Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.
Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Paul Michigan, troll decand most importantly, you are here.
Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know?
Speaker 3: Do you guys remember growing up in the era of
Speaker 3: talk shows like the Donna Hues, the Wimfreys, the Springers.
Speaker 4: I mean when I saw them, it was when I
Speaker 4: was staying home sick from school because that was all
Speaker 4: daytime stuff. So you know, it would be you'd be
Speaker 4: flipping around and you'd see people foreign chairs at each
Speaker 4: other and talking about taking a DNA test to prove
Speaker 4: parentage of of of children in question.
Speaker 3: Mmmmm yeah. And you remember these two, right, Matt, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I have. Phil Donahue always stood out to me, uh
Speaker 3: because because of his his mop of hair. I never
Speaker 3: I never figured out whether it was real.
Speaker 4: But more a little a little furry animal seating atop
Speaker 4: his home and never did a show about that, did he?
Speaker 3: Uh? Maury Povich was in particular that that show became
Speaker 3: associated with the idea of paternity tests, so much so
Speaker 3: that it became a cultural trope. Paul, if we could
Speaker 3: play a clip, you are not so we remember this stuff.
Speaker 3: And for a lot of people, it was the sort
Speaker 3: of bread and circus entertainment pre DNA. Uh. It's it was.
Speaker 3: It was a fun time. It was like any other
Speaker 3: proto reality television. There were performers, they are paid actors
Speaker 3: pretending to be real life people. For a lot of folks,
Speaker 3: it was a good cathartic time. They could vicariously experience
Speaker 3: messy drama. But Tonight's episodes about the darker side of
Speaker 3: this topic, a genuine series of conspiracies that at times
Speaker 3: spiral out of control. We have to ask, what on
Speaker 3: earth is fertility fraud? And I think we have to
Speaker 3: be honest, like when we get into this before we go,
Speaker 3: thank you for tuning in, fellow conspiracy realists. We are
Speaker 3: well aware this can be a very sensitive, challenging topic
Speaker 3: for a lot of people. It's inherently personal. You know,
Speaker 3: it's your own origin story. So I say we treat
Speaker 3: it with the care and respect it deserves, unlike you know,
Speaker 3: some of the doctors we're going to talk about. Does
Speaker 3: that sound good?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we certainly try to do that with everything
Speaker 4: we discussed, but this one is you're right, very sensitive
Speaker 4: because having children is something that is sort of a
Speaker 4: you know, a.
Speaker 3: Huge part of the human experience.
Speaker 4: If that's something that you want to do, and if
Speaker 4: you are not able to do that, it'll as you
Speaker 4: have to some potential fraudsters or people that can really
Speaker 4: manipulate you emotionally.
Speaker 3: Here are the facts if we want to understand this
Speaker 3: concept fertility fraud, which sounds like, you know, an evening
Speaker 3: news buzz term, because it is. We first have to
Speaker 3: understand the concept of fertility. Let's get that out of
Speaker 3: the way real quick. Fertility is being able to reproduce.
Speaker 3: And then there's this other thing which is part and
Speaker 3: parcel of our conspiracies this evening the concept of in
Speaker 3: vitro fertilization, or IVF as it's known on these streets. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In vitrue fertilization is one way a couple, no matter
Speaker 2: who they are, can attempt to impregnated if one of
Speaker 2: the people in that couple has a uterus. Right, And
Speaker 2: it's a really interesting process. And again it's only one.
Speaker 2: I think we should describe the other one first before
Speaker 2: we get to in vitro because there are several like
Speaker 2: types of this. I have personally gone through several. That's
Speaker 2: why it affects me personally, Guys, I've personally gone through
Speaker 2: with the old ex wife. There several rounds of something
Speaker 2: called i UI, which is intrauterine insemination. That is where
Speaker 2: semen is taken from a host a dug owner. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in this case it was me, and it is put
Speaker 2: into a catheter type thing like a little turkey baster
Speaker 2: and then put into the person that has a uterus
Speaker 2: through the cervix and injected in there to attempt to impregnate.
Speaker 2: Somebody went through that several times unsuccessfully. Hey, there's a
Speaker 2: little kid back there that that was made, which is
Speaker 2: kind of nice.
Speaker 3: That happened analog, in an analog fashion.
Speaker 2: Somehow, some miraculous way. Uh and uh yeah, but that
Speaker 2: that is one way. In vitro fertilization is quite a
Speaker 2: bit different though.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you're right, and I appreciate you pointing that out, Matt. Uh.
Speaker 3: The inter uterine and in vitro things that you're talking about,
Speaker 3: these procedures, they're all they all come under the umbrella
Speaker 3: of what we call assisted reproductive technology or ART. Right,
Speaker 3: So it's our second acronym. Other there are other forms
Speaker 3: of ART. Uh. There there are always other forms of ART, Right.
Speaker 3: There's I c S I intro cytoplasmic sperm injection, there's
Speaker 3: GIFT gammet uh intro Philippian transfer, there's ZIFT. It's it's
Speaker 3: a whole thing, and i've uh ART is UH. Let's
Speaker 3: think of it this way. It's a group term for
Speaker 3: a cavalcade of p and techniques which are all designed
Speaker 3: to create a viable embryo that will just state and
Speaker 3: become a life form. This also applies to non human animals, right.
Speaker 3: There have been this technology has been applied to certain
Speaker 3: endangered species. It's been applied to animals and conservatories or
Speaker 3: preservations or zoos. But most people, when you think of ART,
Speaker 3: you're thinking of IVF. About ninety nine percent of the
Speaker 3: assisted reproduction technology in the United States today is IVF.
Speaker 3: This is coming from a release from the CDC in
Speaker 3: conjunction with Department of Human and Health Services or Health
Speaker 3: and Human Services from March thirteenth, twenty twenty four, where
Speaker 3: you'll see that IVF, per their research, represents the vast
Speaker 3: majority of ART procedures.
Speaker 4: And I think we were honestly all a little bit
Speaker 4: of surprised to see that stat It just seems like
Speaker 4: you can't get much higher than ninety nine percent, can you.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's just weird to represent at least three
Speaker 2: versions of that one percent, if that makes sense. That's
Speaker 2: just weird in my personal experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And these things are not a silver bullet solution.
Speaker 3: To be absolutely clear, we know that this art is
Speaker 3: a relatively new concept in the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 3: You know. The first well IVF. The quick explanation is
Speaker 3: doctors will attempt to fertilize an egg with sperm outside
Speaker 3: of the uterus and then implant that egg into the
Speaker 3: uterus in hopes of a successful pregnancy. It does not
Speaker 3: have a one hundred percent success rate. And that's because
Speaker 3: the very first baby born from IVF is alive to
Speaker 3: Louise Brown nineteen seventy eight. She's still relatively young, her
Speaker 3: middle aged.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the next was born, or the next baby
Speaker 4: born of IVF came later that same year in India,
Speaker 4: and then before we knew it, this really was starting
Speaker 4: to become pretty widely adopted, at least for families of
Speaker 4: a certain social strata.
Speaker 2: Let's just say, yeah, it is an incredible procedure because
Speaker 2: it's almost like you set off that biological chain reaction
Speaker 2: right the moment you fertilize the egg in a laboratory
Speaker 2: setting in a peatrie dish basically, and that kind of
Speaker 2: thing it becomes us. I go, those cells start splitting,
Speaker 2: and then you've got to get that thing and implant
Speaker 2: it right within the uterus safely, and then for that
Speaker 2: to then go full term into a baby. That's incredible.
Speaker 2: That's an amazing technology.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 4: Is this it's probably a bit of a dated term
Speaker 4: and probably a bit derisive, but is this where the
Speaker 4: term tests two baby comes from?
Speaker 3: You're absolutely correct. The term test to baby, prominently featured
Speaker 3: in the amazing animated film Baby's Kids comes from comes
Speaker 3: from this. The rollout of this, which was quite quite
Speaker 3: accelerated because this was solving a problem that a lot
Speaker 3: of families struggled with, and a lot of individuals wanted
Speaker 3: to have children. It met a crucial need for people
Speaker 3: across the planet. Many of these people would prefer not
Speaker 3: to adopt. We'll do an episode on adoption in the
Speaker 3: near future as well. But they knew they would be
Speaker 3: good parents, oh of course.
Speaker 4: And you know, another option might be surrogate situation or
Speaker 4: you have someone carry your baby to term with the
Speaker 4: sperm of the partner. That's certainly an option, also expensive
Speaker 4: and a little fraud in its own rights. Sure, But man, adoption, Ben,
Speaker 4: That's something that I've had questions and thoughts about for
Speaker 4: a long time, just all of the politics of that
Speaker 4: and when other countries get involved, and there's so much
Speaker 4: to unpack, and that I very much look forward to that.
Speaker 3: Conversation politics and pitfalls.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's just get this out of the way too,
Speaker 2: you guys. Infertility is like one of the most soul
Speaker 2: crushing things you can deal with if you're if you
Speaker 2: actually want to have a child, do you feel like
Speaker 2: you would be okay parents or you're in the right
Speaker 2: place right or that thing for idiocracy at the very
Speaker 2: start of the film where it's like a couple. We
Speaker 2: talked about it multiple times on the show, but it's
Speaker 2: a couple that you know, has they they're thinking about
Speaker 2: everything they need, like do we have enough money. Are
Speaker 2: we in a good place? Like what's going on in
Speaker 2: the world right now? A try doctors or lawyers or
Speaker 2: like successful intelligent humans and they're like, well, I guess
Speaker 2: it's time to try. But then you know one or
Speaker 2: both of them is infertile and they can't have a child.
Speaker 2: It's just very common again personal experience here, and it's
Speaker 2: it's it is like one of the one of the
Speaker 2: things that will send you down a real dark place
Speaker 2: in your life.
Speaker 3: You said, it's such a good human experience.
Speaker 4: It is part of being alive is to be able
Speaker 4: to you know, carry on your your legacy. Not not
Speaker 4: a thing about it in terms of like I've got
Speaker 4: to carry out my legacy or whatever, or be immortal
Speaker 4: in some way, but it is just the you want
Speaker 4: that you're driven towards that, especially if you're someone who
Speaker 4: is capable of giving birth, that's like a superpower. And
Speaker 4: then to realize that you don't have that, you've been
Speaker 4: robbed of that, I can imagine, only imagine that it
Speaker 4: would be very exactly like you said, soul crushing.
Speaker 2: Again. It doesn't matter who you are, right or how
Speaker 2: you function or what parts you got. If you can't
Speaker 2: make another version of you genetically. It's that your biological
Speaker 2: imperative kind of gets muted or you know, turned off,
Speaker 2: or you're just not you don't your DNA n's at you,
Speaker 2: which is a weird thing to think about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, life is brutal and narcissistic from an evolutionary standpoint,
Speaker 3: it wants more of itself out there. I think both
Speaker 3: of you are making excellent points.
Speaker 4: I think the takeaway here though, is that it's not
Speaker 4: a narcissity desire to want to spread your DNA further.
Speaker 4: It's almost like there's a computer code within you that
Speaker 4: is programmed to need that and want that. It is
Speaker 4: like what you are designed to do. And when you
Speaker 4: can't do that, it's like you failed at that function
Speaker 4: or something.
Speaker 3: And then your body almost like you know, reacts or
Speaker 3: that has to reconcile that in some way. And obviously
Speaker 3: the point the mention of the inWORD of narcissism is
Speaker 3: not applying to anybody specific as an individual. It's the system.
Speaker 3: It is how life works. The virus right on the
Speaker 3: very edge of what humans consider living. Its main thing
Speaker 3: is to create more of itself. That is, that is
Speaker 3: the biological imperative right life is a light fighting against
Speaker 3: the darkness of entropy.
Speaker 4: It is funny, though I mean not maybe not funny
Speaker 4: when you do start to think about that biological imperative
Speaker 4: and how we as humans are kind of viruses and
Speaker 4: we self replicate and ultimately kind of smother everything around us,
Speaker 4: starting to turn into a dark, bummery direction.
Speaker 3: But you can look at it that way too, so
Speaker 3: it's not untrue. So infertility affects millions of people in
Speaker 3: the United States today, it affects billions of people in
Speaker 3: the world, and indeed we can see some troubling indications
Speaker 3: that infertility rates may rise depending on where you live
Speaker 3: in your neck of the global woods and what environmental
Speaker 3: factors you are exposed to. Big factors for infertility right
Speaker 3: now are going to be health conditions often caused by
Speaker 3: environmental variables. And then there's going to be you know,
Speaker 3: the age is always a question. But to the earlier point,
Speaker 3: and I have family members within these situations. There are
Speaker 3: couples who are maybe same sex individuals, or there are
Speaker 3: people without a partner and they could not otherwise conceive,
Speaker 3: but they would be amazing parents and they are shout out, shout,
Speaker 3: out to several of my family members there. I mean,
Speaker 3: the success of this is clear, the success of IVF
Speaker 3: in particular, in twenty twenty one, in the US alone,
Speaker 3: eighty six thousand, one hundred and forty six infants were
Speaker 3: conceived through the use of some sort of art assisted
Speaker 3: reproductive technology. That is two point three percent of all
Speaker 3: of the births in the entire country that year. That's
Speaker 3: a lot of people. And if you're listening, we're glad
Speaker 3: you're here. If you're listening and you're like, what three
Speaker 3: years old.
Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome to Earth and to the podcast.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Earth. We would have cleaned it up if
Speaker 3: we knew you were on the way, probably not make it. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: we could all do a little bits. It's not all
Speaker 3: on us. We do our best, we do our part.
Speaker 3: But no, this is really very very very true.
Speaker 4: The scientific breakthrough, you know, from the late seventies as
Speaker 4: continuing to help many many couples and individuals to do
Speaker 4: that thing that they so desperately want to be able
Speaker 4: to do, which is to spread life.
Speaker 3: And to the point about to the point about idiocrasy, Matt,
Speaker 3: I love that you're bringing that up, because people also
Speaker 3: use preservation services for their eggs the street freezing the eggs. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you can also save sperm or other reproductive tissue and say, hey,
Speaker 3: I really want to be a parent. I am not
Speaker 3: ready at this point, but they don't want to miss
Speaker 3: out on that opportunity. So this is a This is
Speaker 3: a huge industry. There's a lot of money inside of it.
Speaker 3: And right now there are ten states that use some
Speaker 3: form of art most often. The last one was a
Speaker 3: bit of a plot twist on my end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, California obviously, New York, Sure, Texas, maybe, Okay,
Speaker 4: New Jersey, chechell Massachusetts, Florida, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: Virginia, and Georgia. I mean, and I was surprised by
Speaker 3: that too.
Speaker 4: Is that because this is considered in some way like
Speaker 4: interfering with an act of God? Would there be a
Speaker 4: thinking behind this that maybe religious right leaning individuals and
Speaker 4: lawmaking might have a problem with this type of technology.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's a good question. It may simply
Speaker 3: be a feedback loop of clusters of expertise, right because
Speaker 3: this is a specialization in the medical field. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's impossible to overemphasize the life changing importance of these treatments.
Speaker 3: A lot of us listening along tonight, our fellow conspiracy
Speaker 3: realist may have undergone IVF or maybe alive as a
Speaker 3: direct result of these techniques, which is amazing. We have
Speaker 3: to give tremendous thanks to all the doctors and medical
Speaker 3: professionals who work to make this possible. I mean, imagine,
Speaker 3: imagine the enormity of trust that your patients are putting
Speaker 3: into you for this right be a part of the
Speaker 3: most important aspect of my life. If everything's above board,
Speaker 3: these doctors are making the world a better place, one
Speaker 3: family at a time. If everything's above board, what happens
Speaker 3: when that trust is misplaced? What exactly is the fertility
Speaker 3: fraud conspiracy? We're going to pause for a word from
Speaker 3: our sponsors, and we're going to dive in. Here's where
Speaker 3: it gets crazy. Fertility fraud. It's real. It is extremely
Speaker 3: gross and unfortunately, just like art, it is an umbrella
Speaker 3: term for some unclean things. I had heard of this
Speaker 3: as a concept.
Speaker 4: It makes sense given especially says a lot of these
Speaker 4: things by very nature don't work out, even if it's
Speaker 4: all done above board, Even if everything is done correctly
Speaker 4: and with the utmost care, and you know, scientific rigor,
Speaker 4: very frequently, these pregnancies do not become viable. So therein
Speaker 4: lies the perfect opportunity for a grift. Right, Oh, it
Speaker 4: didn't work out, well, let's see just it's sorry. Maybe
Speaker 4: next time, let's try again.
Speaker 3: Jesus.
Speaker 4: But what we're about to tell you a bit of
Speaker 4: a trigger warning here you are. This is like some
Speaker 4: very gnarly abusive stuff we're about to talk about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most commonly fertility fraud. When you're gonna hear it
Speaker 3: in popular culture or popular news, it describes how a
Speaker 3: fertility expert, a doctor with a specialization in this may
Speaker 3: lie to their patients. And they're overwhelmingly dude doctors. They
Speaker 3: lie to their patients and instead of giving the patient
Speaker 3: the sperm of their partner or the sperm you know,
Speaker 3: whatever the surrogacy situation may be, the doctor puts their
Speaker 3: own sperm into the patient. It is impossible to overstate
Speaker 3: how disturbing of a violation this is.
Speaker 4: I don't understand why to what end? Like, why why
Speaker 4: would you do that?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 3: That?
Speaker 4: Is it?
Speaker 3: Just a psycho psychopathy? That's theopathy. Typically typically it's going
Speaker 3: to be a deletarious narcissistic disorder. The uh, the idea like,
Speaker 3: that's why we that's why we introduce the inward at
Speaker 3: the top there. Uh, these guys are propagating their own
Speaker 3: genes and not taking responsibility for their.
Speaker 4: Because like, on the one hand, it reminded me of
Speaker 4: some of those fraudulent crematoriums that would you know, just
Speaker 4: give whatever ashes back to the to the families and
Speaker 4: like like like like to me, I was thinking, this
Speaker 4: is some kind of shortcut to save you from having
Speaker 4: to do actual work. But it doesn't seem like it's
Speaker 4: that at all. It's literally like a secret rape, you know,
Speaker 4: and impregnation for your own malicious and and like you said, ben,
Speaker 4: narcissistic reasons. I just couldn't wrap my head around that
Speaker 4: at first. But that's clearly what it is.
Speaker 2: Well, and there's there's levels to it too, because depending
Speaker 2: on the type of artificial insemination. Again, if you're just
Speaker 2: applying a you know, a batch of sperm cells to
Speaker 2: some eggs that are have been separated out from both
Speaker 2: bodies of whatever couple is, you know, attempting to become pregnant,
Speaker 2: that is a that is one thing. It's a whole
Speaker 2: other thing if you use the EUI technique where you're
Speaker 2: literally Turkey baseding your own own semen into a woman.
Speaker 2: That is very different, I think, which is also something
Speaker 2: that has occurred.
Speaker 3: Both horrific and egregious. With that one is just well,
Speaker 3: they're both true. And fertility fraud can also additionally describe
Speaker 3: cases wherein donor eggs are taken or even sold without
Speaker 3: the donor's consent. But this would be a surgical procedure
Speaker 3: of some kind minimally yeah, minimally invasive, so you're not
Speaker 3: gonna have scars and stitches, you know, It's not at
Speaker 3: the level of, for instance, a cesarean section or something
Speaker 3: like that. But there are other things that fall under
Speaker 3: the broad term fertility fraud, a lot of insurance grifts,
Speaker 3: a lot of unnecessary, expensive procedures because you can kind
Speaker 3: of milk people for money if you are a terrible
Speaker 3: doctor and they all leverage social engineering, how much do
Speaker 3: you trust your medical professional, and they explore the desire
Speaker 3: of so many people to become parents. Unfortunately, tragically, there
Speaker 3: aren't really words in English for how bad this is.
Speaker 3: There are multiple examples of doctors engaging in these these
Speaker 3: unclean things. In the Nation of Isadel in two thousand,
Speaker 3: there were these doctors who were harvesting extra eggs from
Speaker 3: patients seeking fertility assistance, and then they were selling those
Speaker 3: eggs without the patient's knowledge or consent, much less a
Speaker 3: slice of the profit.
Speaker 4: And by the way, I just did a little googling,
Speaker 4: and the procedure to remove eggs it's minimally minimally invasive.
Speaker 4: It's like a needle that goes up and then it
Speaker 4: identifies where the follicles are and then it sucks them
Speaker 4: out with like sort of like a hollow needle, so
Speaker 4: it doesn't require being cut at all.
Speaker 3: So I could see how.
Speaker 4: You know, you could put one over on somebody and
Speaker 4: grab a few extras and keep them on the side.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, as we said, minimally invasive, no scars.
Speaker 3: If you are the patient, you may not realize what
Speaker 3: has been done to you for some time, which makes
Speaker 3: even more dangerous. One of the most infamous recent examples
Speaker 3: of the doctors being monsters here comes to us from
Speaker 3: the Netherlands. A guy named doctor Jan Carbot may memory,
Speaker 3: May his memory be a curse. He's just the worst guy.
Speaker 3: From nineteen eighty all the way to two thousand and nine,
Speaker 3: he ran a clinic that was one of the biggest
Speaker 3: fertility clinics in the entire country of the Netherlands. It
Speaker 3: was also a sider rampant fertility fraud. Nobody knew about this.
Speaker 3: We are not native Dutch speakers, so help, let's crowdsource
Speaker 3: this Bjdorp, Bijdor. You could be a soft j perhaps
Speaker 3: be Door.
Speaker 4: I don't know, just to thought. Yeah, yeah, it's roster
Speaker 4: thrown into the crowdsourcing here. It's near Rotterdam. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: I think probably a soft jay then and Berendrecht, as
Speaker 4: you said, near Rotterdam. In this clinic semen from different
Speaker 4: donners was is it called another callback to the ASHES
Speaker 4: situation mixed together?
Speaker 3: Oh god.
Speaker 4: Women were lied to about whose semen their child had
Speaker 4: been derived from, and record keeping was absolutely chaotic. Dare
Speaker 4: we say no rhyme or reason at all to any
Speaker 4: of the record keeping? Probably by design.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say non existent, because he was he
Speaker 3: was an active predator, covering his tracks. We know now
Speaker 3: that he is the direct biological father of at least
Speaker 3: forty nine children proven from patients who visited his clinic
Speaker 3: there in Rotterdam, and he used his own sperm instead
Speaker 3: of of the sperm that you know these couples were giving, right,
Speaker 3: we want to conceive in some cases like we've been
Speaker 3: married for years. Please help us, doctor Carbot, And he
Speaker 3: says sure, and then and then fertilizes the egg with
Speaker 3: his own with his own emissions. And at this point,
Speaker 3: no one knows how many children this guy created as
Speaker 3: a result of his insane conspiracy. I don't use the
Speaker 3: word insane lightly. Everyone's certain though it's way more than
Speaker 3: forty nine. It's like a god complex kind of situation.
Speaker 2: Guys, really, let's really think about this. And hey, if
Speaker 2: you're listening with kids in the car, turn it off.
Speaker 2: Turn it off for a little bit. Skip forward thirty seconds. Ready,
Speaker 2: this person masturbated himself forty nine times at least and
Speaker 2: separate times in a room somewhere, and then took that
Speaker 2: sample and then and had to put it into a
Speaker 2: like specialized cup to protect it, and then took that
Speaker 2: sample and did this procedure very carefully and very you
Speaker 2: know this, this is it is so monstrous when you
Speaker 2: think about that number of times, and those were the
Speaker 2: successful times that we know of that he did it,
Speaker 2: which means he probably did that hundreds of times.
Speaker 3: At least he probably has about two hundred kids.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and this is one we're telling you one
Speaker 2: person that did this. There are over fifty other cases
Speaker 2: in the US of men who did the same thing,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna get to it. But this, this is
Speaker 2: one person that did it that many times. It's just like,
Speaker 2: it makes me want to do bad things.
Speaker 4: It seems like the same kind of compulsion that drives
Speaker 4: serial killers and like serial rapists, and it just seems
Speaker 4: very akin to that, and to be such a specific
Speaker 4: thing that you're just gonna do over an over again
Speaker 4: because you're chasing some kind of high from it or something.
Speaker 3: It's just oh man, So let's continue with the Carbot
Speaker 3: case because it is just like those US government numbers
Speaker 3: and infertility. This is a snapshot of, indeed a global pattern.
Speaker 3: Shout out to our friends at The Guardian. They have
Speaker 3: a great blow by blow investigation into this issue. If
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about the Carbot case in particular,
Speaker 3: do check out. Dutch fertility doctors secretly fathered at least
Speaker 3: forty nine children from twenty nineteen, which is over four
Speaker 3: years ago now when it comes out they got a
Speaker 3: lot of this information with the help of a fantastic
Speaker 3: nonprofit group called Defense for Children, a global organization fighting
Speaker 3: for children's rights. Carbot did this for decades again, nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty all the way to two thousand and nine. This
Speaker 3: didn't go public. It was kind of an open secret
Speaker 3: for a while, but it didn't go public until twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3: A Dutch court ruled that the results of Carbot's DNA tests,
Speaker 3: which he denied for the entirety of his life, should
Speaker 3: be made available to parents and children with questions. The
Speaker 3: case involved twenty two people who had for a long
Speaker 3: time been petitioning Dutch courts to have their own DNA
Speaker 3: samples compared to that of their parents' fertility doctor, and
Speaker 3: Carbot for the entirety of his life managed to dodge this,
Speaker 3: refused to cooperate with investigators.
Speaker 2: We're going to get into this too, guys. But one
Speaker 2: of the reasons that it's been difficult to charge these
Speaker 2: doctors is because the laws in various places don't cover
Speaker 2: this specific act as something that is even illegal.
Speaker 3: Right before two thousand and four, Dutch quorts had up
Speaker 3: until two thousand and four before they reversed the decision
Speaker 3: in the Netherlands. If you were a child born to
Speaker 3: donors of any sort, you had no legal right to
Speaker 3: learn the identity of your biological parent. So if you
Speaker 3: are a I said it wasn't going to curse on
Speaker 3: today's episode, but this is so nasty. Paul, beat me here.
Speaker 3: If you are a monster, this is a perfect crime.
Speaker 3: Right if you are one of these, one of these Carbots.
Speaker 2: Well until you know twenty three and me another DNA
Speaker 2: like commercially part of the story here.
Speaker 3: It is so for a sense of scale, about ten
Speaker 3: thousand children were conceived at Carbots clinic over the lifetime
Speaker 3: its lifetime. Yeah, and we want to shout out the
Speaker 3: journalist Camille ba Luke spent three years investigating the case.
Speaker 3: He has published a book based on his research, which
Speaker 3: has a lot of interviews with doctor Carbot himself. It's
Speaker 3: called All Louis's Children and it's fantastically written. It's a
Speaker 3: real rough read. You can also if you want to
Speaker 3: save your time on the book, you can check out
Speaker 3: on YouTube. Right now, you can check out an interview
Speaker 3: that Vice had with the journalist Beluke himself. What you'll
Speaker 3: see is disturbing. Doctor Carbot has no remorse whatsoever for
Speaker 3: his actions, which are clearly meditated. He is a he
Speaker 3: is a times nine thousand, this guy, and he had
Speaker 3: You might ask were there any consequences for him not
Speaker 3: in this.
Speaker 4: World, because you mentioned the law was at at the
Speaker 4: very least what you consider a loophole, and he was
Speaker 4: clearly very aware of that.
Speaker 3: And used it to his advantage, right, yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 3: just before the case goes to court, he dies. It's
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, he's eighty nine years old. He never faced
Speaker 3: a mortal court. He also had already mentioned open secrets
Speaker 3: in interviews with journalists with his non consensual children. Well,
Speaker 3: I guess every child is non consensually born. You know,
Speaker 3: it's fair, right, right, But you see what I'm saying
Speaker 3: that there would be people trying to track down their
Speaker 3: own providence, their own origin story, and they would find
Speaker 3: this guy at his home at the clinic, just walking
Speaker 3: around and they would say, hey, are you my father?
Speaker 3: And what he would do is how much of an
Speaker 3: open secret is? He would say, hold up your hands,
Speaker 3: and he would just compare hands with them because he
Speaker 3: would never take a DNA test. It's so creepy.
Speaker 4: I imagine in the journalist the journalist's piece that you
Speaker 4: mentioned some of these children are that story as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he has interviews with them and a couple
Speaker 3: are cided also in the Vice News summary the interview.
Speaker 3: And you know, maybe it's like a confirmation bias, but
Speaker 3: if you watch the if you watch the clips, you'll
Speaker 3: look at these folks and think are they related? Or
Speaker 3: am I racist? Do all Dutch people just look alike
Speaker 3: to me? But I think they look similar? And the
Speaker 3: DNA will later go to prove it. The worst part is,
Speaker 3: so this guy's never going to go in front of
Speaker 3: a mortal court. He is also only one example of
Speaker 3: a troubling trend, and we have a lot more to discuss.
Speaker 3: As you set up earlier, Matt so Astuteley, there are
Speaker 3: many many people who have been doing this grift and
Speaker 3: getting away with it for a long long time. Should
Speaker 3: we take a break for a word from our sponsors, Yep,
Speaker 3: we've returned. Even before the success and the economy of
Speaker 3: scale of IVF in nineteen seventy eight in England, there
Speaker 3: were people like Quincy Fortier or Fortier, a Las Vegas
Speaker 3: based fertility expert who during his forty year practice definitely
Speaker 3: created twenty six children without the consent of the women
Speaker 3: he was impregnating and just to drive home.
Speaker 4: These are all officially licensed physicians, right, They're not perpetrating
Speaker 4: fraud in.
Speaker 3: That aspect at least, right.
Speaker 4: This is like they're not running some fly by night,
Speaker 4: you know, pretending to be experts. That does happen, but
Speaker 4: in in these cases, these were all truly licensed doctors
Speaker 4: who had been through all the proper training.
Speaker 3: They just happened to be sick individuals. Yeah, and Quincy
Speaker 3: dies in two thousand and six. He's ninety four years old.
Speaker 3: People don't uncover the full extent of his crimes until
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, when a lady is celebrating her retirement with
Speaker 3: a home DNA test and learns learns the truth. And
Speaker 3: then there's someone like to the point about there's something
Speaker 3: I know. I always rail against this, and I only
Speaker 3: sound like a broken record because it is true. Technology
Speaker 3: always outpaces legislation, legislation reacts to technology, and as a
Speaker 3: result is always playing the game of catchup. Let's go
Speaker 3: to a guy named Cecil Jacobsen nineteen eighties, Virginia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, according to this guy, there's a bit of a
Speaker 2: problem where he worked. When someone came in a patient
Speaker 2: came in, wanted to get pregnant, wanted to have help
Speaker 2: getting inciminated. They would only have access to sperm that
Speaker 2: was frozen, and well that's not going to work. So
Speaker 2: this doctor decided, well, you would use his own. This
Speaker 2: is in the nineteen eighties. His practice ran from where
Speaker 2: are we nineteen seventy six until nineteen eighty eight, and
Speaker 2: he fathered as many as seventy five kids.
Speaker 3: Right yeah, and he could not and he was discovered
Speaker 3: he could not be prosecuted because he had operated this
Speaker 3: obscenity in Virginia entirely, and at the time there was
Speaker 3: no law in the Commonwealth of Virginia to prohibit this crime.
Speaker 3: Nobody thought anybody would be conceivably this messed up, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. They had not conceived of the
Speaker 3: horror here. And we can go on and on. You know,
Speaker 3: there's Norman Barroway in Ottawa and twenty twenty one. We
Speaker 3: could go on again. There's Donald Klein from seventy four
Speaker 3: to eighty seven, and we could go on like this.
Speaker 2: Let's name some more doctor Merle Berger in Sharon, Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: doctor Christopher Herndon, and doctor David Claypool in Washington. Doctor
Speaker 2: Paul Brennan Jones in Colorado, doctor John Boyd Coates, the
Speaker 2: third in Vermont, doctor Morris Mortman, and doctor as you said,
Speaker 2: Kleine in.
Speaker 3: Doctor Donald Clin. Yeah out. And then there there are
Speaker 3: further consequences like those post in Connecticut. Burton Caldwell may
Speaker 3: have well made, some made some folks unknowingly accidentally incestuous.
Speaker 3: It is important to know where you come from, right,
Speaker 3: And it is important like this is just ah, this
Speaker 3: bothers me so much. We talk about so many evil things,
Speaker 3: but this one gets to me in particular because part
Speaker 3: of it is it is at this point virtually impossible
Speaker 3: to know just how many doctors successfully conducted these types
Speaker 3: of conspiracies. Right, Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 4: And you know one I thought was worth mentioning because
Speaker 4: it also involves that weird loophole in Dutch law.
Speaker 3: And I believe we discussed this a while back on.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It was a dutch Man who is suspected of fathering
Speaker 4: more than five hundred children through excessive sperm donations. And
Speaker 4: I haven't seen an update yet as to what he's
Speaker 4: being held liable for, but he was facing a fine
Speaker 4: of more than one hundred thousand euros, but only if
Speaker 4: he tries to donate again. He's been banned from donated
Speaker 4: fertility clinics in the Netherlands, had been actually since twenty
Speaker 4: seventeen after it murdered that he had fathered more than
Speaker 4: one hundred children. But instead of stopping, he just took
Speaker 4: it international, right, and he was actually tried.
Speaker 3: In the Hague, which is like where they try war
Speaker 3: criminals and stuff.
Speaker 4: It's kind of wild, but in the end, Yeah, looking
Speaker 4: like more than five hundred children, between five hundred and
Speaker 4: six hundred children. Since he began doing anything sperm in
Speaker 4: two two thousand and seven, all we know is his
Speaker 4: name was Jonathan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as of twenty twenty three, he was forty
Speaker 3: one years old. I remember bringing that to our Strange
Speaker 3: News program, and one thing that stood out to me
Speaker 3: about this was again the legislative lag let's call it
Speaker 3: that because if you're traveling internationally, I think he spent
Speaker 3: some time in Australia as well, it's difficult to track
Speaker 3: these activities. And he started donating sperm in two thousand
Speaker 3: and seven. We have a short form social media video
Speaker 3: about it, which is sort of whistling in the graveyard
Speaker 3: of these evil, evil things, And I just want to say,
Speaker 3: like I I appreciate you guys so much for allowing
Speaker 3: us to bring that story to light back in our
Speaker 3: Strange News and for doing the sketch which does.
Speaker 2: Hold up that was your strange news story, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just thank you for laying it on. Get
Speaker 3: on the air man.
Speaker 4: Actually, in the BBC article that I just found, it
Speaker 4: referenced a lot of these cases that we're talking about
Speaker 4: as well, because it is sort of like, well, this
Speaker 4: guy wasn't a doctor. It does show the flaws in
Speaker 4: Dutch law that led to this being possible.
Speaker 3: You're talking about Emily McGarvey, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is this is a real thing, and that's I love
Speaker 3: that you're bringing this up because that's adjacent to as
Speaker 3: he said, that's adjacent to this problem. The legislation is
Speaker 3: the issue, right There's we were talking a little bit
Speaker 3: off air before we recorded. I have been against the
Speaker 3: dangers of the commercialization of genetic testing for a long time.
Speaker 3: It's going to be very challenging for human society and
Speaker 3: then year future and in the long term it's a
Speaker 3: whole other bag of badgers. But in this case, no
Speaker 3: matter what we think about the economy of scale, the
Speaker 3: monetization of DNA. This technology is the only reason we
Speaker 3: know about a lot of these crimes. Right, there is
Speaker 3: a good side. It is good that this stuff exists.
Speaker 3: But do you think that laws will be written to
Speaker 3: combat this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's Hr. Thirty seven to ten, the Fighting Fertility
Speaker 2: Fraud Act of twenty twenty three that's currently sitting with
Speaker 2: the House Committee on the Judiciary at the House of Representatives.
Speaker 2: It's just been sitting there since twenty twenty three in May.
Speaker 2: I think it could potentially be a thing in the future,
Speaker 2: and there are other states like Texas that have passed
Speaker 2: laws that specifically characterize or classify fertility fraud as like
Speaker 2: a thing that can be prosecuted where you can actually
Speaker 2: go to jail four years for perpetrating these kinds of acts.
Speaker 2: I think ten years you could go one crime, so
Speaker 2: like one count a fertility fraud would be ten years
Speaker 2: in prison, which is awesome. Let's do that. It's just
Speaker 2: kind of hanging out now though, in limbo. But thankfully
Speaker 2: there are other states that are trying to get things
Speaker 2: on the books like this, so hopefully that's in the
Speaker 2: future what we will see.
Speaker 3: Agreed, agreed, and that's what that's what we can do.
Speaker 3: We can hope we can raise awareness. We also have
Speaker 3: to say that, you know, this rank conspiratorial pattern leaves
Speaker 3: us with some serious things to consider as a civilization.
Speaker 3: It goes beyond national borders. The answer it's, I would argue,
Speaker 3: part procedural, part philosophical. There is some stuff that unscrupulous
Speaker 3: doctors don't want you to know, and they are getting
Speaker 3: away with it. They have been getting away with it.
Speaker 3: I don't know, man. Just like on a positive note,
Speaker 3: you know this is hard for a lot of us
Speaker 3: to hear this evening, but family is family. We need
Speaker 3: to give a heartfelt thank you to all the parents
Speaker 3: out there who are raising their children well. Whether you
Speaker 3: are an adoptive parent, a biological parent, a step parent,
Speaker 3: it matters. Not Every child deserves a parent, deserves a family,
Speaker 3: and family can't be defined by biology alone. Let me
Speaker 3: get off this soapbox. This one got to me. Sorry,
Speaker 3: nice dude.
Speaker 4: I think you have to all this for various reasons,
Speaker 4: just human reasons. But also Matt, I appreciate you sharing
Speaker 4: your own personal story and you know connection to this topic.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, man, right on it. Sucks. It really sucks,
Speaker 2: really really sucks. Well, Hey, if you want to learn
Speaker 2: more about this stuff, and for some reason you have
Speaker 2: a morbid curiosity, maybe you can check out a couple
Speaker 2: of documentaries that exist on the internet right now. If
Speaker 2: you have Netflix, you can check out that one's Our Father,
Speaker 2: that's what is called Our Father. It's about doctor Donald
Speaker 2: Klein that we mentioned. And on HBO slash Max whatever
Speaker 2: that thing is now, I think it's called Max. You
Speaker 2: can watch Baby God. That's about doctor Quincy Fortier.
Speaker 3: F O R T I E R and God Complex, right,
Speaker 3: I mean the name. Yeah. You can also again, if
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about the doctor from the
Speaker 3: Netherlands we spoke about specifically, do check out the book
Speaker 3: All Louis Children. We can't thank you enough, folks for
Speaker 3: tuning in. We want to hear your thoughts. Should there
Speaker 3: be more legislation prohibiting things like this? Right? Imagine committing
Speaker 3: a crime of such a heinous nature and the law
Speaker 3: is not able to prosecute you because they have never
Speaker 3: articulated a law against it. What do you think is
Speaker 3: the solution? What are your personal experiences? We would love
Speaker 3: to hear from you. We try to be easy to
Speaker 3: find online. That's right.
Speaker 4: You can find us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
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