1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,080
Speaker 1: I guess what will what's that man? Go? So? I

2
00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: know Portlandia has kind of mocked Portland and the stereotypes mercilessly,

3
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,160
Speaker 1: But can I just tell you about one thing that

4
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,280
Speaker 1: made me fall in love with the city? Yeah, of course,

5
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,639
Speaker 1: what's that? So the first time I was visiting, we

6
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: were staying at a friend's place in the city and

7
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,599
Speaker 1: we decided to go downtown and Lizzie is big on

8
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,080
Speaker 1: public transportation, so she made me take the bus. It

9
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 1: was the super rainy day and gray, but we got

10
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: on and we had this really long bus ride, so

11
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: we watched a lot of people get on and off

12
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: and here's what's amazing to me. Every single person who

13
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 1: got on the bus thanked the bus driver as they

14
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: got off. It like it was really amazing and so civil.

15
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 1: And that day was so gray and everyone could have

16
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 1: been miserable, but the fact that everyone, like this whole

17
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,879
Speaker 1: group of people, one by one were each telling the

18
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,440
Speaker 1: bus driver thank you for doing his job, I don't know,

19
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 1: it just made me so happy, and it made me

20
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: want to thank the bus driver too. But it also

21
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,920
Speaker 1: made me wonder, like, why isn't every other place in

22
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 1: the US like this? Why isn't this just the expected

23
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: behavior across the US? And of course, as you and

24
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: I both know, as full as the world is of

25
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,080
Speaker 1: good people were also played with horrible internet commenters and

26
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 1: surly reality show judges and politicians who are anything but decent,

27
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: and it makes you wonder is the world getting ruder?

28
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 1: Do scientists really believe that rudeness spreads like an affection?

29
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 1: And what can we do to change this tide? And

30
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about today. Let's dive in a

31
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,320
Speaker 1: their podcast. Listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will

32
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 1: Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend

33
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: Mangues Ticketer and sitting on the soundproof booth sporting his

34
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: what's it say? I'm Bart Simpson. Who the heck are you? T? Shirt?

35
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,480
Speaker 1: That's our pal and producer Ristin McNeil. That is one

36
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,520
Speaker 1: rude T shirt. You know, when when the Simpsons first

37
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 1: came out on the air and that shirt came out

38
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,400
Speaker 1: in fifth grade, kids in my school either had to

39
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,040
Speaker 1: turn their shirts around or put duct tape over the

40
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,919
Speaker 1: word heck and uh, and then the shirts got banned. Yeah,

41
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: I remember parents thinking like these kids today and shaking

42
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,239
Speaker 1: their heads but you know, actually that's always been the case.

43
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: Kids have always been rude, and parents have always complained

44
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 1: about it. And in fact, we have the perfect person

45
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 1: to chat with about that and all things rude, the

46
00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 1: author of a new book. F you very much understanding

47
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,080
Speaker 1: the culture of rudeness and what we can do about it,

48
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,639
Speaker 1: Danny Wallace. Welcome to Part Time Genius. Thank you very much,

49
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 1: pleased to be here. So, Danny, one of the most

50
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,359
Speaker 1: amazing things to me about the book, and it is truly,

51
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: truly wonderful. I'm just amazed that it was inspired by

52
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 1: a hot dog. Would you mind telling us a little

53
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 1: bit about that story? Of course? Um, yes, it was.

54
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 1: It was inspired by by hot dog. I like hot dogs.

55
00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: There's no crime in that, um, and there was. There

56
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:03,960
Speaker 1: was one day where I really fancied the hot dog

57
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: and my son I wanted a hot dog as well,

58
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 1: and we found a place that sold hot dogs advertised,

59
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, the hot dogs that it was selling. So

60
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,240
Speaker 1: so really this should have been very, very easy, and

61
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 1: this is as long as the story should ever have been.

62
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: But I went inside to get the hot dog. Again,

63
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 1: I've done it before. I know what I'm doing. Um,

64
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: I go in and I asked for the hot dog.

65
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: But I don't know if you've ever walked in, it's

66
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 1: too I don't know, well anywhere really where it just

67
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,720
Speaker 1: feels like the person behind the counter has already taken

68
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 1: in against you somehow. And that's really how it felt.

69
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 1: There was something in the air, some sort of vibe.

70
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: And she made me pay up front, which I thought

71
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 1: was unusual. But you know, it wasn't just like a

72
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 1: fast food thing. It was a proper kind of little

73
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 1: diner style restaurant down by the seaside Um. But you know,

74
00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 1: I did everything that was required of me, and then

75
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: I was standing waiting for it, and she made us

76
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 1: kind of stand outside and kind of fifteen minutes passed,

77
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 1: and that seemed like the right amount of time to

78
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 1: pass for what should be a very quick meal to

79
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 1: make for me to go in and ask where it was.

80
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: She kept going, you don't understand how it works, and

81
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 1: I kept going, well, I do understand how it works.

82
00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 1: You know, I had a hot dog, and you give

83
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 1: me the hot dog, and she keeps she keeps going,

84
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 1: they're cooked to order. And I was like, well, I

85
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,480
Speaker 1: ordered one and you haven't cooked it. You know, I've

86
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,920
Speaker 1: been to restaurants before that, that's how every restaurant works.

87
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 1: And at one point she ended up saying something very insulting,

88
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,400
Speaker 1: or at least it sounded insulting. She she said, you're

89
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440
Speaker 1: probably the sort of people who'd que up for forty

90
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 1: minutes for fish and chips. Wow, I I still don't

91
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 1: they don't know what that means. It sounds mean though

92
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 1: it struck to the very core of me um and

93
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 1: maybe question who I would I use for forty minutes

94
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,480
Speaker 1: efficient chips? I don't know. I don't know where I

95
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: am anymore. The reason I realized that I was kind

96
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,360
Speaker 1: of going a bit mad with this and I was

97
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 1: obsessing over it because for a couple of days, like

98
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,920
Speaker 1: when someone's been truly rude to you and they've broken

99
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 1: those rules, it's very confusing. You end up quite bewildered.

100
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 1: It's why people can't often come up with something witty

101
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,479
Speaker 1: to say in the moment. And because they disrespected you

102
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,240
Speaker 1: or made you feel kind of publicly disrespected, you are

103
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 1: trying to claw back some of that respect somehow, And

104
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,160
Speaker 1: so it kept going over and over in my head.

105
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,240
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll be driving around and they'll be

106
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: like a lull in the conversation between me and my

107
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 1: wife and me and my son, and then out of nowhere,

108
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,239
Speaker 1: I would just immediately go that woman was unbelievable, and

109
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: just start talking about her again. And the next night

110
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 1: I drove past the dinner and it was completely dark

111
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: and it was empty, and I found myself, as a

112
00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,920
Speaker 1: grown man, flipping off a diner and with no one

113
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 1: in it. There was nothing to be gained by doing it,

114
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,800
Speaker 1: apart from my own sort of sanity. And that's when

115
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,839
Speaker 1: I realized, you know, these these rude things that happened

116
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 1: to us, they they send us temporarily insane, I think,

117
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,400
Speaker 1: and I wanted to find out why I And I

118
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: think one of the amazing things about it is that

119
00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 1: you actually write that rudeness is airborne and the passes

120
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,400
Speaker 1: from person to person like a yarn. And I'd love

121
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,720
Speaker 1: to hear you talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, well,

122
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,200
Speaker 1: science has shown that that really rudeness does spread. It

123
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,920
Speaker 1: is kind of contagious, and it kind of spreads throughout

124
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,919
Speaker 1: an office or a school or a workplace or wherever

125
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: um in much the same way as the common cold.

126
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 1: So those people who were sitting there, shiny eyed gleeful

127
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 1: watching you know, an altercation between a hot dog less

128
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 1: man and the keeper of the hot dogs when they

129
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,359
Speaker 1: saw people being rude to each other without realizing it.

130
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: They will now sort of be infected. It will be

131
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,600
Speaker 1: much easier for them to be rude later on in

132
00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: their day. And when someone's been directly rude to you,

133
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,920
Speaker 1: and again those unwritten rules kind of have been broken. Um.

134
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,920
Speaker 1: If they've been rude to you, you're going to feel

135
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 1: much worse in yourself. It can affect um how you

136
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,880
Speaker 1: were acts after work. You won't be able to switch

137
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,560
Speaker 1: off in quite the same way you might be snapp

138
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 1: here with your partner. Your downtime won't be as as

139
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,880
Speaker 1: downtimey as as you'd like it. Your rest period won't

140
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 1: be as RESTful as you'd like it. If you snap

141
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 1: at your partner down now being infected, and they'll then

142
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 1: take that rudeness elsewhere. Um. But anyone who even just

143
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: witnesses the rudeness will become primed for more rudeness. So,

144
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,320
Speaker 1: for example, if you've seen someone you know in the

145
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: line for coffee this morning, be rude to the barista

146
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: even though it had nothing to do with you. Later

147
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: on in the day because you've experienced that moment and

148
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 1: it may have dredged up some kind of memories of

149
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: rudeness for you and feelings of being slightly on edge.

150
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 1: You're much more likely to now see rudeness where none

151
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 1: was intended. So you might get an email which is

152
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 1: perfectly neutral in tone, and yet you will be more

153
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 1: likely to read sarcasm into it or maybe passive aggression. Um,

154
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,280
Speaker 1: And that person is completely oblivious. They just they put

155
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: a smiley there just to be nice. But you're like,

156
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: what does this smiley really me? So it kind of

157
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 1: puts us all on edge even just seeing it. So

158
00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,240
Speaker 1: I was recently on a train and I paid extra

159
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: to be on a quiet car, and this person came

160
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,360
Speaker 1: in with their cell phone and just chatted the whole time.

161
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,320
Speaker 1: And I just could not ignore the person, and uh,

162
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 1: personally because they were bragging about themselves continuously, but also

163
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 1: just because I couldn't avoid listening in. And you actually

164
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 1: have a section about half of ARDSCA. Can you talk

165
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: a little bit about cell phones and why they're so annoying? Yeah,

166
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: of course, Well, on one level, when we got onto

167
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 1: a train and we're in public space, UM, certainly I understand. Uh,

168
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 1: you know my part my rules. If I got a table,

169
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to spread my stuff all over the table.

170
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 1: I understand I've got a little bit of the table.

171
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna, you know, shove my legs out right

172
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 1: in front of me, because I understand that person's got

173
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: their space. We all have these little instinctive moments of

174
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,240
Speaker 1: respect that we pay to one another so that we

175
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 1: can all, you know, get along. And and someone stands

176
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 1: up and starts chatting away loudly on their phone and

177
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 1: knows that everyone else must be able to hear it.

178
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,640
Speaker 1: They're sort of removing themselves from the group that they're saying,

179
00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: you're a group, you lock, you're all the group, but

180
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 1: I'm special. I'm having my phone call and they have

181
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: their phone call. And why it's so annoying for other

182
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 1: people If you have, you know, two old ladies sitting,

183
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, in the row behind you and they're just

184
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 1: chatting away and laughing, it's sort of fine because they're

185
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,319
Speaker 1: they're chatting and you can hear the whole conversation. It

186
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,319
Speaker 1: might be annoying, but it's not necessarily rude. Why someone

187
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,960
Speaker 1: chatting on their phone is impossible to ignore um, and

188
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: is is rude? Is because you can only hear that

189
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 1: half of the conversation that you're talking about, the half

190
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 1: a log um. And the human brain, no matter what

191
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 1: you're trying to do, it's always hungry for a story.

192
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,959
Speaker 1: It's always trying to solve, you know, problems, It is

193
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 1: trying to work stuff out. So even if you're trying

194
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,839
Speaker 1: your best to ignore this person having their chat, your

195
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 1: brain is trying to fill in the blanks. And and

196
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 1: there's also the kind of the staccato nature of a conversation.

197
00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 1: You're trying to get into your flow, your rhythm wherever

198
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,800
Speaker 1: you do. When you're driving and someone cuts you up,

199
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,560
Speaker 1: they disturb your flow. If you're on a train and

200
00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 1: you're reading a book and you have to read the

201
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: same sentence nineteen times because of the person having the chat,

202
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 1: your flow has been interrupted, and we feel that on

203
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 1: some level that is always quite a rude thing. But

204
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: the random nature of replies on a one sided conversation,

205
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 1: because you don't know how long the other guy's gonna

206
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: talk for. You know, you might do a one word answer,

207
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,120
Speaker 1: you might you might you talk for ten minutes and

208
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 1: you'll just here a man going hard the whole time.

209
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 1: So because it's completely unpredictable, it's another reason that we

210
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,600
Speaker 1: find it impossible to ignore and hugely annoying. But the

211
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,280
Speaker 1: rudeness certainly comes from removing yourself from the group and

212
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,800
Speaker 1: going no one here matters. I'm talking to Nigel. He's

213
00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: had a hair transplant. Stay right there, more with Danny

214
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:17,480
Speaker 1: Wallace right after this break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius.

215
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 1: We're talking to Danny Wallace. You know, one of the

216
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 1: most amazing stories in your book is about a politician

217
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: in Colombia who decided to fight rudeness, and to fight

218
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: rudeness with mimes of all things, and I was hoping

219
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about that. Yeah, this

220
00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 1: is a guy stumbled across named Anthonys Marcus who is

221
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 1: either the craziest politician in the world or some kind

222
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,840
Speaker 1: of genius. And I think he's some kind of genius

223
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: because he takes problems and he's sort of he comes

224
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: up with what seem on paper to be insane ideas,

225
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: insane solutions, and yet they seem to work. And this

226
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,960
Speaker 1: is a guy who had been kind of in charge,

227
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,200
Speaker 1: like the trance clothing or the director of university at

228
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,439
Speaker 1: Bogutar University UM and there was like there was kind

229
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 1: of some student unrest one day and there were hundreds

230
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: and hund of the students all shouting, and he was

231
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: on the stage and he was trying to calm them down,

232
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: and they would not be calmed him. They would not listen,

233
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 1: they would not give him the time of day, and

234
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 1: no matter what he did on that microphone, they wouldn't

235
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 1: shut up. And so he very calmly walked to the

236
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 1: front of the stage, underd his belt, turned around, pulled

237
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 1: down his trousers and showed the world his ass, at

238
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: which point every student was kind of silent and slack George.

239
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: No one knew why he was doing this. Had he

240
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 1: gone mad, you know? Was he protesting their rudeness or

241
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 1: was he being rude himself? And it was a massive scandal,

242
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: and every sort of newspaper was talking about it. Everyone

243
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: who was discussed that at his behavior, how could he

244
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,559
Speaker 1: act that way? It was so rude um And he

245
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 1: ended up having to leave his job. But because he

246
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: had done this current crazy thing, he was now in

247
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 1: the public kind of consciousness. So when he then ran

248
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 1: for there at a time when Bogutar was seen as

249
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 1: pretty much the most um chaotic, let's stay city in

250
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,200
Speaker 1: the world, and there was corruption left right and center.

251
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 1: They felt that this was a guy they could trust.

252
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 1: So he was, you know, put into power. But crucially,

253
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: because he didn't owe anyone any favors, he could get

254
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 1: rid of everyone that he felt was potentially corrupt and

255
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: instead bring in a bunch of his friends, all of

256
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 1: whom had crazy ideas like him. And they looked at

257
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 1: the city and they saw what was going on, and

258
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: they saw that people were driving in considerately, They were

259
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,680
Speaker 1: mounting the sidewalks, they were jaywalking left right and center,

260
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 1: they were being incredibly loud when when they shouldn't have been,

261
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, um, And he just thought, right, what do

262
00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,680
Speaker 1: we do here? And just as you say, he did

263
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: something a bit crazy, which was that he got rid

264
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 1: of the vast majority of the notoriously corrupt traffic police

265
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 1: and he replaced them with minds, so actual minds. So

266
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,720
Speaker 1: people dressed in black, the traditional white gloves, their faces

267
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 1: painted white, and he just unleashed this army of minds

268
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 1: onto the streets and said, find rude behavior, find bad behavior,

269
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: and call it out. So if you were someone who

270
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 1: was saying jaywalking and there was traffic. You know, you're

271
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 1: putting people in danger, and you're doing what you shouldn't

272
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 1: be doing. You might look behind you and find five

273
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 1: or six mimes who are copying you and mocking your walk,

274
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 1: completely in front of the whole world, and it would

275
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: make you think twice about doing that again. Or if

276
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: you'd part your car somewhere where you weren't allowed to

277
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 1: park your car, you might suddenly find loads and loads

278
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 1: of minds surrounding your car, just pointing at you and

279
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 1: shaking their heads. And what it did was it made

280
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 1: people accountable for their actions, but it also showed everybody

281
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 1: else that, look, there's people on your side. So these

282
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 1: rude people they're not being because you know, we're we're

283
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 1: just letting them anymore. They're breaking the rules, and we

284
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 1: are sort of shaming them, but in a playful but

285
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: powerful way. And the public started to join in, and

286
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 1: he had more and more schemes that didn't just involve minds.

287
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 1: I mentioned people being loud. You know, there might be

288
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 1: playing there. I guess back then their boom boxes and

289
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 1: their disco music or whatever it was about. Then, you know,

290
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 1: loudly on the train, and suddenly a bunch of fellows

291
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 1: dressed up as benedictating monks would get on um, you

292
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 1: know and just put their fingers to their lips just

293
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 1: to sort of highlights you know, their their their vow

294
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 1: of silence and how you were impinging upon it. So

295
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: there's all these kind of It was almost like almost

296
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 1: like kind of weird hidden camera moments, except no one

297
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 1: was really filming it. It was just there to show

298
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 1: the public. Look, we understand there's a way to behave

299
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: and we're going to help you, and we're gonna puncture

300
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,880
Speaker 1: the kind of the aggression underneath it that it normally

301
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 1: goes to, and and we're going to show that you've

302
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: got people on your side. And it worked to an

303
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 1: astounding degree. You know, even homicides went down, um, just

304
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 1: thanks to a series of kind of quite playful things.

305
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,400
Speaker 1: And and and crucially um people offered to pay more

306
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 1: tax just because the mayor said, listen, it would be

307
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 1: really lovely if you would offer to pay more tax.

308
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: So it just showed that people were hungry for a

309
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 1: non rude world. But it felt like that chance had

310
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 1: been lost at a time when Bogita had gone crazy

311
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: and it just took one crazy guy to turn this around.

312
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 1: That's really such an incredible story. So I do want

313
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,600
Speaker 1: to get back to a little bit of how rudeness

314
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: affects us. And I know in one part you talk

315
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 1: about how, um, rudeness can sort of curb people's creativity,

316
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 1: But I was also curious how rudeness can actually be

317
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,920
Speaker 1: dangerous in a medical context. When you talk a little

318
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 1: bit about that. Yeah, of course, UM, well, when someone

319
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: has been unnecessarily rude to you, UM, it really does

320
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 1: affect your brain. It affects the frontal lobes, which is

321
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 1: RESPONSI was responsible for kind of working memory and whatever

322
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 1: the task at hand is UM, and studies were done

323
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,200
Speaker 1: that showed that, yes, absolutely, it doesn't make people less creative.

324
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,959
Speaker 1: So people were kind of surprised by rudeness um, and

325
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,200
Speaker 1: then set simple tasks. They didn't realize that the rudeness

326
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: was kind of part of it, so it would happen

327
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: on the way into the experiment. But the people who

328
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 1: had experienced rudeness found themselves, um far less able too.

329
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,159
Speaker 1: For an example, come up with very simple anagrams or

330
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: creative uses for a brick. That was my favorite um,

331
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 1: so they just couldn't come up with as many ideas

332
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: as other people could, the people who hadn't experienced any

333
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 1: rudeness whatsoever. And it's been sort of shown time and

334
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 1: time again just how much this affects us. I mean,

335
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 1: there were studies done, I think in the seventies that

336
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,199
Speaker 1: showed that even just a loud noise changes who we

337
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,119
Speaker 1: are and how much empathy we have. So if you

338
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 1: had an old woman at the top of some stairs

339
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 1: and to her shopping bag is broken and all her

340
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 1: shopping is tumbling down the stairs and oranges and tin cans,

341
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,760
Speaker 1: but our instinct is to run to her and to

342
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 1: help her. But the science has shown that if someone nearby,

343
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 1: and this is the crazy bit, if someone nearby is

344
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,439
Speaker 1: doing some gardening and has quite a lowed lawnmower, it

345
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,360
Speaker 1: affects us in such a way that we are much

346
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 1: less likely to go and run to that woman's aid,

347
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: because part of our brain is dealing with what's going

348
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 1: on over here. So it's much the same when it

349
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 1: comes to rudeness. Part of your brain is coping with that.

350
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 1: And where it becomes very dangerous, isn't when you're like

351
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 1: a rioter who hasn't been served the hot dog. It's

352
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 1: much more when you have a position of you know,

353
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: real authority or responsibility over other people's lives. So there

354
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 1: were studies done in Tel Aviv with a bunch of surgeons,

355
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: three groups of surgeons, and one of the groups in

356
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 1: particular was told that while they were doing their simulated

357
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 1: surgery on a on a on an infant um, they

358
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 1: were going to be observed by a medical professional from America.

359
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 1: And when that medical professional came over on Skype to

360
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: say hello to them, he was just very rude. He

361
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,920
Speaker 1: was very dismissive. He said he had no real respect

362
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 1: for the medicinal community in the in Tel Aviv, and

363
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: that you know, he wishes them well. Nonetheless, and when

364
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,159
Speaker 1: they went and did their surgery um, it was shown

365
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,440
Speaker 1: afterwards by an independent group that that team, in particular,

366
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 1: those bunch of surgeons who had experienced rudeness, became less

367
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:45,119
Speaker 1: effective at the surgery they were doing. They didn't communicate well,

368
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 1: they picked up the wrong instruments. They would become fixated

369
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: on the original diagnosis, so that if something changed that

370
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: was really obvious, they would kind of ignore it because

371
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: they couldn't deal with it. At that time, they didn't

372
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 1: resacitate properly, and essentially the infant in the simulation would

373
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 1: have died had it been an actual of surgery. So

374
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: that's when you start to see that, you know, rudeness

375
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 1: which cuts to the very core of who we are

376
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: and makes us feel disrespected and confuses us and bewilders

377
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: us in those situations, and that's where big accidents can happen,

378
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,640
Speaker 1: medical errors can happen. It's been shown that truck drivers

379
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: with rude dispatchers miss more stop science. Um, so anyone,

380
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, if you have an airline pilot, you know,

381
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 1: at least when they've had a drink, you know, you

382
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: can you can sort of see their glassy eyes or

383
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: see them sway around. But there's there are no clues

384
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: when it comes to rudeness and what someone may have

385
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 1: just experienced. And and that's when when I was writing

386
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: the book, I start to realize just how dark this

387
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: can kind of get. Because we've always found rudeness to

388
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: be quite amusing and we love, you know, rude people

389
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: in sitcoms, whether it's Basil Faulty or the Supernancy or whatever,

390
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,239
Speaker 1: and we love changing stories, you know about rudeness, but

391
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: we don't really appreciate that it is genuinely a silent killer.

392
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: If if someone's been rude to a doctor in the morning,

393
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 1: it can affect the next five patients. So suddenly you

394
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,479
Speaker 1: start to see how it can affect all of us.

395
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: And when you've got the world's rudist man in the

396
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 1: in the world's most powerful position, um, then you start

397
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 1: to have problems. Yeah, it's a well, those are all

398
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: scary situations. Though I don't think you should minimize the

399
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: hot dog thing. I still can't get over that you

400
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 1: didn't get a hot dog for an hour in a minute,

401
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 1: but it will stay with you for quite some time.

402
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 1: Grategy of that day. You know. There there is a

403
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: great story in the beginning of the book about someone

404
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: who joins ISIS and is put off by the rudeness

405
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: of that movement. And now, obviously ISIS isn't something that

406
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: we laugh about, but but honestly, that story was so funny.

407
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 1: Can can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely,

408
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: This was This was a fellow who who decided to

409
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: flee Britain Omar's saying, and he left his job as

410
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 1: a I think he was a security Gardener's supermarket, and

411
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 1: he fled for the for the deserts where he could

412
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: train with with Isis and and really I put the

413
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: story in to show that, you know, we all have

414
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: different standards, were all quite different people, um, and yet

415
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: there are some things that unite almost everyone. Because he

416
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: had gone he'd fled to the desert in order to

417
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: essentially help bring down the very sort of tenants of

418
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,719
Speaker 1: Western civilization, um and do kind of unspeakable things and

419
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: train for atrocities. But when he got there, he just

420
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: found himself constantly annoyed because this this great brotherhood that

421
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: he'd expected of people that thought like him and wanted

422
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: to attack the West. Sometimes would just unplug his phone

423
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: and steal his phone charger for a while, which he

424
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: thought was one step too far even for Ices. Or

425
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: sometimes they'd sort of he'd take his shoes off to

426
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 1: have a prey and then he'd be like, where are

427
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: my shoes? And he'd look up and there'd be another

428
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 1: this member who just taking his shoes, and he was like,

429
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: this is this is not what I joined ices for.

430
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: You know, we've got to have standards here. And he

431
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: would make dinner for them sometimes and he'd just be like,

432
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: can you all just pipe down because all like grabbing

433
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: at the food, and he's like, we're gonna have a

434
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: system here, and he was just basically he was very

435
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: disappointed at how immature, um, and how badly brought up

436
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: a lot of terrorists seemed to be these days. Um.

437
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: And it just made me think that, you know, even

438
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: a man in this situation who has turned his back

439
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: on all sorts of Western conventions and all sorts of

440
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: standards of treating each other, even he can find himself

441
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: annoyed at the kind of the minor injustices and sort

442
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: of everyday monsters of polite society. Yeah, you gotta, you

443
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: gotta to other lines somewhere, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

444
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: I wouldn't last five minutes. And iis I'll tell you

445
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: you do talk a little bit about a rudeness vaccine

446
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: that they were testing on doctors and what exactly would

447
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: that involved. Well, it was great because this was just

448
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: like a passing comment that one of the scientists that

449
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: I've talked to said, And his name is a mere Errors,

450
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: and I think he's great. And there's a bunch of them.

451
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of these sort of like me rudeness

452
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: nerds kind of like sculpting them out in the shadows,

453
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: sort of stemp in their little feet and going why

454
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: can't everything be better? Um? And Amir entered into sort

455
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: of rudeness studies, if you like, um by thinking that

456
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: it was nonsense. He just thought, you know, rudeness doesn't

457
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: have an effect on anybody. It's just just a thing.

458
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: It's just a thing that happens in your day. And

459
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: he started to look into it, almost like just as

460
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: a bet with one of his colleagues. And he told me,

461
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: he said, every time I look into it, I find

462
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: something else, and what I usually find is shocking. Um.

463
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 1: And we were talking about the doctor's thing and the

464
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: idea that you know, like I say, someone being rude

465
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: to a doctor doesn't just affect you know, the next

466
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: person the doctor sees, but five people, um, you know,

467
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: in in a in a in a road can be affected,

468
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: according to the studies, by a moment of rudeness. And

469
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: I said to him, you know, it's a silent killer.

470
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: It's a sort of you know, we we we need

471
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: to be taking this a bit more seriously. Uh. And

472
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: and he just sort of threw it away, this this

473
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: idea that he said, you know, we're sort of working

474
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: in a vaccine, and I was like, what were you

475
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: talking about? A vaccine? And it's kind of a video

476
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: game that doctors can play at the very start of

477
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: their day before anyone has even thought about being rude

478
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: to them. So it's almost like an inoculation and they

479
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: play this game and they're still working on it. But however,

480
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: it works and whatever it does helps to sort of

481
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: free up those frontal lobes that often, like I say,

482
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: get bogged down in the rudeness of things. So I

483
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: suppose it just protects them, and whatever mental exercises it

484
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: puts these doctors through just how them too, I suppose

485
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: take a breath or perhaps take a step back from

486
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: the situation. Um. So I can't wait to find out

487
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: more about it. That they're going to be starting more studies.

488
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: But it does show that a rudeness is being taken

489
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: seriously and be steps are being made to to help

490
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: us all deal with it. Um. Because you know when

491
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: every time you get in a car, you know you're

492
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: a dangerous a situation escalating. Well, we've got several more

493
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: questions for you, Danny, but we'll be right back with

494
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: Part Time Genius after the break. Welcome back to Part

495
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: Time Genius. We're talking to Danny Wallace, the author of

496
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: f you very much understanding the culture of rudeness and

497
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: what we can do about it. So I wanted to

498
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: ask you about Internet rolls because we started a blog

499
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: very early, uh at our former jobs and and it

500
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: was sort of this warm and welcoming culture of people

501
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: who read the posts and stuff, and it slowly grew

502
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: into more of an aggressive community and more people who

503
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: are more liberated to be trolley. And so our explanation

504
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: was always it really is the anonymity of this that

505
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: that people are just you know, at home behind their screens.

506
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: But you have a bit of a tweaked reason for it.

507
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: Could you explain that? Yeah, I think we've always traditionally said,

508
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the anonymity of the Internet that

509
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: is there is the problem. And certainly, um it is

510
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: quite free, UM it allows um. You know, the anonymity

511
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: in a sense is a beautiful thing because in the

512
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: early days it meant that people who, for example, UM,

513
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable coming out could could find other people like them,

514
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: but didn't feel that they were risking anything at that

515
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: at that point, and they could they could find other

516
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: people like them who were at the same point in

517
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: time and encourage to each other. And it was seen

518
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: as quite you know, it was a great thing. And

519
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: then of course the rise of the of the trolls,

520
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: it just made his immediately think, well, actually, anonymity is

521
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: a terrible thing. What studies have shown is really it's

522
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: a lack of eye contact that is the huge problem. Um.

523
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: I was talking earlier about how difficult it is to have,

524
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, the looking glass held up to you if

525
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: you're a rude person, because you you see yourself through

526
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: the eyes of others. That's why it's also very difficult

527
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: for people to be certainly as rude to each other faces,

528
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: because you're there's something called the looking glass self, which

529
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: is we are always looking into the eyes of others

530
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: for how we are coming across. Does this person like me?

531
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: Have I offended them? How am I doing? You know

532
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: in life? In their eyes? Um And a lack of

533
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: eye contact with with the internet means that people can

534
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: be free to be as rude as they want. Again,

535
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: tests were done in hyper I think in Israel, where

536
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: they had an office full of people and some of

537
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: them were made to just sit opposite the person they

538
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: had to kind of work with, and some had to

539
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: use like instant messenger or something to where to to

540
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: work together with people. And they found far and away

541
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: that the people who would be much more aggressive with

542
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: each other were the ones who simply couldn't see each other.

543
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's there is a certain freedom

544
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: in in the annymity, but I would say there's much

545
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: more freedom and in knowing that person just can't see you.

546
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: I know that you referred to a certain politician and

547
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: some celebrity judges and Basil Faulty. And why do you

548
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: think it is that we are so attracted to rudeness. Well,

549
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: I think we're at a point where rudeness, it's sort

550
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: of helping people achieve strange ambitions. Rudeness more than ever,

551
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: is everywhere, and it's getting worse, and it tumbles from

552
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: our phones. And every time we switch on the TV, um,

553
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: two people who are pretending to be journalists having a fight, um, uh,

554
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: you know about whatever has just happened on cable news,

555
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: and then they bring in another person, uh, and and

556
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: it just feels angrier and narrower and coarser, and everyone's

557
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: got to have an opinion on everything all the time,

558
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: even if they know nothing about the thing they're trying

559
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: to say, They've got the opinion on and the opinion

560
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: has to be put in in a very short and

561
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: forthright way to cut through the noise of everyone else's

562
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: opinions and must then be broadcast to everybody else because

563
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: we're all so important. Um, the people on reality TV shows,

564
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: it's just taught us that meanness should be rewarded because

565
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: they are the people who make the edit. Um, the

566
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: highest paid talent judges are always the mean ones. Um.

567
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: So everywhere we turn, we're being kind of taught that

568
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: to be rude, to be to lack empathy in a

569
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: in a sense, um, it is a good thing. You know,

570
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: Journalists find they get more clicks if if if they

571
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: if they write the horrible thing in a horrible way. Um.

572
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: So so it I sort of felt this kind of

573
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: this ground swell, and it came at a time where

574
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: you know, like Trump, for example, Um yeah, a lot

575
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: of what he ran on was this this kind of

576
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: mavericks sort of. I tell it like it is. I'm

577
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: only being honest. I'm just saying what everyone else is

578
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: thinking and and those are all things that came from

579
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: reality TV as well. You know, all these people are going,

580
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: I just tell it like it is. I'm a truth teller.

581
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's refreshing. You can't argue with it. And really,

582
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: when these people say they're being honest, they're not being

583
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: honest at all. They're just putting forward an opinion but

584
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: saying it's just honest. It's like, let's get out clause,

585
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: because we're suddenly not allowed to argue with you if

586
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: you're being honest, and in fact, we've got to all

587
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: stand around and applaud you for being so brave as

588
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: to be honest. And so, for whatever reason, reality TV

589
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: online personas the rise of powerful rude people. Um, we're

590
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: kind of being taught again and again that rudeness works

591
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: and politeness is weak. I think that's the thing now

592
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: thinking about it, I think that's what I'm getting at,

593
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: is that we see manners as weakness, and we see

594
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: empathy as weakness, and we see rudeness of strength. Well, actually,

595
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: along those lines, you talk about the possibility of empathy

596
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: training in schools and how it could help teenagers at

597
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: that stage in their lives. I mean what would that

598
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: look like. Do you think, well, yeah, it's a strange one.

599
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, part of me kind of books

600
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: at phrases like that kind of empathy training because it

601
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: just sounds so wishy washy and sort of a bit nonsensical.

602
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: It's like, how can you train for empathy? Um? And

603
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: yet people have sort of shown in in in in

604
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: studies that it sort of can be taught and it

605
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: can be exercised like a muscle, you know, it can

606
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: be grown in people. And I suppose it's just highlighting

607
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: um you know here basically it boils down to this

608
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: rudeness is just kind of ignoring how another person feels

609
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: and just doing what you feel no matter who gets hurt.

610
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: And politeness tends to be a system. I've sort of

611
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: shared empathy, you know, I think etiquette is so outdated,

612
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: but politeness is really the main thing. And that just means,

613
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: you know, you're slightly happier when someone says please you,

614
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: You feel seen when someone says thank you. If you

615
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: hold a door open just for a couple of secments

616
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: for someone who's you know, struggling with some bags, you

617
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: both feel better for it. Um And and these are

618
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: things that we learn instinctively and we have used for

619
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: millennia and it's a system that works. Um. And you know,

620
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: I think that that turning our back on that empathy

621
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: is is a bad thing. I'm not sure I would,

622
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, I we would need empathy raining in schools.

623
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: But but for the kids. But perhaps, um, I don't know.

624
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps just highlighting how people are seen through the

625
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: eyes of others as a good thing, which essentially is

626
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: what the guy in Columbia was doing. You know, he

627
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: was holding a looking glass up to those people like

628
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: almost sort of you know it sort of isn't the

629
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: looking glass of mime, isn't it? Because the mind was

630
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: mimicking them and showing them what they were doing, So

631
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: it was kind of a mobile mirror. And when you

632
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: see your own actions through the eyes of others and

633
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: how you're coming across, that's when you tend to change

634
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: your behavior. But it's such a strange but but an

635
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: interesting idea. And honestly, even the idea that a mime

636
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: or god forbid, multiple mimes might show up if I

637
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: do something rude, would probably influence my behavior anyway. Yeah, well,

638
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: we all know what we're getting. You for your birthday. Well, Danny,

639
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: this has been a ton of fun, not u it all.

640
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm so happy about how polite we've all been to

641
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: one another today. You've you've been, You've been absolutely wonderfully.

642
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: Should be very proud. Thank you very much, and I

643
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: hope all of our listeners will check out the book.

644
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: It's f you very much understanding the culture of rudeness

645
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: and what we can do about it. But Danny, thanks

646
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: so much for being on the program. Thanks thanks again

647
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of how

648
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: stuff works and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people

649
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: who do the important things we couldn't even begin to understand.

650
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the

651
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: theme song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry

652
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: Rowland does the exact producer thing. Gave Louesier is our

653
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: lead researcher, with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson,

654
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: Nolan Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets

655
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: the show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you

656
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if

657
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: you really really like what you've heard. Maybe you could

658
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: leave a good review for us. Did we? Did we

659
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: forget Jason? Jason who