1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Sign Stuff, a production of iHeartRadio. My 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: name is Jorge Champ, and today we are answering the 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: question is food coloring really bad for you? The Food 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: and Drug Administration, or FDA here in the US recently 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: said it's going to try to take out all artificial 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: coloring from the foods we eat. But what are these 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: food colorants? How bad are they? And does that mean 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: we've been poisoning ourselves for decades. We're going to talk 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: to several experts, including a psychologist of food, a biomedical 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: cancer researcher, and an epidemiologist whose work was cited in 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: the FDA announcement. So put down those brightly colored Cheetos, 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: spit out that fluorescent Gatoray you just drank, and join 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: us as we answer the question is food coloring really 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: bad for you? Welcome to Sign Stuff. Hey, everyone, So 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: the FDA just made that announcement about food dies and 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm hoping this episode will be a guide for you 17 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: to understand what it all means. We'll start with the basics, 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: and that is the idea that we put color into 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: our foods. Why do we do that? Where did this 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: idea come from? And how does color affect how we 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: taste food. To answer this, I reached out to a 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: psychologist of food. Doctor Charles Spence is a professor of 23 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: psychology at Oxford University, and he's an expert on how 24 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: our senses mixed together to give us the experience of eating. 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: I asked them to give us a rundown on the 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: history of food coloring. Here's what he said. 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: So it goes back a long way. Certainly. Maybe the 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: first recorded use is in wine making, using the skins 29 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: to color the wine. That maybe goes back several thousand years. 30 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: Then over the last century or two. And also he 31 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: finds the use of saffron urmeric as well. And here 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: in the UK there's lots of use of coloring pasley 33 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: to turn things green. So that's clearly a lot of 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: interest for a long time. Color is an important part 35 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: of the experience. 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Can you step us through a little bit of the 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: psychology of food coloring? How does color effect how we 38 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: experience the food? 39 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: So one of the primary factors when we go shopping 40 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: is the use of color more than maybe any other cue. 41 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: As soon as we see products, then our brain is 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: immediately predicting what it's going to taste like, what's the flavor? 43 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: And that can be from the product to the thing itself. 44 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: Maybe that the yellowness on a banana will tell you 45 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: something about how sweet it's going to taste, through to 46 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: the color on a packet of potato chips. If I 47 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 2: see a pink crisp packet, it's going to be prawn cocktail. 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 2: If it's blue and white, it'll be cheese, onion, or 49 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 2: maybe salt and vinegar, depending on the brand. Our brain automatically, 50 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: within the blink of an eye predicts do we like it, 51 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: how energy dense is it? What flavor is it going 52 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: to have? 53 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: So we color food to catch our attention. The ancient 54 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Romans apparently use mulberry juice to color their foods red, 55 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: and the Egyptians are said to have used saffron to 56 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: dye their foods yellow and gold. But food coloring can 57 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: also change what do you think a food tastes like? 58 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: And this has been shown in several scientific studies where 59 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: people are giving a between see white yogurt and yogurt 60 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: would pink dye in it. Here's how Professor Spence describes it. 61 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: The very first studies will done in like nineteen twenties 62 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: and thirties, often by chemists confused about how good adding 63 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: coloring to a jelly or a candy, or a yogurt 64 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 2: or a cake change the taste. But now in twenty 65 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: twenty five there are probably four or five hundred published 66 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: research studies looking at the impact of color. Formally, in 67 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: the lab, we will just give people maybe three pots 68 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: of yogurt, one just playing yogurt, the other two samples 69 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: a little bit of sugar added to make them a 70 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: bit of sweetness. One of those two samples with the 71 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: sugar will also color pink, and then give people the 72 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: three samples in a random order and ask them to 73 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: say which one is sweetest, or they will the same yes, no, okay, 74 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: which one is sweetest, which one is less sweet People 75 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: be convinced that the pink one is sweeter, ten percent 76 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: sweeter or fifteen percent sweeter just through the use of color. 77 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: So in some cases you can have this really strong 78 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: reaction that we really do taste what we see. 79 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: So coloring is basically used to trick people. If I 80 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: gave you three cups of yogurt, one with white yogurt, 81 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: another one with white yogurt, with sugar and another one 82 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: with white yogurt, sugar and a little bit of food 83 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: dye to make it look pink. You're gonna think the 84 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: pink one is the sweetest. Food dyes can hould your 85 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: brain into thinking something is more ripe, or sweeter, or 86 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: more full of flavor then it really is. But, as 87 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: Professor Spence says, food coloring can also be fun. In 88 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: another set of experiments, scientists tested how the colors of 89 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: M and M's affected how much kids eat them. 90 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 2: The question why M and M's, or in England Europe, Smarties, 91 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: these sugar colored chocolate candies. Why do they come in 92 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: a variety of colors? It's not for your good health, 93 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: but the reason is from research done last century. Way, 94 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: if you ask people do you have a favorite color 95 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: of M and M's or Smarties? And kids will say yes, 96 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: I love the orange ones because it takets orange, or 97 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: the red ones because they're sweeter. And if you then 98 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: give the little kid a bottle full of their favorite 99 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: colored sweet versus a bowl of a mixture of colors, 100 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: they'll actually eat more of the mixed colors than of 101 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 2: their favorite color. Because our brain kind of satyates or 102 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: gets bored of the same thing over and over again, 103 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: saying it's my favorite color. I'll get bored of it sooner. 104 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: Whereas by having color variety you can encourage children to 105 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 2: consume more. 106 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: Candies that is fascinating. So a big part of why 107 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: we color foods is just to keep our brains entertained. 108 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 2: For violin, for contrastant, because we can. 109 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: What do you mean, Because we can. 110 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: It just adds interest to what we eat and what 111 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: we drink. It's not part of the flavor, but I 112 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: think it does contribute to our enjoyment. 113 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, coloring foods is fun, and for most of history 114 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: this coloring was done with natural ingredients, mostly herbs and 115 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: spices like partsley and turmeric. There are also non plant 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: based food dyes like carmine red, which comes from crushing 117 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: the bodies of a cactus eating insect called Dectylopius cocus. 118 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: But then in the eighteen hundreds, people got really good 119 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: at chemistry, and that's where we started to get into trouble. 120 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: To pick up this thread, I reached out to doctor 121 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: Lorne Hoffsith, a professor and Associated Dean for Research at 122 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: the College of Pharmacy in the University of South Carolina. 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: Who has a keen interest in artificial food dice. Here's 124 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: how he describes what happened next. 125 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 3: The adulteration started around the eighteen hundreds, where they were 126 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: throwing arsenic chalk into food to make it look more white. 127 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: And so in eighteen fifty six, guy named Sir William 128 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: Perkin discovered as a chemist he was looking at a 129 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 3: chemical that might work on malaria, and this chemical was 130 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 3: purple and he called it mauvine. And that was the 131 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: first synthetic food dye that then led to they discovered 132 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: they've consynthesized food colors. They have these without getting too nerdy, 133 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 3: aromatic hydrocarbons on their structure that create a color. 134 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: Okay. So, starting in the mid eighteen fifties, there was 135 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: an explosion of many different kinds of artificial or synthetic 136 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: food dies made from chemicals like coal, tar, or petroleum. 137 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: But then people started getting sick. Some of these dyes 138 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: had harmful chemicals like lead, arsenic, and mercury. Because of that, 139 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: between nineteen oh six and nineteen thirty eight, a series 140 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: of laws in the US started to regulate what people 141 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: could and could not put in foods, and it gave 142 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: the power to enforce these laws to the Food and 143 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: Drug Administration or FDA. The FDA would review these chemicals 144 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: and approve which ones they thought were safe for people 145 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: to eat. These dyes were giving names like red number 146 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: forty or blue number one. Here's how doctor Hoffseeth describes them. 147 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: At that point, there was round fifteen to twenty artificial 148 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 3: food dyes that were in our food. And then in 149 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty eight eat a very important, very important law 150 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: came into place called the Delaney Clause. This clause was 151 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: added to the Food Drugs and Cosmetics Act, and the 152 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 3: clause was saying, any food additive that causes cancer in 153 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: humans or animals can't be used in our food. 154 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: Okay, this part is important. In nineteen fifty eight, there 155 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: was an amendment to the Food Drugs and Cosmetics Act 156 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: that included a special clause named after James Delaney, the 157 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: chair of the committee looking into food safety at the time. 158 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: This clause says that while the FDA has the authority 159 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: to say which chemicals are safe to eat, it can't 160 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: approve quote any chemical additive found to induce cancer in 161 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: man or after tests found to induce cancer in animals 162 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: end quote. In other words, if anyone finds that a 163 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: chemical causes cancer in for example, rats or mice, then 164 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: the FDA has to ban it. We'll get to how 165 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: that played a role recent fd announcement a little later, 166 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: but back in the fifties it had a big impact. 167 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 3: So allowing scientists to do research on synthetic food dies. 168 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 3: That knocked off around half of them, and so there's 169 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: nine remaining, and now there's eight because Red three was 170 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: recently knocked out on January fifteenth, twenty twenty five. 171 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: Since about nineteen sixty to essentially today, there have been 172 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: only nine artificial food dyes approved for use in the 173 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: United States. They have names like red number forty, Blue 174 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: number one, Yellow five, Yellow six. Basically every single food 175 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: in the US that is artificially colored, and that is 176 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: most brightly colored foods you find in a typical supermarket, 177 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: from cheetos to sodas to gatorade, salad dressings with sabi, yogurts, 178 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: M and MS, candies, even pickles and some fruits like oranges, 179 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: uses one or more of these nine specific dyes. So 180 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: if you grew or have been living in the US 181 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: in the last sixty five years, you've probably consumed a 182 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: lot of these food dies. Okay, So now the question 183 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: is are these artificial food dyes dangerous? How bad are 184 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: they for us? When we come back, we'll talk about 185 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: the link these food dies have to cancer and children's 186 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: neuro behavior. Stay with us, you're listening to science stuff. 187 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back. Okay. We talked about why we put coloring 188 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: in our foods and about the history of food dies 189 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: and the FDA in this country. There are currently nine 190 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: artificial food colorings that are approved to be used in 191 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: the US. That's green number three, red number forty, yellow 192 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: number five and six, blue number one, blue two, citrus, 193 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: red two, and orange b although the FDA just announced 194 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: they're going to ban those last two. Next we're going 195 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: to talk about whether these food dyes are are bad 196 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: for us. Now, doctor Hasseth is a cancer researcher, and 197 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: his concern is about what these food dyes are doing 198 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: to your DNA. 199 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: So these are chemically synthesized from the foundational component being petroleum. Well, 200 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: the foremost popular are red forty, yellow six, yellow five, 201 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: and blue one. Red forty, yellow five and yellow six 202 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: are called Azo dyes. So AZO dyes have what's called 203 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: an azo bond that azobond being there means it can 204 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 3: be metabolized. So imagine red forty coming into your body 205 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: through juicy juice or through doritos and gets into your gut, 206 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: and your gut has a lot of bacteria. Some of 207 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 3: these have an enzyme called azo reduct dases. Azo reduct 208 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: dases they go after the azo bonds and they split 209 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: that molecule into two molecules, one called crescidine sulfonic acid 210 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 3: and the other one is the acronym is answa A NSA, 211 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: but the essays stands for sulfonic acid too. So we're asking, well, 212 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: what are those molecules doing, and they seem to have 213 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: a structure that likes DNA and maybe will damage it. 214 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 3: We've done the experiments to ask them why the red 215 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 3: forty damages DNA. We've sprinkled it onto cells and the 216 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 3: answer is yes. We've given it to mice for nine 217 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: months for half their lives, and the question we were 218 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 3: asking does it cause colon cancer? But the answer was no, 219 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: it didn't. But what we did discover was there was 220 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: this long term inflammation and DNA damage that was occurring 221 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 3: in the mice that we're consuming it. So you can 222 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: envision if you're consuming doritos which has red forty and 223 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: probably yellow five and probably yellow six. Just look at 224 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 3: the pack and all of these molecules that you're consuming 225 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: for day after day after day after day, year after 226 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 3: year after year after year, is causing a low grade inflammation. 227 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: Why Because these are synthetic. They're foreign to your body, 228 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: just like cigarette smoke is, just like other chemicals are. 229 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 3: They're going to stimulate inflammation. Inflammation is intimately linked to cancer, 230 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: and any piece of tissue that has chronic inflammation in 231 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: it will have a high risk of cancer. So going 232 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 3: back to the door ETOs that have the red forty 233 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: in it, you consume it, it's synthetic, it's going to 234 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: stimulate this stealthy inflammation in your gut, in your body 235 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: that will probably increase your risk of chronic diseases like cancer. 236 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: I see. 237 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 3: So that's how they're linked. 238 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: Doctor Hasset has done experiments with the most commonly used 239 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: of the dyes, red forty, and while he didn't find 240 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: that it caused cancer in he reported it cause inflammation, 241 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: which if it happens for a long time, is linked 242 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: to cancer. Now there are some more direct connections to 243 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: cancer for some of these other dyes, but sometimes that's 244 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: not enough. For example, Red number three, another artificial dyet 245 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: that's been in use in the US for over sixty years, 246 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: was found to cause thyroid tumors in rats back in 247 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, but the FDA banned it only a 248 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,239 Speaker 1: few months ago, with an effective band aid of January 249 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty seven. That means it took forty years after 250 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: Red number three technically triggered the Delaney clause, the clause 251 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: that says a chemical has to be banned if it 252 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: is found to cause cancer in animals before it will 253 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: actually be taken out of foods in the US. We'll 254 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: talk about how the FDA approves or doesn't approve something 255 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: is safe a little later in the program, but just 256 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: to be clear, the link between cancer and artificial food 257 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: dyes is not a slam dunk. According to the Center 258 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: for Science and the Public Interests, a nonprofit that at 259 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: tracks food and safety, some of the approved food dies 260 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: show a possible connection to tumors and some don't. But 261 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: what has given a lot of energy to the movement 262 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: to ban artificial food dies in recent years is their 263 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: connection to children's neuro behavior. In particular, the FDA cited 264 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: a study commissioned by the California Office of Environmental Health 265 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: and Hazard Assessment titled Potential Impacts of Synthetic food dies 266 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: on Activity and Attention in Children. A Review of the 267 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: human and animal evidence. To learn more about this study, 268 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: I talked to one of the authors of that study, 269 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: Professor Asa Bradman. Thank you, doctor Bradman for joining us. 270 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 4: I'm thrilled to be here. So my name is Asa Bradman, 271 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: and I'm a professor of public health at the University 272 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 4: of californiumer said, in the public Health department, and the 273 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 4: focus of my work is environmental health and children. So 274 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 4: I work on a range of issues, looking at environmental 275 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 4: exposures like pesticides, air pollution, and also dietary exposures. 276 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: Can I ask you about that study that you published 277 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: put on by the California Office of Environmental Health. 278 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 4: Yes, So, there was a member of the legislature in 279 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 4: California that asked the Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment 280 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 4: to conduct this study, and they came to me and 281 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: teamed up with my group to develop exposure assessments and 282 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 4: other information about what people are actually being exposed to. 283 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: Our major conclusion was that many studies show a relationship 284 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 4: between kids who, when consuming artificial food coloring, had behavioral 285 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 4: or other changes that could put them, for example, in 286 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 4: the category that you might describe as attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder, 287 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 4: or trouble settling down. 288 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: Okay, what doctor Bradman and the team of researchers did 289 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: was a comprehensive review of different studies related to artificial 290 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: food dies and they found two things. One in animals, 291 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: high doses of artificial food dice affect their brains and 292 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: their ability to remember and learn. And two in kids, 293 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: eating artificial food dice affected their behavior and their ability 294 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: to focus and pay attention. Here's how doctor Bradman describes 295 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: these results. So how did these experiments usually work? Like 296 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: you would give some rats a lot of food dye 297 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: and some you wouldn't. 298 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 4: An ideal study and you would have a series of 299 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 4: doses at different levels, and then you would examine the 300 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: animals for effects from those doses. For example, you know 301 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 4: there's a lot of standardized rodent studies to look at 302 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 4: how well they can get through a maze. We know 303 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 4: when you have miser rats in your house or in 304 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 4: your basement or in your garage. They're pretty smart animals 305 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 4: and they can find ways to get in or solve problems. 306 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 4: Whilst the same thing with these tests. If you find, 307 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 4: for example, that the ones are exposed don't do as 308 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 4: well in learning to address a challenge you're remembering where 309 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 4: the food might be, then you can make some conclusions 310 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 4: about the impact on the animals. Right, the animal studies 311 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 4: indicate synthetic food dies effect activity, memory and learning, cause 312 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 4: changes in the chemicals that carry signals from one nerve 313 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: to the next in the brain, and can cause microscopic 314 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 4: changes in brain structure. 315 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: And then what did the studies find for kids? 316 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 4: So there have been some studies where psychologists have provided 317 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 4: a drink or beverage to a group of kids and 318 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 4: they don't tell them whether there's an artificial color or 319 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 4: some other color in the food or beverage. And of 320 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 4: course this kind of study has to go through an 321 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 4: ethics review and be approved and there has to be 322 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 4: consent form. But they're not consuming anything different than if 323 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 4: they had, say, gone to the store and bought some 324 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 4: candy or a juice beverage that had red number forty. 325 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 4: So you can give them the artificial food coloring and 326 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 4: then record using standardized methods any changes in behavior. 327 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: So you found that kids who consumed these artificial dies 328 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: seemed to have more problems with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, Yes. 329 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 4: And settling down. We have symptoms that we would considered 330 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 4: to be like attention deficit disorder or ADHD attention deficit 331 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 4: hyperactivity disorder. But just to make it clear that it 332 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 4: seemed to me that some kids were more vulnerable than others, 333 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 4: and that we're not talking about necessarily a chronic induction 334 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 4: of ADHD, but rather an episodic, transient effect. 335 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: In other words, the studies found that when kids drank 336 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: or ate regular amounts of artificial food coloring, they seemed 337 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: to behave as since they had ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, 338 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: they would have trouble settling down and focusing, at least temporarily. 339 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: So in the studies you found the effect was more transient. 340 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 4: I mean, the analogy would be like if you drank 341 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 4: some alcohol, you might be a little drunk or tipsy 342 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 4: fair period of time, but you're not permanently in that state. 343 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 4: So the idea here is that these kids were given 344 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 4: a beverage, usually with the synthetic dies in them, and 345 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 4: there seem to be a demonstrable result. But on the 346 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 4: next day, when they were given a challenge that did 347 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 4: not have any of the artificial food dies, those changes 348 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 4: in behavior were not seen. So that's what I mean 349 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 4: by transient. 350 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: The effect is temporary. But as doctor Brettman says, the 351 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: concern is what these artificial dies are doing to kids 352 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: in the long term. 353 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 4: When you think about you don't want to give kids 354 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 4: alcohol every day, and I'm sure the canyons who's going 355 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 4: to go after me for say something like this, But 356 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 4: younger children are more vulnerable to environmental exposures than older 357 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 4: kids or than adults. You can imagine that if you 358 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: take a very young child that's not yet developed, if 359 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: there are neurotoxic insults that can disrupt that development. So 360 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 4: one concern about these is that young children may be 361 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 4: getting exposed on a regular basis and could have long 362 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 4: term impacts. 363 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: Okay, to recap some of the artificial food dyes have 364 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: some possible connection to cancer, and in experiments they also 365 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: seem to affect kids' behavior and possibly their development. So 366 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: now the question is how much of these food dyes 367 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: are we consuming? Is there even an acceptable amount? When 368 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: we come back, we'll ask our experts this question, and 369 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the most recent plan by the FDA 370 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: to try to get rid of artificial coloring in general. 371 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: Stay with us, we'll be right back and we're back. Okay, 372 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: we talked about what artificial food coloring can do to 373 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: the human body. Now the question is how much of 374 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: it are we swallowing? What do we know about how 375 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: much kids are consuming these food dies well. 376 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 4: As part of the work with the state of California, 377 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 4: we looked at concentration of these dyes in many different foods, 378 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 4: and then we looked at a set of data from 379 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: something called the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey on 380 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 4: what people eat. So what we did is we estimated 381 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 4: the intake in what's called milligrams per kilogram of body 382 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 4: weight actually published in the study, with a relationship of 383 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 4: that intake to what are called the acceptable daily intakes. 384 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: Okay, this is worth getting into. When the FDA approves 385 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: something like an artificial food dye, they do it as 386 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: an acceptable daily intake or ADI, which is how much 387 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: of something the FDA thinks is safe to eat or 388 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: your weight so if you're bigger and you weigh more, 389 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: the FDA thinks you can eat more of it. Here's 390 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: how doctor Halseth explains how the FDA sets that number. 391 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: So what happens is an organization called the Joint Food 392 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 3: and Agriculture Organization JEKFA. They put out a report every 393 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 3: year looking at the science behind any food additive. So 394 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 3: the acceptable daily intake, let's look at Red forty for 395 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: an example, is seven miligrounds per kilogram per day. 396 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: It's quite a bit. 397 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: How did they come to that number. 398 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: Because in the nineteen sixties and seventies, the government actually 399 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: does do these experiments. They do maximum tolerable doses, and 400 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 3: the mice or rats didn't have any significant pathologies at 401 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: seven milligrounds per kilogram per. 402 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: Day and below. 403 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: They said, okay, based on these old studies that showed 404 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 3: that they've fed read forty at different doses to mice, 405 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 3: they looked and said, it doesn't seem any pathology is happening, 406 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: not even inflammation is happening anything below seven milligrounds per 407 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: kilogram per day. 408 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 4: Okay. 409 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: The way this works is somebody does an experiment where 410 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: they see what's the most do they read, or a 411 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: mouse will tolerate of a chemical without anything seeming to 412 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: happen to it, and then you scale that up for 413 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: larger humans. Plus, according to doctor Bratman, a safety factor. 414 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 4: So the way it works is that when we look 415 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 4: at the very lowest dose that would have very little 416 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 4: effect or almost no effect in a rat or mouse, 417 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 4: and then we take that number and we put on 418 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 4: safety factors and usually put on a factor of ten 419 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 4: or a factor of one hundred. 420 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: The FDA does base their decisions on science, and they 421 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: add huge safety factors. So the recommended amount is ten 422 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: or sometimes one hundred the amount that's been found to 423 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: be safe for test animals. So what did the California 424 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: study find? Are we actually consuming more or less than 425 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: the FDA acceptable value? 426 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 4: In general, the ratio of what kids or a pregnant 427 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 4: women we're eating relatively to the acceptable daily intakes was 428 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 4: below one. If it's below one, it means they're getting 429 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 4: exposed at a level that's less than the acceptable daily intake, 430 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 4: although there were some instances where especially younger children could 431 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 4: be eating foods and have exposures that are at or 432 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: slightly above the acceptable daily intake. 433 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: In other words, For the most part, people are not 434 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: consuming these artificial food dyes above the acceptable daily intake, 435 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: and since there's a safety factor, we are consuming them 436 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: way below what the FDA thinks is actually a dangerous amount. 437 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: And yet the studies say even consuming off the shelf 438 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: drinks can give kids attention deficit problems. So what's going on? 439 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 4: So when we look at those studies and we look 440 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 4: at the doses that they were exposed to, we realize 441 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 4: that the absceptual daily intakes that were developed for the 442 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 4: Food and Drug Administration are based on studies that are 443 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 4: very all thirty five to seventy years old even and 444 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 4: they were designed to look at the kind of behavioral 445 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 4: outcomes that were concerned about. So we would make an 446 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 4: argument that the acceptable daily intakes developed by FDA were 447 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 4: appropriate at the time. But as we've gained more information 448 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 4: about the potential health concerns related to these exposures, they 449 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: don't offer an adequate margin of safety for consumption of 450 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 4: these foods. 451 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: They're too high. They're too high, all right, tareikap. Again, 452 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: if you've been eating cheetos and red soda and food 453 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: with lots of artificial colorance, then you have possibly increased 454 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: at least a little bit, your chances of getting cancer, 455 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: and if you're a kid, it may be giving you 456 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: attention problems which might affect your development. What does this 457 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: all mean, Well, it may not matter, because here's the shocker. 458 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: As we were editing this episode, the Food and Drug 459 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: Administration or FDA made the announcement that they're going to 460 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: try to quote phase out petroleum based synthetic dies in 461 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: the nation food supply end quote. To make sense of this, 462 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: I called doctor Bryman again, who, because of the announcement, 463 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: has been inundated with calls from reporters. So after he 464 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: hung up with The New York Times, he took my call. 465 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: All right, thanks doctor Breman for coming back. 466 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 4: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. 467 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: What did they announce? 468 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 4: I was really amazed. The FDA commissioner spoke about his 469 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 4: department's concerns about artificial food collery and that as part 470 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 4: of a new initiative, they were moving to ban all 471 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 4: of the artificial food colors. 472 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: Now, what are they actually planning it, because it seemed 473 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: like they're not actually banning them yet, but they wanted 474 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: the food industry to do it voluntarily. 475 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 4: You're right, it's not totally clear how they're going to 476 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 4: move ahead with this initiative. Health and Human Services Secretary 477 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 4: Robert F. Kennedy also spoke about how they want to 478 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 4: work together with the food industry to phase out these materials, 479 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: and the timeframe they were looking at was pretty short, 480 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 4: you know, like a couple of years to accomplish it, 481 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 4: which is short. Having some experience in the food processing 482 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 4: world and understanding what it takes to source ingredients and 483 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 4: put together a recipe you can produce on a mass scale, 484 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 4: it will be challenging. 485 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine there's probably a lot of Twinkies on 486 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: shelves out there that could have stayed there forever. 487 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 4: That would be a good point that there's going to 488 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 4: be a process of looking at current inventory. Also, surprisingly, 489 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 4: Commissioner MacRae also talked about alternatives and from any of 490 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 4: these colors. There are alternatives that are from plants that 491 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 4: we normally eat we know are healthy, like blueberries or 492 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: beets or other sources. And he even held up a 493 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 4: cup of beeches as an example of a natural color 494 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: that is not petroleum derived, comes from a food we 495 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 4: know as healthy. 496 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: I guess my question is why didn't they just outride 497 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: bandies who dies? Why make it this kind of voluntary, 498 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: fuzzy process. 499 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 4: They suspect that to actually go through a regulatory process 500 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 4: and develop rules and to revoke the approvals for these 501 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 4: would be a slow and bureaucratic process. But I think 502 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 4: they're using the bully pulpit to raise concerns about these substances, 503 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 4: and hopefully, I think they're trying to engage the good 504 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 4: will of the American food industry to work together with 505 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 4: them and perhaps implement these changes in a way so 506 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 4: that regulatory steps are not necessary or needed. 507 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: So just giving notice to food companies that you better 508 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: start moving away from these artificial dies. 509 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 4: Yes, having observed the food industry much of my career, 510 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 4: often these kinds of voluntary things are not successful. You know, 511 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 4: it'll be interesting to see how they work together and 512 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 4: what they can accomplish. 513 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: What do you think for the average consumer? We get 514 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: bombarded by so many things in our feeds, our Facebook 515 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: feeds or Instagram feeds. So many it's a little bit 516 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: hard to know what to believe. Whether this is good 517 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: for you, bet, this is bad for you. What advice 518 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: you have for the average consumer about what we can 519 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: trust and what we can trust. 520 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 4: I think what you can trust is encouragement to make 521 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 4: choices to choose you know, whole foods and do your 522 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 4: own cooking. And my whole foods I don't mean the market. 523 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 4: I need you know, buying vegetables, fruits and grains, breads 524 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: and meats, dairy products that you know don't fit into 525 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 4: the category of ultra process and take some time to 526 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 4: think about and prepare your meals. If the ingredients of 527 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 4: the food you're looking at are difficult to pronounce and 528 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 4: you don't know what they are, I think that's an 529 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 4: indication that you might want to stick to products that 530 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: you can understand and hopefully prepare yourself. 531 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: That's great. Oh wait for I might check from Whole 532 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: Foods now. All right, well, thank you so much chick 533 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: to Bradman for that perspective. 534 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 4: Okay, thanks again for reaching out, and I look forward 535 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 4: to hearing the podcast. 536 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: All Right, his artificial food coloring really bad for you. 537 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: The science says it's not great for you. The only 538 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: reason we've been using it is to give us a 539 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: bit of cheap fun. So maybe the answer is to 540 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: make eating non artificial foods more fun. Thanks for joining us. 541 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: See you next time you've been listening to Science Stuff. 542 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: The production of iHeartRadio written and produced by me or 543 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: hitch Ham candidate by Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland 544 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: and audio engineer and mixer Casey Pegram, and you can 545 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: follow me on social media to search for PhD comics 546 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. Be sure to 547 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: subscribe to Sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 548 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell your 549 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.