1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me, 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the prime It makes no sense, it 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: all took the same of of office. We're all bound 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway, m d N. 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: A kind of changed everything. It was the game changer 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: because for the first time in history we had really 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: definitive proof of innocence, although I'm gonna say the second 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: time in history. I always tell my students DNA cases 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: aren't the best cases. The best cases are murder cases 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: where the victim shows up alive later on, and there's 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: there's been ten of those documented in history of the 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: United States. But short of the victims showing up alive 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: and DNA cases, it gets very difficult to win these cases. 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: But here's what I've seen happen over the last twenty 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: years is DNA opened the door to make believers out 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: of judges that hey, innocent people are falling through the cracks. 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: Let's face it, Exoneration cases in the United States aren't 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: exactly commonplace. According to the United States Department of Justice, 28 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 1: there were just under one and a half million people 29 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: in prison by the end of two thousand eighteen, but 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: as of May, there have only been two thousand, six 31 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: hundred exonerations, and a lot of those exonerations have happened 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: very recently. This is because of things like advancement in 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: DNA and other technology. DNA has been a very helpful 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: tool in providing evidence of innocence for wrongly incarcerated people. 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: But as the California Innocence Project director Justin Brooks said 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning, DNA has done more than simply providing evidence. 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: It's opened the door to the idea that people are 38 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: in fact in jail for crimes that they did not commit. 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: Judges eyes are now more open, Judges are now more 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: willing to consider that wrongful evidence is real, and to 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: hear wrongful conviction cases even if there is not DNA 42 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: evidence to clear them. Here's Amelia Maxfield, forensic science specialists 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: for the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. Before there was DNA evidence, 44 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: no one even believes that the system got it wrong 45 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: or could get it wrong. So it's definitely been the 46 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: catalyst for many exonerations and for kind of the innocence 47 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: movement as a whole. If there's any way for us 48 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: to go back and test evidence it was found at 49 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: the crime scene to try to identify the true perpetrator, 50 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: will do that. That's kind of the easiest, removes straightforward 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: way to get back into court if you have new 52 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: evidence of an alternate perpetrator from a DNA analysis. Even 53 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: though courts today are more likely than ever before to 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: hear claims of actual innocence, there are still a lot 55 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: of roadblocks along the way, especially in the way that 56 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: evidence is tested and stored when that evidence might contain 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: d N A. There's the first hurdle of even getting 58 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: access to the evidence. Evidence is kept in the custody 59 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: of the state. It may or may not have been 60 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: stored properly. It may or may not have been retained 61 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: at all. There was a widespread evidence destruction order issued 62 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: in the city of Philadelphia twenty years ago because there 63 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: was like a maggot infestation of evidence. Years worth of 64 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: potentially exculpatory DNA evidence was just destroyed because it wasn't 65 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: properly stored. We've had some counties where we've gone to 66 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: look for evidence it was just stored in the courthouse basement, 67 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: and then there was a flood, and then the evidence 68 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: is gone. And then there's a second hurdle of getting 69 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: access to testing. You have to get an order from 70 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: the court, and different states have different standards in order 71 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: to be eligible for DNA testing. A reasonable DA who 72 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: has a post conviction case from the eighties or nineties 73 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: where DNA testing was never done and the evidence still exists, 74 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: many of them will take the tact that we think 75 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: they should, which is, you know, we have the evidence, 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: why not just test it and it'll either confirmed the 77 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: conviction was right, or it'll show that the conviction was wrong, 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: and then we'll go from there. It's just fair and 79 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: just to test the evidence. Then you have the cost barrier, 80 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: so DNA testing is extremely expensive. Even simple DNA testing 81 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: runs you in the multiple thousands of dollars. Most states 82 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: have statutes written in such a way that the state 83 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: will pay for DNA testing either if you meet a 84 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: certain higher legal standard or if you agree for the 85 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: testing to be done at the state's lab. We just 86 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: don't trust some of the state labs, or they don't 87 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: have the capacity to do the testing that we want. 88 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: They don't have the technology we need. We're often looking 89 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: for small amounts of touch DNA found on specific items 90 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: and they don't have the ability to do that type 91 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: of testing. Getting the evidence in front of the court 92 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: and having them understand what it means and agree that 93 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: it is exculpatory is kind of the final hurdle. It's 94 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: amazing how many times when you have a rape and 95 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: murder case and you finally test the DNA and it 96 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 1: exonerates your client. It's not his DNA, it's someone else's DNA. 97 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, for the first time, the 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: state comes back with the theory that there was a 99 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: second person there, that your client is still involved in 100 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: the murder, but a second person also raped the victim, 101 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: and that's never been a theory before. Amelia says, they 102 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: haven't actually had that many successful DNA exonerations. In fact, 103 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: it's been the minority of the Pennsylvania Innocence Projects exoneration cases. 104 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: Most of our clients have been exonerated based on new 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: evidence in the form of new witnesses coming forward, or 106 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: witnesses were chanting their testimony, or you know, finding something 107 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: in the homicide file, or ineffective assistance of trial counsel. 108 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: We also try to get new opinions based on modern 109 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: science in cases where a forensic science was used that 110 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: may be outdated, if we can get an analyst who's 111 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: been properly trained to look at a discipline and tell 112 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: us whether what was done was valid or not. There's 113 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: something like two thousand exonerations total, and only three hundred 114 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: of those involved DNA. There was a whole bunch of 115 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: people in Texas whose convictions were overturned because there was 116 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: misconduct by a specific officer involved in their case. So 117 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: those are all exonerations, but they're not DNA generations. A 118 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: friend of mine, Michelle Tiegel, is a criminal lawyer who 119 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: works in Texas. Michelle has lots of experience working in 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: both small towns and big cities, and I asked her 121 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: about some of the issues that she sees in her 122 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: post conviction practice. You would think it's just, oh, well, 123 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: we know this is now faulty science, so we're just 124 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: going to get him out. But there's so much more 125 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: to it than that, and our systems are procedural beasts. 126 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: Oftentimes lawyers have to really put their heads together and 127 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: then often really try and convince prosecutors to work with 128 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: them and trying to find a way to remedy and 129 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: fix what has happened. Meaning you know that someone's been 130 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted on faulty science. But Michelle says that even 131 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: if you do get a prosecutor to play ball, there 132 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: are still a lot of challenges. In Texas, there are 133 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: certain timelines that you have, and then there are of 134 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: course different issues that you can file what's called a 135 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: writ to basically get your case back before the trial 136 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: quarter back before one of the higher courts in that 137 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: jurisdiction based on new evidence or new science. But then 138 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: there are all these procedural what I would call hurdles. 139 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: You have to get a certain standard of evidence or 140 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: a certain type of testimony or a certain type of testing, 141 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: and then it has to be presented to the right 142 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, decision maker, whatever court that may be in 143 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: that jurisdiction, and then those decisions are never moved and 144 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: usually made quickly. There's often tons of briefing and paperwork 145 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: that comes behind that to convince whoever the decision maker 146 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: is that this is accurate, and you have to get 147 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: x often to back that up experts that normally would 148 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: not be cheap, but that you're often begging to work 149 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: for free to try to help free someone who was 150 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: convicted on faulty science. And it's it's kind of begging 151 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: all the way down the line, is what post conviction 152 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: lawyers have to do. I mean, I commend them for it, 153 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: because it is often thankless work and they spend years 154 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: on it. I was involved in a capital murder case 155 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: years ago, a man named Ed Graff who was originally convicted, 156 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, which is the 157 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: highest criminal appellate court in Texas, reversed his conviction, but 158 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: they remanded it. And what that means is is that 159 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: they just sent it back to the trial court. They 160 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: didn't say he was innocent, they did not exonerate him, 161 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: but they said the science was bad. But we're gonna 162 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: send this case back to either be resolved by the 163 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: d a's office through a plea bargain or tried to 164 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: a jury. And we ultimately tried that case to a 165 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: jury with all new science, different experts, and you know, 166 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: there were a lot of witnesses, of course from a 167 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty capital murder case that we're no longer alive, 168 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: and that became a tricky thing. What we wanted them 169 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: to do, what we would have rather them done in 170 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: that case, was just to exonerate our client, but they 171 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: instead reversed the conviction and said, we're not actually going 172 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: to call him actually innocent. We're going to say that 173 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: there was a flaw in this science and a problem 174 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: and we know that now, and so we're going to 175 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: send the rest back to be heard by jury or 176 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: decided by the d A. Michelle says, the jury deliberated 177 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: for about two whole days. When a jury's out a while, 178 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: you start, especially as a defense lawyer, thanking somebody in 179 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: there's fighting for my client. They're not just willing to, 180 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, say guilty and let's send him away for life. 181 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: We hadn't really had many conversations or plea bargain negotiations 182 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: because we we believed our client was innocent. During the 183 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: course of the jury being out for two days, we 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: started having some of those conversations and and as a 185 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyer, anytime an offer is communicated, whether you 186 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: want your client to take it or not, you have 187 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: to communicate it. That's not something that's negotiable or that 188 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: we have discretion on. We also started looking at the 189 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: parole laws because this was a man who had already 190 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: served over twenty years in a Texas prison for the 191 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: conviction that had been obtained in the nineteen eighties. We 192 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: determined that if he pled guilty to anything less than 193 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: a life sentence, based on old parole laws, he would 194 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: immediately be released, meaning the d A, the judge, the 195 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: Texas Department of Criminal Justice, they would have no control. 196 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: It was a mandatory release on anything less than a 197 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: life sentence. Because of the time he had already served. 198 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: He ended up taking a plea bargain offer of less 199 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: than a life sentence. He pled guilty while the jury 200 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: was still out, so we didn't get a verdict. The 201 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: d a's office actually and this ended up being kind 202 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: of a little bit of a Snapho, but the d 203 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: a's office in McLennan County did not know about that 204 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: parole law and immediately went to the media and said 205 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: that they would contest him ever being released and he 206 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't get out on parole, and we kind of just 207 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: left it at that. Eventually, the media and everyone caught 208 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: onto it, and what I said was and I got 209 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: some you know, it wasn't a popular thing to say, 210 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: but I stand by it. Is. My job is to 211 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: explain a lot of my client. The d a's job 212 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: is to know the law himself or herself. It's not 213 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: my job to explain it to them. And unfortunately they 214 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: didn't know the law in that situation. And so my 215 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: client is out now and I'm glad for that because 216 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: I think he should be personally. But that was kind 217 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: of a I guess you could say a technical procedural 218 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: when for that man m M. I think there's this 219 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: misconception from television shows that make the news that DNA 220 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: is some sort of a magic bullet for the criminal 221 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: justice system. DNA has been and continues to be a 222 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: fantastic tool. It's used to get to the bottom of 223 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: the question of who committed a crime, but there are 224 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: many cases or situations where DNA evidence might not be 225 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: available or even applicable. For the rest of the episode, 226 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: we're going to play for you parts of the interviews 227 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: with the four exonorees we spoke to about their exoneration 228 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: processes and their release from prison. Although these are four 229 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: or unique individual cases, they are all very difficult experiences, 230 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: and there are some commonalities across the board, including the 231 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: amount of time and effort that it took to prove 232 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: their innocence, the challenges they faced in rejoining society, and 233 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: the continued effects of their time in prison. Here's William Dillon, 234 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: the exonoree we spoke with in the episode on Scent Dogs. 235 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: When I got out, I was despaired with the fact 236 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: that they hadn't caught who actually committed the crime. And 237 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: that's what really bothered me more than anything. Some people saying, oh, 238 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: you're free now here is great, and then some people 239 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: look at well, this guy could be a massive mascular 240 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: and all that it was bothering me internally in my heart. 241 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: And when they finally came through and got the DNA 242 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,119 Speaker 1: on this guy and then a confession to this guy, 243 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: and I ended up getting compensated and everything. I felt 244 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: a lot better through the process. I was able to heal. 245 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: I feel that that's helped me a lot. In the 246 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: journey forward. You may recall that William was arrested for 247 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: a murder when he offered to help with the police investigation. 248 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: After being subject to intense interrogation, irresponsible use of a 249 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: forensic dog, and faulty eyewitness testimony, William served twenty seven 250 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: years of a life sentence for a crime he did 251 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: not commit. When I was indicted for murder, there was 252 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: an anonymous phone call by a woman that said you 253 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: have the wrong person. That these two guys were the 254 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: ones involved in the crime. At that same time, the 255 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: chief investigator was the one that came to get me 256 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: from the car. He just wrote it down in the 257 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: file and didn't look into it well. It ended up 258 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: being thirty years later that those two guys were the 259 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: ones that were involved in the crime, as well as 260 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: two other juveniles. They did DNA on a shirt that 261 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: gets the killer left in the truck of the man 262 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: that was supposed to identify me that night, which my 263 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: lawyer was gonna have me try on at the trial. 264 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: It's a good thing I didn't. The one whose DNA 265 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: they got on the shirt, he denied any involvement. He 266 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: was in Chicago. DNA was taken thirty years later for 267 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: domestic violence. He was seventeen at the time of the murder. 268 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: The second guy had been living on the streets, and 269 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: he confessed that FORUM had committed the crime. And even 270 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: then the police still tried to put me in their crew, 271 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: saying wasn't dealing, there wasn't involved, And the guy that 272 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: when living on the street says, no, he was not 273 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: involved at all. My parents never believe I was actually 274 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: innocent of the crime. People ask me to you to 275 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: forgive them. Of course I do. When you're manipulated by 276 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: a power and a justice system that is supposed to 277 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: be the last of the line, is supposed to be 278 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: the true sense of justice, the true sense of what's 279 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: going on, at least as closest we can get it. 280 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: And you know as an individual of being the one 281 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: being attacked, and you know that witnesses in your case 282 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: have been manipulated by people that are using this power 283 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: and authority. I can forgive anybody that has been manipulated. 284 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: I can't forgive those that did the manipulating. I think 285 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: it really didn't matter to them about justice. I keep 286 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: saying all the time that you know, maybe it was 287 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: one or two, but in the basic senses of it 288 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: is is all of them. They were all down with 289 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: the count. Probably one or two that started the ball rolling, 290 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: and then everybody just followed on end. Could have been 291 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: somebody that just trying to shine up the stars and 292 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: get another conviction down the road. Another guy gone down 293 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: the road, who cares. My life didn't matter to imperiod. 294 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: They destroyed my life completely, they really did. They just 295 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: didn't know it would come back to buy them. William 296 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: says that when the day of his exoneration finally came, 297 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: he felt at least some sense of peace. I can't 298 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: even begin to tell you that I felt like it 299 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: was being carried down those steps. It was such an 300 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: amazing feeling. It was gratifying more than you know, the 301 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: sense of being found innocent or known to be innocent, 302 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: or just to be released from the hell that I 303 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: had been in. It was just a very very happy thing. 304 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: But at the same time, there was huge hurtles to overcome, 305 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: and technology had completely changed. People had phones in their pockets, computers. 306 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: When I went to prison. The phones were on the 307 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: wall and NASA had the computers. Everything was just extremely fast. 308 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: Information was everywhere. It was a hurdle, but at the 309 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: same time I was figured it was out to me, 310 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: So I just dove into it as much as I could, 311 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: and I just took ahold of it and learned as 312 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: much as I could as fast as I could information wise, 313 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: And it's not that complicated. You have to really get 314 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: in and want to get it. I think the biggest 315 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: hurdle for me was shopping with so many selections as perplexing. 316 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: I would go look for a bar so going there 317 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: and to be so many choices, I'd have to walk 318 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: out because I just get this overwhelming feeling and have 319 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: to leave. A simple as that sounds, that's that was 320 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: probably the biggest dilemma that I had. The reason why 321 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: I came on here today is I want to let 322 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: your listeners know that what you see on TV is 323 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: not the real thing. That is not the criminal justice system. 324 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: Those are actors acting. The real criminal justice system is 325 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: a horrific place, and it doesn't matter if you're right 326 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: or wrong, you will end up getting turned upside down. 327 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: It's like I tell everybody all the time. One minute 328 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: I was a passing here in a vehicle, the next minute, 329 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm on a freeway fast ride to prison with a 330 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: life sentence. And it can happen to anyone, anywhere, at 331 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: any time. This is not to support say that we 332 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: don't need the police and the justice system. I've been 333 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: in those places where these people in these places are 334 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: absolute maniacs. We need the police, but the justice system 335 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: itself needs to be corrected. There needs to be a 336 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: secondary overlook of cases. And I understand it's costly and 337 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: it does this in there, but the problem is that 338 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: these people were allowed to push this wagon without him 339 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: any factual evidence to it. Does it prove this doesn't 340 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,479 Speaker 1: prove that. It's hard to say, but my point is 341 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: with some oversight, some of this will be slowed down. 342 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: Here's the perspective of Bill Richards. A few episodes ago, 343 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: we heard the story of how he was wrongfully incarcerated 344 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: for the murder of his wife and served twenty three 345 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: years in prison the California Innostance Project. It was the 346 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: best thing for me. I was on a level four 347 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: yard and sent Noah prison to hard core yard that 348 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: the guy was working with us talking to him about it, 349 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: and he was innocent. He gave me the address for 350 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project, which you just opened up at that time. 351 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: So I wrote them a letter and they sent me 352 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: back a questionnaire, and I sent them a bunch of 353 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: information that I had that I had written myself, like 354 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: about sixty pages of documentation of perjury and stuff by 355 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: the police. So they came down to students and then 356 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 1: viewed me, and you know, they did the investigation and 357 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: they were instrumental in picking up the case because you know, 358 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: they get a couple of thousand cases a year people 359 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: asking for help. Built a couple of years from the 360 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: actually sign on to represent me because they have to investigate. 361 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: You know, they need to know you're really innocent, and 362 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: is there anything to work with. The Innocence Project probably 363 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: spent sixteen years working on the case to get me out. 364 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: You know, I stay in touch with other people. There's 365 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: a woman whose husband is in prison in Missouri. Her 366 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: husband is represented by the Missouri Innocence Project, and she's 367 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: always trying to raise money and get a private lawyer. 368 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: And I told you you couldn't possibly pay private lawyer 369 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: to do with the projects. Do this is what they do. 370 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: It's what they know how to do. Get fundraisers. I 371 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: don't even want to consider how much money, just in 372 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: expenses it costs to get me out of prison. You 373 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: could never do that with a private attorney unless you're 374 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: thinking rich. Bill recalled all the evidence that they telephone 375 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: and the Innocence Project found which suggested he was in 376 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: fact innocent. I'm trying to think there's DNA and a 377 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: murder weapon. It was exactly the places where their experts 378 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: of the killers DNA would be. They are considerable other things. 379 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: There's also planet evidence. There was a point, after being 380 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: in Jeez almost twenty years when that technicality came into play. 381 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: A court had already rolled at the evidence pointed unerringly 382 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: the innocence and he didn't have half the evidence we 383 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: have now, and they used technicality and the higher courts 384 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: just ignored, said well, we're not going to look at that. 385 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: At that point, I thought I lost. That's the first 386 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: time I gave up. When the California Innocence Project was 387 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: working on William's case, they encountered a technicality in case 388 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: law that would not let them submit new expert testimony. 389 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: They fought that technicality and it has since been removed 390 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: by the California legislature. Technicality was that expert witnesses could 391 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: not recancer testimony or new expert witnesses cannot be considered 392 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: because their testimonies only an opinion. But that's what the 393 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: jury here is. I don't care if it's DNA, whatever 394 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: it is, and expert testifies to it. It was such 395 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: a bad thing that they've done this, as so many 396 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: other people, and I think my case stood out because 397 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: I've already had a rule of innocence that the legislature 398 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: introduced a bill to change the law to say, this 399 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: is totally ridiculous. You've got evidence of innocence and you 400 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: can't use it. I think there's only fourteen people in 401 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: the whole legislature that didn't vote for it. So it 402 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: was very well received. And when that came, we went 403 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 1: back to court and I got out on the evidence 404 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: unanimously in the Californy Supreme Court. But that's look another 405 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: seven years. It's like being dropped on an alien planet 406 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: because nothing is the same. And I was only in 407 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: twenty three years and I look at these guys get 408 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: out after forty It's a completely different world technology. That's 409 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: why I say I'm catching up on computers. I'm way 410 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: behind on them, and they're smarter than I am, you 411 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: know so, And I think they fight me half the time. 412 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: Society is different, people are different. Money isn't even the same. 413 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: Not to mention, everything costs three to four times what 414 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: it did before the line of work I did. There's 415 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: almost none of it around anymore, and they're surely not 416 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: hiring a guy that's almost seventy years old to do it. 417 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: I think it would be easy to find something that 418 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: wasn't changed, because everything changes. And of course I'm not 419 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: a young man anymore, and that doesn't help, you know, 420 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: my mind, I'm still a young man, because for some reason, 421 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: your mind when you go through this doesn't And I've 422 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: talked to others honories that they still picture them. So 423 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: I still ficture myself as forty. I look in the Maratha, 424 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: Oh my god, who's at I drive down the street 425 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: I used to live on, and I don't recognize it 426 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: because the trees are so big. Young trees have been planted, 427 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: just a little almost saplings now go by there the 428 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: two ft in diameter and there's a canopy over the 429 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: road to me, this was overnight to me. This was 430 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: I was this guy here and this is the life. 431 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: And now you're dropping out here in and everything has 432 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: changed and I haven't been there to change with it, 433 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, because that's it. When you're inside, you don't 434 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: change with the world. You're isolated away from it. Bill 435 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: is now involved in a civil lawsuit against the police 436 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: officers who went after him. He could not talk about 437 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: that case very much since it is owngoing litigation, but 438 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: he and his legal team say that they have found 439 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: proof that evidence was planted that resulted in his conviction. 440 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: One of the attorneys she's looked through the records and found, 441 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this evidence turned up ten days after 442 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: the autopsy. So that is a major part of where 443 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: we're going after them today is we have valid evidence 444 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: that planted evidence to incriminate me. I'm hoping we get 445 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: some sort of settlement. I don't have any family at 446 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: my age. I mean, I don't need it money unfortunately, 447 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: but I do have a living trust. If the cancer 448 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: gets to me before the civil action has done, all 449 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: the money will go to St. Jude's Wanted Warrior Project, 450 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: child refuge innocience projects. If I can't do some good 451 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: to somebody else for what they did to me. Since 452 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: I've been out, been merrit twice, I guess you could 453 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: say I'm being the true American person now days. Calvin 454 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: Johnson was the first d NA AS honoree from the 455 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: state of Georgia back in nine when we heard about 456 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: his case a few episodes ago. He was convicted by 457 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: an all white jury using inconclusive blood and faulty forensic 458 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: hair evidence. At the same time, he was declared not 459 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: guilty on a similar case by a diverse jury because 460 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: there was overwhelming proof of innocence. He was finally exonerated 461 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: after the evidence in the first case was sent to 462 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: a lab for DNA testing. He's been out of prison 463 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: for twenty years now, but he's faced major setbacks once 464 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: they set him free. I mean, when you get desonerated, 465 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: you come out with nothing. You don't get the little 466 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: twenty five dollars to say that Georgia mc gee. You 467 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: you don't get closed that they might give you. You 468 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: can't get into any of the programs that they may have, 469 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: and they just toss you all. You're like a baby 470 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: and you need HILP. If you were in prison, and 471 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: you will die, Betty. Now, guess what, you don't having 472 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: the medical benefits. At a hard time getting the driver 473 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: license because I didn't have a car. So I had 474 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: a Runner car and I got there to the test. 475 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: I got in the runner car to do the driver 476 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: tests and they walked out him and they tell me 477 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: and say, hey, you can't take the tests in the 478 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: runner car. I get out of the car and I 479 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: walked to the car behind me, two complete stranger, and said, hey, 480 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: excuse me, sir. I said, they won't let me take 481 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: the test in my car because it's a Runner car. 482 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: Said can I use your car? And he said yeah. 483 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: So I asked him and say kind I had this 484 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: a couple of minutes to get familiar because I ain't 485 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: been out of prison. But two weeks I took the 486 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: test and I passed. That's an obstacle. The obstacle is 487 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 1: a little simple stuff. You go to the gas station. 488 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: Guess what it's self served. When I went to prison, 489 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: people would come out and they would pump your gas 490 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: and wash your windows. We didn't have self serves. I'm 491 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: standing there at the pump, looking around, hoping nobody staring 492 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: at me. Don't I didn't know what to do. I 493 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: was a very to ask anybody. I went to get 494 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: my own apartment. He said, Mr Johnson, you don't have 495 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: bad credit. You just don't have any credit. They want 496 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: to try to try to charge me, like triple the 497 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: deposit something. So I got upset. I remember going to 498 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: getting all these newspaper articles where they had been getting 499 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: out of prison and going back to that office. I 500 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: laid these articles across the desk and said, now, look, 501 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: this is why I don't have any credit. I've been 502 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: locked up for sixteen years. I've been punished for a 503 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: crime I didn't commit. Now out here in this world, 504 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: you're trying to punish me even more, and it's not fair. 505 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: And so I guess what. They went ahead and they 506 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: read with the department under the normal amount of depositive 507 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: people normally pay. But these are the challenges. I do 508 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: have a job that I've been at for the last 509 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: twenty years, which is really fortunate. I've been working with Martha, 510 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: which is Metropolitan, a lot of rappertricive authority. They're like 511 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: a big kid. Sometimes it was what with Giant train said, 512 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: but but I love it. I can't retire now. I'm 513 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: still hanging around. I'm pretty healthy, I feel good, So 514 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: why retire Now that I'm working and I'm actually giving 515 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: a paycheck, I mean like, wow, hey, it's great. Finally 516 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: we're going to hear from Joe Das another Exonoree we 517 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: spoke to earlier this season. Joe has been very involved 518 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: in the work of restorative justice and emotional healing since 519 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: he left prison, not only for himself but for others 520 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: who have been wronged by the criminal justice system. Almost 521 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: on a weekly basis, there's another man or woman who 522 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: has been falsely accused who's getting out through one way 523 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: or another. And this wasn't so common before DNA. A 524 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: matter of fact, I sat in the same prison from 525 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: the six years with the man who was also innocent. 526 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know he was innocent, and he didn't know 527 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: I was innocent until we saw each other twenty seven 528 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: team or at the Innocent's Conference, and we're looking at 529 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: each other. Damn, you were innocent too. And for all 530 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: my brothers and sisters that are sitting in some sort 531 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: of compliment anywhere, not only in the nation, but throughout 532 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: the globe, all I can say to you is never 533 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 1: give up. Always continue to fight, never never give up. 534 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: Joe says that after finishing his time, he was determined 535 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: to clear his name. So once I get out, I 536 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: remember that I had been told by the a c O. 537 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: You go to the public defenders office. I went to 538 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: the public defenders office. They told me the same thing again. 539 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: Can't help you. Go back to your trial attorney. Finally, 540 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: I said, well, I don't have the choice. I have 541 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: to go to the devil and convicted me. I went 542 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: back to the district attorney, called him and told him listen, 543 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: I am out now assured you that I did not 544 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: commit this crime. And now that you guys had DNA tests, 545 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: I want to come give you my blood. I want 546 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: you to test so you can see that I did 547 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: not commit it. You don't have to trust my side 548 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: of the story because I wasn't there. You weren't there. 549 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: So I'll tell you what. Why don't you let science 550 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: prove it for you. I showed up at the DA's office. 551 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: He has an investigator show up, and the first question 552 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: out of the investigators of mouth is well, what do 553 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: you hope to accomplish with this? I assured him, listen, 554 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: the only thing I want to do is clear my name. 555 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: There's no way in the world you guys are gonna 556 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: be able to return my years to me. Finally, he 557 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: returned my call one day and tells me, listen, the 558 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: d a's office paid for this DNA test and it's 559 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: inconclusive and that's it. Nothing else we can do. My 560 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: wife and I were always sitting around, brainstorming, throwing ideas around, 561 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: what can we do, What can we do? What can 562 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: we do? My wife says, what kind of other evidence 563 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: was there? And that's when it dawned at me. There 564 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: was a slipper. When the guy ran off, he lost 565 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: one of his slippers, I said, son of a gun. 566 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: When my appeals had exhausted, they destroyed all the evidence 567 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: so that slipper was no longer there. Somehow or another. 568 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: They have to preserve evidence, because in this case, I 569 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: was out of evidence to preserve. But Joe held out 570 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: and continued finding. Finally, after ten long years, he got 571 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: his exoneration. Thankfully, they had so many reformer, retired settles 572 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: ap D investigators who were able to talk and realize, 573 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: oh wait a minute, we had put together a task 574 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: force to try to find that guy. We never did 575 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: you mean somebody actually set in prison for those crimes. 576 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: The local district attorney recognized what had gone wrong in 577 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: Joe's case, so he started to use Joe's case to 578 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: train other prosecutors and police departments on how to improve 579 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: their investigative processes. I'm in all of the district attorney 580 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: and the positive changes that he's working towards that district, 581 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: the trades offices, night and day from what it was 582 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: way back when I was wrongly convicting. The general public 583 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: isn't to where they see people on TV. Oh, this 584 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: person just got out. This person got tens of millions 585 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: of dollars. That is a very small minority that gets 586 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: those millions of dollars. And I can assure you right now, 587 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: I don't care how many tens of millions of dollars 588 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these agonies receive from the state, from 589 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: the county, and the majority of them are able to 590 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: get that much. Are the ones who are able to 591 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: prove prosebratorial misconduct, which is extremely, extremely difficult to prove. 592 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: Those few men and women who get that money are 593 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: walking zombies. A lot of them. You may see them 594 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: on a TV show, you may interview them on a podcast. 595 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: Do not look at the exterior facade, because I've had 596 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: people tell me what you look okay, you speak well, 597 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: you must be okay. I said, don't you ever ever 598 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: read a book by its cover, because you don't know 599 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: what PTSD I have to endure and live with for 600 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: the rest of my life. On top of dealing with PTSD, 601 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: Joe has also had struggles adapting to civilian life. The 602 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: first thing was even trying to get a job. Because 603 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: I wasn't exonerated directly from prison. I had to come 604 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: out and do three years of Pearl. For three years. 605 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: I was so paranoid. I was so concerned that I 606 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: would be framed again by these cops. So everywhere I went, 607 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: every step I took, I kept a journal, talk about paranoia, 608 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: talk about being super hyper vigilar. I couldn't even shop 609 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: in the stores, you know, without these people getting too 610 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: close to me with a shopping cart, touching me with 611 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: a shopping cart, like turn around, ready to kill people. 612 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: What the hell are you doing so close to me? 613 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: Add to that, they put me up on that sex 614 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: offender and registry. Think about my children not being able 615 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: to play with kids in the neighborhood. Think about some 616 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: kids riding their bikes too close to me, and their 617 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: parents or grandparents done enough to them, come on, come on, 618 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: come on, and taking them home because they were afraid 619 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: they think that I'm some sort of a monster. The 620 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: opportunity cost that I lost of earning an education, of 621 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: earning a living, of being able to contribute to social security. 622 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: Fortunately took a lot of weekend and night courses and 623 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: I was able to get into into corporate America and 624 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: earn a better living. There's not a data goes by 625 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: that this doesn't affect me in one way or another. 626 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: I don't have the capacity to concentrate like I used to. 627 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: I don't have the capacity to exercise the emotional intelligence 628 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: that I used to her that I could have been 629 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: able to work on it on a daily basis. Joe 630 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: says he eventually found people to talk about his situation, 631 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: including Jennifer Thompson. Jennifer was once attacked and identified the 632 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: wrong person out of the lineup. She later fixed that 633 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: misidentification and she started her own foundation called Healing Justice 634 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: for people who were Wrongfully incarcerated. The circles that she 635 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: holds revolve around restorative justice and believe me, I have 636 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: spent I don't know how much money on therapist. But 637 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't until I sat in a restorative justice circle 638 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: and I saw the magic in it. Because I could 639 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: now sit in a circle in the fire as they 640 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: call it, what other axonorees who have been through what 641 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: I've been through. And we sat there and we shed 642 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: tears for a whole weekend. I walked away a million 643 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: pounds lighter. When an exonore is exonerated, people think, well, 644 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that individual. There's nothing that 645 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: I can do for that person. Of course you can. 646 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: We all have some sort of gift that we were 647 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: born with that we can share with another human being. 648 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: We all have some kind of influence, whether you can 649 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: give a person a coat, a pair of shoes, an 650 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: opportunity of a job, mentoring. You know, you may be retired, 651 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: you may not have the financial means to give a 652 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: person anything you can mentor the person. Believe me, I 653 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: don't know of any man or woman stepping out of 654 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: prison who is going to turn down I and from anybody. 655 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: If you can ever serve as a bridge just to 656 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: even refer that person to somebody else, If you don't 657 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: have the means or the influence do so, because you 658 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: never know what a little act of kindness can do 659 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: for another individual. As I mentioned at the beginning of 660 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: this episode, exonerations are extremely rare. These men are incredibly 661 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: unfortunate to have been put into these situations in the 662 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: first place. They unfairly lost so many years of their lives. 663 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: But in at least one way, they are lucky that 664 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: lawyers and innocence projects and conviction integrity units were eventually 665 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: able to look at their cases, consider evidence of their 666 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: actual innocence, and take some action. So many cases in 667 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: the United States do not have that type of evidence 668 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: or support. Criminal cases often boiled down to one person's 669 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: word against another. As they say, you can't prove a negative. 670 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: It's so much harder to find evidence that something did 671 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: not happen than it is to find evidence that something 672 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: did happen. As William Dylon mentioned, he did not have 673 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: an alibi for the day of the murder because he 674 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: wasn't doing anything really remarkable. The day that William did 675 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: not commit the murder, He did not know that he 676 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: would be needing to keep track of where he was 677 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: and what he was doing. There is a reason that 678 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty is a basic tenant of the 679 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: United States criminal justice system. The right to make the 680 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: state prove someone's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a 681 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 1: foundational principle of our system of justice. However, the way 682 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: our system is set up is that people simply watching 683 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: the news and people who eventually become jurors simply assume 684 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: that someone is guilty merely because they are arrested. In 685 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: other words, the system is supposed to operate on a 686 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty base sys, but in reality it 687 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: works just the other way. People generally consider that someone 688 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: is guilty unless they can somehow prove themselves to be innocent. 689 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: The system gravitates towards finality, and appellate courts can be 690 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: hesitant to reverse a conviction even when errors have occurred 691 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: at trial. It's fair to say that once a jury 692 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: has found someone guilty, it is extremely difficult to undo 693 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: that decision through the traditional appellate process or through an exoneration. 694 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: If you have a message for these axonorees, or, like 695 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: Joe said, anyone still incarcerated around the globe, give us 696 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: a call at four zero four for one zero zero 697 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: four for one next time on Sworn. I think a 698 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: lot of people don't think about this, but I do 699 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: a lot of work with prison inmates. When you have 700 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: a mandatory minimum where there's no parole, and you take 701 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: away hope from a prison and made of getting out, 702 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: you create a very very scary prison system. If you 703 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: sentence people to twenty five years to life without parole, 704 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: they are going to go into prison and commit more 705 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: crimes because they're never going to get out, and they 706 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: have no hope of every getting out, and they know 707 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: they're never gonna get out. What are you gonna do 708 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: to him? Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and 709 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive 710 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, 711 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and 712 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: myself Philip Holloway. Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, 713 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright, and Halle Beadall. Original music and 714 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: sound designed by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song 715 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: is Blood in the Water by Layup. Show art and 716 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: design is by Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing 717 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: and mastering by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks 718 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: to the team at I Heart Radio from U t 719 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: a or In Rosenbound and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and 720 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: Matthew Papa from the Nord Group back Media and Marketing 721 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: and Station sixteen. I'd also like to extend a very 722 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: personal and special thanks to all of our contributors and 723 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: guests who have helped to make all of these episodes possible. 724 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 1: You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at 725 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: Sworn podcast and follow me your host, Philip Holloway on 726 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is 727 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: sworn podcast dot com, and you can check out other 728 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If 729 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: you have questions or comments, you can email us at 730 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: Sworn at Tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a voicemail 731 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: at four zero four for one zero zero four one. 732 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: As always, thanks for listening. H