1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. It's a given that any 2 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: mother daughter relationship is going to have good days and 3 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: bad days, ups and downs throughout their life together. But 4 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: what would drive a daughter dinner to an agreement the 5 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: young man that she has supposedly fallen in love with 6 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: fly down to Bali, a sixteen hour flight from LA 7 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: have that young man enter into a hotel room, pick 8 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: up a large decorative bowl and beat that young woman's 9 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: mother into a bolivion. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 10 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: his body backs back with me again today is my 11 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: good friend Jackie Howard, Executive producer of Crime Stories with 12 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Jackie, what do we have on this case? 13 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: As you said, Joe Heather Mack was serving a sentence 14 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: involley for her part in the death of her mother. 15 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: Mac was prosecuted and convicted in Indonesia over the twenty 16 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: fourteen killing of Sheila von Weiss Mac at the Saint 17 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: Regi's Molly Resort. After serving seven of her ten years sentence, 18 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: she was expelled from the country. Upon her release, she 19 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: was sent back to the US along with her daughter. 20 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: Mac was pregnant at the time of this murder, Heather 21 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Mac and her daughter landed at an airport in Chicago, 22 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: at O'Hare International, and at that moment she was arrested 23 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: by the FBI on charges of conspiracy to kill in 24 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: a foreign country, conspiracy to commit a foreign murder of 25 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: a US now, and obstruction. Now, Heathermack has pleaded not 26 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: guilty to all of those charges. But Joe, as you 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: mentioned going in, the relationship between Heathermack and her mother 28 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: was contentious to say the least. We do know that 29 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: in her younger days, the relationship between Heather and her 30 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: mother was very volatile. Police were called to their home 31 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: more than eighty times. In fact, we know that according 32 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: to statements made to the police, Sheila would say that 33 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: Heather would hit her and bite her. She even pushed 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: her in the bathroom so hard one time that Sheila 35 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: fell and broke her arm. What kind of damage is 36 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: that gonna do, Joe? Are injuries like that bumps and bruises? 37 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: Are they going to leave any lasting images? Obviously to 38 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: broken bone? Would you know? Over a period of time, 39 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: people are subjected to ongoing abuse. And make no mistake, 40 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: this is ongoing abuse, is familial abuse. It does just 41 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: have to be between a husband or a wife, or 42 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, a child and a parent. It can it 43 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: doesn't just have to be between a parent and a 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: young child. Actually the reverse can happen. You can have 45 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: older children that will abuse their parents. And you know, 46 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: in cases like this, where people are sustaining ongoing trauma 47 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: throughout their life, you'll have external scars that occur, say, 48 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: for instance, if they've been lacerated on the head somehow, 49 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: where they've got these blunt force traumas they've bumped into 50 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: things like the toilet, maybe the side of the tub 51 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: or even a table, or if they've been struck by something, 52 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: and you know, you begin to think about also these 53 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: fractures that the mother had sustained in her life. You know, 54 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I've seen any number of cases over the years with 55 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: ongoing abuse where you take an X ray of a 56 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: body and you can actually see it present these old, 57 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: healed fractures, and they'll they'll get these kind of nodular 58 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: appearances to them, particularly if they go unreported, Jackie, if 59 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: if the family doesn't want to make a scene about it, 60 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: if they don't want to talk about it relative to 61 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: any of the authorities, sometimes they'll just allow these things 62 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: to heal on their own, and no one says anything else. 63 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: And here's the problem. If it happens once, it'll happen 64 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. And generally the level 65 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: of trauma increases with each one of these events because 66 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: the attacker feels very, very comfortable in doing this. It's 67 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: not just about hurling verbal assaults on someone. You start 68 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: to get into these physical, physical confrontations, and the attacker 69 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: always gains the upper hand because you know what, They 70 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: know that their victim is fearful of them. You're absolutely right, Joe. 71 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: We do know that she Lavon Wi Smack had told 72 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: friends and family that in the past she had been 73 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: afraid of her daughter, and this trip to Bolly was 74 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: an attempt to renew their relationship. The mother and daughter 75 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: had been having trouble because she the mother, did not 76 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: approve of the current relationship that Mac was in. She 77 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: was dating Tommy Schaeffer. Now, what Sheila von Wissmac did 78 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: not know was that Heather had used her mother's credit 79 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: card to buy Tommy an airplane ticket through Bali, a 80 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: twelve thousand dollars purchase. Just ten hours after he arrived. 81 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: Sheila von wiss Mac was dead. So he was seen 82 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: on the video camera coming into the room with the 83 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: decorative bowl that you were mentioning tucked up under his shirt. 84 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: So right away we see that something is planned, Joe. 85 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: You know, Jackie, it is planned. But you know, one 86 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: of the things I was thinking about in this case, 87 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: and I've seen it in a few other cases over 88 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: the course of my career, is that sometimes the weapons 89 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: that a perpetrator chooses, or what we referred to as 90 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: weapons of convenience or weapons of opportunity. You've got a 91 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: young man that, as you had mentioned, had made this 92 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: lengthy flight, very expensive flight down there to boy and 93 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: at some point in time we know that Heather got 94 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: in contact with this kid while he was in the 95 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: hotel and said, bring something heavy. What does that mean, Well, 96 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: it can be implied at least that you're looking for 97 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: an object to use to bludgeon somebody with. And so 98 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: that our listeners understand what this means. When we hear 99 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: about a term of bludgeoning, most of the time, that 100 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: means that it's a heavy object that someone picks up 101 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: and utilizes for the express purpose of beating someone, inflicting 102 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: what we refer to as blunt force trauma. And in 103 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: this case, boy, did the mother ever sustain extensive trauma? 104 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: And I can get into that, but what's very important 105 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: here is that the object itself, it's not like a 106 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: cereal bowl. Okay, think of a bowl that has been 107 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: identified as a decorative ball. This bowl is probably not inexpensive. 108 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: It's something that is owned by the hotel. It's high quality. 109 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: And guess what the glass surface on this thing is 110 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: probably inches, not an inch, but probably inches thick, particularly 111 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: down at the dome of it. So if someone is 112 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: going to use a bowl in order to beat someone with, 113 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: just imagine gripping the lip of the bowl, okay, and 114 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: you're going to turn it over almost like you're holding 115 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: a helmet in your hand, only the dome of the 116 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: helmet is going to be that's going to be the 117 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: business end. That's the end that's actually going to make 118 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: contact with the tissue with the bone, and it's going 119 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: to be driven into this individual's body. So, Joe, does 120 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: it take necessarily a heavy object to do something like 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: this or is it the force that the person that's 122 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: using it is wielding that's going to do the damage. 123 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: Which is it? Is it the heavy object or the 124 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: force in general. You know, it's a combination of both, Jackie. 125 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: And you know when you pick up a bowl like 126 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: this or any hot, heavy object, you have to think 127 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: about the energy that's being transferred. If you're going to 128 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: beat somebody, from the hips of the perpetrator to the 129 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: shoulder extending out to the arm, and the further way 130 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: you hold this thing at its distal point in the 131 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: individual's arm, you get this tremendous amount of velocity that 132 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: is generated as those hips and the shoulder go in 133 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: to this motion, and it's a downward kind of a 134 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: downward event. I suspect that they had this poor woman 135 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: on the floor and as they swing this thing down, 136 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: all of that energy is transferring to, like I said, 137 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: this rather robust, heavy bowl and it's being driven into 138 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: her skull. And let me tell you something. The damage 139 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: that was involved, and this is solid, Jackie, is unlike 140 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: anything that you normally see. There was a level of 141 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: verocity to this that we can't really describe without you know, 142 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: being able to physically be there and see it. But 143 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: let me tell you what had happened. If if folks 144 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: at home will essentially touch the area beneath both of 145 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: your eyes and you feel those bony structures. Those are 146 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: called a suborbital rims that that's that goes into the 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: orbits that the eyes actually fit into the sockets, and 148 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: then you have the bony prominence of the nose. Well, 149 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: all of that, all of that was fractured. This poor 150 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: woman was literally beaten to death. We use that term 151 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: a lot in in our world, a true crime, but 152 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: in this case, it's absolutely the truth. Beaten to death. Joe, 153 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: Can we explain what that is because there's some things 154 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: that we find out about this case with Sheila von 155 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: Wye Smack. You were talking about the fractures in her 156 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: face and that in itself led to bleeding, which led 157 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: to some other issues. So let's first explain what it 158 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: means to be beaten to death and then talk about 159 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: what resulted from the damage that was done to her head. 160 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: In this particular case, what we're looking at is, you know, 161 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: her facial bones were actually fractured. And you know, when 162 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: we touch our face, we think about you know, you 163 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: touch beneath your eyes and you can feel the base 164 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: of your eye sockets down there. You can also feel 165 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: your nose and maybe your nose feels rather firm. Maybe 166 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: the frontal bone of your skull, that's that leading that 167 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: leading bone that comprises your forehead. Essentially, it feels robust, 168 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: doesn't it. But once you begin to strike those areas, 169 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: and of course she was struck multiple times with this 170 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: heavy decorative bowl, it's those little bones that dwell behind 171 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: that area. You know what's really fascinating When you do 172 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: an autopsy on an individual, and we literally do take 173 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: off the skull cap at autopsy to take out the brain, 174 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: we have to examine the interior of the skull. Did 175 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: you know that you can actually take a flashlight and 176 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: place it, turn it on, and place it up to 177 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: the eye, to the eye area of a deceased individual, 178 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: and you can see that light shining through the floor 179 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: of the skull if you will. That's how thin those 180 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: bones are. I want all of our listeners to think 181 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: about this. That bone, that bone is actually about the 182 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: thickness of an eggshell. And you get into the nose, 183 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: those bones are very very fragule as well, and so 184 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: those have all been fractured. In addition to that, this 185 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: poor woman has got a fractured vertebra, and she's got 186 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: other insulted areas all around the circumference of her skull. 187 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: So you've got an event where this woman is not 188 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: just being struck in the face, she's actually being struck 189 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: in the rear, on the sides and on top of 190 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: her head as well. You know, when you're actually beaten 191 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: to death. This is what we mean by bludgeoning. It's grotesque. 192 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: And what you're talking about is it's massive trauma where 193 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: not only do you have multiple massive fracturing, but you've 194 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: got what are called microfractures all through the body. That 195 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: eggshell thickness bone that we're referring to like the surface 196 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: of the interior floor of the skull, if you will, 197 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: and all of the sinus regions. Those little bones literally 198 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: come apart just like an eggshell fragment. And so not 199 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: only are fragmenting the bone itself, but you know, there 200 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: are these little tiny holes in the bone that are 201 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: actually called for raiment, and that's where the vessels run 202 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: up through. So every time you smash one of these bones, 203 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: you actually clip these vessels and the individual begins to 204 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: bleed out internally, those little vessels are all clipped. Not 205 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: to mention the major ones that are supplying the brain itself, 206 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: so you're dealing with massive fracturing, and then the brain 207 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: begins to swell because it's becoming engorged with blood. The 208 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: brain is very fragile, and as it begins to engorge, 209 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: it begins to swell and it can't function. It can't 210 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: function at all. And so when we talk about things 211 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: like being beaten to death or bludgeing to death, just 212 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: think of it in this sense that it is in 213 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: fact massive massive trauma. So along with what you're saying there, Joe, 214 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: we know that when you have that kind of damage 215 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: tissue tearing, bone fracturing, the bones are going to damage 216 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: the tissues inside, and as you said, we have bleeding. 217 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: This led to a major finding for Shela von wie Smack. 218 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: You know, Jackie, it did. And when I read this, 219 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I remember covering this case and when I first read it, 220 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: I was reflecting on this because not only did the 221 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: pathologist rule this death as massive blunt force trauma, the 222 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: real kicker here is that this is an asphyxial death. 223 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: And you think, you know, most of the time we 224 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: talk about its phyxial death, we think about people that 225 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: are being strangled or smothered or choked or you know, 226 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: or you know, strangled, say for instance, with a cord 227 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: or rope, or maybe somebody's bare hands. Not in this case. 228 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: You know, what this actually turned out to be, Jackie, 229 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: is that you remember all those little bones and the 230 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: blood that I was talking about that are fractured away 231 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: within within the context of the sinuses, those little bones 232 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: as she's as she is laying there and she's gasping 233 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: for breath, gasping for her life. She's inhalating, inhalating all 234 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: of this blood that's being generated from the skull trauma 235 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: and also those little flecks of bone and guess where 236 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: they're going. They're all going down her trachea into her 237 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: airway and it's including her airway. So she begins to 238 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: asphyxiate as a result of this. So she's really got 239 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: a double dosee here, doesn't she. She's got this massive 240 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: head trauma and all the while some people actually refer 241 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: to this as an individual drowning in their own blood, 242 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: if you will, And it's an absolutely horrific way to die. 243 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: And the fascinating part about this is that the daughter 244 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: and the boyfriend would have been present for this. They 245 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: would have heard what would have been the best way 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: to kind of term it would be a gurgling sound 247 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: as she's breathing her last you would have actually seen 248 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: blood bubbling up out of her nose and out of 249 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: her mouth as she's struggling to breathe. And there her 250 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: daughter stands, this daughter that in life, this woman had 251 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: given birth to and had nurtured throughout her life. I've 252 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: provided a roof over her head. She watched her mother 253 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: just there in this horrible state, essentially drowned to death 254 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: on her own blood. Okay, so let's be technical here, Joe. 255 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: You said drownding in her own blood, and you describe 256 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: this as an asphyxiation. Are they the same thing? I mean, 257 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: did she drowned or was she asphyxiated? Yeah, that's that's 258 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: a point it needs to be made here. You know, 259 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: when people say that an individual drowns in their own blood, 260 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: that essentially is kind of a metaphor for what's going on. 261 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: But in essence, what's happening is that the blood is 262 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: going down the airway and as it's being inhalated, that 263 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: means to breathe in all of that tissue that's issuing 264 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: forth out of these fractured sinus areas is being drawn 265 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: down into the trachea and it's blocking the airway. So 266 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: that's where the asphyxia comes in. Now, when the autopsy 267 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: would have been performed, let me kind of paint the 268 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: picture for what they would have seen when this poor 269 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: woman's lungs were removed in her airway, which is something 270 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: we do at autopsy, they would have opened them and 271 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: as they opened them, blood and probably clotted blood would 272 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: have literally poured out of the trachea. And it's just 273 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: not a normal finding. And as you begin to examine 274 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: the lungs and you dissect the lungs and the little 275 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: air sacks, you'll actually find focal areas of hemorrhage that 276 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: are contained therein And that's her blood that's coming from 277 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: her head literally from these fractured areas, and she's breathing 278 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: it into those tiny little air sacks into her lung So, yeah, 279 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of a drowning process in the sense that 280 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: you know when an individual drowns and water, what are 281 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: they doing, Well, they're inhalating water, and we know that 282 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: water and the lungs is not compatible with life. Well, 283 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: neither is blood. And neither is bone in this case. 284 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess you could say in a way, 285 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: this woman did, in fact drown on her own blood. 286 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: What about defensive wounds, Joe, We know that, as you 287 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: have said, she was beaten very very badly, but there, 288 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: if I understand it correctly, there were wounds on her hands, 289 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: on her arms that most likely were defensive wounds. Describe 290 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: those for me. Yeah. You know, most of the time 291 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: when you see defensive wounds, Jackie, on an individual, they're 292 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: going to present, particularly when we're talking about blunt force 293 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: trauma like a bludgeoning event like this, you're going to 294 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: pick up on what are called focal areas of hemorrhage, 295 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: all right, So they're going to come up as bruises. 296 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: And again that's that's just a ten dollar term for 297 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: a bruise. And what's fascinating is that at the morgue, 298 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 1: at the autopsy room, if we have the weapon that 299 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,239 Speaker 1: was used in this case, we fluct back to what 300 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: we've already talked about with this heavy glass decorative bowl. 301 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: If that bowl has any kind of pattern to it, 302 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: just think, you know, if you've ever been to one 303 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: of your relatives homes and they've got a fancy candy dish, 304 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: for instance, and it will have those kind of very 305 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: sharp edges on it, you know, that were formed in 306 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: some glass factory somewhere. Those patterns will actually begin to 307 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: demonstrate on the soft tissue. You'd find them on the head. 308 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: But let's just think about her hands and her arms. 309 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: What's really horrifying about this is that because she had 310 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: these injuries on her hands and arms, we know that 311 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: she had an awareness. It's not like they just walked 312 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: up behind her jackie and knocked her unconscious. No, no, no, 313 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: that's not what happened in this case. This woman was 314 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: initially attacked. This guy probably came at her with a 315 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: bowl with incredible ferocity because it takes a lot of 316 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: energy to do this. She has enough awareness where she's 317 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: going to raise not one arm, not one hand, but 318 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: both arms and both hands in order to try to 319 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: fend him off. And the reason we know this is 320 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: that there are multiple contusions over the surfaces of both 321 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: hands and both arms. So this gives you an idea 322 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: that she's attempted to fend this attacker off. Now, her daughter, Heather, 323 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: says that the entire time this was going on, she 324 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: was hiding in the bathroom and she's putting it all 325 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: off on a boyfriend. But just think about how horrific 326 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: this is. It's the daughter's involved in this, and she's 327 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: trying to control mam and this guy's swinging this bowl around. 328 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 1: We do know that she's gone to the ground at 329 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: this point because we think back to her injuries. We 330 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: know that she's got a fractured vertebra. Well, you don't 331 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: fracture vertebrate simply by striking somebody in the nose with 332 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: a bowl. That's something that she's trying to roll away from. 333 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: And so he crashes his bowl down on her cervical 334 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: vertebra and actually fractures it. People don't realize how much 335 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: force that takes. So there's an awareness we've got these 336 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: defensive wounds that are playing into this. She's rolling around 337 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: because she's got these injuries on multiple planes, on the 338 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: sides of her head, the top of course, the front, 339 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: and eventually in the back where this vertebrus fracture. You 340 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: have your mama beaten to death by your boyfriend and 341 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: you're in a foreign country, sixteen hour plane ride from 342 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: LA What are you gonna do next? You're in a 343 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: foreign country. What are you gonna do with the body 344 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: after this attack happens. Well, that was a good question 345 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: that they had to figure out, Joe, what do you 346 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: do with the body? We know that Heather Mac and 347 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: her boyfriend put her mother inside a suitcase. That suitcase 348 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: was transported downstairs as if they were checking out. It 349 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: was put into a taxi and they tried to slip 350 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: away to another hotel to not get caught. But what 351 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: we find out is the tax seed driver calls the 352 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: police once he pulls out the suitcase and there is 353 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: large amounts of blood soaking through the suitcase. And I 354 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: have to tell you, Joe, I really don't even know 355 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: where to start on this, but so let's just start there. 356 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: We know that once your heart stops beating, that blood 357 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: stops pumping. So first, how did the suitcase get so bloody? Well, 358 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, when you see images of the suitcase jacket, 359 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of striking. You're handling luggage and all of 360 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: a sudden you come across this. It's actually a rigid suitcase. 361 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: It's not some kind of gym baglike thing. And you've 362 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: got blood smeared all on the outside of this thing. Well, 363 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: that tells us a lot about the dynamic that went 364 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: on after death. These individuals that we're tasked, that's the 365 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: daughter and the boyfriend with getting this woman's body into 366 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: this people are calling a large suitcase. It's really not 367 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: that large. It's no larger than anything else. You'd go 368 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: and buy it some luggage place or some shop out there. 369 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: It's pretty standard. They would have to have tightly folded 370 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: her up in here. And you're talking about this blood 371 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,959 Speaker 1: issuing from the body post mortal, Well, yeah, it's going 372 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: to issue from the body post more. And first of all, 373 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: blood is liquid, so it's going to seek the lowest 374 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: point of gravity and it trust me, if you've got 375 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: these horrendous injuries to your face like this poor woman did, 376 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: blood is going to seep out of there and it 377 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: will be a copious That means that's a fancy word 378 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: for a lot. As you know, friends of pathologists like 379 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: to use the term copious. It's a lot of blood. 380 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: It would have seeped out and depended upon how her 381 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: body is position and this is key. If they've got 382 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: her body turned on its side in any way, trying 383 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: to roll her around and manipulate her. This is no 384 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: easy task to jam her into this suitcase. There will 385 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: be blood everywhere. It'll be issuing from her now greatly 386 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: fractured nose. It's traumatized, She's probably got lacerations all of 387 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: her face and all over the top of her head. 388 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: And I can't, I cannot go another second without reminding 389 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: everybody that again, the head is the most vascular area 390 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: of the body. It has the most vessels in it. 391 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: So therefore logic would dictate you're probably going to have 392 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: the most blood that's in dwelling there. Remember, she'd lived 393 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: long enough probably for a brain to swell up a 394 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: little bit, so she's gonna be in gorged with this fluid, 395 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: and so it's getting everywhere. Can you imagine they're not 396 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: equipped to do this. They're not wearing any kind of 397 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: environmental protection suits or anything. They're up there and they're 398 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, and they're standard everyday clothes, and they're trying 399 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: to manipulate this woman's body into the suitcase. So they're 400 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: going to be covered with blood. And in forensics, what 401 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,959 Speaker 1: we refer to this as is transfer blood. So if 402 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: you put your hands on a bloody surface or on 403 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: a bloody body, and then you touch somewhere else, like 404 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: the exterior of this suit case, you'll have blood all 405 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: on the outside of it. It'll be all over you, 406 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: It'll be on the contacting surfaces underlying the suitcase because 407 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: you're having to leverage, so it's going to be on 408 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: the carpeted surface or the marble floor or the wooden 409 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: floor that's supporting the suitcase. And then if you're having 410 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: to leverage your body, say there's a coffee table, you 411 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: have to move it out of the way, and all 412 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: these things people don't think about when they're contacting these surfaces. 413 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: That's how we catch people lots of times with forensics, 414 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: because people do not understand that everywhere they touch in 415 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: this environment, there's going to be a trace left behind. 416 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: And when you create such a bloody mess as was 417 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: created with this attack, you'll have blood all over the place. 418 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: So that explains why the exterior of this suitcase is 419 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: just covered or bathed in blood. I would have to imagine, also, Joe, 420 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: that the pressure that they are putting on this body 421 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: to get it to fit into a particular area. I 422 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: guess it would have to kind of be like pushing 423 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: on a balloon. Trying to push air out of a balloon, 424 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: so that it is actually forcing the blood out of 425 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: the body at any opening that it can get out. 426 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: You've got a gold star today, Jackie. You've learned, and 427 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm pleased with that comment. You're absolutely right. It's it's 428 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: almost I like the analogy better of like squeezing an orange. 429 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: If you if you cut a slit into an orange 430 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: and you begin to squeeze the exterior of that orange, 431 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: you don't have to squeeze it very hard. But if 432 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: there's already an existing defect of the orange, where's fluid 433 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: going to go. Well, it's going to seek that area 434 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: that has the least amount of tension on it, and 435 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: all of that fluid, you know, for instance, like an orange, 436 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: is mostly water, so it's going to pour out of 437 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: that area. And as they are manipulating her body, even 438 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: though the heart is no longer pumping, if you're manipulating 439 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: the legs, say, bending them at the hips and at 440 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: the knees and at the feet, and you're having to 441 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: contain the arms, that's almost got a pumping action, doesn't it. 442 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: And you've already created these little defects or holes in 443 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: the body from this bludgeoning event. You're pumping blood out 444 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: of the body. You can't stop it. The only way 445 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: you can, really, I don't know, kind of kind of 446 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: slow it down is if you take something like a 447 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: towel or a plastic bag and wrap the head in. 448 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you, Jackie, based upon what I've 449 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: seen and what I've heard about this case, it seems 450 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: very frenzied. It doesn't seem like they put a lot 451 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: of thought into it. And you know what we think 452 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: about that bowl. It's not like he went out and 453 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: got a hammer. It's it's you know, it's not like 454 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: he went out and got a lead pipe. He went 455 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: and got a decorative bowl. Of all things in the 456 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: world that you're going to use to kill somebody with, 457 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: this is what you choose. So that gives us an 458 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: indication they're not putting a lot of thought into this. 459 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: And of course that's played out, you know at the 460 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: end of the day when they decide to leave the hotel, 461 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: and for them to be able to leave the hotel, 462 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: they had to dispose of the body, and their decision 463 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: was to put ship livon wy Smack into the suitcase. 464 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: And knowing Joe what they had to do is just 465 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: mind boggling to me. Besides the fact that they killed 466 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: her mother, what they did to dispose of this body. 467 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: How do you put a human inside of a suitcase? 468 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: You know, Jackie. One of the things that I found 469 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating about this this young man, and you know, 470 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: we've talked about how this is kind of a what 471 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: I would refer to as a disorganized event. He actually 472 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: went down to the front desk after having committed this 473 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: horrible crime and asked people to front desk for duct tape. 474 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: Can you imagine. So the reason is is that they've 475 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: got to do something in order to secure her body 476 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: within the suitcase. Either one of two things. Either that 477 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: can't tighten her down enough like binding her to get 478 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: her down to the size that they need her to 479 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: her body to come apply to to get within this 480 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: rigid suitcase, or they can't get the case closed well 481 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: enough and so they're having to, you know, kind of 482 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: wrap this thing up. I think that what was going 483 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: on is they couldn't contain her body well enough, so 484 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: they're having to kind of bind her down to get 485 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: her into this environment. Can't imagine that these people felt 486 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: that comfortable around something this grotesque, and so there's a 487 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: certain level of tension that comes along with this, and 488 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: you don't think about what you're doing, but what you 489 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: do know is that you want to put as much 490 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: distance between yourself and this crime, and the crime is 491 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: symbolized by this body. They want to try to put 492 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: as much distance between themselves and this body. But how 493 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: do you do that? Because remember, they're not in Chicago, 494 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: they're not familiar with the streets, they have no idea, 495 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: they're disoriented to where everything is. And now on top 496 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: of that, you've got to get rid of human remains. 497 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: It's a it's a very dawning task. So how do 498 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: you do it, though, Joe? How do you put a 499 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: body knowing that lividity is going to set in where 500 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: the joints stiffen and making movement of a body, making 501 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: the movements difficult. So what would they had to have done? 502 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean, are you talking about breaking breaking bones, which 503 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: is hard to do just with the human hands, are 504 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: you talking about popping tendons? Or I mean, what physically 505 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: happened here to her body? Well, there's no indications there 506 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: was any kind of dismemberment that took place, but What 507 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: can happen in order to manipulate bodies into small spaces 508 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: is not necessarily the fracturing of bones, but you can 509 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: place enough tension, enough force rather is a better term, 510 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: enough force on to say the extremities like the knees 511 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: and particularly the hip points, so that generally gives people 512 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: the most trouble and shoulders to disjoint them. Now, just 513 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: let that sink in for a second, because that takes 514 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force because you have all of 515 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: these ligament attachments that have to become dislodged. Just the 516 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: joint where the hip fits in to the pelvic girdle 517 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: is very robust. So in a case like this where 518 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: you're not doing dismemberment, you're literally going to have to 519 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: disjoint the body and kind of fold it in on itself. 520 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: And that's going to take time. And I'm glad you 521 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: brought up post mortem lavidity in this case. And the 522 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: reason is is that with a case like this, one 523 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: of the things you're going to want to examine is 524 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: the distribution of blood settling in the body. Now, this 525 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: is not something that I would imagine, and I've got 526 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: a reason for this. This is not something I would 527 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: imagine that they did willy nilly to begin with. They 528 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: had to think about this at least for a moment. 529 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: And now they didn't plan it very well, but they 530 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: had to get that body out of there. So they're 531 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: sitting there scratching their heads. How are we going to 532 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: do this? So, all the while this woman's body is 533 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: in there, blood settling. You can't stop gravity. Blood is settling. 534 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: So you're going to have a presentation, say she's the 535 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: final blow that killed her. Maybe put her face down 536 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: on the floor. Will blood is going to settle to 537 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: the front of her body. Well, all of a sudden, 538 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: you've got this presentation to post morm vidity anteriorly, which 539 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: means front, and then you fold her over and you 540 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: put her into this suitcase. Now she's kind of laying 541 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: on her side. Well, it takes several hours for the 542 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: lavidity to actually set in, so you'll get multiple points 543 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: of settling of lividity on this body. And that gives 544 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: you an indication to somebody's manipulated to the body. And 545 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: again that goes to the picture you're trying to present 546 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: of what they did post mortem relative to their activities. 547 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: One of the essential part here is that there were 548 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: witnesses to them exiting the hotel. They've got bags and 549 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: of course they've got v bag that contains that contains 550 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 1: her body, the victim's body. But you know what, they 551 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: didn't take notice of any kind of blood on the 552 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: perpetrator's bodies. So what does that tell us? What It 553 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: tells us that they probably took at least some amount 554 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: of time to clean themselves up, because you know, let's 555 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: face it, and anything it's going to sell off an 556 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: alarm with people that are paying attention. If you've got 557 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: blood smeared up and down the side of your face, 558 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: on your neck, on your hands, and that sort of thing. 559 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: Bollies a tropical environment, so you're not going to be 560 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: wearing heavy clothes. It's not like you're gonna walk out 561 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: with a park on. You might be wearing shorts and 562 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: maybe a tank top or a T shirt. All of 563 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: your body surfaces are going to be exposed, so people 564 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: will see your skin. You have to take time to 565 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: clean up because, as we have already established, this is 566 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: just an absolutely horror show of crime scene. Joseph Scott 567 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body backs