WEBVTT - Why Healthcare Workers Refuse the Vaccine 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:07.120 Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day three d 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:12.520 and five since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. Today's 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.599 main story healthcare workers are among the first prioritized to 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:22.440 receive a vaccine, but some are refusing to get inoculated. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.880 We look at why vaccine reluctance extends even to those 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:33.280 in the medical profession. But first, here's what happened in 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:47.960 virus news today. The US will require proof of a 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.280 negative COVID nineteen test before allowing visitors to fly into 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.080 the country from other nations. That's in an effort to 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.920 help airlines regain at least some of their most lucrative 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.959 international travel. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.120 Tuesday said it approved the new anti pandemic measure that 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:14.399 will take effect on January. It requires travelers to receive 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.760 a test within three days before leaving for the US 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:24.160 and provide written documentation of a negative result. Japan extended 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.280 its state of emergency beyond the Tokyo region, encompassing an 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.720 area that accounts for more than half of its economy. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.920 It's one of several countries where the virus has made 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:39.520 a comeback in winter months. Tokyo cases hit a record 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:44.600 last Thursday. The situation has revived questions about whether it's 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.560 safe to hold even a limited version of the postponed 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:56.160 Olympics in less than two hundred days. Finally, Sweden is 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.320 tightening the screws after taking arguably the world's off this 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.320 approach to handling the coronavirus pandemic. Under a new law 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.880 that runs through September, the government can now find or 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:15.160 close businesses that fail to follow restrictions like visitor caps. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.639 It's a departure from relying mainly on recommendations and trusting 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.959 people to follow them. With the health care system under 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:28.160 increasing to rest and death surging, some say it was 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:38.920 too little, too late, and now for today's main story, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.480 most states have prioritized healthcare workers in their vaccination programs, 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:49.119 but across the country, vaccine providers are finding that some 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:54.160 of those workers don't want the shot. Nurses and firefighters 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.760 are among those questioning it's safety after approval in record time. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:04.000 I spoke with reporter ALICEI. Young, who reports that reluctance 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.960 to get the shot that could end the pandemic goes 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:12.720 well beyond anti vax activists who's about unproven theories on 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:22.320 social media. The reluctance of some healthcare workers to receive 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.480 a COVID nineteen vaccine may be surprising too many listeners. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.560 What have been some of the reasons that they've given 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:34.240 as to why they're unwilling to take it. Some medical 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:40.800 professionals are saying that they support vaccines, They support measles 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.840 vaccines and uh the annual flu shot, but they say 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:50.200 that they're leery of the science behind this one because 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:55.320 the COVID nineteen vaccinations were developed in such a short 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.840 amount of time. It can take about a decade or 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.680 more for a typical vaccine to go from research to market. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:06.520 They're also afraid that it hasn't been tested long term. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.520 They're worried about if they have pre existing conditions or 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.520 if they have um an immune disorder that causes their 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.320 immune system to just blow up. Now, I'd like to 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.120 dig into some of these things that you've just mentioned 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.200 in terms of the development of these vaccines and even 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:29.320 perhaps some of the technology that these vaccines utilize, because 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.680 it seems that some have cited the technology behind the 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.920 MODERNA vaccine and the Fiser vaccine the m RNA technology 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.240 as some of the causes of their suspicions. I mean, what, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:47.440 what's the rationale there? Well, in a typical vaccine, what 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.160 you're using is a dead piece of the virus or 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:56.080 a very small amount of active virus. With the m RNA, 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.560 it actually goes into the body and causes a change, 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.080 a brief change. And folks who object to that say, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:09.599 this technology is just two untested and once you put 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.520 this thing in your body, there's no knowing what it 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.680 can do. And they believe this, you know, with reason 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.080 or without reason, it's what they believe. You know, these 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:23.960 vaccines were developed at a remarkably fast pace, um the 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:29.080 fastest ever really, but you know, given that Fiser and 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.719 Moderna and and certainly other companies working on vaccines have 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:38.640 attempted to provide some sort of guarantees or safeguards that 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.159 might help ensure that consumers feel that these vaccines are safe. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.520 And so I was wondering if you might unpack what 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.440 types of either testing was conducted before the vaccines were approved, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.120 or some of the other methods that these companies took 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:59.800 to try and alleviate these fears. There's a lot of misinformation. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.720 They're about the vaccines. One person we interviewed said, well, 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.960 it was never tested on mice, and vaccines are tested 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.520 on mice for a reason. In fact, the pharmaceuticals tested 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.280 the components not only on mice, but also monkeys and 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:24.120 more than seventy five thousand human beings. And when we're 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.279 talking about the medical professionals, as you say, who are 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.479 unwilling or have expressed a reluctance to take this vaccine, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.240 I mean, what specifically group of folks are we talking 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.159 about here. Are we talking about nurses, physicians, or are 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.039 we talking about kind of a broader definition of medical professionals. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:49.560 I have a sprinkling of physicians who uh, myself and 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.440 my colleagues spoke to UM and they say, one said, 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.719 there's no need for the vaccine at all, that there 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.599 are over the counter drugs that they've been happy with 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:05.159 to treat the virus when it does pop up. One 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.520 operator of a nursing home Pruitt Health, which is one 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:15.960 of the nation's largest family operated nursing home Change, told 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.880 me that it's it's a lot of medical assistance, the 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:25.000 certified UH nursing assistance, who are saying, now, uh, these 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.000 folks tend to not be college educated, they're working for 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:35.160 low pay, long hours. Some have said they are African American, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:41.040 and they are skeptical of what this drug contains. UM. 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:46.240 They point to the test keg Uh syphilis experiment UM 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.760 as a reason for their mistrust. Now, is there any 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.320 kind of data available in terms of, say, the percentage 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:01.320 or proportion of medical professionals or healthcare workers who aren't 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:06.920 willing to be vaccinated. I haven't found any reliable data 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:11.760 that show how many medical professionals want nothing to do 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.480 with this, And I think that's for a couple of reasons. Um, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:20.440 we're so busy surveying the general population. Number one and 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.880 sixty of the general population says that they wanted Among 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:31.240 the professionals who are saying no, Also, they don't want 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.560 their names necessarily linked to this in print or anywhere else, 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.120 for fear of UM being made an example of, or 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:44.839 maybe for fear of losing their jobs. Now in the 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.600 vaccine rollout, UM, certainly there have been these attempts, as 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:53.800 we've already discussed, to you know, showcase the solid science 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.920 behind the vaccines, the safety behind the vaccines. But in 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.360 terms of perhaps encouraging these healthcare professionals or medical professionals 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:07.360 to receive the vaccine. Are there any types of incentives 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.200 that organizations, or even say the CDC has done to 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:17.840 try and encourage this particular group to receive the vaccine? Remember, 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.640 the federal government left vaccinations to the states to sort out, 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.720 and now states are kind of wringing their hands pulling 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.480 out their hair with this effort, although most of them 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:34.120 say that they're starting to get it under control. The 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.880 federal government has suggested for employees, say of a nursing home, 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.440 who are saying no thank you, to hold a pizza 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:48.280 party or offer some kind of raffle incentive to get 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.920 folks more interested in this, which is to me, is 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.280 kind of an interesting approach when you're talking about something serious, 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.800 something so serious, to say, hey, maybe a pizza party 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.440 will help. On that note, on more of the say 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.640 risk issue, Can a medical professional be fired for refusing 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.680 to be vaccinated? Yes, a medical professional can be fired, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.280 But there's a couple of components to this. Workers can 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.280 cite a disability or a religious belief, and that brings 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.520 us into the reasonable accommodation territory. So in this case 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.480 you would have to say I object to this because 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.680 I have a disability and it's going to be made worse. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.000 So then your employer needs to turn around and said, okay, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.160 well can you work from home or can you mask 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:42.200 constantly and take other steps? And this is where it 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:47.880 can get harry in court in the US Eighth Circuit 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.080 Court of Appeals took the case of an employee. She 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.600 was a medical employ who said no to a rebella 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:59.040 vaccine that was required by her employer. She was dismissed. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.040 She said that she had allergies and sensitivities and was 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.080 afraid of a reaction. So the court took a look 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.760 at this and determined that what she had was quote 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.960 garden variety allergies and basically they told her get lost. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.960 So that was a health her firing as a health 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.520 I mean, do you think that going forward, you know, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:25.200 as vaccine roll out continues and ramps up, is there 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.839 more that can be done to shore up confidence either 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.560 amongst these healthcare professionals or even amongst the general population 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:38.040 that these vaccines are indeed safe. I don't know about 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:43.000 medical professionals, although some have said they're just taking a 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:48.000 weight and see attitude that they're not necessarily constitutionally against 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.079 the COVID nineteen vaccine. They say that they don't want 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.160 to be the guinea pigs, So the wait a couple 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.720 of weeks or a couple of months, um see if 0:11:55.720 --> 0:12:00.360 there's any widespread reported problems so far as your basic 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.720 folks who don't want anything to do with it. It 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:09.520 was suggested to me by an immunization professional yesterday that 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:15.080 it can't be overstated how important that your local pastors 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.240 or even your local sports heroes, maybe not like your 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:24.679 NFL guy or your NBA guy or your women's soccer professional, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.440 but people in the community whom people look up to 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.280 for them to get out and say, look, I took 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:41.360 it and I'm okay, and you should too. That was 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.240 a lease, young, And that's it for our show today. 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.480 For coverage of the outbreak from one bureaus around the world, 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:52.520 visit Bloomberg dot com slash coronavirus and if you like 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.800 the show, please leave us a review and a rating 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.400 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:03.160 help more listeners find our global reporting. The Prognosis Daily 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.720 edition is produced by top for foreheads Magnus Hendrickson and 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.520 me Laura Carlson. Today's main story was reported by Elise Young. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.120 Original music by Leo sidrin. Our editors are Rick Shine 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.840 and Francesca Levi. Francesco Levi is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:22.240 Thanks for listening.