WEBVTT - Jane Goodall ON: Winning the War on Nature & How Simple Actions Make Big Changes 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.280 We don't deserve the title of Homo sapiens the wise ape, 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.719 because we've been destroying our only home, because there's been 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.160 a disconnect I think between this clever brain and the 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.759 human heart. I love the way we poetically put love 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:22.000 and compassion into the human heart and then finally this 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.599 indomitable human spirit that won't give in and so often succeed. 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:36.000 So how can you not have hope? Hey, everyone, welcome 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.920 back to our Purpose, the number one a health podcast 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.519 in the world. Thanks to each and every single one 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:44.720 of you that come back every week to listen, learn 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.520 and grow. Now, it's not every week that you get 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.959 to sit down with one of your heroes and legends. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.319 I am not I am not overestimating at all. This 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.520 is someone that was on my original list of people 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.280 I wanted to sit down with when I started this podcast. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.840 You know that I want to sit down with thinkers, activists, philanthropists, 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.560 and people that are doing work in the world that 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.160 inspires me and can inspire all of us to do more. 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.120 I'm speaking about the one and only Jane Goodall. Jane, 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.800 thank you so much for being with me here today. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.440 I am so grateful to spend this time with you, 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.600 and I thank you for giving me this opportunity. Well, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.720 thank you for inviting me, and I'm sure we're going 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.360 to have a wonderful conversation. Absolutely, Jane. Whereabouts in the 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:35.600 world are you right now? I'm in England, south of England, Bournemouth, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.400 in the house where I grew up, where I have 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.000 been grounded since the beginning of the pandemic. Wow. I 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.160 read that one of your favorite novel series was Tarzan. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.920 I wanted to know what about that story lights you 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.240 up and why it's one of your favorites. Well, actually, 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.080 you know, when I look at the favorites, Well, actually 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.760 you know when I look at the original Tarzan of 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:03.639 the Apes fired me. I was ten years old and ah, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.640 I wanted to go to Africa. I wanted to live 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.560 with wild animals in the forest. I thought Tarzan married 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.560 the wrong Jane. If I read the book now, I 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.240 don't like it because there's an awful lot of killing 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.640 and death and all that stuff. But that's what inspired me, 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.600 and that's what made my dream. I will go to Africa, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.320 live with wild animals and write books about them. Because 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.600 back then, girl, I mean, we're going back like seventy 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.799 eight years or something. Girls weren't scientists. No girls went 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.240 out in the forest. Everybody laughed at me, Jane, dream 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:47.160 about something you can achieve, not my amazing mother. She said, 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.840 if you really want to do something like this, well 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.240 you're going to have to work very hard, take advantage 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.799 of every opportunity, and if you don't give up, maybe 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.840 you'll find a way. Incredible advice from your mother. What 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.280 do you think it was about her that she was 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.240 able to have that vision and that encouragement for you, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.200 Apart from her love for you, what is it that 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.560 you think made her special in that way, especially at 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.560 a time when women were being discouraged from anything of 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.160 the sort. She had a wonderful mother who was kind 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.200 of way ahead of her time, and she had an 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:28.040 extraordinary father who was a congregational minister. My one sadness 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.560 I never met him. He died before I was born. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.840 But everything I've read about him, you know he used 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.600 to go out in the woods. He would take his 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:40.120 children out and tell them about nature, and I know 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:42.560 that I would have got on so well with him. 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.800 So basically, my mother was special because she had special parents, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:52.440 and that's important for us to know. Now. I attribute 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.200 much of who I am and what I've done, to 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.760 the fact that my mother supported me when I was 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.880 a child. How did it affect you, Jane, when you 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.080 had this dream and this vision but people around you 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.000 told you it wasn't possible. I mean, the words you 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.360 shared of people that you spoke to sounded very discouraging, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.200 especially for a young person. And I feel today a 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.960 lot of young people here different things, but it's the 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.080 same message. You're not smart enough, you're not good enough, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.719 you're not the right person. It's not the right time. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.240 How did that make you feel? And how did you 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.840 process that at the time. Well, you see, because I 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.440 had this supportive family. It was only my mother. I 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.640 lived with her, and when war began. I grew up 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.600 in World War two, and when the war began, Mom 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.039 brought me and my sister to live with her mother 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:49.800 here this house, and it was with my mother's two sisters, 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.599 and her brother came as often as he could from London. 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.560 He was a surgeon. He had to deal with the 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.320 victims of the blitz. You know, was bomb day after 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.440 day after day. So I was just surrounded by this 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:10.000 supportive family of extraordinary people, and I didn't care what 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.520 the outside world said the reason I take the se 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.760 message around the world what my mother said to me. 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.160 Hundreds of young people have written to me or said 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.240 to me, Jane, I wondered, thank you because you taught me. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.240 Because you did it, I can do it too. That's 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.560 a beautiful message, and it's amazing to hear it from you, 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.160 especially with your life journey, and I mean living through 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.479 World War Two as well, and just that whole period 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.560 of your life that you've been through. I love that 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:45.039 you're sharing that message, Jane. I think it's such a brilliant, brilliant, 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:51.040 brilliant voice that we all need to hear today. And unfortunately, 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.359 it seems that the world is always dealing with a 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.080 new set of critics, more discouragement, and a new set 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.359 of cynicism or skepticism, and we need voices like yours 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.600 that continue to break them down and help inspire us 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.640 to think differently. I'm very grateful I grew up in 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.799 the war because I learned to take nothing for granted. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.760 You know, everything was ration food and clothes and petrol everything, 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.360 And you know, wasting food was something we wouldn't have 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.000 dreamed of. If something fell on the floor, you at 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.760 it anyway, and nothing was wasted, nothing, and you didn't 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:31.719 even take life for granted because your family's friends were dying. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.640 So growing up in the war I think helped to 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.120 make me what I am without any question. Yeah, how 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.160 do how do we process that today? When you know 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.520 my generation and obviously younger generations, we're not growing up 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.280 at that time, And sometimes people feel guilty. They feel well, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.120 I haven't had that experience, so I don't know how 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.240 to live with that gratitude or not take things for granted, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.360 or sometimes people feel well, I've got other problems today. 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:05.359 How do you recommend people today process that gift and 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.320 opportunities that we have today. Well, I think actually we're 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.720 living through a war right now. I lived through the 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:18.120 war with the Nazi Germans. This war is against nature, 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.880 and I think people need to realize that we're part 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.960 of the natural world, we're not separate from it, and 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:31.240 we shouldn't take nature's bounty for granted because in some places, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.560 because of this crazy idea that we can have unlimited 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:39.440 economic development on a planet with finite natural resources, already 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.680 in some places they're being used up faster than nature 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:49.680 can replenish them. So once young people understand this, they 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.160 too can learn not to take nature's bounty for granted, 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.280 because it won't go on forever unless we develop a 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.480 different relationship with mother Nature. I mean, Jane, you've probably 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:07.960 seen across the decades the war as you describe it, 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.360 Has the war got better, has it got worse? Wherever 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.760 you see the victims of the war is what have 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.760 been the greatest losses of this war as you described 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.480 it well? That you know, on the plus side, there's 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.520 a growing awareness, and I think that's been helped by 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.920 the pandemic, quite honestly, because you know, people have when 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.280 you know, there was a brief period of time when 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.120 industry closed down, there was less traffic, when countries went 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:41.920 into shutdown, and you can imagine in some cities where 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.240 the air was polluted and there was just traffic and cement, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.360 they got a little glimpse of how things should be, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.800 like looking up and seek stars bright in the night 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.040 sky instead of through a haze of pollution or even 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.280 not at all, and hearing birds they're always there, but 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:06.199 they couldn't hear them because of the traffic. So it's 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.840 woken people up to how the world could be and 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.800 should be, and they won't want to go back to 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.960 that level of pollution and noise. And so that's a 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.760 sign of hope that more young people are understanding we 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.080 need to change this somehow, somehow, we need to get 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:30.120 back to a better relationship with mother nature. What are 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.640 some of the simple and practical things you think that 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.080 people can do in their own homes and their own 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.120 spaces to start that journey. What would you recommend to them? 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.320 If people are saying, you know, I see that, Jane, 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:43.560 I do see that. I do see I prefer it 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.840 when the world is impoluted. I do see that we 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.040 are taking nature for granted. But what do I do? 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.840 What can I do? If I do one thing? How's 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.240 that going to help? When people have that mentality, how 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.160 do you respond to that? Well, it's basically it's more 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.000 than just one thing that I don't think there's any 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.160 one thing. It's a whole plethora of things. And the 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.800 main thing for young people is to help them understand 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:13.240 and adults too. Every single day, every single one of 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.960 us makes some impact on the planet, and unless we're 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.560 living in dire poverty, which is another subject, then we 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.520 have a choice as to what sort of impact we make. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:32.040 For example, what do we buy? Ask ourselves it did 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.199 as production harm the environment? Did it lead to cruelty 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:42.480 to animals? Is it cheap because of unfair wages? If so, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.000 don't buy it. And then the companies and it's happening, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:52.080 will gradually realize that consumer pressure is changing the way 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:58.640 they operate. And so it's for young people. This program 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.480 we have for young people, Roots and Shoots. They sit 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:07.520 down together in their group and they talk about the 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.400 things they care about. Some will care about the environment, 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.520 some will care about the way we treat animals. Some 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.080 will care about what's happening to people. And they choose 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.480 a project, work out what they can do, roll up 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.680 their sleeves, get out and take action. But they share 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.920 what they do because it's all interconnected, you know. I 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.280 learned that in the rainforest. And so when young people 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.079 take action like that, they actually see that they're making 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.760 a difference. They see that, yes, they can make clean 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.920 water in a stream that was polluted, and then they realize, well, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.160 in these other because we're in sixty five countries now, 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.640 in these other countries, young people are cleaning up streams 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.680 as well. It's not just us, Other people care too. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.840 We're part of a growing community of youth that wants 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.840 to interact with nature in a new way because of 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.079 all the harm that our previous generations have inflicted on 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.439 poor old nature. Can you give me an example, Jane, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:19.480 of a very human or special moment that you've had 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.000 interacting with nature. I'm sure there's so many that you've 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.079 had over the years. I'd love you to just remember 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:29.520 one for us where nature felt truly alive to you, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.720 where you experience nature's abundance and connection to us and 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:38.320 our interconnectedness. Because I think, like you said, you know, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.959 I was very fortunate. I lived as a month for 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.840 three years in India, and we lived on a sustainable 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:48.560 farm that we managed and created and developed. And I 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.360 got to see where food comes from and how water 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.319 is cleaned, and I got to see how trees are 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.800 planted and grown, and we made mud bricks, and I 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.880 got to see how long it took to make one 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.679 brick that would be dried by the sand, and we 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.960 went through that process. And I went through that for 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.080 three years in my twenties, from the age of around 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:14.000 twenty one to twenty four. And for me, seeing that firsthand, 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.400 I started to realize I had no clue where my 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.640 food came from, where my shelter came from, where my 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.160 water or my clothes came from. Growing up in London, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.839 where I was born and raised. Yeah, and that those 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 experiences made nature feel so close to me and so 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.120 much a part of me. Could you share one of 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.000 your I'm sure you have so many, but if there's 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.240 one that you could remember, whether it's with an animal, 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.920 whether it's with a plant, whether it's in a rainforest, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.640 wherever it may be, Oh gosh, you know, you're right. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.120 I've got so many, so many, but one that I 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:50.720 think is worth sharing was with a chimpanzee, my very 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.120 very special chimpanzee, David Graybeard. When I got to Gombi 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.880 and I was twenty six, nobody had studied while chimpanzee 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:03.920 is nobody. And the big problem I had they were 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.160 they're very conservative and they take one look at this 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.800 peculiar white ape and run away. I only had money 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.640 for six months, so you know I would I be 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:21.000 able to get their trust in time. So fortunately, David Graybeard, 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.560 for some reason, was less afraid than the others. And 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.640 by the way, it was David Graybeard who showed me 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.560 that chimpanzees can use and make tools. When he showed 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:37.960 me fishing for termites with stems and twigs, which previously 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.120 was thought to be, you know, only humans were able 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.080 to use and make tools. But leave that aside. He'd 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.280 just begun to allow me to follow him. And I 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.640 was following him in the forest, and I lost him. 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.080 I thought I had, because he went through a tangled 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.680 thicket of thorny vegetation. Easy for him, but for me. 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.360 You know, I got tangled up with my hair and 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.760 my sandals. Thought i'd lost it. Never might I'll see 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.000 him another day. But when I got through the tangle, 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.080 there he was sitting. He was looking back. I mean 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.640 it honestly looked as though he was waiting for me. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.640 I can't imagine he was, but he might have been. 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.280 So I sat near him, and on the ground was 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.440 a ripe red palm nut, which chimps love at fruit 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.720 of the oil nut palm. So I picked it up 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.120 and held it out towards him on my hand, and 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:39.400 he turned his face away, So I perhaps cheekily put 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.000 my hand a bit closer, and he turned round. He 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.920 looked directly into my eyes. He reached out and he 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:52.760 took that nut, but dropped it, bent very gently squeezed 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.880 my fingers, and that is how chimpanzees reassured each other. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.800 So in that moment, there was a connection between us 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:07.240 based on a language of gesture that must have predated 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:13.120 human spoken language. He understood that my motive was good, 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.600 but he really didn't want that art and I understood 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:20.800 that too. So it was a moment of real connection 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.560 between me an absolutely wild animal who'd had no connection 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.920 with people before. And I think it, I think it 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.160 changed my life. That's incredible. Why thank you so much 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.520 sharing that. That's that's probably one of my favorite ones. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.960 And it's such a it's such a beautiful example. I recently, 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.400 just this weekend, I watched The Octopus Teacher on Netflix. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.480 I'm not sure. Wonderful. Yeah, it was so wonderful, wasn't it. Yeah, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.520 me and my friends and my wife sat down and 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.400 watched it together, and not only was the cinematography and 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.440 videography stunning, it was just such a beautiful example of 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.920 what you just shared that human can action with between 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.920 a human and an octopus, It's such an incredible way 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.440 of seeing that come to I'm sure you know we're 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.480 going to see that more and more, as hopefully we 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.160 get more entwined with nature. I want to speak about 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.920 this incredible conversation book, The Book of Hope, Survival Guide 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.240 for Trying Times. I don't feel there could have been 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:29.200 a more timely moment for this book to be coming 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.359 into our lives. And I would encourage everyone who's listening 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.200 and watching to go and order a copy of this 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.639 book because it's the book we've been waiting for. It's 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.439 the book we've been hoping for. I think a lot 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.200 of us have been looking for navigation during this time. 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.280 We've been looking for direction and guidance and understanding at 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.880 this time, and I really do believe that The Book 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.399 of Hope, a Survival Guide for Trying Times, is the 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.600 book that's going to help us do that. I wanted 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.200 to ask you, Jane, when you look at the history 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.000 of hope, if we look at the history of humans 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.639 needing hope, you've lived through times when people would have 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.439 said there is no hope. Yet there was hope that 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:12.040 was found and it changed things again. Today we hear 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.439 that rhetoric there's no hope, everything's hopeless. Everything's tell us 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.680 about finding hope. Historically, at difficult times and how hard 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.080 it was, and then the same now today. Well I think, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.480 you know, I go back to the war again, growing 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.640 up in the war, because there were a period when 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.280 Britain stood alone against the might of Nazi Germany, and 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.320 Britain was not prepared for war because Chamberlain had wanted 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.760 to capitulate, and you know there was Churchill saying, no, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.080 we have to fight these Nazis. We don't want to 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.719 be overrun by this horrible rhetoric of Theirs. You know, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:57.159 it was basically Churchill. So there we were Britain, little Britain, 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.040 and we were so unprepared. I'm living in the south 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.159 of England. The sea is just there and it was 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.680 a landing place that you know, Nazi troops were going 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.400 to land quite near us. Do you know what our 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:17.400 protection was a bit of scaffolding out in the sea 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.399 and a bit of barbed wire. That was it, you know. 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.200 But Churchill was rousing the British people, saying we will 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.400 not be overrun, we will never give in. We will 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.600 fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.760 the woods. I think he was heard to as thunderous 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.679 applause came out. He was heard to turn aside to 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.119 one of the people near him and say, and we'll 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.840 fight them with the butt ends are broken bottles, because 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.760 that's bloody well all we've got. Do you have that 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.159 great British sense of humor? So you know, okay, living 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.440 through a time when it totally seemed hopeless, how could 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:02.119 we survive? And then we our air force? And again 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.160 Churchill saying, never in the history of mankind has so 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.200 much been owed by so many to so few. Because 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.320 these young men they went out and they got killed, 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.520 They got killed, they got killed, but they went on volunteering. 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.960 And you know, when you grew up with this sort 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.320 of thing going on around you, and the way that 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.520 people in London during the Blitz when every night they 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.520 were bombed. Every night people lost their homes and lost 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.280 their lives. And my uncle was working in the big hospital. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.640 They're treating all these victims of the bombing. And yet 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.080 the people there, they got together, they had the sense 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.080 of humor and they managed to pull together and not 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.720 give in. So what you couldn't have had a better 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.800 a better lesson for me in hope. And you know, 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.080 in this book I talk about the reasons for hope. 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.000 The energy of young people when they know the problem 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.399 and you empower them to take action, and the resilience 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.639 of nature. We destroy a place utterly, but give nature time, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.399 maybe some help, it will come back again. And then 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.720 this extraordinary intellect that we have, we haven't used it wisely. 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.880 We haven't always been wise at all. We don't deserve 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:32.240 the title of Homo sapiens the wise ape, because we've 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.440 been destroying our only home, because there's been a disconnect 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.840 I think between this clever brain and the human heart. 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.720 I love the way we poetically put love and compassion 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.000 into the human heart. I don't know why, but anyway, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.520 that's what we did. And then finally, this indomitable human 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.680 spirit that won't give in and so often succeeds. How 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.680 can you not have hope? Yeah, thank you so much. 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.400 I can't wait to dive into each of those. As 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.320 we go through the interview, I wanted to ask you, 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.800 Jane about you know, so many people have lost their 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:15.720 hope during the pandemic, and the pandemic broke people down, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:20.200 it shattered their resilience. How do you think people will 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:22.840 be able to bring back that hope that they lost 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.080 in the pandemic? How do How do we do that? 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.520 How we do it? I think, you know, one of 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.160 the big problems is that the media gives so much 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:37.000 attention to everything negative. And yeah, they have to, we 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.439 need to know. But if you think during the pandemic 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.320 of the stories of courage and bravery and self sacrifice, 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.399 people losing their lives to treat sick people, you know, 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:54.840 this gives you such a feeling of how amazing humans 0:22:55.119 --> 0:23:00.119 actually are, and that in itself is enough to of 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:02.520 people hope. But then when you come to all the 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.720 people who've lost their jobs living in poverty, the only 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.720 way to give them hope is to help them. I mean, 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:14.720 if you are living where every day you went out 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:17.359 to work and you've got just enough money to feed 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.160 yourself and your family, unfair wages meant you could never 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.840 save so those people, it's very hard to see how 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:29.639 they'll regain hope unless we help them. On the other hand, 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.320 there are people in those situations who somehow manage to 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.280 rise above it and just get this thing. I'm not 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:40.439 going to give in. I will find a way to 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.840 make a living and will do something, even if it's 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.960 something menial, just to get me through this, to enable 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:52.320 me to feed my family and share those stories. It 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:57.639 is possible. Not easy, but it is possible because of 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:03.480 this indomitable human spirit. Absolutely. And how do you really 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:05.679 define hope? And what would you say is the difference 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.960 between hope and belief? I think that's a really important 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:13.439 conversation to have because I think often we confuse that. 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.719 So how do you define hope and what's the difference 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.240 between a hope and belief? Well, hope. You know, some 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:23.840 people feel it's very passive. Well I'm okay, I hope 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:25.879 it's going to be okay, and they don't do anything. 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:30.320 To me, hope is about action. I hope that I 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.600 can make a difference, but I won't make a difference 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.520 unless I take action. That I think is to me 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.920 what hope is all about. And the tragedy is that 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:46.560 if we lose hope, then we sink into apathy. Because 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.000 if you don't think your actions are going to make 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:53.680 a difference, even a small difference, why bother? Why do anything? 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.560 Just give up, eat drink and be merry, but tomorrow 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:00.159 we die if you're in a position to buy the 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:04.919 food and the drink to be merry. But you know, 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:10.040 so that to me, hope is all about taking action 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:16.959 and faith, well faith. You know, I got very very 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:22.919 angry a little while ago with Richard Dawkins, who I 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:26.919 don't know if you know his name, but he's a 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:31.280