sheet or something. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.959 Yeah, yeah, I guess. This particular plant was referred to 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:54.879 as cha, which means to inspect, which eventually got confused 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.280 in later tellings with cha, which is the exact same 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:03.679 phonetic sound but a different Chinese character. So the story 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:08.639 becomes later on that Shinong was poisoning himself upwards of 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.840 seventy times a day, testing out the world's plants to 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.160 determine which ones we could use for various purposes, and 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.280 if something got on top of him he got some 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.080 poison going around in his system, he would turn to 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.240 the cleansing power of tea to detoxify himself. 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.360 Oh so, by the way, you should not derive actual 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.040 use value from that. But yeah, so in this version 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.200 of the story, T is like a universal antidote, right. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.320 And my understanding too is that older versions of the 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:42.080 story are not referring to T, but it becomes Tea 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:47.639 and later tellings of the story though this eventually catches 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.399 up with him. I was reading in that book that 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.880 one day he is said to have tried a yellow flower, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.320 and upon trying the yellow flower, it broke his intestines 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:03.440 into pieces. He sees this through his stomach, his crystal stomach. 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.800 This occurs just the moment he swallows it, and he's 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:09.720 quickly trying to, you know, get himself some tea so 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.160 he can cleanse everything up, but it is too late. 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:16.520 He dies, and the plant that does this to him 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.040 becomes known as the intestine breaking weed. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.359 That is brutal in so many ways, especially because it 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:29.680 imagines the intestines as brittle rather than elastic. I mean, 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.320 I guess you could think of them that way. 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.840 Well again, it makes me personally think of Shinong's crystal 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.000 organs as being like glass. And then the shattering is 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:44.520 kind of like when a cartoon character bites on something 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.440 that's too hard, and their teeth do that cartoon shattering thing. 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.080 That's what I picture in my mind happening to Shinong 0:21:50.160 --> 0:22:05.440 here portion on. Yeah. Now there's a book, Shinong's Herbal Classic, 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.160 a later Han dynasty book that includes a great deal 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.040 of knowledge related to various botanical substances, and this book 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:17.160 is attributed to Shinong, likely based on oral traditions. It 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.160 includes a passage on tea, telling us that it's bitter 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.800 and share some details about when, how and where it 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.000 grows best. But as Laura C. Martin points out in 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.560 a History of Ta, references to T in this book 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.199 were probably not original to it, as the character for 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.600 Ta itself didn't come into usage until seventh century. But 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.480 more on the timeline of tea in a bit, because 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.520 we're still for now in the mythic. 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:45.800 Timeline, okay, But talking about this book attributed to Shinong, 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.439 the idea is that probably there were earlier versions of 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:52.000 the book that did not have the tea passages, and 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.360 in recopying through the year's tea passages were inserted by 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.760 some editor or copyist exactly. 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.600 Yes, Now, there are a couple of other tea related 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:04.160 myths here. This is one that Young Haan Turner point out. 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:08.120 It's a creation myth of the Dang ethnic people known 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:12.879 outside of China as the Palolang people in Unan Province. 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.600 And it's said that in this creation myth, one hundred 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.000 and two tea leaves went around and around in the 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.639 air for thirty thousand years and then transformed into fifty 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.320 one young men and fifty one young women. That's the 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.200 beginning of humanity. Now there's another one. This is a 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:33.479 This is a tea myth that largely emerges from India 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:37.040 rather than China. As Martin points out, the early history 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.840 of tea centers around China. But the plant is indigenous 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.240 to the Assam region of India in addition to southwestern China. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:46.639 Yet it seems that it was a little known or 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.800 used in India prior to the sixth century. 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.280 Seat and if you don't know where it is, Assam 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:56.520 is located in northeastern India. So the area of origin 0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:59.879 for the tea plant, we think is basically southwestern China 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:01.480 northeastern India. 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:05.440 Yeah. Yeah, though it does seem like it was better 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:10.679 known in China as opposed to India. But of course 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.600 we see a fair amount of cultural exchange between India 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.560 and China, and of course the most famous example of 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:22.120 this is of course Buddhism, and this particular story does 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.880 involve Buddhism as well. It's the story of Bodhidharma, who 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:31.120 was a fifth century semi legendary Indian prince who, much 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:33.919 like the Buddha himself a thousand years earlier, came to 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.600 see the emptiness of wealth and abandoned all of it 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:40.120 in the quest for enlightenment. He became a Buddhist monk, 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.080 and after many years of study, he travels to China 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:47.680 to reintroduce Buddhism and found Buddhism had been introduced into 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:50.000 China previously, but this most period where maybe it was 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:52.879 waning a bit, and he said to end up becoming 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:56.880 the founder of Chan Buddhism in the process. But while 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.200 he's in China, after visiting the emperor on this trip, 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:02.040 he retreated. He eats to a shovelin temple and here 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:07.760 he begins a long period of devoted meditation and asceticism. 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:10.879 So depending on the tail, and again there are different 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:14.440 versions with this. With most of these stories, he either 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:17.760 stares at a wall for nine years in meditation, or 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:20.520 he gives up sleep for nine years so that he 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:24.840 can really double down on his meditation. In one version 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:27.679 of this story, he grows so sleepy that he reaches 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:29.800 out and he grabs a leaf, like a random leaf, 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:31.720 and he just shoves it in his mouth to chew 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.080 it as a way to perk himself up. And his 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.879 luck would have it, this plant is tee and it 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.639 really does perk him up because it we'll discuss it 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:43.159 a bit, it contains a stimulant. There's another version of 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:46.359 this tale, and this one I got in trouble for 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:49.640 sharing at the Venner table in my post research excitement. 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:53.399 But in this other version, he's getting sleepy and he 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.560 pulls off his own eyelids because it's like, oh, heavy eyelids, 0:25:57.560 --> 0:25:59.520 they keep shutting. I'm trying to meditate, but I keep 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:02.399 falling asleep. So he just pulls the eyelids off, throws 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:06.000 them on the ground, and then a tea plant grows 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:11.280 from where the eyelids fall. So, in either case, according 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:16.399 to this legendary account, he discovers tea and passes it 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:19.560 on to the other monks to assist them in their meditation. 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:22.280 All right, So there's just a taste of some of 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:26.960 the mythological stories involving the origin of ta, this spectacular 0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:31.880 plant that is either discovered or perhaps even created out 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:35.320 of some sort of inspired inside by a legendary or 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:36.840 semi legendary individual. 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:41.000 Now, when it comes to the T plant itself, there 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:42.840 were a few things that I actually did not know 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:45.160 until recently. I don't know if I should be embarrassed 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:47.199 about not knowing these, but I was just pretty much 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:50.440 in the dark about tea. But one thing I discovered 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.560 was that, apart from the issue of things being called 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:57.199 tea just actually being an infusion of anything, even when 0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:01.240 you're talking about the T plant itself. Previously thought that 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:04.320 the main varieties of tea you hear about, like green 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:08.120 tea and black tea or maybe oolong tea, were from 0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:12.200 different plants. But actually these are all from the same 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:14.800 plant as far as I can tell. They're just different 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:17.320 preparation and curing methods. Correct. 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:22.680 Yeah, yeah, they're essentially we're talking about one single species 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:28.480 of plant. Camellia senensuss Camellia sinensus is an evergreen shrub 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:31.919 or tree, and you know Asterix there, we'll get to 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:36.320 that that produces small white petaled flowers. In the wild, 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:41.600 it will eventually reach tree size, but in situations where 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.240 it's been cultivated, generally they're kept at a shrub size 0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:48.720 via pruning. They're typically kept at like a meter or 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.920 three feet in height, as that's an ideal height for picking. 0:27:53.080 --> 0:27:55.680 Yeah, and so you have these top layers of leaves 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:57.920 that come out, and I think they refer to those 0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:01.959 as flushes, like the leaves keep protruding and then the 0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:03.679 top young leaves are harvested. 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:08.000 Yeah, and while we're essentially talking about one species, there 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:11.560 are two varieties. There's Camillias Andensus. This is the one 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:14.840 that's indigenous to western Yunnan in China. And then there's 0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:20.200 a variety of that Camillia Senensus issamica. This is indigenous 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.040 to the Assam region of India as well as parts 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:28.680 of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and southern China. Now, 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:32.280 these two varieties they cross pollinate easily, so they are 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:36.200 also blends of the two. But Martin stresses that they're 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:39.200 actually not that different in taste either. So the varying 0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:43.360 tastes and colors of different teas they stem from the 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:45.880 way we process them, whether you're talking about black or 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.840 green oolong, et cetera. And so either variety of tea 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:54.800 leaf processed the same way will basically be similar. But 0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:57.840 at the same time, we don't want to discount traditions 0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:01.320 surrounding particular teas. It's one of those things. It's kind 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:03.360 of like, you know, wine tastes or any kind of 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:07.800 like cultural food tradition. There's a lot tied up in 0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:10.840 knowing where something comes from as well, and some of 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:16.120 that translates into the taste for the average consumer. Sometimes 0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:20.880 it's something that translates into the connoisseur's taste experience, and 0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:23.320 sometimes you're getting into an area where yes, you're being 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:29.080 primed that this particular I don't know, you know, this 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.680 wine stems from this vintage versus this vintage, this winery 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:34.760 versus this winery, etc. Yeah. 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:36.320 Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.280 different foods that maybe you actually couldn't tell the difference 0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:43.680 in a blind taste test. But then again, it might 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:47.240 be cool to enjoy an authentic version of something knowing 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:49.880 the history behind it, like knowing where it comes from 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:52.000 and being able to think about that and so forth. 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:56.080 Exactly so in the wild, tea plants are generally going 0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:59.360 to thrive in an open woodland area or on the 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:02.920 edge of the woodlands where they can benefit from the 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:07.840 shade of larger trees. As such, when cultivating tea plants, 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:12.480 they're generally grown alongside shade trees. These, as Martin points out, 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:16.000 not only provide shade, but also it keeps weeds away 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:19.800 and enriches the soil and generally the leaves and the 0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:23.680 buds or what are harvested fresh leaves generally contain about 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:25.000 four percent caffeine. 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:29.080 I'm reading, and I was wondering about this because I 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:32.640 had read that it is maybe we can get more 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:34.680 into this when we do some of the cultural history. 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:38.800 But I have read that tea leaves were traditionally treated 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.120 as a food plant in China, more so than a 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:46.440 beverage plant, and the beverage stage came later. And so 0:30:46.520 --> 0:30:50.040 apparently you can eat tea leaves. You can just prepare 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:52.600 them like a green and chew them up and eat them. 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:55.719 People do this sometimes and it's fine, though you need 0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:57.920 to be careful about how much you eat, obviously, because 0:30:57.920 --> 0:30:59.200 you don't want to overdose yourself. 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.959 On caffeine right right, because most of us don't have 0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:05.280 crystal clear guts that we can look at and to 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:09.040 determine what's happening, you know, by the moment. But yeah, 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:11.560 that'll be fun to get into in a subsequent episode. 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:16.400 The history of tea as a beverage is also the 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:29.160 history of a food, so yeah, I'm looking forward to that. 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.120 But coming back to the caffeine, this is a question 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.680 that applies of course to tea, but also to other 0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:39.360 caffeinated beverages, or at least ones that have a natural origin, 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:43.320 Like why is there caffeine in the leaf? Like what 0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:47.560 is there? Well, why is that substance that, for us 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:51.440 humans is a stimulant that kind of manipulates us as 0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:54.080 a consumer of the plant, Like why is it even there? 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:57.720 To begin with great question, So as a jumping off 0:31:57.720 --> 0:32:00.719 point to answer this, I want to refer to an 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:03.640 article I was reading on the subject by previous show 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:07.480 guest Carl Zimmer, who is one of our favorite science writers. 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:10.000 He's been a guest on the podcast before. Maybe we'll 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:12.080 get him back again someday, but he came on to 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.120 talk about his book on genes and heredity called She 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:17.960 Has Her Mother's Laugh, which is a fantastic book. And 0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:20.160 so Carl Zimmer had an article in twenty fourteen in 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:22.440 The New York Times called how Caffeine Evolved to help 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:26.360 plants survive and help people wake up? And he begins 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:29.480 by pointing out some rough stats about the popularity and 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:33.600 power of coffee and caffeine, saying the world consumes roughly 0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:37.040 twenty six thousand cups of coffee per second. That's a lot. 0:32:37.920 --> 0:32:42.400 That caffeine is probably the most widely used psychoactive substance 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.080 in the world. But there's an interesting thing about caffeine, 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:50.520 which is that it has a number of different associated 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:54.320 plants that it comes from. So, for example, there are 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:57.280 coffee beans. Coffee Beans are the seeds of a genus 0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:02.680 of flowering plant called Caffea or Coffea in the family rubiaishi. 0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:06.440 These plants are native to tropical Africa and tropical Asia. 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:09.080 There is of course tea. Tea again is made from 0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:12.040 the leaves of the evergreen shrub Camillias and ensus, which 0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:15.800 is native to East Asia. There's mate made from the 0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.360 urbamate plant, which is a holly shrub native to South 0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:25.720 America scientific name Ilex paraguariensis. And then you've even got chocolate. 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:29.600 Chocolate also contains caffeine. Chocolate's made from the seeds of 0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:33.840 the cacao tree or theobroma cacao. Theobroma, by the way, 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:39.200 means food of the gods. Theo roma and historically was 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:42.320 not always used as an ingredient in sweets and desserts. 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:44.960 The main way we in the United States consume it today. 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:48.840 It was often consumed as a bitter, hot, or cold beverage, 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:51.560 kind of similar to how we consume coffee, which of 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:53.840 course would have carried a punch of caffeine, and chocolate 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:54.840 does have caffeine. 0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:59.040 I think our Invention episode where we talk to Jeff 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:04.680 Beach Bomberry, we talked a little bit about ancient recipes 0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:06.000 for hot chocolate. 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:09.640 Essentially, But it's kind of interesting to look at this 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:14.960 geographic distribution and say, how do all of these different 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:19.720 plants that are not closely related to one another independently 0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:24.440 make this same compound. We know why humans like caffeine, 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:27.319 but what does caffeine do for the plants, and how 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.200 did all these diverse different species evolve to make it? 0:34:30.600 --> 0:34:30.839 Well. 0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:33.280 This article looks at a study published in the journal 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:37.640 Science in twenty fourteen, where researchers detailed an effort to 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:41.279 sequence the genome of a species of coffee plant responsible 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:44.400 for many of the world's coffee beans. This remember, coffee 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:47.960 comes from the genus Coffea or coffea, and this is 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:53.799 Coffea canaphora. The study is by France. Oh, I do 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:58.560 not know how to pronounce this last name, Deneud is 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:02.200 how the name is spelled at all, and the title 0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:05.440 is the coffee genome provides insight into the convergent evolution 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:09.360 of caffeine biosynthesis. Again, that's in the journal Science twenty fourteen. 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.760 So one thing this study looked at is how caffeine 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:16.160 is actually synthesized in coffee plants. And it turns out 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:20.279 it is a multi stage transformation of molecule that it 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:24.480 begins with a compound called xanthozine, and the coffee plant 0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:28.759 manufactures several enzymes that act on this compound. So one 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:32.240 enzyme removes an arm of the molecule, another enzyme adds 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.320 a new arm, Two more enzymes come in and add 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:39.120 two more clusters of atoms, and after all these transformations, 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:43.800 you finally have transformed xanthezine into caffeine, and the enzymes 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:48.280 involved in this multi step transformation are called in methyl transferases. 0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:52.320 They are found in all plants, and they do generally 0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:56.680 this sort of work, building specific compounds, many of which 0:35:56.760 --> 0:36:02.040 plants use to defend themselves against predator or parasites. And 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.600 one example of a compound manufactured with the help of 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:09.840 in methyl transferases that zimbercites in the article is salicylic acid, 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.360 which is a compound produced by willow trees, which actually 0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:16.160 turns out to be a potent pain reliever in animals 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:20.640 like us. Salicilic acid is the chemical basis for aspirin. 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:27.040 But what about the enzymes that manufacture caffeine specifically in coffee. Well, 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:30.680 the authors determine that some time ago, in the evolution 0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:33.720 of the coffee plant, a gene for creating one type 0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:38.480 of in methyl transfer enzyme underwent a series of mutations 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:42.799 to produce a variety of enzymes which would eventually create caffeine. 0:36:43.360 --> 0:36:45.680 And so one of the co authors is quoted in 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:49.960 Carl Zimber's articles. This is by Victor A. Albert saying 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:52.880 they're all descendants of a common ancestor enzyme that started 0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:57.160 screwing around with xanthezene compounds, So the plants are just 0:36:57.239 --> 0:36:59.759 kind of like doing all these little variations on this 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:04.759 originator molecule and producing these derivative molecules that in many 0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:09.719 cases are physiologically active or psychoactive on animals. And it 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:13.360 turns out scientists had already discovered that caffeine was created 0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:17.520 by the action of in methyl transferrass in cocaw trees 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:22.600 and in the tea plant, so similar molecular frameworks are 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:26.439 going on within coffee plants, within the tree that makes 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.799 chocolate or cocow, and within tea plants. However, the researchers 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:35.520 also found that the enzymes for making caffeine in these 0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:38.600 different plants did not all evolve from the same ancestors. 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:42.440 So this would be a case of convergent evolution, different 0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:45.600 branches on the tree of life evolving the same solution, 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:49.880 the same phenotype independently. So you can think of a 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:54.359 million different examples of this. One is wings. Birds and 0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:58.800 bees both evolved flapping wings independently for flight. They didn't 0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:02.200 get them from a common ancestor that had wings. They 0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:05.160 know their last common ancestor did not have wings, and 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:09.560 they independently, separately came up with the same solution. Now, 0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:12.600 when you see convergent evolution, you see different streams of 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:16.000 evolution converging on the same trait or the same solution 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:19.200 to an environmental problem. It's usually a sign that that 0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:22.880 trait or solution is pretty good. It's a powerful adaptation, 0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:26.160 and there's a big survival and reproduction payoff. So it 0:38:26.200 --> 0:38:29.560 would seem, based on the evidence of convergent evolution, that 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:33.360 producing caffeine is definitely good for something for the plants. 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:36.000 So what is it really good for. Well, there are 0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:38.799 a few things we can talk about. One is activity 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:43.719 in poisoning or deterring predation by insects. So, like so 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:47.160 many of the plant based compounds that humans ingest on 0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:51.319 purpose for their psychoactive properties, caffeine seems to be at 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:55.920 least in part useful for deterring predation by insects. Insects 0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:58.680 would of course naturally like to eat the leaves and 0:38:58.760 --> 0:39:01.759 the seeds of the cope plant, but high levels of 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.120 caffeine are toxic to them, and this relationship can be 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.879 seen further in the fact that the fruit fly Drosophila 0:39:09.520 --> 0:39:14.480 drosophala has the ability to taste the presence of certain compounds. 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:16.920 I was reading about how they have an array of 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:21.160 at least sixty eight known These are called seven transmembrane 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:27.840 goostatory receptors or goustatory receptors are grs and goustatory meaning taste. 0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:31.319 So these goustatory receptors allow the fly to sense the 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:34.239 presence of compounds that could kill it or harm it 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:39.400 and avoid eating them. Caffeine is one of those compounds. 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.280 Fruit Flies appear to have a suite of receptors, including 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:45.880 one called g R sixty six A, that work together 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.560 to sense the presence of caffeine in whatever they're eating 0:39:49.920 --> 0:39:53.600 and allow an avoidance response to take over. Now, I 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.400 think it's interesting to put that together with the fact 0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:02.000 that in the human experience, most alkaloids taste. Bitter. Alkaloids 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:06.480 are a broad class of nitrogen bearing organic compounds that 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:11.240 plants make, many of which have physiological effects on humans 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:14.440 and other animals, effects ranging from you know, all your 0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:18.399 standard types of poisoning and death to psychoactive effects such 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:22.760 as the stimulant effect of caffeine. So bitter taste often 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:25.719 causes animals to reject a food source. So I think 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.520 it's kind of reasonable to put all this together in 0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:32.719 wonder if the sensation of bitterness when ingesting plants rich 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:37.359 in alkaloids is perhaps a protective response that tells us 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:40.680 to stop consuming these plants and reject them, similar in 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:43.120 effect to the way that a fruitfly has the ability 0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:47.480 to taste and reject caffeine, though with a different evolutionary backstory. 0:40:47.880 --> 0:40:49.560 Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, it makes me 0:40:49.640 --> 0:40:52.839 think of, you know, the obvious of example of say 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:55.880 a child being introduced to coffee and finding it disgusting 0:40:56.960 --> 0:41:00.759 because it is bitter. And also we have to think 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.680 about the fact that that the chocolate unsweeten has a 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.000 very bitter taste to it as well, though of course 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:09.600 in both cases coffee and chocolate, there is of course 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:13.000 a process involved here we're not going to really get 0:41:13.040 --> 0:41:17.719 into with coffee and chocolate between plant and even the 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.480 unsweetened food product, but that's something we can come back 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:23.800 to in the future. I love to do something on chocolate, 0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:24.640 say in the future. 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:28.279 Absolutely, And yeah, it's interesting to think about the complex 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:31.800 human reaction or response to bitterness that it seems bitterness 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:37.120 is probably primarily biologically relevant in getting us to reject foods. 0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:39.080 You know, it's like this has something in it that 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:40.680 I don't want to get too much of, So I 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:42.560 probably don't want to eat too much of this. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:48.560 Yeah. So many of the naturally occurring pesticides that we consume, Yeah, 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:51.120 they have some sort of a strong flavor that would 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:54.120 tend to convince most humans to avoid them, certainly, and 0:41:54.520 --> 0:41:56.520 in many of the cases where there are various spices, 0:41:56.800 --> 0:42:00.399 avoid them in larger quantities than we traditionally use them. 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:02.799 And yet we can really get a taste for them. 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.839 I mean, I like the bitter taste of coffee and 0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:10.120 of chocolate and of tea and so forth. It might 0:42:10.200 --> 0:42:12.520 have to do with like it's a level of bitterness 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.279 that doesn't reach kind of a threshold which you would 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:19.280 find it disgusting, like it's like below the bar for rejection. 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:21.279 Or it could be a totally it could be a 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:24.880 learned response. I mean maybe naturally people don't like bitter 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:27.680 stuff in any quantity, but if culturally they learn to 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:30.920 appreciate it, I don't know, maybe maybe that's what's making 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:32.080 the difference there. 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:35.440 Oh well, I mean in cocktail culture, for example, you 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:38.840 have a you know, a whole spectrum of bitter drinks. 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:41.520 You know, sometimes you're just adding a little bitter taste 0:42:41.600 --> 0:42:46.480 via bitters in many cases, to to offset sweetness and 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:50.759 give you a certain flavor profile. But some people go 0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:54.919 especially hard for those those bitter drinks. They're like, I've 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.719 never tried one of these, but you have these recipes 0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:01.720 floating around for mixed drinks that contain like multiple bitter 0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:04.680 components to try and create like some sort of uber 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:09.880 bitter concoction, which is not for me, but I assume 0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:12.719 it's for some people who have developed a taste for 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:14.360 all of those bitter components. 0:43:14.480 --> 0:43:16.520 Well, I mean, I do think about how many of 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:20.680 the bitter food almost all of the really enjoyable bitter 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:23.319 foods and beverages I can think of or psychoactive in 0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:24.960 one way or another. I mean, I guess not like 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:27.560 you know, bitter greens or something. You know, I like 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:30.719 greens that can be bitter, but I think of coffee, 0:43:30.760 --> 0:43:34.040 which has caffeine. I think of chocolate, which has caffeine. 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.160 I think of tea, which has caffeine. Or I think 0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:38.920 of alcoholic beverages that are bitter, like you know, like 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:40.640 hoppy beers and so forth. 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:43.280 Yeah, so it's almost like on some level, our bodies 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:47.240 saying this tastes bad, but something good is happening. 0:43:47.480 --> 0:44:01.040 Yeah, but okay, So caffeine, one of it rolls within 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.640 a plant might be to deter insects or other animals, 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:06.400 maybe from eating the leaves of the plant. 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:09.400 They got enough caffeine in there. One way or another, 0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:12.360 the toxicity of the caffeine will drive the animal away. 0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:16.040 Another interesting idea that Zimmer raises in this article is 0:44:16.040 --> 0:44:20.560 that caffeine in coffee plants is suspected to work also 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:25.360 by inhibiting the growth and germination of other plants. He 0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:29.279 writes that when coffee leaves die and fall off of 0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:32.080 a coffee plant, they fall down to the soil below. 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:36.319 The caffeine content seeps into the earth and interferes with 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:39.480 the ability of other plant species in the soil nearby 0:44:39.560 --> 0:44:43.480 to germinate. So this helps limit competition for soil resources 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:47.080 and sunlight in the area. Now, I didn't find anything 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:49.880 specifically about whether or not that's true with tea plants 0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:52.520 as well, but it could also be the case if 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:55.759 it works for the coffee plant. But one thing where 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:59.520 I did find a parallel between how they think caffeine 0:44:59.560 --> 0:45:02.439 is working in coffee plants and tea plants is its 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:05.480 role in pollination. I thought this was the most interesting 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.800 of all. So, in addition to deterring insect or animal 0:45:08.800 --> 0:45:14.280 predation and perhaps limiting competition from nearby plants, the psychoactive 0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:18.880 and drug like properties of caffeine on animals might be 0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:23.879 not only an unintended byproduct or side effect of their 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:27.799 physiological activity as a deterrent. They might actually be in 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.520 part the point of the compound, or at least one 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:32.960 of the points of the compound, and it would work 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:37.800 like this So coffee and flowering plants that produce caffeine 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:42.279 in their leaves also produce lower doses of caffeine in 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:47.520 their nectar. Now, plants make nectar as a food for 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:52.240 insects as an incentive for insects to spread their pollen. 0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:55.479 So the insect gets sugar from the plant, it gets 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.799 a meal, and the plant gets help with reproduction and 0:45:58.840 --> 0:46:02.839 dispersal when returning it's help spreading its genetic material. Now 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:06.280 here's the really interesting thing. Research has shown that when 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:11.080 insects feed on plant nectar containing low doses of caffeine, 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:15.719 they seem to become more disposed to remember the scent 0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:19.960 of the flower where they consumed that nectar, and researchers 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.040 believe this may cause the insect to return to that 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:27.839 flower more often and thus spread its pollen more effectively. 0:46:28.640 --> 0:46:31.680 So maybe out of just one compound, this one molecule 0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:34.640 that the plant creates, it can be getting multiple completely 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:37.680 different effects depending on the dosage in the different part 0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:41.200 of the plant. So maybe higher levels in the leaves 0:46:41.239 --> 0:46:44.960 will deter insects from trying to eat the leaves, but 0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:47.440 lower levels in the nectar will be more like a 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:52.040 cup of coffee for the insect, which boosts the insect's 0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:56.240 memory and allows it to return to the same plant 0:46:56.360 --> 0:47:00.560 more frequently and spread that plant's genetic material. Toxic and 0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:04.000 high concentration, but beneficial to some types of brain function 0:47:04.400 --> 0:47:07.520 at lower doses. And it's funny that caffeine has the 0:47:07.520 --> 0:47:09.400 same dual effect on humans. I mean, if you have 0:47:09.440 --> 0:47:11.399 too much of it, it will kill you. But if 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:14.160 you have these low doses of it that people consume 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:16.920 in beverages and stuff, people use it directly as a 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:19.080 stimulant to improve their brain function. 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:23.480 Yeah, I mean, coming back to Shinong, the mythical story here, 0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:29.400 it's basically an individual god figuring out to what degree 0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:34.239 one should consume the world of poisons around us, how 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:38.000 much of this poison is appropriate for desired outcome, and 0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:40.000 then which poisons should we not mess with at all? 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:43.560 Exactly? So I found this so interesting. But anyway, this 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:45.880 was all about the coffee plant. I was trying to 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:48.320 find is the same thing true of the T plant, 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:51.359 And I did, in fact find. A study from just 0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:53.359 a couple of years ago is from twenty twenty one 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:56.759 published in the Journal of Insect Physiology. It was by 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:00.600 Gwen Gong at All and it was called Laurel T 0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:06.319 polyphenols can improve honeybee memory retention and olfactory sensitivity. So 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:09.200 the background on the study is to read from their 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:13.879 abstract quote. Animal pollinated plants face a common problem how 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:20.080 their defensive anti herbivore compounds may impair or alter pollinator behavior. 0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:25.239 Evolution has tailored multiple solutions, which largely involve pollinator tolerance 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:28.640 or manipulation to the benefit of the plant, not the 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:32.080 removal of these compounds from pollen or nectar. The T 0:48:32.320 --> 0:48:36.600 plant Camilli s. Senensis is famous for the caffeine and 0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:41.320 T polyphenols that it produces in its leaves. However, these 0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:45.360 compounds are also found in its nectar, which honeybees readily collect. 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.279 So to summarize here, the authors tested the effects of 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:51.239 these two different products of the tea plant, of the 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:55.440 caffeine and the T polyphenols, and they tested it on 0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:58.440 the forging behavior of honeybees. And what they say they 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:02.520 found is that honeybees preferred simulated nectar from a feeder 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.960 when it contained T polyphenols over a control feeder that 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:10.240 did not contain them. And they also found that bees 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.680 that were fed on a feeder laced with caffeine showed 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:18.600 small improvements in learning. Both caffeine and T polyphenols increased 0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:22.839 memory retention and showed influences on other behaviors as well, 0:49:22.880 --> 0:49:26.480 such as response to alarm pheromones. So it seems that 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.839 the T plant may well be adapted to give pollinating 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:33.840 insects small doses of caffeine and T polyphenols for a reason. 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:37.120 It could mean, among other things, that the pollinating insects 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:40.320 are more likely to keep returning to the same plant 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:43.960 and spreading its genetic material. And I thought this was 0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:46.240 so interesting. So if this is in fact the case, 0:49:47.040 --> 0:49:51.480 it's a more complex relationship than I usually imagine between 0:49:51.640 --> 0:49:56.360 plants and the alkaloids that they manufacture and the animals 0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:58.799 that they target, because I usually think of the relationship 0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:01.200 as a pretty simple one way way interaction, like the 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:06.120 plant alkaloid causes some kind of negative physiological response or 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:09.240 reaction in the animal, and then the animal is deterred 0:50:09.239 --> 0:50:12.480 from eating the plant again, or the animal is driven 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:17.000 to evolve like gustatory receptors or taste that make the 0:50:17.040 --> 0:50:19.920 plant taste nasty from the first spite, because you know, 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:23.279 it's ancestors that didn't have that may have died. But 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.680 this is a more complex implied relationship. I don't know 0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:29.080 exactly what to compare it to. I mean, it's almost 0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:32.440 like the cultivating of an analog of an addiction, but 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:36.120 one with I don't know, survival benefits for the bee 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:39.120 as well, because it allows them to keep returning to 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:39.840 a food source. 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:42.920 So before we got into all this here, if I 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.120 were put to the test, I would have just said, well, 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.719 caffeine implants is just about keeping some things from eating them, 0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:52.920 and we've managed to manipulate that situation for our own benefit. 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:55.200 But yeah, it sounds like the reality is a lot 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:59.080 more complicated. Of course, you can't really think about purpose 0:50:59.239 --> 0:51:02.880 and design and desire in the literal sense when it 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:05.440 comes to the evolution of something like this in various 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:09.319 plant species. But I am kind of reminded of how 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:12.880 some products in the human world will end up with 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:15.600 more than one purpose, Like, for instance, I think of 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:18.520 bag bomb. Have you ever used bag bomb or seen 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:19.719 a container of bag bomb? 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:21.040 I don't think so. Explain. 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:24.719 It's like a little greenkin and I believe it dates 0:51:24.719 --> 0:51:27.400 back to her about eighteen ninety nine, and it was 0:51:27.480 --> 0:51:31.200 it's a salve to put on a cow's udders after milking. 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.960 But people started using it because they realized that, hey, 0:51:35.000 --> 0:51:37.480 you can put this on dry cracked skin. And so 0:51:39.000 --> 0:51:40.520 it's one of these things where it ended up being 0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:44.120 there's this whole additional application of the product, an entire 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:47.880 different consumer base that kind of sprang out of it. 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:51.000 It's more complicated, obviously with the case with caffeine and plants, 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.120 but it's almost it almost feels like that where there 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:58.160 may be one purpose that's kind of driving the evolution 0:51:58.239 --> 0:52:00.680 of this, but then this other use, the other way 0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:06.600 that it can enhance the survivability of the plant emerges 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:09.080 as well, and so you have these sort of dual 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:10.680 forces driving it at that point. 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:16.360 Oh yeah, Evolution loves to repurpose pre existing morphologies, So 0:52:16.480 --> 0:52:20.000 like a structure or a chemical capacity, or something that 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:23.879 evolved initially for one reason can always be repurposed when 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:27.399 a new opportunity presents itself. Yeah, and I don't know 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:29.560 specifically what the order would have been in any of 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:33.160 these cases, whether you're talking about coffee plants or tea plants, 0:52:33.360 --> 0:52:36.759 but you can imagine a compound. Initially, there is evolutionary 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:40.279 pressure favoring the enzymes to produce that compound because it 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:43.000 I don't know, because it deters predation by animals, or 0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.280 because it limits competition when the leaves fall into the soil. 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:49.920 And then later something like this relationship with pollinators emerges 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:51.799 using the same compound. 0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:55.280 And then eventually this relationship with human beings who start 0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:58.759 cultivating it. So it's fascinating to think about all of 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.879 these relationships. All Right, we're gonna go ahead and wrap 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:05.080 up this episode, but we'll be back in the next 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:09.040 episode with more discussion of tea. In the meantime, of course, 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:10.640 we'd love to hear from everyone out there. You might 0:53:10.680 --> 0:53:13.279 be thinking to yourself, well, I have some tidbit I 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:15.920 want to share about tea, but surely Robert and Joe 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:17.400 don't want to hear it. No, we want to hear 0:53:17.440 --> 0:53:20.239 it right in. We want to know about your individual 0:53:20.840 --> 0:53:26.920 or cultural differences and appetite for tea. If there are 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:29.879 other myths or legends or folk tales that you've heard 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:33.239 about about the origins of tea, write in. We would 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:35.600 love to hear from you. In the meantime, will remind 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.239 you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a 0:53:38.320 --> 0:53:41.440 science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 0:53:41.480 --> 0:53:44.479 Mondays we do listener mail. That's that's when we will 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.880 read the messages that come in about these episodes. On 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:50.680 Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode, 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:53.799 and then on Fridays it's Weird House Cinema time. That's 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:56.319 when we set aside most serious concerns and just talk 0:53:56.400 --> 0:53:57.440 about a strange film. 0:53:57.760 --> 0:54:01.319 Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Pauseway. If you 0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:03.360 would like to get in touch with us with feedback 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:05.760 on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:07.799 for the future, or just to say hello, you can 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:10.680 email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:17.920 dot com. 0:54:19.160 --> 0:54:22.080 Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:54:22.200 --> 0:54:26.000 more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:41.440 or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.