1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: How do their families cope with that? How did they 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: somehow survive? How did they work through that trauma? The grief. 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: It's one thing to lose a relative to an illness 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: or sickness. It's another to lose a relative to one 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: of the biggest crimes frees in the nation's history at 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: the time. 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold Where 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: Wicked Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: behind the stories. Most of us know the story of 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: serial killer John Wayne Gacy. I frankly don't want to 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: know more about Gaysey, but I do want to hear 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: about his victims. So I had a great discussion with 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: author David Nelson, who focuses on the boys who were 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: Gaycy's victims in his book Boys Enter the House, the 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: victims of John Wayne Gacy, and the lives they left behind. 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the obligatory summary of John Wayne Gacy 27 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: for the very few people who have not become aware 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: of what happened with this story, the number of victims 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: he had in the time period, and the location. Just 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: give us sort of the short speel and then we 31 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: can jump into who these boys were. 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: So John Wayne Gacy was a business man living in 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: the suburbs of the Chicago area and a place called 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: Norwood Park, which is an unincorporated area of Cook County. 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: It's very close to the Airport O'Hare, so that's where 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: most of the action takes place. In terms of the murders. 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy was a precinct captain for the Democratic Party. 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: He was a businessman who owned his own company called PDM, 39 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: which stands for Painting, Decorating and Maintenance. He did all 40 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: sorts of jobs all over the Midwest, locally here in 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: the Chicago area, but also Michigan, Pennsylvania. He did a 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,839 Speaker 2: job in Albion, Michigan, which is where I went to college, Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, 43 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: all over the place. He was a gregarious individual. He 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: loved to socialize. He loved to host parties, themed parties 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: at his little bungalow in Morewood Park. He was also 46 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: most famously a clown. He liked to dress as a clown. 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: I think everybody has that image of him standing outside 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: of his house dressed as in that awful outfit with 49 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: the real jagged makeup. He performed mostly for birthday parties 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: and actually at children's hospitals as well, which as a 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: real dark kind of flavor to him as a person. 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 2: But this was really his way of being social, putting 53 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: on a different mask that was in himself, and continuing 54 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: to entertain people during all this time. During his life, 55 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: he was, of course concealing a secret. He claimed he 56 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: was bisexual. But he was picking up young men anywhere 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: from the age of fourteen to twenty two twenty three 58 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: and bringing them to his home for either a sexual 59 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: encounter or a drug deal, or to potentially work for 60 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: him at his company. He employed a lot of young 61 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: teenage boys at these construction sites. A lot of them 62 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: lived with him at times, worked out of his house 63 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: where his office was as well. Over the course of 64 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: theineteen seventies, From nineteen seventy two to nineteen seventy eight, 65 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: he killed thirty three boys officially, though I suspect that 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: number is about thirty four to three five ish in 67 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: that range. 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 3: Why do you suspect that? 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: Well, First of all, there is his initial confession, which 70 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: I know people are not as willing to trust the 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: serial killer at his word, but during that confession, I 72 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: do think he was quite truthful. I think there's sort 73 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: of a Catholic kind of confessional thing going on there. 74 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: At the end, he's finally unburdening himself with this huge 75 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: secret that he's been carrying all these years. But also 76 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: a lot of those facts are verified by what was 77 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: found at the house, what was found in the crawl 78 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: space where he buried the boys, and also what investigators 79 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: uncovered as well. He does claim that he dumped several 80 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: boys into the river. Once the crawl space was two full, 81 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: he started throwing these boys off a bridge into the 82 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: Displains river. Four bodies, I should say, were found, but 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: he claimed he threw a fifth that might have fallen 84 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: onto a barge and been carried off. I think there 85 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: was probably a fifth body there. There's recordings of him 86 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: talking to his lawyers in nineteen seventy nine after he's 87 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: been caught, and he talks about leaving a young man's 88 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: body out in the woods during the winter, and this boy, 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: he was sort of very specific about him. He had 90 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: a military background, and so I think to give that anecdote, 91 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: I take that at its word. I think there was 92 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: probably another body that was dumped in the woods. There 93 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: was some discussion from some of the law enforcement at 94 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: the time about finding this body, but they never conclusively 95 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: linked it. I can't officially link it myself, obviously, but 96 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: I do think there was probably a thirty fifth body 97 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: that was left in the woods at some point. 98 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Well, who should we start with, because there are an 99 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: awful lot of victims. Whose family did you approach first? 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: Frank Land again or dale Land again as he was known. 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: His family came first in the form of his sister, 102 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: Denise Land Again. She and I had a call at 103 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: the start of this research, which is what it was 104 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: to start with, and she had been waiting so long 105 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: to talk about her brother, and she hadn't had a 106 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: chance to talk about it back then, and he was 107 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: not as represented in the articles and the stories that followed. 108 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: He wasn't, you know, when they made a movie, he 109 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: wasn't featured in it. His story wasn't told. She had 110 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: been waiting for a moment to finally tell this story, 111 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: and she told me everything she told me about, not 112 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: just what he had gone through and how they went 113 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: through his murder, but she told me about the abuse 114 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: at the hands of her father, how he sort of 115 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: ruled their home and really made it a difficult place 116 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: to live, not just for her and her sisters, but 117 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: for Dale himself. It was not a happy home. And 118 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: I remember ending that interview and feeling like what am 119 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: I getting into a little bit, but also realizing and 120 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: feeling a little bit reinvigorated and like, this is what 121 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 2: I should be doing, This is the I should be telling. 122 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 2: So from then on out, Denise and I became good friends. 123 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: I know they say you should probably, you know, remain 124 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: neutral as you're reporting. It's hard to remain neutral in 125 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: a story like this, when there's so much grief, so 126 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: much fallout from this case. You want the best for 127 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: the individuals that you're making friends with and interviewing, and 128 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: when they have something outside of this murder happened in 129 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: their lives, you feel bad for them. You want them 130 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: to be happy, and so it's hard not to empathize 131 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: with them and become close to them. So that was 132 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: the first family I really began this journey with, and 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: Dale was almost the gatekeeper to the rest of the 134 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: story in some ways. 135 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Dale and how eventually his life 136 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: intersected with that of John Wayne Gacy. From Denise's point 137 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: of view, what did she say? How did this whole 138 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: thing start? 139 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: Everything was moving along with the family up until the 140 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 2: divorce between Denise and Dale's parents, and the family broke 141 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: up and basically kind of became involved in their own lives. 142 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: And the kids at that point were a little bit older, 143 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: so they were a little bit more self sufficient. But Uptown, 144 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: being the area that it was, was very free, very open. 145 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: It was the nineteen seventies, so this kind of danger 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: that Gacy posed was not at the forefront of everyone's mind. 147 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: Hanging out on the streets with your friends, running off, 148 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: going on in adventures, that was kind of the norm, 149 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: especially in this area of Uptown, and so Denise and 150 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: Dale lived on the streets for quite a bit of time. 151 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: They came home to their mother's home or their father's 152 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: home here and there when they needed to, but Denise 153 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: kind of remembers more of them both being on the street. 154 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: And Denise did lose contact with her brother here and there, 155 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: and so a lot of those those holes in his 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: life were filled in by some additional friends that I 157 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: met along the way as well, and kind of offered 158 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: some insight about what Dale was up to. Dale had 159 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: a ring of jobs that didn't go very well. He 160 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: worked at a long John silvers for a while, he 161 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: worked at a movie theater. One other book records that 162 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: he worked at a hotel briefly. He was sort of 163 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: a little bit wayward. He did not attend high school. 164 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: There is a little bit of a record of him 165 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: at Sennhai listed in the back of the index, but 166 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: there's no accompanying photograph or anything like that. From then 167 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: on out, his time within Chicago Public schools is basically 168 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: at an end. So he does have frequent run ins 169 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 2: with the law. There's stories of him dealing drugs. There's 170 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: also stories of him working as a male hustler, which 171 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: for a young man in the nineteen seventies on the 172 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: North Side, that was probably something you did to make 173 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: money to get food. You started hustling, you started to 174 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: meet with hustlers down at Clark n Diversity in the 175 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: Newtown neighborhood, which is what it was called at the time. 176 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: So that's probably what led him to run into John 177 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy, that connection, but also his need for a job. 178 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 2: One of his friends did recall Dale talking about talking 179 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 2: to a businessman or a contractor that was offering him 180 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: a job, and so that was almost certainly John Wayne Gacy, 181 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: because not long after that Dale disappeared and Dale's body 182 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: was one of the four discovered in the Displains River. 183 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: And do we know where in the line Dale was 184 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: one of the beginning I'm assuming or was it one 185 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: of the end? 186 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: Dale was actually at the end? He was. He disappeared 187 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: right before Thanksgiving nineteen seventy eight. His body was found 188 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: before the Geysey case broke, so for a few weeks 189 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: he was just a random homicide victim. He hadn't even 190 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: been found in Cook County or in Chicago. He was 191 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: found way out in a marina just outside of a 192 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: marina floating in the Displains River. An investigation ensues, his 193 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: body is examined, but no one makes the link later 194 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: until Gacy actually confesses to his murder and he's linked 195 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: through also a bond slip which is found in John 196 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy's home. The day or two before he disappeared, 197 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: Dale got into a physical altercation with his girlfriend at 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: the time he was arrested, and then he was released 199 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: a day or two after that, So that bond slip 200 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: was actually found in Gaycy's home which linked him to 201 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: this series of crimes. So at that point then police 202 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: realized that there are bodies beyond what's inside this crawl space. 203 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: There are bodies potentially in the rivers as well. 204 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: So Denise and Dale come from an abusive household from 205 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: the father. I can't imagine what Denise and her mother 206 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: must have felt, but what is the father's reaction. I'm 207 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: curious about the murder of his son, especially as all 208 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: of the details start to spill out about this man 209 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: and how many people he killed and who he was 210 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: targeting vulnerable people. 211 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: So we don't know a whole lot about how Francisco Senior, 212 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: who was from originally from the Philippines. How he really 213 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: reacted to this, Obviously, it was a shock. Francisco Senior 214 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: was the last to see Dale alive that we know of. 215 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: He was the last reported, and so he testified to 216 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: that effect. Having to go before the jury, having to 217 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: sit in the courtroom with John Wayne Gacy, I'm sure 218 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: was a huge burden for him. But by that time, 219 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: Denise really didn't want to have a whole lot to 220 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: do with her father and continued not to have a 221 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: lot to do with him from then on out. Knowing 222 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: that her father was abusive, sexually abusive towards her and 223 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: her sisters when they were children, she did her best 224 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: to keep her own children away from her father. And 225 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: there's a time where she also lost her husband, who 226 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 2: was probably her ex husband at that time. He passed 227 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 2: away at a young age, and she remember remembers her 228 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: father coming to the funeral and trying to sit next 229 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: to her kids, and she intentionally put her older son 230 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 2: in between them to kind of prevent him from getting 231 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: anywhere near her daughter. So she really didn't want anything 232 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: to do with him after the family broke up, but 233 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: especially after Dale was killed. 234 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: And all the publicity around this story. How did this 235 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: change Denise's life? Was it significant for Denise? 236 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: It was very hard after the wake. She had a baby, 237 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: She had her second child. She was pregnant at the 238 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: time that she last saw her brother. She was pregnant 239 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: as the case was breaking. I believe she talks about 240 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: being in the hospital after having delivered this baby and 241 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: seeing this on the news, but not quite putting her 242 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: brother's murder in connection with John Wayne Gacy. She did 243 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: attend some of the court proceedings and she wanted to 244 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 2: throw a shoe at John Wayne Gacy. It was kind 245 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: of like the only thing she could really think about doing. 246 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: She couldn't be in there and she had to leave. 247 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: And after that she really left Chicago in general. She 248 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: kind of went around. She was in Florida, she was 249 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: in Michigan. She struggled, She struggled with drugs, she struggled 250 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 2: with personal relationships, but she found her way back to Chicago, 251 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: which they think is like, really the highlight for me 252 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: in her story is that she was sitting on a 253 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: park bench one day in Southfield, Michigan, which is ironically 254 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: where I was born, and she just decided to get 255 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: her life together. She had to go back and be 256 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: with her kids, she had to stop using drugs, she 257 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: had to just try and rebuild her life. And so 258 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: it's been a process. I mean, she still is haunted 259 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: by her brother's death. This book was helpful for her. 260 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: It was slightly cathartic. I think I'd like to think 261 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: she herself has said as much. But you don't recover 262 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: from something like this fully. You never get over it. 263 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: You might make a little bit of peace with it, 264 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: but it will still be there in the background of 265 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: your head for sure. 266 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: How did Dale's story lead you to the stories of 267 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: other young men or boys who were victims of John 268 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy? 269 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: Who was next for you? 270 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: One story I really wanted to tell was the story 271 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: of Billy Carroll, who was about the same age as Dale, 272 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: but he was killed earlier on. He was killed in 273 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: June of nineteen seventy six, and nineteen seventy six was 274 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: the biggest year of murders for John Wayne Gacy. The 275 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: most boys were killed during that period and buried in 276 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: the Carl space. I'm still trying to figure out why 277 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: Billy Carroll resonated and resonates with me still. I think 278 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: perhaps it was because his brother also died after he 279 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: was murdered. His brother was killed almost a month after 280 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: the trial ended. So Billy Carroll's parents lost both of 281 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: their kids. But at the same time, they also had 282 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: this really really rough home dynamic. There was not a 283 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: lot of money, there was not a lot of food. 284 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: Later in my research, I discovered that they had a sister, 285 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: a sister that almost none of his friends even knew about. 286 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: I think one friend knew about it. But they had 287 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: a sister who was learning impaired or learning disabled, and 288 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: they could not care for her, and they gave her 289 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: up sometime in the nineteen sixties. So this family was 290 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: really aside from the fact that they had to deal 291 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: with this national murder story, this family had a ton 292 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: of hardships and was really down on their luck, living 293 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: in the impoverished neighborhood of Uptown, just like Dale was. 294 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: So his story was one I wanted to tell, but 295 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: it was one I knew that it was going to 296 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: be really hard to tell. There was no living relatives. 297 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: If anything, it was going to be cousins. Many of 298 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: the cousins didn't know him. So then I had to 299 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: find friends. How do you find friends for a young 300 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: man who didn't attend school, who lived mostly on the streets, 301 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: whose family is all deceased. How do you find that? 302 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: And somehow I ended up finding a third cousin of 303 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: his and who was actually quite good friends with him. 304 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: And then from there there was other names that led 305 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: some more names, and I was able to paint at 306 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 2: least a fragment of this sixteen year old boy's life. 307 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: And so he was next for me, But I wouldn't 308 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: say that he was next in terms of like completion. 309 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: He was something that I found pieces of along the way. 310 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: Until that final draft. I was able to like kind 311 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: of put him together as best as I could. 312 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: Well, what do we know about Billy's interaction with John 313 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy and how all of that unfolded and how 314 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: was he discovered? 315 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: So Billy Carroll was also working as a male hustler 316 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: sex worker at Clark and Diversity. His friends knew this. 317 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: Billy attempted to put his friends in contact with other men. 318 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 2: He was sort of facilitating these sexual encounters with young 319 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: boys and older men. I did not think I was 320 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: going to be able to learn about this. I did 321 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: not think I was going to find first hand accounts 322 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: of it because obviously there's a lot of shame with that, 323 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: but also there's an exposure to AIDS and HIV and 324 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: danger among the Johns. But I was able somehow to 325 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 2: find at least two individuals who could attest to the 326 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: fact that they met with John's at Clark and Diversity 327 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: with Billy Carroll. Billy Carroll was doing that because he 328 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: needed money. He was from a very, very poor family 329 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: and he needed money, but he also liked to buy 330 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 2: sports equipment. He had a pair of ice skates, boxing gloves. 331 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: He wanted to be able to afford that stuff because 332 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 2: he took care of his body. He was really trying 333 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: to work out and trying to become fit, because you 334 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: had to be strong, you had to be fit to 335 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: survive on the streets of Uptown. There were a lot 336 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: of gangs that young men, you know, kind of collided with, 337 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: and there was a lot of danger on Uptown that 338 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: you had to survive against. Money helped him facilitate that 339 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 2: strength and gain that strength working out by having the 340 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: best sports equipment that sort of thing. So that need 341 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: for money drove him to the place where you could 342 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: find quite a bit of money, and that was Clark 343 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: and diversity. Also bug House Square, which is right in 344 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 2: front of the Newberry Library here in Chicago, and so 345 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: those were sort of two of the hotspots for sex 346 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: work at that time, for meeting with older male gentlemen 347 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: who would drive around in their car and then haggle 348 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: with the young men over the price of any kind 349 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 2: of encounter. Really, so that's what led him there, and 350 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 2: he was discovered in the pros space as well. His 351 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: body was there sort of on top of several others. 352 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: There was sort of a singular grave there that contained 353 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: I think four remains of other young men, some of 354 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: whom have still not been identified. So that is the 355 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: story of Billy Carroll. 356 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: So now you're talking about so far two victims that 357 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: you've learned more about, and really it just sounds like, 358 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, these are people who come from very difficult backgrounds, 359 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: who are vulnerable. I mean, we hear this all the 360 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: time with the victims of some serial killers as the 361 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: vulnerability of the victims. 362 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's just sort of one segment of this 363 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 2: set of victims. The other set is the gay men 364 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: who were also victims. There were a couple young men 365 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: who were gay who were struggling with their sexuality or 366 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: fully out as best you could be in nineteen in 367 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: the late nineteen seventies, they met with John Wayne Gacy, 368 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: either by sex work themselves or just by happenstance being 369 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: at a gay bar where John Wayne Gacy was frequenting. 370 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 2: And of course there's not going to be a lot 371 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: of investigation into a young gay man's disappearance. There wasn't 372 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 2: much investigation into the disappearance of a straight young man 373 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: back in the days, especially a teenager. They were all runaways. 374 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: And so now you add the layer of homosexuality to this. 375 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: Chicago police are not going to look into this. 376 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: So I'm curious about your next road after you've sort 377 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: of addressed Dale and Billie. Where do you head next? 378 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: And how many families or friends of victims did you 379 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: end up talking to for your book? 380 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: Total only answer the first part. Where I headed next 381 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: then was Newtown, which today we call Boystown or North 382 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: allstet That has been the lgbt Q plus epicenter for 383 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 2: a long time. It was in the seventies more gay men, 384 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: but there were quite a few lesbian bars as well. 385 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: But back then it was called Newtown, And so I 386 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: wanted to learn about that neighborhood. I wanted to learn 387 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: about what it was like there during the time, but 388 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: I knew that was going to be hard because I 389 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: knew that what happens after the nineteen seventies for gay 390 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: Americans is the nineteen eighties, and that's a dark time, 391 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 2: as we all know, with the AIDS crisis. So I 392 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: was worried about finding enough witnesses to help me fill 393 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: in the blanks for that, and I was. I was 394 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: able to find men who lived their lives walking those 395 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 2: streets and heading to the bars and making friends and 396 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: living a proud life back then for as best you 397 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: could in the nineteen seventies. So that was sort of 398 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: my next area, especially because so many of the boys 399 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: had ties to Clark and Diversity, which was in Newtown, 400 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: one of the hotspots for sex work at the time, 401 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 2: So I knew I had to kind of paint a 402 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: portrait of that area as well. So that's where I 403 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: had it next. And then your other question about how 404 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: many victims, I think there were at least twelve to fifteen. 405 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: I've lost count at this point. Families who had some 406 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: sort of representatives speak to me, whether that was a sibling, 407 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: In some cases, obviously siblings are gone, so like in 408 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: the case of Billy Carroll, it was mostly friends that 409 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: spoke with me, so I would say at least twelve 410 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: to fifteen of the victims. And then I spoke with 411 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: the friends and family of two boys who are still 412 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: missing as of twenty twenty three, who were never linked 413 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: to johnman Gacy but fit the victimology of them. 414 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: After Craig, who is the next Gaysey victim? And who 415 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: do you talk to aside from those two boys, who 416 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: else is a really good representative of who John Gasey 417 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: was targeting? 418 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: So the next person I would probably say is Billy Kindred. 419 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: And Billy Kindred's story fulfilled sort of a wish of 420 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: mine that I wanted a love story within this book. 421 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: I wanted a coming of age love story. Billy Kindred 422 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: and Mary Jane Piper were a young couple. They met 423 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: when Mary Jane and her friend were hitchhiking on Irving 424 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: Park Road one summer afternoon, and Billy and his friend 425 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: Danny happened to be the ones that picked them up. 426 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: Then on out, Billy and Mary Jane were basically inseparable 427 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 2: and had plans eventually to get married. That was an 428 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: aspect of this coming of age story that I was seeing, 429 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: and I wanted to fit as a piece of puzzle 430 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: into the overall mosaic. I wanted that love story. I 431 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: thought that was really representative of being young and being 432 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: having this coming of age story cut short. Mary Jane 433 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 2: and I had a lot of long conversations that led 434 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: to conversations with some of his friends, that led to 435 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: conversations with his sister, and painted a picture of a 436 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 2: young man really wanting to prove himself, not just to 437 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 2: those around him, and not just to Mary Jane, but 438 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: to himself as well. He was down on himself about 439 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: not having prospects. He didn't finish school, he didn't have 440 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: a whole lot of job opportunities or anything like that. 441 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: But he wanted to make a life for himself and 442 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: make a life for Mary Jane, especially if they were 443 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: going to get married, which is what they intended to do. 444 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: Billy Kindred represents that vulnerability of needing that next move, 445 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: needing that next opportunity, and here comes John Wayne Gacy 446 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: with an opportunity he can't pass up, which is the 447 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: promise of a job. Billy Kindred calls Mary Jane the 448 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: night before he disappears, or the night he disappears, and 449 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: tells her he's met this man who's going to give 450 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: him a job, and that's the last time she ever 451 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: hears from him. And then sort of as a side note, 452 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: what people don't really know is that there was a 453 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: witness to Billy Kindred's murder. His friend was with him 454 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 2: that evening and went with Billy Kendred to John Wayne 455 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: Gacy's house, and this young man left apartment to get 456 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: cigarettes or beer and came back and actually saw John 457 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: Wyn Gacy huddled over Billy Kendred strangling him. Now, this 458 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: person was supposed to be a witness for the prosecution, 459 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 2: but because there were some questions about his suitability as 460 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: a witness, they withdrew him at the last minute. But 461 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: this is the only individual who's actually ever publicly claimed 462 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 2: that we know of officially who witnessed one of John 463 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: Gaisey's murdered. 464 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 3: That suitability because of drug. 465 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: Use, yes, and the fact that he was also hustling 466 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: also sort of dealing in drugs that made him less 467 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 2: believable on the witness stand, and the prosecution at that 468 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: point they wanted the family members. They wanted the mothers, 469 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: They wanted the sisters to really be the character witnesses 470 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: for these individuals and the last time and talk about 471 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,959 Speaker 2: the last time they saw them. So this sort of 472 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: broke the pattern of relatives and loved ones, but also 473 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: called into question his story. So they ended up withdrawing 474 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: this witness, which is not widely known. 475 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: I have sort of a question that popped in my head. 476 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: I hate focusing on John Wayne Gacy, but I don't 477 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: know this. Why if there were boys found, you know, 478 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: in the crawl space, and everything is connected to him, 479 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: why did he go to trial? Why not just take 480 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: a plea deal and get death penalty off the table whatever? 481 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 3: Why go through all of this for him? 482 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if I know the answer 483 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 2: to that question. I think he thought he could get 484 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 2: away with it on the question of insanity and get 485 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: a nice, cushy little spot in some asylum somewhere. I 486 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: think he thought that there was a way out, which 487 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,479 Speaker 2: is very delusional but also sort of indicative of who 488 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: Gaysey was. He always he talked himself out of shit 489 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: all the time. I mean, before the murders were found, 490 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: he had abducted several different boys and assaulted them, beat 491 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 2: them up. Police tied their cases to him, and he 492 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: still talked his way out. He was never charged. When 493 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: he lived in Iowa, he did serve some time, but 494 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 2: he got out of that for good behavior too. So 495 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: he's always gotten out of it because he's braggadocius. He 496 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: can talk his way out. He schmoozes people, he's got 497 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: ties do local police. They're invited to his parties and 498 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And you know, he goes to 499 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: the local moose club and makes friends with whoever's there. 500 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: So he probably thought he could talk his way out 501 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: and prove some sort of semblance of innocence and get 502 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: away with it. And he continue doing that after he 503 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: was sentenced to death. That's where the truth becomes quite 504 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: wurry for johnlemen Gacy. There's a famous interview he did, 505 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: I think it was with CBS where he's trying to 506 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: point the blame at others. He's trying to absolve himself 507 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 2: with these murders. He says he knows he has knowledge 508 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: of some of them, but not all of them, and 509 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 2: so he starts to paint this very exotic picture of 510 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: innocence to try and beat the death penalty at that point, 511 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: and I will not there is just the slightest bit 512 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: of truth to that. I do think some of the 513 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: teenage employees that we're living with him, I think they 514 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: have some knowledge of some of these murders. There are 515 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: business records that prove John Wyn Gacy was not in 516 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: town during one of the murders or traveling in and 517 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: around another murder, which would have made it hard for 518 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: him to both kill a boy and then dispose of 519 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: the body. Also, he was not in the best shape 520 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: over the course of the nineteen seventies. He also claimed 521 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 2: he had a heart condition, So getting down into this 522 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: very narrow crawl space and then pull a body down 523 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: in there with him, then dig a hole and then 524 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: cover it up, he couldn't necessarily do all that. Some 525 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: of the boys did dig trenches for what they thought 526 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: were pipes, but I don't think they could have not known. 527 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: In some cases, I think they had to have known something. 528 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: Wow, Well, let's move away from gaycy and back to 529 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: the victims. Who was the next person that we're talking 530 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: to now? Who was the youngest person that you learned about? 531 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: Samuel Stapleton was fourteen when he went missing. In May 532 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, just a month before Billy Carroll. And 533 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: what's odd about this is that I started realizing as 534 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: I was investigating or learning about Samuel Stapleton, that a 535 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: lot of these boys actually did know each other. 536 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: Oh I didn't know that. 537 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they weren't. You know, the closest of friends are 538 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: the best of friends. But Billy Carroll knew Samuel Stapleton 539 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: and Randy Riffett. And Samuel Stapleton and Randy Raffett probably 540 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: went missing together. This was one of Gacy's quote unquote 541 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: double murders that he committed, so they all knew each other. 542 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: I should note that Dale Land again, Billy Carroll, and 543 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: Billy Kindred all went to the same school where Randy 544 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: Riffett and Samuel Stapleton also went as well. So that's 545 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: five victims tied to one school. They were all part 546 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: of this one place, which is really sad to think 547 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: about that one man can pluck five different kids out 548 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: of the same general area and get away with it 549 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: for a number of years. So Samuel Stapleton was next. 550 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: I talked to all three of his siblings and they 551 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: spoke about sam going missing. In what Sam was like 552 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: Sam's interactions with the gangs of the area. How he 553 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: himself had to prove himself as the toughest kid in 554 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: Uptown so that he could walk the street safely, and 555 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: so his siblings could walk the streets safely. All they 556 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: had to do was mention his names. They got in 557 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: some trouble and kids would probably scatter or break away. 558 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: They didn't want to mess with anyone connected with Samuel Stapleton. Wow, 559 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: and his friend Randy Raffett, who disappeared with him, also 560 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: had a reputation for being tough and for winning fights 561 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: in Uptown, so they sort of hung together. 562 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: This does not seem like a pair of boys who 563 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: are ideal victims for an out of shape John Wayne Gacy. 564 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: So why target these two boys? Were Randy and Samuel 565 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: the same age? Were they both fourteen? 566 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: Samuel Stapleton was fourteen at the time and Randy Raffett 567 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: was fifteen at the time, so just a year difference. 568 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: Are they both from troubled homes? Do they have a 569 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: similar upbringing? 570 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: Yes, their family unit is intact for the most part, 571 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: but both of them are living on the edge of poverty. 572 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: The Raffett family, there is a little bit of physical 573 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: violence in that family. The Stapleton family not as much, 574 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: except among the siblings in general fights. But they aren't 575 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: living in Uptown, which is in impoverished area. Both families 576 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: are from Appalachia. Stapleton family goes back to Ohio where 577 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: they were very, very poor, living in a one story 578 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: shack with outpro plumbing, and then they came to Uptown 579 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: and it was sort of the same type of story. 580 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: And saye with the Refects. They were a little bit 581 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: more well off in Lexington, Kentucky, where they came from, 582 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: but here in Uptown they also lived on the edge 583 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: of poverty. 584 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: So what happens the day that Samuel and Randy are 585 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: together and they encounter John Wayne Gacy set up that 586 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: whole scenario for me. These two tough kids who were 587 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: used to dealing with shady people on the street, who 588 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: are used to fighting and to threatening and to you know, 589 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: just sort of being kids who didn't put up with 590 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: a whole lot what makes them John Wayne Gacy victims. 591 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: So their days, their final day, both of them, are 592 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: pretty innocuous. For Samuel Stapleton, he goes to see his sister, 593 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: who lives just around the corner from the family home 594 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: on her own, and he eats cookies and milk with 595 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: her as any other kid would do, and they talk 596 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: a little bit about the future. They talk a little 597 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: bit about his new job. He's working at a pizza parlor. 598 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 2: He's awaiting his first paycheck. It's everyday young man things. 599 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: And somewhere between his walk home from his sisters to 600 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: his families, he disappears for Randy Raffette. He comes home 601 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: from the dentist that day and he has a new 602 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: cap on his teeth. He shows it to his mother 603 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: and his grandmother and then heads out with really no 604 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: destination and intended but somewhere that evening him and Samuel 605 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: Stapleton meet up, and then they meet up with John 606 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy. What I suspect is that both these young 607 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: men were in need of money and jobs. Obviously, Samuel 608 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: Stapleton had a job, but Gaysey's offers were sometimes too 609 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 2: good to refuse because he offered a lot of money. 610 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 2: He was paying a lot more than a pizza parlor 611 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: in Uptown would have paid. And so there was that, 612 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 2: But then there was also probably a promise of drugs. 613 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy had access to marijuana, but also access 614 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: to prescription drugs. He was frequently renovating pharmacies across the Midwest, 615 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: and he himself admitted to pilfering a lot of the 616 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: drugs that were within these pharmacies. So he had access 617 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 2: to a lot of stuff. And for a young man 618 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: who's maybe a bit impressionable, this older man comes along, 619 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: promising money, promising drugs, promising whatever, they might go along 620 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: with it. And at some point, you know, these two 621 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: boys were very tough, very strong, very well built for 622 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 2: their age. Somehow he manages to subdue them. And that's 623 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: where that's where it becomes a little bit of a 624 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: gray area for me, like, how does he manage to 625 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: do that? Obviously there's handcuffs and possibly chloroform, that sort 626 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: of thing, but it just it does skew a little 627 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: bit towards disbelief that he could manage to kill two 628 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 2: young teenage boys in the course of the same evening. 629 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: And where are these two boys found? 630 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 2: Eventually, So both of these boys are found in the 631 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 2: crawl space, not far from one another. 632 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: And this must have been just absolutely devastating for their families. 633 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it must have been terrible for all of 634 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: these families. 635 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: What I think people don't realize is that these kids 636 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 2: weren't just murdered and then found. It was in the 637 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,959 Speaker 2: case of Samuel Stapleton and Randy Riffett, it was three 638 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: more years before his family. Their families had any kind 639 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: of answers, So they had to live with the rumors 640 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: coming in that sam was seen over here, or Randy 641 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: was seen over here, or he's alive there. They had 642 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: to leave with that little tease of hope every year 643 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 2: until till all of the sudden news breaks that bodies 644 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: have been found in this house out near the airport. 645 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: But even then that's not necessarily the police don't just 646 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 2: show up at your door and say, oh, yeah, we 647 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: found your son. There's the process of identification with it, 648 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 2: which in those days is mostly dental or circumstantial stuff 649 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 2: like if there's jewelry or anything like that. And for 650 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 2: Samuel Stapleton's family, they didn't find out then until almost 651 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: the full year after the case broke. He wasn't officially 652 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: identified until November nineteen seventy nine, so that's when they're 653 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: finally informed. They essentially almost waited over three years to 654 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: find out an answer, and one of the key clues 655 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: that allowed them to identify Samuel Stapleton was he had 656 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: a bracelet on his arm that was actually welded around 657 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: his arm so it couldn't come off. So he died 658 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 2: with that on his arm. Wow, And that was something 659 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 2: his parents knew they had, and that was almost the 660 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 2: lynchpin into realizing, yes, this is their son, sam He's 661 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: been found. 662 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: Do you think that because of the sheer number of 663 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: victims at least thirty three, that they all sort of 664 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: get lost? Feels like, once you've hit thirty three, how 665 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: would you unless the media really focuses in on each case, 666 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: how would you get to know any of the victims? 667 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: With that many people and that many stories, they must 668 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: just become one story, one big story. 669 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: You know what's odd about this is that right is 670 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 2: this case is breaking or right around the time just 671 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 2: before Jonestown is happening too, where you have nine hundred 672 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: the diet the hands of this cult essentially, and how 673 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: do you paint the individual portraits of that? And I 674 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 2: don't think that happened back in the time, in the 675 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: day for this, For the Gacy case, there was no 676 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: individual victim that really emerged except probably Rob Peace, who 677 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: was the last victim, and Rob Piece was from Displains. 678 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 2: He was what the is going to refer to as 679 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: the all American boy. He's a boy scout, he's a 680 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 2: good student, he's a young fifteen year old boy working 681 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: at a pharmacy. And that's the story that people are 682 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 2: going to gravitate to. That's the one that the media 683 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 2: is gonna leave with. And so he becomes sort of 684 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: the representative of the Gaysey case and the Gaycy victims. 685 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: If more of the suburban kids, and there are a 686 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: few of these suburban kids that actually become sort of 687 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 2: the face of the case, whereas the uptown boys, they 688 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,439 Speaker 2: get a little bit jettisoned off to the side, which 689 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: is unfortunate. There are articles where the families aren't interviewed. 690 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: There are news reports Billy Kindrid's mom was interviewed at 691 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 2: the courthouse, but that gets lost. Even Rob Peace gets 692 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: lost too, because people want to know about the clown. 693 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 2: People want to know why did this guy do it? 694 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: What did he do? Is he gonna be found guilty 695 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 2: or is he going to be found insane? That's what 696 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 2: the media figured people wanted to hear about, and what 697 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: people probably did want to hear about back in the day. 698 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 2: This was a new type of crime to them. This 699 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: was not Richard Speck or the Boston strangler. This was 700 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 2: the everyday guy next door living on your street, throwing 701 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 2: a Hawaiian Luau party and he's giving you a roast pig, 702 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 2: and underneath his dining room is the body of a 703 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 2: young man. So that's what these papers lead with, and 704 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: that's what people, I think probably want to hear about 705 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 2: back then too. 706 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you used an interesting word at the beginning of 707 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: this interview, which is gregarious. He was described as gregarious, 708 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: and that is what has scared people for generations. That person, 709 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: your next door neighbor, who seems totally normal, who has 710 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 1: watched over your kids when you run to the store, 711 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: who you know you would say, oh, you should go 712 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: on a date with my sister. That is the terrifying person. 713 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: It is not the Richard Speck. So the people you 714 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: look at and go what something's going on with that guy, 715 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: it's the person who is unsuspecting. So I think you 716 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: know that that is part of the fascination with John 717 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy. But what I love about your book is really, 718 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: are you are victim first? And We need more of 719 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: that in this space, in the true crime space, we 720 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: need more putting the victim up front and putting the 721 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: killer back. Doesn't mean ignoring the killer, because it's important 722 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: and that story is important. But to me, what's more 723 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: important is how we ended up here and what can 724 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: we learn from these stories. Not in a victim shaming way, 725 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: because we don't do that, but in a way where 726 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,879 Speaker 1: we just say, gosh, there's a vulnerability here that is systemic. 727 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: It shows us how systemic the problems are that we 728 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: have in society. 729 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 3: For the boys who. 730 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: Fell victim to him, the ones from Uptown specifically. 731 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think it's just given the chance 732 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 2: to hear these stories, someone's gonna find something that resonates 733 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 2: with them. They're going to resonate with the love story 734 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: between Billy Kindred and Mary Jane Piper. They're gonna resonate 735 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 2: with Sam Stapleton's desire to find a job and his 736 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 2: excitement for that very first paycheck. They're gonna resonate with 737 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 2: those individual little stories in a way that's gonna bring 738 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 2: these victims back to life and steal the focus back 739 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 2: from them. It's not to say that there isn't anything 740 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 2: more we can probably say about John man Gacy, but 741 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 2: he's also had his time and the son. I think 742 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: it's these victims that really form a mosaic of what 743 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 2: it means to be American. 744 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 745 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 746 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 747 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis em Rosi. Our 748 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mix by 749 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. 750 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 751 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 752 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more and if you 753 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 754 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 755 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. We'll also take your 756 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words