Speaker 1: Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about
Speaker 1: queer sex, filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities.
Speaker 1: If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more
Speaker 1: offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer
Speaker 1: discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 2: Gabe.
Speaker 3: Yes, Chris, tell me about your hottest cruising experience.
Speaker 1: I've got to say I once was very curious about
Speaker 1: the Blue Store rip and I had never been there before,
Speaker 1: and everybody was like, oh, the video boosts at the
Speaker 1: Blue Store, and I was like, well, let me go
Speaker 1: try a piece of queer history. I went downstairs to
Speaker 1: the video booths and there was nobody. There was like
Speaker 1: me and this older guy who had clearly also taken
Speaker 1: his lunch break.
Speaker 2: To go to the bus. And I was like, all right, baby,
Speaker 2: it's you and me. Guy. Let's it. We're either staring
Speaker 2: at a screen or we're gonna make the most of this.
Speaker 1: And it was one of those things where it was
Speaker 1: like neither of us were what the other one was
Speaker 1: looking for, but we were like this could be.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was like a really good.
Speaker 1: Hookup did in an exchange a name, didn't exchange number,
Speaker 1: like absolutely nothing, and then we just left and I
Speaker 1: never saw that personally again.
Speaker 2: It was really it was fun, how about you.
Speaker 3: It was late one night and I was headed to
Speaker 3: a friend's house to stay in the city. I'm supposed
Speaker 3: to going to Brooklyn and there's this like hot guy
Speaker 3: who's like on the other side of the door, and
Speaker 3: like we're making eyes at each other, making eyes.
Speaker 2: There's a door between you, well.
Speaker 3: You know, like the subway door, and then see yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: So like I'm like looking over and I like, I
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's kind of hot. Two stops and then
Speaker 3: he comes and sits in front of me. He starts adjusting.
Speaker 3: I started adjusting. We start playing with each other with
Speaker 3: the with with ourselves, and uh, finally he just like
Speaker 3: motions for me to get off the train. We get
Speaker 3: off the train and we like hook up on the
Speaker 3: train platform. We don't say a word this entire time,
Speaker 3: and then wait for the next train that was coming
Speaker 3: in like six minutes. Get on the train. He gets
Speaker 3: off of the next time. I give a little nod
Speaker 3: and uh, yeah, I'm tracking hot.
Speaker 1: I am coming into this episode like a cruising novice
Speaker 1: like I need a cruising one O one, you're like
Speaker 1: grad school Like ready, h for.
Speaker 2: Sure she holds multiple degrees in cruising. Okay, that is amazing.
Speaker 2: That's a great story.
Speaker 3: Not gonna lie every time I get on the train
Speaker 3: and I'm hoping he's on it, just to like for
Speaker 3: a repeating.
Speaker 1: Whenever I revisit the Blue Store, I hope that man
Speaker 1: in his suit is there as well.
Speaker 2: No, I love that. That is really really incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all know that Sniffy's and the Pandemic kind
Speaker 1: of ignited a gay cruising renaissance in cities around the world.
Speaker 1: But where did cruising begin and how has it changed
Speaker 1: over time?
Speaker 3: Well, this week we welcome writer and activist Leo Herrara
Speaker 3: to talk about his new manual and a Log Cruising,
Speaker 3: which offers amazing advice to make cruising easier, whether you're
Speaker 3: a beginner or you're like me, a season pro.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.
Speaker 3: I am Gabe Goonsilers, I'm Chris Patterson rosso each week
Speaker 3: weeks for the Sublime world of Queer Sex, cruising and Relationship, where.
Speaker 1: We talking to queer folks of all kinds, ask them questions,
Speaker 1: swap sex stories, share intimate revelations.
Speaker 4: A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.
Speaker 3: This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the
Speaker 3: library or the airport.
Speaker 2: I feel like everybody's gonna fuck a little harder here, Damn.
Speaker 3: So I was like the neighborhood slot, and I took
Speaker 3: pride in that.
Speaker 2: I was so afraid but yet so intrigued. And the
Speaker 2: more I gave to him, the more you could take.
Speaker 4: If you're having sex on Sniffy's, you already have a
Speaker 4: moral deficit.
Speaker 3: I think if you're a gay or career person on
Speaker 3: Instagram or Twitter, you definitely have seen our first guest work.
Speaker 1: Leo Herredra is a Mexican writer, activist, and filmmaker best
Speaker 1: known for his viral essay Means that explored queerness, race,
Speaker 1: and disease.
Speaker 3: Not to mention his incredible Herrara Words substack, where he
Speaker 3: publishes long form essays on queer culture and sex.
Speaker 1: Leo's latest project is a new manual called Analog Cruising, which,
Speaker 1: opinion every Cruising Confessions listener and Sniffy's user.
Speaker 2: Should probably read for sure. Welcome Leohredra. How are you
Speaker 2: And I'm going so good, Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: having me. So glad you're here.
Speaker 1: Let's pretend I have been living under a rock for
Speaker 1: the past thousand years. Uh, And I asked you what
Speaker 1: cruising is. How would you give us, like a very
Speaker 1: base simple definition of cruising.
Speaker 4: Cruising is when two people look at each other and
Speaker 4: know they're going to have sex and then have sex.
Speaker 2: It's a really simple note. Yes, simple, Yeah, truly one
Speaker 2: of the oldest art forms. I mean, the beauty is
Speaker 2: in the simplicity, right, Yeah, I like that. And it
Speaker 2: seems like.
Speaker 1: The eyes and eye contact is maybe like part of
Speaker 1: the vocabulary or nonverbal language of cruising.
Speaker 4: Eye contact is the mother tongue. Everything starts with eye
Speaker 4: contact and then builds from there. So you start by
Speaker 4: looking at one another. And as most game I know,
Speaker 4: if you're in a crowded you can look around and
Speaker 4: you will spot out the other gay just by the
Speaker 4: way that you guys look at each other. If you
Speaker 4: look away and then look back and you're still looking
Speaker 4: at one another, that is a whole romance novel waiting
Speaker 4: to happen right in that split second. Gay men are
Speaker 4: so good at nonverbal communication. Because we've had to do
Speaker 4: it for so long for safety issues. Once we learn
Speaker 4: to sort of harness that for sexual issues, it sort
Speaker 4: of opens.
Speaker 2: Up this entire different world for us.
Speaker 4: Whether it's park cruising, cruising someone on a subway, in
Speaker 4: a dark room at a sex club, at a bath house,
Speaker 4: there's sort of different rules of engagement for each of
Speaker 4: those spaces, but they always always start off with eye contact.
Speaker 3: So, thinking about cruising, what do we know about where
Speaker 3: it started?
Speaker 4: You know, it's one of those things where, because there's
Speaker 4: so little historical records about gay culture, we're never really
Speaker 4: gonna know. But my thought about that is it's probably
Speaker 4: when two cavemans saw each other and look down and
Speaker 4: they're like that, it's a huge cave mancock, and then
Speaker 4: they dragged each other.
Speaker 2: To a cave and then had sex before language.
Speaker 4: Began, and then they probably had you know, a little
Speaker 4: like drawings up on a cave men.
Speaker 1: Well, I love those are proto only fans. Those drawings
Speaker 1: were only fans before we knew what it was.
Speaker 2: It's great, it's amazing totally.
Speaker 4: And so we have some records, Unfortunately a lot of
Speaker 4: them are police records of you know, sting operations, and
Speaker 4: things like that. When you're studying queer history, you have
Speaker 4: to sort of read between the lines of certain things.
Speaker 4: But what's interesting to me is that cruising is ingrained
Speaker 4: in the gay DNA.
Speaker 2: So almost the history. In a way, it's valuable, but
Speaker 2: you don't need.
Speaker 4: To know it to go cruising. It's just something that
Speaker 4: you can sort of instinctively pick up because it's basically
Speaker 4: all instinct. I'm also curious why like parks and public
Speaker 4: places became sort of the focal point for cruising, and
Speaker 4: whether or not that has a lot to do with
Speaker 4: like police persecution or the persecution of queer spaces, especially
Speaker 4: like mid twentieth century, right. I mean, the reason that
Speaker 4: those parks exist is because that's all we had, you know,
Speaker 4: before queer bars were a thing, or before they were
Speaker 4: allowed to be legal, which hasn't been that long. I mean,
Speaker 4: people would cruise, you know, neither Coliseum or in you know,
Speaker 4: when Aversta Park in San Francisco or the Rambles in
Speaker 4: New York. A lot of black and brown men would
Speaker 4: go to Prospect Park, to the Veil of Cashmere, which
Speaker 4: is one of my favorite names of any cruising area.
Speaker 4: So that's sort of you know, they're just born out
Speaker 4: of necessity, but they're also you know, born out of adventure.
Speaker 4: How many married men who were secretly gay would take
Speaker 4: a walk in the park, you know, after dinner time,
Speaker 4: and so a lot of those spaces are created by
Speaker 4: a community that just needed to find each other for
Speaker 4: sexual and just communal reasons.
Speaker 2: I live across the sea from Prospect Park. I have
Speaker 2: been there. I bet you it's wonderful. I'll save.
Speaker 3: It's definitely been great for that because you can sort
Speaker 3: of check in when you're going to be there, which
Speaker 3: I love. I love that feature actually where you can
Speaker 3: sort of like I'm going to be there at twelve
Speaker 3: forty three.
Speaker 2: You're a prompt girly.
Speaker 1: You're like, look, we got the audition at eight, we
Speaker 1: got it. Yeah, I'm going to be in the veil
Speaker 1: Kashmir as seven.
Speaker 2: You can veil me and it will be fantastic. It
Speaker 2: will be great. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So it's like, it's interesting, how cruising sort of you know,
Speaker 4: we had a very hyper focused on only digital tools
Speaker 4: for so long, and we're sort of seeing that pendulum
Speaker 4: go back to where we're experiencing sort of a hybrid
Speaker 4: cruising word incorporates a little bit of digital elements to it,
Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, you're still stucking
Speaker 4: dick at apart and it's still beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Back in the early days, pre internet, when I was cruising,
Speaker 3: I like had all these skills, and then we sort
Speaker 3: of got away from that, and then like when cruising
Speaker 3: started started happening it again, I was like, oh, I
Speaker 3: don't have these skills anymore. I don't know how to
Speaker 3: look at someone and get the okay and walk with
Speaker 3: them and do the thing, and like, you know, I've
Speaker 3: sort of had forgotten that, and you know, now that
Speaker 3: I'm doing it again, it's like, Oh, it's kind of
Speaker 3: like old hat. It's like getting on a bicycle again.
Speaker 3: They're all in there, all those skills.
Speaker 1: And even learning about where to find cruising spots is
Speaker 1: so interesting because the idea, right is that these spaces
Speaker 1: are somewhat secretive. It's word of mouth, it's passed along
Speaker 1: through through gay channels. I remember the first cruising spot
Speaker 1: I ever learned about was in college and I was
Speaker 1: like freshly out. I was like nineteen or twenty, and
Speaker 1: it was this park about like a mile away from
Speaker 1: my campus in Providence, and it was a park where
Speaker 1: you knew people were cruising, and you knew when you
Speaker 1: were getting to the cruising spot because there'd be like
Speaker 1: little used condoms on the ground.
Speaker 2: Tall. Yeah, but I had to drive to get there.
Speaker 1: So I remember driving my friends to this park, or
Speaker 1: my friend's car to this park. I went alone, and
Speaker 1: I parked and I went and I did my thing,
Speaker 1: and I like made furtive eye contact with someone and
Speaker 1: I got a little scared and I left and then
Speaker 1: I went back and then I had a really fun time.
Speaker 1: And when I got back to my friend's car, the
Speaker 1: car wasn't working anymore. So I was like stranded in
Speaker 1: a known cruising spot in Providence, and I was like,
Speaker 1: who am I going to call to come pick me up?
Speaker 1: Outside this gay cruising park lo and behold another cruiser.
Speaker 1: A man driving a truck was driving by and he's like, hey, buddy,
Speaker 1: you need car help, And I was like yeah, and.
Speaker 2: Then we hooked up in his truck. Before it was wild.
Speaker 1: Honestly, it felt like I was living a porno and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, but this can be life.
Speaker 2: Like you can live a little fantasy at the park
Speaker 2: if you want too.
Speaker 4: And that's what makes cruising so exciting because you never
Speaker 4: know what narrative you're gonna get. Yeah, use this digital
Speaker 4: narrative machine that you're like, oh, I'm into this, and
Speaker 4: I'm into that. You're gonna go here, and you're gonna
Speaker 4: go to that. Please don't gost me or please show
Speaker 4: it me when you show up at a park and
Speaker 4: when you're doing like cruising on a subway, like you
Speaker 4: literally don't know what that story arc is gonna be.
Speaker 4: And even when it's not good, you know, knock on
Speaker 4: wood and you're still safe. You know, even when it's
Speaker 4: not fantastic, even if you don't get late, it's always
Speaker 4: such a story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even when it's tragic.
Speaker 4: It's always a fantastic part of the things that sort
Speaker 4: of mold you as a gay person.
Speaker 1: How have you seen sort of cruising evolve. I guess
Speaker 1: over the past twenty thirty years. In particular, I think.
Speaker 2: It evolves in the way that we do use technology.
Speaker 4: But also one of the biggest watershed moments was the
Speaker 4: release of Prep in twenty thirteen and how that sort
Speaker 4: of started to lift the stigma that a lot of
Speaker 4: these spaces had for such a long time.
Speaker 2: You know, bathhouses were closed because of aids. There was
Speaker 2: this stigma attached to it.
Speaker 4: When I started going to dark rooms and sex clubs
Speaker 4: in the early in two thousand and five, you know,
Speaker 4: when I was twenty something, there was still a lot
Speaker 4: of stigma. People were really really scared of those places,
Speaker 4: and older men had dealt with such a traumatic experience
Speaker 4: through the crisis that they just weren't There was so
Speaker 4: much shame attached to them and so much fear, And
Speaker 4: so now that we've sort of lifted it, you can
Speaker 4: see that these spaces are gradually filling up with younger
Speaker 4: men that are very curious about them, and filling up
Speaker 4: with older men who removed themselves from them for so long.
Speaker 4: So that's one of the biggest parts of how it's changed.
Speaker 4: But the wonderful part about cruising is that it never
Speaker 4: really changes. It is such a constant in our community.
Speaker 4: It sort of adapts to the culture, and it adapts
Speaker 4: to the safety of everything, and it adapts to laws.
Speaker 4: But it's still two men looking at each other being like,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna suck that dick.
Speaker 2: Happen, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: I think it's such a beautiful part of our culture
Speaker 4: because it takes us back to such a primal place,
Speaker 4: and it's also a litmus test of how we're doing politically,
Speaker 4: how we're doing medically, how we're doing socially.
Speaker 2: It's it's it says a lot to.
Speaker 4: Me that we're even having a conversation like this for
Speaker 4: ag n Apple Sniffy's, because for so long most gay
Speaker 4: men ninety nine percent of their hookups were digital. There's
Speaker 4: so many more doc rooms at parties. There's so much
Speaker 4: more value attached to a bath house, for example, like
Speaker 4: the EMPOS outbreak, when we really learned how dependent we
Speaker 4: could be on them to get our vaccines and to
Speaker 4: get our safe sex information.
Speaker 1: I actually got my empox vaccine at a mobile vaccine
Speaker 1: truck that showed out, showed up right outside of a
Speaker 1: sex party, and I was like, oh, this is easier
Speaker 1: than trying to sign up on the City of New
Speaker 1: York's website.
Speaker 2: Like I just had to go to.
Speaker 3: The sex party and it was an increasing was great.
Speaker 1: I made friends in line, like it was a great time,
Speaker 1: and the nurses were sitting there like this is the
Speaker 1: most people we've seen show up to one of these
Speaker 1: mobile vans. And I think a lot of times people
Speaker 1: think that sexual community or sexual subcultures are just solely
Speaker 1: focused on sex, but there's also a care element and
Speaker 1: a community element that I think is so interesting.
Speaker 4: And those spaces can exist without a care element, Like
Speaker 4: a lot of all cruising areas and all cruising interactions
Speaker 4: depend on a bay level of respect and consent and
Speaker 4: excitement and pride in who you are and what your
Speaker 4: needs are. So you can't go into a cruising space
Speaker 4: feeling terrible about yourself, not being able to look at
Speaker 4: someone in the eyes, caring a lot of shame about
Speaker 4: what you're doing because it's not sexy, nobody wants.
Speaker 2: To fuck back up.
Speaker 4: You really need a level of base pride in your
Speaker 4: culture and your community to enjoy those spaces. The queens
Speaker 4: that have the best time, that are proud to be
Speaker 4: there and having a good time. Even if you're not
Speaker 4: having sex, you're making friends and you're just gathering a
Speaker 4: story to tell later on.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering how did people share cruising spots or
Speaker 1: tips or etiquette, or like even learn how to cruise
Speaker 1: with each other pre internet?
Speaker 4: So cruising is one of our oldest forms of oral histories.
Speaker 4: So it was just something that somebody told somebody else
Speaker 4: who told somebody else, who told somebody else. When we
Speaker 4: were able to get you know, classifi as in newspapers
Speaker 4: and use codes, we did have ways to sort of
Speaker 4: communicate that with each other. But one of the most
Speaker 4: interesting parts about cruising is that it's so instinctual. So
Speaker 4: when you go into a park and you see the
Speaker 4: little nooks and crannies and you see somebody standing there,
Speaker 4: you're gonna be like, Oh, that's an interesting thing over there.
Speaker 4: I wonder what's happening there? Why is there a guy
Speaker 4: just standing there? And so a lot of our cruising
Speaker 4: spots and a lot of the way that cruising evolves
Speaker 4: is instinctual and like the most minimal word of mouth,
Speaker 4: because we needed to protect ourselves from the law and
Speaker 4: from queer bashings and the politics of our own culture.
Speaker 1: Is so interesting to me, like the sort of languages
Speaker 1: that surround cruising, both verbal and nonverbal, are constantly evolving
Speaker 1: and really just depend on like who's the person you hear?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right?
Speaker 1: I learned how to cruise from you outside. We were
Speaker 1: standing outside waiting to be left from the in from
Speaker 1: the studio. Chris turns to their left, sees this man
Speaker 1: walking down the sidewalk and goes ooh, he looks yummy.
Speaker 1: The man approaches us Christs and not avert their eyes.
Speaker 1: The entire time passes us. Chris turns looks at it
Speaker 1: like waiting for him to look back, and I was like,
Speaker 1: maybe I need him to look back for you.
Speaker 2: That was that was like masterclass outside the.
Speaker 4: Whole world is then that waiting of are they going
Speaker 4: to turn back? And that moment that they do is
Speaker 4: one of the most exciting things that can happen to you.
Speaker 2: I get such a rush from it, like get yeah.
Speaker 3: I Like, I'm a sober person, so I don't get
Speaker 3: a lot of highs these days, so like this is
Speaker 3: my new high.
Speaker 2: Just like getting the look back in the smile and
Speaker 2: then that's it. I just sort of going my way.
Speaker 2: I have no intention of poking up. I just want
Speaker 2: to get the look back.
Speaker 4: There's a dopamine explosion, says hey, you should probably pay
Speaker 4: attention to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the joke's on your brain because you're
Speaker 2: not going to appropriate.
Speaker 3: But still so thinking about the danger of cruising, right,
Speaker 3: we look at like these police raids, how has it
Speaker 3: changed from the past to the present.
Speaker 4: You know, I think we'd like to tell ourselves that
Speaker 4: everything's totally fine, but as we know, police presence and
Speaker 4: queer culture is always going to have a really terrible relationship.
Speaker 4: But even our bars, you know, are still dealing with
Speaker 4: raids and parties get shut down all the time for that,
Speaker 4: so we always have to be really hyper aware of that.
Speaker 4: And as soon as we, you know, drop that vigilance,
Speaker 4: that's when we're really going to get in trouble.
Speaker 2: So the first rule in my park.
Speaker 4: Cruising guide is to inform yourself on the police activity
Speaker 4: in the area.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it just takes.
Speaker 4: One toddler to pick up a dirty condom and that
Speaker 4: Karen mom is going to run to that park, you know,
Speaker 4: to the police, and then they're gonna mow down all
Speaker 4: the bushes, and that happens all the time.
Speaker 3: To be honest, I kind of love the danger. The
Speaker 3: thrill of kind of getting hot is kind of really
Speaker 3: hot to me, and like the urgency of having to
Speaker 3: get off so I can get out, so I you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like I kind of love that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So that's interesting because to me, I'm the opposite.
Speaker 4: I hate the idea of getting caught, so and every
Speaker 4: every cruising area is going to have a different element
Speaker 4: of that danger because it is such a dopamine rush
Speaker 4: to be like, oh my god, what if somebody comes up?
Speaker 4: But there's you know, there's different levels of rushes to
Speaker 4: each space and sort of one of the one of
Speaker 4: the most exciting parts is figuring out, like what is
Speaker 4: the thing that turns you on the most about cruising
Speaker 4: and about being sort of exposed to the elements or
Speaker 4: exposed to other people. That's the beauty of these cruising
Speaker 4: areas is that they are made to be able to
Speaker 4: see out and not and for the outside to not
Speaker 4: see in. So most cruising areas are not going to
Speaker 4: be very you know, they're not going to be about
Speaker 4: exposure and exhibitionism. But one of the things that I
Speaker 4: do remind people when I'm doing I'm working on my
Speaker 4: dark Room cruising guide right now, and one of the
Speaker 4: rules is to just take this moment into like skin
Speaker 4: room and understand that you're hearingsing something that is very
Speaker 4: very rare to the rest of the world, Like to
Speaker 4: be able to go into a bar and to go
Speaker 4: into a back room and there's a dozen guys fucking
Speaker 4: it's really specific to us and we're one of the
Speaker 4: very few cultures that can make a friend in the dark.
Speaker 2: And so there's a beauty of that.
Speaker 4: So you're going through this veil of consciousness where you're
Speaker 4: experiencing this thing that is private, that there are entire
Speaker 4: our entire culture builds to be a private thing, and
Speaker 4: you get to step into this looking glass of sexuality.
Speaker 4: That's really I mean, that's where the rush for me
Speaker 4: comes sometimes because that's magic.
Speaker 2: It's magic, it's sex magic, it's sex magic. That's what
Speaker 2: we're channeling here today. Chapter one of them are throw
Speaker 2: that in my culture, baby, come on.
Speaker 1: A thing I see a lot, especially online, because everyone's
Speaker 1: got an opinion about having sex on Twitter, is that
Speaker 1: because we have apps, we don't need physical cruising spaces,
Speaker 1: or that we are somehow subjecting people to dangerous scenarios
Speaker 1: by engaging and cruising in public spaces. How would you
Speaker 1: sort of unpack that or address that concern, whether or
Speaker 1: not it is being asked in good faith.
Speaker 4: I think we're always going to need physical cruising spaces,
Speaker 4: and we're already learning sort of the damages of social media,
Speaker 4: for example, and how they, you know, cause a disconnect
Speaker 4: with one another. The thing that people have to remember
Speaker 4: is that a lot of us are discovering ourselves in
Speaker 4: cruising spaces. So it might be easy to get on
Speaker 4: an app and be like I'm into this, this, this,
Speaker 4: this and this, but a lot of us don't have that.
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of us discover our sexuality through practice,
Speaker 4: and that's what cruising spaces are meant for. So, for example,
Speaker 4: I learned that I was into larger guys when I
Speaker 4: was in a bathhouse, and that wouldn't have been the
Speaker 4: case if I had just ordered in what I thought
Speaker 4: that I was supposed to be attracted to. A lot
Speaker 4: of other people don't have the luxury of getting on
Speaker 4: an app or being out of the closet. Even so,
Speaker 4: cruising spaces allow us to come into our own sexually
Speaker 4: and also to explore things that maybe wouldn't have occurred
Speaker 4: to us. Is something that's really priceless and something that
Speaker 4: can't be replicated digitally.
Speaker 3: We're going to take a sh up break and when
Speaker 3: we get back, we'll hear Leo's personal advice for first
Speaker 3: time cruisers and two distinct locations more Sniffy's cruising confessions.
Speaker 2: On the way.
Speaker 1: Welcome back, we are chatting with Leo Herredra. So, Leo,
Speaker 1: your new book is called Analog Cruising, Can you tell
Speaker 1: us a bit about it? What prompted you to write
Speaker 1: it and what are we going.
Speaker 2: To find in it?
Speaker 4: So what prompted the Cruising Guide is how much interest
Speaker 4: there is in cruising and also at the same time,
Speaker 4: how we don't know a lot about it because it
Speaker 4: hasn't been spoken about very openly for a really long
Speaker 4: time as we sort of got more dependent on the apps,
Speaker 4: and so many younger people will ask me, like the
Speaker 4: really the most basic parts of it, like what can
Speaker 4: I expect when I walk into a bath house?
Speaker 2: The moment I like, how do I check in? What
Speaker 2: should I bring?
Speaker 4: Or how do I stand in a part? How do
Speaker 4: I depend on not having my phone?
Speaker 3: I mean, I will say as a person, I read
Speaker 3: them before this interview, and I felt so nostalgic reading them,
Speaker 3: experiencing like remembering my first time cruising in a park,
Speaker 3: or like going to the pathouse in particular, like getting
Speaker 3: the courage to go to the bath house, trying to
Speaker 3: find someone to go with me, and sort of like
Speaker 3: going through your checklist and being like, God, I really
Speaker 3: wish I had had this because there was so much
Speaker 3: of the unknown. I just sort of like showed up
Speaker 3: at the bath house and I was like, Okay, now
Speaker 3: what you know and asking a lot of questions at
Speaker 3: the front desk, and they're all rolling their eyes at me,
Speaker 3: like girl, just go in and have a good time,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: But it's such a rite of passage.
Speaker 4: But I think we could have made it a little
Speaker 4: easier for ourselves. And because of the stigma associated to
Speaker 4: these spaces, I had to do the same thing like
Speaker 4: we've all had to. It's such a moment to like
Speaker 4: get the courage to walk into a bath house and
Speaker 4: not know what's.
Speaker 2: On the other side.
Speaker 4: And there's an excitement to that, but I feel like
Speaker 4: there's also an unfairness to how scary it could be
Speaker 4: for some people.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: One of the most basic questions that I get about
Speaker 4: park cruising, for example, is like where do I stand?
Speaker 2: Which is so adorable when like a twenty one year.
Speaker 4: Old like messages you on Instagra and be like, I'd
Speaker 4: love to you, but I just don't know how to stand,
Speaker 4: And You're like, oh, wow, where are you gonna know?
Speaker 4: Like where who would have taught you that? So I'm
Speaker 4: going to read you guys. One of the one of
Speaker 4: the things I'm most proud of in this cruising guide,
Speaker 4: Tip number six says, pretend you're in a museum. Walk
Speaker 4: around at the same pace as an art exhibit and
Speaker 4: use a similar volume. You're either the art or the viewer.
Speaker 4: Mosey around or stand and wait. Tick off your headphones,
Speaker 4: put your phone away, and pay attention. If you're interested
Speaker 4: in someone, walk to them and stand the distance as
Speaker 4: you would a painting. So already you're already letting them know, like,
Speaker 4: don't be talking a lot, like how would you be
Speaker 4: in an art exhibit? And are you the person who
Speaker 4: is being gazed upon or are you the one that's
Speaker 4: sort of looking around for that? And so those kinds
Speaker 4: of really real world tips, I'm really surprised at how
Speaker 4: helpful they've been and how people will be Like, I
Speaker 4: did it, I did the thing, I went to the
Speaker 4: cruising area.
Speaker 3: What happens when you get rejected? How do we behave
Speaker 3: in that in these instances?
Speaker 4: One of the things, one of the most important things
Speaker 4: that we learn in cruising spaces is to not take
Speaker 4: rejection as a reflection of ourselves. And one of the
Speaker 4: I think one of the worst parts about the apps
Speaker 4: is how they allow us to just reject one another
Speaker 4: in a way that we probably wouldn't in person, Like
Speaker 4: I would never go up to some and to be like,
Speaker 4: that's an ugly dick, but you.
Speaker 2: Know that's crazy, or to just stop talking to them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I might. I might. I might be the type
Speaker 2: that would, but I was just saying, godasa likely, so
Speaker 2: I think it.
Speaker 4: Really sometimes the apps encourage some sort of our more
Speaker 4: sociopathic qualities in the Bathhouse Guy Tip number eight is
Speaker 4: do not take rejection as a reflection on you. If
Speaker 4: you get a no, just not courteous, they'll leave their
Speaker 4: space because you don't know why they've said no to you.
Speaker 2: They might be a voyeur.
Speaker 4: Here in the guide that says, you know, it might
Speaker 4: just be a voyeur or exhibitionist or biding their time.
Speaker 4: It may also mean not write this minute and they'll
Speaker 4: find you later. So you have to sort of leave
Speaker 4: yourself and leave all the demons in your head and
Speaker 4: understand like they might just not be into me right now.
Speaker 4: It might just might not be their type, they might
Speaker 4: not be in the mood. They might just want to
Speaker 4: just chill for a minute, So it kind of makes
Speaker 4: you sort of be an adult and accept rejection and
Speaker 4: also give it and return in a way that's courteous
Speaker 4: and then the way that you would want somebody to
Speaker 4: do that for you.
Speaker 2: So one of the.
Speaker 4: Biggest concerns in cruising spaces for younger folks is.
Speaker 2: Like, am I going to say no to the old
Speaker 2: ugly guy?
Speaker 4: Like that's one of the one of the main questions,
Speaker 4: Like what if somebody touches me and I don't want
Speaker 4: them to, And it's very simple.
Speaker 2: You just tap tap them on the arm and then
Speaker 2: you say no, thank you, and that's it.
Speaker 4: Most people that are seizing cruisers in these spaces understand
Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, that's not for me. And if you
Speaker 4: have to get verbal and be like no, they've already
Speaker 4: broken enough rules that they don't belong in that space.
Speaker 4: It teaches us how to accept rejection and to give rejection,
Speaker 4: and that sort of strengthens us and strengthens our sort
Speaker 4: of emotional immune system, because that's the scariest part of
Speaker 4: any kind of interaction, is that someone's going to say no.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I learned because of my
Speaker 4: elders was that's the worst thing that can happen.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, someone just says no and you deal with it.
Speaker 4: And one of the other tips in the guide is like,
Speaker 4: don't go to these spaces when you're not feeling okay,
Speaker 4: you're really depressed, if you're really anxious, if you're like,
Speaker 4: if I don't get laid tonight, I don't know what
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do. That's really unhealthy and so and I've
Speaker 4: done it before, and a lot of us, you know,
Speaker 4: we'll go through a terrible breakup and we'll be like,
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna go get fucked in a bathhouse and
Speaker 4: you know, fuck the pain a way, and there's a
Speaker 4: time and a space for that. But when that doesn't
Speaker 4: function right, it could do real damage. So it's important
Speaker 4: to approach cruising and when you're already feeling centered. If
Speaker 4: you're expecting a stranger to make you feel good about yourself,
Speaker 4: that's a whole different other conversation.
Speaker 2: That you have to have with yourself.
Speaker 3: I am always the person to injury myself to someone
Speaker 3: that I think is attractive, and my friends are always like,
Speaker 3: how do you do that? And I think it's from
Speaker 3: going to the bathhouses and having this like exactly the
Speaker 3: worst thing that could happen is someone just says no,
Speaker 3: and like the other possibilities are endless, you know, and like,
Speaker 3: so what if they say no, I live in New
Speaker 3: York City.
Speaker 2: There is another dick around the corner.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's one of the most important things that
Speaker 4: I was taught. Was wasn't just you know what my
Speaker 4: elders were, my elder with a specific elder who is
Speaker 4: this big ginger bear where I was like, how do.
Speaker 2: You always pick up these beautiful boys?
Speaker 4: And he said, I just ask, and the worst thing
Speaker 4: that can happen is is they say no. But and
Speaker 4: the second part, so that was even just as important.
Speaker 4: He said, that just leaves room for a yes somewhere
Speaker 4: else exactly, And once you sort of fix your mind
Speaker 4: around that where you don't fixate on that guy rejected me.
Speaker 4: That guy rejected me. He was like, yeah, I got rejected.
Speaker 4: The night's still young. Let's keep it moving, let's keep
Speaker 4: it pushing, and maybe we'll find what we want tonight,
Speaker 4: or maybe we won't. But that rush of coming up
Speaker 4: to somebody and introducing yourself, it builds up stamina, and
Speaker 4: it builds up sort of your strength, not only as
Speaker 4: a sexual person but as like a queer person. Yes,
Speaker 4: because we're so used to rejection by the outside world that.
Speaker 2: If we can't get rejection from one another in a sexual,
Speaker 2: playful way, how are we gonna deal with the rest
Speaker 2: of the world that wants to kill us.
Speaker 1: It is so funny because I really do think that
Speaker 1: that being part of like a queer community has prepared
Speaker 1: me for performance and comedy. The one thing that I
Speaker 1: always hear when it comes to cruising and stand up
Speaker 1: comedy is be prepared for a ton of rejections. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, I picked a lifestyle
Speaker 1: where I'm gonna hear no ninety five percent of the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna relish every letter in that word ultimately.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a scrawny little guy, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: a skyreletvel brown guy who's attracted to big, big bears.
Speaker 2: Like I've gotten said no a.
Speaker 4: Ton of times, but the times that they've said yes, Babe,
Speaker 4: changing for everybody.
Speaker 2: For every party involved.
Speaker 1: I love that You're like, I'm gonna, you know, I
Speaker 1: changed their life.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: I do kind of want to get down to these
Speaker 1: two spaces that you've introduced in your writing. The bath
Speaker 1: house and the park. What would you say are the
Speaker 1: differences and similarities between these these two locations of cruising.
Speaker 4: I think of the park it's sort of the Olympics
Speaker 4: of cruising. It's a really difficult learning curve. It's really intimidating.
Speaker 4: You're you're dependent on the elements you're dependent on. Cops
Speaker 4: are exposed to mom's jogging. It's depending on how the
Speaker 4: park is. You're not so sure, but the rewards of
Speaker 4: that are so high. Like I love park cruising when
Speaker 4: I'm in Berlin because I never know what I'm going
Speaker 4: to get, and it's just I have my own ritual.
Speaker 4: I get to I wear something really like nondescript. I
Speaker 4: take my little flask or my little like white claw
Speaker 4: and wait. And a parks, for example, teaches you how
Speaker 4: to wait, and it teaches you to understand the you
Speaker 4: might not get what you want and you don't even
Speaker 4: know if you're gonna have an orgasm, whereas a bath
Speaker 4: house is more about the amenities and you can bring
Speaker 4: a friend with you, and they were built for socializing,
Speaker 4: and they were built sort of as a response to
Speaker 4: being exposed in the elements in parks and things like that.
Speaker 4: So it's almost like their opposite ends of safety and
Speaker 4: of relaxation. So you're not going to be that relaxed
Speaker 4: in the park if you're looking recruising, if you're too relaxed,
Speaker 4: then you're not doing it right because you have to
Speaker 4: be very vigilant about everything, whereas a bath house, all
Speaker 4: you got to do is just lay in a steam
Speaker 4: room and wait and see if somebody hot comes in.
Speaker 4: And the worst thing that can happen is you sat
Speaker 4: in a steamroom and relaxed. One of my favorite bath houses,
Speaker 4: you know, there's a little there's a little place to
Speaker 4: have a little salad and a little white wine, so
Speaker 4: you can bring a friend to those and you can
Speaker 4: sort of like lean into it.
Speaker 2: There's also a lot of.
Speaker 4: Intimidation involved because you have to get completely naked and
Speaker 4: you have to be walking around a towel, and a
Speaker 4: lot of us have a lot of you know, self
Speaker 4: consciousness about our bodies, so they're both kind of have
Speaker 4: a give and take.
Speaker 2: And all cruising areas are like that.
Speaker 4: So I'm doing guides for arcades and for dark rooms
Speaker 4: and for sex clubs.
Speaker 2: Which are a little bit different than the bath house.
Speaker 4: And all of them have sort of different rules of engagement,
Speaker 4: and in the book, I have like a kiki level
Speaker 4: of like this is how much kinkiki here, or like
Speaker 4: you know, this is how you should be thinking about safety,
Speaker 4: whereas like a park, your safety is very very important,
Speaker 4: whereas't a bath house.
Speaker 2: You know, just don't be.
Speaker 4: Fucked up and crack your skull on a tile and
Speaker 4: you'll be fine. Each one of these spaces has a
Speaker 4: different rule of engagement and a different rule of what
Speaker 4: consent looks like and how verbal consent is. And within
Speaker 4: those spaces, like for example, in a bath house, you
Speaker 4: don't just start groping people in the locker room, right,
Speaker 4: That's not what you would do. That's kind of rude.
Speaker 4: But if there's a maze for a steam room, that
Speaker 4: gets a little bit more gropy. So those things are
Speaker 4: sort of they can be spelled out, and that's why
Speaker 4: I'm spelling them out in these guides. But after a
Speaker 4: while you sort of start to realize that they all
Speaker 4: have a rhythm and that you you just have to
Speaker 4: pay attention. And I think that's the thing that sort
Speaker 4: of gets lost when we get too dependent on apps,
Speaker 4: as we start learning how to like look up, look up,
Speaker 4: like look up.
Speaker 2: Mary as well.
Speaker 3: Tell everybody what is your favorite cruising moment? Oh my god,
Speaker 3: oh my.
Speaker 4: Least favorite actually happened this year, and this guy broke
Speaker 4: every single room, like every single rule imaginable. I was
Speaker 4: in a park in Berlin and there was a power
Speaker 4: bottom against the tree and I went in there and
Speaker 4: I did my thing and I'm fucking I'm really hard
Speaker 4: and I smelled that he at Popper's, so I was like, hey,
Speaker 4: can I take a whiff of those? And as I'm
Speaker 4: jackhammering this man, he looks back and goes, no, I'm
Speaker 4: not a store.
Speaker 2: Get your own. I was like, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 2: inside you. Correct, Yeah, like we are. We are in
Speaker 2: an intimate act. We are showing things to each other. Wow.
Speaker 4: I was like, are you I'm like, I pop out
Speaker 4: and I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? And the
Speaker 4: queens around me were like no, she did it. And
Speaker 4: now I was like, get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 4: I'm like, are you out of your fucking mind talking
Speaker 4: to me like that?
Speaker 1: Wait, but at this point you've got there are other
Speaker 1: people there as well, so you've got like a little crowd.
Speaker 2: This is like the third actually people got there.
Speaker 4: Were sort of like whoa, yeah, and so I'm like,
Speaker 4: get the fuck out.
Speaker 2: Of here, you rude ass bitch.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, you're not having sex with anybody here,
Speaker 4: and I was like, I want to make sure you're
Speaker 4: having super uncomfortable So we sort of like hissed him
Speaker 4: out of there.
Speaker 2: And this other queen who I who would wouldn't have
Speaker 2: been my type, but she was like, I can't believe
Speaker 2: that happened. And I was like, was that just me?
Speaker 2: Because it's like, you know, midnight? Is it just me?
Speaker 2: Was that like the rudest thing you've ever heard ever?
Speaker 4: She was like, we don't talk to each other like
Speaker 4: that in these faces, Like I was just it was
Speaker 4: so gross, and me and him just sat there and
Speaker 4: we talked for a while, and then after we were
Speaker 4: done talking. He was not my type at all, but
Speaker 4: after we were done talking, we had this thing that
Speaker 4: we shirt.
Speaker 2: I was like, we were both like, you know, I'm trying.
Speaker 4: Having sex and it was so hot because we shared
Speaker 4: this moment out there, and then out of nowhere, these
Speaker 4: two just my type guys came in to like surround us,
Speaker 4: and I was like I couldn't have ordered either of
Speaker 4: them if I had tried, and so all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: this moment that was so rude and kind of a
Speaker 4: little bit demoralizing and was really I was like, I've never.
Speaker 2: Felt so used as the top before. All of a
Speaker 2: sudden it.
Speaker 4: Became this communal kind of like experience. And then even
Speaker 4: though me and this guy weren't exactly one another's type,
Speaker 4: we sort of connected sexually, and then that energy and
Speaker 4: us having sat there and like kind of processed it
Speaker 4: brought all of these people around us, and then all
Speaker 4: of a sudden we both had exactly what we wanted.
Speaker 4: This other guy was like he was he was like,
Speaker 4: this is just my type, and I'm like, these two
Speaker 4: are just my type too, And it ended up turning
Speaker 4: into this like really tender, sweet orgy of like six
Speaker 4: people outside in the summer in a park.
Speaker 2: And it would have never happened had that first kuyd have.
Speaker 4: Been a total dick and it And there was a
Speaker 4: moment there that I wanted to leave because I felt
Speaker 4: so grossed out by that experience and being talked to
Speaker 4: sort of that way and the way the way that
Speaker 4: he talked to me and treated me, and I didn't leave,
Speaker 4: and instead I sort of, you know, commiserated with a sister,
Speaker 4: and that created this whole nother energy and this whole
Speaker 4: experience that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
Speaker 2: So that's my favorite, my two favorite ones, And that
Speaker 2: was a perfect story.
Speaker 1: It would have been such a gag if you'd asked
Speaker 1: for popersy and turned around tap tap tap no.
Speaker 2: No, that would have been so much better. I'm not
Speaker 2: a store who the.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the store ising like I had a line ready
Speaker 1: and wanted to try it out on an unwilling crowd.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think the thing that I would leave the audience
Speaker 4: with about cruising is always just to trust your gut
Speaker 4: and your comfort level whenever you're in any of these spaces,
Speaker 4: and if something doesn't feel right, you are not obligated
Speaker 4: to partake, You're not obligated to be there.
Speaker 2: You're not missing out on anything.
Speaker 4: Those spaces will always be there for you for when
Speaker 4: you are ready perfect.
Speaker 2: Trust your gut before you slide something inside it.
Speaker 3: Leo, thank you so much for stopping by to educate me,
Speaker 3: Gabe and our listeners on cruising.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, this has been so much fun and so enlightening.
Speaker 1: I'd love to know, Leo, where can folks listening or
Speaker 1: watching find you online.
Speaker 4: I am at Instagram and Twitter at Herrera Images and
Speaker 4: on substack at Herrera Words, and you'll be able to
Speaker 4: buy my analog cruising.
Speaker 2: Guide at if They Lived dot org. Awesome. All right, y'all,
Speaker 2: don't go anywhere. I'm all right.
Speaker 3: It's almost an end of our show, which means it's
Speaker 3: time to play pump and dump.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get some topics and we have to vote
Speaker 1: pump or dump, pump being a very positive affirmation and
Speaker 1: dump being a literal dump where you're throwing it out.
Speaker 1: All right, So our first one is Captain Rush, the
Speaker 1: little known mascot of Rush Poppers.
Speaker 2: They used to have one. He's a superhero.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think he wears a crop top.
Speaker 1: He's got like a crop top and like like leggings on,
Speaker 1: like form fitting leggings. Yeah, that's a pump. It's a
Speaker 1: pump for me. Yeah, yeah, I like. I like an
Speaker 1: off brand Dollar Store superhero. Look, it's my favorite for sure.
Speaker 1: So here's the next topic for you. Pickleball absolute dumb
Speaker 1: any athletics dump. I didn't say that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if it needs a racket and a ball, I'm out.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. Yeah, no, that's a dump for me.
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, we don't learn how to play pickleball,
Speaker 1: are you kidding? I disappointed my parents enough when they
Speaker 1: learned I couldn't play baseball. There's nothing left for me
Speaker 1: after that. We're done with sports, all right.
Speaker 3: Next on our list is Art the Clown. I don't
Speaker 3: know who that is either, but also clowns. It's an
Speaker 3: immediate dump for me. Oh no, clowns are not sexy.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. No, but you're thinking circus clown.
Speaker 3: But clowns are like terrifying. Yeah, but those are circus
Speaker 3: clown There's no way you can make a clown sexy.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: I promise you they're fun. They can be.
Speaker 2: I will say.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite clowns I've ever seen is named
Speaker 1: your Girlfriend, and they were performing actually at our producer
Speaker 1: Adam's Inferno party, and it was a really great performance.
Speaker 2: It was spectacular.
Speaker 1: All right, Art the Clown is a dump, but I
Speaker 1: stand clowning, just not horror clowns, all right.
Speaker 3: The last one is the man in the Sniffy's logo.
Speaker 3: There's a man, There's a man. There's a man in
Speaker 3: the logo. Yeah, like in the little swivel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this guy. It's him, it's him.
Speaker 1: He told me about this guest of honor, like you
Speaker 1: see you know how like that little wave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is him and he's got his dick under
Speaker 2: the stall. I love on.
Speaker 1: Wait actually, like yeah, can we get a little can
Speaker 1: I inspect more close?
Speaker 3: There's like a very a lot worth inspector Dick.
Speaker 1: I want to know who modeled for this, and I
Speaker 1: want to find them and meet them in person. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is incredible. I just I really I need everyone
Speaker 1: to know the ratio of Dick to boy.
Speaker 2: This is out of thicker than his forum.
Speaker 1: It is absolutely thicker than his forums. And his balls
Speaker 1: are about as large as like half of his face
Speaker 1: each ball. Yeah, this is really great. These are impeccable proportions.
Speaker 1: I need to know who's his surgeon. It's very lovely
Speaker 1: from the back, Okay, we can work on that. From
Speaker 1: the front, it's amazing. Okay, So the man in the
Speaker 1: Sniffy's logo is pomp.
Speaker 2: We got it all right. We learned so much this week,
Speaker 2: we really did.
Speaker 1: I have to thank Leohreda for calling in. That was
Speaker 1: such a fun interview. Please remember to check out his substack,
Speaker 1: edit it out words, and his new manual Analog Cruising.
Speaker 3: And if you want to read even more about cruising
Speaker 3: in general, head over to Sniffy's hash where we're posting
Speaker 3: a list of our favorite books about gay cruiser.
Speaker 1: Including one from nineteen thirty eight. People have been cruising
Speaker 1: for a very long time.
Speaker 2: Thank you for watching or listening.
Speaker 1: Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is directed by Adam Barron, produced by
Speaker 1: Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive produced by Eli Martin.
Speaker 3: Cruising Confessions is presented by Sniffy's the Ultimate Map Cruising Platforms.
Speaker 3: We're Gay by incurious people ready to cruise. Check out
Speaker 3: the map at sniffys dot com and follow Sniffy's on
Speaker 3: all socials at Sniffy's app.
Speaker 2: Put your put, put your put, your
Speaker 4: H