WEBVTT - Part Two: TB Joshua: The Evangelical Pastor Who Built His Own Hell

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about illness

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<v Speaker 2>by the sickest man in podcasting, Robert evans Uh. We're

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<v Speaker 2>recording this about a week after our TV Joshua Part

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<v Speaker 2>one episodes with the Great Miles Gray. Miles take an

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<v Speaker 2>audio bow. Wow, what a bow, beautiful microphone. I'm technically better,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess. I have this fun thing that happens with

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<v Speaker 2>sinus infections where my nose is mostly better, but now

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<v Speaker 2>my jaw hurts like hell. It's like a I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's partly related to coughing, but it happens when you're

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<v Speaker 2>when your sinuses get completely fucked. So I'm feeling great.

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<v Speaker 2>Miles how Yeah, yeah, I'm always putting silver in various parts.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you watch sorry, did you watch that documentary?

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<v Speaker 3>Miles?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Any any time?

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<v Speaker 4>He was a crip.

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<v Speaker 2>My favorite thing is people taking quack medicine that turns

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<v Speaker 2>them different colors. Dude, that's it's so good. Every time

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<v Speaker 2>it's funny.

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<v Speaker 3>I it's like it's fucked up. But like I was

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<v Speaker 3>taking so many screenshots when I was watching that that

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<v Speaker 3>I use as memes among my friends, like just this

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<v Speaker 3>one where the guy was playing guitar. She was in

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<v Speaker 3>the bed. Yeah, I said, just like the energy of

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<v Speaker 3>playing guitar for a corpse like that.

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<v Speaker 2>You're like, oh, this is what's the BES needs.

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<v Speaker 1>I quite literally forced Jamie to watch that all the

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<v Speaker 1>way through. In the middle of the night. I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, I can't be awake tomorrow and you

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<v Speaker 1>have not watched this for me to talk to you

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<v Speaker 1>about this shit.

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<v Speaker 3>It was mean mile when they were wheeling her through

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<v Speaker 3>that the whole thing was out of whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, it was great because it led me after I

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<v Speaker 2>was watching it with friends and afterwards we were very

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<v Speaker 2>much like, well, I still want more cult content, and

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<v Speaker 2>we we found fucking I think it was Netflix. We

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<v Speaker 2>were on I forget whatever thing we were on. The

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<v Speaker 2>algorithm was like this. It was here's a show about

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<v Speaker 2>like this commune that might be a cult or might not.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like a mystery show and I put it on.

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<v Speaker 2>In the first episode feels kind of like a documentary.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a couple of weird moments and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on with this? And then the second episode

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<v Speaker 2>it's it immediately transitions to being a reality show fully,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, they tricked us. They tricked us

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<v Speaker 2>in the thinking that we were watching like a documentary

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<v Speaker 2>about this commune that got accused of being a cult,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's just a reality show where people have to

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<v Speaker 2>live on a commune, right, And I was like, you

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<v Speaker 2>tricky bitches. This is this country, this fucking country. Horrible

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<v Speaker 2>speaking of this country. You know it's not this country, Miles.

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<v Speaker 2>Where Nigeria? Yes, yeah, you know. I'm not an expert

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<v Speaker 2>on Nigeria. The of my research suggests different country than

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<v Speaker 2>than we live. And to be honest, thank you, I

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<v Speaker 2>thought it was good.

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<v Speaker 4>It connected with the main thought.

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<v Speaker 2>Which was it's not this country. Yeah, it's not this country,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is where TB. Joshua lived. And most great

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<v Speaker 2>cult leaders, Miles have a title or an alternate name

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<v Speaker 2>they prefer to be known by. I'm not gonna say

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<v Speaker 2>every cult leader, but a lot of them do, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Al Ron Hubbard was the Commodore because he loved navies

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<v Speaker 2>and making people pretend to be in his navy. Keith

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<v Speaker 2>Rniery was known as Vanguard to his followers. I had

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<v Speaker 2>a beance joke in here, but I really like, why

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<v Speaker 2>would I that? I don't need I don't need that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of game. We're gonna bleep it out anyway, like

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<v Speaker 2>they did in that Donald Glover's show, Sophie. So it's fine, right. So,

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<v Speaker 2>in keeping with the fact that he was a general

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<v Speaker 2>creep and monster TV, Joshua had the most unsettling cult

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<v Speaker 2>leader nickname imaginable Daddy. That's just mm, that's the good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Not like their father sometimes too, but like Daddy specifically

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<v Speaker 2>is what most of his followers refer to a mass,

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<v Speaker 2>which is just an extra level I don't know why

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<v Speaker 2>it's worse than Father. I guess it's not. Maybe it's

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<v Speaker 2>just like exposure because of the Catholic Church. We're all

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<v Speaker 2>used to religious figures being father, like.

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<v Speaker 3>Daddy is creepy, right, No, Daddy is because it's like

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<v Speaker 3>it's juvenile, but also there's it's sexually charged in different.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, And I mean, and it is in

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<v Speaker 2>this context because like the people who he was most

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<v Speaker 2>insistent call him Daddy were the young female followers that

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<v Speaker 2>he was fucking right.

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<v Speaker 4>Why did first?

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<v Speaker 3>Second, I forgot I was on behind the Bastards, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, oh, I finally said, chill, We're just

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<v Speaker 3>like we're just gonna talk about Mother God. And then

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, oh, that's right, we're talking about TV. Fucking

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<v Speaker 3>Joshua again. We wait, I thought I was watching a

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<v Speaker 3>Netflix documentary about a cult and now I'm on a

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<v Speaker 3>fucking reality show.

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<v Speaker 2>That's such a fun cult documentary because like it's I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a story about a woman destroying herself and like dying,

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<v Speaker 2>but she's also the cult leader. And it's like interesting

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<v Speaker 2>because it's a cult leader where the primary victim was

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<v Speaker 2>the cult leader. Yeah, like the cult leader was the

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<v Speaker 2>victim of the cult in a way that's really fun. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to this, which is just horrible. But you

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<v Speaker 2>know this is Yeah, we're not going to give you

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<v Speaker 2>the fun story. You're not going to hear about Mother God. Here,

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<v Speaker 2>go watch HBO if you want.

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<v Speaker 3>Is there coidal silver at the very least in this one?

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<v Speaker 2>There there is quack remedies. But those quack remedies are

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<v Speaker 2>just praying until your cancer eats you alive. Okay, all right, yep,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm still in stuff. Yeah, I'm still in Yeah. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you're contractually obligated to be. We have we have ironclad

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<v Speaker 2>tracks with our kids. Hey, don't don't reveal the process here.

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<v Speaker 4>I know I'm locked in.

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<v Speaker 2>We're represented by one of those Epstein lawyers, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's just anyway. Speaking of abusive relationships, let's talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the tale of one of TV Joshua's followers. Ray Ray

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<v Speaker 2>is an english woman. She Brighton, England, where she went

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<v Speaker 2>to university for Nigeria. In the winter of two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and two, she traveled there with a friend to see TB. Joshua. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>both Ray and her friend were strict Christians who had

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<v Speaker 2>seen videos of TV Joshua's miracles, passed around in tapes,

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<v Speaker 2>and heard stories from other evangelicals who'd gone to his church.

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<v Speaker 2>Right again, as you noted, it's very much like I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know the way that like, you know, back in

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<v Speaker 2>the early odd's, late nineties, like punk bands, you'd get

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<v Speaker 2>like some burnt like you get like a tape or

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<v Speaker 2>something from a friend of yours. Right, it's like a

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<v Speaker 2>live session from this band no one else has ever

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<v Speaker 2>heard of. And yeah, that's how that shit spread. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the same way with this And in Ray's accounting, she

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<v Speaker 2>watched these videos for the first time with her church

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<v Speaker 2>congregation when she was sixteen, so a couple of years

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<v Speaker 2>before she went over there, and quote the whole room

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<v Speaker 2>went completely still when they first watched TV Joshua cure people. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>it's one thing to say these people were convinced that

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<v Speaker 2>TV Joshua could work miracles and wanted to see that

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<v Speaker 2>for themselves, but that doesn't get at the essential horror

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<v Speaker 2>of what was going on here. Ray, Like a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of TV Joshua's foreign volunteers was homosexual, and because of

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<v Speaker 2>the religious environment she was raised in and the time again,

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<v Speaker 2>you got to remember, this is the early two thousands,

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<v Speaker 2>were in a very different period for a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff. She believed that this was immoral and she

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to pray the gay away, right, Like that was her, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>she recognized this about her. She's raised in this culture

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<v Speaker 2>and she wants to be cured of this, and whatever

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<v Speaker 2>she's doing at home is not getting rid of this

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<v Speaker 2>thing that is part of her, right right. And she

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<v Speaker 2>sees these videos of this supernaturally powerful preacher in Nigeria

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<v Speaker 2>and is like, maybe he can do it, right, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>seeing you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he's like fixing this guy's like leg or whatever

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<v Speaker 3>we saw last time. Yeah, yeah, And obviously that doesn't work,

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<v Speaker 3>but you can see why she would get hope for

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<v Speaker 3>this for the first time. Right as a result of

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<v Speaker 3>like watching these videos, Ray Letter told him it later

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<v Speaker 3>told an I thought, well, maybe this is the answer

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<v Speaker 3>to my problems. Maybe this man can straighten me out,

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<v Speaker 3>Like if he prays for me, I won't be gay anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>And so after she and her friend went and visited

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<v Speaker 3>Scone for a week, her friend goes back to the UK,

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<v Speaker 3>but Ray elects to stay to like drop out of school,

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<v Speaker 3>to basically leave her family and to join his church.

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<v Speaker 3>She recalls thinking this is what Jesus would have done.

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<v Speaker 3>An article published based on a BBC Africa I report

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<v Speaker 3>states neither Ray nor many of the young people who

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<v Speaker 3>left their home countries to meet Joshua in the early

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<v Speaker 3>two thousands paid.

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<v Speaker 2>For their tickets. Church groups across England raised funds to

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<v Speaker 2>send pilgrims to Lagos to witness these miracles, and Joshua

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<v Speaker 2>contributed scone money himself. Senior former church insiders say later,

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<v Speaker 2>once the church was well established, he charged high prices

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<v Speaker 2>for pilgrims to come and stay. So it's really like

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<v Speaker 2>a bait and switch type thing, right, Like we'll put

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<v Speaker 2>money into bringing people over here until we've established demand

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<v Speaker 2>in the industry because there's so many people coming back home. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a good business man, right, evil business man, but

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<v Speaker 2>most goodness susmitter evils.

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<v Speaker 4>So yeah, there's no.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you can't make the line go up unless you

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<v Speaker 3>have truly despicable aliams or are You're just like no,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just good at getting the people here and making

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<v Speaker 3>the money.

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<v Speaker 2>And the line is going up for Scone.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Bisola, a Nigerian woman who spent fourteen years inside these

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<v Speaker 2>Scone compounds, says that courting Westerners was a key tactic. Quote.

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<v Speaker 2>He used white people to market his brand, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>worth noting that miracles were also marketed, as we've said

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<v Speaker 2>to other Africans, and that TB. Joshua was an equal

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity abuser, but the abuse looked different depending on where

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<v Speaker 2>you were coming from. And this brings us to how

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<v Speaker 2>he treated members of the Nigerian LGBTQ community. I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to quote from an article by Open Democracy here. Hans

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<v Speaker 2>Lean Davids, who works with the Inclusive and Affirming Ministries IAM,

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<v Speaker 2>a Pan African network that champions LGBTIQ rights and religious organizations,

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<v Speaker 2>says that Joshua promotes the notion that LGBTQ people are

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<v Speaker 2>bad spirits blocking prosperity. Parents from poor communities bring their

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<v Speaker 2>children that are lgbtiq' identifying to Joshua's services and the

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<v Speaker 2>hope that their bad omen child will be turned into

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<v Speaker 2>something good and they will start to have good luck

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<v Speaker 2>and prosperity, says David's who is a former reverend with

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<v Speaker 2>the Uniting Reformed Church in Southern Africa. And so again

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<v Speaker 2>for kids like Ray, the preacher is that like this

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<v Speaker 2>can fix you. This guy is so much more powerful

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<v Speaker 2>than any of the religious leaders you've seen in your country,

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<v Speaker 2>and he can actually fix you where they can't. And

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<v Speaker 2>when they're talking to like when he's sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>preaching to queer Nigerians, what he's saying is that like

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<v Speaker 2>if you send your kids here for me to fix them,

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<v Speaker 2>the bad luck that your family has incurred because you

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<v Speaker 2>have a gay child in the family will be wiped

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<v Speaker 2>away and your family will start making more money. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like that's literally the pitch. Yeah, And both of those

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<v Speaker 2>things are evil, they're just a bit different, right, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>Which we're just using.

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<v Speaker 4>Different motivators to get people there, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And it showcases that this is someone with a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>keen understanding of both cultures. He understands the Western cultures

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<v Speaker 2>that he's recruiting from, and he understands like his own

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<v Speaker 2>community right and that different approaches are going to work better.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, This gets us to another interesting difference between

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<v Speaker 2>sorry and I think like it's kind of key to

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<v Speaker 2>note that when it comes to how he preached to

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<v Speaker 2>poor Nigerians, to Ghanians, to peoples in West Africa, and

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<v Speaker 2>largely the people he is recruiting from there, not exclusively,

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<v Speaker 2>but a lot of them are very poor. He focuses

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<v Speaker 2>on prosperity, right, and not just in terms of like

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<v Speaker 2>promising that if you come to the church, if you

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<v Speaker 2>send him your kids for him to fix them, your

0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.960
<v Speaker 2>family will be prosperous. But he does this sort of

0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.120
<v Speaker 2>thing that's very common in the US among prosperity gospel churches,

0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.680
<v Speaker 2>where you have to tie a huge chunk of your income.

0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.160
<v Speaker 2>He asks for ten percent from the incomes of all

0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.920
<v Speaker 2>of his church members, and that will ensure that God

0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.559
<v Speaker 2>blesses your finances. So the way this is and again

0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of this is prosperity gospel shit. You get

0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.640
<v Speaker 2>this in the US all the time. You have to

0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.640
<v Speaker 2>give money to the church. But that's how you guarantee

0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 2>God will increase your income, right, Like, that's the only

0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.200
<v Speaker 2>way for you to make more. I'm one of God's

0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.000
<v Speaker 2>official agents, man, So here's a deal. Give me about

0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.000
<v Speaker 2>like ten give me a ten percent kind of your shit.

0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.040
<v Speaker 2>I'll fucking tell God, Yo, make sure you hooked them

0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.320
<v Speaker 2>up this month, and we're good. We're good. So, over

0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.600
<v Speaker 2>the first twenty or so years of operations, gone perfected

0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.480
<v Speaker 2>the practice of reaching out to people in different ways,

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.760
<v Speaker 2>and of course the practice of faking miracles. And this

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.119
<v Speaker 2>is what all of these tactics rely upon, is faking miracles.

0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Witnesses have claimed two press that not only were some

0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.959
<v Speaker 2>miracle recipients actors, as we've already discussed, but it was

0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 2>also common practice to trick actual sick people into playing

0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 2>their part. TV Joshua's agents would comb logos for people

0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.679
<v Speaker 2>with health problems that were easily treated. But like, these

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.480
<v Speaker 2>people couldn't afford to treat those health problems, right, So

0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.280
<v Speaker 2>it's you've got some sort of you know, bacterial sickness

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, a virus even that we can treat, you

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.840
<v Speaker 2>just can't afford to treat it. These people will be

0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.240
<v Speaker 2>brought in and then in the food or water they're

0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.880
<v Speaker 2>being given, they would be drugged and treated against their

0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.320
<v Speaker 2>knowledge and told that what was fixing them was them

0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.959
<v Speaker 2>being prayed over right. They were gaslighting people into believing

0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:10.840
<v Speaker 2>that they had been cured.

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 3>So like someone like has some kind of like maybe

0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.680
<v Speaker 3>like parasitic infection or something like that, and they're like, dude,

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.520
<v Speaker 3>just fucking hit them with the antibiotics and they're fucking yogurt.

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:23.880
<v Speaker 4>And then yeah, wow.

0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Because if you've got you know, because of you know,

0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the water, the lack of good water, and a lot

0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 2>of especially these poor communities. Yeah, there are a lot

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>of people with with parasitical and with that sort of shit,

0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.880
<v Speaker 2>with these certain sorts of like intestinal parasites. Once you

0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 2>get people good medicine, the degree to which people like

0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.240
<v Speaker 2>improve is it will it does feel magical. I fel

0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.200
<v Speaker 2>like you don't know what's being done right right, Like

0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.560
<v Speaker 2>it's such a quick change, and yeah, it's I've never

0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 2>heard of anyone doing that. And it's like, I guess objectively,

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 2>it's better than the other thing he's doing, which is

0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.000
<v Speaker 2>like lying to people about the fact that he can

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.200
<v Speaker 2>cure their cancer because this is an HIV.

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.720
<v Speaker 4>They're like, yo, don't do the meds. Just pray, just pray.

0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.640
<v Speaker 2>This is get I don't know why it disturbs me

0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.320
<v Speaker 2>more because it's objectively not as bad, but it is like,

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.000
<v Speaker 2>weirdly more fucky. I don't know, I don't know.

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:18.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because you're completely you're using the their own distress

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.960
<v Speaker 3>over their their health to then like supercharge your shitty

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 3>belief factory to then be like, yeah, man, I'm gonna

0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.360
<v Speaker 3>take your stress about this, and I'm going to convert

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.280
<v Speaker 3>that into just devotion to what I'm telling you, and yeah,

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.200
<v Speaker 3>staying in line and promoting my message all the while

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 3>when it's like.

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I just gave you fucking a Marxis cylind or whatever.

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, yeah, or literally like I've remect them. I'm

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:43.920
<v Speaker 2>sure that is like what we're giving them a lot

0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.200
<v Speaker 2>of times because it's it's an effective anti parasitic Yeah.

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Also for com Yeah, and also for of course here's

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.560
<v Speaker 2>COVID poidal silver too. Yeah. Yeah, I just you know, myles,

0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 2>I just take silver. When if I start to feel

0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>under the weather, I keep a pile of silver in

0:14:58.040 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 2>my gun safe, and I just eat one of those

0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 2>little silver bars, you know. Yeah, it's like an extended

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>really capsule. But yes, he's eating silver bullets.

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.040
<v Speaker 4>No, I need those for werewolf's minds. Yeah, that's true.

0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry. I didn't mean to spread this information on

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 4>the show.

0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.800
<v Speaker 2>It gets a lot worse somehow. So I mentioned last

0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 2>episode that given Nigeria's problems with HIV, a lot of

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.440
<v Speaker 2>TV Joshua's claimed miracles had to do with curing people

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>of that illness. Here's the thing. It's actually kind of

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.520
<v Speaker 2>hard to convince someone who is dying of AIDS that

0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.120
<v Speaker 2>you have fixed them, right, because they continue to be

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 2>really sick, so they opted to go and obviously, like

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.120
<v Speaker 2>HIV and AIDS are not the same thing. But someone

0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.240
<v Speaker 2>who is untreated HIV it will eventually progress and become

0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.200
<v Speaker 2>clear that they have not become cured, and that that's

0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 2>a potential danger.

0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 2>If people do eventually realize that you were lying to them,

0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>they could you know, speak out about it and cause problems.

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 2>So the much safer thing that the church eventually lands

0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.440
<v Speaker 2>on is bribing doctors to tell congregants they've tested positive

0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.320
<v Speaker 2>for HIV and then curing them having them go get

0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>a real HIV test and an actual clinic and it

0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 2>comes back negative because they were not sick fucking out

0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:18.360
<v Speaker 2>of here, you know, right, that's so fucking evil, Holy shit, Jesus,

0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.560
<v Speaker 2>every this is such a different kind of bastard.

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.280
<v Speaker 3>You know, like the past, we've talked about all kinds

0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.600
<v Speaker 3>of Nazis, child abusers, just general edgett. This guy is

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 3>just completely fucking with people's realities in a way that's

0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.280
<v Speaker 3>a just it's like it's I hate using the word,

0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 3>but it's like genius.

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 2>It is, it's it's.

0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 3>And it's fucking it's fucking with me that like he's like, no,

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 3>this is what you gotta do.

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 4>You get the people who don't have it.

0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.840
<v Speaker 3>It's get them. If pop on a fucking fake test,

0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.360
<v Speaker 3>then you go take the real thing and then guess

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.280
<v Speaker 3>what we fucking won. But it feels like also something

0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 3>like how probably like finance works at higher levels too,

0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.560
<v Speaker 3>you know what I mean of this same thing of like, no,

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 3>just make it look like this and then why I

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 3>think it's key to understand stuff like this because it's

0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 3>so easy, especially when people talk about cults like this

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 3>that are operating in like Nigeria, for folks to have

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.359
<v Speaker 3>the wrong idea that like, well, you know, maybe these

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 3>people are not like are getting tricked or something because

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.439
<v Speaker 3>they lack access to education that people have. And I

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.159
<v Speaker 3>would hope that the degree of misinformation around shit like

0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.240
<v Speaker 3>COVID in the US would disabuse you of that. Like,

0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:25.879
<v Speaker 3>it's not it has very little to do with your

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.159
<v Speaker 3>level of education. In this case, it's even less because

0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 3>you're dealing with people who probably can't afford a lot

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.919
<v Speaker 3>of medical care. And so the church says, as churches

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 3>often do legitimately all throughout the world, we are offering

0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.359
<v Speaker 3>medical tests to see if you have HIV or whatever.

0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.640
<v Speaker 3>People who do not have access to much money go

0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and get the test. It tells them they're sick. They

0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.440
<v Speaker 3>get cured, so they think by you know, they by

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.439
<v Speaker 3>TV Joshua, and then they become dedicated members of the

0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 3>church and give them what little money they have, you know,

0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 3>and like what other options do A lot of these people.

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Half right, you know, like, yeah, that's an insane thing

0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 2>they have to deal with.

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:05.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's what makes it, I guess.

0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's just doubly vile because you're already you're already

0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.440
<v Speaker 3>taking advantage of the inequity that exists within your country.

0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.600
<v Speaker 4>To then be like, yea, let me just exacerbate this

0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:16.160
<v Speaker 4>even more.

0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like one of the most comprehensively evil things

0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:20.879
<v Speaker 2>I've ever heard of someone doing.

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 4>It's it's pretty bad.

0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But you know what isn't comprehensively evil, Miles, It's

0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>just a little evil. Tell me the sponsors of this podcast. Okay, yeah, yeah,

0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:42.440
<v Speaker 2>that's our guarantee. Just a little evil. Ah, We're back.

0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 2>So put up against all of this perfectly managed spectacle,

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.080
<v Speaker 2>confused young people in their teens and twenties, who'd already

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.320
<v Speaker 2>bought into a fundamentally delusional strain of a miracle ridden

0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.200
<v Speaker 2>chunk of the faith had no defense. And I'm speaking

0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.000
<v Speaker 2>about the Westerners here primarily. I want to quote again

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.360
<v Speaker 2>from the BBC discuss in the story of our friend Ray.

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>When Ray landed in the seething heat of Lagos, she

0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.159
<v Speaker 2>saw miracles. Two dozens of people came and testified to

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 2>having been healed of serious illnesses. I had a really

0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.800
<v Speaker 2>involuntary reaction. I just broke down in floods of tears,

0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 2>she said. It was then that Ray was chosen. Joshua

0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.880
<v Speaker 2>singled her out to become a disciple an elite group

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>of followers who served him and lived with him inside

0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.120
<v Speaker 2>his compound. Ray thought she was going to study under

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Joshua to cure her sexuality, to learn how to heal people.

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.200
<v Speaker 2>The reality was very different. We all thought we were

0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 2>in heaven, but we were in hell, she says, and

0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:36.360
<v Speaker 2>in hell, terrible things happen. TB. Joshua sexually abused Ray,

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.199
<v Speaker 2>and not just here, but numerous other disciples. That was

0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.160
<v Speaker 2>largely the point of being at least the female disciples.

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.520
<v Speaker 2>The male disciples got abused too, but I think it

0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>was more like literally just getting physically beaten and tortured

0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>and shit when they didn't, you know, do things because

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.679
<v Speaker 2>he's you know, he's an abusive asshole, right in addition

0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 2>to being just calculated evil. We don't know how many

0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.200
<v Speaker 2>of these women there were, at least dozens. Most most

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of the people who were inside and have gotten out

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.280
<v Speaker 2>suspect that the number of women he sexually abused is

0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.040
<v Speaker 2>in the hundreds. I mean, it could be higher than that. Like,

0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.439
<v Speaker 2>this guy was in power and wealthy for a long

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.440
<v Speaker 2>time and had access to a lot of people. By

0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.760
<v Speaker 2>this point the early aughts, the Synagogue Church of All

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Nations had expanded into a compound of several full city

0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:25.520
<v Speaker 2>blocks wide, with massive towers of apartment buildings, a grand

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 2>stadium capable of hosting tens of thousands of worshippers, school shops,

0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and theaters. It was effectively a city within a city.

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.480
<v Speaker 2>The women chosen by Joshua were isolated, locked away from

0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 2>friends or family and from each other. They were often

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:44.159
<v Speaker 2>kept in total isolation, right, locked in individual cells effectively.

0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Ray claims that she believed firmly she was the only

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.159
<v Speaker 2>disciple in a romantic relationship with TV Joshua, and so

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>great was his control, and I mean that's how she

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.800
<v Speaker 2>described it. I don't think romantic would be the right

0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.399
<v Speaker 2>way to actually describe this, but at the time, that

0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>was how she was looking at it, right. She also

0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.920
<v Speaker 2>claims that his control was so great that he was

0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.160
<v Speaker 2>able to make it impossible for most of the women

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 2>he was abusing to know that other women were being abused. Right.

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.280
<v Speaker 2>This is something you'll hear from a few of his victims,

0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.919
<v Speaker 2>so it seems to be probably pretty consistent. Joshua, like

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 2>most cult leaders, was not a big fan of condoms,

0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:20.720
<v Speaker 2>and as a result, a lot of the women that

0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.679
<v Speaker 2>he slept with wound up pregnant, often repeatedly. Dozens of

0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.879
<v Speaker 2>women have claimed to the BBC that they were forced

0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.639
<v Speaker 2>to have abortions by TB. Joshua, who seems to have

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.200
<v Speaker 2>had no desire himself to father multiple children. He does

0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.760
<v Speaker 2>have some kids, but most of the time he seems

0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.000
<v Speaker 2>to have just ordered these women to get abortions. One

0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.600
<v Speaker 2>of his former victims told an interviewer, if any of

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.080
<v Speaker 2>us got pregnant, he said, you cannot betray the man

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 2>of God. We have to do something about it. I

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 2>never had a choice whether I could keep a potential

0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 2>child or not. I felt like I didn't own my body.

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.800
<v Speaker 2>And for an idea of how prevalent this was, how

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.960
<v Speaker 2>consistent a thing this was for him, TB. Joshua's evangelical

0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Christian compound had a secret on site abortion clinic just

0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:10.879
<v Speaker 2>to service his victims. WHOA, yeah, oh my god, yeah

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:16.040
<v Speaker 2>it see okay, yeah, yeah. He has like an underground

0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.080
<v Speaker 2>abortion clinic in this like little city that he's built

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:21.440
<v Speaker 2>just like for his victims.

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.199
<v Speaker 3>Right, and all the money that he's raking in just

0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.280
<v Speaker 3>goes to creating this like bubbled reality city to do this.

0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Kind of shit in yeah, where he exercises total control.

0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 2>And when I say abortion clinic, don't picture a clean,

0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:40.600
<v Speaker 2>competent plant parenthood facility. TB. Joshua is still an evangelical

0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.639
<v Speaker 2>Pentecostal and believes that abortion is wrong, but he primarily

0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 2>seems to have believed that it was wrong for the

0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.600
<v Speaker 2>women that he was assaulting to get pregnant at all. Right,

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and thus he saw the procedure not just as necessary

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.120
<v Speaker 2>for his own benefit, but as a punishment for them, right.

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 3>Holy shit, Like because they like, how dare you get

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.359
<v Speaker 3>again exactly unprotected sex?

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I am like God's prophet, and there's nothing more

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.120
<v Speaker 2>important than my work, and you're putting it at risk

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 2>with your selfish decision to get preg That seems to

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.879
<v Speaker 2>be from the way they talk about it. That seems

0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.479
<v Speaker 2>to be how he treated this, right, Okay. Jessica Kimu,

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 2>who is one of his African victims. She's from Namibia,

0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.240
<v Speaker 2>says that she was taken by Joshua at age seventeen,

0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.200
<v Speaker 2>raped and locked away to what amounted to a dungeon.

0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:30.719
<v Speaker 2>He kept her there for five years and forced her

0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 2>to have as many abortions over the years. Quote. These

0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.320
<v Speaker 2>were backdoor type medical treatments that we were going through.

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.960
<v Speaker 2>It could have killed us. Another follower went into more detail.

0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.399
<v Speaker 2>You know it, you skip your first period, you skip

0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 2>your second period, and you have to talk in secrecy.

0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:46.679
<v Speaker 2>You'd be taken by one of these elder moms to

0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:50.120
<v Speaker 2>this clinic of his. And he's referring to part of

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the facilitation process that this whole cult runs by is

0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:55.680
<v Speaker 2>he's got some of these elder women who do a

0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of the work of handling the younger women that

0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.679
<v Speaker 2>he's abusing, right, because he's not going to do that himself. Right,

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:04.200
<v Speaker 2>he's got cult leadership to do. You know, he has

0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:05.879
<v Speaker 2>had more important things to handle.

0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he's taking medical diagnoses.

0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right. TB. Joshua had a ferocious temper, probably not surprising,

0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 2>and the man his followers called Daddy was prone to

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:19.879
<v Speaker 2>fly into rages at the drop of a hat. The

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 2>most severe punishment he meted out was forced isolation, because

0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty close to the worst thing you can do

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.040
<v Speaker 2>to somebody, and this was often prescribed for the women

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.280
<v Speaker 2>he had he was abusing. Ray says that she was

0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>locked alone in a room at one point for two

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:36.560
<v Speaker 2>years and was visited only by TB. Joshua for reasons

0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I probably don't need to explain. She attempted suicide several

0:24:40.160 --> 0:24:42.399
<v Speaker 2>times while imprisoned in the compound, but again, that's not

0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:47.480
<v Speaker 2>easy to do because of the degree of control he has. Yeah,

0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:49.360
<v Speaker 2>like I said, this is one of the worst stories

0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I've ever come across, and it sure is.

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:58.159
<v Speaker 3>And like it has it's like any conceivable way to

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:01.200
<v Speaker 3>be a despicable person. He's like, Oh, like I'm engaged

0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:01.680
<v Speaker 3>in that too.

0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:09.920
<v Speaker 3>Imprisonment, trafficking, a sexual assault, sexual violence, yeah, medical gas lighting,

0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 3>like fucking literally anything.

0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like I don't want to say, you know, when

0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.679
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about like really bad cult leaders, it's making

0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:21.760
<v Speaker 2>like a moral distinction, like this one was worse than

0:25:21.800 --> 0:25:25.240
<v Speaker 2>this one. Yeah, I've never been more disturbed by a

0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 2>cult story than this. This is like the most unsettling

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>cult shit I've ever read about. I think.

0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:31.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and someone who's like because a lot of the

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.199
<v Speaker 3>times it's like it's just like an unwell narcissist with

0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 3>like great charisma who's like racist. Yeah, and then this

0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:43.400
<v Speaker 3>guy is so deeply thinking about the myriad of ways

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.359
<v Speaker 3>he can control and abuse people.

0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:48.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's when you're like.

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:51.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like it's a completely different level, or not

0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 3>a different level, but it's just a different level of severity.

0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. More common punishments were meted out to regular

0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.080
<v Speaker 2>followers or the prophets of people that he's not having

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 2>sex with. Right. These would include whipping with chains or horsewhips,

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.359
<v Speaker 2>the use of electrical cables to whip people for punishment,

0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and of course it was also just there was a

0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:12.359
<v Speaker 2>level of average abuse that all of the people who

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 2>lived on scone property were forced to go through. Everyone

0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:17.200
<v Speaker 2>living on this compound is made to wake up early

0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 2>and go to sleep very late. They are often forced

0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:23.880
<v Speaker 2>into physical labor. All of these buildings, which are massive constructions,

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.639
<v Speaker 2>are built by his followers who are living on site

0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:28.399
<v Speaker 2>at least as much as possible. I'm sure they had

0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.359
<v Speaker 2>to pull in contractors for some stuff. But he's and

0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.960
<v Speaker 2>the reason he's doing this, and this is normal cult stuff. Right.

0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:38.399
<v Speaker 2>You keep everyone sleep deprived because that reduces their general

0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:42.640
<v Speaker 2>level of defense. You know, it's a pretty common cult tactic.

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Men were also given roles as his close disciples, and

0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 2>they were used to abuse women and other men. You know,

0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 2>it's a lot of the men who are his enforcers

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:54.479
<v Speaker 2>who are doing these physical punishments, but they were also

0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:58.119
<v Speaker 2>comprehensively abused as well, as this passage from one of

0:26:58.160 --> 0:27:02.399
<v Speaker 2>the BBC's investigations makes clear. Former disciple Giles Hurst thirty

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:04.200
<v Speaker 2>one says at first that he was love bombed, a

0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:06.440
<v Speaker 2>term that can be used to describe when culture group

0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>shower or a g recruit with love and accolades to

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.320
<v Speaker 2>get them to join. But when he became a Disciplehurst

0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.880
<v Speaker 2>said he saw the other side. Competition was fierced among

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:16.440
<v Speaker 2>the two hundred or so disciples for Joshua's attention, and

0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:19.280
<v Speaker 2>they were encouraged to report each other for behaviors deemed wrong.

0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:22.080
<v Speaker 2>He said, Sinser confessed in front of others, recorded an

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.199
<v Speaker 2>archived According to Hurst and other former disciples, passports are

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:28.480
<v Speaker 2>taken along with novels and any medications, including mild painkillers

0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 2>or malaria pills. Permission from Joshua in the form of

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:33.719
<v Speaker 2>assigned pass is needed just to make a phone call

0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 2>or email. Hurst said, so again, that kind of speaks

0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:40.320
<v Speaker 2>to the overall level of control that everyone's under in

0:27:40.480 --> 0:27:42.680
<v Speaker 2>like kind of the central part of the compound where

0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:44.720
<v Speaker 2>he's got his closest followers.

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.680
<v Speaker 3>Is there, how many people like lived in that city.

0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 2>It's really unclear to me, at least hundreds. I think

0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:55.240
<v Speaker 2>it fluctuates over time, in part because the amount of

0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:58.959
<v Speaker 2>facilities available, and like an onion, right, you've got this

0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 2>kind of the area closest to him living around him,

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:04.679
<v Speaker 2>and like the most secure facilities a couple hundred people,

0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:07.200
<v Speaker 2>you've got some less secure facilities where people are under

0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 2>less control, and you have a larger number of them,

0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 2>and you have a much larger number of people who

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:13.960
<v Speaker 2>are coming into the ceremonies, who are probably volunteering their time,

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:16.919
<v Speaker 2>who are certainly tithing money, but they live outside of

0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:19.760
<v Speaker 2>the property, and to them it maybe doesn't feel like

0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:21.439
<v Speaker 2>and maybe it just does kind of feel like a

0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:24.200
<v Speaker 2>normal church that you give money to and you volunteer at.

0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:26.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's certainly the way it feels for the

0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:29.760
<v Speaker 2>majority of people, I think who are contributing to this.

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:33.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, the number of people it's it's it's a cult,

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 2>but it's not recognizable as being in a cult to

0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 2>the majority of people who are aware of TV Joshua

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.240
<v Speaker 2>and think that he's a man of God, right right, right,

0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:43.680
<v Speaker 2>because like, why would you there's no need to have

0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:45.840
<v Speaker 2>tens of thousands of people in that kind of control.

0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:47.640
<v Speaker 2>You don't have that kind of time, you know, like,

0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>why would.

0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:52.400
<v Speaker 4>You any fake COVID tests I can get.

0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Ye, yeah exactly, that's just exhausting. Obviously, this is only

0:28:57.840 --> 0:29:00.600
<v Speaker 2>possible because the Nigerian government was a full patsy to

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:03.200
<v Speaker 2>TV Joshua's activities. The amount of money he brought into

0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 2>the country was seen as worth whatever harm he did.

0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Immigration officials even acted to smooth the passage and long

0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:11.240
<v Speaker 2>term visas of Westerners who came to join his church.

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:14.960
<v Speaker 2>There was effectively an accelerated entry program into the country

0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>just for TV Joshua followers.

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:17.680
<v Speaker 4>Wow.

0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you get like your visa extra fast if

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you're coming in, you know, because they know the officials

0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>in Lagos number one, they're getting paid directly, and they

0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 2>also know these people are bringing money into the country.

0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:29.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, It's like it's not like we're just getting bribed.

0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 3>It's like there is a tangible effect on the economy.

0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:34.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, this is a benefit for like the country.

0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, two ros do make a right exactly exactly,

0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:41.520
<v Speaker 2>that's ours. As a result of this situation, speaking out

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.920
<v Speaker 2>against scone was dangerous, you know, because the authorities are

0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:47.600
<v Speaker 2>on their side. It was not until the BBC Open

0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:51.120
<v Speaker 2>Democracy Joint Report, published in January of twenty twenty four

0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:53.880
<v Speaker 2>as both a series of articles and a documentary that

0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:56.400
<v Speaker 2>any of this information came out. In one of many

0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:58.960
<v Speaker 2>articles on the subject, the BBC notes a number of

0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 2>our witnesses in Nigeria claim they were physically attacked and

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.080
<v Speaker 2>in one case shot at, after previously speaking out against

0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:07.640
<v Speaker 2>the abuse and posting videos containing allegations on YouTube. A

0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 2>BBC crew that attempted to record footage of the church's

0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 2>Lagos compound from a public street in March twenty twenty

0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>two was also fired at by the church's security and

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:17.480
<v Speaker 2>was detained for a number of hours.

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Holy shit, Yeah, the state's involvement is only just in

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:24.600
<v Speaker 3>so far, like it's just because of the bribes that

0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:27.000
<v Speaker 3>they're looking the other way or other people like in

0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:29.640
<v Speaker 3>like you know, Park, I think that's probably more than

0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:32.160
<v Speaker 3>just bribes. I would be surprised if no one was twined.

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:34.400
<v Speaker 3>I would surprise if I'd be surprised if he wasn't

0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:37.480
<v Speaker 3>kicking other benefits to to some people, you know, right right,

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.280
<v Speaker 3>I don't know that we have like a perfect context

0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 3>for precisely how the relationship worked, Yeah, but it's clear

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:44.040
<v Speaker 3>that they were.

0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:47.040
<v Speaker 4>Like, no, we like we like tuberculosis, Joshua.

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, old tuberculosis Joe. So the sheer volume of rapes

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:55.240
<v Speaker 2>and the abortions that came with them, along with the

0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 2>physical and psychological abuse of disciples, created the potential for

0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:02.640
<v Speaker 2>legal consequences. So yeah, TV Joshua, he's got to maintain

0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:06.440
<v Speaker 2>control locally through bribery. But it's also kind of worth

0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.040
<v Speaker 2>noting that since so many of his victims are Westerners,

0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>there is this risk that international condemnation might erupt, right,

0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, because you can't you can't bribe every government.

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>That's some you've got followers on and theoretically they're going

0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:22.840
<v Speaker 2>to get concerned when they realize, like, wow, a lot

0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>of people have left our country and live with this guy,

0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:28.240
<v Speaker 2>and seems like they've been the ones that come back

0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:33.240
<v Speaker 2>to hell. Yeah. And so how he would shield himself

0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:35.760
<v Speaker 2>from this was with the use of charities. Prior to

0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:38.800
<v Speaker 2>his death in twenty twenty one, any article about TV Joshua,

0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:41.800
<v Speaker 2>incredible outlets would note that he was controversial and they

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.400
<v Speaker 2>talk about some of these allegations against him, but then

0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:46.920
<v Speaker 2>they would be like, well, he also puts a lot

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.360
<v Speaker 2>of money into good causes and maybe so maybe he's

0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:51.800
<v Speaker 2>faking miracles. I think based on a lot of the

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 2>articles I read prior to this, I think how you

0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.880
<v Speaker 2>might have interpreted this guy prior to this BBC Open

0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Democracy report is he's faking a lot of miracles and

0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>he's kind of a fraud, but he's he's committing that

0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:05.840
<v Speaker 2>fraud to get money that he then puts into really

0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:09.360
<v Speaker 2>useful charities around the world. So like, it's kind of unethical,

0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:11.479
<v Speaker 2>but the ends are good. Who's this? And I want

0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:13.120
<v Speaker 2>to quit? There's a segment I've got from a Daily

0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Mail article that's a decent example of this. Followers are

0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:18.800
<v Speaker 2>expected to give about ten percent of their paychecks, and

0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.640
<v Speaker 2>the payments are monitored and people are ranked and seated accordingly.

0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:24.760
<v Speaker 2>T shirts, books and frames and photos promoting Joshua are

0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.720
<v Speaker 2>also for sale. However, even former disciples agree that Joshua

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:30.000
<v Speaker 2>himself does give a lot of money to charity and

0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:34.640
<v Speaker 2>in scholarships. Joshua defended his church's resources. Without material and money,

0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be able to carry out so much. Huge, huge,

0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.440
<v Speaker 2>huge people come here for support, Joshua said, So that

0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:42.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of gives you the idea of how this is

0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:45.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of justified, and you know that's bad.

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:49.160
<v Speaker 3>He's like, it's just like, fuck, man, this guy takes

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:55.080
<v Speaker 3>like the learnings from so many predatory companies, industries, states, whatever,

0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:58.280
<v Speaker 3>like the whole thing of like how like BP is

0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 3>like and that's why we're investing in like renewable blah blah.

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, he's doing a chevron here, dude, what are

0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 2>you talking about?

0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:05.920
<v Speaker 3>We're fucking the earth.

0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:06.560
<v Speaker 2>I just told you.

0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:08.720
<v Speaker 3>We just put up like seven fucking min windmills in

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:09.680
<v Speaker 3>fucking Indiana.

0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Man, what the.

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:12.800
<v Speaker 3>Fuck, dude, this isn't Why are you fucking with me?

0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Part of what's frustrating about this guy's early life is

0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:18.320
<v Speaker 2>it's such a black box. I am really curious. How

0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:20.360
<v Speaker 2>much access did this guy have to like the internet.

0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Did he spend a lot of time in libraries? Like

0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>what was his studying? What was the process of Because

0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:29.640
<v Speaker 2>this is the complexity of how he kept this all

0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 2>going speaks to somebody who did read really widely, right,

0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:34.720
<v Speaker 2>it'd be weird if he just came up with all

0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:37.040
<v Speaker 2>of this on his own, rather than being inspired by

0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.960
<v Speaker 2>other abusive organizations doing similar things.

0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:42.640
<v Speaker 3>Right, I mean you know, it's not a lot of

0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:46.040
<v Speaker 3>foreign companies operate in Nigeria, so I'm sure. Yeah, his

0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:50.560
<v Speaker 3>first interaction is seeing how Western companies operate in West Africa. Yeah,

0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.320
<v Speaker 3>and you know, like he probably took a couple lessons

0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:56.120
<v Speaker 3>from Royal Dutch Shell Petroleum and I was like.

0:33:56.120 --> 0:33:58.400
<v Speaker 4>Oh, okay, I see how y'all do? Okay, Yeah, I

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:00.640
<v Speaker 4>might be to use some of that in some of

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:01.040
<v Speaker 4>my shit.

0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:02.680
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's just like I think it's sort of

0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:06.320
<v Speaker 3>like a game, recognized game and like a fucked up

0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:07.920
<v Speaker 3>demonic predatory life.

0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.239
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, oh wow, I'll take a little bit of that.

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:11.239
<v Speaker 4>I'll take a little bit of this.

0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's good stuff. So former Highwranking followers alleged that

0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:18.600
<v Speaker 2>this was part of a concerted plan to protect himself

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:21.200
<v Speaker 2>by making any attack against him look like something that

0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 2>would threaten money that was helping suffering people all around Africa.

0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:28.279
<v Speaker 2>So basically the question they're asking people having people ask

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:30.919
<v Speaker 2>themselves is is going after TV Joshua for a little

0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:33.480
<v Speaker 2>bit of being a con artist worth hurting all of

0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 2>these people? Right? How else are they going to get

0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:39.040
<v Speaker 2>the money? Right now? This didn't always work, and so

0:34:39.160 --> 0:34:41.920
<v Speaker 2>TB Joshua's first line of defense was something he cribbed

0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 2>from a character in his favorite book, The Bible. On

0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:48.439
<v Speaker 2>his compound, he constructed what amounted to his own personal hell,

0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:51.680
<v Speaker 2>a high rise living structure that could fit hundreds of worshippers.

0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:54.480
<v Speaker 2>And again, this is where you've got these like punishment

0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 2>cells where he can lock people for behaving badly. And

0:34:57.200 --> 0:34:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I want to play you with clip from that BBC

0:34:59.080 --> 0:35:03.120
<v Speaker 2>documentary with his hours talking about how these places is run.

0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:07.400
<v Speaker 5>There was a steming day that he used to abuse,

0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:16.000
<v Speaker 5>this woman said. The building of his purpastments, he designed

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:19.520
<v Speaker 5>it God, the whole building was just designed to keep secret,

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:28.040
<v Speaker 5>multiple doors, multiple entries and exits. The tacase you can

0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:30.520
<v Speaker 5>use to get to his five story was like four.

0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:36.120
<v Speaker 5>I call him, Lady properly wants to see you. He

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:39.160
<v Speaker 5>would tell you the specific take is that this person

0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:39.719
<v Speaker 5>should come.

0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>He would always tell you which entrance to take, which

0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:45.640
<v Speaker 2>door to get into.

0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:47.880
<v Speaker 5>He can ask the ladies to come try any of

0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:54.440
<v Speaker 5>the door so people don't see them. You would always

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:58.120
<v Speaker 5>ask you when you come, did anybody see you?

0:35:58.120 --> 0:35:58.920
<v Speaker 2>You bea looser?

0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:01.400
<v Speaker 5>Then you grape me again.

0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:09.560
<v Speaker 2>It was a process, a very nasty cycle we cauldn't

0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:15.280
<v Speaker 2>see it right under our nose. He designed a system

0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:18.480
<v Speaker 2>for deceiving all of us disciples.

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:21.879
<v Speaker 1>A lot of women were being abused by this man.

0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.839
<v Speaker 1>I had no idea. I thought I was the only one.

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:30.239
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that that thing had happened to anybody else.

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 2>So that's pretty bad.

0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:33.839
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:37.040
<v Speaker 2>The guards who are running this hair in prison were

0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 2>often teenagers themselves. They're said to have often been like

0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:43.600
<v Speaker 2>boys were sixteen, seventeen, fifteen years old. So they are

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:47.279
<v Speaker 2>again both victims because they're subject to discipline and beatings themselves,

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:51.360
<v Speaker 2>but they're also being used to facilitate this abusive system

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and part because they're younger and easier for him to influence. Right.

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:57.560
<v Speaker 2>One of these boys after leaving told the BBC that

0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:00.760
<v Speaker 2>TV Joshua usually raped four to five in each week,

0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.800
<v Speaker 2>sometimes more. Former church officials. The highest number of estimates

0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:06.640
<v Speaker 2>that you can find are like in the thousands of

0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 2>victims over the years that he was doing this, So

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:14.880
<v Speaker 2>really just like a kind of incomprehensible scale, right, Yeah,

0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:17.719
<v Speaker 2>the fact that the root of TV josh was recruiting

0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:22.919
<v Speaker 2>power are these miracles forced some action from Nigerian regulators. Again,

0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:25.240
<v Speaker 2>the Nigerian government's not a monolith. There's a huge amount

0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.000
<v Speaker 2>of corruption, which is how he gets away with this.

0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:31.759
<v Speaker 2>But he is constantly subject to resistance, not just in

0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:35.359
<v Speaker 2>the government but from other Pentecostal leaders in Nigeria who

0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.000
<v Speaker 2>don't know all of this. They don't know the extent

0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:39.200
<v Speaker 2>of what he's doing, but they.

0:37:39.080 --> 0:37:41.839
<v Speaker 3>Know that he's taking the right right, right, that he's

0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:43.719
<v Speaker 3>just a bullshit artist, and that's right.

0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and probably I'm sure they had some idea that

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>there was more going on, right, but certainly we're not

0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:52.839
<v Speaker 2>aware of like the full dimensions of it. But there

0:37:52.920 --> 0:37:55.360
<v Speaker 2>was resistance, and this kind of culminated in two thousand

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:59.640
<v Speaker 2>and four in the Nigerian National Broadcasting Commission officially banning

0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:02.839
<v Speaker 2>the air ring of videos about of miracles that could

0:38:02.880 --> 0:38:06.680
<v Speaker 2>not be verified. Right, so you can't publish on television

0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 2>unverified miracles. Now, what does it mean to verify a miracle?

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.239
<v Speaker 4>I was going to say, say, you.

0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:18.439
<v Speaker 2>Get a blue check, this is a verifying miracle. Yeah,

0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:22.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't know precisely what that would mean. I haven't

0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:25.359
<v Speaker 2>found good explanations to like what kind of process they

0:38:25.440 --> 0:38:28.480
<v Speaker 2>might have had for verifying miracles. Right, we'll get to

0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the primary with his works. It doesn't wind up functioning

0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:33.480
<v Speaker 2>to actually stop him from putting out these miracle videos.

0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:36.359
<v Speaker 2>It just changes the way he's going to do it, right, Oh, right,

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:38.719
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting I read some articles about sort of

0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:41.879
<v Speaker 2>the reaction of the Pentecostal community in Nigeria to this

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:45.920
<v Speaker 2>law banning video miracles. There's not as much comprehensively like

0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:48.880
<v Speaker 2>negative reaction to it as I would have expected. The

0:38:48.920 --> 0:38:52.919
<v Speaker 2>Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria or PFN, who had long made

0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:55.080
<v Speaker 2>it clear that they did not consider TV Joshua to

0:38:55.080 --> 0:38:58.839
<v Speaker 2>be a legitimate pastor, supported the ban, arguing we don't

0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:01.880
<v Speaker 2>harbor bastards in our fold, people who have failed in

0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:04.240
<v Speaker 2>other businesses and who see the church as a better option,

0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:09.040
<v Speaker 2>which is a respectable stance. For his part, TV Joshua

0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:11.600
<v Speaker 2>claimed in public that he was the target of the ban,

0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:13.840
<v Speaker 2>and I think this is true. I do, in fact

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.520
<v Speaker 2>think he was the target of this ban. And I

0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:19.400
<v Speaker 2>should also say, all of these pastors who are supporting

0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:21.600
<v Speaker 2>the ban and who are against TV Joshua, some of

0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.319
<v Speaker 2>them are legitimately decent people. Some of them are just

0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 2>protecting their own business interests. Right. That's also a factor here.

0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:28.399
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, right right.

0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I found one quote from a contemporary article on the

0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:34.120
<v Speaker 2>bill attributed to a pastor, and it does seem to

0:39:34.120 --> 0:39:37.560
<v Speaker 2>be an only slightly veiled attack on TV Joshua quote.

0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:39.839
<v Speaker 2>According to him, the nation has reached the level where

0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.600
<v Speaker 2>people now have billboards with messages like comfort treatment of

0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.520
<v Speaker 2>all blood diseases. That is unethical, that is unhealthy, and

0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that is ungodly, he said, adding I think probably the

0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:50.279
<v Speaker 2>fear we have is that they shouldn't have a carpet ban.

0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Jesus said, we should allow the chaff to grow with

0:39:52.520 --> 0:39:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the wheat until harvest time, where God will sift the

0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:57.040
<v Speaker 2>chaff from the wheat. So this guy is being like, yeah,

0:39:57.080 --> 0:39:59.279
<v Speaker 2>it's really fucked up that they're advertising they can cure

0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:01.720
<v Speaker 2>your blood disease, but it's up to God. It should

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:03.520
<v Speaker 2>be up to God to make let people know who's

0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.480
<v Speaker 2>legit and not, which is such a weird stance.

0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:11.160
<v Speaker 4>Dare you yeah, dare you yeah? That's God's department.

0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:15.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, That's God's job. One preacher, Thomas Audu stated, as

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:17.239
<v Speaker 2>a Christian, the Bible is the basis. I mean, we

0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:19.480
<v Speaker 2>must take cognizance of the fact that not all that

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:21.480
<v Speaker 2>call the name of the Lord will enter the kingdom

0:40:21.480 --> 0:40:24.120
<v Speaker 2>of heaven. The devil himself has been shown to showcase

0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:26.480
<v Speaker 2>some miracles too, so we have to be careful not

0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:28.920
<v Speaker 2>to be carried away, which is a really fun way

0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:31.360
<v Speaker 2>of like threading that needle. You know that it's both

0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:35.520
<v Speaker 2>sides of it. Yeah, And I did find a very

0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:38.120
<v Speaker 2>fun quote from a guy who doesn't support the ban

0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:41.640
<v Speaker 2>that I actually un ironically agree with, although maybe not

0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:45.640
<v Speaker 2>in the way that that Reverend Henry Awonye meant it. Quote.

0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.359
<v Speaker 2>If they must ban miracles, they should also look into

0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.680
<v Speaker 2>some advertisements like alcohol, films, cigarettes, and movies that are

0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:54.160
<v Speaker 2>beyond the level of children. And yeah, I'm totally fine

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:55.799
<v Speaker 2>with that. Let's bad adds to kids.

0:40:55.880 --> 0:40:56.360
<v Speaker 4>Let's do it.

0:40:56.719 --> 0:41:00.200
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing I love about people with bands. They're like, well,

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:02.280
<v Speaker 3>if you ban this, you might as well ban the Bible.

0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:04.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah right.

0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe in banning any particular book, but I

0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:11.080
<v Speaker 2>believe I'm fine with banning fake miracles on TV.

0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying the way the logic always

0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:17.360
<v Speaker 3>eventually comes back for the thing they're trying to protect,

0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:18.880
<v Speaker 3>where it's like, well, then we might as well do this,

0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:21.560
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, maybe you do. I mean, like you can

0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 3>find a sense of destruction or you know, negativity and whatever.

0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:25.360
<v Speaker 4>You look for.

0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what's interesting to me about

0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:32.439
<v Speaker 2>this is this ban is clearly crafted to stop TV

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Joshua from recruiting people, but he kind of pivots. And again,

0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:39.680
<v Speaker 2>maybe the worst thing about this guy is how smart

0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:41.799
<v Speaker 2>he is. Right because one of the things he is

0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:46.040
<v Speaker 2>early on is realizing the value of social media, and

0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:49.160
<v Speaker 2>so he makes kind of a seamless pivot. He launches

0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:53.320
<v Speaker 2>a satellite station, a manual TV that's like a YouTube channel,

0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:56.399
<v Speaker 2>and so he gets over the benefit on televising. Shit.

0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:58.560
<v Speaker 2>He's like, oh, yeah, TV is not even where it

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:00.640
<v Speaker 2>is anymore. I'm just gonna start a fucking YouTube channel.

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:02.279
<v Speaker 2>We'll get the videos out that way, We'll get him

0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:06.359
<v Speaker 2>out to even more fucking people. He is considered maybe, Uh,

0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:08.520
<v Speaker 2>there's definitely some expert qute in the BBC. Here's like

0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:11.360
<v Speaker 2>he was the first of these pastors in Nigeria at least,

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:13.280
<v Speaker 2>and one of the first in the world to really

0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.080
<v Speaker 2>recognize how to use the Internet to spread this kind

0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:17.080
<v Speaker 2>of propaganda.

0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:22.280
<v Speaker 3>God damn it, Like, is he ever gonna fucking slip up? Uh?

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean yes, but it doesn't really matter.

0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:29.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah right right, yeah.

0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.759
<v Speaker 3>But it's like every single thing, it's like he but

0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.600
<v Speaker 3>like his instincts are just like spot on. It's like,

0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:36.359
<v Speaker 3>oh yeah, okay, can't I'll pivot to digital video, I'll

0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:36.920
<v Speaker 3>pivot to this.

0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The two thoughts you have reading about him is like,

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:43.520
<v Speaker 2>what a monster? And also, man, this guy was fucking smart, Like, yeah,

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:47.080
<v Speaker 2>he knows what he's doing. He's got like seamless instincts. Yeah.

0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So in following years, he would become one of the

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:52.200
<v Speaker 2>first pastors in Nigeria to create a Facebook account and

0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.239
<v Speaker 2>again to start uploading his videos to YouTube. And I

0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:57.160
<v Speaker 2>think a manual TV starts as like a satellite TV station,

0:42:57.280 --> 0:42:59.920
<v Speaker 2>but like they start up a YouTube account very quickly,

0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 2>He's putting videos on Facebook and they get to the

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.040
<v Speaker 2>point where both of these accounts have millions and millions

0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:08.560
<v Speaker 2>of followers and subscribers, and this really supercharges the growth

0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:11.800
<v Speaker 2>of his flock to an astronomic level. By twenty fourteen,

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Scone has branches in London, Greece, Ghana, South Africa, and

0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:18.760
<v Speaker 2>a number of other countries and millions of followers around

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the world. His prominence only increased in the years since

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the TV miracle ban. In twenty twelve, he was declared

0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 2>one of the fifty most influential people on the entire

0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:31.719
<v Speaker 2>continent of Africa by the Africa Report. Scone became host

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to powerful people from across the region. Ghana's president, Zimbabwe's

0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Prime minister, Nigeria's first lady and the wife of Nelson

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Mandela all attended services. Big names you.

0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:44.560
<v Speaker 4>Know, yeah, yeah, I've heard of them.

0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I heard of them. So many Pentecostal pastors in

0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Nigeria and elsewhere, or like many Pentecostal pastors not just

0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:54.319
<v Speaker 2>in Nigeria but in the United States. He sold prayer

0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:58.040
<v Speaker 2>cloths and holy water to followers. He claimed that the

0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:00.680
<v Speaker 2>water itself was treatment for a number of illnesses, and

0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.719
<v Speaker 2>as usual, he primed worshippers with videos of people cured

0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:06.440
<v Speaker 2>of AIDS and other endemic illnesses with his holy water,

0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:08.800
<v Speaker 2>and then he started hawking it to crowds of people

0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:11.480
<v Speaker 2>at churches in Ghana, Sierra Leone and elsewhere in a

0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:15.200
<v Speaker 2>West Africa. Here's one worshiper testimonial on the power of

0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:18.839
<v Speaker 2>this anointing water. I myself have bought the anointing water

0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:21.040
<v Speaker 2>and I have seen the miracles it performs. My father

0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:23.240
<v Speaker 2>was suffering from pain in his leg when I sprayed

0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:26.759
<v Speaker 2>the water, and after praying, the pain went away. So

0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:30.040
<v Speaker 2>that's good. This guy continued, It's like in Jesus's time,

0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:31.680
<v Speaker 2>he did a lot of miracles, so a lot of

0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:34.320
<v Speaker 2>people followed him. Now we see that God can manifest

0:44:34.320 --> 0:44:36.160
<v Speaker 2>again when people come to the church if they pray

0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and they believe, they are healed. And I might say, like,

0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Jesus charged anybody, Like I don't tend

0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:46.160
<v Speaker 2>to believe in supernatural hearing. But at least my recollection

0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:47.880
<v Speaker 2>of the Bible from when I was a Christian is

0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:49.280
<v Speaker 2>he was not charging people.

0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:51.400
<v Speaker 3>No, that was kind of the whole thing. It was like,

0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:53.600
<v Speaker 3>here's just I mean, for lack of a better word,

0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:56.960
<v Speaker 3>he's hooking people up, you know, yeah, just because.

0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Striking things attached to his phone that starts asking you

0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:01.000
<v Speaker 2>for tips.

0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:03.680
<v Speaker 3>He's like, all right, what's going on? What's his dude's name, Lazarus?

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:05.359
<v Speaker 3>Hold on what y'all want?

0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:08.080
<v Speaker 4>Oh? Hold on, hold on, man, he's gonna.

0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Sell me that paper table taped over the stigmadel hole

0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:13.200
<v Speaker 2>in his hand. That's got a venmo qr codes.

0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:16.040
<v Speaker 4>The stigmata is a QR code.

0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:21.160
<v Speaker 2>The stigmata is Yeah, just scan this nail.

0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:22.000
<v Speaker 3>Size hole right there.

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:23.319
<v Speaker 4>Uh huh, there you go.

0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.719
<v Speaker 3>Now, yeah, I can get your boy las up real quick.

0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:28.000
<v Speaker 4>You know what I mean. But that's just gonna look

0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:29.799
<v Speaker 4>like five. That's like five rex all right.

0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:35.200
<v Speaker 2>So, like any good business man, TV Joshua knew that

0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:38.400
<v Speaker 2>both hype and scarcity were critical for driving up demand,

0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:41.239
<v Speaker 2>but those two factors also have a tendency to make

0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:45.440
<v Speaker 2>people crazy, and in Ghana this resulted in a massive stampede.

0:45:45.480 --> 0:45:47.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna quote from an article in The Guardian. Here

0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:51.279
<v Speaker 2>the worshippers were hoping to obtain Holy New anointing water,

0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:54.200
<v Speaker 2>which a manual TV had announced would be distributed for free.

0:45:54.440 --> 0:45:57.760
<v Speaker 2>The anointing water usually costs eighty seti's, but we learned

0:45:57.760 --> 0:45:59.720
<v Speaker 2>on Sunday that it would be given out for free.

0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:03.439
<v Speaker 2>Said Joseph Adenvoor fifty two, who witnessed the fatal stampede.

0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:06.200
<v Speaker 2>I have never seen anything like it before. People had

0:46:06.239 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 2>come from Togo, been in and even from Kenya. They

0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:10.640
<v Speaker 2>tried to close the church, but people were climbing over

0:46:10.680 --> 0:46:13.120
<v Speaker 2>the walls and breaking in. The police and army were there,

0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:16.560
<v Speaker 2>but they couldn't control the crowds. The police who are

0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 2>investigating the deaths so that they had not anticipated the

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.280
<v Speaker 2>number of people who would attend the church and worshipers

0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:23.840
<v Speaker 2>arriving with as early as two am. All of us

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.200
<v Speaker 2>were caught by surprise. Police spokesman Freemonteta told the BBC

0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:30.680
<v Speaker 2>World Service, no one knew the crowd will be so huge.

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:33.759
<v Speaker 2>Four people died and more than thirty were injured. So

0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:37.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, good, I get stuff now.

0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:39.160
<v Speaker 3>In this one, he took a lesson out of like

0:46:39.280 --> 0:46:43.080
<v Speaker 3>hype beast, like Black Friday, doorbuster sale culture.

0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Right yes. And in fact, a few weeks before this,

0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:48.520
<v Speaker 2>he made an unannounced appearance in the capital of Ghana,

0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:50.960
<v Speaker 2>which shut the city down for a full day because

0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:54.319
<v Speaker 2>he was selling stickers for cars that he promised if

0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:56.080
<v Speaker 2>you put these stickers on your cars, they'll free you

0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:58.920
<v Speaker 2>from poverty. And it caused such a stampede that it

0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:02.239
<v Speaker 2>like shuts the whole city because he doesn't warn authorities,

0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:04.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, right, Yeah, It's like it's like if the

0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:07.879
<v Speaker 2>president started showing up in cities with his motorcade and

0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:11.120
<v Speaker 2>like no, no warning was given to like local police,

0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:12.600
<v Speaker 2>so you're just it would, it would be even I

0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>mean it's already pretty bad. If you've ever been in

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:15.359
<v Speaker 2>a city when the.

0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:18.000
<v Speaker 3>President's like, yeah, man, we can we'll forgive your debt. First,

0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:19.799
<v Speaker 3>fifty people here forgiven your debt.

0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:20.799
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'll give you.

0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:23.320
<v Speaker 2>I'll give you like a passport too. How far away

0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:25.000
<v Speaker 2>could we possibly be from that?

0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:25.759
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:30.560
<v Speaker 3>Oh god, God, I don't want to think about I

0:47:30.560 --> 0:47:32.000
<v Speaker 3>don't want to think that too far.

0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:32.440
<v Speaker 4>In the future.

0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good. Let's just stick to twenty fourteen,

0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:40.040
<v Speaker 2>when in a Bola outbreak ravage sections of West Africa,

0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:43.120
<v Speaker 2>and government officials had to go to TV Joshua not

0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:46.800
<v Speaker 2>for help treating the disease, obviously, but because they needed

0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.480
<v Speaker 2>to tell him to tell his followers from other West

0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:54.120
<v Speaker 2>African countries don't go to Lagos for healing right now. Right,

0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:58.080
<v Speaker 2>They're being like, look, man, we know the benefit, like

0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:02.480
<v Speaker 2>the deals you have do not like, we cannot encourage

0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:05.480
<v Speaker 2>any religious tourism right now because that's just gonna spread

0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:08.480
<v Speaker 2>a Bola to the fucking capital, right Yeah. And I

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.839
<v Speaker 2>will say TV Joshua was a rational and a person

0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 2>to be like, well, yeah, that's probably not good for anybody.

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.279
<v Speaker 2>That's probably gonna be bad for me if that.

0:48:16.440 --> 0:48:18.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, He's like, I'm gonna be at the Prime Minister's

0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.839
<v Speaker 3>house tomorrow hooking people up.

0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Come through. He does cancel a bunch of upcoming healing sessions,

0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:28.279
<v Speaker 2>which is the minimum he could have done, but he

0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:31.160
<v Speaker 2>also sends four thousand bottles of anointing water to Sierra

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Leone with a claim that it would cure anyone suffering

0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:36.040
<v Speaker 2>from a bola. The water was flown in on a

0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:38.120
<v Speaker 2>private jet that cost as much to make the trip

0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:40.719
<v Speaker 2>as the cash donation TV Joshua's church made to buy

0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:43.279
<v Speaker 2>food for victims of a Bola from an article in

0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:47.040
<v Speaker 2>The Independent Quote. The preacher's TV channel, Emmanual dot TV

0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:49.839
<v Speaker 2>showed video of a man called Joe Faya Numa, who

0:48:49.840 --> 0:48:53.400
<v Speaker 2>claims to represent Sierra Leone's High Commission, accepting the donation.

0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:55.840
<v Speaker 2>Numa says on the video that the water will be

0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:58.200
<v Speaker 2>used to curb the deadly Ebola yoke that is about

0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:02.720
<v Speaker 2>to destroy our nation. So that's good. You love spreading

0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:04.560
<v Speaker 2>disinformation about fucking Abola?

0:49:05.360 --> 0:49:07.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah and yeah, and turn it into a little bit

0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:07.920
<v Speaker 3>of marketing.

0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a little bit of marketing. Now, miles, you know

0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:15.080
<v Speaker 2>who can cure your abola. The only people who can

0:49:15.120 --> 0:49:19.160
<v Speaker 2>cure your abola the good folks at who make Yeah,

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:21.680
<v Speaker 2>so uh, you know, purchase it.

0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:28.920
<v Speaker 4>We're back.

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.959
<v Speaker 2>Like all true prophets, TV Joshua made numerous predictions about

0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:35.959
<v Speaker 2>the future with perfect accuracy, at least according to him.

0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:38.839
<v Speaker 2>One of his chief claims to fame was correctly anticipating

0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:42.320
<v Speaker 2>the maybe not so tragic in retrospect death of Michael Jackson.

0:49:42.800 --> 0:49:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Starting in January two thousand and nine, he told his

0:49:45.239 --> 0:49:48.319
<v Speaker 2>followers to expect the death of a great star when

0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:50.399
<v Speaker 2>the King of Pop died a mere six months later,

0:49:50.600 --> 0:49:53.280
<v Speaker 2>he told everyone that's who I was referring to all along.

0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:55.960
<v Speaker 2>And this is a he does this a lot.

0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:56.320
<v Speaker 3>This.

0:49:56.640 --> 0:49:58.719
<v Speaker 2>This is one of the more fun bits of TV

0:49:58.840 --> 0:50:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Joshua lore, like Bob of.

0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:03.279
<v Speaker 3>Wanga type shit, where it's yeah, like, oh, you're in there.

0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:05.799
<v Speaker 3>We got something coming this year, right, Yeah.

0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:08.920
<v Speaker 2>In January twenty thirteen, he told followers, I am seeing

0:50:08.960 --> 0:50:11.160
<v Speaker 2>flame in America. Just a quarter of a year later,

0:50:11.280 --> 0:50:14.360
<v Speaker 2>the Boston Marathon was bombed. And although that didn't really

0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:17.120
<v Speaker 2>involve a tremendous amount of flame, yeah, I think it

0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:19.200
<v Speaker 2>was more of just like a brief explosion in trapnel

0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:21.879
<v Speaker 2>but like whatever, he claims victory again, right, I might

0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:24.960
<v Speaker 2>also say like three months later, four months later, Like

0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:27.279
<v Speaker 2>if you're saying, I think America is going to be

0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:29.839
<v Speaker 2>subject to a deadly attack that happens like every week

0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:30.120
<v Speaker 2>or so.

0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:31.959
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, one way to be fair.

0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:34.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and even flame like at the rate of forest fires,

0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:36.800
<v Speaker 3>Like you're lucky to you know, get at least a

0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:37.960
<v Speaker 3>couple of year, you can claim.

0:50:38.160 --> 0:50:40.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you claim some sort of attack or a

0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:43.359
<v Speaker 2>deadly thing is going to hit a bunch of Americans,

0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, three months ahead of time, something will happen, right.

0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:47.680
<v Speaker 4>There's their own health care system.

0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:51.920
<v Speaker 2>There will be a crash, you know whatever. Yeah. Critics

0:50:51.960 --> 0:50:54.240
<v Speaker 2>claim that there's not even any evidence that he made

0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:57.439
<v Speaker 2>the prediction in January, just a video published months later

0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:01.440
<v Speaker 2>that Scone claimed had been recorded in January, so who knows.

0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:04.319
<v Speaker 2>That same year, he predicted an attack in France, telling

0:51:04.360 --> 0:51:06.440
<v Speaker 2>the people of the country that they should pray against

0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:09.200
<v Speaker 2>suicide bombers or any attack of any kind that will

0:51:09.239 --> 0:51:12.840
<v Speaker 2>affect many. Two years later, Isis militants carry out a

0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:15.480
<v Speaker 2>series of attacks on the Botoclon nightclub in areas around

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:17.880
<v Speaker 2>it in Paris, killing like one hundred something people. And

0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:20.200
<v Speaker 2>he's like, this is what I was referring to two

0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:25.680
<v Speaker 2>years previously ago. Just like yeah, like, France is a

0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.600
<v Speaker 2>big country. If you're like, sometime in the next two years,

0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:31.640
<v Speaker 2>a bad thing will happen in France, it will.

0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:34.839
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's probability at that point.

0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:37.440
<v Speaker 3>But hey, he's you know, he's seeing things he is

0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:39.360
<v Speaker 3>as an intermediary.

0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:43.000
<v Speaker 2>One of his few fuck ups is in twenty sixteen,

0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:49.239
<v Speaker 2>he calls the US presidential election for Hillary Clinton. Now, ah, man,

0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:52.520
<v Speaker 2>I know what you're saying, Miles, I'm pretty sure Hillary

0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Clinton did not in fact win the twenty.

0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:59.000
<v Speaker 4>Sixteen Hillary one. Hillary won, the election was stolen.

0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you are a big Hillary truther. Scoon had a

0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:06.480
<v Speaker 2>response to that when people were like, it seems like

0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:08.440
<v Speaker 2>he was wrong about this. And this comes from the

0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Nigerian magazine Punch. TV Joshua has set his prophecy on

0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:14.120
<v Speaker 2>US election was not off the mark. He added that

0:52:14.160 --> 0:52:17.040
<v Speaker 2>people need spiritual understanding to be able to interpret it.

0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:20.200
<v Speaker 2>During a service at the headquarters of his church at Ikuotun,

0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Lagos and Sunday, Prophet TV Joshua said there was nothing

0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:27.680
<v Speaker 2>controversial about the prophecy. It is human beings that are controversial.

0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:30.600
<v Speaker 2>He stated that his words were misinterpreted because we're not

0:52:30.640 --> 0:52:34.160
<v Speaker 2>on the same level of spiritual understanding, an explanation which

0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.080
<v Speaker 2>drew Applaus from Sky. Literally he's like, Oh, you just

0:52:37.120 --> 0:52:39.720
<v Speaker 2>don't get how right I was because I'm built different. Baby.

0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:41.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's on you.

0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:43.040
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry, I can't.

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:45.480
<v Speaker 3>I can't get you up to this level you Yeah,

0:52:45.960 --> 0:52:49.439
<v Speaker 3>or just kind of like the dude from Big Lebowski's like, yeah,

0:52:49.480 --> 0:52:51.839
<v Speaker 3>that's just like your opinion, man.

0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, God, that's good. That's just that's just quality

0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:56.840
<v Speaker 2>shit right there, Miles.

0:52:56.960 --> 0:52:59.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's shiitthousery to the maximum right there.

0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:02.959
<v Speaker 2>Now. By far, TV Joshua's favorite use of his gift

0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of prophecy was to engage in his by now well

0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:09.320
<v Speaker 2>established tradition of fucking with Ghana for absolutely no reason.

0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:13.320
<v Speaker 2>That same year, twenty sixteen, he proticts a massive terrorist

0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:17.080
<v Speaker 2>attack in Ghana, which provokes widespread panic among people in

0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Ghana and like the police and security surface services have

0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:22.319
<v Speaker 2>to keep issuing assurance as being like, we have no

0:53:22.440 --> 0:53:26.120
<v Speaker 2>evidence that anything is wrong. Police, don't panic that you're

0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:28.919
<v Speaker 2>about to die because of what the I don't even

0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:30.840
<v Speaker 2>there's not even a I think the only reason is

0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:33.920
<v Speaker 2>that he's like, well, you know, probably there will be

0:53:34.040 --> 0:53:36.480
<v Speaker 2>some sort of terrorist attack in Ghana at some point,

0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.759
<v Speaker 2>like most countries have them occasionally. So if I just

0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:42.759
<v Speaker 2>call one now, eventually, I'll be right and I can

0:53:42.800 --> 0:53:45.160
<v Speaker 2>add this to my list of correct prophecies. Who gives

0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 2>a shit if it causes a panic in the short term, right.

0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:48.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, exactly.

0:53:48.400 --> 0:53:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. He made a similar prophecy later in twenty sixteen,

0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:56.600
<v Speaker 2>warning that South Africa's Orlando Stadium would be the site

0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of a massive terrorist attack during an upcoming rap concert.

0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:05.120
<v Speaker 2>Didicted twelve thousand deaths from this attack. Nothing that's your called.

0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:07.360
<v Speaker 2>I think he was getting He's kind of he's getting

0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:10.759
<v Speaker 2>sloppy at this point. That's what the hell would they

0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:11.239
<v Speaker 2>do that?

0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:14.200
<v Speaker 4>Like, yeah, come on, babe, Ruth, Yeah, you're not them all.

0:54:14.600 --> 0:54:17.600
<v Speaker 2>What would the what what weapon would even cause a

0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:20.600
<v Speaker 2>death toll like that? That's four nine elevens right? How?

0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.880
<v Speaker 3>And like, what's the capacity of that stadium? He's basically

0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:25.719
<v Speaker 3>saying like a third of it or whatever? How many people?

0:54:25.920 --> 0:54:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Like, it's a big stadium, you could certainly hold more

0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.040
<v Speaker 2>people than that, But how would you kill everyone in

0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:33.760
<v Speaker 2>the stadium? Yeah, and right, like why a rap vocal

0:54:33.800 --> 0:54:36.120
<v Speaker 2>haram isis neither of them have access to that kind

0:54:36.120 --> 0:54:36.960
<v Speaker 2>of weaponry.

0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:40.120
<v Speaker 3>Wait, but what's the like he said a rap concert?

0:54:40.239 --> 0:54:42.960
<v Speaker 3>Like was that meant to be? Like a specific artist?

0:54:43.800 --> 0:54:45.359
<v Speaker 3>There was a rap concert right right?

0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:45.640
<v Speaker 4>Right?

0:54:45.760 --> 0:54:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why I'm not enoe of an expert

0:54:48.360 --> 0:54:50.960
<v Speaker 2>on like the dynamics of the rap industry in Nigeria

0:54:51.000 --> 0:54:54.319
<v Speaker 2>and how it relates to the evangelical movement to know

0:54:54.360 --> 0:54:55.400
<v Speaker 2>if there was more going on?

0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Right, well, this is South Africa. Maybe he wasn't a

0:54:57.520 --> 0:54:58.520
<v Speaker 3>fan of deantword.

0:54:58.840 --> 0:55:03.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, maybe who could blame him for that? We all

0:55:03.440 --> 0:55:05.000
<v Speaker 2>saw that fucking movie?

0:55:05.360 --> 0:55:07.799
<v Speaker 4>Right, no, no, no.

0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Good god?

0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:10.680
<v Speaker 3>Was it?

0:55:10.800 --> 0:55:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Chappy? My god? That's the real crime making champy?

0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:17.680
<v Speaker 4>Why why did they allow them in here?

0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:20.720
<v Speaker 3>Also, he's like the guy's a monster and the girls

0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:21.560
<v Speaker 3>a Nepo baby.

0:55:21.600 --> 0:55:24.360
<v Speaker 4>Apparently I ain't hip hop.

0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I haven't kept up with Dean Twards since that movie.

0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Why William?

0:55:29.080 --> 0:55:30.960
<v Speaker 3>I think I think you you may be able to

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:32.000
<v Speaker 3>do an episode on them?

0:55:32.280 --> 0:55:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh good, okay, cool, that'll be fun. Yeah. So obviously

0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:39.319
<v Speaker 2>twelve thousand people are not killed in the stadium and

0:55:39.360 --> 0:55:41.759
<v Speaker 2>when nothing happens he announces that the post on his

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Facebook page predicting this had been fake news, so you

0:55:45.000 --> 0:55:47.640
<v Speaker 2>loved it again, he keeps learning he's paying attention to Trump.

0:55:47.640 --> 0:55:49.839
<v Speaker 2>At this point he's like, well, shit, I can make

0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:50.319
<v Speaker 2>money on.

0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:52.600
<v Speaker 4>This, right, my god.

0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:56.399
<v Speaker 2>So by twenty fourteen, TV Joshua was forty nine years

0:55:56.440 --> 0:55:59.120
<v Speaker 2>old and worth I think the estimates of his wealth

0:55:59.120 --> 0:56:01.280
<v Speaker 2>are all fucked because they usually say ten to fifteen

0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:04.399
<v Speaker 2>million dollars, but like, he has a private jet that's

0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:07.680
<v Speaker 2>worth like sixty million dollars. He's in the Panama Papers,

0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.680
<v Speaker 2>he and his wife for having incorporated a company in

0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:14.600
<v Speaker 2>the British Virgin Islands. And like, you don't the Panama Papers.

0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't think. I don't think you're noteworthy among that

0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:20.279
<v Speaker 2>crowd at ten to fifteen million dollars. No, that's like

0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:25.239
<v Speaker 2>what their gardeners make. Yeah, exactly, my steriously. Yeah, your

0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:30.480
<v Speaker 2>daughter's your gardener. Yeahah yeah, I'm gonna guess he has

0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:33.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot more cash than this. But he's just smart

0:56:33.280 --> 0:56:36.200
<v Speaker 2>about like he is about most things about like protecting.

0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:38.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, his presentation of it all.

0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:41.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he has a lot more to hide than

0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:43.920
<v Speaker 2>just money. This kind of prison harem conflex. He built

0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:46.640
<v Speaker 2>for this purpose, or at least one of them, because

0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:48.360
<v Speaker 2>there are, you know, several you saw the video of that,

0:56:48.440 --> 0:56:51.120
<v Speaker 2>several large buildings in the compound, and one of them

0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:55.279
<v Speaker 2>that he plans himself, is initially four stories tall, and

0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:57.680
<v Speaker 2>this is the height of the building that the foundations

0:56:57.680 --> 0:57:00.640
<v Speaker 2>had been poured to support. As time went on, scone

0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:02.600
<v Speaker 2>keeps growing and he's like, I want to make this

0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:05.600
<v Speaker 2>building taller, so add another couple of stories to the top.

0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:09.279
<v Speaker 2>There all designed them right. All the construction on the

0:57:09.320 --> 0:57:11.600
<v Speaker 2>property is carried out by cult members because that saves

0:57:11.640 --> 0:57:14.720
<v Speaker 2>time and money. And he's the one designing the building

0:57:14.800 --> 0:57:18.000
<v Speaker 2>himself and basically bribing the governments and architects to ignore that,

0:57:18.160 --> 0:57:21.240
<v Speaker 2>like nothing is being done up to spec and this

0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:23.479
<v Speaker 2>becomes a problem. Miles. I don't know if you're aware

0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:25.480
<v Speaker 2>of this, but if you add more stories to a

0:57:25.480 --> 0:57:28.200
<v Speaker 2>building that it's meant to support, that could cause some

0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:29.160
<v Speaker 2>serious issues.

0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:31.920
<v Speaker 3>Ata, No, that's just I think you're kind of like

0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:35.520
<v Speaker 3>on a different level of spiritual understanding that I'm on

0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:38.560
<v Speaker 3>when it comes to geometry or physics.

0:57:38.920 --> 0:57:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you're a big I don't know enough about

0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:46.040
<v Speaker 2>physics to make a good joke about this. So maybe

0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:48.080
<v Speaker 2>it's fine, but it's not going to be fine. It's

0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:49.160
<v Speaker 2>got to kill a lot of people.

0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:51.920
<v Speaker 3>You know who else they said, couldn't keep adding stories.

0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:53.080
<v Speaker 4>Jesus Christ.

0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ. And then we got the Book of Revelations.

0:57:56.440 --> 0:57:59.920
<v Speaker 3>Praise to now scan my stigmanor.

0:58:00.760 --> 0:58:04.880
<v Speaker 2>For someation. So as Ray related quote, he just kind

0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:06.920
<v Speaker 2>of kept pushing and saying, I want it higher. It

0:58:07.000 --> 0:58:11.040
<v Speaker 2>must go higher, it must go higher. So that's that's great.

0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:12.640
<v Speaker 2>This is not going to end well, miles hot.

0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:14.880
<v Speaker 3>Wait, so what was it built for and what are

0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:15.360
<v Speaker 3>the building?

0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:15.520
<v Speaker 5>Ends?

0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Were stories? And it winds up being six So they've

0:58:18.560 --> 0:58:21.280
<v Speaker 2>got like fifty percent more weight on that foundation than

0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:24.080
<v Speaker 2>it should have, and one has to assume other corners

0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:28.240
<v Speaker 2>are being cut to. People were aware from a fairly

0:58:28.400 --> 0:58:31.760
<v Speaker 2>early period that the building is not safe. It would sway,

0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:35.160
<v Speaker 2>like you could see and feel it swaying in heavy wind.

0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Followers reported that the staircases and the building around the

0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:42.520
<v Speaker 2>staircases would wobble when you went up, which is a

0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:44.400
<v Speaker 2>bad sign on something.

0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.640
<v Speaker 4>You've ever been on a wobbly staircase?

0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.520
<v Speaker 2>No, now, fuck that shit. I mean maybe if I was.

0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:53.040
<v Speaker 3>Like tripping or something, maybe I've been on a few while,

0:58:53.040 --> 0:58:55.920
<v Speaker 3>but like never in my right frame of mind.

0:58:55.640 --> 0:58:59.280
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, firmly in reality. No, yeah, it's you. You

0:58:59.320 --> 0:59:01.640
<v Speaker 2>would not want to be in a building like this.

0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:05.800
<v Speaker 2>On September twelfth, twenty fourteen, one of TV Joshua's disciples

0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:07.880
<v Speaker 2>warned him that the structure of the building was showing

0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:11.320
<v Speaker 2>imminent signs of failure. He ignored the warning and ordered

0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:15.000
<v Speaker 2>two hundred foreign visitors, mostly South Africans, into the ground

0:59:15.000 --> 0:59:17.680
<v Speaker 2>floor dining room so that they could eat lunch. Two

0:59:17.720 --> 0:59:20.440
<v Speaker 2>hours later, the building collapsed, and the video of this

0:59:20.760 --> 0:59:23.880
<v Speaker 2>like it looks like you know, if you've seen like

0:59:24.080 --> 0:59:26.160
<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven footage, it's like that kind of collapse.

0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:28.440
<v Speaker 2>It just is, it's there and it goes down and

0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:31.520
<v Speaker 2>it's like pancakes on It's just like, yeah, it pancakes.

0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:32.400
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:35.720
<v Speaker 2>If you remember back in Florida, there was that condo

0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:39.000
<v Speaker 2>building a few years back, it looked a lot like

0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:43.760
<v Speaker 2>that where it's just down. Dozens, perhaps more than one hundred,

0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:46.880
<v Speaker 2>were killed instantly. More than eight hundred people are also

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:50.440
<v Speaker 2>trapped inside. These numbers are really vague. We have no

0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:52.960
<v Speaker 2>idea how many people were in the building when it collapsed,

0:59:53.040 --> 0:59:57.200
<v Speaker 2>or how many died. Really because first responders are blocked

0:59:57.200 --> 1:00:00.600
<v Speaker 2>from entering the compound itself for twenty four four hours,

1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:05.560
<v Speaker 2>right what he attempts to have his own people carry

1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:08.960
<v Speaker 2>out the rescue efforts and blocks the government from entering.

1:00:09.680 --> 1:00:10.560
<v Speaker 4>Oh my god.

1:00:10.960 --> 1:00:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. From one report quote, some church workers attempted to

1:00:14.320 --> 1:00:16.760
<v Speaker 2>save lives in reckless and amateur ways without the use

1:00:16.760 --> 1:00:19.600
<v Speaker 2>of mechanical equipment or medical training. They use tools from

1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:22.520
<v Speaker 2>the church's maintenance department. In one instance, a church worker

1:00:22.520 --> 1:00:25.040
<v Speaker 2>allegedly used a chainsaw to amputate the leg of a

1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:28.160
<v Speaker 2>man who was trapped under a fallen beam. He was screaming,

1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:30.960
<v Speaker 2>says a manual visually shaken during his interview. He is

1:00:31.000 --> 1:00:33.120
<v Speaker 2>not sure if the man survived. I saw a lot

1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:36.160
<v Speaker 2>of things that really traumatized me. Faces were crushed, says Michael,

1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:38.400
<v Speaker 2>a disciple who was in his late teens at the time.

1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:42.280
<v Speaker 2>Followers have since told reporters that they were told during

1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:44.240
<v Speaker 2>this like twenty four hour period where he's kept the

1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:47.160
<v Speaker 2>authorities out, that some of his followers are ordered to

1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:50.560
<v Speaker 2>drive vanloads full of corpses out of the compound to

1:00:50.640 --> 1:00:54.280
<v Speaker 2>be buried in secret. What we can verify is a

1:00:54.320 --> 1:00:56.880
<v Speaker 2>death toll of at least one hundred and sixteen.

1:00:58.000 --> 1:01:00.160
<v Speaker 4>Sh what can be fair ify?

1:01:00.560 --> 1:01:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, almost certainly more than that. How much more

1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:08.439
<v Speaker 2>is unclear, but like that's a lot, you know, that's

1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:11.000
<v Speaker 2>all out on its own, a really bad disaster, you know.

1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:13.080
<v Speaker 3>Right, and especially when you have to add the caveat

1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:14.800
<v Speaker 3>where it's like, look, these are the ones we can

1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:17.760
<v Speaker 3>confirm because we've also heard that they were absconding with

1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:18.800
<v Speaker 3>corpses in that night.

1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were driving vans of dead people away to

1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:25.840
<v Speaker 2>god knows where. A coroner's inquest found that the church

1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:29.560
<v Speaker 2>was culpable for criminal negligence and recommended that TB. Joshua

1:01:29.560 --> 1:01:32.720
<v Speaker 2>will be personally charged. But once again he bribed local

1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:36.480
<v Speaker 2>officials and reporters and nothing was done to placate his

1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:39.960
<v Speaker 2>own followers. TB. Joshua turned towards the well worn authoritarian

1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:43.120
<v Speaker 2>tactic of spreading conspiracy theories, and I mentioned in episode

1:01:43.120 --> 1:01:46.720
<v Speaker 2>one he was generally better on like not being racist

1:01:46.800 --> 1:01:50.520
<v Speaker 2>against Muslims than most Pentecostal preachers in Nigeria are kind

1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:52.880
<v Speaker 2>of known to be. This is where he turns on that,

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.840
<v Speaker 2>because he decides the best way to try to put

1:01:55.880 --> 1:01:59.080
<v Speaker 2>this away is to claim that Boko Haram had carried

1:01:59.080 --> 1:02:02.240
<v Speaker 2>out a terrorist tack to destroy the building. It wasn't

1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:03.920
<v Speaker 2>that he ordered them to make it in a way

1:02:03.920 --> 1:02:06.840
<v Speaker 2>that was unsafe. And he even he has his people

1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:10.600
<v Speaker 2>edit together a loose change style documentary that claim to

1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:15.200
<v Speaker 2>show either Nigerian government or terrorist Boco Horam jets flying

1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:17.480
<v Speaker 2>over the complex before the structure failed.

1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:25.120
<v Speaker 3>No, yeah, they're doing like he doesn't Alex Jones, and

1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:28.600
<v Speaker 3>they're they're putting like it was doctored footage or that's

1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:30.360
<v Speaker 3>what they're just saying, like they have a count I.

1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:33.439
<v Speaker 2>Have seen clips from this documentary and it doesn't even

1:02:33.520 --> 1:02:36.040
<v Speaker 2>sound or look like there's like there's a plane in

1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:39.400
<v Speaker 2>the air, but like it's the capital of Nigeria. There's

1:02:39.400 --> 1:02:42.280
<v Speaker 2>always planes in the air. There's certainly it doesn't show

1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:44.320
<v Speaker 2>a jet fighter bombing this.

1:02:44.360 --> 1:02:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Building, right, And I'm sorry, that's a Boco Haram fighter jet.

1:02:48.760 --> 1:02:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that really think Boco Haram have fighter jets.

1:02:53.120 --> 1:02:55.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure they've got some like planes like prop planes

1:02:55.800 --> 1:02:58.680
<v Speaker 2>and shit, you know, they're not a tidy organization. But

1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:01.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think there of carrying out an aerial bombing

1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:05.040
<v Speaker 2>on the capital of Lagos. I think that's beyond Boko

1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Haram's capacity.

1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think, yeah, the Nigerian government may have

1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:11.120
<v Speaker 3>something to say to if that actually happened.

1:03:11.240 --> 1:03:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the Nigerian government probably say something like

1:03:14.360 --> 1:03:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Boko Haram did care. I believe they carried an attack

1:03:16.640 --> 1:03:19.040
<v Speaker 2>on like a mall in Nigeria around this period, and

1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:21.400
<v Speaker 2>it was not like hushed up. It was a pretty

1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:26.560
<v Speaker 2>big deal. Yeah, Jesus, So it works well enough. TB.

1:03:26.720 --> 1:03:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Joshua continues to preach and Scone continues to rake in

1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:32.960
<v Speaker 2>money for another seven years. He would likely still be

1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:36.000
<v Speaker 2>making money to this day. But on June fifth, twenty

1:03:36.040 --> 1:03:39.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty one, right after carrying out a life broadcast, TB.

1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Joshua dropped dead. He was fifty seven years old. His

1:03:42.920 --> 1:03:45.520
<v Speaker 2>wife claims that he had shown no signs of illness previously,

1:03:45.560 --> 1:03:48.200
<v Speaker 2>but like that doesn't mean anything. These people are all liars,

1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:50.400
<v Speaker 2>you know. Yeah, maybe he had cancer, maybe he had

1:03:50.400 --> 1:03:52.640
<v Speaker 2>like a hard condition, who knows. I don't. It's not

1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:54.960
<v Speaker 2>clear to me that we will ever know precisely, but

1:03:55.080 --> 1:03:56.440
<v Speaker 2>thankfully he's fucking dead.

1:03:56.840 --> 1:03:59.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. The one thing we know is that it wasn't karma,

1:04:00.160 --> 1:04:02.760
<v Speaker 4>because the case of these.

1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely not karma because he never really pays

1:04:08.840 --> 1:04:11.160
<v Speaker 2>the price. I guess you could say he died earlier

1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:13.960
<v Speaker 2>than is normal for a man of his level of wealth,

1:04:14.000 --> 1:04:17.080
<v Speaker 2>but not early enough that I'm like good, you know, yeah, yeah,

1:04:17.120 --> 1:04:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's good that he's dead, but it took

1:04:20.160 --> 1:04:24.200
<v Speaker 2>God took a sweet time on this one. He has

1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:28.200
<v Speaker 2>a massive funeral, obviously well attended by local celebrities and politicians.

1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:32.400
<v Speaker 2>An enormous crowd marches his coffin through the streets. His wife, Evelyn,

1:04:32.440 --> 1:04:34.760
<v Speaker 2>has taken over scone and his wake. I think it's

1:04:34.800 --> 1:04:37.800
<v Speaker 2>probably suffered without him, as he never left a clear successor.

1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:41.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think the general consensus from people who know

1:04:41.120 --> 1:04:44.160
<v Speaker 2>more about Pentecostals in Nigeria than I do is that

1:04:44.480 --> 1:04:47.720
<v Speaker 2>he's probably The church is probably slowly on its way

1:04:47.920 --> 1:04:51.560
<v Speaker 2>to fading into irrelevance, but you know, it's still around.

1:04:52.280 --> 1:04:55.120
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, TB. Joshua never really brought to justice for

1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:58.000
<v Speaker 2>his crimes, so that's cool. Maybe something will happen to

1:04:58.040 --> 1:05:00.360
<v Speaker 2>Evelyn now that some of this stuff is come out,

1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:02.000
<v Speaker 2>But I don't have a ton of faith in it

1:05:02.080 --> 1:05:03.240
<v Speaker 2>in that No, No.

1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:06.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Seldom the bad guys seem.

1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:09.240
<v Speaker 4>To win a lot, yes, yeah, a weird way. But

1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:12.880
<v Speaker 4>who knows, Maybe maybe that'll change, Maybe that'll change.

1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that. Yeah, maybe we'll finally get a handle on

1:05:15.280 --> 1:05:17.520
<v Speaker 2>the human race this year. Maybe this will be the one,

1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:18.280
<v Speaker 2>you know.

1:05:18.360 --> 1:05:21.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, we're starting not strong, this is Yes, it's

1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:22.600
<v Speaker 3>been a good year so far.

1:05:22.720 --> 1:05:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it seems like everyone's doing really well. Speaking of

1:05:26.720 --> 1:05:30.760
<v Speaker 2>doing well, Miles, why don't you do well by directing

1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:33.280
<v Speaker 2>our listeners towards your pluggables.

1:05:33.440 --> 1:05:37.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thank you so much again for listening to me

1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:39.880
<v Speaker 3>right now. And I will I will count on your

1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:44.880
<v Speaker 3>continued support with my miss my missionary my mission church

1:05:45.240 --> 1:05:50.400
<v Speaker 3>evangelicalism podcast called The Daily Zeitgeist. It's about news, politics, comedy,

1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:53.120
<v Speaker 3>and and just a little bit of good old christ

1:05:53.160 --> 1:05:56.520
<v Speaker 3>talk too. Uh So checking that every day. Uh and

1:05:56.600 --> 1:06:01.520
<v Speaker 3>also check out Silvermiles dot net where you can pick

1:06:01.600 --> 1:06:04.840
<v Speaker 3>up some of my blessed vials of colloidal silver.

1:06:05.520 --> 1:06:06.800
<v Speaker 4>Uh and you can.

1:06:07.240 --> 1:06:09.440
<v Speaker 3>It cures honestly everything, like I don't even have to

1:06:09.480 --> 1:06:10.760
<v Speaker 3>tell you because it literally heres.

1:06:10.760 --> 1:06:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1:06:12.320 --> 1:06:15.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you'll get better at like fucking video games. It's

1:06:15.760 --> 1:06:18.320
<v Speaker 3>not really for health. I should say that, it's not

1:06:18.400 --> 1:06:20.600
<v Speaker 3>for health. It's like more like stuff to be cooler.

1:06:21.040 --> 1:06:23.800
<v Speaker 2>So okay, Wow, that's very responsible, Miles.

1:06:23.920 --> 1:06:27.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it'll make you a better freestyle wrapper. Yeah, graffiti,

1:06:27.280 --> 1:06:28.640
<v Speaker 3>it does it all, it doesn't all.

1:06:28.800 --> 1:06:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I'm gonna go ahead and say it'll cure

1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:33.200
<v Speaker 2>your syphilis. So don't go to the doctor if you

1:06:33.240 --> 1:06:41.960
<v Speaker 2>get syphilist because silver Miles dot Net. Anyway, Sophie, Uh,

1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:45.600
<v Speaker 2>we're not still sponsored by the by Big Syphilis, are we?

1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:50.920
<v Speaker 2>All right now big s Yeah? All right, then avoid

1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:53.600
<v Speaker 2>catching syphilis until they pay us.

1:06:57.480 --> 1:06:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production a cool Zone. Need

1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:03.840
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1:07:04.000 --> 1:07:07.200
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1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:09.800
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