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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about illness

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Speaker 2: by the sickest man in podcasting, Robert evans Uh. We're

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Speaker 2: recording this about a week after our TV Joshua Part

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Speaker 2: one episodes with the Great Miles Gray. Miles take an

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Speaker 2: audio bow. Wow, what a bow, beautiful microphone. I'm technically better,

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Speaker 2: I guess. I have this fun thing that happens with

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Speaker 2: sinus infections where my nose is mostly better, but now

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Speaker 2: my jaw hurts like hell. It's like a I think

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Speaker 2: it's partly related to coughing, but it happens when you're

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Speaker 2: when your sinuses get completely fucked. So I'm feeling great.

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Speaker 2: Miles how Yeah, yeah, I'm always putting silver in various parts.

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Speaker 1: Do you watch sorry, did you watch that documentary?

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Speaker 3: Miles?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Any any time?

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Speaker 4: He was a crip.

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Speaker 2: My favorite thing is people taking quack medicine that turns

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Speaker 2: them different colors. Dude, that's it's so good. Every time

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Speaker 2: it's funny.

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Speaker 3: I it's like it's fucked up. But like I was

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Speaker 3: taking so many screenshots when I was watching that that

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Speaker 3: I use as memes among my friends, like just this

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Speaker 3: one where the guy was playing guitar. She was in

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Speaker 3: the bed. Yeah, I said, just like the energy of

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Speaker 3: playing guitar for a corpse like that.

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Speaker 2: You're like, oh, this is what's the BES needs.

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Speaker 1: I quite literally forced Jamie to watch that all the

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Speaker 1: way through. In the middle of the night. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I can't be awake tomorrow and you

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Speaker 1: have not watched this for me to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about this shit.

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Speaker 3: It was mean mile when they were wheeling her through

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Speaker 3: that the whole thing was out of whatever.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, it was great because it led me after I

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Speaker 2: was watching it with friends and afterwards we were very

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Speaker 2: much like, well, I still want more cult content, and

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Speaker 2: we we found fucking I think it was Netflix. We

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Speaker 2: were on I forget whatever thing we were on. The

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Speaker 2: algorithm was like this. It was here's a show about

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Speaker 2: like this commune that might be a cult or might not.

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Speaker 2: It was like a mystery show and I put it on.

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Speaker 2: In the first episode feels kind of like a documentary.

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Speaker 2: There are a couple of weird moments and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what's going on with this? And then the second episode

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Speaker 2: it's it immediately transitions to being a reality show fully,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, they tricked us. They tricked us

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Speaker 2: in the thinking that we were watching like a documentary

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Speaker 2: about this commune that got accused of being a cult,

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Speaker 2: and it's just a reality show where people have to

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Speaker 2: live on a commune, right, And I was like, you

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Speaker 2: tricky bitches. This is this country, this fucking country. Horrible

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Speaker 2: speaking of this country. You know it's not this country, Miles.

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Speaker 2: Where Nigeria? Yes, yeah, you know. I'm not an expert

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Speaker 2: on Nigeria. The of my research suggests different country than

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Speaker 2: than we live. And to be honest, thank you, I

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Speaker 2: thought it was good.

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Speaker 4: It connected with the main thought.

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Speaker 2: Which was it's not this country. Yeah, it's not this country,

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Speaker 2: but it is where TB. Joshua lived. And most great

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Speaker 2: cult leaders, Miles have a title or an alternate name

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Speaker 2: they prefer to be known by. I'm not gonna say

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Speaker 2: every cult leader, but a lot of them do, right.

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Speaker 2: Al Ron Hubbard was the Commodore because he loved navies

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Speaker 2: and making people pretend to be in his navy. Keith

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Speaker 2: Rniery was known as Vanguard to his followers. I had

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Speaker 2: a beance joke in here, but I really like, why

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Speaker 2: would I that? I don't need I don't need that

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Speaker 2: kind of game. We're gonna bleep it out anyway, like

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Speaker 2: they did in that Donald Glover's show, Sophie. So it's fine, right. So,

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Speaker 2: in keeping with the fact that he was a general

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Speaker 2: creep and monster TV, Joshua had the most unsettling cult

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Speaker 2: leader nickname imaginable Daddy. That's just mm, that's the good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Not like their father sometimes too, but like Daddy specifically

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Speaker 2: is what most of his followers refer to a mass,

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Speaker 2: which is just an extra level I don't know why

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Speaker 2: it's worse than Father. I guess it's not. Maybe it's

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Speaker 2: just like exposure because of the Catholic Church. We're all

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Speaker 2: used to religious figures being father, like.

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Speaker 3: Daddy is creepy, right, No, Daddy is because it's like

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Speaker 3: it's juvenile, but also there's it's sexually charged in different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I mean, and it is in

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Speaker 2: this context because like the people who he was most

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Speaker 2: insistent call him Daddy were the young female followers that

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Speaker 2: he was fucking right.

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Speaker 4: Why did first?

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Speaker 3: Second, I forgot I was on behind the Bastards, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I finally said, chill, We're just

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Speaker 3: like we're just gonna talk about Mother God. And then

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Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, that's right, we're talking about TV. Fucking

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Speaker 3: Joshua again. We wait, I thought I was watching a

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Speaker 3: Netflix documentary about a cult and now I'm on a

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Speaker 3: fucking reality show.

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Speaker 2: That's such a fun cult documentary because like it's I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a story about a woman destroying herself and like dying,

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Speaker 2: but she's also the cult leader. And it's like interesting

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Speaker 2: because it's a cult leader where the primary victim was

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Speaker 2: the cult leader. Yeah, like the cult leader was the

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Speaker 2: victim of the cult in a way that's really fun. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to this, which is just horrible. But you

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Speaker 2: know this is Yeah, we're not going to give you

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Speaker 2: the fun story. You're not going to hear about Mother God. Here,

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Speaker 2: go watch HBO if you want.

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Speaker 3: Is there coidal silver at the very least in this one?

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Speaker 2: There there is quack remedies. But those quack remedies are

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Speaker 2: just praying until your cancer eats you alive. Okay, all right, yep,

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Speaker 2: So I'm still in stuff. Yeah, I'm still in Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you're contractually obligated to be. We have we have ironclad

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Speaker 2: tracks with our kids. Hey, don't don't reveal the process here.

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Speaker 4: I know I'm locked in.

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Speaker 2: We're represented by one of those Epstein lawyers, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's just anyway. Speaking of abusive relationships, let's talk about

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Speaker 2: the tale of one of TV Joshua's followers. Ray Ray

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Speaker 2: is an english woman. She Brighton, England, where she went

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Speaker 2: to university for Nigeria. In the winter of two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two, she traveled there with a friend to see TB. Joshua. Now,

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Speaker 2: both Ray and her friend were strict Christians who had

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Speaker 2: seen videos of TV Joshua's miracles, passed around in tapes,

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Speaker 2: and heard stories from other evangelicals who'd gone to his church.

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Speaker 2: Right again, as you noted, it's very much like I

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Speaker 2: don't know the way that like, you know, back in

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Speaker 2: the early odd's, late nineties, like punk bands, you'd get

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Speaker 2: like some burnt like you get like a tape or

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Speaker 2: something from a friend of yours. Right, it's like a

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Speaker 2: live session from this band no one else has ever

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Speaker 2: heard of. And yeah, that's how that shit spread. It's

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Speaker 2: the same way with this And in Ray's accounting, she

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Speaker 2: watched these videos for the first time with her church

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Speaker 2: congregation when she was sixteen, so a couple of years

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Speaker 2: before she went over there, and quote the whole room

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Speaker 2: went completely still when they first watched TV Joshua cure people. Now,

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Speaker 2: it's one thing to say these people were convinced that

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Speaker 2: TV Joshua could work miracles and wanted to see that

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Speaker 2: for themselves, but that doesn't get at the essential horror

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Speaker 2: of what was going on here. Ray, Like a lot

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Speaker 2: of TV Joshua's foreign volunteers was homosexual, and because of

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Speaker 2: the religious environment she was raised in and the time again,

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Speaker 2: you got to remember, this is the early two thousands,

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Speaker 2: were in a very different period for a lot of

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Speaker 2: this stuff. She believed that this was immoral and she

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Speaker 2: wanted to pray the gay away, right, Like that was her, Like,

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Speaker 2: she recognized this about her. She's raised in this culture

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Speaker 2: and she wants to be cured of this, and whatever

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Speaker 2: she's doing at home is not getting rid of this

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Speaker 2: thing that is part of her, right right. And she

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Speaker 2: sees these videos of this supernaturally powerful preacher in Nigeria

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Speaker 2: and is like, maybe he can do it, right, I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like fixing this guy's like leg or whatever

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Speaker 3: we saw last time. Yeah, yeah, And obviously that doesn't work,

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Speaker 3: but you can see why she would get hope for

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Speaker 3: this for the first time. Right as a result of

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Speaker 3: like watching these videos, Ray Letter told him it later

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Speaker 3: told an I thought, well, maybe this is the answer

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Speaker 3: to my problems. Maybe this man can straighten me out,

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Speaker 3: Like if he prays for me, I won't be gay anymore.

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Speaker 3: And so after she and her friend went and visited

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Speaker 3: Scone for a week, her friend goes back to the UK,

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Speaker 3: but Ray elects to stay to like drop out of school,

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Speaker 3: to basically leave her family and to join his church.

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Speaker 3: She recalls thinking this is what Jesus would have done.

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Speaker 3: An article published based on a BBC Africa I report

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Speaker 3: states neither Ray nor many of the young people who

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Speaker 3: left their home countries to meet Joshua in the early

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Speaker 3: two thousands paid.

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Speaker 2: For their tickets. Church groups across England raised funds to

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Speaker 2: send pilgrims to Lagos to witness these miracles, and Joshua

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Speaker 2: contributed scone money himself. Senior former church insiders say later,

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Speaker 2: once the church was well established, he charged high prices

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Speaker 2: for pilgrims to come and stay. So it's really like

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Speaker 2: a bait and switch type thing, right, Like we'll put

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Speaker 2: money into bringing people over here until we've established demand

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Speaker 2: in the industry because there's so many people coming back home. Right,

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Speaker 2: he's a good business man, right, evil business man, but

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Speaker 2: most goodness susmitter evils.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there's no.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't make the line go up unless you

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Speaker 3: have truly despicable aliams or are You're just like no,

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Speaker 3: I'm just good at getting the people here and making

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Speaker 3: the money.

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Speaker 2: And the line is going up for Scone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Bisola, a Nigerian woman who spent fourteen years inside these

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Speaker 2: Scone compounds, says that courting Westerners was a key tactic. Quote.

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Speaker 2: He used white people to market his brand, and it's

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Speaker 2: worth noting that miracles were also marketed, as we've said

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Speaker 2: to other Africans, and that TB. Joshua was an equal

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Speaker 2: opportunity abuser, but the abuse looked different depending on where

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Speaker 2: you were coming from. And this brings us to how

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Speaker 2: he treated members of the Nigerian LGBTQ community. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to quote from an article by Open Democracy here. Hans

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Speaker 2: Lean Davids, who works with the Inclusive and Affirming Ministries IAM,

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Speaker 2: a Pan African network that champions LGBTIQ rights and religious organizations,

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Speaker 2: says that Joshua promotes the notion that LGBTQ people are

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Speaker 2: bad spirits blocking prosperity. Parents from poor communities bring their

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Speaker 2: children that are lgbtiq' identifying to Joshua's services and the

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Speaker 2: hope that their bad omen child will be turned into

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Speaker 2: something good and they will start to have good luck

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Speaker 2: and prosperity, says David's who is a former reverend with

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Speaker 2: the Uniting Reformed Church in Southern Africa. And so again

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Speaker 2: for kids like Ray, the preacher is that like this

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Speaker 2: can fix you. This guy is so much more powerful

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Speaker 2: than any of the religious leaders you've seen in your country,

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Speaker 2: and he can actually fix you where they can't. And

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Speaker 2: when they're talking to like when he's sort of like

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Speaker 2: preaching to queer Nigerians, what he's saying is that like

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Speaker 2: if you send your kids here for me to fix them,

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Speaker 2: the bad luck that your family has incurred because you

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Speaker 2: have a gay child in the family will be wiped

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Speaker 2: away and your family will start making more money. Right,

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Speaker 2: Like that's literally the pitch. Yeah, And both of those

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Speaker 2: things are evil, they're just a bit different, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Which we're just using.

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Speaker 4: Different motivators to get people there, right.

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Speaker 2: And it showcases that this is someone with a pretty

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Speaker 2: keen understanding of both cultures. He understands the Western cultures

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Speaker 2: that he's recruiting from, and he understands like his own

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Speaker 2: community right and that different approaches are going to work better.

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Speaker 2: Right now, This gets us to another interesting difference between

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Speaker 2: sorry and I think like it's kind of key to

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Speaker 2: note that when it comes to how he preached to

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Speaker 2: poor Nigerians, to Ghanians, to peoples in West Africa, and

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Speaker 2: largely the people he is recruiting from there, not exclusively,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of them are very poor. He focuses

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Speaker 2: on prosperity, right, and not just in terms of like

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Speaker 2: promising that if you come to the church, if you

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Speaker 2: send him your kids for him to fix them, your

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Speaker 2: family will be prosperous. But he does this sort of

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Speaker 2: thing that's very common in the US among prosperity gospel churches,

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Speaker 2: where you have to tie a huge chunk of your income.

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Speaker 2: He asks for ten percent from the incomes of all

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Speaker 2: of his church members, and that will ensure that God

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Speaker 2: blesses your finances. So the way this is and again

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Speaker 2: a lot of this is prosperity gospel shit. You get

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Speaker 2: this in the US all the time. You have to

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Speaker 2: give money to the church. But that's how you guarantee

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Speaker 2: God will increase your income, right, Like, that's the only

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Speaker 2: way for you to make more. I'm one of God's

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Speaker 2: official agents, man, So here's a deal. Give me about

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Speaker 2: like ten give me a ten percent kind of your shit.

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Speaker 2: I'll fucking tell God, Yo, make sure you hooked them

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Speaker 2: up this month, and we're good. We're good. So, over

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Speaker 2: the first twenty or so years of operations, gone perfected

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Speaker 2: the practice of reaching out to people in different ways,

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Speaker 2: and of course the practice of faking miracles. And this

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Speaker 2: is what all of these tactics rely upon, is faking miracles.

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Speaker 2: Witnesses have claimed two press that not only were some

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Speaker 2: miracle recipients actors, as we've already discussed, but it was

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Speaker 2: also common practice to trick actual sick people into playing

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Speaker 2: their part. TV Joshua's agents would comb logos for people

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Speaker 2: with health problems that were easily treated. But like, these

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Speaker 2: people couldn't afford to treat those health problems, right, So

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Speaker 2: it's you've got some sort of you know, bacterial sickness

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Speaker 2: or whatever, a virus even that we can treat, you

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Speaker 2: just can't afford to treat it. These people will be

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Speaker 2: brought in and then in the food or water they're

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Speaker 2: being given, they would be drugged and treated against their

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Speaker 2: knowledge and told that what was fixing them was them

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Speaker 2: being prayed over right. They were gaslighting people into believing

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Speaker 2: that they had been cured.

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Speaker 3: So like someone like has some kind of like maybe

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Speaker 3: like parasitic infection or something like that, and they're like, dude,

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Speaker 3: just fucking hit them with the antibiotics and they're fucking yogurt.

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Speaker 4: And then yeah, wow.

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Speaker 2: Because if you've got you know, because of you know,

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Speaker 2: the water, the lack of good water, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of especially these poor communities. Yeah, there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of people with with parasitical and with that sort of shit,

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Speaker 2: with these certain sorts of like intestinal parasites. Once you

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Speaker 2: get people good medicine, the degree to which people like

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Speaker 2: improve is it will it does feel magical. I fel

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Speaker 2: like you don't know what's being done right right, Like

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Speaker 2: it's such a quick change, and yeah, it's I've never

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Speaker 2: heard of anyone doing that. And it's like, I guess objectively,

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Speaker 2: it's better than the other thing he's doing, which is

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Speaker 2: like lying to people about the fact that he can

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Speaker 2: cure their cancer because this is an HIV.

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Speaker 4: They're like, yo, don't do the meds. Just pray, just pray.

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Speaker 2: This is get I don't know why it disturbs me

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Speaker 2: more because it's objectively not as bad, but it is like,

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Speaker 2: weirdly more fucky. I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you're completely you're using the their own distress

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Speaker 3: over their their health to then like supercharge your shitty

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Speaker 3: belief factory to then be like, yeah, man, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: take your stress about this, and I'm going to convert

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Speaker 3: that into just devotion to what I'm telling you, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: staying in line and promoting my message all the while

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Speaker 3: when it's like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just gave you fucking a Marxis cylind or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, or literally like I've remect them. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that is like what we're giving them a lot

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Speaker 2: of times because it's it's an effective anti parasitic Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Also for com Yeah, and also for of course here's

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Speaker 2: COVID poidal silver too. Yeah. Yeah, I just you know, myles,

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Speaker 2: I just take silver. When if I start to feel

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Speaker 2: under the weather, I keep a pile of silver in

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Speaker 2: my gun safe, and I just eat one of those

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Speaker 2: little silver bars, you know. Yeah, it's like an extended

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Speaker 2: really capsule. But yes, he's eating silver bullets.

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Speaker 4: No, I need those for werewolf's minds. Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to spread this information on

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Speaker 4: the show.

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Speaker 2: It gets a lot worse somehow. So I mentioned last

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Speaker 2: episode that given Nigeria's problems with HIV, a lot of

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Speaker 2: TV Joshua's claimed miracles had to do with curing people

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Speaker 2: of that illness. Here's the thing. It's actually kind of

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Speaker 2: hard to convince someone who is dying of AIDS that

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Speaker 2: you have fixed them, right, because they continue to be

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Speaker 2: really sick, so they opted to go and obviously, like

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Speaker 2: HIV and AIDS are not the same thing. But someone

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Speaker 2: who is untreated HIV it will eventually progress and become

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Speaker 2: clear that they have not become cured, and that that's

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Speaker 2: a potential danger.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: If people do eventually realize that you were lying to them,

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Speaker 2: they could you know, speak out about it and cause problems.

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Speaker 2: So the much safer thing that the church eventually lands

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Speaker 2: on is bribing doctors to tell congregants they've tested positive

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Speaker 2: for HIV and then curing them having them go get

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Speaker 2: a real HIV test and an actual clinic and it

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Speaker 2: comes back negative because they were not sick fucking out

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Speaker 2: of here, you know, right, that's so fucking evil, Holy shit, Jesus,

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Speaker 2: every this is such a different kind of bastard.

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Speaker 3: You know, like the past, we've talked about all kinds

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Speaker 3: of Nazis, child abusers, just general edgett. This guy is

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Speaker 3: just completely fucking with people's realities in a way that's

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Speaker 3: a just it's like it's I hate using the word,

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Speaker 3: but it's like genius.

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Speaker 2: It is, it's it's.

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Speaker 3: And it's fucking it's fucking with me that like he's like, no,

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Speaker 3: this is what you gotta do.

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Speaker 4: You get the people who don't have it.

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Speaker 3: It's get them. If pop on a fucking fake test,

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Speaker 3: then you go take the real thing and then guess

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Speaker 3: what we fucking won. But it feels like also something

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Speaker 3: like how probably like finance works at higher levels too,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean of this same thing of like, no,

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Speaker 3: just make it look like this and then why I

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Speaker 3: think it's key to understand stuff like this because it's

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Speaker 3: so easy, especially when people talk about cults like this

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Speaker 3: that are operating in like Nigeria, for folks to have

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Speaker 3: the wrong idea that like, well, you know, maybe these

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Speaker 3: people are not like are getting tricked or something because

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Speaker 3: they lack access to education that people have. And I

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Speaker 3: would hope that the degree of misinformation around shit like

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Speaker 3: COVID in the US would disabuse you of that. Like,

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Speaker 3: it's not it has very little to do with your

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Speaker 3: level of education. In this case, it's even less because

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Speaker 3: you're dealing with people who probably can't afford a lot

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Speaker 3: of medical care. And so the church says, as churches

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Speaker 3: often do legitimately all throughout the world, we are offering

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Speaker 3: medical tests to see if you have HIV or whatever.

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Speaker 3: People who do not have access to much money go

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Speaker 3: and get the test. It tells them they're sick. They

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Speaker 3: get cured, so they think by you know, they by

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Speaker 3: TV Joshua, and then they become dedicated members of the

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Speaker 3: church and give them what little money they have, you know,

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Speaker 3: and like what other options do A lot of these people.

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Speaker 2: Half right, you know, like, yeah, that's an insane thing

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Speaker 2: they have to deal with.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what makes it, I guess.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just doubly vile because you're already you're already

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Speaker 3: taking advantage of the inequity that exists within your country.

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Speaker 4: To then be like, yea, let me just exacerbate this

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Speaker 4: even more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like one of the most comprehensively evil things

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Speaker 2: I've ever heard of someone doing.

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Speaker 4: It's it's pretty bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But you know what isn't comprehensively evil, Miles, It's

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Speaker 2: just a little evil. Tell me the sponsors of this podcast. Okay, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's our guarantee. Just a little evil. Ah, We're back.

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Speaker 2: So put up against all of this perfectly managed spectacle,

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Speaker 2: confused young people in their teens and twenties, who'd already

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Speaker 2: bought into a fundamentally delusional strain of a miracle ridden

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Speaker 2: chunk of the faith had no defense. And I'm speaking

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Speaker 2: about the Westerners here primarily. I want to quote again

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Speaker 2: from the BBC discuss in the story of our friend Ray.

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Speaker 2: When Ray landed in the seething heat of Lagos, she

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Speaker 2: saw miracles. Two dozens of people came and testified to

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Speaker 2: having been healed of serious illnesses. I had a really

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Speaker 2: involuntary reaction. I just broke down in floods of tears,

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Speaker 2: she said. It was then that Ray was chosen. Joshua

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Speaker 2: singled her out to become a disciple an elite group

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Speaker 2: of followers who served him and lived with him inside

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Speaker 2: his compound. Ray thought she was going to study under

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Speaker 2: Joshua to cure her sexuality, to learn how to heal people.

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Speaker 2: The reality was very different. We all thought we were

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Speaker 2: in heaven, but we were in hell, she says, and

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Speaker 2: in hell, terrible things happen. TB. Joshua sexually abused Ray,

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Speaker 2: and not just here, but numerous other disciples. That was

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Speaker 2: largely the point of being at least the female disciples.

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Speaker 2: The male disciples got abused too, but I think it

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Speaker 2: was more like literally just getting physically beaten and tortured

393
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Speaker 2: and shit when they didn't, you know, do things because

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Speaker 2: he's you know, he's an abusive asshole, right in addition

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Speaker 2: to being just calculated evil. We don't know how many

396
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Speaker 2: of these women there were, at least dozens. Most most

397
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Speaker 2: of the people who were inside and have gotten out

398
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Speaker 2: suspect that the number of women he sexually abused is

399
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Speaker 2: in the hundreds. I mean, it could be higher than that. Like,

400
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Speaker 2: this guy was in power and wealthy for a long

401
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Speaker 2: time and had access to a lot of people. By

402
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Speaker 2: this point the early aughts, the Synagogue Church of All

403
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Speaker 2: Nations had expanded into a compound of several full city

404
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Speaker 2: blocks wide, with massive towers of apartment buildings, a grand

405
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Speaker 2: stadium capable of hosting tens of thousands of worshippers, school shops,

406
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Speaker 2: and theaters. It was effectively a city within a city.

407
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Speaker 2: The women chosen by Joshua were isolated, locked away from

408
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Speaker 2: friends or family and from each other. They were often

409
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Speaker 2: kept in total isolation, right, locked in individual cells effectively.

410
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Speaker 2: Ray claims that she believed firmly she was the only

411
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Speaker 2: disciple in a romantic relationship with TV Joshua, and so

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Speaker 2: great was his control, and I mean that's how she

413
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Speaker 2: described it. I don't think romantic would be the right

414
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Speaker 2: way to actually describe this, but at the time, that

415
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Speaker 2: was how she was looking at it, right. She also

416
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Speaker 2: claims that his control was so great that he was

417
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Speaker 2: able to make it impossible for most of the women

418
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Speaker 2: he was abusing to know that other women were being abused. Right.

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Speaker 2: This is something you'll hear from a few of his victims,

420
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Speaker 2: so it seems to be probably pretty consistent. Joshua, like

421
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Speaker 2: most cult leaders, was not a big fan of condoms,

422
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Speaker 2: and as a result, a lot of the women that

423
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 2: he slept with wound up pregnant, often repeatedly. Dozens of

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Speaker 2: women have claimed to the BBC that they were forced

425
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Speaker 2: to have abortions by TB. Joshua, who seems to have

426
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Speaker 2: had no desire himself to father multiple children. He does

427
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Speaker 2: have some kids, but most of the time he seems

428
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Speaker 2: to have just ordered these women to get abortions. One

429
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Speaker 2: of his former victims told an interviewer, if any of

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Speaker 2: us got pregnant, he said, you cannot betray the man

431
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Speaker 2: of God. We have to do something about it. I

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00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: never had a choice whether I could keep a potential

433
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: child or not. I felt like I didn't own my body.

434
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 2: And for an idea of how prevalent this was, how

435
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: consistent a thing this was for him, TB. Joshua's evangelical

436
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 2: Christian compound had a secret on site abortion clinic just

437
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 2: to service his victims. WHOA, yeah, oh my god, yeah

438
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: it see okay, yeah, yeah. He has like an underground

439
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: abortion clinic in this like little city that he's built

440
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 2: just like for his victims.

441
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 3: Right, and all the money that he's raking in just

442
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: goes to creating this like bubbled reality city to do this.

443
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: Kind of shit in yeah, where he exercises total control.

444
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 2: And when I say abortion clinic, don't picture a clean,

445
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: competent plant parenthood facility. TB. Joshua is still an evangelical

446
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: Pentecostal and believes that abortion is wrong, but he primarily

447
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 2: seems to have believed that it was wrong for the

448
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: women that he was assaulting to get pregnant at all. Right,

449
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: and thus he saw the procedure not just as necessary

450
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 2: for his own benefit, but as a punishment for them, right.

451
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 3: Holy shit, Like because they like, how dare you get

452
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 3: again exactly unprotected sex?

453
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am like God's prophet, and there's nothing more

454
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: important than my work, and you're putting it at risk

455
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: with your selfish decision to get preg That seems to

456
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: be from the way they talk about it. That seems

457
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,479
Speaker 2: to be how he treated this, right, Okay. Jessica Kimu,

458
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: who is one of his African victims. She's from Namibia,

459
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: says that she was taken by Joshua at age seventeen,

460
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 2: raped and locked away to what amounted to a dungeon.

461
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,719
Speaker 2: He kept her there for five years and forced her

462
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: to have as many abortions over the years. Quote. These

463
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: were backdoor type medical treatments that we were going through.

464
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: It could have killed us. Another follower went into more detail.

465
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: You know it, you skip your first period, you skip

466
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: your second period, and you have to talk in secrecy.

467
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 2: You'd be taken by one of these elder moms to

468
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 2: this clinic of his. And he's referring to part of

469
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: the facilitation process that this whole cult runs by is

470
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: he's got some of these elder women who do a

471
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: lot of the work of handling the younger women that

472
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 2: he's abusing, right, because he's not going to do that himself. Right,

473
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 2: he's got cult leadership to do. You know, he has

474
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: had more important things to handle.

475
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's taking medical diagnoses.

476
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah right. TB. Joshua had a ferocious temper, probably not surprising,

477
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: and the man his followers called Daddy was prone to

478
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: fly into rages at the drop of a hat. The

479
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: most severe punishment he meted out was forced isolation, because

480
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: that's pretty close to the worst thing you can do

481
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: to somebody, and this was often prescribed for the women

482
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: he had he was abusing. Ray says that she was

483
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: locked alone in a room at one point for two

484
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: years and was visited only by TB. Joshua for reasons

485
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: I probably don't need to explain. She attempted suicide several

486
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: times while imprisoned in the compound, but again, that's not

487
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: easy to do because of the degree of control he has. Yeah,

488
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 2: like I said, this is one of the worst stories

489
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: I've ever come across, and it sure is.

490
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 3: And like it has it's like any conceivable way to

491
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 3: be a despicable person. He's like, Oh, like I'm engaged

492
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 3: in that too.

493
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

494
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: Imprisonment, trafficking, a sexual assault, sexual violence, yeah, medical gas lighting,

495
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: like fucking literally anything.

496
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I don't want to say, you know, when

497
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: you're talking about like really bad cult leaders, it's making

498
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: like a moral distinction, like this one was worse than

499
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: this one. Yeah, I've never been more disturbed by a

500
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: cult story than this. This is like the most unsettling

501
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: cult shit I've ever read about. I think.

502
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and someone who's like because a lot of the

503
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 3: times it's like it's just like an unwell narcissist with

504
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: like great charisma who's like racist. Yeah, and then this

505
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 3: guy is so deeply thinking about the myriad of ways

506
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: he can control and abuse people.

507
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's when you're like.

508
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's a completely different level, or not

509
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 3: a different level, but it's just a different level of severity.

510
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. More common punishments were meted out to regular

511
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 2: followers or the prophets of people that he's not having

512
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: sex with. Right. These would include whipping with chains or horsewhips,

513
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: the use of electrical cables to whip people for punishment,

514
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: and of course it was also just there was a

515
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: level of average abuse that all of the people who

516
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: lived on scone property were forced to go through. Everyone

517
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: living on this compound is made to wake up early

518
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: and go to sleep very late. They are often forced

519
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 2: into physical labor. All of these buildings, which are massive constructions,

520
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: are built by his followers who are living on site

521
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: at least as much as possible. I'm sure they had

522
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: to pull in contractors for some stuff. But he's and

523
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: the reason he's doing this, and this is normal cult stuff. Right.

524
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: You keep everyone sleep deprived because that reduces their general

525
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 2: level of defense. You know, it's a pretty common cult tactic.

526
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: Men were also given roles as his close disciples, and

527
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: they were used to abuse women and other men. You know,

528
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: it's a lot of the men who are his enforcers

529
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 2: who are doing these physical punishments, but they were also

530
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 2: comprehensively abused as well, as this passage from one of

531
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: the BBC's investigations makes clear. Former disciple Giles Hurst thirty

532
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: one says at first that he was love bombed, a

533
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: term that can be used to describe when culture group

534
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: shower or a g recruit with love and accolades to

535
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: get them to join. But when he became a Disciplehurst

536
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: said he saw the other side. Competition was fierced among

537
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: the two hundred or so disciples for Joshua's attention, and

538
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: they were encouraged to report each other for behaviors deemed wrong.

539
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: He said, Sinser confessed in front of others, recorded an

540
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: archived According to Hurst and other former disciples, passports are

541
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: taken along with novels and any medications, including mild painkillers

542
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: or malaria pills. Permission from Joshua in the form of

543
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 2: assigned pass is needed just to make a phone call

544
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 2: or email. Hurst said, so again, that kind of speaks

545
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: to the overall level of control that everyone's under in

546
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: like kind of the central part of the compound where

547
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: he's got his closest followers.

548
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 3: Is there, how many people like lived in that city.

549
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: It's really unclear to me, at least hundreds. I think

550
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: it fluctuates over time, in part because the amount of

551
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 2: facilities available, and like an onion, right, you've got this

552
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: kind of the area closest to him living around him,

553
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: and like the most secure facilities a couple hundred people,

554
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: you've got some less secure facilities where people are under

555
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: less control, and you have a larger number of them,

556
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: and you have a much larger number of people who

557
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: are coming into the ceremonies, who are probably volunteering their time,

558
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: who are certainly tithing money, but they live outside of

559
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: the property, and to them it maybe doesn't feel like

560
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 2: and maybe it just does kind of feel like a

561
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: normal church that you give money to and you volunteer at.

562
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: You know, that's certainly the way it feels for the

563
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: majority of people, I think who are contributing to this.

564
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: You know, the number of people it's it's it's a cult,

565
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: but it's not recognizable as being in a cult to

566
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: the majority of people who are aware of TV Joshua

567
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: and think that he's a man of God, right right, right,

568
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: because like, why would you there's no need to have

569
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: tens of thousands of people in that kind of control.

570
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: You don't have that kind of time, you know, like,

571
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: why would.

572
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: You any fake COVID tests I can get.

573
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: Ye, yeah exactly, that's just exhausting. Obviously, this is only

574
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: possible because the Nigerian government was a full patsy to

575
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: TV Joshua's activities. The amount of money he brought into

576
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: the country was seen as worth whatever harm he did.

577
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: Immigration officials even acted to smooth the passage and long

578
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: term visas of Westerners who came to join his church.

579
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: There was effectively an accelerated entry program into the country

580
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: just for TV Joshua followers.

581
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: Wow.

582
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you get like your visa extra fast if

583
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: you're coming in, you know, because they know the officials

584
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: in Lagos number one, they're getting paid directly, and they

585
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: also know these people are bringing money into the country.

586
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, It's like it's not like we're just getting bribed.

587
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 3: It's like there is a tangible effect on the economy.

588
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is a benefit for like the country.

589
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: You know, two ros do make a right exactly exactly,

590
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: that's ours. As a result of this situation, speaking out

591
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: against scone was dangerous, you know, because the authorities are

592
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: on their side. It was not until the BBC Open

593
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: Democracy Joint Report, published in January of twenty twenty four

594
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: as both a series of articles and a documentary that

595
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: any of this information came out. In one of many

596
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: articles on the subject, the BBC notes a number of

597
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: our witnesses in Nigeria claim they were physically attacked and

598
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: in one case shot at, after previously speaking out against

599
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: the abuse and posting videos containing allegations on YouTube. A

600
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: BBC crew that attempted to record footage of the church's

601
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: Lagos compound from a public street in March twenty twenty

602
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: two was also fired at by the church's security and

603
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: was detained for a number of hours.

604
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: Holy shit, Yeah, the state's involvement is only just in

605
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: so far, like it's just because of the bribes that

606
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: they're looking the other way or other people like in

607
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: like you know, Park, I think that's probably more than

608
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: just bribes. I would be surprised if no one was twined.

609
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: I would surprise if I'd be surprised if he wasn't

610
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: kicking other benefits to to some people, you know, right right,

611
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: I don't know that we have like a perfect context

612
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: for precisely how the relationship worked, Yeah, but it's clear

613
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: that they were.

614
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 4: Like, no, we like we like tuberculosis, Joshua.

615
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, old tuberculosis Joe. So the sheer volume of rapes

616
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: and the abortions that came with them, along with the

617
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: physical and psychological abuse of disciples, created the potential for

618
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: legal consequences. So yeah, TV Joshua, he's got to maintain

619
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: control locally through bribery. But it's also kind of worth

620
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: noting that since so many of his victims are Westerners,

621
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: there is this risk that international condemnation might erupt, right,

622
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: you know, because you can't you can't bribe every government.

623
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: That's some you've got followers on and theoretically they're going

624
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: to get concerned when they realize, like, wow, a lot

625
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: of people have left our country and live with this guy,

626
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: and seems like they've been the ones that come back

627
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: to hell. Yeah. And so how he would shield himself

628
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: from this was with the use of charities. Prior to

629
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: his death in twenty twenty one, any article about TV Joshua,

630
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: incredible outlets would note that he was controversial and they

631
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: talk about some of these allegations against him, but then

632
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: they would be like, well, he also puts a lot

633
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: of money into good causes and maybe so maybe he's

634
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: faking miracles. I think based on a lot of the

635
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: articles I read prior to this, I think how you

636
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: might have interpreted this guy prior to this BBC Open

637
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: Democracy report is he's faking a lot of miracles and

638
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: he's kind of a fraud, but he's he's committing that

639
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: fraud to get money that he then puts into really

640
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: useful charities around the world. So like, it's kind of unethical,

641
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 2: but the ends are good. Who's this? And I want

642
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: to quit? There's a segment I've got from a Daily

643
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: Mail article that's a decent example of this. Followers are

644
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: expected to give about ten percent of their paychecks, and

645
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: the payments are monitored and people are ranked and seated accordingly.

646
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: T shirts, books and frames and photos promoting Joshua are

647
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: also for sale. However, even former disciples agree that Joshua

648
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: himself does give a lot of money to charity and

649
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: in scholarships. Joshua defended his church's resources. Without material and money,

650
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to carry out so much. Huge, huge,

651
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: huge people come here for support, Joshua said, So that

652
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: kind of gives you the idea of how this is

653
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: sort of justified, and you know that's bad.

654
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: He's like, it's just like, fuck, man, this guy takes

655
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 3: like the learnings from so many predatory companies, industries, states, whatever,

656
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: like the whole thing of like how like BP is

657
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: like and that's why we're investing in like renewable blah blah.

658
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: Right, right, he's doing a chevron here, dude, what are

659
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: you talking about?

660
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 3: We're fucking the earth.

661
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: I just told you.

662
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: We just put up like seven fucking min windmills in

663
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 3: fucking Indiana.

664
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: Man, what the.

665
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: Fuck, dude, this isn't Why are you fucking with me?

666
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: Part of what's frustrating about this guy's early life is

667
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: it's such a black box. I am really curious. How

668
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: much access did this guy have to like the internet.

669
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: Did he spend a lot of time in libraries? Like

670
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: what was his studying? What was the process of Because

671
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: this is the complexity of how he kept this all

672
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: going speaks to somebody who did read really widely, right,

673
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: it'd be weird if he just came up with all

674
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: of this on his own, rather than being inspired by

675
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: other abusive organizations doing similar things.

676
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: Right, I mean you know, it's not a lot of

677
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: foreign companies operate in Nigeria, so I'm sure. Yeah, his

678
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: first interaction is seeing how Western companies operate in West Africa. Yeah,

679
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: and you know, like he probably took a couple lessons

680
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: from Royal Dutch Shell Petroleum and I was like.

681
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 4: Oh, okay, I see how y'all do? Okay, Yeah, I

682
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 4: might be to use some of that in some of

683
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: my shit.

684
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

685
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like I think it's sort of

686
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: like a game, recognized game and like a fucked up

687
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: demonic predatory life.

688
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

689
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh wow, I'll take a little bit of that.

690
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: I'll take a little bit of this.

691
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good stuff. So former Highwranking followers alleged that

692
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: this was part of a concerted plan to protect himself

693
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: by making any attack against him look like something that

694
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: would threaten money that was helping suffering people all around Africa.

695
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: So basically the question they're asking people having people ask

696
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 2: themselves is is going after TV Joshua for a little

697
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: bit of being a con artist worth hurting all of

698
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: these people? Right? How else are they going to get

699
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: the money? Right now? This didn't always work, and so

700
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: TB Joshua's first line of defense was something he cribbed

701
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: from a character in his favorite book, The Bible. On

702
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 2: his compound, he constructed what amounted to his own personal hell,

703
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: a high rise living structure that could fit hundreds of worshippers.

704
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: And again, this is where you've got these like punishment

705
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: cells where he can lock people for behaving badly. And

706
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: I want to play you with clip from that BBC

707
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: documentary with his hours talking about how these places is run.

708
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 5: There was a steming day that he used to abuse,

709
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 5: this woman said. The building of his purpastments, he designed

710
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 5: it God, the whole building was just designed to keep secret,

711
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 5: multiple doors, multiple entries and exits. The tacase you can

712
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: use to get to his five story was like four.

713
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 5: I call him, Lady properly wants to see you. He

714
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 5: would tell you the specific take is that this person

715
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 5: should come.

716
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: He would always tell you which entrance to take, which

717
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: door to get into.

718
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 5: He can ask the ladies to come try any of

719
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 5: the door so people don't see them. You would always

720
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 5: ask you when you come, did anybody see you?

721
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: You bea looser?

722
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 5: Then you grape me again.

723
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: It was a process, a very nasty cycle we cauldn't

724
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 2: see it right under our nose. He designed a system

725
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: for deceiving all of us disciples.

726
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: A lot of women were being abused by this man.

727
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: I had no idea. I thought I was the only one.

728
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that thing had happened to anybody else.

729
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: So that's pretty bad.

730
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

731
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: The guards who are running this hair in prison were

732
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: often teenagers themselves. They're said to have often been like

733
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: boys were sixteen, seventeen, fifteen years old. So they are

734
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: again both victims because they're subject to discipline and beatings themselves,

735
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 2: but they're also being used to facilitate this abusive system

736
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: and part because they're younger and easier for him to influence. Right.

737
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: One of these boys after leaving told the BBC that

738
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 2: TV Joshua usually raped four to five in each week,

739
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 2: sometimes more. Former church officials. The highest number of estimates

740
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: that you can find are like in the thousands of

741
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: victims over the years that he was doing this, So

742
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: really just like a kind of incomprehensible scale, right, Yeah,

743
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: the fact that the root of TV josh was recruiting

744
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 2: power are these miracles forced some action from Nigerian regulators. Again,

745
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 2: the Nigerian government's not a monolith. There's a huge amount

746
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: of corruption, which is how he gets away with this.

747
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: But he is constantly subject to resistance, not just in

748
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: the government but from other Pentecostal leaders in Nigeria who

749
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: don't know all of this. They don't know the extent

750
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: of what he's doing, but they.

751
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: Know that he's taking the right right, right, that he's

752
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: just a bullshit artist, and that's right.

753
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: Yes, and probably I'm sure they had some idea that

754
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: there was more going on, right, but certainly we're not

755
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: aware of like the full dimensions of it. But there

756
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: was resistance, and this kind of culminated in two thousand

757
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: and four in the Nigerian National Broadcasting Commission officially banning

758
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: the air ring of videos about of miracles that could

759
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: not be verified. Right, so you can't publish on television

760
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: unverified miracles. Now, what does it mean to verify a miracle?

761
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 4: I was going to say, say, you.

762
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:18,439
Speaker 2: Get a blue check, this is a verifying miracle. Yeah,

763
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: I don't know precisely what that would mean. I haven't

764
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: found good explanations to like what kind of process they

765
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: might have had for verifying miracles. Right, we'll get to

766
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: the primary with his works. It doesn't wind up functioning

767
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 2: to actually stop him from putting out these miracle videos.

768
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 2: It just changes the way he's going to do it, right, Oh, right,

769
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: And it's interesting I read some articles about sort of

770
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 2: the reaction of the Pentecostal community in Nigeria to this

771
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: law banning video miracles. There's not as much comprehensively like

772
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: negative reaction to it as I would have expected. The

773
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,919
Speaker 2: Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria or PFN, who had long made

774
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: it clear that they did not consider TV Joshua to

775
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 2: be a legitimate pastor, supported the ban, arguing we don't

776
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: harbor bastards in our fold, people who have failed in

777
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 2: other businesses and who see the church as a better option,

778
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: which is a respectable stance. For his part, TV Joshua

779
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: claimed in public that he was the target of the ban,

780
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: and I think this is true. I do, in fact

781
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: think he was the target of this ban. And I

782
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: should also say, all of these pastors who are supporting

783
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: the ban and who are against TV Joshua, some of

784
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: them are legitimately decent people. Some of them are just

785
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: protecting their own business interests. Right. That's also a factor here.

786
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, right right.

787
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: I found one quote from a contemporary article on the

788
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: bill attributed to a pastor, and it does seem to

789
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: be an only slightly veiled attack on TV Joshua quote.

790
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 2: According to him, the nation has reached the level where

791
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: people now have billboards with messages like comfort treatment of

792
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: all blood diseases. That is unethical, that is unhealthy, and

793
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: that is ungodly, he said, adding I think probably the

794
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: fear we have is that they shouldn't have a carpet ban.

795
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: Jesus said, we should allow the chaff to grow with

796
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: the wheat until harvest time, where God will sift the

797
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: chaff from the wheat. So this guy is being like, yeah,

798
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: it's really fucked up that they're advertising they can cure

799
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 2: your blood disease, but it's up to God. It should

800
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: be up to God to make let people know who's

801
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: legit and not, which is such a weird stance.

802
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 4: Dare you yeah, dare you yeah? That's God's department.

803
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, That's God's job. One preacher, Thomas Audu stated, as

804
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: a Christian, the Bible is the basis. I mean, we

805
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: must take cognizance of the fact that not all that

806
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: call the name of the Lord will enter the kingdom

807
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: of heaven. The devil himself has been shown to showcase

808
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: some miracles too, so we have to be careful not

809
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: to be carried away, which is a really fun way

810
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: of like threading that needle. You know that it's both

811
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: sides of it. Yeah, And I did find a very

812
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: fun quote from a guy who doesn't support the ban

813
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: that I actually un ironically agree with, although maybe not

814
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: in the way that that Reverend Henry Awonye meant it. Quote.

815
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: If they must ban miracles, they should also look into

816
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: some advertisements like alcohol, films, cigarettes, and movies that are

817
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: beyond the level of children. And yeah, I'm totally fine

818
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: with that. Let's bad adds to kids.

819
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 4: Let's do it.

820
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: That's the thing I love about people with bands. They're like, well,

821
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 3: if you ban this, you might as well ban the Bible.

822
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: Yeah right.

823
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: I don't believe in banning any particular book, but I

824
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: believe I'm fine with banning fake miracles on TV.

825
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying the way the logic always

826
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 3: eventually comes back for the thing they're trying to protect,

827
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 3: where it's like, well, then we might as well do this,

828
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: Like yeah, maybe you do. I mean, like you can

829
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: find a sense of destruction or you know, negativity and whatever.

830
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 4: You look for.

831
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what's interesting to me about

832
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 2: this is this ban is clearly crafted to stop TV

833
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: Joshua from recruiting people, but he kind of pivots. And again,

834
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: maybe the worst thing about this guy is how smart

835
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: he is. Right because one of the things he is

836
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: early on is realizing the value of social media, and

837
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: so he makes kind of a seamless pivot. He launches

838
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 2: a satellite station, a manual TV that's like a YouTube channel,

839
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 2: and so he gets over the benefit on televising. Shit.

840
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, yeah, TV is not even where it

841
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: is anymore. I'm just gonna start a fucking YouTube channel.

842
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: We'll get the videos out that way, We'll get him

843
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: out to even more fucking people. He is considered maybe, Uh,

844
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: there's definitely some expert qute in the BBC. Here's like

845
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: he was the first of these pastors in Nigeria at least,

846
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 2: and one of the first in the world to really

847
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: recognize how to use the Internet to spread this kind

848
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: of propaganda.

849
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 3: God damn it, Like, is he ever gonna fucking slip up? Uh?

850
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 2: I mean yes, but it doesn't really matter.

851
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: Yeah right right, yeah.

852
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: But it's like every single thing, it's like he but

853
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: like his instincts are just like spot on. It's like,

854
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 3: oh yeah, okay, can't I'll pivot to digital video, I'll

855
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: pivot to this.

856
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. The two thoughts you have reading about him is like,

857
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: what a monster? And also, man, this guy was fucking smart, Like, yeah,

858
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: he knows what he's doing. He's got like seamless instincts. Yeah.

859
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: So in following years, he would become one of the

860
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: first pastors in Nigeria to create a Facebook account and

861
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: again to start uploading his videos to YouTube. And I

862
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: think a manual TV starts as like a satellite TV station,

863
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: but like they start up a YouTube account very quickly,

864
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: He's putting videos on Facebook and they get to the

865
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: point where both of these accounts have millions and millions

866
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: of followers and subscribers, and this really supercharges the growth

867
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 2: of his flock to an astronomic level. By twenty fourteen,

868
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: Scone has branches in London, Greece, Ghana, South Africa, and

869
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 2: a number of other countries and millions of followers around

870
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: the world. His prominence only increased in the years since

871
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: the TV miracle ban. In twenty twelve, he was declared

872
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: one of the fifty most influential people on the entire

873
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: continent of Africa by the Africa Report. Scone became host

874
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: to powerful people from across the region. Ghana's president, Zimbabwe's

875
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: Prime minister, Nigeria's first lady and the wife of Nelson

876
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: Mandela all attended services. Big names you.

877
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, yeah, I've heard of them.

878
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard of them. So many Pentecostal pastors in

879
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: Nigeria and elsewhere, or like many Pentecostal pastors not just

880
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: in Nigeria but in the United States. He sold prayer

881
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: cloths and holy water to followers. He claimed that the

882
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: water itself was treatment for a number of illnesses, and

883
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: as usual, he primed worshippers with videos of people cured

884
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: of AIDS and other endemic illnesses with his holy water,

885
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 2: and then he started hawking it to crowds of people

886
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: at churches in Ghana, Sierra Leone and elsewhere in a

887
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: West Africa. Here's one worshiper testimonial on the power of

888
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 2: this anointing water. I myself have bought the anointing water

889
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: and I have seen the miracles it performs. My father

890
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 2: was suffering from pain in his leg when I sprayed

891
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: the water, and after praying, the pain went away. So

892
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: that's good. This guy continued, It's like in Jesus's time,

893
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: he did a lot of miracles, so a lot of

894
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 2: people followed him. Now we see that God can manifest

895
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: again when people come to the church if they pray

896
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: and they believe, they are healed. And I might say, like,

897
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 2: I don't think Jesus charged anybody, Like I don't tend

898
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: to believe in supernatural hearing. But at least my recollection

899
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: of the Bible from when I was a Christian is

900
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 2: he was not charging people.

901
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: No, that was kind of the whole thing. It was like,

902
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: here's just I mean, for lack of a better word,

903
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: he's hooking people up, you know, yeah, just because.

904
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: Striking things attached to his phone that starts asking you

905
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: for tips.

906
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: He's like, all right, what's going on? What's his dude's name, Lazarus?

907
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 3: Hold on what y'all want?

908
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 4: Oh? Hold on, hold on, man, he's gonna.

909
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: Sell me that paper table taped over the stigmadel hole

910
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: in his hand. That's got a venmo qr codes.

911
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 4: The stigmata is a QR code.

912
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: The stigmata is Yeah, just scan this nail.

913
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: Size hole right there.

914
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 4: Uh huh, there you go.

915
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I can get your boy las up real quick.

916
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 4: You know what I mean. But that's just gonna look

917
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 4: like five. That's like five rex all right.

918
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: So, like any good business man, TV Joshua knew that

919
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 2: both hype and scarcity were critical for driving up demand,

920
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: but those two factors also have a tendency to make

921
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: people crazy, and in Ghana this resulted in a massive stampede.

922
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 2: I'm gonna quote from an article in The Guardian. Here

923
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: the worshippers were hoping to obtain Holy New anointing water,

924
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: which a manual TV had announced would be distributed for free.

925
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 2: The anointing water usually costs eighty seti's, but we learned

926
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 2: on Sunday that it would be given out for free.

927
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 2: Said Joseph Adenvoor fifty two, who witnessed the fatal stampede.

928
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: I have never seen anything like it before. People had

929
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: come from Togo, been in and even from Kenya. They

930
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: tried to close the church, but people were climbing over

931
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: the walls and breaking in. The police and army were there,

932
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: but they couldn't control the crowds. The police who are

933
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: investigating the deaths so that they had not anticipated the

934
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 2: number of people who would attend the church and worshipers

935
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: arriving with as early as two am. All of us

936
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: were caught by surprise. Police spokesman Freemonteta told the BBC

937
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: World Service, no one knew the crowd will be so huge.

938
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: Four people died and more than thirty were injured. So

939
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: you know, good, I get stuff now.

940
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: In this one, he took a lesson out of like

941
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: hype beast, like Black Friday, doorbuster sale culture.

942
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: Right yes. And in fact, a few weeks before this,

943
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: he made an unannounced appearance in the capital of Ghana,

944
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: which shut the city down for a full day because

945
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: he was selling stickers for cars that he promised if

946
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: you put these stickers on your cars, they'll free you

947
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: from poverty. And it caused such a stampede that it

948
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: like shuts the whole city because he doesn't warn authorities,

949
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: you know, right, Yeah, It's like it's like if the

950
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 2: president started showing up in cities with his motorcade and

951
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: like no, no warning was given to like local police,

952
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 2: so you're just it would, it would be even I

953
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: mean it's already pretty bad. If you've ever been in

954
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 2: a city when the.

955
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: President's like, yeah, man, we can we'll forgive your debt. First,

956
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: fifty people here forgiven your debt.

957
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll give you.

958
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 2: I'll give you like a passport too. How far away

959
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: could we possibly be from that?

960
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 4: Yes?

961
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 3: Oh god, God, I don't want to think about I

962
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 3: don't want to think that too far.

963
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 4: In the future.

964
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good. Let's just stick to twenty fourteen,

965
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: when in a Bola outbreak ravage sections of West Africa,

966
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: and government officials had to go to TV Joshua not

967
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 2: for help treating the disease, obviously, but because they needed

968
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: to tell him to tell his followers from other West

969
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: African countries don't go to Lagos for healing right now. Right,

970
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: They're being like, look, man, we know the benefit, like

971
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: the deals you have do not like, we cannot encourage

972
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: any religious tourism right now because that's just gonna spread

973
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: a Bola to the fucking capital, right Yeah. And I

974
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 2: will say TV Joshua was a rational and a person

975
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: to be like, well, yeah, that's probably not good for anybody.

976
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 2: That's probably gonna be bad for me if that.

977
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like, I'm gonna be at the Prime Minister's

978
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 3: house tomorrow hooking people up.

979
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 2: Come through. He does cancel a bunch of upcoming healing sessions,

980
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: which is the minimum he could have done, but he

981
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: also sends four thousand bottles of anointing water to Sierra

982
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 2: Leone with a claim that it would cure anyone suffering

983
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: from a bola. The water was flown in on a

984
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: private jet that cost as much to make the trip

985
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: as the cash donation TV Joshua's church made to buy

986
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: food for victims of a Bola from an article in

987
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: The Independent Quote. The preacher's TV channel, Emmanual dot TV

988
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 2: showed video of a man called Joe Faya Numa, who

989
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: claims to represent Sierra Leone's High Commission, accepting the donation.

990
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: Numa says on the video that the water will be

991
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: used to curb the deadly Ebola yoke that is about

992
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: to destroy our nation. So that's good. You love spreading

993
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: disinformation about fucking Abola?

994
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah, and turn it into a little bit

995
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 3: of marketing.

996
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit of marketing. Now, miles, you know

997
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: who can cure your abola. The only people who can

998
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: cure your abola the good folks at who make Yeah,

999
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: so uh, you know, purchase it.

1000
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 4: We're back.

1001
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,959
Speaker 2: Like all true prophets, TV Joshua made numerous predictions about

1002
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,959
Speaker 2: the future with perfect accuracy, at least according to him.

1003
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: One of his chief claims to fame was correctly anticipating

1004
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 2: the maybe not so tragic in retrospect death of Michael Jackson.

1005
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: Starting in January two thousand and nine, he told his

1006
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: followers to expect the death of a great star when

1007
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 2: the King of Pop died a mere six months later,

1008
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 2: he told everyone that's who I was referring to all along.

1009
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 2: And this is a he does this a lot.

1010
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 3: This.

1011
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: This is one of the more fun bits of TV

1012
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: Joshua lore, like Bob of.

1013
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 3: Wanga type shit, where it's yeah, like, oh, you're in there.

1014
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 3: We got something coming this year, right, Yeah.

1015
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: In January twenty thirteen, he told followers, I am seeing

1016
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: flame in America. Just a quarter of a year later,

1017
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: the Boston Marathon was bombed. And although that didn't really

1018
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: involve a tremendous amount of flame, yeah, I think it

1019
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: was more of just like a brief explosion in trapnel

1020
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 2: but like whatever, he claims victory again, right, I might

1021
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: also say like three months later, four months later, Like

1022
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: if you're saying, I think America is going to be

1023
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 2: subject to a deadly attack that happens like every week

1024
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: or so.

1025
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:31,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, one way to be fair.

1026
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even flame like at the rate of forest fires,

1027
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 3: Like you're lucky to you know, get at least a

1028
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 3: couple of year, you can claim.

1029
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you claim some sort of attack or a

1030
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 2: deadly thing is going to hit a bunch of Americans,

1031
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: you know, three months ahead of time, something will happen, right.

1032
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: There's their own health care system.

1033
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 2: There will be a crash, you know whatever. Yeah. Critics

1034
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 2: claim that there's not even any evidence that he made

1035
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 2: the prediction in January, just a video published months later

1036
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: that Scone claimed had been recorded in January, so who knows.

1037
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: That same year, he predicted an attack in France, telling

1038
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: the people of the country that they should pray against

1039
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 2: suicide bombers or any attack of any kind that will

1040
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 2: affect many. Two years later, Isis militants carry out a

1041
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: series of attacks on the Botoclon nightclub in areas around

1042
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: it in Paris, killing like one hundred something people. And

1043
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: he's like, this is what I was referring to two

1044
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 2: years previously ago. Just like yeah, like, France is a

1045
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 2: big country. If you're like, sometime in the next two years,

1046
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: a bad thing will happen in France, it will.

1047
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's probability at that point.

1048
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 3: But hey, he's you know, he's seeing things he is

1049
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 3: as an intermediary.

1050
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: One of his few fuck ups is in twenty sixteen,

1051
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: he calls the US presidential election for Hillary Clinton. Now, ah, man,

1052
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: I know what you're saying, Miles, I'm pretty sure Hillary

1053
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: Clinton did not in fact win the twenty.

1054
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 4: Sixteen Hillary one. Hillary won, the election was stolen.

1055
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you are a big Hillary truther. Scoon had a

1056
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: response to that when people were like, it seems like

1057
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 2: he was wrong about this. And this comes from the

1058
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: Nigerian magazine Punch. TV Joshua has set his prophecy on

1059
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: US election was not off the mark. He added that

1060
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: people need spiritual understanding to be able to interpret it.

1061
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: During a service at the headquarters of his church at Ikuotun,

1062
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: Lagos and Sunday, Prophet TV Joshua said there was nothing

1063
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: controversial about the prophecy. It is human beings that are controversial.

1064
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: He stated that his words were misinterpreted because we're not

1065
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: on the same level of spiritual understanding, an explanation which

1066
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 2: drew Applaus from Sky. Literally he's like, Oh, you just

1067
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 2: don't get how right I was because I'm built different. Baby.

1068
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's on you.

1069
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I can't.

1070
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 3: I can't get you up to this level you Yeah,

1071
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 3: or just kind of like the dude from Big Lebowski's like, yeah,

1072
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 3: that's just like your opinion, man.

1073
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, God, that's good. That's just that's just quality

1074
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 2: shit right there, Miles.

1075
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's shiitthousery to the maximum right there.

1076
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,959
Speaker 2: Now. By far, TV Joshua's favorite use of his gift

1077
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: of prophecy was to engage in his by now well

1078
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 2: established tradition of fucking with Ghana for absolutely no reason.

1079
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 2: That same year, twenty sixteen, he proticts a massive terrorist

1080
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: attack in Ghana, which provokes widespread panic among people in

1081
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: Ghana and like the police and security surface services have

1082
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 2: to keep issuing assurance as being like, we have no

1083
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: evidence that anything is wrong. Police, don't panic that you're

1084
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 2: about to die because of what the I don't even

1085
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: there's not even a I think the only reason is

1086
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 2: that he's like, well, you know, probably there will be

1087
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: some sort of terrorist attack in Ghana at some point,

1088
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 2: like most countries have them occasionally. So if I just

1089
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 2: call one now, eventually, I'll be right and I can

1090
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: add this to my list of correct prophecies. Who gives

1091
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: a shit if it causes a panic in the short term, right.

1092
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

1093
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. He made a similar prophecy later in twenty sixteen,

1094
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: warning that South Africa's Orlando Stadium would be the site

1095
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: of a massive terrorist attack during an upcoming rap concert.

1096
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 2: Didicted twelve thousand deaths from this attack. Nothing that's your called.

1097
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: I think he was getting He's kind of he's getting

1098
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: sloppy at this point. That's what the hell would they

1099
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 2: do that?

1100
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, come on, babe, Ruth, Yeah, you're not them all.

1101
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 2: What would the what what weapon would even cause a

1102
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: death toll like that? That's four nine elevens right? How?

1103
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 3: And like, what's the capacity of that stadium? He's basically

1104
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: saying like a third of it or whatever? How many people?

1105
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: Like, it's a big stadium, you could certainly hold more

1106
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: people than that, But how would you kill everyone in

1107
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 2: the stadium? Yeah, and right, like why a rap vocal

1108
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: haram isis neither of them have access to that kind

1109
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: of weaponry.

1110
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 3: Wait, but what's the like he said a rap concert?

1111
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: Like was that meant to be? Like a specific artist?

1112
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: There was a rap concert right right?

1113
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 4: Right?

1114
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm not enoe of an expert

1115
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: on like the dynamics of the rap industry in Nigeria

1116
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: and how it relates to the evangelical movement to know

1117
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: if there was more going on?

1118
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: Right, well, this is South Africa. Maybe he wasn't a

1119
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: fan of deantword.

1120
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe who could blame him for that? We all

1121
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: saw that fucking movie?

1122
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 4: Right, no, no, no.

1123
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 2: Good god?

1124
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 3: Was it?

1125
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: Chappy? My god? That's the real crime making champy?

1126
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 4: Why why did they allow them in here?

1127
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 3: Also, he's like the guy's a monster and the girls

1128
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: a Nepo baby.

1129
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 4: Apparently I ain't hip hop.

1130
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,800
Speaker 2: I haven't kept up with Dean Twards since that movie.

1131
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: Why William?

1132
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 3: I think I think you you may be able to

1133
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 3: do an episode on them?

1134
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: Oh good, okay, cool, that'll be fun. Yeah. So obviously

1135
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: twelve thousand people are not killed in the stadium and

1136
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 2: when nothing happens he announces that the post on his

1137
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: Facebook page predicting this had been fake news, so you

1138
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: loved it again, he keeps learning he's paying attention to Trump.

1139
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 2: At this point he's like, well, shit, I can make

1140
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: money on.

1141
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 4: This, right, my god.

1142
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: So by twenty fourteen, TV Joshua was forty nine years

1143
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: old and worth I think the estimates of his wealth

1144
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: are all fucked because they usually say ten to fifteen

1145
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 2: million dollars, but like, he has a private jet that's

1146
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: worth like sixty million dollars. He's in the Panama Papers,

1147
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: he and his wife for having incorporated a company in

1148
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: the British Virgin Islands. And like, you don't the Panama Papers.

1149
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think you're noteworthy among that

1150
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: crowd at ten to fifteen million dollars. No, that's like

1151
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: what their gardeners make. Yeah, exactly, my steriously. Yeah, your

1152
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: daughter's your gardener. Yeahah yeah, I'm gonna guess he has

1153
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 2: a lot more cash than this. But he's just smart

1154
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: about like he is about most things about like protecting.

1155
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, his presentation of it all.

1156
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he has a lot more to hide than

1157
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: just money. This kind of prison harem conflex. He built

1158
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: for this purpose, or at least one of them, because

1159
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: there are, you know, several you saw the video of that,

1160
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: several large buildings in the compound, and one of them

1161
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 2: that he plans himself, is initially four stories tall, and

1162
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: this is the height of the building that the foundations

1163
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: had been poured to support. As time went on, scone

1164
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 2: keeps growing and he's like, I want to make this

1165
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 2: building taller, so add another couple of stories to the top.

1166
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 2: There all designed them right. All the construction on the

1167
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 2: property is carried out by cult members because that saves

1168
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 2: time and money. And he's the one designing the building

1169
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 2: himself and basically bribing the governments and architects to ignore that,

1170
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: like nothing is being done up to spec and this

1171
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 2: becomes a problem. Miles. I don't know if you're aware

1172
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: of this, but if you add more stories to a

1173
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: building that it's meant to support, that could cause some

1174
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: serious issues.

1175
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 3: Ata, No, that's just I think you're kind of like

1176
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 3: on a different level of spiritual understanding that I'm on

1177
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 3: when it comes to geometry or physics.

1178
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're a big I don't know enough about

1179
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 2: physics to make a good joke about this. So maybe

1180
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: it's fine, but it's not going to be fine. It's

1181
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: got to kill a lot of people.

1182
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 3: You know who else they said, couldn't keep adding stories.

1183
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ.

1184
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. And then we got the Book of Revelations.

1185
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 3: Praise to now scan my stigmanor.

1186
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: For someation. So as Ray related quote, he just kind

1187
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 2: of kept pushing and saying, I want it higher. It

1188
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: must go higher, it must go higher. So that's that's great.

1189
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: This is not going to end well, miles hot.

1190
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 3: Wait, so what was it built for and what are

1191
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 3: the building?

1192
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 5: Ends?

1193
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: Were stories? And it winds up being six So they've

1194
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 2: got like fifty percent more weight on that foundation than

1195
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: it should have, and one has to assume other corners

1196
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: are being cut to. People were aware from a fairly

1197
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: early period that the building is not safe. It would sway,

1198
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: like you could see and feel it swaying in heavy wind.

1199
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 2: Followers reported that the staircases and the building around the

1200
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: staircases would wobble when you went up, which is a

1201
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: bad sign on something.

1202
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 4: You've ever been on a wobbly staircase?

1203
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 2: No, now, fuck that shit. I mean maybe if I was.

1204
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 3: Like tripping or something, maybe I've been on a few while,

1205
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 3: but like never in my right frame of mind.

1206
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, firmly in reality. No, yeah, it's you. You

1207
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: would not want to be in a building like this.

1208
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: On September twelfth, twenty fourteen, one of TV Joshua's disciples

1209
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: warned him that the structure of the building was showing

1210
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: imminent signs of failure. He ignored the warning and ordered

1211
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 2: two hundred foreign visitors, mostly South Africans, into the ground

1212
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 2: floor dining room so that they could eat lunch. Two

1213
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 2: hours later, the building collapsed, and the video of this

1214
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 2: like it looks like you know, if you've seen like

1215
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: nine to eleven footage, it's like that kind of collapse.

1216
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: It just is, it's there and it goes down and

1217
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: it's like pancakes on It's just like, yeah, it pancakes.

1218
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: You know.

1219
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 2: If you remember back in Florida, there was that condo

1220
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: building a few years back, it looked a lot like

1221
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 2: that where it's just down. Dozens, perhaps more than one hundred,

1222
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: were killed instantly. More than eight hundred people are also

1223
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 2: trapped inside. These numbers are really vague. We have no

1224
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 2: idea how many people were in the building when it collapsed,

1225
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 2: or how many died. Really because first responders are blocked

1226
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: from entering the compound itself for twenty four four hours,

1227
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: right what he attempts to have his own people carry

1228
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 2: out the rescue efforts and blocks the government from entering.

1229
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

1230
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. From one report quote, some church workers attempted to

1231
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: save lives in reckless and amateur ways without the use

1232
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 2: of mechanical equipment or medical training. They use tools from

1233
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 2: the church's maintenance department. In one instance, a church worker

1234
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 2: allegedly used a chainsaw to amputate the leg of a

1235
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: man who was trapped under a fallen beam. He was screaming,

1236
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 2: says a manual visually shaken during his interview. He is

1237
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 2: not sure if the man survived. I saw a lot

1238
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 2: of things that really traumatized me. Faces were crushed, says Michael,

1239
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: a disciple who was in his late teens at the time.

1240
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: Followers have since told reporters that they were told during

1241
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: this like twenty four hour period where he's kept the

1242
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: authorities out, that some of his followers are ordered to

1243
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: drive vanloads full of corpses out of the compound to

1244
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: be buried in secret. What we can verify is a

1245
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 2: death toll of at least one hundred and sixteen.

1246
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 4: Sh what can be fair ify?

1247
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, almost certainly more than that. How much more

1248
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,439
Speaker 2: is unclear, but like that's a lot, you know, that's

1249
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 2: all out on its own, a really bad disaster, you know.

1250
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 3: Right, and especially when you have to add the caveat

1251
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 3: where it's like, look, these are the ones we can

1252
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 3: confirm because we've also heard that they were absconding with

1253
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 3: corpses in that night.

1254
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were driving vans of dead people away to

1255
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: god knows where. A coroner's inquest found that the church

1256
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 2: was culpable for criminal negligence and recommended that TB. Joshua

1257
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: will be personally charged. But once again he bribed local

1258
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: officials and reporters and nothing was done to placate his

1259
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: own followers. TB. Joshua turned towards the well worn authoritarian

1260
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: tactic of spreading conspiracy theories, and I mentioned in episode

1261
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: one he was generally better on like not being racist

1262
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 2: against Muslims than most Pentecostal preachers in Nigeria are kind

1263
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: of known to be. This is where he turns on that,

1264
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: because he decides the best way to try to put

1265
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 2: this away is to claim that Boko Haram had carried

1266
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 2: out a terrorist tack to destroy the building. It wasn't

1267
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 2: that he ordered them to make it in a way

1268
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: that was unsafe. And he even he has his people

1269
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 2: edit together a loose change style documentary that claim to

1270
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 2: show either Nigerian government or terrorist Boco Horam jets flying

1271
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 2: over the complex before the structure failed.

1272
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 3: No, yeah, they're doing like he doesn't Alex Jones, and

1273
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 3: they're they're putting like it was doctored footage or that's

1274
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 3: what they're just saying, like they have a count I.

1275
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,439
Speaker 2: Have seen clips from this documentary and it doesn't even

1276
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 2: sound or look like there's like there's a plane in

1277
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 2: the air, but like it's the capital of Nigeria. There's

1278
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 2: always planes in the air. There's certainly it doesn't show

1279
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 2: a jet fighter bombing this.

1280
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: Building, right, And I'm sorry, that's a Boco Haram fighter jet.

1281
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that really think Boco Haram have fighter jets.

1282
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure they've got some like planes like prop planes

1283
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: and shit, you know, they're not a tidy organization. But

1284
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 2: I don't think there of carrying out an aerial bombing

1285
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: on the capital of Lagos. I think that's beyond Boko

1286
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 2: Haram's capacity.

1287
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, yeah, the Nigerian government may have

1288
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: something to say to if that actually happened.

1289
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the Nigerian government probably say something like

1290
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 2: Boko Haram did care. I believe they carried an attack

1291
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 2: on like a mall in Nigeria around this period, and

1292
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 2: it was not like hushed up. It was a pretty

1293
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 2: big deal. Yeah, Jesus, So it works well enough. TB.

1294
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 2: Joshua continues to preach and Scone continues to rake in

1295
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: money for another seven years. He would likely still be

1296
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 2: making money to this day. But on June fifth, twenty

1297
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 2: twenty one, right after carrying out a life broadcast, TB.

1298
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 2: Joshua dropped dead. He was fifty seven years old. His

1299
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: wife claims that he had shown no signs of illness previously,

1300
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: but like that doesn't mean anything. These people are all liars,

1301
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, maybe he had cancer, maybe he had

1302
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 2: like a hard condition, who knows. I don't. It's not

1303
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 2: clear to me that we will ever know precisely, but

1304
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 2: thankfully he's fucking dead.

1305
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. The one thing we know is that it wasn't karma,

1306
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 4: because the case of these.

1307
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely not karma because he never really pays

1308
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: the price. I guess you could say he died earlier

1309
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 2: than is normal for a man of his level of wealth,

1310
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: but not early enough that I'm like good, you know, yeah, yeah,

1311
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 2: I mean, it's good that he's dead, but it took

1312
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 2: God took a sweet time on this one. He has

1313
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: a massive funeral, obviously well attended by local celebrities and politicians.

1314
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 2: An enormous crowd marches his coffin through the streets. His wife, Evelyn,

1315
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 2: has taken over scone and his wake. I think it's

1316
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 2: probably suffered without him, as he never left a clear successor.

1317
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 2: And I think the general consensus from people who know

1318
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 2: more about Pentecostals in Nigeria than I do is that

1319
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 2: he's probably The church is probably slowly on its way

1320
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 2: to fading into irrelevance, but you know, it's still around.

1321
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 2: And yeah, TB. Joshua never really brought to justice for

1322
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 2: his crimes, so that's cool. Maybe something will happen to

1323
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 2: Evelyn now that some of this stuff is come out,

1324
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: But I don't have a ton of faith in it

1325
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: in that No, No.

1326
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Seldom the bad guys seem.

1327
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 4: To win a lot, yes, yeah, a weird way. But

1328
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 4: who knows, Maybe maybe that'll change, Maybe that'll change.

1329
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 2: Maybe that. Yeah, maybe we'll finally get a handle on

1330
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 2: the human race this year. Maybe this will be the one,

1331
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 2: you know.

1332
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're starting not strong, this is Yes, it's

1333
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 3: been a good year so far.

1334
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like everyone's doing really well. Speaking of

1335
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 2: doing well, Miles, why don't you do well by directing

1336
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: our listeners towards your pluggables.

1337
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much again for listening to me

1338
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 3: right now. And I will I will count on your

1339
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 3: continued support with my miss my missionary my mission church

1340
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 3: evangelicalism podcast called The Daily Zeitgeist. It's about news, politics, comedy,

1341
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Speaker 3: and and just a little bit of good old christ

1342
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 3: talk too. Uh So checking that every day. Uh and

1343
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 3: also check out Silvermiles dot net where you can pick

1344
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 3: up some of my blessed vials of colloidal silver.

1345
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 4: Uh and you can.

1346
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 3: It cures honestly everything, like I don't even have to

1347
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 3: tell you because it literally heres.

1348
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1349
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll get better at like fucking video games. It's

1350
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 3: not really for health. I should say that, it's not

1351
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 3: for health. It's like more like stuff to be cooler.

1352
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 2: So okay, Wow, that's very responsible, Miles.

1353
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll make you a better freestyle wrapper. Yeah, graffiti,

1354
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 3: it does it all, it doesn't all.

1355
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm gonna go ahead and say it'll cure

1356
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 2: your syphilis. So don't go to the doctor if you

1357
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 2: get syphilist because silver Miles dot Net. Anyway, Sophie, Uh,

1358
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 2: we're not still sponsored by the by Big Syphilis, are we?

1359
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 2: All right now big s Yeah? All right, then avoid

1360
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: catching syphilis until they pay us.

1361
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production a cool Zone. Need

1362
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: for more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1363
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1364
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.