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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four fifty six of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. When we think

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Speaker 1: about depression, there's a common image that comes to mind,

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Speaker 1: sleeping all day or not enough, withdrawing from responsibilities, and

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Speaker 1: feeling an overall inability to function. And while that image

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Speaker 1: is accurate, it doesn't tell the whole story of what

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Speaker 1: depression can look like. For many people, especially black women,

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Speaker 1: depression can show up on the complete opposite end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. Instead of withdrawing, we give too much thrusting,

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Speaker 1: ourselves into our jobs, family responsibilities, and over committing to

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Speaker 1: whatever keeps us constantly in motion, and in trying to

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Speaker 1: overcome racial oppression and gender discrimination, we mass that pain

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Speaker 1: under layers of hyperactivity and perfectionism. This is what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as high functioning depression, up getting things done and

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Speaker 1: even excelling while feeling completely disconnected from what makes you

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Speaker 1: feel grounded. Here to unpack what that really looks like

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Speaker 1: is a guest you may have heard on the show before,

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Speaker 1: doctor Judith Joseph. In her book High Functioning, Overcome your

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Speaker 1: Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, she explores how depression

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Speaker 1: can hide behind competence and accomplishment, particularly for people who

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Speaker 1: have been conditioned to cling to resilience in their most

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Speaker 1: challenging moments. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TVG in session, or join us over in our patreon

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Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, doctor.

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Speaker 2: Judith, thanks for having me. It's good to see you again.

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Speaker 1: Likewise likewise, so the last time we chatted, we were

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Speaker 1: talking all about how your mental health might be impacted

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Speaker 1: by social media. And a lot has happened for you

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Speaker 1: since we livet So you've released your first book called

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Speaker 1: High Functioning Depression, and I would love to hear from you,

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Speaker 1: doctor Judius, because you are well rid and well versed

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Speaker 1: in so many topics. What made high functioning depression the

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Speaker 1: topic for your first book.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of people walk around wearing

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Speaker 2: this mask of pathological productivity. On the outside, they look

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Speaker 2: put together. You'd never know that they were struggling inside,

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Speaker 2: without joy, lacking interest, because frankly, they're not functioning right,

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Speaker 2: They're still functioning showing up their rocks. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: that people turn to for help. They're the friend who

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Speaker 2: seems like they have it all put together. And in

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Speaker 2: mental health, unfortunately, we wait for people to break down

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Speaker 2: before we start interveading, whereas in other areas of health,

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Speaker 2: we don't wait until people have like stage four cancer.

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Speaker 2: We're like, let's catch the cancer, let's reduce the risk. Right,

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Speaker 2: We're not waiting people have a heart attack. We're saying,

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Speaker 2: let's address the risk of heart disease. In mental health,

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Speaker 2: we're still waiting for people to break down. And I

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Speaker 2: just kept seeing people in my practice coming in who

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Speaker 2: were struggling with the lack of joy, something called ann hodonia.

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Speaker 2: They didn't know what it was. They'd never heard of it,

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Speaker 2: and I had to educate them that this is something

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Speaker 2: that's in the medical literature. We know of it, but

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Speaker 2: many people don't know what it's called. So there is

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Speaker 2: a way to reclaim your joy. And when I wrote

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Speaker 2: High Functioning, I was very intentional about the cover of it,

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Speaker 2: where I wanted people to be walking in a bookstore

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Speaker 2: and see, oh, look, high functioning. That's me. Let me

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Speaker 2: open this and be like, hold on, wait a second,

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Speaker 2: I think I'm depressing. The subtitle is about overcoming hidden

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Speaker 2: depression because many of us hide our emotions, especially as

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Speaker 2: black women. We push it down, we put our own

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Speaker 2: emotions to aside, we take care of others. And this

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Speaker 2: book is about reclaiming joy.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting and I appreciate that you're calling out

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Speaker 1: antadonia because it is one of the classic, like Hallwark,

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Speaker 1: depressive symptoms, and you're saying that you found a lot

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Speaker 1: of your patients just didn't even know that it was

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Speaker 1: a thing that they needed to be connected to why

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Speaker 1: do you think that is given that it is one

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Speaker 1: of the things we are typically looking for to diagnose oppression.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, I went to a very large therapy conference

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Speaker 2: and I went around collecting content and asking different therapists

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Speaker 2: what is antadonia? What is antadonia? A lot of therapists

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Speaker 2: had never heard of ant hoadonia. And I think there's

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Speaker 2: this inherent bias within healthcare where we look for people

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Speaker 2: to break down. We're looking for very obvious signs. We're

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Speaker 2: looking for someone crying, We're looking for someone not getting

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Speaker 2: out of bed. We're not looking for someone who's feeling

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Speaker 2: nothing or lacking joy, and we overlook it. If you

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Speaker 2: go to your doctor and you're like, I'm not sleeping

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Speaker 2: while my eating habits have changed, but I'm still functioning,

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Speaker 2: They're not going to say, well, are you still enjoying life?

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Speaker 2: They're going to say, are you suicidal? Are you breaking down?

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Speaker 2: You know, like what's happening in terms of your functioning.

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Speaker 2: They're really not looking for whether or not you're enjoying life,

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Speaker 2: that you're actually seeking pleasure or interested in things, because

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Speaker 2: in our healthcare system, that's not considered a crisis. That's

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Speaker 2: not a problem that healthcare professionals can fix. So we're

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Speaker 2: very reactive in our approaches to mental health versus being

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Speaker 2: proactive and looking for signs of ant hodonia. When you

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Speaker 2: eat your food, does it taste good? When you connect

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Speaker 2: with a loved one? Do you feel seen and heard

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Speaker 2: when you're listening to music? Does it light you up?

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Speaker 2: If we were to ask those type of questions, then

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Speaker 2: we would uncover ant hodonia. But we're not asking that.

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Speaker 2: We're asking are you suicidal? Are you having thoughts you

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Speaker 2: don't want to live anymore? So, because we're always looking

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Speaker 2: for the crisis, the clear crisis, we're missing the existential crisis.

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Speaker 2: Is life even worth living for you? And I think

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Speaker 2: many healthcare professionals, especially doctors and nurses, they probably struggle

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Speaker 2: with ant hodonia too. When you think about it, they're

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Speaker 2: in fast paids lives. They're taught inherently to take care

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Speaker 2: of everyone else but themselves. Patient comes first. They work

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Speaker 2: long shifts, they don't even like pee or go for

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Speaker 2: bathroom breaks or eat properly right, So they're already inherently

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Speaker 2: and hedonic. So why would you look for something that

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Speaker 2: you're experiencing that you've normalized. Why would you even look

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Speaker 2: for that in your own patients. You'd be like, well,

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Speaker 2: you're not in crisis, you're not societal'll come back next year,

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Speaker 2: come back when you break down. And so I think

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Speaker 2: that it's a shift that needs to occur within healthcare,

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Speaker 2: some would say first, in order to really address it

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Speaker 2: in the general population.

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Speaker 1: And I know you are kind of one of the

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Speaker 1: first doing kind of large scale research on high functioning depression.

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Speaker 1: And I think when I think about like Black women

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Speaker 1: in the way that depression often shows up for us,

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Speaker 1: right like in large point due to our socialization, that

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Speaker 1: like stuff just has to keep going, like you can

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Speaker 1: deal with your mood later, like you just got to

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Speaker 1: keep going. I would be curious to know if Black

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Speaker 1: women don't over index in terms of high functioning depression.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the work that

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Speaker 1: you've done and what your research is showing in terms

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Speaker 1: of Black women in high functioning depression.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing about my study is that it's the

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Speaker 2: first study and high functioning depression in the world. And

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Speaker 2: when I was writing it up and submitting it to

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Speaker 2: IRBs and in the process of ParaView, I remember the

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Speaker 2: people who were reviewing it, were like looking for other

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Speaker 2: papers in the world, and they just kept looking and

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Speaker 2: then they were like, wait, this is the first study

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Speaker 2: in the world, and I was just shocked it is

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Speaker 2: the first one. We do need more research in this area.

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Speaker 2: But what we found in this first study is that

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Speaker 2: there seems to be a high correlation between caregiving and antedonia,

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Speaker 2: which is not rocket science, right. If you are taking

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Speaker 2: care of other people all the time, and because that's

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Speaker 2: your priority, you're not really prioritizing yourself. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to have interest in things you once enjoyed, You're not

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Speaker 2: going to be feeling joy, and so that was not

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Speaker 2: a surprising finding. Another finding was that there's a high

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Speaker 2: correlation between HFD and trauma, and that was interesting because

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Speaker 2: our hypothesis is that people who are trying to outrun

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Speaker 2: past pain may be using busying as a coping mechanism.

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Speaker 2: So when you think of the classic trauma responses, usually

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Speaker 2: people want to avoid people, places, and situations that trigger

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Speaker 2: negative emotions. But with high functioning folks, people avoid negative

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Speaker 2: emotions by just taking on other tasks. So these are

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Speaker 2: the people who will say when I sit still, I

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Speaker 2: feel restless. When I'm not busy. I feel empty why

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Speaker 2: because their go to coping mechanism is too busy to distract.

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Speaker 2: And you know, initially it doesn't look all that bad, right,

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Speaker 2: it looks productive, pathologically productive, because on the outside you're

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Speaker 2: doing all these great things. People are saying you're killing it,

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Speaker 2: but secretly it is actually killing you, right, because over time,

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Speaker 2: you're going to neglect your basic needs. Over time, your

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Speaker 2: body may break down. You may actually develop a depression

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Speaker 2: where a depressive episode where you stop functioning, or you

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Speaker 2: may start to cope with your pain in ways that

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Speaker 2: are not healthy, like excessive drinking, other excessive behaviors that

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Speaker 2: are not really healthy for you. So something's going to

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Speaker 2: give eventually. And so we found those two correlations as trauma.

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Speaker 2: And when we were interviewing patients, we didn't just do

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Speaker 2: a survey. We I have a lab in Manhattan. We

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Speaker 2: had the research staff, myself interview people, collect the data.

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Speaker 2: Because what we found is that when you send out

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Speaker 2: surveys tends to not be as accurate as when you're

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Speaker 2: talking to people. And sometimes people don't understand something they

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Speaker 2: ask for clarification. So when we were talking with people,

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Speaker 2: we were surprised to learn that a lot of times

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Speaker 2: people didn't even realize that, like, oh, this painful thing

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Speaker 2: that happened was a trauma and I didn't know how

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Speaker 2: it shaped me. I just kind of just pushed it down,

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Speaker 2: never talked about it, and just kept going. And so

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Speaker 2: when we did our trauma inventories, we were very intentional

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Speaker 2: about including things that we typically don't see a PTSD diagnosis. So,

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Speaker 2: in order to meet criteria for PTSD, your trauma has

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Speaker 2: to be either life threatening or assault, you know, like

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Speaker 2: something like a combat or a motor vehicle accident or

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Speaker 2: someone attacking you. But if things like let's say a

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Speaker 2: severe bankruptcy and that left you homeless in the real world,

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Speaker 2: a therapists say, oh, that's traumatizing, but according to textbook standards,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't count as a trauma. So we wanted to

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Speaker 2: include these experiences that are painful that shape the way

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Speaker 2: that you view yourself and the way that you view

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Speaker 2: yourself in the world.

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Speaker 1: And doctor, did you find that there were any particular

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Speaker 1: like categories of trauma that seem to be more correlated

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Speaker 1: with high functioning depression.

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Speaker 2: Definitely the big T traumas, so more severe traumas like

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Speaker 2: being physically attacked. The ones that typically meet criteria for PTSD,

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Speaker 2: those tend to be highly correlated. And that makes sense

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Speaker 2: because you know, one of the symptoms of trauma and

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Speaker 2: there are like over thirty symptoms of trauma. People think

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Speaker 2: it's just like hypervigilance or flashbacks or nightmares. There are

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Speaker 2: thirty plus and so one of the symptoms of trauma

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Speaker 2: is actually like internalizing self blame, shame, and guilt. And

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Speaker 2: we know that this is like the human brain's way

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Speaker 2: of coping with how did something bad happen to me?

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Speaker 2: Why did something bad happen to me? And many times

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Speaker 2: when bad things happen to us, our brains automatically goes

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Speaker 2: into this like very regressive default mode, like a child

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Speaker 2: would think like, oh, I must have done something bad,

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Speaker 2: there must be something about me, versus a more mature

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Speaker 2: or a higher level of thinking about it would be, oh,

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Speaker 2: bad things happen to good people all the time, Right,

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Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. But our brains do that as

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Speaker 2: a way of kind of controlling the situation because we

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Speaker 2: don't like uncertainty. So it's like, something bad happens to

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Speaker 2: me because I'm bad, right, And so many times folks

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Speaker 2: don't have their trauma process, will go on this path

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Speaker 2: in life where they people please, where they've been over backwards,

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Speaker 2: where they don't feel worthy of rest because they don't

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Speaker 2: feel worthy internally. And that is a trauma response that

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Speaker 2: many folks don't even connect. They don't even make that

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Speaker 2: correlation because they haven't fully doubt what their trauma. They're

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Speaker 2: still trying to outrun it.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you can talk about if we're talking about some

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Speaker 1: symptoms that aren't necessarily like your classic depressive symptoms and

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Speaker 1: some that are, so what would it look like Is

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Speaker 1: this a diagnosis that people are getting of high functioning depression?

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Speaker 1: Like how would you talk with your therapists or your

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Speaker 1: psychiatrist about Like, Hey, I read this book, but I

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Speaker 1: think that this might be me Like what kinds of

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Speaker 1: things would you be looking for to figure out? Like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: is this something I'm struggling with.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting is that years ago, when I first started

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Speaker 2: creating content about high functioning depression, I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of therapists saying, Oh, that's not real. Why are we

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Speaker 2: talking about high functioning depression? We need to be talking

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Speaker 2: about clinical depression. What I said was, listen, there's enough

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Speaker 2: depression to go around for all of us, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: let's not try to compete with each other. But now

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Speaker 2: I have therapists reaching out to me saying thank you

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Speaker 2: for this book because I have so many clients who

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Speaker 2: are still killing it, who are still crushing it, who

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Speaker 2: are still showing up, but they are struggling with antedonia.

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Speaker 2: They're using work, they're using business as a coping mechanism,

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Speaker 2: and frankly, there's like nothing out there for them. And

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Speaker 2: so now I think a lot of therapists are realizing

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Speaker 2: that depression has many different faces. That not everyone stays

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Speaker 2: in bed, not everyone's crying, not everyone's shutting down, some

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Speaker 2: people can't sit still, and many times it's misdiagnosed as anxiety.

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Speaker 2: And not to say that the two don't travel together,

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Speaker 2: but anxiety has a lot of physical symptoms. When you

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Speaker 2: look at generalized anxiety disorder, there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: physical physiological symptoms of anxiety like tummy, a tension in

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Speaker 2: your body, heart racing, sweaty palms, feel like you're going

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Speaker 2: to pass out, and you don't see anadonia there. And

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Speaker 2: so the key thing a lot of these therapists are

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Speaker 2: seeing is something called anadonia, this lack of interest, this

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Speaker 2: lack of pleasure. And it's one thing if your client

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Speaker 2: is busy and productive and enjoying it. But what these

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Speaker 2: therapists are telling me is that they have these clients

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Speaker 2: that look great on the outside. They're doing many things,

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Speaker 2: but they don't enjoy it and they can't slow down.

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Speaker 2: And that is the key, right, because as human beings,

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Speaker 2: we were built with the DNA for joy. It's literally

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Speaker 2: built into our genetic code. So if you are not

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Speaker 2: experiencing joy, if you've lost your ability to reclaim joy,

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Speaker 2: that is a problem. Right. It's not going to get

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Speaker 2: you admitted to hospital. It's not a medical emergency, but

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Speaker 2: it is an existential crisis and it's something that you

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Speaker 2: are deserving of. So if you're lacking joy, don't ignore it.

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Speaker 1: So that is what you would really kind of qualify

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Speaker 1: is like the homework of high functioning depression is this antedonia,

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Speaker 1: and like the lack of joy.

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Speaker 2: The lack of joy, the antedonia and the inability to

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Speaker 2: sit still, right, because that's what makes it different than

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Speaker 2: this anxiety, right, the inner restlessness. What we found in

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Speaker 2: our clinical research study is this inability to sit still

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Speaker 2: because you're outrunning pain. You think you're chasing happiness, but

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Speaker 2: you're trying to outrun something you haven't processed in the past.

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Speaker 2: When people finally click that together, they really want to understand, well, one,

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Speaker 2: did I actually stop experiencing joy? When did this painful

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Speaker 2: situation occur? Like, I need to figure this out. And

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Speaker 2: this is important because this can actually help you to

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Speaker 2: start to change the way that you cope with pain.

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Speaker 2: Rather than pushing it down, you may start to validate it.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I put the five v's in my

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Speaker 2: book because I want it people to use a simple method,

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Speaker 2: a step by step path towards reclaiming joy, and it

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Speaker 2: starts with validation.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk more about the five vs?

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Speaker 2: Five is a number that's been popping up in a

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Speaker 2: lot of my travels. I traveled the world studying mental

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Speaker 2: health issues, and five I think pops up across the

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Speaker 2: globe because most of us have five fingers, right, and

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Speaker 2: so validation is the first fee. When you think about validation,

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Speaker 2: validation is acknowledging how you feel and accepting it no

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Speaker 2: matter what, without judgment. It usually is this analogy of

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Speaker 2: imagine you're in a dark room, pitch black, you can't

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Speaker 2: see anything, and you hear a loud crash. Well, some

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Speaker 2: of us would start freaking out, some of us start screaming,

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Speaker 2: some would start swinging, some of us would start running.

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Speaker 2: But if you turn the light on and you saw

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Speaker 2: that it was an inanimate object that fell and you're safe,

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Speaker 2: then you're like, oh, certainty has gone away. We feel

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Speaker 2: at ease. So when you acknowledge how you feel and

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Speaker 2: you turn the light on on what's really happening. That's

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Speaker 2: how many of my clients feel. Sometimes I have men

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Speaker 2: come to my office and they're like, I am so angry.

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Speaker 2: My wife says, I need anger management. We peel back

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Speaker 2: on that emotion, like, are you really angry? What makes

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Speaker 2: you think you're angry? Well, I was yelling, and I said,

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Speaker 2: well that's a behavior, right, yelling could be anger, but

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Speaker 2: it could be something else. Well, I slammed doors. Again,

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Speaker 2: it's a behavior. What did you really feel? And then

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Speaker 2: we take some time and we figured it out and

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Speaker 2: the person's actually quite worried. They're worried about not providing,

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Speaker 2: they're worried about being a failure. And so that's why

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Speaker 2: it's important to name your emotion and name and acknowledge

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Speaker 2: your experiences, because only then when you turn that light

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Speaker 2: on can you actually figure out the appropriate mechanism. Because

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Speaker 2: the tools for anger, you know this, very different than

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Speaker 2: the tools for worry, and so validation can be self validation.

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Speaker 2: It could be you acknowledging it and accepting it for yourself.

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Speaker 2: We can validate other people with my tools in the

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Speaker 2: book The Quizzes. I find these rating scales to be

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Speaker 2: very validating because in medicine, if you have like a

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Speaker 2: heart condition or you can go for a test, you

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Speaker 2: can get an EKG. If you have high cholesterol, you

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Speaker 2: can go for blood work. But for mental health we

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Speaker 2: don't have that as yet. So I need it to

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Speaker 2: have these measures, these ways to validate using actual tools,

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Speaker 2: and so validation could be in the form of a

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Speaker 2: rating scale. If you're wondering, oh do I have Antedonia

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Speaker 2: created these rating skills based on some of the other

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Speaker 2: research tools that I use in my lab for my

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Speaker 2: clinical studies, so that you can say, okay, what level

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Speaker 2: do I have of anaedonia? And some of my clients

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Speaker 2: will flo out the Anadonia rating scale and they'll be like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like, I don't enjoy half the things

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Speaker 2: I used to do right, and I would not have

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Speaker 2: known had I not filled out this rating scale. So

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Speaker 2: there are many ways to validate the second V is venting.

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Speaker 2: So in my lab, I'll have people take turns with

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Speaker 2: this big balloon, and we'll take turns dunking it into

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Speaker 2: a big tank of water, and one hundred percent of

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Speaker 2: time that balloon pops up. Why because you can't out

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Speaker 2: math physics right, It's going to pop up one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent of time. And then we'll take turns deflating this balloon,

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Speaker 2: and what happens. We can easily push this balloon, deflate

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Speaker 2: a balloon at the bottom of the tank. And so

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Speaker 2: I like this analogy because if you don't express your emotions,

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Speaker 2: if you don't get it out right, then you imagine

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Speaker 2: that at balloon, your emotions will pop up in your health. Right,

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Speaker 2: many of us have these migraines, we have these tummy pains,

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Speaker 2: we don't even know what's going on, body aches. It'll

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Speaker 2: pop up in our relationships, so we snap at our

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Speaker 2: loved ones. It'll pop up out work. So that's why

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Speaker 2: it's important to get in the practice of expressing how

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Speaker 2: you feel and Venting can be done verbally, It could

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Speaker 2: be done in a therapy setting with a therapist. It

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Speaker 2: could be done with journal writing. Validating. Venting can be

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Speaker 2: done through expressions such as prayer for people who are

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Speaker 2: faith based, so you can vent in many different ways.

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Speaker 2: You got to find a way that's healthy for you.

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Speaker 2: What about the other three? Well, and before I go

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Speaker 2: into the other three venting their dos and don't, right,

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Speaker 2: you don't want to be trauma dumping on people. I

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Speaker 2: always tell my clients, if you're venting to your kids,

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Speaker 2: I'd rather vent to me because your child isn't going

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Speaker 2: to say, Mommy, I don't want to talk to Your

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Speaker 2: child will listen because they want to feel connected to you.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to be rejected. But they're going to

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Speaker 2: worry about you, right, So think think about who you're

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Speaker 2: venting to. Is it someone in a lower position of

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Speaker 2: power than you? Is this person going to resent you

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Speaker 2: like an employee? And also be very intentional about it.

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Speaker 2: Are you venting just to get people on your side

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Speaker 2: and you don't really care about the resolution or are

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Speaker 2: you really intentional about Okay, I have a problem, I

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Speaker 2: need to get it solved. I'm going to be unbiased.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to ask people who I trust to give

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Speaker 2: me honest feedback. Right, and before you vent to people

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Speaker 2: if it's not your therapist, because if you pay a therapist,

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Speaker 2: you can say whatever you want, right. But when you're

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Speaker 2: venting to people in your life, really check in and

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Speaker 2: ask for emotional consent. Ask is this okay? Time? Is

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Speaker 2: this going to trigger you? Right? So, there are dos

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Speaker 2: and don'ts to venting, And what's exciting doctor Joy is

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Speaker 2: that there's recent research on why proper venting Why, Like

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Speaker 2: there's evidence based venting why it's important because if you're

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Speaker 2: venting in that trauma dumping way, you actually feel worse.

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Speaker 2: They liken it to pouring gas on a fire. So

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Speaker 2: you want to vent with intention, You want to vent

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Speaker 2: with emotional consent. The third bee is well, don't you.

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Speaker 1: Joseph, I want to dudge you. I want to stay

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Speaker 1: here because there's been lots of conversations around like trauma

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Speaker 1: dubbing online, and I'm really glad you dove into that

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Speaker 1: because in my mind, there is a difference like what

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Speaker 1: I am doing with clients in session, even if they

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Speaker 1: are vincing so to speak, like we are processing, working

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Speaker 1: through it. What I imagine happening with vincing to like

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Speaker 1: a best friend is just like you might say like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this thing happened to me, and maybe your friend is

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Speaker 1: just saying like, oh my gosh, that's really messed up,

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Speaker 1: and that feels very different to me. So can you

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Speaker 1: talk about like the difference in what like would be

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Speaker 1: venting to a therapist versus venting to a friend. And

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Speaker 1: if you are venting to a friend, should you expect

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Speaker 1: there to be some resolution from the venting.

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Speaker 2: That's a really great question. Usually with my clients, what

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Speaker 2: I advise is you pick one or two people because

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Speaker 2: and I talk about this in the book, you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be like a sprinkler. You don't want to

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Speaker 2: be like anyone who could listen, this is what happens,

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Speaker 2: This will happen, you know, like because that will unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: that will bite you in the end. People talk, and

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Speaker 2: you can't trust everyone. But when you get into a

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Speaker 2: practice of identifying one or two trusted individuals, you want

429
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 2: to nurture that relationship. And what I mean by nurturing

430
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: is you want to make sure there's reciprocity. Right, if

431
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: you're my go to friend, I'm your go to friend

432
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: right when you need help, I'm there. When I need help,

433
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 2: You're there and check in with them. Emotional consent looks

434
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: like I have something really painful to tell you and

435
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: I'm really struggling. Is this a good time or can

436
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: we schedule a call? Right? That's what emotional consent looks like.

437
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: It doesn't like, let me call this person and start

438
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: crying on the phone. Right. And yes, none of us

439
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: are perfect. We'll have those days, but generally speaking, you

440
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: want to have that relationship as being sacred. Now, it's

441
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 2: different with a therapist. You and I know that when

442
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: someone has trusted us with their mental health, it's not

443
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: about us. Right, not to say you treat your therapist poorly,

444
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: but you know your therapist is there to listen to

445
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: you and to literally understand your patterns over time, to

446
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: take notes, to guide you, but not tell you what

447
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: to do. Right. That's why we go to school for

448
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: so many years and then to pull on these We

449
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 2: go and we do our research and we come back

450
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: with these different tools because this is a therapeutic relationship,

451
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: so it's very different. You don't have to be like,

452
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: is it okay if I tell this? No, we want

453
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: you to tell us there's none that. Usually we don't share.

454
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: There are some cases where we do share if it

455
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: is appropriate for the treatment, but usually it's not like, okay,

456
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: now it's my turn, you know. And if you're in

457
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: a therapy and your therapist tells you way more than

458
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: they should be, you may want to think about that, right.

459
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: So they're very different relationships, but generally I would say

460
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: pick one or two people, and there's this understanding that

461
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: this is how you vent. We're not just trying to

462
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 2: like pour gas into a fire. When we get together

463
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 2: and when we share something that's happened to us, we're

464
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: looking for an honest feedback and how to resolve a situation,

465
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: not just gossiping, not just tearing people down, not just

466
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: doing this because it feels good in the moment but

467
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: then feels awful later. There's a real goal to this venting. Goat,

468
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: thank you for that clarification. So you're reading to the

469
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: fourth of the values. These are things that bring your

470
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: life meaning and purpose. You see the the accolades in

471
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: the background. I have so many degrees I can't even

472
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: hang them all. There was a time in my life

473
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: when that was all that matter. And I'm from a

474
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: Caribbean background. I came to this country with very little,

475
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: so it was always like you got to get as

476
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: many degrees as possible. You're here and other people aren't.

477
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: You got to take advantage of any and all opportunities.

478
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: And there was a time when I did that. And

479
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but

480
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: over time, if you have to really think about what

481
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: it is that's happening, are you seeking out things that

482
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: have price tags or are they truly priceless? And for me,

483
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: the priceless part of my love hate journey with knowledge

484
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: and learning, the priceless part was when I was a

485
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: lot younger, and I just love to learn. I was

486
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: very curious. I wanted to get my hands on everything

487
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: just for the sake of learning. But for premetters out there,

488
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: when you start that pre med journey, sometimes it can

489
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: be so intense that you're just about I just don't

490
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: want to fail. You just want to like get through it,

491
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: and you stop. Actually, at least for me, it stopped

492
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 2: being about the knowledge and the curiosity. It was more about, well,

493
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: I just can't fail. So then you start to get

494
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: numb to the a's and the accolades. And it was

495
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: during twenty twenty where personally I was at a peak

496
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: in my career where I had just gotten onto this

497
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: board at Columbia, this prestigious board, and like it was

498
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: always on TV and like everyone was like, wow, you're

499
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: doing so well. And I was experiencing the worst anadonia

500
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: of my life. And I just thought, well, what's the

501
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: point of having all the success if there's no joy?

502
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: And I had to do a deep dive into what

503
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 2: really brought me purpose and meaning, and for me, it

504
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: was going back to my past and looking at times

505
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: where I actually felt full and fed, as in like, wow,

506
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: this is meaningful. And I remember it was when I

507
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: was helping others and when I was learning for fun.

508
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: So I started reading again. If I just started one

509
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: stop reading again. I remember I read Michelle Mama's book Becoming,

510
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: and I was like, why didn't I read this before?

511
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: Like oh, because I was so busy reading research protocols,

512
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: internal articles. Right, So I just started like reading for

513
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: fun again and it just like lit me up. And

514
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: then I thought, well, let me start doing things for

515
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: others that don't pay me, just out of like the

516
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: goodness of my heart. Because I grew up in the

517
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: church volunteering and that used to make me feel joyful.

518
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: Started doing that again, and slowly my aunt Hadonia went away.

519
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: But I think many of us we don't realize that

520
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: the things that are really priceless, those are things that

521
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: really matter, because when you're in your last minutes of life,

522
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: you're not going to be like I wish I had

523
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: another degree, or I wish I had a house another house.

524
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: You're going to say like I wish I could spend

525
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: five minutes doing the things that made life worth living,

526
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: you know. So that could be your family, it could

527
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: be your faith, it could be a cause that you

528
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: believed in. Usually it's not things with the price tags.

529
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: So try and tap into those things. And that's what

530
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: the values are. And there's a lot of evidence on values.

531
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: There's a lot of research on it, both in the

532
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: spiritual community and the religious community and in the mental

533
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: health community.

534
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, well, doctor Judy,

535
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: I want to stuff you because something you mentioned makes

536
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: me think about I know you are a mom. I'm

537
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: a mom. Lots of moms in the community, lots of

538
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: people with little ones in our lives, and so many

539
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: of us come from these families where it's the whole

540
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: idea of like you got to work twice as hard

541
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: to get half as much.

542
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: Success is really driven by like degrees.

543
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: And so when you think about, like maybe with your

544
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: own child, and like any suggestions for people who are

545
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: raising little ones around, like how to not reinforce this

546
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: idea that this is what really makes you happy, Like

547
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: these are the things that really matter.

548
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 2: The thing I love about my daughter, she just turned nine,

549
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: is that she's very different than me. She is more

550
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: about like the soft life. She'll be like, so I'll

551
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: be you know, I'll be like, Okay, we gotta do this,

552
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: we gotta do this, And she's like, Mom, I'm tired,

553
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: and you look tired too, And I'm like, you know what,

554
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: I am tired, thank you.

555
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: You know.

556
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: So, I really like now to listen to the people

557
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: in my life. I listen to my daughter, I listen

558
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: to my lab, like the people at work in my lab.

559
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: If they're like, listen, we're doing too much, I listen

560
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: and I slow down. Whereas before it was like, come on, guys,

561
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: we just have to do more. We just have to

562
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: but validating others, right, you know, the first V has

563
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: been very instrumental in my journey. And I used to

564
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: have this deep fear that if I slow down had

565
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: all nothing thinking that meant stopping slow down. Slowing down

566
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: is not stopping. And what I found personally is that

567
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: when I slow down and I focus on one or

568
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: two projects that are really important, I flourish versus trying

569
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: to do everything, because then none of those projects flourish,

570
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: they're just like half done. So listening to others has

571
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: been a tool that I've incorporated in my life. But

572
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: for my patients who maybe don't have a network of

573
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: people around to listen to or to get feedback from,

574
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: I say, listen to your body. We all have a

575
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: part of our body that starts to It's like our

576
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: tell right. Personally, if my nails are not being done,

577
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I'm too busy, right. But for others

578
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: it could be if you're back there's a certain part

579
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: of your back that's aching. It means that you're working

580
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: too much or you're doing too much. For others, it

581
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: could be their hair, right, Just listen to your body.

582
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: It could be your skin. There's a whole field of

583
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: psychodermatology where your skin literally will tell you what's happening,

584
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: you know mentally, So if you don't have someone to

585
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: guide you, just listen to yourself, self validate and that

586
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: can help you to point you in the right direction.

587
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: So that sounds like modeling really for the little people

588
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: in our lives is really helpful, right, like getting a

589
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: chick on our own kind of productivity and then modeling

590
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: that so that the kids and have a self life.

591
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: As you mentioned. Yeh, yes, So my daughter, I'm very

592
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: intentional about. Okay, we're gonna do things slowly and with compassion,

593
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: right self compassion. I was raised by a mom who

594
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: had four kids back to back, like one one year apart.

595
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: And we have a lot of hair. And my mom

596
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: she's an Indian Caribbean background, my dad's Afro Caribbean, so

597
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: she didn't really know how to do the curly hair

598
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: and so she would be struggling pulling our hair. Now

599
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: when I do my daughter's hair, I just have these

600
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: you know again, I had to go back in my

601
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 2: memory lane. I'm very slow with doing your hair. I'm

602
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: very careful. I don't want her to feel that rush

603
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: like Tomi. Hair should be pleasurable. It should be like

604
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: a relaxing, wind down technique, and so I'm very careful

605
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: about not passing on a lot of those busy type

606
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: of cultures to her so that she can access joy

607
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: through many ways in life.

608
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so I misspoke. Values was number three. Now we

609
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: are moving on into number four.

610
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: Oh. Vitals, yes, vitals, yeah, vitals. When my daughter turned too,

611
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: I started telling her every night we had this routine,

612
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: this bathroom routine, how many bodies did God give you?

613
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: And she'd say one, mommy, And I'd say, what do

614
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: you have to do with that? Take care of it?

615
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: And it's something that she knows to this day. Right,

616
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: you only get one body and brain, and so it's

617
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: really up to us to take care of it. So

618
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: taking care of your vitals looks like, you know, getting

619
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: good movement, and that doesn't have to be like a

620
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: workout regimen. It could be, Okay, instead of working through

621
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: meetings all day, I'm going to get up and I'm

622
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: going to go for a walk around the block or

623
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: a walk down the hall to get water, getting any

624
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: amount of movement. And if you're not into exercising, you

625
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: could be dancing to your favorite song every day. But

626
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: that's really important taking care of vitals looks like eating

627
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: foods that are not highly processed, and there's a whole

628
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: field called nutritional psychiatry where you eat foods that are

629
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,239
Speaker 2: good for your brain that decrease inflammation, and this is

630
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 2: actually very helpful in letting your brain release those happy chemicals.

631
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 2: Taking care of vitals looks like getting good deep sleep

632
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: without being on your devices at night, so you get

633
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: that rich ram sleep. And also a part of the

634
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: non traditional vitals that I put in my book have

635
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: to do with technology.

636
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: Now.

637
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: I was on your show last year talking about the

638
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: reset method and about all of the ways that technology

639
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: can be harmful for our brains. So knowing ways that

640
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: technology may be impairing your happiness and putting limits on that,

641
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: and then you know, taking care of vitals. A part

642
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: of that is making sure you're nurturing your healthy relationships,

643
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: because there's a whole body of research coming out of

644
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: Harvard now showing that the quality of your relationships is

645
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: a huge predictor of your longevity. So you can help

646
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: all the kill that you want. If you're partnered with

647
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: someone toxic, you know you're not going to be healthy, right,

648
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: So those are all important ways to take care of

649
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: your body and bring because you only get one. And

650
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: the final V is vision. How do you plan joy

651
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 2: in the future so you don't get stuck in the past.

652
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: And this is include celebrating your wins, so you know,

653
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: rather than saying, Okay, I'm supposed to do this, say

654
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 2: I did. Right. It's like a slight shift. But let's

655
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: say you get your kid to school on time like

656
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 2: I do every day. I'm going to sit in my

657
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: living room and I'm going to have some coffee and

658
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: just say I did that before rushing off to work.

659
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: And I've grown to like really look forward to that

660
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: moment where I get to sit and rest and relax

661
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: and enjoy the fact that I did this thing.

662
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: Are there any myths about high functioning depression that you

663
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: feel like we have not discussed that you feel like

664
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: it would be really important to debunk for the community.

665
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: Yes. When you think of high functioning depression, you often

666
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: think of someone who looks depressed, right, so like people think, oh,

667
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: this is just someone who looks depressed who is actually busy. No,

668
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: you know, I talk about Chesley christ who was a

669
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:06,479
Speaker 2: Miss USA, beautiful, always smiling, bubbly, but ended up dying

670
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: by suicide. And her mother, April Simpkins, is a good

671
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: friend of mine and she actually endorsed my book and

672
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: she said Chesley had anadonia, but no one knew it, right.

673
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: I want people to know that you can be beautiful

674
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: and bubbly and smiling and the life of the party

675
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: and still struggle with high function and depression. It's not

676
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: just someone who's like high powered and has a grimace

677
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: on their face and getting things done. It's the friend

678
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: that you know makes you laugh. It's the family member

679
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: that is always there when you need them. It's an

680
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: entrepreneur who's taking care of all of their employees but

681
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: not taking care of themselves. It's that student who's getting

682
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: straight a's but who's actually struggling.

683
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: It may be a little early, given that you are

684
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: kind of on the cutting edge of a lot of

685
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: this research, but is there any like genealogy connection, Like

686
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: are we looking at like, oh, is this something that

687
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: has like a genetic component that maybe your mommy, your grandma,

688
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: they're all socialuggle with high functioning depression and you didn't

689
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: know it.

690
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: I didn't do any genetics testing in my study, but

691
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: I've done studies where genetics were involved, and we're trying

692
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: to pinpoint whether or not there are different types of depression.

693
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: I know that I believe it's Stanford that just came

694
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: out earlier this year with a study looking at the

695
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: different types of depression based on genetics and imaging, and

696
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: that article is interesting. They didn't talk about high functioning depression,

697
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: probably because there was no other study besides mine, but

698
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: they did talk about different types of depression, and so

699
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: I think people are starting to realize that a lot

700
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: of mental health conditions have different subtypes. There's a recent

701
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: article I can't remember which university published this, but there

702
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: were like different subtypes of autism, right. So a huge

703
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: part of medicine that is missing is what's called precision medicine, right,

704
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: or precision psychiatry, trying to figure out what type of subtypes,

705
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: what phenotypes there are. And in my writeup, when you

706
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 2: start the NIH website and you look for my paper,

707
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: you'll see that we put we're looking at a different phenotype, right,

708
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: We're trying to see the not so typical face that

709
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: people associate with depression. We're trying to see if there

710
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: are categories that are often overlooked. It's important to do

711
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,479
Speaker 2: this work because we know that if we wait until

712
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 2: people break down, we're too late. Why wait, we should

713
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 2: just show people the signs so they can actually start

714
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: taking the steps to reclaiming their joy before they break down.

715
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Judith, what does it look like for us to

716
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: continue these conversations, especially in the community of black women right, like,

717
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: so that we aren't shaming people for what they're experiencing,

718
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: whether we are decreasing some of the stigma related to

719
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: high functioning depression.

720
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think talking about things openly definitely helps, and

721
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: sharing stories. I was recently at Essence Fest and I

722
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: had my book. I had a fireside chat with one

723
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 2: of the editors, Minique Flicker, and she actually said during

724
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: the talk, I think I may have struggled with this.

725
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: And it's like having those conversations out loud in a

726
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: room full of people and being able to say that

727
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: and then have people in the audience shaking their heads

728
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: and agreeing. I think that's huge because it like, not

729
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: long ago, people weren't saying that, they weren't acknowledging it.

730
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: They were saying, oh, that was someone else. And I

731
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 2: think there's still a lot of work to be done.

732
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: Usually when you go to especially like high powered events

733
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: or workplaces, people feel more comfortable using terms like burnout

734
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: and oh I'm burnt out too, Oh yeah, me three.

735
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: But if you say I'm depressed, people are like, oh,

736
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: there's not like a so am I or me three?

737
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: It's like we should do something about that. Right, So,

738
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: I do think that the word burnout is actually overused.

739
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: I think people are actually a lot of people are

740
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: actually depressed, but they are too afraid to say it,

741
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: and burnout seems more culturally acceptable. But we have to

742
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: remember that the term burnout was even in our medical

743
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: literature until like thirty years ago. Right, It's a relatively

744
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: new phenomenon. And the difference between burnout and high functioning

745
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: depression is that burnout is a workplace condition. I have

746
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: this brain model here that I often use. So when

747
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: you think about the brain, the brain in the workplace

748
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: experiences a lot of symptoms in burnout because the pressures

749
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: of the workplace are causing the burnout. But when you

750
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 2: remove that brain from the workplace and that brain gets

751
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: rest and is away from the stressors, that burnout gets better. Right,

752
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: high function depression in the workplace you have all the

753
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: same pressures of the workplace. You sell the symptoms, you

754
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 2: remove that brain. What happens. They don't get better, They're

755
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 2: finding other work to do. They can't sit still, they

756
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: can't relax. When they're not busy, they're empty. When they're

757
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: not doing work, they feel restless. So that's a difference.

758
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: Burnout is caused by the actual environment. High function depression

759
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: is something internal. There's something inside that's not resolved. So

760
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: even if you take them out of the environment, they

761
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: can't relax. And so I think a lot of education

762
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: needs to be done about that, and that's why people

763
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 2: are taking all these burnout courses and they're still not

764
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 2: feeling better. I think a lot of people have individualized

765
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 2: pain that they're not acknowledging, and it's being mislabeled.

766
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: How would you say the pandemic kind of interacted with

767
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: high functioning depression. What are your guesses around whether that

768
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: led to maybe more high functioning depression or what.

769
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll bring my brain out again with the pandemic.

770
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: Like if you think about trauma as an ocean, we

771
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 2: got hit with this uncertainty. Okay, then before we could recover,

772
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: ro'll told oh, actually you can go back, We're safe, okay,

773
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: but then we're like, oh, sorry, there's another variant. You

774
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: have to hide again, So another wave. Oh and then

775
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: there's Black Lives Matter and George Floyd. Here we go.

776
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: We hit again with another trauma, and then the capital

777
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: hit with another trauma. This environmental disasters hit again, wars

778
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: abroad hit again, seeing people dying in terrible ways. We

779
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: just don't get. We haven't had a moment to recover.

780
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: Our brains have just been hit by so much and

781
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like there was a break. This is

782
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 2: a consensus that I've seen around everywhere. It's like what's next?

783
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: And over time, if you get trauma wave after trauma wave,

784
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: if trauma wave and you're just not able to literally

785
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: catch your breath, you start getting numb. You start to

786
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: see things online and you're like, you don't even feel

787
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: anything anymore. When you see disasters, it's like, eh, So,

788
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 2: anedonia is tied to trauma as well, and that's why

789
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: it's important for us to have these terms to understand

790
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: what's happening to our brains so we can protect our brains. Right,

791
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: if you know that your brain is being traumatized over

792
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: and over again, by images you're gonna learn. Okay, maybe

793
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: I need to take a break. I need to turn

794
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: off my phone. Not to say that you shouldn't be

795
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: pluged into what's happening or informed, but you don't have

796
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 2: to be informed twenty four seven. You know you're worthy

797
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 2: of rest, you're worthy of self care. So what would

798
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: you do INSTEADY limit your phone use, go out in

799
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: the world, touch some grass, interact with people. When you

800
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: hold a loved one's hand, when you hug a loved one,

801
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: when you kiss a loved one, oxytocin is released. It's

802
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 2: the love attachment hormone. You're not getting that when you're

803
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: just like texting them. You want to be able to

804
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: get out in the world and experience points of joy

805
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: because it's literally healing. And when I say points of joy,

806
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: I use that term very intentionally because in the research,

807
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: the way that we measure happiness is by adding up

808
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: points literally on these rating scales. But in the real

809
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: world and therapy world, when patients come in, they're like, oh,

810
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: doctor dud, I just want to be happy. They don't

811
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: think in terms of points. They're thinking when I ask them,

812
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: what is happiness for you? Well, happiness is when I

813
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: get like this dream partner, or happiness is when I

814
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 2: get a big job or pay off my debt. Right,

815
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: they're thinking about these events, But happiness is just that

816
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 2: it's a situation that depends on the externals. So when

817
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: something happens externally, then you get happy. Right. Joy is

818
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: very different. Joy happens when you experience these sensations that

819
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: literally are responsible for making your brain feel experience happiness.

820
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: So that's joy looks like when you eat your food,

821
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: you're tasting it, you're savoring it. It's yummy. Right when

822
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 2: you decide to take a nap, you wake up and

823
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: you feel refreshed. When you are lonely and you reach

824
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 2: out to a loved one, you feel seen and heard

825
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: and connected. When you're stressed, you're able to self soothe.

826
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: Stress is actually measured in the happiness research. People don't

827
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: even realize that it's really hard to access joy when

828
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 2: you're very, very stressed. So you know, the joy are

829
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: all these experiences that we're literally leaving on the tape

830
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: and sometimes because we're on our phones all the time. Right,

831
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: So try this, when you're eating your food, put your

832
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: phone away, put it in like the next room, and

833
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: literally just eat your food and peace and taste it

834
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: and savor it. When you're talking to your loved one

835
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: or playing with your pet, put the phone the other room,

836
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: and just be really present. Right. All of these experiences

837
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: literally release the points of joy that we add up

838
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: to see if someone's becoming happy, versus people who say, well,

839
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 2: when X happens, I will be happy. Because that delayed

840
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: happiness model doesn't work. Even when you get those things

841
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 2: that you're holding your breath for, you're still not happy.

842
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: So try and experience the points of joy in the

843
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: every day, because that's how you actually measure whether or

844
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: not you're becoming happier.

845
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that, doctor Judith. I know

846
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: so many people will resonate with everything that you have

847
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: shared here today. I know lots of conversations will happen.

848
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: Please let us know where can we stay connected with

849
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: you and grab our own copy of High Functioning.

850
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's so great

851
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 2: to see you at all these events. You can follow

852
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: me at at doctor Judith Joseph, and you can buy

853
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: my book wherever books are sold, High Functioning Perfect.

854
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, doctor Judith. We'll make sure to

855
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: include all that in.

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Speaker 2: Our show notes. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Joseph was able to join us

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00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: again for today's conversation. To learn more about her and

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00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: her work, be sure to visit the show notes at

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00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four fifty six,

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00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text this episode to two of

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00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 1: your girls right now and tell them to check it out.

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00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail

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Speaker 1: with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you

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Speaker 1: have ideas about topics you'd like us to discuss, drop

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Speaker 1: us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

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00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

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00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

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00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't

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00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black

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Speaker 1: Girls and come on over and join us in our

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Speaker 1: Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and

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Speaker 1: much more. We can't wait to see you inside. You

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Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.

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00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Alas Ellis Indai Tubu and

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00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank

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00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I

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00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

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Speaker 1: Take good care,