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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 4: If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 2: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation

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Speaker 2: from two concerned citizens who've actually experienced it. I am Lola.

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Speaker 1: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today, our guest is Andrea Dunlop, novelist and host of

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Speaker 2: the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me, which is all about

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Speaker 2: Munchausen by Proxy. She's going to talk to us about

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Speaker 2: Munchausen by proxy or medical child abuse from a new

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Speaker 2: point of view, what it's like being related to the perpetrator.

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Speaker 2: She'll tell us what her sister was like growing up,

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Speaker 2: how she had exhibited Munchausen behaviors from a very young age,

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Speaker 2: making herself seem to be sick before she had children,

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Speaker 2: and how common that and other forms of deception are

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Speaker 2: among people who later develop Munchausen biproxy.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how her sister fake pregnancy and miscarriage

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Speaker 1: and how the discovery of that warped Andrea's reality, the

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Speaker 1: overlap of characteristics with people who exhibit signs of narcissism

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Speaker 1: and psychopathy, and how actual medical misogyny complicates the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And next week we'll talk about what her sisters started

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Speaker 1: doing to her children, what her family tried to do

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Speaker 1: about it, and why they weren't able to stop her.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it is heartbreaking. She's so incredible, and it's clear

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Speaker 2: that everything she talks about is very well researched. It's

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Speaker 2: very specific. She doesn't say anything she's not confident about

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Speaker 2: that hasn't been researched, Like I very much appreciate that

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Speaker 2: in her. And then on top of that, just like

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Speaker 2: hearing about her story is her what she saw and

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Speaker 2: her sister is fascinating because you don't really ever hear

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Speaker 2: about that side of things.

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Speaker 1: This and next week's we're really eye opening for me.

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Speaker 2: Same before we go down the Munchausen by proxy rabbit hole. Megan,

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Speaker 2: can you kindly tell me your cultiest thing of this week?

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So, growing up, there was a word and a condition

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Speaker 1: that I would always hear about in kind of the

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Speaker 1: background noise of my life, and it was called pseudo siasis.

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Speaker 1: And I had to check in with my dad today

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Speaker 1: to make sure I wasn't completely making it up because

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Speaker 1: it sounds so fake, But essentially, it's when a woman

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Speaker 1: believes she's pregnant so deeply that she will actually start

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Speaker 1: to exhibit signs of being pregnant, such as miss periods,

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Speaker 1: your stomach can start to look kind of different, and

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Speaker 1: all of these crazy features can come into play, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like there was a few little things in

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Speaker 1: my life that really stood out to me that have

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Speaker 1: now shaped how I think and kind of my quote

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Speaker 1: unquote spiritual beliefs, you know what I mean. Where I

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Speaker 1: just remember my dad also saying, like, before you do

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Speaker 1: in vitro, try acupuncture, and that just stuck in my head,

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Speaker 1: like why would acupuncture work as well as in vitro?

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Speaker 4: But it does.

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Speaker 1: And so these little things of like your mind kind

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Speaker 1: of controlling your body in the first sense, and then

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Speaker 1: energy opening up like I'm not selling anything, and as

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Speaker 1: Lola says, she's not on board with most of these things.

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Speaker 1: But those two things are really interesting to me. And

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Speaker 1: then thinking about it in terms of Munchausen's it's just wild.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if some people actually believe.

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Speaker 2: That their children are sick when they're not.

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Speaker 1: There's just so many different ways that this could go.

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Speaker 1: So it started getting me thinking on that track. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's my cultiest thing about of the week. What about you?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's fascinating before we talk about mine. It's so

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Speaker 2: relevant to this episode because you know, we will hear

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Speaker 2: about how convincing it was that Andrea's sister was you

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Speaker 2: seem to be pregnant. But on that note, though, people

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Speaker 2: with suit as I use to are not actually pregnant.

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Speaker 2: They know there's not you can't. That is the interesting part. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it does. It is a really interesting question about

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Speaker 2: like symptoms or symptom relief versus reality, and like how

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Speaker 2: much we actually really can heal versus just alleviate symptoms.

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Speaker 2: You know, I love that shit. I think it's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I asked my dad, like, how is that real? And

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Speaker 1: he just wrote back, your mind is very powerful.

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Speaker 2: So yeah. I mean, while people with anxiety disorders will

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Speaker 2: be the first one to tell you, like, there's so

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Speaker 2: many symptoms you can develop that are legitimate physical symptoms

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Speaker 2: that you until you know that that can be from

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Speaker 2: an anxiety disorder, you fully think that you have something

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Speaker 2: wrong with your brain or your bladder or whatever the

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Speaker 2: fuck you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, panic disorder had me fully convinced I was dying

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Speaker 1: every day around for like two years.

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Speaker 2: Why seven pm, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't know, it would it would just start and I'd think,

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Speaker 1: oh God, I'm dying time single night, Yeah, every single night.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't like it happened last night, maybe I'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, it's I'm dying. Oh terrible, I know,

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 2: I was just for my culdiest thing going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so there is so much in the world.

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Speaker 2: It's fucking crazy, infinite really, But what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: focus on today is this article that I read discussing

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Speaker 2: the idea of monoculture and how it is dead and

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Speaker 2: basically what they're the conversation is. It's with someone named

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Speaker 2: Derek Thompson discussing monoculture and democracy and how culture is

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Speaker 2: changing because of the Internet, and they're basically having a

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Speaker 2: conversation about how, like, oh, it is culture instead of

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Speaker 2: being this thing where we all watch the same shows,

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Speaker 2: we all know, read the same news, becoming this thing

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Speaker 2: where we're all just in a bunch of disparate cults

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Speaker 2: and living completely different realities. It does seem the past

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Speaker 2: couple of years more than ever like we are all

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Speaker 2: fully living in different realities based on what the algorithm

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Speaker 2: is showing us. We're not all watching the same shows.

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Speaker 2: There's so many more. We're definitely not all consuming the

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Speaker 2: same news. On the one hand, I feel like my

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Speaker 2: first instinct with that is to be like, ah, we're

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Speaker 2: all becoming extremists. But they're sort of making the point

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Speaker 2: that when there was a monoculture and we were all

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Speaker 2: watching the same news, nobody was asking those questions of

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Speaker 2: those news organizations that they should have been asking why

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Speaker 2: are you covering that? How are you covering that? What

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Speaker 2: is the reason for what we're seeing on the TV?

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Speaker 2: Like what stories are not being told? Because there is

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Speaker 2: this monoculture and nobody's questioning it. So now it's like

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Speaker 2: he's kind of saying, this actually is how historically it's

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Speaker 2: mostly always been where most people don't have access to

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Speaker 2: the same information. It's just in this really strange way

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Speaker 2: because like technically we do, but because of algorithmic whatever.

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Speaker 2: Fucking yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's wild to me, and it's something we

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Speaker 1: discussed a couple of weeks ago, is how even your

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Speaker 1: comments that you scroll down and see are curated to

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Speaker 1: your beliefs. Right, So we could be watching the same video.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna scroll down and see people being like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's stupid, and you're going to scroll down and see

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Speaker 1: people saying yes, right on, and we're gonna be like, yep, see,

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Speaker 1: it's just why right right? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I do understand the idea of nostalgia for monoculture, but

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Speaker 2: I also really do think it's important to be questioning

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Speaker 2: the culture and questioning monoculture and questioning news and questioning

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Speaker 2: what you know, narratives that we're being fed and what

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Speaker 2: we accept as like the people we are supposed to

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Speaker 2: be seeing on screen, you know what I mean. So

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Speaker 2: I feel both at the same time. I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I am really afraid of how much people are getting

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Speaker 2: deeper and deeper into their holes and like not necessarily

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Speaker 2: always seeing the big picture, but also they're kind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: does this make a difference for democracy? Not necessarily at

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Speaker 2: least there at least now there are challenges to the

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Speaker 2: mainstream that maybe we're always necessary and just not happening.

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Speaker 2: So I just thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's very intriguing. I want to say, excited to see

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Speaker 1: how it turns out. Mostly terrified, but you know, because.

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Speaker 4: The mind controls things.

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Speaker 1: You guys, I'm excited. I'm pregnant with excitement.

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Speaker 2: Nice, I'm pregnant with terror. But that's fine.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's our brand, pregnant with Terror.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna sell shirts.

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Speaker 1: Would you buy Excitement which sex in the city.

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Speaker 2: Character the front ones the back? Yeah? Yeah, cute, Okay, cute.

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Speaker 1: Well should we talk about more serious issues?

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Speaker 2: We should? Let's do it. Welcome Andrea dunlop to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: You are a novelist. But you also have this podcast

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Speaker 2: which is about Munchausen by proxy or medical child abuse,

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Speaker 2: called Nobody Should Believe Me. We've all been listening to

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Speaker 2: it these past couple days. It's great. The reason that

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Speaker 2: this is an area of interest for you is because

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Speaker 2: of something personal in your own background. So can you

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Speaker 2: start off by just telling us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: your sister.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I do come to this topic from a

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Speaker 5: really personal place, and it's because of a situation that

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Speaker 5: has been ongoing in my family for a long time now.

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Speaker 5: I have an older sister, Megan, She's two years older

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Speaker 5: than me. We grew up close. You know, we're close

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Speaker 5: in age, so we were in school together a lot,

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Speaker 5: and you know, had all of the normal sister stuff,

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Speaker 5: but had a good relationship up until our twenties. She

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Speaker 5: has a long history of strange behaviors around illnesses that

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Speaker 5: did start to show up. I think, you know, when

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Speaker 5: I talk to my parents about their memories of things,

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Speaker 5: it certainly goes back much further than this. For me,

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Speaker 5: certainly when we were teenagers, there were some incidents that

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Speaker 5: I talk about the show in the show that that

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Speaker 5: came up. One of the most notable was when she

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Speaker 5: was in high school, she started developing a bald patch

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Speaker 5: on her head, which obviously, you know, for high school girl,

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Speaker 5: that's just the most sort of nightmarish thing to have

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Speaker 5: your hair falling out. And when my mother took her

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Speaker 5: to the dermatologist, he pulled my mom aside and said,

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Speaker 5: it's not falling out, she's shaving it. And so that

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Speaker 5: was certainly, you know, a big incident that stood out.

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Speaker 4: But also, you know, we've all on.

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Speaker 5: This call been teenage girls, and teenage girls sometimes do

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Speaker 5: really strange things for attention, and so it didn't I

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Speaker 5: don't know that it felt like, you know, the world

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Speaker 5: was turned upside down by that incident. There were many

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Speaker 5: other things, and that's as I've learned to sort of

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Speaker 5: always the case with these stories, that it's very hard

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Speaker 5: to unravel what was real and what wasn't because, of course,

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Speaker 5: medical things do happen, injuries do happen. Bodies are fragile,

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Speaker 5: so it's impossible to know unless you have full access

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Speaker 5: to someone's medical records, which I don't. But she had,

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Speaker 5: you know, a back surgery in high school. She had

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Speaker 5: a knee surgery in high school. There was just kind

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Speaker 5: of this really constant pattern of something being wrong all

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Speaker 5: the time, and also of things sort of happening at

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Speaker 5: very specific times when everyone was out of town or

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Speaker 5: when the you know, I look back and realized, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: she had a big health incident when I was graduating

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Speaker 5: from college, you know, kind of when the attention was

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Speaker 5: on someone else, and so she did have a really

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Speaker 5: sort of concerning pattern of behavior, and that, uh, you know,

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Speaker 5: led up to this incident that happened in our twenties

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Speaker 5: where she was with a boyfriend. They were actually engaged

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Speaker 5: for a time, and she told all of us that

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Speaker 5: she was pregnant and looked pregnant. We were planning for

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Speaker 5: two babies to come along. She was pregnant with twin girls,

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Speaker 5: as she told us, and then she lost this pregnancy

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Speaker 5: about six months in and obviously that's a really devastating

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Speaker 5: time to lose a pregnancy. It's always, you know, always

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Speaker 5: a really sad thing, but especially when you're you know,

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Speaker 5: very far.

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Speaker 4: Along, and.

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Speaker 5: You know, it unraveled pretty quickly after that that pregnancy

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Speaker 5: had not been real. That is obviously a very alarming

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Speaker 5: thing for someone to do, to engage in this hoax

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Speaker 5: that goes on for many months and where there's a

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Speaker 5: baby shower and they have names, and I mean it

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Speaker 5: was very, very very elaborate. And you know, this was

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Speaker 5: sort of the precursor to why when she had then

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Speaker 5: her son, which she had him, gosh, almost fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 5: when she had her older child and he was born

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Speaker 5: early and had constant health problems for the first year

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Speaker 5: of his life, and we obviously found that unsettling given

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Speaker 5: her history, did not have any idea about Munchausen by proxy,

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Speaker 5: did not have that terminology or that framework. My parents,

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Speaker 5: you know, got that from talking to their family doctor

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Speaker 5: when we were just concerned and she was not reporting

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Speaker 5: truthfully what the doctors were saying in some cases where

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Speaker 5: my mom was in the room, and it just really

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Speaker 5: seemed like he was having all these problems. He was

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Speaker 5: failure to thrive, you know, which means they're they're not

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Speaker 5: gaining weight and sort of meeting developmental milestones, and she

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Speaker 5: was escalating these interventions for feeding, so he had a

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Speaker 5: feeding toe tube down his nose first, and then she

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Speaker 5: was talking about getting a surgically implanted feeding tube.

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Speaker 1: When you were growing up, your sister sounded kind of

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Speaker 1: grounded to me, like a normal person. Oh, very I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I struggle with

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Speaker 1: and sort of my lens on this really has shifted

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Speaker 1: over time, that continues to shift, is that I remember

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Speaker 1: a very different version of her from when we were kids,

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Speaker 1: from when we were you know, even.

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Speaker 4: Teenagers, and like a bird twenties. You know, my parents have.

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Speaker 5: Memories of the sort of things around meta col deception

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Speaker 5: that go back actually to when she was a child.

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Speaker 5: So and there isn't a lot known, you know, as

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Speaker 5: I know, you guys had doctor Mark Feldon, who's a

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Speaker 5: wonderful expert and psychiatrist that I'm very close with on

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Speaker 5: the show as well, and you know, there's just not

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Speaker 5: a lot known about why people develop these behavior patterns.

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Speaker 5: There sort of we understand that it's an intrinsic emotional reward,

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Speaker 5: that it's a way of getting your needs met, it's

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Speaker 5: a maladaptive coping mechanism. We sort of understand those, But

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Speaker 5: as to like why a specific person does this, we

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Speaker 5: don't know. And I've certainly thought about it to no end,

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Speaker 5: you know, we have. You know, both of my grandfathers

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Speaker 5: were doctors. One of them we weren't, you know, died

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Speaker 5: a long time before we were born. But the other one,

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Speaker 5: we you know, grew up around and were around him

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Speaker 5: a lot, and I sort of wonder like, did that

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Speaker 5: was that why the medical stuff in particular, you know,

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Speaker 5: but we'll never know. My sister was a nurse for

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Speaker 5: a time. It's very common that people who engage these

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Speaker 5: behaviors gravitate towards medical professions. But yeah, I mean she's

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Speaker 5: she's incredibly smart, she's a very she comes off as

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Speaker 5: a very warm person, very charming, seems very caring, and

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Speaker 5: so it's not something where anything about her initially or

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Speaker 5: in a brief interaction would strike.

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Speaker 4: You as off or scary. Right, I have the crazy,

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Speaker 4: I have the preconceived notion.

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Speaker 1: I will admit that like batshit crazy across the board

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Speaker 1: from like the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I think that my instinct would be to think, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: they must have gone through some big thing that made

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Speaker 2: them have this big wound that they're trying to feel.

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Speaker 2: But it seems like that's not that's often not necessarily

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Speaker 2: the case. I mean, that doesn't mean they don't have

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Speaker 2: some obviously some.

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Speaker 4: We all have.

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Speaker 2: We've a lot avoid you know, but like it's not

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Speaker 2: and you can speak to this more because you interview

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Speaker 2: people for your podcast, but many of these people just

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Speaker 2: have kind of normal childhoods, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean it certainly like there isn't anything specific that

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Speaker 5: stands out, and you know, there are these things.

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Speaker 4: Right that people deal with where you know, if you

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Speaker 4: talk about.

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Speaker 5: Like dissociative identity disorder, right Like, that is very very

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Speaker 5: strongly linked to really extreme childhood trauma under the age

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Speaker 5: of five. Right Like, we actually sort of like do

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Speaker 5: know the origin of it, and and that's something that

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Speaker 5: we know we explore this season and is pretty common

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Speaker 5: in my childs and by proxy survivors as you can imagine.

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Speaker 2: Just shout up, because this season of your podcast is

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Speaker 2: about Joe, who we've had on our podcast, So everybody

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Speaker 2: should we are.

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Speaker 5: We are following their journey and and yeah, so you

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Speaker 5: know we do have there are certain things where you

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Speaker 5: sort of know that childhood trauma is a huge factor.

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Speaker 5: And certainly then if you talk sort of across the board,

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Speaker 5: you talk about things like the ACE score, you know,

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Speaker 5: the adverse childhood experience, right any any sort of number

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Speaker 5: of difficulties in childhood sort of add up to more

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Speaker 5: likelihood for bad outcomes as an adult.

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Speaker 4: Right So, there are these connections that we know about.

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Speaker 5: But with Munchhausen biproxy behaviors or munchhause and behaviors, you know,

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Speaker 5: where people are doing it to themselves, there is no

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Speaker 5: known correlation. And I feel like just as often as

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Speaker 5: I hear about sometimes you hear about perpetrators that really

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Speaker 5: had rough childhoods, because unfortunately, it's not that uncommon for

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Speaker 5: people to be victims of abuse or have difficult childhoods. Right,

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Speaker 5: That's not an uncommon experience, unfortunately, So you're going to

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Speaker 5: see some of that population that does. But there are

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Speaker 5: just as many that I've heard of, like my sister,

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Speaker 5: like Hope you Bar's case, which we covered in the

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Speaker 5: first season of the show, where by all appearances, they

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Speaker 5: had a really nice childhood and they had, you know,

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Speaker 5: loving parents that are still married. And you know, no

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Speaker 5: parents are perfect. I'm a parent.

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Speaker 4: I know this, you know.

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Speaker 5: And again, like you never know what sort of experiences

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Speaker 5: a person might have been through that you don't know about,

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Speaker 5: And I always sort of you that that will be

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Speaker 5: one of my enduring questions, I think probably forever with

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Speaker 5: my sisters, did some other thing happen that just none

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Speaker 5: of us know about. I can't say that it didn't, right,

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I wasn't with her every second, but

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Speaker 5: certainly certainly there's nothing that that sticks out, and I

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Speaker 5: think that that makes it particularly baffling. And yeah, and

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Speaker 5: as to what you said about sort of like the

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Speaker 5: that that it's a common assumption I think, where it's

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Speaker 5: just like oh, and sometimes that's you know, the sometimes

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Speaker 5: the media portrayals do not help very much with that

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Speaker 5: of like, oh, you think this person would just be

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Speaker 5: this like lunatic that you would see coming, and I

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Speaker 5: mean it indeed, if you scratch the surface of their life,

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Speaker 5: I mean there is an unbelievable level of chaos. Like

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Speaker 5: one thing that you know, I get asked sometimes is like, oh,

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Speaker 5: is this behavior because it's sort of known to express

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Speaker 5: itself with medical stuff, Like is it confined to medical things?

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Speaker 5: Is it only they're lying about their illness or they're

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Speaker 5: lying about their child's illness, And no. In fact, like

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Speaker 5: deception is the theme and that permeates everything. So you

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Speaker 5: see a lot of you know, lying about their employment qualifications,

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Speaker 5: lying about their level of education, a lot of infidelity

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Speaker 5: and sort of you know, big sort of deceptions around that.

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Speaker 4: And it tends to be the sort.

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Speaker 5: Of very extreme behaviors, right, So it's not like not

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Speaker 5: sort of in the kind of normal not so much

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Speaker 5: in the normal range of like things that people lie about, right,

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Speaker 5: because people like everyone lies, everyone FIBs, everyone exaggerates, everyone

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Speaker 5: exaggerates that the doctor sometimes, you know, like and sometimes

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Speaker 5: women feel like they need to exaggerate that the doctor,

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Speaker 5: so the doctor will take them seriously because very real

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Speaker 5: biases there. And I just want to say this, like

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Speaker 5: these things fall very, very very far outside that extreme.

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Speaker 5: But you definitely, in all of the cases I have

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Speaker 5: looked at, you just see deception. I mean, they're just

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Speaker 5: they are surrounded by chaos, but they can appear very normal.

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Speaker 5: And that is the ones who appear the most normal

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Speaker 5: are the ones who are the most effective at it,

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Speaker 5: and they are I think the scariest.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like there's just a lot of

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Speaker 2: overlap in general with antise social personality tendencies obviously psychopathy, narcissism, machiabelianism.

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Speaker 2: Do we have like diagnoses for any of these people?

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Speaker 4: Well, so this is a.

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Speaker 5: Complicated This is a complicated area that I have learned

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Speaker 5: a lot about and talking to the experts, and I

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Speaker 5: have very mixed feelings about, and I know a lot

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Speaker 5: of survivors have very mixed feelings about.

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Speaker 4: Because there is and you know, you.

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Speaker 5: All will be familiar with the DSM, which is the

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Speaker 5: you know, sort of called the psychiatrist's Bible, right and

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Speaker 5: it's the big list of like all the things that

394
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Speaker 5: can be wrong with you, right, it's a big list

395
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Speaker 5: of all the psychiatric.

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Speaker 2: Was that people in a room decided and.

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Speaker 5: Yes, correct, correct, And that is in you know, that

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Speaker 5: is made by humans.

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Speaker 4: It is tied up in you know, always change insurance.

400
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 5: It evolves. It's like it's there. There are not you know,

401
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 5: the motives are. And again this is not to cast

402
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Speaker 5: dispersions on any of my colleagues or you know, our

403
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Speaker 5: friends and the psychiatric professions.

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Speaker 4: I have immense respect for them.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, this is not a perfect it's not a

406
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Speaker 5: perfect book, right, And it does evolve. And there are

407
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Speaker 5: many things that go in the DSM and come out

408
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Speaker 5: of the DSM. And so there is and there is

409
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Speaker 5: factitious disorder impost on. Another is the official diagnosis in

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Speaker 5: the DSM for someone who engages in Munchausen by proxy abuse. Right,

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Speaker 5: So this is someone who fabricates, exaggerates, or induces illness

412
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Speaker 5: in their child, for usually in their child. They can

413
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Speaker 5: also be in a vulnerable adult but in another person

414
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Speaker 5: for the purposes of intrinsic that intrinsic reward of emotional gratification,

415
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Speaker 5: for sympathy to be admired by others, et cetera. So

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Speaker 5: that is the DSM diagnosis paraphrased obviously there. But I

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Speaker 5: you know, I struggle with it being a diagnosis because

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Speaker 5: I think where I see it used in the media

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Speaker 5: and also in court. You know, really came up during

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Speaker 5: the Kowalski trial that was a huge Munchausen related case

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Speaker 5: that played out in court last fall, where people are saying, oh,

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Speaker 5: this person wasn't diagnosed with this disorder, therefore they weren't

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Speaker 5: engaging in this behavior.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's not cracked, right.

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Speaker 5: You don't have someone come and do a And unfortunately

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Speaker 5: this happens all the time in court where they will

427
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Speaker 5: bring someone in to do a psychological evaluation. And this

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Speaker 5: is what happened in the case of Beata Kowalski, who

429
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Speaker 5: is the mom in the Kwalski case, which people may

430
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 5: know of from that Netflix film Take Care of Maya.

431
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Speaker 5: And you know, they had a psychological evaluator that came

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Speaker 5: in when that case was active and said, oh, she

433
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Speaker 5: does not have Munchausen biproxy. That's not that person's job

434
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Speaker 5: to say Munchausen biproxy is a pattern of abuse. You're

435
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 5: looking for evidence of abuse. You're looking for evidence of deception,

436
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 5: which in that case, there was a tremendous, tremendous amount

437
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 5: of evidence that very severe, life threatening abuse was taking place.

438
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 4: In that case.

439
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 5: And so you saw it brought up in the trial

440
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 5: of like the you know, plaintif's attorney, and of course

441
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 5: the trial was not you know, Beata tragically died by

442
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 5: suicide during that investigation and then the family sued the hospital.

443
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 5: And during that case, which is the case that played

444
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 5: out in court, you know, you have things like the

445
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 5: plaintiffs attorney in that case, you know, grilling medical experts

446
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 5: about their knowledge of the DSM, right, And so that's

447
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 5: where it can get just extremely complicated and confusing for

448
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 5: people because it's not something that even if someone has

449
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 5: it and gets an official diagnosis, and people do not

450
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 5: get an official diagnosis outside of being held accountable in

451
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,959
Speaker 5: either the family courts or the criminal courts. So it's

452
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 5: it's much like you know, some of those things you mentioned, right,

453
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 5: like narcisstic personality disorder, that's not a diagnosis people tend

454
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 5: to get because people who have it like aren't seeking

455
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 5: treatment for it, you know, like they.

456
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 4: Find no issue with it. So this is very much.

457
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 4: It's the same thing where.

458
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 5: You don't see people taking accountability for their actions, even

459
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 5: when there is a tremendous amount of evidence, even when

460
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 5: they are being sent to jail, you know, like in

461
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 5: the Lacy Spears case, which is another well known case

462
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 5: of a child who unfortunately her you know, son died

463
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 5: because of her as she still maintained her you know,

464
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 5: in a sence, that's very.

465
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 4: Common, So you don't so I wonder for.

466
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 5: All these reasons about sort of its utility as as

467
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 5: a sort of mental health diagnosis, because it's very, very

468
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 5: hard to treat, and you just don't usually see people

469
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 5: getting a diagnosis.

470
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: I did not remember that there was actually a diagnosis

471
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: in the deism, which is a little bit surprising. Yeah,

472
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: because the point is the behavior and the like actions

473
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: that are being taken. It's not really that relevant what

474
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: specific disorder they have because a lot of the characteristics

475
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: you're describing overlap with what we've heard from people who are,

476
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: you know, experts on psychopathy, which how much can you

477
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: really be an expert on psychopathy? That's a whole other

478
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 2: question that, you know, but in general, it seems like

479
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: these are people who much like someone who maybe is

480
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: considered to be a psychopath or considered to be on

481
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: the narcissism spectrum.

482
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: So interesting because like they're the opposite of antisocial almost

483
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: because they're feeding off social sympathy.

484
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: Antisocial is just the name. It's I know, I know,

485
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: but like but.

486
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: Like it's you know, I think of people who like

487
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: murder people and who do shit in the in the background,

488
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: and it's just so odd that they their whole purpose

489
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: is to get attention.

490
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: People with narcissistic personality, and of course they love attention.

491
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: It's just it's interesting seeing the differences in how people

492
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: choose to get, yes, that attention and choose to get

493
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: those like hives of validation or whatever.

494
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: Did you see your sister as a narcissist when you

495
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: were what all was that? No?

496
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 4: I think all of that came much later, And you're

497
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 4: right that.

498
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 5: Actually, one of the things that we do know about

499
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 5: manchas my proxy behaviors is that there is a lot

500
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 5: of crossover with those cluster B personality disorders, so borderline

501
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 5: narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, and also very high

502
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 5: instance of severe depression. So actually, you know, I I

503
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 5: do think you're right what you said there about you know,

504
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 5: there is like the sort of antisocial I think part

505
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 5: of it is to my mind that it's a female

506
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 5: expression of it, right, So it it does sort of

507
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 5: look like and I do think internally that this this

508
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 5: may be treated the experience and you know, perpetrators are

509
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 5: a bit of a black box, right because you can't

510
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 5: trust anything they say.

511
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 4: The whole thing.

512
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 5: Is being you know, these elaborate deceptions, right. So you know,

513
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 5: I interviewed one in the first season and I sort

514
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 5: of I think about that conversation all the time, and

515
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 5: I'm like, was any of that true?

516
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: True?

517
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 5: But like I do think, you know, there seems to

518
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 5: be like where we can find maybe some empathy for

519
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 5: people that are going through this, even though obviously the

520
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 5: behavior is horrific, is it. I do think that it

521
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 5: is like in some ways that I think it can

522
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 5: be seen as like a bid for connection, right, Like

523
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 5: I think that it is this almost like it's almost

524
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 5: like nothing can make this person feel loved, and I

525
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 5: think that is really sad, right, So they have to

526
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 5: keep sort of upping the ante to get their emotional

527
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 5: needs met, and it's really sad, and people cause profound

528
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 5: harm when they can't get their emotional needs met.

529
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 4: And I think that you know, we we.

530
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 5: Know there's a very high instance of female perpetrators in

531
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 5: this form of abuse, like ninety six percent, and I

532
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 5: think it is a very female expression of number one

533
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 5: sort of abuse of power. I think people abuse power

534
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 5: where they can find power.

535
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 4: And one of the only.

536
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 5: Places in our culture that we give women unchecked power

537
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 5: is over their children, right, So I think that manifestation

538
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 5: makes sense. And then I think, you know, I only

539
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 5: recently learned this term and it just so clicked with

540
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 5: me of the vulnerable narcissist, right, which is that like

541
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 5: more female expression, and that more like someone who's always

542
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 5: having a crisis and that's how they get attention, someone

543
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 5: who's just like has that like extraordinary neediness where they

544
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 5: can just never sort of get enough, like they can

545
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 5: never just get their needs met. And I think we

546
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 5: tend to think of narcis as like sort of the

547
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 5: grandiose narcissist, right, and like the male version of it

548
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 5: of like you know, the CEO of a company who

549
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 5: has like very you know, who really really lacks empathy

550
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 5: for his employees and his family, and that's kind of

551
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 5: how we think of it, and certainly what they share

552
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 5: is a profound lack of empathy, because I think these

553
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 5: perpetrators can often be very good at performing empathy, at

554
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 5: performing being caring.

555
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 4: Right, because that's part of the whole ruse.

556
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 5: But in fact, I mean, when you think about what

557
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 5: would have to be going on with you internally to

558
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 5: be able to do that to anyone, much less your

559
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 5: own child, who's probably the last person that most of

560
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 5: us would ever ever ever harm in such a sort

561
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 5: of prolonged, planned out, strategic way, Certainly the empathy levels

562
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 5: I mean are a very startling low. And I don't know,

563
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 5: I don't know enough about psychopathy, and I feel like

564
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 5: every time I listen to something new about psychopathy, I

565
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 5: get more confused about it rather.

566
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: Than it is clear.

567
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 5: There seems to be just like a tremendous amount of

568
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 5: disagreement about whether this is like a diagnosable thing, right

569
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 5: in a psychopath. But certainly, like I think what we

570
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 5: think about as being a psycho path of like, or

571
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 5: being a sociopath of like, not having that normal level

572
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 5: of ability to connect and ability to empathize and ability

573
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 5: to like understand that other people have feelings like certainly

574
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 5: that track right.

575
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: And us and you hear a lot about impulsivity and

576
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: like having this chaos but also having this charisma. Like

577
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: those factors seem to overlap. It sounds like yeah, it's just.

578
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 5: Like yeah, and sort of the mirroring behavior that you

579
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 5: talk about, like that people talk about sometimes with psychopaths,

580
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 5: that like they're able to sort of like yeah, the

581
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 5: being able to sort of mask the behaviors I think,

582
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 5: and like sort of observe how other people are.

583
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 4: And like that's how I'm supposed to be.

584
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 5: And I think you certainly see that with like what

585
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 5: they're mirroring is a sympathetic figure of a sick mom

586
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 5: or excuse me, of a mom with a sick child. Right,

587
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 5: they're mirroring that behavior because they know what that behavior

588
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 5: looks like. But then in fact, you know, they understand

589
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 5: that they're the person who's causing the harm.

590
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: It's interesting hearing your perspective on this because you are

591
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: someone who knew the perpetrator in this case from childhood,

592
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: which is I think the part of the life that

593
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: many of us wonder about, like what are they like

594
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: during that period? How did this begin? Just to clarify

595
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: you kind of mentioned this earlier, but just to clarify

596
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: for audience members, A Munchausen syndrome is when you make

597
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: yourself appear to be sick, right, and Munchausen by proxy

598
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: is when you make other people sick or appear to

599
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: be sick.

600
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: Correct.

601
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: So your sister it sounds like, had some Munchausen syndrome

602
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: growing up. And is that common that it kind of

603
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: starts with themselves and then it goes outward.

604
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really common. It's not It's not one hundred

605
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 5: percent like I have seen. There's a portrator we talked

606
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 5: about in season two who didn't have any history of

607
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 5: those behaviors on herself. But it's certainly it's certainly extremely common.

608
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 5: You know, Hope you Bara had an eight year long

609
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 5: cancer hoax, you know, and you just sort of he

610
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 5: hear a lot of there's a lot of fake cancer

611
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 5: running around in these in these cases and just the

612
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 5: sort of like always a crisis, always the most complicated,

613
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 5: always the most rare, So a lot of times that

614
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 5: that does predate their children. I just want to say,

615
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 5: with my sister man I've talked about her case extensively

616
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 5: on the show.

617
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: But she has not been charged with a crime.

618
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 5: I refer to her as a perpetrator because I believe

619
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 5: there is a tremendous amount of evidence there. But I

620
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,479
Speaker 5: just always want to make sure to include.

621
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: That cop yet it right, I have to ask, how

622
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: did she appear to be six months pregnant?

623
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 5: You know, this was in an era, this was let's see,

624
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 5: this was sort of in that period right before social media,

625
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: so it was like the mid oughts, and it was

626
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 5: before we all had iPhones. So there aren't really a

627
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 5: ton of pictures, and I wish there were because I

628
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: feel like I would go over them with a fine

629
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: tooth comb.

630
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 4: And I don't don't know is the answer.

631
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,959
Speaker 5: I have my memories of it, but my memories are

632
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 5: very you know, it's a very strange thing happens to

633
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 5: your memory when you realize you're remembering something that was

634
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 5: not real. She appeared pregnant, but again, like as anyone

635
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 5: with a body will know, uh, it's not impossible to

636
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 5: appear pregnant when you're not you know, some some of

637
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 5: us some people have bellies, that's and baldies are great,

638
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 5: and you know, like it's not impossible to look look

639
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 5: pregnant when you're not especially, I think if you're wearing

640
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 5: maternity clothes, which she was, and sort of, you know,

641
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 5: and I think it just like when I think about

642
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 5: my experience of being around her. And I was living

643
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 5: in New York at the time, and my family's out

644
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 5: here in the Pacific Northwest, so I wasn't around her

645
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 5: all the time. I was only saw her, you know,

646
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 5: a handful of times during that time when she was

647
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 5: allegedly pregnant. My most vivid memory is of seeing her

648
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 5: at the holidays right before she allegedly lost the alleged pregnancy,

649
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: you know, which where she was supposed to be about

650
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 5: six months in right, And I remember seeing her, and

651
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 5: I remember her looking pregnant, and I remember her saying

652
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 5: to me, you know, oh, put my put your hand

653
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 5: on the belly and feel the baby's kick. And I did,

654
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 5: and I thought I felt a baby kick. And I

655
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 5: don't think I was suffering from delusions. But I don't

656
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 5: know how to explain that moment.

657
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: I heard you tell that story and I put my

658
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: hand on my stomach and like tried to sort of

659
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: recreate it. And I feel like you can kind of

660
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: like make something happen, you know, you.

661
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 4: Could like twitch a muscle or something.

662
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 5: And I mean also, like I was in my twenties,

663
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 5: I had not been around other pregnant people like I didn't.

664
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 5: I think now, having gone through two pregnancies, I might

665
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 5: be a little more wise to her.

666
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 4: But it just goes to show you.

667
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 5: I mean, believing something is real is very powerful. And

668
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 5: I was not questioning that she was pregnant.

669
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: Why would Yeah, you don't ever lead you to question that,

670
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: you know?

671
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean unfortunately now I sort of sometimes

672
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 5: do question and things when there's no reason to question them, Right,

673
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 5: That's sort of something I have to watch out for

674
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 5: of like, especially in the years you know, after this,

675
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 5: I sort of had I went through some very sort

676
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 5: of paranoid periods of like, oh my god, is everything

677
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 5: gonna you know, I think once you had that experience

678
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 5: of the walls falling down at you and you're like,

679
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 5: you know on the Truman Show.

680
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 4: It's the call experience, like looking like what you said,

681
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 4: like looking back and just being like what was real?

682
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: What wasn't? Probably most of it wasn't like that is

683
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: so I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance and that experience.

684
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it really, it does a number on you for sure.

685
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 5: And I think what people don't realize is because we

686
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 5: don't question people and nor should we, right, Like, I'm

687
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 5: not advocating for us questioning people who are you know,

688
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 5: we don't question people who are having a health crisis.

689
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 5: We don't question people when they tell they're pregnant. We

690
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 5: don't question people when they say their child is sick, right,

691
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 5: I mean that would feel cruel, especially in that case,

692
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 5: to question a child, someone who has a sick child,

693
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 5: and our hearts automatically go go out to them. And

694
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 5: I think too, there's this really complicated thing that I

695
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 5: think about a lot because people sometimes bring this up

696
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 5: as sort of a criticism of like the very existence

697
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 5: of Munchausen biproxy of like, well, medical misogyny is very real,

698
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 5: and people do question women about their experiences and their pain,

699
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 5: and that is very true, right, Like I think women,

700
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 5: you know, even though we are you know, there's a

701
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 5: lot of data support that women actually have a higher

702
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 5: pain tolerance, still our pain is taken less seriously when

703
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 5: we go to the hospital, and like there, I mean

704
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 5: there's just like there's there's mountains of evidence showing that

705
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 5: that is the case women, you know, we're not included

706
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 5: in clinical trials until the nineteen nineties or something like that.

707
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 5: I mean, there's just there's so much that to support that,

708
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 5: and right, like so that even sort of makes it.

709
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 4: I think then you're like, oh, I.

710
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 5: Don't want to be discounting, like as a woman, You're like, oh,

711
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 5: I don't want to question if a woman is telling

712
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 5: me they're in pain or they're sick or.

713
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 4: Whatever, Like I don't want to be that.

714
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 5: I don't want to be a misogynist, and I don't

715
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 5: want to be like under undercut their pain because you

716
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 5: know people are going to do that to women just

717
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 5: sort of as a as a rule. So I think

718
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 5: it's incredibly complicated and and yeah, I mean it just

719
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 5: really it's very very disorienting to have, and it is.

720
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 5: It is a very cult like experience. I that when

721
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 5: I first read that comparison of the survivors in particular,

722
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 5: you know, who are obviously raised by a perpetrator from birth,

723
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 5: really have to go through sort of a cult deprogramming

724
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 5: experience after you know, the revelation of the abuse. That

725
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 5: ranks so true to me because I was like, that

726
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 5: is what it's like. It's like being around a cult leader.

727
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 5: It's like that person has the ability to distort reality.

728
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 4: And I would remember like.

729
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: Sort of, you know, especially increasingly as we got to

730
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 5: this place where, you know, and we became I became

731
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 5: a strange from Megan fourteen years ago when the first

732
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 5: investigation into her older child happened, and.

733
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 4: That investigation didn't come to anything much, but it we

734
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 4: you know, I remember like as we.

735
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 5: Were trying to sort of put these pieces together and

736
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 5: figure out why we were feeling so unsettled, what we

737
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 5: were looking at, what was happening, you know, without any

738
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 5: of this background about michusby proxy, I remembered that I

739
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 5: would be like, Okay, no, wait, my mom was at

740
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 5: that appointment with her, and that's not what the doctor said.

741
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 5: But now she's telling me the doctor's pushing her to

742
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 5: do the surgery, Like that can't be right. And then

743
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 5: I would sort of try and talk to her about it,

744
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 5: and she would explain it, and I would be like, oh, okay,

745
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: that all makes sense, and then I'd walk away and

746
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 5: I'd be like, no, we none of that makes sense,

747
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 5: and it just like a sort of face just like

748
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 5: unbelievable ability to like the like down was up when

749
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 5: you were talking to her, you know, And I'm part

750
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 5: of that's because I was you know, loved her and

751
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 5: that was my sister, and of course I was going

752
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 5: to want to believe. I didn't want to believe she

753
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 5: was doing these things. It was a horrible revelation that

754
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 5: she was responsible for this, and I, you know, pushed

755
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 5: that a way as hard as I could until I

756
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 5: couldn't anymore.

757
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: I want to get into the investigations, But how did

758
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: you find out that her pregnancy and miscarriage were face.

759
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's one of those things that it unraveled quickly,

760
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 5: and then it also sort of took years to unravel.

761
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 5: So my parents and I were both out of town,

762
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 5: and again this was such a huge part of the

763
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 5: pattern that it was the most you know, dramatic timing

764
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 5: of like everyone's out of town, so no one can

765
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 5: come to the hospital with her. And also right so,

766
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 5: you know, it's New Year's and she calls all of

767
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 5: us and says, you know, I went into labor. It's

768
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 5: too early, you know, I'm going to the hospital, and

769
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 5: just so basically sort of narrates this whole experience, and

770
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 5: my parents were trying to get a flight maybe, you know,

771
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 5: so we're just like, there's these couple of days where

772
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 5: this is all going down and then eventually, you know.

773
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 4: She she loses the babies.

774
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 5: And that's so she's kind of walking us through that experience.

775
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 5: I mean I remember talking to her and she was

776
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 5: saying she was in the hospital. She was saying, like,

777
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 5: my water's broken, but they're like turning me upside down,

778
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 5: and you know, so that I mean, I don't remember

779
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: all the details. Of course, I knew nothing about pregnancies,

780
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 5: so I to this day, I don't know something really

781
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 5: smart sounds like yeah, yeah, I kind of made a

782
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 5: joke about it and like there, you know, but but yeah, so,

783
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 5: I mean, this devastating news and she lost she's lost

784
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 5: the babies, and you know, she'd said that her fiance.

785
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 5: We knew that he had had to go to a

786
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 5: different state for work and that he was in his

787
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 5: home state for a while, and so that was already

788
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 5: you know, happening, and so she was also sort of

789
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 5: narrating this like, oh, he's he got on a flight,

790
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 5: like okay, the flight had to be grounded, and now

791
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 5: he's driving, and it was this whole sort of odyssey

792
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 5: of like also him getting back to be with her,

793
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 5: and so this happens, and you know, so in my understanding,

794
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 5: we've lost these twin girls that were you know, we're

795
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 5: already thinking they had names or I was expecting to

796
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 5: be an auntie, like the loss was real. And then

797
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 5: I get a call from my father a few days later,

798
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 5: and all I really remember about that conversation because I

799
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 5: think my brain just got really flooded during it. But

800
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 5: all I remember about that conversation was sort of, you know,

801
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 5: something about Megan's story of losing this pregnancy as not

802
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 5: adding up, and we're not sure that this pregnancy was real.

803
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 5: And I think initially I just couldn't sort of take

804
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 5: that in even I would just was, you know, you

805
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 5: just it was like what my parents, you know, I

806
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 5: later found out they they had gone to her house

807
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 5: and there was a whole situation with her house where

808
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 5: like she hadn't been paying her rent and her electricity

809
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 5: was turned off, and it was like a whole horrible

810
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 5: scene there. And they had seen some intake paperwork from

811
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 5: the hospital on her kitchen table or some thing, and it.

812
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 4: Said that she'd been admitted.

813
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 5: For dehydration on the day that she said she was

814
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 5: in the hospital losing the pregnancy, so you wouldn't be

815
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 5: you wouldn't have hospital paperwork with nothing about this major

816
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 5: event that had happened, right, So they that was kind

817
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 5: of their first like big, Okay, something's off, and obviously

818
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 5: I think just the state of her apartment. They didn't

819
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 5: really she's been living like that. Just something was obviously

820
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 5: very clearly wrong in a way that like I just

821
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 5: wasn't seeing her enough and wasn't sort of cluded enough

822
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 5: to recognize. And then I talked to her best friend,

823
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 5: who had been very close with growing up, because she

824
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 5: had told me that her best friend had taken her

825
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 5: to the hospital.

826
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 4: So I called this friend and you know, said, what's

827
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: going on with this whole thing?

828
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 5: And we just we were close growing up, we just

829
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 5: hadn't talked in a while, and she said, oh no,

830
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 5: she told me that her fiance had taken her to

831
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 5: the hospital, and again narrated the whole thing. He said,

832
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 5: they said goodbye to the babies together, they took pictures

833
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 5: with it, you know. And then I think my parents

834
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 5: then got in touch with him, and he was like,

835
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 5: I don't think any of this was real, Like she,

836
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 5: you know, I broke up with her and she told

837
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 5: me then she was pregnant the next day. And so

838
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 5: I talked to him actually a couple of years ago

839
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 5: when I had started making the show, to just like

840
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 5: kind of get his side of things, not not to

841
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 5: use on the show, but just to sort of clarify.

842
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: And so so that was when I I sort of overtime.

843
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 4: I was like, because when we confronted her on it.

844
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 5: You know, she sort of took this very again, very

845
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 5: common I've come to find out pattern of deny and

846
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 5: then minimize and then project blame.

847
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 4: Right, So at first, no, no, no, of course I

848
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 4: never do that.

849
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 5: And then of course, like you know, you told us

850
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 5: all different stories, like it's just very clear that like

851
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 5: you're not you're lying about how this well okay, well

852
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 5: I had lost the pregnancy earlier, but I didn't want

853
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 5: to tell anybody, and I was so embarrassed because you know,

854
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 5: my fiance had left me. And then it's sort of

855
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 5: like and then I just don't think I pressed her

856
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 5: much further.

857
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah that's exhausting.

858
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's really you know, and she

859
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 5: would always like she would have a big reaction, she

860
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 5: would cry, it would you know, she would do anything

861
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 5: to sort of like project the blame.

862
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 4: So it was all him, and I remember being really

863
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 4: mad at him and just being like, yeah, like that

864
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 4: guy's an asshole.

865
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 5: It's definitely all his fault. And I'm like, like what

866
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 5: leap of logic that I had to take to like

867
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 5: make it his fault? This poor guy, you know who.

868
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 5: I came to find out like the reason he broke

869
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 5: up with her was because he had a young son

870
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 5: and he was worried about her with his son. So

871
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 5: he definitely did the right thing. And I think, actually

872
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 5: he's a he's a pretty upstanding guy when I look

873
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 5: back on the whole situation, and so, you know, but

874
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 5: I just think it's like you just you don't want

875
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 5: I didn't want to believe that she would have done

876
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 5: that to us, that she would lie to all of us,

877
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 5: and like I was really you know, she really put

878
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 5: me through something horrible, and I just didn't want to

879
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 5: face that. So I think I tried to talk to her,

880
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 5: like I'm sure like two am, when we were like

881
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 5: out of the bar or something like what.

882
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 4: I just you know, like that's when that stuff comes

883
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 4: to tends to come up. She visited me once in

884
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 4: New York. And that was the time. I remember kind

885
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: of trying to talk to her about it and she

886
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 4: just cried and and then I just, you know, I

887
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 4: just let it go.

888
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 5: And she had an amazing ability to sort of turn

889
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 5: the page and just act like none of it had

890
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 5: ever happened.

891
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 4: And then she met her now husband.

892
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 5: And she was still working and she had you know,

893
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 5: this big beautiful wedding at like the you know, Fairmont

894
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 5: in Seattle, and so then we were just like all right,

895
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 5: we're all moving on, you know, which seems nuts to

896
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 5: me in retrospect.

897
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 2: A part of you that believed the sort of the

898
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: stuff she was saying at that point like, oh, maybe

899
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: she did have it earlier and just yeah, yeah.

900
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 4: I think so.

901
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 5: I mean I think I think at the time, yeah,

902
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 5: just because I really wanted to believe that, and I

903
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 5: was sort of like, yeah, okay, like you you didn't

904
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 5: know how to tell us.

905
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 4: But I mean, of course, like when.

906
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 5: I really it's like, it doesn't it doesn't withstand much scrutiny, right,

907
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 5: because when you really think about that of like, okay,

908
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 5: you let everyone have a baby shower, and you were

909
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 5: telling me that feel the baby's kick, and yeah, you

910
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 5: weren't pregnant. Like even if you did lose it six

911
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 5: weeks in or whatever, three months in and you didn't

912
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 5: want to tell us, that's still extremely deceptive, creepy behavior.

913
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: I can see how you would like figure that out

914
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: while you're in the shower washing your hair, and then

915
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 1: you talk to her and you're like, but wait, maybe

916
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: it was normal, and then you like go, It's like

917
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: I can see how you would bounce back and forth

918
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: between the two. And I think that's why it's so

919
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: important to sometimes get alone time from people when they're manipulating.

920
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 5: You, yeah, yeah, and talk to other people who are

921
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 5: having the same experience with that person, right, because I think,

922
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 5: like especially you know, for like when I talk to survivors,

923
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 5: like that's their parent, Like the way you were wired

924
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 5: to respond to a parent is so deep and even

925
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 5: for me, you know, with a sibling, like that's my sibling,

926
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 5: Like it's that's her. Like the ways that you're intertwined

927
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 5: with that person are just going to like affect you

928
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 5: in ways that you can't really you can't really turn off,

929
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 5: you know. So I think retro it's not terribly surprising

930
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 5: actually that I was willing to be like, sure, sounds plausible,

931
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 5: let's keep it moving.

932
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: I could totally see being like, oh, it must she

933
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: must have been in a bad place, Like it seems

934
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: very plausible to me that you would believe it and

935
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 2: just move on with her. And also because like even

936
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: when it's not your family, Like I think about the

937
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: you know, self proclaimed profit who manipulated my mom, Like

938
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: part of what was going on in her head was

939
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: surely nobody would invent all of this stuff, like that

940
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: would be too crazy of a thing to do. So

941
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: there must be some truth to this person. I think,

942
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: on some level, you know, unless we've like grew up

943
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: in a really you know and an environment that made

944
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 2: us very cynical of others, on some level we want

945
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 2: to trust other people, and it's such a big leap,

946
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: especially especially when it's someone we love to then be

947
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 2: like they have completely manipulated me and fabricated an unthinkable

948
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: thing to fabricate, Like it's that's like too much to process,

949
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: Like of course it takes time to figure it out,

950
00:46:59,760 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: you know.

951
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think you're really right about and

952
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 4: I sort of look at who you know.

953
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: I think the extraordinary thing about these cases is and

954
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 5: where they do sort of also kind of really have

955
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 5: a strong parallel with cult experiences, is that there's such

956
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 5: a wide swath of destruction. You know, you see so

957
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 5: many people getting pulled into these things, and you see

958
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 5: sort of like doctors crossing boundaries they wouldn't normally cross,

959
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 5: and like they you know, people just getting pulled in

960
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 5: to these these things.

961
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 4: And when I look at like.

962
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 5: What the people who are victims either primarily you know,

963
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 5: obviously the children and my chil'st my proxy is the

964
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 5: primary victims, but all the sort of like tertiary victims.

965
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 5: When I look at the people who get pulled in,

966
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 5: it's people who like are really kind and who have

967
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 5: a very positive view of other people and who are

968
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 5: very like sort of pro social, you know, people who

969
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 5: are optimists. Right, It's like people who want to help.

970
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 5: Like that's who gets pulled in, and that's who gets

971
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 5: taken advantage of. Because I think, like, yeah, maybe if

972
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 5: you are sort of more of a like much more

973
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 5: of a cynic and sort of have a little bit

974
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 5: more of that like negative view of humanity and not

975
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 5: even in like I don't even say that in like

976
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 5: a negative way, like my husband's sort of more that way,

977
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 5: and that's what makes us a good match, because I

978
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 5: mean I am, like, even despite my life experience, I'm

979
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 5: still like, you know, I really do try and think

980
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 5: of the most positive take on like why a person

981
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 5: could be doing the thing right. You know, I don't

982
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 5: immediately go to like, I mean, I have my like

983
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 5: little sort of moments of paranoia, but yeah, I think,

984
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 5: I mean that's very much human nature and certainly like

985
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 5: a temperament issue, right, Like if you are a person

986
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 5: that that tends to believe in people and want that connection, like,

987
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 5: you can be very susceptible to that, which makes it

988
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 5: sort of extra sad.

989
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: So you know, you were talking to me earlier about

990
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: how families that have someone in them who has Munchausen

991
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: by proxy or just Munchausen, who's exhibiting these behaviors and

992
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: these abusive, you know, manipulations, it can be so cult like.

993
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 2: So why don't we just talk about that for a second.

994
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really fascinated with just thinking about dysfunctional families

995
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: as small cults. You know, we talk about relationships a lot,

996
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: abusive relationships, how those are two people cults, But you know,

997
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: families can hold some pretty wild beliefs some pretty wild secrets,

998
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: and that's fine. You know, families aren't going to be perfect.

999
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: But when you have somebody so wildly in the red,

1000
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: it's just such a disaster and you know, people can

1001
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: literally die.

1002
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 2: Children Andrew's sister's husband's family double down in support. Yes,

1003
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: So that to me just feels like the exact same

1004
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: thing that happens when a doomsday passes by and the

1005
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: world does not end. So true, you just you know,

1006
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: like and it I've actually been feeling thinking about this

1007
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: a lot in terms of like political realities and what

1008
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: we are and are not willing to accept depending on

1009
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 2: you know, what we see and what we want to see.

1010
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 2: And it's been making me feel a little bit hopeless,

1011
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: to be honest, because I'm like, people just really can't

1012
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: if they're not ready to shift their thinking and shift

1013
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: their belief system on something that is core to who

1014
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: they are, core to their their life and their comfort

1015
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 2: and stability, there's nothing you can really do to get

1016
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: them there. Yeah, it's you know, it requires a myriad,

1017
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: myriad factors and it requires them to be ready, and yeah,

1018
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: it's the same exact thing in cults. It's like you

1019
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: can tell someone they're in a cult all you want.

1020
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: Maybe sometimes that works if they're ready, but most of

1021
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 2: the time we see that that does not work in

1022
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: it in fact makes them double down on their beliefs.

1023
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: And that, to me is like one of the scariest

1024
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: things about humanity is that it doesn't really matter if

1025
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: what you believe is wrong, that the facts aren't enough

1026
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: to convince it.

1027
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you believe it is all that matters.

1028
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: And that brings us back to if you believe you're pregnant,

1029
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: your body can act like it's pregnant. If you believe

1030
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: a fact, you can only see that fact and be

1031
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: ignoring all of the other information. Right, So, just our

1032
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 1: psychology is programmed to be very small, I think. And

1033
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: now we're living in a time where the world's just

1034
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: exploding in front of like our brains are like what,

1035
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: So I think it's it's an exciting time to be alive.

1036
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if history continues and the world

1037
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: doesn't explode, this will definitely be what is considered the

1038
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: most interesting time in history for our brains. But it's

1039
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: it's a it's a really big shift. So yeah, I

1040
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah.

1041
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna hold out hope and force

1042
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 2: myself to try to believe that we can change our

1043
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 2: beliefs and we can slowly shift, you know, people toward

1044
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: goodness and truth slowly over time, because that's the otherwise,

1045
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's just too dark. I need to believe

1046
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: in that. So that's the that's the cold time going

1047
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: to choose.

1048
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: I love it as all is. Thank you so much

1049
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: for spending another week with us. Rate us five stars

1050
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: and give us a review. If you love us, don't

1051
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: if you hate us, and as always, remember to follow

1052
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: your gut, watch out for red flags, and never never

1053
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: trust me.

1054
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 4: Bye.

1055
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1056
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 2: Steve Delamater.

1057
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: The special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1058
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1059
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1060
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1061
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1062
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1063
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1064
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word