WEBVTT - Proof of Innocence 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 If you will place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.920 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.440 and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.840 defendant guilty of the prime It makes no sense, it 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.639 doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.239 all took the same of of office. We're all bound 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.480 by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.480 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.640 to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:52.479 this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway, m d N. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.640 A kind of changed everything. It was the game changer 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.600 because for the first time in history we had really 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.480 definitive proof of innocence, although I'm gonna say the second 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.679 time in history. I always tell my students DNA cases 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.080 aren't the best cases. The best cases are murder cases 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.759 where the victim shows up alive later on, and there's 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.240 there's been ten of those documented in history of the 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.040 United States. But short of the victims showing up alive 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.800 and DNA cases, it gets very difficult to win these cases. 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.240 But here's what I've seen happen over the last twenty 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.480 years is DNA opened the door to make believers out 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.920 of judges that hey, innocent people are falling through the cracks. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.760 Let's face it, Exoneration cases in the United States aren't 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:53.560 exactly commonplace. According to the United States Department of Justice, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.919 there were just under one and a half million people 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.560 in prison by the end of two thousand eighteen, but 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.360 as of May, there have only been two thousand, six 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.560 hundred exonerations, and a lot of those exonerations have happened 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.800 very recently. This is because of things like advancement in 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.400 DNA and other technology. DNA has been a very helpful 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.360 tool in providing evidence of innocence for wrongly incarcerated people. 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.919 But as the California Innocence Project director Justin Brooks said 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.440 at the beginning, DNA has done more than simply providing evidence. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.359 It's opened the door to the idea that people are 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.680 in fact in jail for crimes that they did not commit. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.760 Judges eyes are now more open, Judges are now more 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.960 willing to consider that wrongful evidence is real, and to 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.000 hear wrongful conviction cases even if there is not DNA 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:59.639 evidence to clear them. Here's Amelia Maxfield, forensic science specialists 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:05.360 for the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. Before there was DNA evidence, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.799 no one even believes that the system got it wrong 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.520 or could get it wrong. So it's definitely been the 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.200 catalyst for many exonerations and for kind of the innocence 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.320 movement as a whole. If there's any way for us 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.800 to go back and test evidence it was found at 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.799 the crime scene to try to identify the true perpetrator, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.320 will do that. That's kind of the easiest, removes straightforward 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.799 way to get back into court if you have new 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.200 evidence of an alternate perpetrator from a DNA analysis. Even 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.520 though courts today are more likely than ever before to 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.720 hear claims of actual innocence, there are still a lot 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.880 of roadblocks along the way, especially in the way that 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:50.200 evidence is tested and stored when that evidence might contain 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.600 d N A. There's the first hurdle of even getting 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.080 access to the evidence. Evidence is kept in the custody 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.320 of the state. It may or may not have been 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.760 stored properly. It may or may not have been retained 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:06.200 at all. There was a widespread evidence destruction order issued 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.400 in the city of Philadelphia twenty years ago because there 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.560 was like a maggot infestation of evidence. Years worth of 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:19.000 potentially exculpatory DNA evidence was just destroyed because it wasn't 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.040 properly stored. We've had some counties where we've gone to 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.479 look for evidence it was just stored in the courthouse basement, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.400 and then there was a flood, and then the evidence 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.279 is gone. And then there's a second hurdle of getting 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.200 access to testing. You have to get an order from 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.080 the court, and different states have different standards in order 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.760 to be eligible for DNA testing. A reasonable DA who 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.600 has a post conviction case from the eighties or nineties 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.360 where DNA testing was never done and the evidence still exists, 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.360 many of them will take the tact that we think 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.279 they should, which is, you know, we have the evidence, 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.839 why not just test it and it'll either confirmed the 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.320 conviction was right, or it'll show that the conviction was wrong, 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.000 and then we'll go from there. It's just fair and 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.280 just to test the evidence. Then you have the cost barrier, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.280 so DNA testing is extremely expensive. Even simple DNA testing 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.440 runs you in the multiple thousands of dollars. Most states 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.440 have statutes written in such a way that the state 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.960 will pay for DNA testing either if you meet a 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.359 certain higher legal standard or if you agree for the 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.200 testing to be done at the state's lab. We just 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.440 don't trust some of the state labs, or they don't 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.160 have the capacity to do the testing that we want. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.640 They don't have the technology we need. We're often looking 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.599 for small amounts of touch DNA found on specific items 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.640 and they don't have the ability to do that type 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.480 of testing. Getting the evidence in front of the court 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.560 and having them understand what it means and agree that 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.000 it is exculpatory is kind of the final hurdle. It's 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.480 amazing how many times when you have a rape and 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.760 murder case and you finally test the DNA and it 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.919 exonerates your client. It's not his DNA, it's someone else's DNA. 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.120 Then all of a sudden, for the first time, the 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.080 state comes back with the theory that there was a 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.040 second person there, that your client is still involved in 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.239 the murder, but a second person also raped the victim, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.360 and that's never been a theory before. Amelia says, they 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:16.480 haven't actually had that many successful DNA exonerations. In fact, 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.960 it's been the minority of the Pennsylvania Innocence Projects exoneration cases. 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.640 Most of our clients have been exonerated based on new 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.039 evidence in the form of new witnesses coming forward, or 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.880 witnesses were chanting their testimony, or you know, finding something 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.440 in the homicide file, or ineffective assistance of trial counsel. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.560 We also try to get new opinions based on modern 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.120 science in cases where a forensic science was used that 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.320 may be outdated, if we can get an analyst who's 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.839 been properly trained to look at a discipline and tell 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.000 us whether what was done was valid or not. There's 0:06:55.040 --> 0:07:00.520 something like two thousand exonerations total, and only three hundred 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.520 of those involved DNA. There was a whole bunch of 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:10.240 people in Texas whose convictions were overturned because there was 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.600 misconduct by a specific officer involved in their case. So 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:18.000 those are all exonerations, but they're not DNA generations. A 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.240 friend of mine, Michelle Tiegel, is a criminal lawyer who 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.160 works in Texas. Michelle has lots of experience working in 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.800 both small towns and big cities, and I asked her 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.440 about some of the issues that she sees in her 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.320 post conviction practice. You would think it's just, oh, well, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.680 we know this is now faulty science, so we're just 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:40.840 going to get him out. But there's so much more 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.280 to it than that, and our systems are procedural beasts. 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.880 Oftentimes lawyers have to really put their heads together and 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.840 then often really try and convince prosecutors to work with 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.120 them and trying to find a way to remedy and 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.480 fix what has happened. Meaning you know that someone's been 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.800 wrongfully convicted on faulty science. But Michelle says that even 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.800 if you do get a prosecutor to play ball, there 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.040 are still a lot of challenges. In Texas, there are 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.640 certain timelines that you have, and then there are of 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.240 course different issues that you can file what's called a 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.679 writ to basically get your case back before the trial 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.200 quarter back before one of the higher courts in that 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.560 jurisdiction based on new evidence or new science. But then 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.440 there are all these procedural what I would call hurdles. 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.880 You have to get a certain standard of evidence or 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.400 a certain type of testimony or a certain type of testing, 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.120 and then it has to be presented to the right 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.840 you know, decision maker, whatever court that may be in 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.680 that jurisdiction, and then those decisions are never moved and 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:53.720 usually made quickly. There's often tons of briefing and paperwork 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.199 that comes behind that to convince whoever the decision maker 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.680 is that this is accurate, and you have to get 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:04.000 x often to back that up experts that normally would 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.280 not be cheap, but that you're often begging to work 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.800 for free to try to help free someone who was 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.120 convicted on faulty science. And it's it's kind of begging 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.840 all the way down the line, is what post conviction 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.560 lawyers have to do. I mean, I commend them for it, 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.320 because it is often thankless work and they spend years 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.320 on it. I was involved in a capital murder case 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.760 years ago, a man named Ed Graff who was originally convicted, 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.400 and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, which is the 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:37.560 highest criminal appellate court in Texas, reversed his conviction, but 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.200 they remanded it. And what that means is is that 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.720 they just sent it back to the trial court. They 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.720 didn't say he was innocent, they did not exonerate him, 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.520 but they said the science was bad. But we're gonna 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.360 send this case back to either be resolved by the 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.920 d a's office through a plea bargain or tried to 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.880 a jury. And we ultimately tried that case to a 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.040 jury with all new science, different experts, and you know, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.120 there were a lot of witnesses, of course from a 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.800 nineteen eighty capital murder case that we're no longer alive, 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.680 and that became a tricky thing. What we wanted them 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.280 to do, what we would have rather them done in 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.320 that case, was just to exonerate our client, but they 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.320 instead reversed the conviction and said, we're not actually going 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.679 to call him actually innocent. We're going to say that 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.680 there was a flaw in this science and a problem 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:32.760 and we know that now, and so we're going to 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.160 send the rest back to be heard by jury or 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.240 decided by the d A. Michelle says, the jury deliberated 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.280 for about two whole days. When a jury's out a while, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.760 you start, especially as a defense lawyer, thanking somebody in 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.640 there's fighting for my client. They're not just willing to, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.720 you know, say guilty and let's send him away for life. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.400 We hadn't really had many conversations or plea bargain negotiations 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.640 because we we believed our client was innocent. During the 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.760 course of the jury being out for two days, we 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.800 started having some of those conversations and and as a 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.120 criminal defense lawyer, anytime an offer is communicated, whether you 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.080 want your client to take it or not, you have 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.880 to communicate it. That's not something that's negotiable or that 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.720 we have discretion on. We also started looking at the 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.240 parole laws because this was a man who had already 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.720 served over twenty years in a Texas prison for the 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:33.800 conviction that had been obtained in the nineteen eighties. We 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.840 determined that if he pled guilty to anything less than 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.600 a life sentence, based on old parole laws, he would 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.800 immediately be released, meaning the d A, the judge, the 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.400 Texas Department of Criminal Justice, they would have no control. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.880 It was a mandatory release on anything less than a 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.760 life sentence. Because of the time he had already served. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.840 He ended up taking a plea bargain offer of less 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.720 than a life sentence. He pled guilty while the jury 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.000 was still out, so we didn't get a verdict. The 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.679 d a's office actually and this ended up being kind 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.920 of a little bit of a Snapho, but the d 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.160 a's office in McLennan County did not know about that 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.040 parole law and immediately went to the media and said 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.480 that they would contest him ever being released and he 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.800 wouldn't get out on parole, and we kind of just 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.400 left it at that. Eventually, the media and everyone caught 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.880 onto it, and what I said was and I got 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.640 some you know, it wasn't a popular thing to say, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.520 but I stand by it. Is. My job is to 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.319 explain a lot of my client. The d a's job 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.440 is to know the law himself or herself. It's not 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.960 my job to explain it to them. And unfortunately they 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.280 didn't know the law in that situation. And so my 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.080 client is out now and I'm glad for that because 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.040 I think he should be personally. But that was kind 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.920 of a I guess you could say a technical procedural 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:21.760 when for that man m M. I think there's this 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:26.000 misconception from television shows that make the news that DNA 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.280 is some sort of a magic bullet for the criminal 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.120 justice system. DNA has been and continues to be a 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.000 fantastic tool. It's used to get to the bottom of 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.280 the question of who committed a crime, but there are 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.560 many cases or situations where DNA evidence might not be 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.920 available or even applicable. For the rest of the episode, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.679 we're going to play for you parts of the interviews 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:55.160 with the four exonorees we spoke to about their exoneration 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.959 processes and their release from prison. Although these are four 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.680 or unique individual cases, they are all very difficult experiences, 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.880 and there are some commonalities across the board, including the 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.440 amount of time and effort that it took to prove 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.920 their innocence, the challenges they faced in rejoining society, and 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:21.320 the continued effects of their time in prison. Here's William Dillon, 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.960 the exonoree we spoke with in the episode on Scent Dogs. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.600 When I got out, I was despaired with the fact 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.440 that they hadn't caught who actually committed the crime. And 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.120 that's what really bothered me more than anything. Some people saying, oh, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.040 you're free now here is great, and then some people 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.000 look at well, this guy could be a massive mascular 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.520 and all that it was bothering me internally in my heart. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.480 And when they finally came through and got the DNA 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.119 on this guy and then a confession to this guy, 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.160 and I ended up getting compensated and everything. I felt 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.440 a lot better through the process. I was able to heal. 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.400 I feel that that's helped me a lot. In the 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:07.360 journey forward. You may recall that William was arrested for 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.240 a murder when he offered to help with the police investigation. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.880 After being subject to intense interrogation, irresponsible use of a 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:22.120 forensic dog, and faulty eyewitness testimony, William served twenty seven 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.640 years of a life sentence for a crime he did 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.200 not commit. When I was indicted for murder, there was 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.200 an anonymous phone call by a woman that said you 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.720 have the wrong person. That these two guys were the 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.040 ones involved in the crime. At that same time, the 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.120 chief investigator was the one that came to get me 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.400 from the car. He just wrote it down in the 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.280 file and didn't look into it well. It ended up 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.560 being thirty years later that those two guys were the 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.000 ones that were involved in the crime, as well as 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.200 two other juveniles. They did DNA on a shirt that 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.320 gets the killer left in the truck of the man 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.320 that was supposed to identify me that night, which my 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.920 lawyer was gonna have me try on at the trial. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.280 It's a good thing I didn't. The one whose DNA 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.960 they got on the shirt, he denied any involvement. He 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.880 was in Chicago. DNA was taken thirty years later for 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.760 domestic violence. He was seventeen at the time of the murder. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.600 The second guy had been living on the streets, and 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.280 he confessed that FORUM had committed the crime. And even 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.600 then the police still tried to put me in their crew, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.280 saying wasn't dealing, there wasn't involved, And the guy that 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.320 when living on the street says, no, he was not 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:38.200 involved at all. My parents never believe I was actually 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.960 innocent of the crime. People ask me to you to 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.520 forgive them. Of course I do. When you're manipulated by 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.200 a power and a justice system that is supposed to 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.520 be the last of the line, is supposed to be 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.560 the true sense of justice, the true sense of what's 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.840 going on, at least as closest we can get it. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.040 And you know as an individual of being the one 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.120 being attacked, and you know that witnesses in your case 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.280 have been manipulated by people that are using this power 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.040 and authority. I can forgive anybody that has been manipulated. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.280 I can't forgive those that did the manipulating. I think 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.440 it really didn't matter to them about justice. I keep 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.639 saying all the time that you know, maybe it was 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.840 one or two, but in the basic senses of it 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.879 is is all of them. They were all down with 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.920 the count. Probably one or two that started the ball rolling, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.360 and then everybody just followed on end. Could have been 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.520 somebody that just trying to shine up the stars and 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.040 get another conviction down the road. Another guy gone down 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.280 the road, who cares. My life didn't matter to imperiod. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.119 They destroyed my life completely, they really did. They just 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.560 didn't know it would come back to buy them. William 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.920 says that when the day of his exoneration finally came, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:50.920 he felt at least some sense of peace. I can't 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.040 even begin to tell you that I felt like it 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.560 was being carried down those steps. It was such an 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:02.000 amazing feeling. It was gratifying more than you know, the 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:06.680 sense of being found innocent or known to be innocent, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.199 or just to be released from the hell that I 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.480 had been in. It was just a very very happy thing. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.200 But at the same time, there was huge hurtles to overcome, 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:23.640 and technology had completely changed. People had phones in their pockets, computers. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.159 When I went to prison. The phones were on the 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.159 wall and NASA had the computers. Everything was just extremely fast. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.879 Information was everywhere. It was a hurdle, but at the 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:35.679 same time I was figured it was out to me, 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.919 So I just dove into it as much as I could, 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.560 and I just took ahold of it and learned as 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.280 much as I could as fast as I could information wise, 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.360 And it's not that complicated. You have to really get 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.600 in and want to get it. I think the biggest 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.520 hurdle for me was shopping with so many selections as perplexing. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.080 I would go look for a bar so going there 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:55.960 and to be so many choices, I'd have to walk 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.439 out because I just get this overwhelming feeling and have 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.320 to leave. A simple as that sounds, that's that was 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.400 probably the biggest dilemma that I had. The reason why 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.480 I came on here today is I want to let 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.040 your listeners know that what you see on TV is 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.200 not the real thing. That is not the criminal justice system. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.680 Those are actors acting. The real criminal justice system is 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.320 a horrific place, and it doesn't matter if you're right 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.200 or wrong, you will end up getting turned upside down. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.399 It's like I tell everybody all the time. One minute 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.560 I was a passing here in a vehicle, the next minute, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.040 I'm on a freeway fast ride to prison with a 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.840 life sentence. And it can happen to anyone, anywhere, at 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.960 any time. This is not to support say that we 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.800 don't need the police and the justice system. I've been 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.919 in those places where these people in these places are 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.719 absolute maniacs. We need the police, but the justice system 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:53.199 itself needs to be corrected. There needs to be a 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:58.080 secondary overlook of cases. And I understand it's costly and 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.560 it does this in there, but the problem is that 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.440 these people were allowed to push this wagon without him 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.040 any factual evidence to it. Does it prove this doesn't 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.479 prove that. It's hard to say, but my point is 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.280 with some oversight, some of this will be slowed down. 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.720 Here's the perspective of Bill Richards. A few episodes ago, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.040 we heard the story of how he was wrongfully incarcerated 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.800 for the murder of his wife and served twenty three 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:31.000 years in prison the California Innostance Project. It was the 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.480 best thing for me. I was on a level four 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.080 yard and sent Noah prison to hard core yard that 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.320 the guy was working with us talking to him about it, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.040 and he was innocent. He gave me the address for 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.600 the Innocence Project, which you just opened up at that time. 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.240 So I wrote them a letter and they sent me 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.760 back a questionnaire, and I sent them a bunch of 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.679 information that I had that I had written myself, like 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.919 about sixty pages of documentation of perjury and stuff by 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.919 the police. So they came down to students and then 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.479 viewed me, and you know, they did the investigation and 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.960 they were instrumental in picking up the case because you know, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.200 they get a couple of thousand cases a year people 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.480 asking for help. Built a couple of years from the 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.719 actually sign on to represent me because they have to investigate. 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.240 You know, they need to know you're really innocent, and 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.120 is there anything to work with. The Innocence Project probably 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.560 spent sixteen years working on the case to get me out. 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.520 You know, I stay in touch with other people. There's 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.840 a woman whose husband is in prison in Missouri. Her 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.520 husband is represented by the Missouri Innocence Project, and she's 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:37.520 always trying to raise money and get a private lawyer. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.280 And I told you you couldn't possibly pay private lawyer 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.120 to do with the projects. Do this is what they do. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.399 It's what they know how to do. Get fundraisers. I 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.119 don't even want to consider how much money, just in 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.520 expenses it costs to get me out of prison. You 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.640 could never do that with a private attorney unless you're 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:00.000 thinking rich. Bill recalled all the evidence that they telephone 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.800 and the Innocence Project found which suggested he was in 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.720 fact innocent. I'm trying to think there's DNA and a 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.360 murder weapon. It was exactly the places where their experts 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.160 of the killers DNA would be. They are considerable other things. 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.000 There's also planet evidence. There was a point, after being 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:25.000 in Jeez almost twenty years when that technicality came into play. 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.640 A court had already rolled at the evidence pointed unerringly 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:29.840 the innocence and he didn't have half the evidence we 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.800 have now, and they used technicality and the higher courts 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:34.600 just ignored, said well, we're not going to look at that. 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:37.680 At that point, I thought I lost. That's the first 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:41.440 time I gave up. When the California Innocence Project was 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:45.119 working on William's case, they encountered a technicality in case 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:49.200 law that would not let them submit new expert testimony. 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:52.600 They fought that technicality and it has since been removed 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:58.520 by the California legislature. Technicality was that expert witnesses could 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:03.000 not recancer testimony or new expert witnesses cannot be considered 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.800 because their testimonies only an opinion. But that's what the 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.879 jury here is. I don't care if it's DNA, whatever 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.639 it is, and expert testifies to it. It was such 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:15.840 a bad thing that they've done this, as so many 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.440 other people, and I think my case stood out because 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.720 I've already had a rule of innocence that the legislature 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.040 introduced a bill to change the law to say, this 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.480 is totally ridiculous. You've got evidence of innocence and you 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.639 can't use it. I think there's only fourteen people in 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.960