Speaker 1: Guess what will what's that man? Go? So do you
Speaker 1: remember ao hell? Like, did you or your friends ever
Speaker 1: use this? I mean, I know a O L. I
Speaker 1: can't say I remember ao LL. Right. So ao hell
Speaker 1: was kind of a hacking program you could use in
Speaker 1: the early days of the Internet. And this was back
Speaker 1: when I was like twelve or thirteen. I mean I
Speaker 1: never had it, like I was never a great programmer
Speaker 1: super into that side of the internet, like I was
Speaker 1: too busy reading in Carter but right, but sometimes I'd
Speaker 1: go over to my friend's houses and watched them play
Speaker 1: with it. And the thing is, you could cause all
Speaker 1: sorts of chaos with it, Like you could log on
Speaker 1: for free and uh this is when a L was
Speaker 1: charging you by the minute, and you could do various pranks.
Speaker 1: But one of the least used and most powerful things
Speaker 1: you could do was create a user name with a
Speaker 1: O L in it. What do you mean, like you
Speaker 1: you couldn't use AOL in your name? No, So that
Speaker 1: was one of the things that AL used to protect itself.
Speaker 1: But through ao hell, you could sign up as like
Speaker 1: a O L cop thirteen or a O L Guide
Speaker 1: twenty six, and you could make yourself to see even
Speaker 1: like this legit agent of the company, and my friends
Speaker 1: used to use this mercilessly. What were they doing, like
Speaker 1: stealing credit cards or what I mean, we're not thieves,
Speaker 1: Like my friends would use it for pranks. So so often,
Speaker 1: like my power would go into a chat room where
Speaker 1: it was clear that like thirteen year old boys were
Speaker 1: trading photos of like scantily clad ladies, and and he'd say,
Speaker 1: this is a O L cop thirteen, You've been busted.
Speaker 1: And then he'd say, unless you write me a one
Speaker 1: page apology for your actions, your parents will be notified
Speaker 1: and your account will be suspended. And by the end
Speaker 1: of the by the end of the summer, you have
Speaker 1: like a binder full of weird apologies from kids saying
Speaker 1: they'd never trade bikini photos online again and just don't
Speaker 1: tell their parents because they're supposed to be playing math games.
Speaker 1: I mean, that is ruthless, I know, but the whole
Speaker 1: thing did make me wonder, like how much of our
Speaker 1: history is still online and how much does the internet
Speaker 1: know about all of us? And that's what today's episode
Speaker 1: it's all about. Hey, their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part
Speaker 1: Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as always, I'm joined
Speaker 1: by my good friend Man Gueshow Ticketer, and on the
Speaker 1: other side of the soundproof glasses our friend and producer
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. I don't know if you notice of, but
Speaker 1: Tristan seems to be smirking today. Why is he so smirky? Smirks?
Speaker 1: Good job, Tristan, I guess he's in a good mood.
Speaker 1: But all right, so it's not Halloween yet, but today
Speaker 1: we're gonna be exploring a topic that many of us
Speaker 1: do find pretty creepy, and and that's asking the question,
Speaker 1: what exactly does the Internet know about us? And so
Speaker 1: to find out, we've been combing through user agreements just
Speaker 1: to see what sort of personal information that we willingly
Speaker 1: sign away. You know, these are two our favorite apps
Speaker 1: and websites. And we'll also take a look behind the
Speaker 1: digital curtain of the ad tracking industry, you know, just
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit about how much of our
Speaker 1: online habits reveal about who we are in the real world.
Speaker 1: And this was actually a topic suggested by a listener
Speaker 1: after a trip to the grocery store, and she had
Speaker 1: explained that she had purchased a new type of soft
Speaker 1: drink and then she'd never heard of this drink before,
Speaker 1: and she spotted it there, picked it up, bought it,
Speaker 1: went home. She had never looked it up on her phone,
Speaker 1: never looked it up on her computer. But then later
Speaker 1: she found herself getting ads for this same soft drink,
Speaker 1: and so she was wondering do these offline purchases somehow
Speaker 1: connect with what she's seeing online? And so we're gonna
Speaker 1: be looking into questions like this. But I should take
Speaker 1: a second to say that if you have a question
Speaker 1: you'd like us to consider on a future episode, don't
Speaker 1: forget to reach out to us here. We we'd love
Speaker 1: to hear from you. It's part time genius at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and on our seven fact hot
Speaker 1: line one eight four four pt genius. It is is
Speaker 1: still seven right around the clock. That's amazing. There aren't
Speaker 1: many fact hot lines that seven. It's true, It's true,
Speaker 1: all right. Well, this is also a special up so
Speaker 1: because we're teaming up with one of our favorite podcasts
Speaker 1: to tackle two different but certainly related topics. So that's
Speaker 1: that's right. To help us cope with some of the
Speaker 1: unsettling secrets of online privacy, will be joined by some
Speaker 1: of our favorite people, Ben Bolan, Noel Brown, and Matt Frederick.
Speaker 1: They've joined us on the show before, but as a reminder,
Speaker 1: they're the host of the awesome podcast Stuff they Don't
Speaker 1: Want You to Know, and and this week the guys
Speaker 1: did an episode on whether it's possible to wipe your
Speaker 1: history from the web. So we'll talk to them and
Speaker 1: see if they have any tips they can pass along
Speaker 1: for how to get a little bit of privacy on
Speaker 1: the Internet. But if you're interested in this topic, be
Speaker 1: sure to check out today's episode of Stuff they Don't
Speaker 1: Want You To Know. I love what those guys do.
Speaker 1: They really are some of our favorite people. I know
Speaker 1: sometimes we say that, but they actually are some of
Speaker 1: our favorite people. All them, they're all good guys, all right.
Speaker 1: So I thought we could start with just a general
Speaker 1: overview of what web tracking is and and how it works.
Speaker 1: And so to cover the first part of that, you know,
Speaker 1: just just stop and think about the time you've googled
Speaker 1: something like, you know, things to do in Denver, and
Speaker 1: then the next time you've used Google, you've got a
Speaker 1: bunch of ads that that you know, are trying to
Speaker 1: convince you to book a flight to Denver or something.
Speaker 1: Like that. Or maybe you've watched a Star Wars trailer
Speaker 1: on YouTube and then you sign on to Facebook later
Speaker 1: that night and your news feed contains a target ad
Speaker 1: for a brand new Star Wars video game. And I
Speaker 1: think most of us know by now that those early
Speaker 1: appropriate ads they aren't by chance, and they're the result
Speaker 1: of web tracking, which is it's one a series of companies.
Speaker 1: They work together, they share information, They've compiled all this
Speaker 1: information on consumers, and this is for the sake of
Speaker 1: tailoring advertisements to suit specific people. So, Mango, I know
Speaker 1: you engab did a bit of digging on this, and
Speaker 1: so why don't you give us a breakdown on on
Speaker 1: how all of this works. Sure? Well, there are actually
Speaker 1: a few different methods that companies used to gather information
Speaker 1: about people online, and one of them is this process
Speaker 1: called canvas fingerprinting. Basically, websites have this feature written into
Speaker 1: their script so that when you visit the site and
Speaker 1: asked your browser to draw a hidden line of text
Speaker 1: or even a three D image, And because of differences
Speaker 1: between browsers and operating systems and computer hardware, the invisible
Speaker 1: image that each device draws will be different. So I
Speaker 1: guess this is where the fingerprinting part comes in exactly. So,
Speaker 1: so the sites that use this method can then share
Speaker 1: these device fingerprints with third party advertising companies and and
Speaker 1: they in turn can use them to identify when and
Speaker 1: how often the same user of the same device returns
Speaker 1: to this site, as well as which other sites they're
Speaker 1: visiting in between. All Right, so you're saying that these
Speaker 1: techniques like canvas fingerprinting, which I've actually never heard that
Speaker 1: term before, but they allow companies to track your browsing
Speaker 1: history all across the internet. So it's not just the
Speaker 1: site where you first have this image drawn, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because the advertisers can see these fingerprints on any site
Speaker 1: that allows them. So by looking for which sites the
Speaker 1: fingerprints show up on, the advertiser can start to get
Speaker 1: an idea of who this user is and which kinds
Speaker 1: of products of services they might be most interested in. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm curious about this. So these invisible trackers, they're they're
Speaker 1: hidden on websites, and they kind of sound like web cookies,
Speaker 1: which we we've all heard of before. Our cookies a
Speaker 1: form of this same thing. Yeah, so that's why I
Speaker 1: thought too. But cookies are these small pieces of data
Speaker 1: that a website stores on the browser, and then recalls
Speaker 1: whenever you return to that specific site. So cookies are
Speaker 1: how your favorite websites remember your name or address, or
Speaker 1: your password, what's in your shopping cart, like all that stuff.
Speaker 1: So they're definitely related to gathering and storing information about users,
Speaker 1: but they aren't directly related to advertising on their own.
Speaker 1: But I do remember Gape saying something about that. Advertisers
Speaker 1: are still interested in cookies today. They find ways to
Speaker 1: make use of them. There's this other process called cookie sinking.
Speaker 1: It's a way that lets companies share the information they've
Speaker 1: gathered about you through cookies, so they can trade notes
Speaker 1: to come up with a clearer picture of who you are.
Speaker 1: All right, So wait, just a method Because all these
Speaker 1: data companies they collect and they share this information, but
Speaker 1: it's it's supposed to be anonymous, right, Like, like based
Speaker 1: on your phone or your computer, they might know where
Speaker 1: you live, or what town you live in, or maybe
Speaker 1: even how old you are, but they still don't know
Speaker 1: your real name or anything too personal out to do
Speaker 1: they Well, it's anonymous to a point. Like if someone
Speaker 1: really wanted to, it's entirely possible to connect someone's anonymous
Speaker 1: cookie data with their real world identity. I mean, we
Speaker 1: see this kind of thing all the time with cases
Speaker 1: of identity theft and hack social media profiles. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's such a plausible danger that computer scientists don't even
Speaker 1: use the term anonymous anymore. Instead, they say that companies
Speaker 1: gather pseudonymous data on their users. Like the whole point
Speaker 1: is that none of us are even anonymous online anymore.
Speaker 1: Like we've really just been given a pseudonym in the
Speaker 1: form of like these device fingerprints or these assigned numbers
Speaker 1: or some other kind of digital trace, which is all
Speaker 1: a little bit creepy. But I mean there's still one
Speaker 1: thing I don't understand, and that's this connection between online
Speaker 1: advertising and the spending we do in physical store. So
Speaker 1: I kind of want to back up to that first
Speaker 1: question that we asked at the very beginning of this,
Speaker 1: and that's whether the Internet knew my friend had bought
Speaker 1: that pack of soda. I mean, it sort of feels
Speaker 1: like it had to know this, right, I Mean, otherwise,
Speaker 1: why after it for the first time, that she suddenly
Speaker 1: have Facebook ads recommending the same product to her. I know,
Speaker 1: And honestly, that's a really good question. I want to know.
Speaker 1: But but before that, I want to know what soda
Speaker 1: she bought. What's the new I can't remember. We gotta
Speaker 1: find out. It's gonna be a big one. Hopefully they'll
Speaker 1: be a sponsor. But it is, you know, I wish
Speaker 1: you could say it's for incidence. It's you know, it
Speaker 1: feels a little strange that she bought the soda for
Speaker 1: the first time, and and maybe that was the same
Speaker 1: day that this big marketing push happened. But you know, realistically,
Speaker 1: the odds were against that. I mean, the major data
Speaker 1: companies gather an insane amount of information about their users.
Speaker 1: And most folks know that search engines like Google or
Speaker 1: Bing or Yahoo like they keep track of what we
Speaker 1: search for, but big data's reach goes so much further. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, like Google not only knows where you've traveled
Speaker 1: thanks to Google Maps and the GPS tracking functions and
Speaker 1: Android phones, but they also know how fast you were
Speaker 1: going on the way there, and the same goes for
Speaker 1: Apple and their iPhone. Of course, this means they likely
Speaker 1: know where you live and work too, since those are
Speaker 1: the places that you're traveling between the most often. You know.
Speaker 1: But still, even if my phone and by extension Google
Speaker 1: or Apple. You know, they knew I was at the
Speaker 1: grocery store, how would they know what I bought? And
Speaker 1: then and then how would Facebook find out about that?
Speaker 1: So Gave did some heavy lifting on this and and
Speaker 1: uh and in his research on Facebook, it turns out
Speaker 1: they're actually ahead of the curve in terms of the
Speaker 1: depth of data they collect on their users, as well
Speaker 1: as in how they collect it. And the key to
Speaker 1: that is an advertising tool called Atlas that the company
Speaker 1: unveiled back in two thousand fourteen. So, according to the
Speaker 1: vice president of ad Tech of Facebook, the Atlas system
Speaker 1: can match the phone numbers and email addresses of Facebook
Speaker 1: users with the phone numbers and email addresses that consumers
Speaker 1: provide in physical stores. All right, So when the stores
Speaker 1: ask for our email addresses or phone numbers that check out,
Speaker 1: it's so that they can then sell that information to Facebook.
Speaker 1: Is that that's the only reason they do this, well
Speaker 1: kind of, I mean, sometimes that info is used for
Speaker 1: that particular doors marketing purposes, you know, to email you
Speaker 1: their monthly newsletter or coupons or whatever. But they're all
Speaker 1: kinds of data collection companies that act as middlemen between
Speaker 1: retail stores and online platforms. So, for instance, Facebook partners
Speaker 1: with a company called Data Logics to get all its
Speaker 1: store related info. Okay, so I got it. So I
Speaker 1: scanned my grocery store club card, or I gave the
Speaker 1: cashier my email address, and that information, along with the
Speaker 1: purchase connected to it, was then passed along the Data Logics,
Speaker 1: who then shared it with Facebook's advertising system, which you've
Speaker 1: told us is called Atlas. That's right, exactly, So Atlas
Speaker 1: knew that the person with your email address purchased a
Speaker 1: new kind of soda that store, and from there, all
Speaker 1: I had to do was compare that address with the
Speaker 1: one you've linked to your Facebook account and presto, Like
Speaker 1: now Facebook knows just what kind of ad you're likely
Speaker 1: to respond to in your news feed. After all, you've
Speaker 1: already bought that soda once. You know. It's weird because
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm being clever sometimes when I used
Speaker 1: this email address that I had never used for like
Speaker 1: real purposes or whatever, you know, to have to a
Speaker 1: cashier or to sign up for something account right product
Speaker 1: you account. But I'm using the same one for all
Speaker 1: of them, so they're still able to make this connection.
Speaker 1: It's probably the same one that's on my Facebook account,
Speaker 1: you know, So I don't know. I guess. I guess.
Speaker 1: It is a pretty ingenious system from a marketing perspective,
Speaker 1: but you know, not something that's going to generate all
Speaker 1: this enthusiasm or goodwill among the public, at least I
Speaker 1: wouldn't think. Yeah. But here's the creepous part, and and
Speaker 1: that's that Facebook can do the same with ads that
Speaker 1: aren't shown on Facebook. I don't even know what that means.
Speaker 1: So Atlas was made to offer ads on all kinds
Speaker 1: of different websites, not just Facebook, so the company can
Speaker 1: match real world purchases to any ads source from the
Speaker 1: Atlas network, no matter which side it appears on. That's
Speaker 1: not all, though. Facebook can also keep track of its
Speaker 1: users even when they're logged off of the platform. So
Speaker 1: anytime you load a web page that features a Facebook
Speaker 1: like or share button, the company gets in alert about
Speaker 1: who's looking and where, which is basically like every page
Speaker 1: out there internet. It's something I had not thought about.
Speaker 1: I mean, so many of these tracking things they're not
Speaker 1: that surprising, but the the depth of it, I think
Speaker 1: is what's so surprising to me, and that all of
Speaker 1: this seems to happen under the radar. I mean, I
Speaker 1: do feel like most of us have this vague awareness
Speaker 1: of web cookies and targeted advertising and all those sorts
Speaker 1: of things, But I don't know, it's still a little
Speaker 1: unsettling when you start to look into the specifics and
Speaker 1: just how deep it all goes totally. And it only
Speaker 1: gets more unnerving when you remember that Facebook doesn't exist
Speaker 1: in a vacuum. I mean, companies like Twitter and Google like,
Speaker 1: they've all taken notice and developed their own atlas like approaches,
Speaker 1: and uh disability to prove the effectiveness of an online
Speaker 1: ad gives them more bargaining power with potential clients, which
Speaker 1: means the sale and trade of our data that's only
Speaker 1: going to increase from here. All right, Well, well, maybe
Speaker 1: our friends at Stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 1: I have some ideas for how to shut off the
Speaker 1: information valves that that are telling these companies so much
Speaker 1: about our lives. So so why don't we go ahead
Speaker 1: and bring them into the studio. Okay, So in this
Speaker 1: episode we've been talking about all the things the Internet
Speaker 1: knows about us, and as we mentioned at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the show, our friends over at Stuff they don't
Speaker 1: want you to know, are actually talking about how to
Speaker 1: remove that information off of the web or or wherever
Speaker 1: it is sitting. And we're joined by two thirds of
Speaker 1: the crew, Ben Bulling and Matt Frederick. Welcome to Part
Speaker 1: Time Genius. Yeah, thanks so much, you guys. We were
Speaker 1: really excited to explore this, and uh, it's fascinating, if
Speaker 1: a little bit unsettling, a little bit a lot of it.
Speaker 1: Thank you, even even hearing just tidbits from you guys
Speaker 1: as you're talking about putting the episode together. I typically
Speaker 1: don't consider myself a paranoid person, but it was hard
Speaker 1: not to go down that path. I think I'm okay.
Speaker 1: But if you could give us just a little bit
Speaker 1: of an overview of what you guys have been looking
Speaker 1: into for the episode. Sure, we looked at a pretty
Speaker 1: basic question, or so we thought in the beginning, which
Speaker 1: was can you delete your online footprint, your your personal data.
Speaker 1: We we stumbled on the phrase the digital you, because
Speaker 1: there's there's so much information and so many leavings of
Speaker 1: all your time brushing through the internet, right Uh, And
Speaker 1: what we found was that there is no silver bullet,
Speaker 1: and uh, you must be very very careful with the
Speaker 1: types of terms that are used by various online entities,
Speaker 1: whether they are a private or a public organization. Yeah,
Speaker 1: specifically terms of services. What been is talking about here,
Speaker 1: that little thing that you go, yeah, I accept that
Speaker 1: you scroll through. Maybe maybe it makes you scroll to
Speaker 1: the bottom of the page, just hit it and go okay.
Speaker 1: Has anyone ever read an entire terms of service? I
Speaker 1: mean that's the that's the whole thing, right, Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1: I did once when my cable was out if pager
Speaker 1: so you could kind of get through. It wasn't even
Speaker 1: in my house, it was at someone else's house. If
Speaker 1: I had brought a book, I wouldn't have read the
Speaker 1: terms made for a much smarter digital you. So envious
Speaker 1: of your digital you. So one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: that I heard you guys talking about was about your
Speaker 1: A O L account and Matt, you are actually looking
Speaker 1: to go back and delete or cancel your ao L account.
Speaker 1: I was like, what are we having this conversation? So
Speaker 1: let's go back to two thousand five six Old Matt
Speaker 1: Frederick is in a band, and every band at that time,
Speaker 1: what do they have? My Okay? Well, also my my
Speaker 1: email since n seven has been through a O L
Speaker 1: at this time, So for some reason, I just stuck
Speaker 1: with A O L because my parents had it and
Speaker 1: I just kept going with it. Anyway, my my Space
Speaker 1: page was linked to my A o L account, so
Speaker 1: in order to like find my old password and reset
Speaker 1: it for my Space, had to get in my AOL
Speaker 1: email and then realized this is still here now the
Speaker 1: one good thing and my ex girlfriend is still email. Well,
Speaker 1: the one good thing is that the A o L service,
Speaker 1: if you have a free account, they disable your account
Speaker 1: after I think a hundred eighty days of an activity
Speaker 1: that you you're not getting emails anymore, but it's still
Speaker 1: there and if anyone wanted to get in there, and
Speaker 1: my personal information is still inside the profile, which made
Speaker 1: me super nervous because I haven't looked at it since then. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you try and delete the thing. To get rid of
Speaker 1: the A o L and the my Space my Space
Speaker 1: relatively easy. But the A O L one they're supposed
Speaker 1: to be a cancel your account little icon that you
Speaker 1: can click on in this one specific area. It wasn't
Speaker 1: there on the three browsers that I attempted to use,
Speaker 1: and maybe a little nervous, so I called up a
Speaker 1: o L with my phone? Can you believe that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got ahold of somebody. He officially deleted it, and uh,
Speaker 1: I can still log in right now, which makes me
Speaker 1: super nervous. We'd like to make fun of you for that,
Speaker 1: but you're looking at two people with a Yahoo and
Speaker 1: uh stategy. We need to pull that up at some
Speaker 1: point to see if it still exists. That's pretty great
Speaker 1: and I'm glad to hear A O L is still
Speaker 1: up to their old tricks. I remember when you used
Speaker 1: to try to cancel after you get the free disc
Speaker 1: and sign up for however many hours, and they were
Speaker 1: just awful when you would call and say that you're
Speaker 1: ready to cancel. I remember, I remember like begging a woman.
Speaker 1: I was like, I know you're reading off a script,
Speaker 1: just like please skip to like mine pages almost in tears,
Speaker 1: and it's very much like a it's it's oddly like
Speaker 1: a breakup. And in many cases, you know, and uh,
Speaker 1: the old adage is true, breaking up is hard to do,
Speaker 1: but in these cases it's um you run into some
Speaker 1: misleading and pernicious things. Right. It's it's a point that
Speaker 1: we've made it on our episodes before that your account,
Speaker 1: your personal information and your use of whatever you know,
Speaker 1: page or whatever app. It's highly valuable to these companies.
Speaker 1: You were talking about it friends, though, One of the
Speaker 1: things you guys talked about was the fact that even
Speaker 1: if you don't have a social media profile, if you
Speaker 1: are in your friends phones or whatever, it may be
Speaker 1: your your phone number, your address, anything like that, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you're not out there and that your
Speaker 1: digital you is still is still out there. So can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about yeah, you're digital. You
Speaker 1: will still exist in perhaps somewhat of a less substantial form. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, if our co host and colleague Noel Brown,
Speaker 1: uh did not have a Facebook for some reason, he's
Speaker 1: actually the most likely of the three of us to
Speaker 1: have a Facebook. You would agree with if Nol didn't
Speaker 1: have a Facebook, but Matt or I had the Facebook
Speaker 1: app on the phone, or one of you guys did
Speaker 1: have the app on your phone, then depending on your
Speaker 1: OS or the type of phone you're using, the app
Speaker 1: will automatically have access to all your contacts, which means
Speaker 1: every phone number, every email that you or your phone touch,
Speaker 1: Which means that if any of us knew Noel Brown,
Speaker 1: then they would already start building sort of a framework
Speaker 1: for him. So they would say, Okay, we know there's
Speaker 1: this guy. His name is Noel Brown, his phone number
Speaker 1: is you know, five five five whatever, and uh, he
Speaker 1: also has this email address, and he knows uh Mango,
Speaker 1: and he knows Will and he knows Matt and he
Speaker 1: knows Ben and they all work together. Therefore he probably
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And this this can come
Speaker 1: from different sources. So even if you have somehow resisted
Speaker 1: social media entirely, if you have, if you have a
Speaker 1: phone number and or an email address and friends, yeah,
Speaker 1: then which are fairly easy requirements to meet, then yeah,
Speaker 1: the odds are overwhelmingly likely that there is some even
Speaker 1: rudimentary version of you online already without your consent before
Speaker 1: we let you go. I'm curious. We don't want to
Speaker 1: give any spoilers because it is a terrific episode and
Speaker 1: I hope everyone will will check it out. But do
Speaker 1: you think you guys will will change your behaviors and
Speaker 1: anyway based on what you've learned and putting together this episode? Well,
Speaker 1: here's the thing, um, for a long time now we
Speaker 1: have changed our behavior is because we've been looking into
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff for a while. All we can
Speaker 1: do is encourage everybody else to do your best to
Speaker 1: just you know, don't give too much away for free.
Speaker 1: And when you think, when you think about all of
Speaker 1: the apps that you use on a daily, weekly, monthly
Speaker 1: basis that you've got on whatever device you use, most
Speaker 1: of them ask you for your contacts. Most of them
Speaker 1: are trying to find out where you're going, what you're doing,
Speaker 1: Take pictures of yourself and all your friends and your
Speaker 1: dog and your family. Just think about it. I did, uh,
Speaker 1: I I did assiduously go through and remove apps on
Speaker 1: my phone until you know, you realize at some level
Speaker 1: you're you become like the kid in the old Dutch
Speaker 1: fairy tale trying to plug up a damn one hole
Speaker 1: at a time. There are other avenues for this information exchange,
Speaker 1: and this means that, uh, for a lot of people
Speaker 1: and for myself included. When I was removing apps, it
Speaker 1: hit me and I thought, am I really making a
Speaker 1: difference or am I just making myself feel better? You
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Alright, Well, I hope all of
Speaker 1: our listeners will hop on over to stuff they don't
Speaker 1: want you to know and check out this episode. Can
Speaker 1: you really erase your digital self. But Matt and Ben,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks. You're
Speaker 1: listening to part Time Genius and we're talking about all
Speaker 1: the creepy things the Internet knows about us, all right, Mega,
Speaker 1: So before the break, we were talking about how the
Speaker 1: purchases we make in physical stores can inform advertisements we
Speaker 1: see later. So there's this blurring of the line between
Speaker 1: the digital world and I don't know, the real world,
Speaker 1: I guess, And and it kind of got me thinking,
Speaker 1: what are some of the other ways that are close
Speaker 1: connection to the web affects our offline lives? Right? Because
Speaker 1: with smartphones, tablets and all the other easy to use
Speaker 1: recording devices we have now, the people of Live to
Speaker 1: day are pretty much guaranteed to be the most self
Speaker 1: documented generation of humans to date, which seems doubly true
Speaker 1: when you add to that the fact that enormous companies
Speaker 1: are now tracking and recording our interests and behaviors and
Speaker 1: everything else for marketing purposes. And I mean, if widespread
Speaker 1: personal documentation has never really been done on this level before,
Speaker 1: you have to assume there will be all kinds of
Speaker 1: interesting social and psychological outcomes from it. You know, for
Speaker 1: better or for worse. Yeah, it's true, and not to
Speaker 1: keep harping on Facebook, but but one of the most
Speaker 1: interesting examples I found for how these digital platforms affect
Speaker 1: our lives has to do with the company's memories algorithms.
Speaker 1: You know where it where it will pop up, You'll
Speaker 1: sign on and in your feed you'll see these memories
Speaker 1: from over the years of the past year or whatever
Speaker 1: it might have been. And so Facebook, you know, uses
Speaker 1: this algorithm to select these pictures and post from our
Speaker 1: past that it then hopes we're most likely to share it,
Speaker 1: which is how they determined that like my yearine review
Speaker 1: is best summed up by like when I was stuffing
Speaker 1: my face with rom in last January, last January, last week,
Speaker 1: whenever it was, I think that's pretty much it. And
Speaker 1: then judging about off and I've seen you at that
Speaker 1: exact scene, I'm gonna say they're not too off base
Speaker 1: with them. But you know, but when you share these memories,
Speaker 1: Facebook selects force. What we're doing is we're helping the
Speaker 1: algorithm learn a little bit more about our preferences and
Speaker 1: and then it can play to these more in the future.
Speaker 1: And do we know at all how this digital memory
Speaker 1: creation might be affecting us. Well. I did come across
Speaker 1: this really interesting articles in Scientific American. It was written
Speaker 1: by Julie Shaw, and it talks a little bit about
Speaker 1: the implications of making forms of social media nostalgia like
Speaker 1: this into a mainstream thing. And here's what she writes.
Speaker 1: She says, by having Facebook choose which events are presented
Speaker 1: as the most meaningful in our lives, it's potentially calling
Speaker 1: the memories the algorithm ignores. Simultaneously, it's reinforcing the memories
Speaker 1: it has chosen, potentially making some memories seem more meaningful
Speaker 1: and memorable than they originally were. Both of these are
Speaker 1: problematic processes that can distort our personal reality. We may
Speaker 1: be helping Facebook learn to optimize its features, but the
Speaker 1: relationship is not symbiotic. Facebook's nostalgia features are messing with
Speaker 1: our memories, which is interesting. But I feel like the
Speaker 1: photos we keep around have always done this. Like have
Speaker 1: you read Susan Sontag's on photography essay? I haven't, and
Speaker 1: I only vaguely remember it from college. But but she
Speaker 1: talked about how the photo you have on your desk
Speaker 1: from your family road trip is a picture of a
Speaker 1: family smiling and in a gorgeous place, right, But in
Speaker 1: capturing that, you're really only showing your most ideal photo.
Speaker 1: But like you're forgetting the hours of bickering in the
Speaker 1: car and and telling your kids to stop fighting, and
Speaker 1: the boredom and all that arguing that happen, and you're
Speaker 1: just focusing on this one kind of manufactured pick where
Speaker 1: everyone's hugging and smiling, right. And it's true. I mean,
Speaker 1: like we sell select the photos that go up on
Speaker 1: social media to such a degree that we're already altering
Speaker 1: our memories, and and Facebook only seems to be putting
Speaker 1: that into hyper drive. I don't know about your family,
Speaker 1: but all we do on our trips this hug and
Speaker 1: smile and pose together. We're always like one inch apart
Speaker 1: from each other. I don't know, Maybe you're right, Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe we're wearing a little too much about this when
Speaker 1: it comes to Facebook, and especially since it might give
Speaker 1: us a case of paranoia, which is definitely something else
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about, because this is another common
Speaker 1: condition that's connected to all this online data tracking. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard not to be paranoid, right, Like
Speaker 1: this is almost universal feeling that our online movements are
Speaker 1: being tracked and recorded, and and because the specifics are
Speaker 1: so hazy, like it's it's just something that like you
Speaker 1: can't get out of your mind. And and so this
Speaker 1: is something that came up a lot during my research.
Speaker 1: For example, I I I read this report about last
Speaker 1: year's Consumer Electronics Show and The Guardian, and it talked
Speaker 1: about how all these companies that make biometrics and tracking
Speaker 1: gadgets have lately found themselves dealing with an entirely new
Speaker 1: clientele and and so who would that be. Well, that's
Speaker 1: the thing. It's like the new customers are ordinary everyday people.
Speaker 1: I mean, previously, the people who are most interested in
Speaker 1: fingerprint scanners for all their like electronic devices and the
Speaker 1: zinc line cases to shield their phones from like the
Speaker 1: electric fields, they were really paranoid. And and they're the
Speaker 1: people that Nellie Bulls of The Guardian refers to as
Speaker 1: the tinfoil hat Brigade. Right, Okay, I think I get it.
Speaker 1: I mean these companies are mostly used by customers who
Speaker 1: have I don't know, dabbled with conspiracy theory or two,
Speaker 1: or perhaps they are a bit untrusting of large corporations
Speaker 1: that monitor them too. Closely. I mean, I think we
Speaker 1: all have an image of that type, I guess exactly.
Speaker 1: But now they're finding the general public is starting to
Speaker 1: feel those same kinds of concerns and and they're taking
Speaker 1: an interest in the products as well, and that totally
Speaker 1: frees these suppliers out. In that Guardian article I mentioned,
Speaker 1: the author describes all these vendors that are pretty uneasy
Speaker 1: at the thought of their whereas being mainstream. So listen
Speaker 1: listen to how the author describes the scene. Quote the
Speaker 1: Personal Security Department at CS, once a quiet overlooked corner
Speaker 1: of the flashy gadget show, was packed and frenzied. This year,
Speaker 1: it's popularity stirred and internal reckoning for the security gadget
Speaker 1: makers who are now central to the conversation about privacy
Speaker 1: and politics. Some longtime sellers are worried about their new buyers. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and maybe for for good reason. Honestly,
Speaker 1: what does it say about society that the average Joe
Speaker 1: is now suddenly taking an interest in these privacy apps
Speaker 1: and the anti surveillance gadgets and all that kind of
Speaker 1: nothing good. It actually makes me think of, you know,
Speaker 1: this new parenting technology that you see all over. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a little bit different, but you've seen this
Speaker 1: stuff and and it's stuff that I'm kind of glad
Speaker 1: didn't exist that when we were, you know, when our
Speaker 1: kids were much younger. But stuff like the smart baby
Speaker 1: beds and infant heart rate readers that I have to
Speaker 1: put parents at ease, and you know, it keeps them
Speaker 1: over informed about every little detail of their little ones health.
Speaker 1: I mean, have you heard of this new robot nanny tech?
Speaker 1: I think Mattel put it out earlier this year, and
Speaker 1: it's called Aristotle. Call it Aristot be so smart. It's
Speaker 1: basically this three version of Amazon's Alexa, but for kids.
Speaker 1: It's got all these high tech features like voice and
Speaker 1: image recognition and live streaming. But what it also does
Speaker 1: is it it watches and it listens and it learns
Speaker 1: from these babies left under its care. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it could help parents keep track
Speaker 1: of stuff like diaper changes and feedings, but it could
Speaker 1: also file away all of that user data for Mattel's
Speaker 1: future commercial endeavors. Yeah, so that that's definitely something to
Speaker 1: keep an eye on for sure. But I mean, I
Speaker 1: want to make sure we aren't coming across as like
Speaker 1: ludyte here because I mean, don't get me wrong, they're
Speaker 1: all kinds of you technologies that can make childcare and
Speaker 1: other aspects of parenting much much easier, And the same
Speaker 1: is true for like technologies of for other non kid things.
Speaker 1: But it's just that, like all this information can make
Speaker 1: things more complicated and and leave parents more worried than
Speaker 1: maybe they should be. Yeah, I mean that's true. And
Speaker 1: having all the stat at their fingertips can make parents
Speaker 1: a little paranoid or even obsessed with the things about
Speaker 1: their child that really are no big deal. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just that constant biometric reporting and and these status
Speaker 1: updates that can make even these minor details seem so
Speaker 1: much more grim and dire. Again, I'm so glad this
Speaker 1: stuff didn't exist because I would have totally been that
Speaker 1: paranoid parent. Yeah. And then there's another angle on this
Speaker 1: whole wearable technology smart device trend that that I want
Speaker 1: to make sure we cover. So I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about the Internet of things, and that's the phrase of
Speaker 1: tech developer named Kevin Ashton came up with to describe
Speaker 1: the interconnected network of physical devices and vehicles that electronically
Speaker 1: collect and share data. So I think of everything from
Speaker 1: smartphones to smart refrigerators, robotic vacuums. I mean, the list
Speaker 1: goes on and on, and pretty soon it's going to
Speaker 1: be like every single product you know. And I feel
Speaker 1: like most of us started hearing about this, this Internet
Speaker 1: of things just a few years ago, but it's actually
Speaker 1: an older term at this point. Right. I was reading
Speaker 1: about some of this and it goes back to I
Speaker 1: think the late nineties or so, and this was before
Speaker 1: the smart tech boom of recent years. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: goes back to I think, and and it was definitely
Speaker 1: forward looking. And I remember my friend was telling me
Speaker 1: about it at the time and he said, m I
Speaker 1: T was developing this table cloth that was gonna be
Speaker 1: a smart table cloth. And I was like, how can
Speaker 1: you make a smart table cloth? And he said, basically
Speaker 1: like if you're putting a drink down, like a glass
Speaker 1: of wine at a wrong angle, it'll account for that
Speaker 1: and catch the glass. And he was also talking about
Speaker 1: like umbrellas that would tell you it's about to rain
Speaker 1: and remind you to take him with you. And and
Speaker 1: this sound crazy, but but like flash forward twenty years
Speaker 1: and according to the analysts, said Gartner, of the world
Speaker 1: population is now online and around eight point four billion
Speaker 1: web connected items are in use. Wow, that's a lot
Speaker 1: of devices are especially when you consider that both of
Speaker 1: those numbers they're only going to rise as time goes on.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this growing catalog of the Internet of things,
Speaker 1: and you think about how widespread they are, from cars
Speaker 1: to household appliances or these health monitoring devices we were
Speaker 1: talking about security sensors and all of these fitness trackers
Speaker 1: that everybody seems to be using. And it's not just
Speaker 1: for them. It's like their dogs and their cats and
Speaker 1: their cows and their babies and all of these things.
Speaker 1: So it's just it's everywhere, and it's led to this
Speaker 1: level of connectedness that the world has never seen before.
Speaker 1: And so with that comes this unique brand of paranoia.
Speaker 1: That's right. So the Pew Research Center publishing report earlier
Speaker 1: this year that highlighted the widespread concerns people have about
Speaker 1: cyber text and account hacking and privacy violations related to
Speaker 1: all these smart things, and you know, it's interesting, it's
Speaker 1: it's you know, the very connectedness of the IoT is
Speaker 1: what makes it seem like a liability, and it is
Speaker 1: a liability. Like I was watching this thing on Wired
Speaker 1: and and they showed how like hackers can hack into
Speaker 1: a car on the highway and just slow it down
Speaker 1: to twelve miles per hour. And in fact, I have
Speaker 1: this one friend who won't buy cars from like after
Speaker 1: a certain point in not late eighties or something, because
Speaker 1: he has that same fear. But so, why do you
Speaker 1: think so many of us buy into this idea of
Speaker 1: connecting and monitoring all these different things when you know,
Speaker 1: we do realize that they could be potentially dangerous or
Speaker 1: somehow asking for trouble if we do so. So, I
Speaker 1: don't know, why do we embrace this so wholeheartedly. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's for the same reason most of us don't
Speaker 1: bother changing our privacy settings on Google or even adjusting
Speaker 1: the ad preferences on our Facebook accounts, even though we're
Speaker 1: vaguely aware that they're siphening our personal info for their
Speaker 1: own game. And that reason is what convenience Okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's so much easier to accept that our cool
Speaker 1: tech comes with like a few unsightly strings attached and
Speaker 1: and just move on from there. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that makes sense. I mean, think
Speaker 1: about how hard it would be for people to disconnect
Speaker 1: from all these platforms and devices that have become a
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger part of our lives. I mean, I
Speaker 1: would think some people would probably trade any amount of
Speaker 1: privacy just to hold onto that connection. Definitely. And that
Speaker 1: same Pew report I mentioned earlier, like it basically says
Speaker 1: the same thing. They talked over experts and we're able
Speaker 1: to conclude from their responses that the desire for convenience
Speaker 1: trump's concerns about safety in most people's minds. And and
Speaker 1: here's a quote from Lee Rainey, the co author and
Speaker 1: director of pew's Internet Technology and Science Research Center, The
Speaker 1: IoT will bring advantages that are useful, that people's desire
Speaker 1: for convenience will usually prevail over their concerns about risk,
Speaker 1: and these factors will make it difficult, if not impossible,
Speaker 1: for people to opt out of a highly connected life. Wow, alright, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know the Internet of Things is supposed
Speaker 1: to be this hopeful concept and it points to this,
Speaker 1: I know, this more conclusive or connected society. But that's
Speaker 1: a lot to think about it. It's it's pretty crazy,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to go too far down a
Speaker 1: paranoia path, because I do have to say that that.
Speaker 1: On a funnier note, just looking around it was great
Speaker 1: stumbling into some of these ridiculous attempts to cash in
Speaker 1: on this growing IoT market, and I jotted down a
Speaker 1: few of these, so I kind of want to take
Speaker 1: a few minutes to share some of the more absurd
Speaker 1: examples of these so called smart devices. What do you
Speaker 1: say we do? Yeah? I love that idea, so I'm
Speaker 1: gonna sorry. A funny one I found is called the
Speaker 1: roll Scout, but you can go ahead and think of
Speaker 1: it as the Internet of toilet paper. We needed an
Speaker 1: Internet of toilet Basically, it's a toilet paper holder that
Speaker 1: informs you via text, email or app notification when the
Speaker 1: role is empty, and each holder costs about sixty I know,
Speaker 1: but you know. According to the creators, roll Scout is
Speaker 1: quote especially useful for small businesses such as cafes and
Speaker 1: restaurants that have public restrooms and are focused on providing
Speaker 1: the best customer experience possible. I have to admit I
Speaker 1: was going to say that was one of the dumbest
Speaker 1: things I'd heard of, but actually, for a restaurant or
Speaker 1: a hotel or something like that. I kind of get it.
Speaker 1: I also kind of want to buy one of these
Speaker 1: just because it's so stupid, But sixty bucks, I think
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to pass on that. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: here's one of a similar vein of things that we
Speaker 1: put into this much easier to just check yourself category.
Speaker 1: And it's it's a product from Thermos and it's called
Speaker 1: the Connected Hydration Bottle and it it basically keeps track
Speaker 1: of how much water you drink and sends your current
Speaker 1: tally to either your fitbit app or your thermoss own
Speaker 1: water tracking app. And it costs seven thousand dollars. Actually
Speaker 1: didn't see how much it costs, but it just still
Speaker 1: seemed unnecessary. So I found one called the Eggminder, and
Speaker 1: it's a trade that fits inside your refrigerator and keeps
Speaker 1: track with the quantity and freshness of up to fourteen
Speaker 1: and your favorite eggs. I don't try putting a fifteenth
Speaker 1: in there. So this is it's kind of like the
Speaker 1: Internet of egg trays. What is it monitoring? Is it
Speaker 1: monitoring like for cracks and their shells or something like
Speaker 1: that or what? No, in fact, on structural integrity is
Speaker 1: a little out of their scope, but it will send
Speaker 1: a wireless signal to your phone to keep your breast.
Speaker 1: An important develop have beens going on in your egg trays,
Speaker 1: so things like how many eggs it currently contains and
Speaker 1: whether any of them are at risk of spoiling. This
Speaker 1: seems riveting. I mean, I know, we cover a lot
Speaker 1: of topics on here that seems sort of silly at
Speaker 1: first glance, and then then they kind of make more
Speaker 1: sense once you look into them a bit more. And
Speaker 1: I have to admit the toilet paper thing was that
Speaker 1: for me. But I don't know. I'm going to go
Speaker 1: out on a limb here and say the egg minder
Speaker 1: is not one of those things. Yeah, it's probably the
Speaker 1: safe bad, but you know, the worthiness of other IoT
Speaker 1: products and even data tracking as a whole is still
Speaker 1: something that's up for debate, and chances are we'll be
Speaker 1: hearing a lot more about both their time saving advantages
Speaker 1: and and their privacy infringing drawbacks in the years ahead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's this. There's this quote from a writer and sociology
Speaker 1: professor named Neil Gross, and it kind of seems fitting
Speaker 1: for this discussion. I jotted it down here and it goes.
Speaker 1: It goes like this. It says, um, in the next century,
Speaker 1: planet Earth will done on electronic skin. It will use
Speaker 1: the Internet as a scaffold to support and transmit its sensations.
Speaker 1: This is already being stitched together. It consists of millions
Speaker 1: of embedded electronic measuring devices, thermostats, pressure gauges, pollution detectors, cameras, microphones,
Speaker 1: glucose sensors e k g s, electro and cephalographs. These
Speaker 1: will probe and monitor cities and endangered species, the atmosphere,
Speaker 1: our ships, highways and fleets of trucks, our conversations, our bodies,
Speaker 1: even our dreams. Wow. So that that's definitely like smart
Speaker 1: and poetic way to think about the future. But um,
Speaker 1: you know what else is smart and poetic? The part
Speaker 1: time genius fact off. That's right, let's do I can
Speaker 1: kick us off here, all right. Here's something to add
Speaker 1: to the already immense list of creepy things Facebook knows
Speaker 1: about you. And that's whether or not your relationship will last.
Speaker 1: In a two thousand fourteen study of Facebook data, scientists
Speaker 1: concluded that, based on activities and status updates, the company
Speaker 1: can make scarily accurate predictions about whether a couple will
Speaker 1: sink or swim. According to his research, being Facebook official
Speaker 1: really helps your chances. I wanted to congratulate you and
Speaker 1: Lizzie being Facebook official, but about half of all Facebook
Speaker 1: relationships that has survived three months are likely to survive
Speaker 1: four years or longer. Well, speaking of gigantic companies that
Speaker 1: know way too much information about us, do you know
Speaker 1: that target can tell if the female customer is pregnant
Speaker 1: occasionally even before she knows herself that. I know. So.
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand two of the statistician named Andrew
Speaker 1: Pole was hired to help the chain develop a pregnancy
Speaker 1: prediction model to better advertised as soon to be mothers.
Speaker 1: And as soon as the model was implemented, Targets Mom
Speaker 1: and Baby sales have They've skyrocketed, and they've helped to
Speaker 1: grow Targets revenue by thirteen billion dollars in the same period. God,
Speaker 1: that's crazy. All right, Well, how about I Know Where
Speaker 1: Your Cat Lives dot com a site that helps make
Speaker 1: the Internet a little more transparent. So using invisible geographic
Speaker 1: location data embedded in the cat photos we upload to
Speaker 1: social media or other people do I've never uploaded the
Speaker 1: cat photos social media. The site presents a sampling of
Speaker 1: over one million public pictures of cats align with their
Speaker 1: real locations on a world map. That sounds terrifying tonight. So,
Speaker 1: we we've been talking so much about what the Internet
Speaker 1: knows about us that I thought it'd be smart to
Speaker 1: turn the tables and mentioned a few cool things we
Speaker 1: know about the Internet. Yeah. So, so, for for starters,
Speaker 1: all the moving information contained on the Internet weighs about
Speaker 1: as much as a single strawberry. That's a going to
Speaker 1: a physicist named Russell Sites who determined that the billions
Speaker 1: of data and motion, like all those moving electrons on
Speaker 1: the Internet, they only add up to roughly fifty grams
Speaker 1: or two ounces. And and as for the Internet's data
Speaker 1: at rest, the five million terrobytes or so of static
Speaker 1: information and storage like that adds up to even less
Speaker 1: mass than a grain of sand. Wow. That is incredible,
Speaker 1: all right. Well, for for anyone who wants an eerie
Speaker 1: illustration of web tracking at work, check out the experimental
Speaker 1: website known as click The Once they are a stream
Speaker 1: of detailed information, will call out all the info your
Speaker 1: browser is leaking online, everything from the number of core
Speaker 1: processors in your computer to where your cursor is currently
Speaker 1: hovering on the page. If you want to try it
Speaker 1: out for yourself, go to click click click dot click.
Speaker 1: Pretty easy to remember. So here's another dirt we've got
Speaker 1: on the Internet. Fact, according to an article and news scientists,
Speaker 1: some researchers now estimate it takes us stunning a hundred
Speaker 1: fifty two billion kill a lott hours per year simply
Speaker 1: to power the data centers that allow the Internet to function.
Speaker 1: So if you were to add that power to the
Speaker 1: energy used by all the computers and other devices linked
Speaker 1: to the Net, the total would account for as much
Speaker 1: as two percent of all the CEO two emissions caused
Speaker 1: by humans. And just to give that a little perspective,
Speaker 1: that two percent will put the Internet on the same
Speaker 1: level as the entire aviation industry. That's a lot, Okay,
Speaker 1: Well that I do have to say that large carbon
Speaker 1: footprint is definitely something we can use to incriminate the
Speaker 1: Internet should it ever come to this. We'll see if
Speaker 1: that happens. But but on that basis alone, I think
Speaker 1: you get to take home today's title and that's it
Speaker 1: for today's show, But be sure to hop on over
Speaker 1: to stuff they don't want you to know to check
Speaker 1: out their episode on how people are attempting to remove
Speaker 1: their identity from the Internet. Thanks again to Noel, Ben
Speaker 1: and Matt for joining us, and thanks so much to
Speaker 1: all of you for listening. Everybody, Thanks again for listening.
Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works
Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do
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