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Speaker 1: Hey you, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 2: and it's Saturday. We're heading into the vault for a

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Speaker 2: classic episode of the show. This one originally aired on

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Speaker 2: February second, twenty twenty three. This is part one of

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Speaker 2: our series on Tea Hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 1: The first cup caresses my dry lips and throat. The

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Speaker 1: second shatters the walls of my lonely sadness. The third

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Speaker 1: searches the dry rivulets of my soul to find the

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Speaker 1: stories of five thousand scrolls. With the fourth, the pain

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Speaker 1: of life's grievances evaporates through my pores. The fifth relaxes

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Speaker 1: my muscles and bones become light. With the sixth, I

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Speaker 1: find the path that leads to the immortal ancestors. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the seventh cup, better not take it. If I had it,

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Speaker 1: the only feeling is the fresh en blowing through my

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Speaker 1: wings as I make my way to Pung Lai.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormack, and today we're going to begin

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Speaker 2: a series on tea. Yes, t the beverage and the

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Speaker 2: plant that it comes from. Now, Rob, you began today's

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Speaker 2: episode by reading a Is this a poem or a song?

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Speaker 1: This is a poem by Lu Toong from the Tang

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Speaker 1: dynasty titled Seven Bowls of Tea, and it's it's pretty

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Speaker 1: widely cited. I ran across various like tea blogs talking

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Speaker 1: about it and sometimes saying that this is overly sited

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Speaker 1: in the literature of tea, especially in the West, and

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Speaker 1: I think with good reason, because it's it's amazing. It

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Speaker 1: captures this just intense enthusiasm for tea. And also it's

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Speaker 1: essentially about a man drinking way too much tea during

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Speaker 1: the course of the day that brings him to the

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Speaker 1: to the very brink of like blinking out of physical

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Speaker 1: reality and going to toping lie the mystical mountain where

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Speaker 1: you have fantastic creatures and immortal beings.

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Speaker 2: So you don't want to do the seventh cup because

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Speaker 2: that will just essentially you will leave your body in

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Speaker 2: the place where you currently reside.

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Speaker 1: Right, But it's not it doesn't seem to be a

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Speaker 1: case where you have to worry about like crashing with

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Speaker 1: that seventh cup. It's just the seventh cup is one

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Speaker 1: pleasure beyond that which you should grant yourself. You should.

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Speaker 1: You have to show restraint because you still have stuff

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Speaker 1: to do here in the mortal realm.

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Speaker 2: Well, I like the way that the poem escalates because

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Speaker 2: at the beginning it's more just about the like the

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Speaker 2: first line is about the sensory experience, caresses, dry lips

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Speaker 2: and throat. It's it's happening in the mouth. And then

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Speaker 2: after that it's like mood, you know, shatters the walls

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Speaker 2: of my lonely sadness. That's mood stuff. That's level two.

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Speaker 2: But beyond that, you're like talking about communing with other beings,

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Speaker 2: the path that leads to the immortal ancestors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets very spiritual towards the end, transformative.

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Speaker 2: Even I've never gone six cups in on caffeinated tea,

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Speaker 2: but I don't doubt it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I my wife and I probably have, but only

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Speaker 1: through re steeps. We're big into picking out a good

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Speaker 1: tea that you can resteep several times. So I could

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Speaker 1: probably write a similar poem about, like, you know, steeps

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Speaker 1: one through four or five on a particular tea that

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Speaker 1: I like, because sometimes you get get the you get

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Speaker 1: an interesting tea, and it changes like cup. Cup one

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Speaker 1: might actually not be the best cup, and it's your

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Speaker 1: second or third steep where things maybe become a little

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Speaker 1: more nuanced, a little less sharp. I found that to

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Speaker 1: be the case with some of the poorer teas that

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Speaker 1: I really like.

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Speaker 2: I assume does the caffeine content become less powerful as

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Speaker 2: you go through multiple steeps.

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Speaker 1: That is my understanding, and I believe that is my experience,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons I tell myself that

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Speaker 1: it's okay to have so many cups of tea during

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Speaker 1: the course of an afternoon because I'm getting decreased returns

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Speaker 1: on the cup from a caffeine standpoint. But yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: touched on tea in the past, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: we've ever done a proper deep dive on this most

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Speaker 1: splendid beverage, not just splendid, but really one of the

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Speaker 1: most popular beverages in the world. You could probably make

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Speaker 1: a case for it being the most popular. There's a

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Speaker 1: great deal of variety to how it's cultivated, prepared, brewed,

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Speaker 1: and consumed, and yeah, there's no denying its appeal. And

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Speaker 1: it's importance weaves in and out of global history, various cultures.

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Speaker 1: It factors into mythology, literature, politics, and much much more.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And to clarify something here, I guess we should

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Speaker 2: do this at the beginning. There's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: confusion in English. I don't know if it's like this

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Speaker 2: in other languages, but at least in English. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of things that we call tea that are

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Speaker 2: not made with the tea plant. So we use the

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Speaker 2: word tea as like a generic synonym basically for an infusion.

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Speaker 2: Anytime you take a substance, herbal or otherwise, and you

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Speaker 2: expose it to hot water in order to extract some

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Speaker 2: kind of flavor or chemical compounds into the water, and

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Speaker 2: then you drink the water, people will call this a

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Speaker 2: tea no matter what it is. So you've got herbal

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Speaker 2: teas made from everything from like camomal to turmeric to mint,

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Speaker 2: or even cases where people will refer to meat based

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Speaker 2: broths as like beef tea, but there is no really.

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Speaker 2: But there is also the specific tea plant, the leaves

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Speaker 2: of which are used to make tea proper. And it

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Speaker 2: is this plant and its eponymous infusion that we're going

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Speaker 2: to be most focusing on in these episodes.

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Speaker 1: And obviously there are various blends that have taken place.

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Speaker 1: There's so many teas available now, especially loose leaf teas

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Speaker 1: where you'll have like little bits of dried flavor bits

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Speaker 1: that are not tea, but still the primary ingredient is

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Speaker 1: the dried tea. Now, I think one of the other

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Speaker 1: exciting things about this is and this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a fun one to hear from listeners because I

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Speaker 1: know everyone out there you have your own individual story

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Speaker 1: with tea. You probably have your own cultural story with tea.

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Speaker 1: For my own part, I've come to like a number

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Speaker 1: of different teas. I want to also throw out an

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Speaker 1: important caveat that I would not say that I am

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Speaker 1: like a tea super nerd, you know, like I'm not

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Speaker 1: a connoisseur of teas, So I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: speaking from that vantage point in these episodes. But I've

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Speaker 1: grown particularly fond of these pooh Air teas, which we'll

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Speaker 1: discuss in due course. I like several things about them. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I like the various tastes. They often have this kind

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Speaker 1: of dark, earthy or sometimes there's lighter, but there's often

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Speaker 1: an earthy tone to them sometimes compared to hay, and

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Speaker 1: that is a flavor profile that I find it works.

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Speaker 1: You get interesting results when you do re steeps on it,

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Speaker 1: because the hay taste might be a bit strong in

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Speaker 1: that first cup, but then cup two or three is

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Speaker 1: generally the comfort zone for me personally. I also really

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Speaker 1: love how so many of these particular teas are preserved

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Speaker 1: in bricks or pucks. Sometimes you have to break up

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Speaker 1: the brick with a little specialized knife, and I like

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Speaker 1: the ritual of that. I also like it when it's

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Speaker 1: a little puck that's already been prepared, often circular, sometimes

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Speaker 1: heart shaped today and that can be a lot of

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Speaker 1: fun as well, and also makes it a little handy

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Speaker 1: easy to get into the tea bag.

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Speaker 2: Rob, I seem to recall you getting very into the

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Speaker 2: idea of some kind of disgusting nineteenth century way of

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Speaker 2: preparing coffee that involved like brick or puck based concentrate.

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Speaker 2: Am I remembering that right now?

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Speaker 1: Oh? No, no, no. I think I was interested in

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Speaker 1: the study of like Civil War era instant coffee, but

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Speaker 1: none of it sounded like anything I wanted to even

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Speaker 1: experiment with.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no, no, no, I just meant that you were

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Speaker 2: interested in the idea and not that like you, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: hawking it's virtues as great coffee.

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Speaker 1: No, No, it's just it's interesting history like the and

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Speaker 1: it kind of speaks to the importance of caffeinated beverages

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Speaker 1: to the people who consume them. You'll have situa like

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Speaker 1: war situations where people realize, hey, these soldiers need coffee,

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Speaker 1: these soldiers need tea. How do we get that to them?

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Speaker 1: What is the most cost effective means of doing so?

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Speaker 1: What happens when the product is bad? How do the

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Speaker 1: soldiers in the field relate to this additional indignity. I

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Speaker 1: also love how tea is like anything else. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: like great branding. I love some of the names of

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Speaker 1: the teas that I have enjoyed, Like there's one called

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Speaker 1: the Bewitched Emperor, there's one called Evil Snake King, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm obviously these are just the labels given

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Speaker 1: to these and these are the English I think that

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Speaker 1: these are translations though, of what they're actually called in

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Speaker 1: the case of these two in China as well. But

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Speaker 1: I just love the idea that is wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: the branding for these as well. It makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm not only enjoying an afternoon cup of tea,

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Speaker 1: but I'm engaging in something possibly supernatural.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that I sense no other beverage

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Speaker 2: to have as rich an array of supernatural associations as tea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. Like there's just there's so and

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Speaker 1: it's one of the things that's interesting but also could

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Speaker 1: probably be intimidating at times. Is you get into not

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Speaker 1: just tea culture, but various tea cultures that all have

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Speaker 1: various practices of how you're supposed to prepare it, how

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to consume it, and so forth. I mean

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Speaker 1: Macha from Japan is of course a great example of this,

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Speaker 1: and just on its own can be a wonderful tea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are just so many, so many fascinating teas out there.

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Speaker 1: We're going to touch on some of the tea cultures

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Speaker 1: as we proceed through these episodes. But how about you, Joe,

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Speaker 1: what's your personal story with tea?

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Speaker 2: Well, I am not really a tea drinker, not because

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Speaker 2: I dislike tea. I mean, when I have it, I

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Speaker 2: enjoy it, But I think it's because for me personally,

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Speaker 2: there is simply not room for additional caffeine in my life.

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Speaker 2: I have my morning coffee routine, and I have to

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Speaker 2: be very careful even with that, because if I have

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Speaker 2: too much coffee, I will spend the rest of the

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Speaker 2: day and night having visions of the doom of all

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Speaker 2: and just hear the screams of a dying planet like

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Speaker 2: I get the fear bad. And it's strange. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: always like that. I can think years back, I used

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Speaker 2: to hang out with my friends and drink cup after

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Speaker 2: cup of coffee and I was fine. Something happened to me,

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Speaker 2: and now I cannot handle that much caffeine. It just

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Speaker 2: wrecks me. So after I've had my daily coffee, I

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Speaker 2: do not have tolerance for anything else, no tea proper,

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Speaker 2: no second or third cup whatever. So in order to

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Speaker 2: do caffeinated tea, I think I would have to do

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Speaker 2: a full switch out and have it instead of coffee,

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Speaker 2: which I've never tried to do. But occasionally I do

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Speaker 2: enjoy non tea teas. I like some herbal teas, lemon

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Speaker 2: ginger infusions and stuff, and I guess they do make

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Speaker 2: decaffeinated tea, but I've just never gone down that path.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, yeah, I'm like you, and that I can't

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Speaker 1: quite put aside the morning coffee. I've gotten it down

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Speaker 1: to just two cups of coffee, my initial wake up

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Speaker 1: cup and then the second cup of coffee, and then

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Speaker 1: everything after that for me is tea. Generally it's one

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Speaker 1: tea bag, multiple steeps of set tea bag. And it's

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Speaker 1: worth keeping in mind when thinking about the caffeine. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is just general, and this maybe can't be applied

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Speaker 1: completely across the board, but generally speaking, a cup of coffee,

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Speaker 1: a standard cup of coffee is gonna have somewhere between

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Speaker 1: one hundred, one hundred and twenty milligrams of caffeine. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: a cup of black tea is gonna have forty milligrams

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Speaker 1: of caffeine. Green tea's gonna have thirty. Green and white

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Speaker 1: tend to have the least amount of caffeine, followed by oolong.

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Speaker 1: These numbers are pointed out by Laura C. Martin, who's

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Speaker 1: excellent book A History of Tea is one of the

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Speaker 1: sources that I'm going to keep coming back to in

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Speaker 1: these episodes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so even if I did try to incorporate some

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Speaker 2: tea into my daily routine, it would not be equivalent

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Speaker 2: to drinking the same volume of coffee.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that seems to be the case. Now that being said,

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Speaker 1: there are so many ways to prepare tea, and certainly

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Speaker 1: you could drink enough tea, you could drink those six

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Speaker 1: fresh steeps of tea and risk of transporting yourself to

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Speaker 1: the mystic mountain. So it's always always a possibility. And

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Speaker 1: everybody's different, you know, And I think our relationship with

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Speaker 1: caffeine does change as we age, so naturally, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to be a total tea nerd or immerged

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Speaker 1: to any degree within an Eastern culture of tea to

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Speaker 1: be into TV, because tea has spread around the globe

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Speaker 1: by this point. Tea culture now encompasses everything from British

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Speaker 1: high tea to Southern sweet iced tea, Taiwanese bubble tea,

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Speaker 1: to things like Senegaluese tea and their Tibetan tea preparation

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Speaker 1: methods that are also rather distinct. And again we'll come

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Speaker 1: back to some examples of these later on. But I

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Speaker 1: thought an interesting place to start might be too. Instead

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Speaker 1: of starting with the familiar or even anything in the

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Speaker 1: actual real world, we might start off by getting into

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Speaker 1: the mythological origins of tea. Even before we get into

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Speaker 1: the botanical realities of tea, we might start in just

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Speaker 1: purely mythic and I think mostly Chinese mythological origins for

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Speaker 1: this splendid beverage.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute. If we're getting

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Speaker 2: into a myth about a psychoactive substance and its ancient

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Speaker 2: Chinese myth, are we going to meet the divine farmer

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Speaker 2: once again?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes we will, because of course, if it involves

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Speaker 1: something that you should eat or shouldn't eat, and is

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Speaker 1: a plan of some sort, then yeah, the divine farmer

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Speaker 1: Shinong has to show.

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Speaker 2: Up Shinong putting things in his mouth for everybody's benefit.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yes, we've talked about Shinong before on the show.

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Speaker 1: He's a pretty important figure in Chinese mythology and he's

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Speaker 1: tied to myths concerning various botanical substances. His name literally

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Speaker 1: means divine farmer. He's a culture bearer, a god. He's

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Speaker 1: attributed with the invention of agriculture and the introduction of

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Speaker 1: agriculture to human beings. He's an important name in Chinese medicine.

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Speaker 1: He's said to have invented various farm tools and musical instruments,

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot that this mythological figure is attributed with.

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Speaker 1: And you know, obviously as a mythological figure, he is

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Speaker 1: sort of summing up and condensing a lot of the

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Speaker 1: things that actual human beings did over the course of generations.

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Speaker 1: Figuring out which plant has a medicinal property or seems

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Speaker 1: to which plant is good to eat, which plant will

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Speaker 1: kill you, that sort of thing. You should definitely look

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Speaker 1: up some images of him, because he's He's often depicted

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Speaker 1: as this kind of squat older man with bovine or

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Speaker 1: ox like characteristics, often kind of wide set eyes, and

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Speaker 1: even one of my favorite things about him is he

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Speaker 1: often has these kind of nub like horns. Now I

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Speaker 1: have seen depictions I think these are more modern, but

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Speaker 1: it could be wrong where he has like full blown

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Speaker 1: horns like a hornet deity. But generally it's these kind

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Speaker 1: of nubs where he looks just again, very very bovine.

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Speaker 2: Would you call them buds? Are those called buds?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? They kind of look like like buds. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're looking at, you might say, well,

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Speaker 1: why does that man have two bumps on his head?

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Speaker 1: And it's because it's invoking this kind of ox like characteristics,

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Speaker 1: a character stick of the character. And in some tales

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Speaker 1: he was said to have had the head of a dragon,

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Speaker 1: others the head of an ox. And so we do

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Speaker 1: have to remember that he is a god, of course,

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Speaker 1: so it's natural that he might have some qualities like this.

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Speaker 1: There are various tales about his birth, including some traditions

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Speaker 1: that relate his incredible rate of maturity. One version said

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Speaker 1: that he could talk at three days old, he had

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Speaker 1: all of his teeth, etc. And in some accounts his

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Speaker 1: father was an actual dragon.

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Speaker 2: Wait when you said had all of his teeth, you

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Speaker 2: meant he was like born with all of his teeth,

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Speaker 2: or he had all of his teeth when he was

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Speaker 2: three days old.

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Speaker 1: His memory serves, and I believe this is related in

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Speaker 1: the book Chinese Mythology by yang An and Turner, there's

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Speaker 1: tales that's like, all right, at three days he had this,

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Speaker 1: At four days he had this. So he's just maturing

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Speaker 1: at a rapid rate, where at like three months old

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Speaker 1: he knows everything about agriculture and he's able to teach

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Speaker 1: it to humanity. Okay, but the basic story with Shin

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Speaker 1: own concerning plants is that he not only gave humans

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Speaker 1: the knowledge of agriculture, he also sussed out which plants

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Speaker 1: were useful in medicine and which ones were food, and

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Speaker 1: also which ones were poison And he did this, of course,

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Speaker 1: by testing them all himself. In some tellings, he's not

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Speaker 1: actually eating them. He's thrashing them with a reddish brown whip,

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Speaker 1: like a whip that is. And there's a lot you

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Speaker 1: can get into with the symbolism of it. I've seen

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Speaker 1: that it's there's something to it that this is kind

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Speaker 1: of the color of dried blood. Other times he has

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Speaker 1: a cauldron. So yeah. In some cases he says to

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Speaker 1: have some tools that he's using. But in many tellings

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Speaker 1: and certainly many artistic interpretations, he's testing all these various

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Speaker 1: botanicals out by eating them, and then afterwards he passes judgment.

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Speaker 1: He's okay, this this is a plant that would be

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Speaker 1: good for medicine, so I'm going to put it into

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Speaker 1: my right hand bag. This one is good for food,

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Speaker 1: so it's going into my left hand bag, and he

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Speaker 1: sorts it generally like that.

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Speaker 2: What about the one that are poisonous.

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Speaker 1: There's one tale where if something's poisonous, he just wants

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Speaker 1: to stop it, Like, I think there's a story that's

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Speaker 1: related about Ginger, where originally Ginger was said to be

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Speaker 1: poisonous and Shinong took a look at each he like

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Speaker 1: he checked it out and he's like, yeah, this is horrible.

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Speaker 1: I want to stomp on it as well. And then

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Speaker 1: Ginger had to change in order to be accepted, and

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Speaker 1: that's when Ginger went underground. Oh beautiful. Yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to explore that one more at some point

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Speaker 1: because I don't really understand all the meaning going on there,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's it's interesting now. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this version of the story with Shinong before,

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Speaker 1: but as Yang'an and Turner point out, in Chinese mythology,

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Speaker 1: some versions also state that Shinnong is particularly good at

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Speaker 1: figuring all of this out because he has a crystal

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Speaker 1: stomach and he can see everything that's going on inside

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Speaker 1: of his own internal organs as he's digesting things.

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Speaker 2: It's like top ar. They open up his stomach and

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Speaker 2: they can look inside and see it see all the

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Speaker 2: parts working.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just I love it. I definitely picture

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Speaker 1: this as kind of like almost some sort of an

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Speaker 1: android body that he has going on underneath his robes

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Speaker 1: here that he can pull it up, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: just crystal organs under crystal skin, and he can observe

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Speaker 1: every little detail going on in digestion. So in some

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Speaker 1: versions of the story, the first plant he was said

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Speaker 1: to taste was a green leaf, which once he put

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Speaker 1: it in his mouth and swallowed it, it went on

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Speaker 1: a grand tour of his insides, cleaning up everything along

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Speaker 1: the way, and again crystal stomach, so he gets to

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Speaker 1: watch it go.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it's kind of like a dryer sheet or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess. This particular plant was referred to

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Speaker 1: as cha, which means to inspect, which eventually got confused

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Speaker 1: in later tellings with cha, which is the exact same

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Speaker 1: phonetic sound but a different Chinese character. So the story

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Speaker 1: becomes later on that Shinong was poisoning himself upwards of

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Speaker 1: seventy times a day, testing out the world's plants to

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Speaker 1: determine which ones we could use for various purposes, and

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Speaker 1: if something got on top of him he got some

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Speaker 1: poison going around in his system, he would turn to

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Speaker 1: the cleansing power of tea to detoxify himself.

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Speaker 2: Oh so, by the way, you should not derive actual

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Speaker 2: use value from that. But yeah, so in this version

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Speaker 2: of the story, T is like a universal antidote, right.

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Speaker 1: And my understanding too is that older versions of the

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Speaker 1: story are not referring to T, but it becomes Tea

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Speaker 1: and later tellings of the story though this eventually catches

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Speaker 1: up with him. I was reading in that book that

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Speaker 1: one day he is said to have tried a yellow flower,

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Speaker 1: and upon trying the yellow flower, it broke his intestines

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Speaker 1: into pieces. He sees this through his stomach, his crystal stomach.

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Speaker 1: This occurs just the moment he swallows it, and he's

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Speaker 1: quickly trying to, you know, get himself some tea so

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Speaker 1: he can cleanse everything up, but it is too late.

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Speaker 1: He dies, and the plant that does this to him

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Speaker 1: becomes known as the intestine breaking weed.

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Speaker 2: That is brutal in so many ways, especially because it

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Speaker 2: imagines the intestines as brittle rather than elastic. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I guess you could think of them that way.

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Speaker 1: Well again, it makes me personally think of Shinong's crystal

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Speaker 1: organs as being like glass. And then the shattering is

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Speaker 1: kind of like when a cartoon character bites on something

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Speaker 1: that's too hard, and their teeth do that cartoon shattering thing.

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Speaker 1: That's what I picture in my mind happening to Shinong

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Speaker 1: here portion on. Yeah. Now there's a book, Shinong's Herbal Classic,

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Speaker 1: a later Han dynasty book that includes a great deal

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Speaker 1: of knowledge related to various botanical substances, and this book

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Speaker 1: is attributed to Shinong, likely based on oral traditions. It

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Speaker 1: includes a passage on tea, telling us that it's bitter

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Speaker 1: and share some details about when, how and where it

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Speaker 1: grows best. But as Laura C. Martin points out in

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Speaker 1: a History of Ta, references to T in this book

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Speaker 1: were probably not original to it, as the character for

400
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Speaker 1: Ta itself didn't come into usage until seventh century. But

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Speaker 1: more on the timeline of tea in a bit, because

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Speaker 1: we're still for now in the mythic.

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Speaker 2: Timeline, okay, But talking about this book attributed to Shinong,

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Speaker 2: the idea is that probably there were earlier versions of

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Speaker 2: the book that did not have the tea passages, and

406
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Speaker 2: in recopying through the year's tea passages were inserted by

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Speaker 2: some editor or copyist exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Now, there are a couple of other tea related

409
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Speaker 1: myths here. This is one that Young Haan Turner point out.

410
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Speaker 1: It's a creation myth of the Dang ethnic people known

411
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Speaker 1: outside of China as the Palolang people in Unan Province.

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Speaker 1: And it's said that in this creation myth, one hundred

413
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Speaker 1: and two tea leaves went around and around in the

414
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Speaker 1: air for thirty thousand years and then transformed into fifty

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Speaker 1: one young men and fifty one young women. That's the

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Speaker 1: beginning of humanity. Now there's another one. This is a

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Speaker 1: This is a tea myth that largely emerges from India

418
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Speaker 1: rather than China. As Martin points out, the early history

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Speaker 1: of tea centers around China. But the plant is indigenous

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Speaker 1: to the Assam region of India in addition to southwestern China.

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Speaker 1: Yet it seems that it was a little known or

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Speaker 1: used in India prior to the sixth century.

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Speaker 2: Seat and if you don't know where it is, Assam

424
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Speaker 2: is located in northeastern India. So the area of origin

425
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Speaker 2: for the tea plant, we think is basically southwestern China

426
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Speaker 2: northeastern India.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, though it does seem like it was better

428
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: known in China as opposed to India. But of course

429
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Speaker 1: we see a fair amount of cultural exchange between India

430
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Speaker 1: and China, and of course the most famous example of

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Speaker 1: this is of course Buddhism, and this particular story does

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Speaker 1: involve Buddhism as well. It's the story of Bodhidharma, who

433
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Speaker 1: was a fifth century semi legendary Indian prince who, much

434
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: like the Buddha himself a thousand years earlier, came to

435
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: see the emptiness of wealth and abandoned all of it

436
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: in the quest for enlightenment. He became a Buddhist monk,

437
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: and after many years of study, he travels to China

438
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: to reintroduce Buddhism and found Buddhism had been introduced into

439
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: China previously, but this most period where maybe it was

440
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: waning a bit, and he said to end up becoming

441
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: the founder of Chan Buddhism in the process. But while

442
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 1: he's in China, after visiting the emperor on this trip,

443
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: he retreated. He eats to a shovelin temple and here

444
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: he begins a long period of devoted meditation and asceticism.

445
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: So depending on the tail, and again there are different

446
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: versions with this. With most of these stories, he either

447
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: stares at a wall for nine years in meditation, or

448
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: he gives up sleep for nine years so that he

449
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: can really double down on his meditation. In one version

450
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: of this story, he grows so sleepy that he reaches

451
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: out and he grabs a leaf, like a random leaf,

452
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: and he just shoves it in his mouth to chew

453
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: it as a way to perk himself up. And his

454
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: luck would have it, this plant is tee and it

455
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: really does perk him up because it we'll discuss it

456
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: a bit, it contains a stimulant. There's another version of

457
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: this tale, and this one I got in trouble for

458
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: sharing at the Venner table in my post research excitement.

459
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: But in this other version, he's getting sleepy and he

460
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: pulls off his own eyelids because it's like, oh, heavy eyelids,

461
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: they keep shutting. I'm trying to meditate, but I keep

462
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: falling asleep. So he just pulls the eyelids off, throws

463
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: them on the ground, and then a tea plant grows

464
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: from where the eyelids fall. So, in either case, according

465
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: to this legendary account, he discovers tea and passes it

466
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: on to the other monks to assist them in their meditation.

467
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: All right, So there's just a taste of some of

468
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: the mythological stories involving the origin of ta, this spectacular

469
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: plant that is either discovered or perhaps even created out

470
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: of some sort of inspired inside by a legendary or

471
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: semi legendary individual.

472
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: Now, when it comes to the T plant itself, there

473
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: were a few things that I actually did not know

474
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: until recently. I don't know if I should be embarrassed

475
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 2: about not knowing these, but I was just pretty much

476
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: in the dark about tea. But one thing I discovered

477
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: was that, apart from the issue of things being called

478
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: tea just actually being an infusion of anything, even when

479
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: you're talking about the T plant itself. Previously thought that

480
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: the main varieties of tea you hear about, like green

481
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: tea and black tea or maybe oolong tea, were from

482
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: different plants. But actually these are all from the same

483
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: plant as far as I can tell. They're just different

484
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: preparation and curing methods. Correct.

485
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're essentially we're talking about one single species

486
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: of plant. Camellia senensuss Camellia sinensus is an evergreen shrub

487
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: or tree, and you know Asterix there, we'll get to

488
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: that that produces small white petaled flowers. In the wild,

489
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: it will eventually reach tree size, but in situations where

490
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: it's been cultivated, generally they're kept at a shrub size

491
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: via pruning. They're typically kept at like a meter or

492
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: three feet in height, as that's an ideal height for picking.

493
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you have these top layers of leaves

494
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: that come out, and I think they refer to those

495
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 2: as flushes, like the leaves keep protruding and then the

496
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 2: top young leaves are harvested.

497
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and while we're essentially talking about one species, there

498
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: are two varieties. There's Camillias Andensus. This is the one

499
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: that's indigenous to western Yunnan in China. And then there's

500
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: a variety of that Camillia Senensus issamica. This is indigenous

501
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: to the Assam region of India as well as parts

502
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and southern China. Now,

503
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: these two varieties they cross pollinate easily, so they are

504
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: also blends of the two. But Martin stresses that they're

505
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: actually not that different in taste either. So the varying

506
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: tastes and colors of different teas they stem from the

507
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: way we process them, whether you're talking about black or

508
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: green oolong, et cetera. And so either variety of tea

509
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: leaf processed the same way will basically be similar. But

510
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: at the same time, we don't want to discount traditions

511
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: surrounding particular teas. It's one of those things. It's kind

512
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: of like, you know, wine tastes or any kind of

513
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: like cultural food tradition. There's a lot tied up in

514
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: knowing where something comes from as well, and some of

515
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: that translates into the taste for the average consumer. Sometimes

516
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: it's something that translates into the connoisseur's taste experience, and

517
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: sometimes you're getting into an area where yes, you're being

518
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: primed that this particular I don't know, you know, this

519
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: wine stems from this vintage versus this vintage, this winery

520
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: versus this winery, etc. Yeah.

521
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of

522
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: different foods that maybe you actually couldn't tell the difference

523
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: in a blind taste test. But then again, it might

524
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: be cool to enjoy an authentic version of something knowing

525
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: the history behind it, like knowing where it comes from

526
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: and being able to think about that and so forth.

527
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: Exactly so in the wild, tea plants are generally going

528
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: to thrive in an open woodland area or on the

529
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: edge of the woodlands where they can benefit from the

530
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: shade of larger trees. As such, when cultivating tea plants,

531
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: they're generally grown alongside shade trees. These, as Martin points out,

532
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: not only provide shade, but also it keeps weeds away

533
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: and enriches the soil and generally the leaves and the

534
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: buds or what are harvested fresh leaves generally contain about

535
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: four percent caffeine.

536
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: I'm reading, and I was wondering about this because I

537
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: had read that it is maybe we can get more

538
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: into this when we do some of the cultural history.

539
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: But I have read that tea leaves were traditionally treated

540
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: as a food plant in China, more so than a

541
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: beverage plant, and the beverage stage came later. And so

542
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: apparently you can eat tea leaves. You can just prepare

543
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: them like a green and chew them up and eat them.

544
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 2: People do this sometimes and it's fine, though you need

545
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: to be careful about how much you eat, obviously, because

546
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: you don't want to overdose yourself.

547
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: On caffeine right right, because most of us don't have

548
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: crystal clear guts that we can look at and to

549
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: determine what's happening, you know, by the moment. But yeah,

550
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: that'll be fun to get into in a subsequent episode.

551
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: The history of tea as a beverage is also the

552
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: history of a food, so yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

553
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: But coming back to the caffeine, this is a question

554
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: that applies of course to tea, but also to other

555
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: caffeinated beverages, or at least ones that have a natural origin,

556
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: Like why is there caffeine in the leaf? Like what

557
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: is there? Well, why is that substance that, for us

558
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: humans is a stimulant that kind of manipulates us as

559
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: a consumer of the plant, Like why is it even there?

560
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: To begin with great question, So as a jumping off

561
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 2: point to answer this, I want to refer to an

562
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: article I was reading on the subject by previous show

563
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: guest Carl Zimmer, who is one of our favorite science writers.

564
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: He's been a guest on the podcast before. Maybe we'll

565
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: get him back again someday, but he came on to

566
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: talk about his book on genes and heredity called She

567
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: Has Her Mother's Laugh, which is a fantastic book. And

568
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: so Carl Zimmer had an article in twenty fourteen in

569
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: The New York Times called how Caffeine Evolved to help

570
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: plants survive and help people wake up? And he begins

571
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: by pointing out some rough stats about the popularity and

572
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: power of coffee and caffeine, saying the world consumes roughly

573
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: twenty six thousand cups of coffee per second. That's a lot.

574
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: That caffeine is probably the most widely used psychoactive substance

575
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: in the world. But there's an interesting thing about caffeine,

576
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: which is that it has a number of different associated

577
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: plants that it comes from. So, for example, there are

578
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: coffee beans. Coffee Beans are the seeds of a genus

579
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: of flowering plant called Caffea or Coffea in the family rubiaishi.

580
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: These plants are native to tropical Africa and tropical Asia.

581
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: There is of course tea. Tea again is made from

582
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: the leaves of the evergreen shrub Camillias and ensus, which

583
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: is native to East Asia. There's mate made from the

584
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: urbamate plant, which is a holly shrub native to South

585
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: America scientific name Ilex paraguariensis. And then you've even got chocolate.

586
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: Chocolate also contains caffeine. Chocolate's made from the seeds of

587
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: the cacao tree or theobroma cacao. Theobroma, by the way,

588
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: means food of the gods. Theo roma and historically was

589
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: not always used as an ingredient in sweets and desserts.

590
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: The main way we in the United States consume it today.

591
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: It was often consumed as a bitter, hot, or cold beverage,

592
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: kind of similar to how we consume coffee, which of

593
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: course would have carried a punch of caffeine, and chocolate

594
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: does have caffeine.

595
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: I think our Invention episode where we talk to Jeff

596
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: Beach Bomberry, we talked a little bit about ancient recipes

597
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: for hot chocolate.

598
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: Essentially, But it's kind of interesting to look at this

599
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: geographic distribution and say, how do all of these different

600
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: plants that are not closely related to one another independently

601
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: make this same compound. We know why humans like caffeine,

602
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 2: but what does caffeine do for the plants, and how

603
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: did all these diverse different species evolve to make it?

604
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: Well.

605
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 2: This article looks at a study published in the journal

606
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: Science in twenty fourteen, where researchers detailed an effort to

607
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: sequence the genome of a species of coffee plant responsible

608
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: for many of the world's coffee beans. This remember, coffee

609
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: comes from the genus Coffea or coffea, and this is

610
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 2: Coffea canaphora. The study is by France. Oh, I do

611
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: not know how to pronounce this last name, Deneud is

612
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: how the name is spelled at all, and the title

613
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: is the coffee genome provides insight into the convergent evolution

614
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: of caffeine biosynthesis. Again, that's in the journal Science twenty fourteen.

615
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 2: So one thing this study looked at is how caffeine

616
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: is actually synthesized in coffee plants. And it turns out

617
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: it is a multi stage transformation of molecule that it

618
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: begins with a compound called xanthozine, and the coffee plant

619
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: manufactures several enzymes that act on this compound. So one

620
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 2: enzyme removes an arm of the molecule, another enzyme adds

621
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 2: a new arm, Two more enzymes come in and add

622
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: two more clusters of atoms, and after all these transformations,

623
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 2: you finally have transformed xanthezine into caffeine, and the enzymes

624
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 2: involved in this multi step transformation are called in methyl transferases.

625
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: They are found in all plants, and they do generally

626
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: this sort of work, building specific compounds, many of which

627
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: plants use to defend themselves against predator or parasites. And

628
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: one example of a compound manufactured with the help of

629
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: in methyl transferases that zimbercites in the article is salicylic acid,

630
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: which is a compound produced by willow trees, which actually

631
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: turns out to be a potent pain reliever in animals

632
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: like us. Salicilic acid is the chemical basis for aspirin.

633
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: But what about the enzymes that manufacture caffeine specifically in coffee. Well,

634
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: the authors determine that some time ago, in the evolution

635
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 2: of the coffee plant, a gene for creating one type

636
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: of in methyl transfer enzyme underwent a series of mutations

637
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: to produce a variety of enzymes which would eventually create caffeine.

638
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: And so one of the co authors is quoted in

639
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: Carl Zimber's articles. This is by Victor A. Albert saying

640
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: they're all descendants of a common ancestor enzyme that started

641
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: screwing around with xanthezene compounds, So the plants are just

642
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: kind of like doing all these little variations on this

643
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: originator molecule and producing these derivative molecules that in many

644
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: cases are physiologically active or psychoactive on animals. And it

645
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: turns out scientists had already discovered that caffeine was created

646
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: by the action of in methyl transferrass in cocaw trees

647
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: and in the tea plant, so similar molecular frameworks are

648
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 2: going on within coffee plants, within the tree that makes

649
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: chocolate or cocow, and within tea plants. However, the researchers

650
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: also found that the enzymes for making caffeine in these

651
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: different plants did not all evolve from the same ancestors.

652
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: So this would be a case of convergent evolution, different

653
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: branches on the tree of life evolving the same solution,

654
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: the same phenotype independently. So you can think of a

655
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: million different examples of this. One is wings. Birds and

656
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: bees both evolved flapping wings independently for flight. They didn't

657
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: get them from a common ancestor that had wings. They

658
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: know their last common ancestor did not have wings, and

659
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: they independently, separately came up with the same solution. Now,

660
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: when you see convergent evolution, you see different streams of

661
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: evolution converging on the same trait or the same solution

662
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: to an environmental problem. It's usually a sign that that

663
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: trait or solution is pretty good. It's a powerful adaptation,

664
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: and there's a big survival and reproduction payoff. So it

665
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: would seem, based on the evidence of convergent evolution, that

666
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: producing caffeine is definitely good for something for the plants.

667
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: So what is it really good for. Well, there are

668
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: a few things we can talk about. One is activity

669
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: in poisoning or deterring predation by insects. So, like so

670
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: many of the plant based compounds that humans ingest on

671
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: purpose for their psychoactive properties, caffeine seems to be at

672
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: least in part useful for deterring predation by insects. Insects

673
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: would of course naturally like to eat the leaves and

674
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: the seeds of the cope plant, but high levels of

675
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: caffeine are toxic to them, and this relationship can be

676
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 2: seen further in the fact that the fruit fly Drosophila

677
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: drosophala has the ability to taste the presence of certain compounds.

678
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: I was reading about how they have an array of

679
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: at least sixty eight known These are called seven transmembrane

680
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: goostatory receptors or goustatory receptors are grs and goustatory meaning taste.

681
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: So these goustatory receptors allow the fly to sense the

682
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: presence of compounds that could kill it or harm it

683
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: and avoid eating them. Caffeine is one of those compounds.

684
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: Fruit Flies appear to have a suite of receptors, including

685
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: one called g R sixty six A, that work together

686
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: to sense the presence of caffeine in whatever they're eating

687
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: and allow an avoidance response to take over. Now, I

688
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: think it's interesting to put that together with the fact

689
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: that in the human experience, most alkaloids taste. Bitter. Alkaloids

690
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: are a broad class of nitrogen bearing organic compounds that

691
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: plants make, many of which have physiological effects on humans

692
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: and other animals, effects ranging from you know, all your

693
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 2: standard types of poisoning and death to psychoactive effects such

694
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: as the stimulant effect of caffeine. So bitter taste often

695
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: causes animals to reject a food source. So I think

696
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: it's kind of reasonable to put all this together in

697
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: wonder if the sensation of bitterness when ingesting plants rich

698
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: in alkaloids is perhaps a protective response that tells us

699
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: to stop consuming these plants and reject them, similar in

700
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: effect to the way that a fruitfly has the ability

701
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: to taste and reject caffeine, though with a different evolutionary backstory.

702
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, it makes me

703
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: think of, you know, the obvious of example of say

704
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: a child being introduced to coffee and finding it disgusting

705
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: because it is bitter. And also we have to think

706
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: about the fact that that the chocolate unsweeten has a

707
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: very bitter taste to it as well, though of course

708
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: in both cases coffee and chocolate, there is of course

709
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: a process involved here we're not going to really get

710
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: into with coffee and chocolate between plant and even the

711
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: unsweetened food product, but that's something we can come back

712
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: to in the future. I love to do something on chocolate,

713
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: say in the future.

714
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And yeah, it's interesting to think about the complex

715
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 2: human reaction or response to bitterness that it seems bitterness

716
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: is probably primarily biologically relevant in getting us to reject foods.

717
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: You know, it's like this has something in it that

718
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to get too much of, So I

719
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: probably don't want to eat too much of this.

720
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So many of the naturally occurring pesticides that we consume, Yeah,

721
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: they have some sort of a strong flavor that would

722
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: tend to convince most humans to avoid them, certainly, and

723
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: in many of the cases where there are various spices,

724
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: avoid them in larger quantities than we traditionally use them.

725
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: And yet we can really get a taste for them.

726
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 2: I mean, I like the bitter taste of coffee and

727
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: of chocolate and of tea and so forth. It might

728
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: have to do with like it's a level of bitterness

729
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: that doesn't reach kind of a threshold which you would

730
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: find it disgusting, like it's like below the bar for rejection.

731
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: Or it could be a totally it could be a

732
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: learned response. I mean maybe naturally people don't like bitter

733
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: stuff in any quantity, but if culturally they learn to

734
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: appreciate it, I don't know, maybe maybe that's what's making

735
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: the difference there.

736
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean in cocktail culture, for example, you

737
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: have a you know, a whole spectrum of bitter drinks.

738
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you're just adding a little bitter taste

739
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: via bitters in many cases, to to offset sweetness and

740
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: give you a certain flavor profile. But some people go

741
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: especially hard for those those bitter drinks. They're like, I've

742
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: never tried one of these, but you have these recipes

743
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 1: floating around for mixed drinks that contain like multiple bitter

744
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: components to try and create like some sort of uber

745
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: bitter concoction, which is not for me, but I assume

746
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: it's for some people who have developed a taste for

747
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: all of those bitter components.

748
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I do think about how many of

749
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: the bitter food almost all of the really enjoyable bitter

750
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: foods and beverages I can think of or psychoactive in

751
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: one way or another. I mean, I guess not like

752
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, bitter greens or something. You know, I like

753
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: greens that can be bitter, but I think of coffee,

754
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: which has caffeine. I think of chocolate, which has caffeine.

755
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: I think of tea, which has caffeine. Or I think

756
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: of alcoholic beverages that are bitter, like you know, like

757
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: hoppy beers and so forth.

758
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's almost like on some level, our bodies

759
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: saying this tastes bad, but something good is happening.

760
00:43:47,480 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, but okay, So caffeine, one of it rolls within

761
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 4: a plant might be to deter insects or other animals,

762
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 4: maybe from eating the leaves of the plant.

763
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: They got enough caffeine in there. One way or another,

764
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: the toxicity of the caffeine will drive the animal away.

765
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: Another interesting idea that Zimmer raises in this article is

766
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: that caffeine in coffee plants is suspected to work also

767
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: by inhibiting the growth and germination of other plants. He

768
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: writes that when coffee leaves die and fall off of

769
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: a coffee plant, they fall down to the soil below.

770
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 2: The caffeine content seeps into the earth and interferes with

771
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: the ability of other plant species in the soil nearby

772
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: to germinate. So this helps limit competition for soil resources

773
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: and sunlight in the area. Now, I didn't find anything

774
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: specifically about whether or not that's true with tea plants

775
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: as well, but it could also be the case if

776
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: it works for the coffee plant. But one thing where

777
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: I did find a parallel between how they think caffeine

778
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 2: is working in coffee plants and tea plants is its

779
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: role in pollination. I thought this was the most interesting

780
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: of all. So, in addition to deterring insect or animal

781
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 2: predation and perhaps limiting competition from nearby plants, the psychoactive

782
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: and drug like properties of caffeine on animals might be

783
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 2: not only an unintended byproduct or side effect of their

784
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 2: physiological activity as a deterrent. They might actually be in

785
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: part the point of the compound, or at least one

786
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: of the points of the compound, and it would work

787
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 2: like this So coffee and flowering plants that produce caffeine

788
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: in their leaves also produce lower doses of caffeine in

789
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: their nectar. Now, plants make nectar as a food for

790
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 2: insects as an incentive for insects to spread their pollen.

791
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 2: So the insect gets sugar from the plant, it gets

792
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: a meal, and the plant gets help with reproduction and

793
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: dispersal when returning it's help spreading its genetic material. Now

794
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 2: here's the really interesting thing. Research has shown that when

795
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 2: insects feed on plant nectar containing low doses of caffeine,

796
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: they seem to become more disposed to remember the scent

797
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: of the flower where they consumed that nectar, and researchers

798
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: believe this may cause the insect to return to that

799
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: flower more often and thus spread its pollen more effectively.

800
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: So maybe out of just one compound, this one molecule

801
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: that the plant creates, it can be getting multiple completely

802
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: different effects depending on the dosage in the different part

803
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: of the plant. So maybe higher levels in the leaves

804
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: will deter insects from trying to eat the leaves, but

805
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: lower levels in the nectar will be more like a

806
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: cup of coffee for the insect, which boosts the insect's

807
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 2: memory and allows it to return to the same plant

808
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: more frequently and spread that plant's genetic material. Toxic and

809
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: high concentration, but beneficial to some types of brain function

810
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: at lower doses. And it's funny that caffeine has the

811
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: same dual effect on humans. I mean, if you have

812
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 2: too much of it, it will kill you. But if

813
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: you have these low doses of it that people consume

814
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: in beverages and stuff, people use it directly as a

815
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: stimulant to improve their brain function.

816
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, coming back to Shinong, the mythical story here,

817
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: it's basically an individual god figuring out to what degree

818
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: one should consume the world of poisons around us, how

819
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: much of this poison is appropriate for desired outcome, and

820
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: then which poisons should we not mess with at all?

821
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: Exactly? So I found this so interesting. But anyway, this

822
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: was all about the coffee plant. I was trying to

823
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 2: find is the same thing true of the T plant,

824
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 2: And I did, in fact find. A study from just

825
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago is from twenty twenty one

826
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: published in the Journal of Insect Physiology. It was by

827
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: Gwen Gong at All and it was called Laurel T

828
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: polyphenols can improve honeybee memory retention and olfactory sensitivity. So

829
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: the background on the study is to read from their

830
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,879
Speaker 2: abstract quote. Animal pollinated plants face a common problem how

831
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: their defensive anti herbivore compounds may impair or alter pollinator behavior.

832
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 2: Evolution has tailored multiple solutions, which largely involve pollinator tolerance

833
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: or manipulation to the benefit of the plant, not the

834
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: removal of these compounds from pollen or nectar. The T

835
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: plant Camilli s. Senensis is famous for the caffeine and

836
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: T polyphenols that it produces in its leaves. However, these

837
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 2: compounds are also found in its nectar, which honeybees readily collect.

838
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: So to summarize here, the authors tested the effects of

839
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: these two different products of the tea plant, of the

840
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: caffeine and the T polyphenols, and they tested it on

841
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 2: the forging behavior of honeybees. And what they say they

842
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: found is that honeybees preferred simulated nectar from a feeder

843
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: when it contained T polyphenols over a control feeder that

844
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 2: did not contain them. And they also found that bees

845
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: that were fed on a feeder laced with caffeine showed

846
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: small improvements in learning. Both caffeine and T polyphenols increased

847
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 2: memory retention and showed influences on other behaviors as well,

848
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: such as response to alarm pheromones. So it seems that

849
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: the T plant may well be adapted to give pollinating

850
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: insects small doses of caffeine and T polyphenols for a reason.

851
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: It could mean, among other things, that the pollinating insects

852
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: are more likely to keep returning to the same plant

853
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: and spreading its genetic material. And I thought this was

854
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 2: so interesting. So if this is in fact the case,

855
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: it's a more complex relationship than I usually imagine between

856
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 2: plants and the alkaloids that they manufacture and the animals

857
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: that they target, because I usually think of the relationship

858
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: as a pretty simple one way way interaction, like the

859
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: plant alkaloid causes some kind of negative physiological response or

860
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 2: reaction in the animal, and then the animal is deterred

861
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: from eating the plant again, or the animal is driven

862
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: to evolve like gustatory receptors or taste that make the

863
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: plant taste nasty from the first spite, because you know,

864
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: it's ancestors that didn't have that may have died. But

865
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: this is a more complex implied relationship. I don't know

866
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: exactly what to compare it to. I mean, it's almost

867
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: like the cultivating of an analog of an addiction, but

868
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: one with I don't know, survival benefits for the bee

869
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: as well, because it allows them to keep returning to

870
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: a food source.

871
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: So before we got into all this here, if I

872
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: were put to the test, I would have just said, well,

873
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: caffeine implants is just about keeping some things from eating them,

874
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: and we've managed to manipulate that situation for our own benefit.

875
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, it sounds like the reality is a lot

876
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: more complicated. Of course, you can't really think about purpose

877
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: and design and desire in the literal sense when it

878
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: comes to the evolution of something like this in various

879
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: plant species. But I am kind of reminded of how

880
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: some products in the human world will end up with

881
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: more than one purpose, Like, for instance, I think of

882
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: bag bomb. Have you ever used bag bomb or seen

883
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: a container of bag bomb?

884
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Explain.

885
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: It's like a little greenkin and I believe it dates

886
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: back to her about eighteen ninety nine, and it was

887
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: it's a salve to put on a cow's udders after milking.

888
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: But people started using it because they realized that, hey,

889
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: you can put this on dry cracked skin. And so

890
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: it's one of these things where it ended up being

891
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: there's this whole additional application of the product, an entire

892
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: different consumer base that kind of sprang out of it.

893
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: It's more complicated, obviously with the case with caffeine and plants,

894
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: but it's almost it almost feels like that where there

895
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: may be one purpose that's kind of driving the evolution

896
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: of this, but then this other use, the other way

897
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: that it can enhance the survivability of the plant emerges

898
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: as well, and so you have these sort of dual

899
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: forces driving it at that point.

900
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Evolution loves to repurpose pre existing morphologies, So

901
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: like a structure or a chemical capacity, or something that

902
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 2: evolved initially for one reason can always be repurposed when

903
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 2: a new opportunity presents itself. Yeah, and I don't know

904
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: specifically what the order would have been in any of

905
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: these cases, whether you're talking about coffee plants or tea plants,

906
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: but you can imagine a compound. Initially, there is evolutionary

907
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: pressure favoring the enzymes to produce that compound because it

908
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't know, because it deters predation by animals, or

909
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 2: because it limits competition when the leaves fall into the soil.

910
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: And then later something like this relationship with pollinators emerges

911
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: using the same compound.

912
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: And then eventually this relationship with human beings who start

913
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: cultivating it. So it's fascinating to think about all of

914
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: these relationships. All Right, we're gonna go ahead and wrap

915
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: up this episode, but we'll be back in the next

916
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: episode with more discussion of tea. In the meantime, of course,

917
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everyone out there. You might

918
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: be thinking to yourself, well, I have some tidbit I

919
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: want to share about tea, but surely Robert and Joe

920
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: don't want to hear it. No, we want to hear

921
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: it right in. We want to know about your individual

922
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: or cultural differences and appetite for tea. If there are

923
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: other myths or legends or folk tales that you've heard

924
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: about about the origins of tea, write in. We would

925
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. In the meantime, will remind

926
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

927
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On

928
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,479
Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail. That's that's when we will

929
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: read the messages that come in about these episodes. On

930
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode,

931
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: and then on Fridays it's Weird House Cinema time. That's

932
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: when we set aside most serious concerns and just talk

933
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: about a strange film.

934
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Pauseway. If you

935
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

936
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

937
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

938
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

939
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: dot com.

940
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

941
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

942
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 3: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.