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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul Michigan, troll decand most importantly, you are here.

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Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know?

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Speaker 3: Do you guys remember growing up in the era of

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Speaker 3: talk shows like the Donna Hues, the Wimfreys, the Springers.

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Speaker 4: I mean when I saw them, it was when I

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Speaker 4: was staying home sick from school because that was all

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Speaker 4: daytime stuff. So you know, it would be you'd be

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Speaker 4: flipping around and you'd see people foreign chairs at each

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Speaker 4: other and talking about taking a DNA test to prove

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Speaker 4: parentage of of of children in question.

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Speaker 3: Mmmmm yeah. And you remember these two, right, Matt, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I have. Phil Donahue always stood out to me, uh

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Speaker 3: because because of his his mop of hair. I never

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Speaker 3: I never figured out whether it was real.

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Speaker 4: But more a little a little furry animal seating atop

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Speaker 4: his home and never did a show about that, did he?

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Speaker 3: Uh? Maury Povich was in particular that that show became

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Speaker 3: associated with the idea of paternity tests, so much so

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Speaker 3: that it became a cultural trope. Paul, if we could

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Speaker 3: play a clip, you are not so we remember this stuff.

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Speaker 3: And for a lot of people, it was the sort

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Speaker 3: of bread and circus entertainment pre DNA. Uh. It's it was.

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Speaker 3: It was a fun time. It was like any other

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Speaker 3: proto reality television. There were performers, they are paid actors

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Speaker 3: pretending to be real life people. For a lot of folks,

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Speaker 3: it was a good cathartic time. They could vicariously experience

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Speaker 3: messy drama. But Tonight's episodes about the darker side of

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Speaker 3: this topic, a genuine series of conspiracies that at times

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Speaker 3: spiral out of control. We have to ask, what on

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Speaker 3: earth is fertility fraud? And I think we have to

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Speaker 3: be honest, like when we get into this before we go,

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Speaker 3: thank you for tuning in, fellow conspiracy realists. We are

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Speaker 3: well aware this can be a very sensitive, challenging topic

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Speaker 3: for a lot of people. It's inherently personal. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's your own origin story. So I say we treat

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Speaker 3: it with the care and respect it deserves, unlike you know,

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Speaker 3: some of the doctors we're going to talk about. Does

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Speaker 3: that sound good?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we certainly try to do that with everything

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Speaker 4: we discussed, but this one is you're right, very sensitive

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Speaker 4: because having children is something that is sort of a

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Speaker 4: you know, a.

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Speaker 3: Huge part of the human experience.

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Speaker 4: If that's something that you want to do, and if

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Speaker 4: you are not able to do that, it'll as you

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Speaker 4: have to some potential fraudsters or people that can really

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Speaker 4: manipulate you emotionally.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts if we want to understand this

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Speaker 3: concept fertility fraud, which sounds like, you know, an evening

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Speaker 3: news buzz term, because it is. We first have to

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Speaker 3: understand the concept of fertility. Let's get that out of

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Speaker 3: the way real quick. Fertility is being able to reproduce.

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Speaker 3: And then there's this other thing which is part and

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Speaker 3: parcel of our conspiracies this evening the concept of in

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Speaker 3: vitro fertilization, or IVF as it's known on these streets. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In vitrue fertilization is one way a couple, no matter

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Speaker 2: who they are, can attempt to impregnated if one of

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Speaker 2: the people in that couple has a uterus. Right, And

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Speaker 2: it's a really interesting process. And again it's only one.

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Speaker 2: I think we should describe the other one first before

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Speaker 2: we get to in vitro because there are several like

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Speaker 2: types of this. I have personally gone through several. That's

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Speaker 2: why it affects me personally, Guys, I've personally gone through

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Speaker 2: with the old ex wife. There several rounds of something

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Speaker 2: called i UI, which is intrauterine insemination. That is where

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Speaker 2: semen is taken from a host a dug owner. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: in this case it was me, and it is put

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Speaker 2: into a catheter type thing like a little turkey baster

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Speaker 2: and then put into the person that has a uterus

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Speaker 2: through the cervix and injected in there to attempt to impregnate.

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Speaker 2: Somebody went through that several times unsuccessfully. Hey, there's a

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Speaker 2: little kid back there that that was made, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of nice.

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Speaker 3: That happened analog, in an analog fashion.

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Speaker 2: Somehow, some miraculous way. Uh and uh yeah, but that

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Speaker 2: that is one way. In vitro fertilization is quite a

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Speaker 2: bit different though.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you're right, and I appreciate you pointing that out, Matt. Uh.

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Speaker 3: The inter uterine and in vitro things that you're talking about,

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Speaker 3: these procedures, they're all they all come under the umbrella

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Speaker 3: of what we call assisted reproductive technology or ART. Right,

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Speaker 3: So it's our second acronym. Other there are other forms

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Speaker 3: of ART. Uh. There there are always other forms of ART, Right.

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Speaker 3: There's I c S I intro cytoplasmic sperm injection, there's

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Speaker 3: GIFT gammet uh intro Philippian transfer, there's ZIFT. It's it's

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Speaker 3: a whole thing, and i've uh ART is UH. Let's

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Speaker 3: think of it this way. It's a group term for

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Speaker 3: a cavalcade of p and techniques which are all designed

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Speaker 3: to create a viable embryo that will just state and

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Speaker 3: become a life form. This also applies to non human animals, right.

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Speaker 3: There have been this technology has been applied to certain

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Speaker 3: endangered species. It's been applied to animals and conservatories or

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Speaker 3: preservations or zoos. But most people, when you think of ART,

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Speaker 3: you're thinking of IVF. About ninety nine percent of the

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Speaker 3: assisted reproduction technology in the United States today is IVF.

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Speaker 3: This is coming from a release from the CDC in

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Speaker 3: conjunction with Department of Human and Health Services or Health

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Speaker 3: and Human Services from March thirteenth, twenty twenty four, where

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Speaker 3: you'll see that IVF, per their research, represents the vast

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Speaker 3: majority of ART procedures.

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Speaker 4: And I think we were honestly all a little bit

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Speaker 4: of surprised to see that stat It just seems like

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Speaker 4: you can't get much higher than ninety nine percent, can you.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's just weird to represent at least three

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Speaker 2: versions of that one percent, if that makes sense. That's

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Speaker 2: just weird in my personal experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And these things are not a silver bullet solution.

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Speaker 3: To be absolutely clear, we know that this art is

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Speaker 3: a relatively new concept in the grand scheme of things.

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Speaker 3: You know. The first well IVF. The quick explanation is

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Speaker 3: doctors will attempt to fertilize an egg with sperm outside

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Speaker 3: of the uterus and then implant that egg into the

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Speaker 3: uterus in hopes of a successful pregnancy. It does not

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Speaker 3: have a one hundred percent success rate. And that's because

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Speaker 3: the very first baby born from IVF is alive to

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Speaker 3: Louise Brown nineteen seventy eight. She's still relatively young, her

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Speaker 3: middle aged.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the next was born, or the next baby

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Speaker 4: born of IVF came later that same year in India,

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Speaker 4: and then before we knew it, this really was starting

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Speaker 4: to become pretty widely adopted, at least for families of

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Speaker 4: a certain social strata.

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Speaker 2: Let's just say, yeah, it is an incredible procedure because

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Speaker 2: it's almost like you set off that biological chain reaction

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Speaker 2: right the moment you fertilize the egg in a laboratory

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Speaker 2: setting in a peatrie dish basically, and that kind of

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Speaker 2: thing it becomes us. I go, those cells start splitting,

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Speaker 2: and then you've got to get that thing and implant

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Speaker 2: it right within the uterus safely, and then for that

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Speaker 2: to then go full term into a baby. That's incredible.

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Speaker 2: That's an amazing technology.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 4: Is this it's probably a bit of a dated term

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Speaker 4: and probably a bit derisive, but is this where the

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Speaker 4: term tests two baby comes from?

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Speaker 3: You're absolutely correct. The term test to baby, prominently featured

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Speaker 3: in the amazing animated film Baby's Kids comes from comes

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Speaker 3: from this. The rollout of this, which was quite quite

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Speaker 3: accelerated because this was solving a problem that a lot

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Speaker 3: of families struggled with, and a lot of individuals wanted

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Speaker 3: to have children. It met a crucial need for people

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Speaker 3: across the planet. Many of these people would prefer not

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Speaker 3: to adopt. We'll do an episode on adoption in the

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Speaker 3: near future as well. But they knew they would be

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Speaker 3: good parents, oh of course.

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Speaker 4: And you know, another option might be surrogate situation or

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Speaker 4: you have someone carry your baby to term with the

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Speaker 4: sperm of the partner. That's certainly an option, also expensive

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Speaker 4: and a little fraud in its own rights. Sure, But man, adoption, Ben,

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Speaker 4: That's something that I've had questions and thoughts about for

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Speaker 4: a long time, just all of the politics of that

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Speaker 4: and when other countries get involved, and there's so much

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Speaker 4: to unpack, and that I very much look forward to that.

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Speaker 3: Conversation politics and pitfalls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's just get this out of the way too,

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Speaker 2: you guys. Infertility is like one of the most soul

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Speaker 2: crushing things you can deal with if you're if you

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Speaker 2: actually want to have a child, do you feel like

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Speaker 2: you would be okay parents or you're in the right

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Speaker 2: place right or that thing for idiocracy at the very

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Speaker 2: start of the film where it's like a couple. We

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Speaker 2: talked about it multiple times on the show, but it's

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Speaker 2: a couple that you know, has they they're thinking about

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Speaker 2: everything they need, like do we have enough money. Are

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Speaker 2: we in a good place? Like what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the world right now? A try doctors or lawyers or

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Speaker 2: like successful intelligent humans and they're like, well, I guess

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Speaker 2: it's time to try. But then you know one or

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Speaker 2: both of them is infertile and they can't have a child.

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Speaker 2: It's just very common again personal experience here, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's it is like one of the one of the

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Speaker 2: things that will send you down a real dark place

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Speaker 2: in your life.

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Speaker 3: You said, it's such a good human experience.

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Speaker 4: It is part of being alive is to be able

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Speaker 4: to you know, carry on your your legacy. Not not

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Speaker 4: a thing about it in terms of like I've got

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Speaker 4: to carry out my legacy or whatever, or be immortal

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Speaker 4: in some way, but it is just the you want

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Speaker 4: that you're driven towards that, especially if you're someone who

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Speaker 4: is capable of giving birth, that's like a superpower. And

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Speaker 4: then to realize that you don't have that, you've been

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Speaker 4: robbed of that, I can imagine, only imagine that it

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Speaker 4: would be very exactly like you said, soul crushing.

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Speaker 2: Again. It doesn't matter who you are, right or how

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Speaker 2: you function or what parts you got. If you can't

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Speaker 2: make another version of you genetically. It's that your biological

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Speaker 2: imperative kind of gets muted or you know, turned off,

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Speaker 2: or you're just not you don't your DNA n's at you,

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Speaker 2: which is a weird thing to think about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, life is brutal and narcissistic from an evolutionary standpoint,

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Speaker 3: it wants more of itself out there. I think both

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Speaker 3: of you are making excellent points.

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Speaker 4: I think the takeaway here though, is that it's not

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Speaker 4: a narcissity desire to want to spread your DNA further.

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Speaker 4: It's almost like there's a computer code within you that

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Speaker 4: is programmed to need that and want that. It is

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Speaker 4: like what you are designed to do. And when you

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Speaker 4: can't do that, it's like you failed at that function

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Speaker 4: or something.

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Speaker 3: And then your body almost like you know, reacts or

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Speaker 3: that has to reconcile that in some way. And obviously

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Speaker 3: the point the mention of the inWORD of narcissism is

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Speaker 3: not applying to anybody specific as an individual. It's the system.

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Speaker 3: It is how life works. The virus right on the

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Speaker 3: very edge of what humans consider living. Its main thing

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Speaker 3: is to create more of itself. That is, that is

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Speaker 3: the biological imperative right life is a light fighting against

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Speaker 3: the darkness of entropy.

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Speaker 4: It is funny, though I mean not maybe not funny

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Speaker 4: when you do start to think about that biological imperative

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Speaker 4: and how we as humans are kind of viruses and

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Speaker 4: we self replicate and ultimately kind of smother everything around us,

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Speaker 4: starting to turn into a dark, bummery direction.

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Speaker 3: But you can look at it that way too, so

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Speaker 3: it's not untrue. So infertility affects millions of people in

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Speaker 3: the United States today, it affects billions of people in

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Speaker 3: the world, and indeed we can see some troubling indications

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Speaker 3: that infertility rates may rise depending on where you live

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Speaker 3: in your neck of the global woods and what environmental

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Speaker 3: factors you are exposed to. Big factors for infertility right

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Speaker 3: now are going to be health conditions often caused by

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Speaker 3: environmental variables. And then there's going to be you know,

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Speaker 3: the age is always a question. But to the earlier point,

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Speaker 3: and I have family members within these situations. There are

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Speaker 3: couples who are maybe same sex individuals, or there are

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Speaker 3: people without a partner and they could not otherwise conceive,

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Speaker 3: but they would be amazing parents and they are shout out, shout,

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Speaker 3: out to several of my family members there. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the success of this is clear, the success of IVF

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Speaker 3: in particular, in twenty twenty one, in the US alone,

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Speaker 3: eighty six thousand, one hundred and forty six infants were

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Speaker 3: conceived through the use of some sort of art assisted

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Speaker 3: reproductive technology. That is two point three percent of all

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Speaker 3: of the births in the entire country that year. That's

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Speaker 3: a lot of people. And if you're listening, we're glad

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Speaker 3: you're here. If you're listening and you're like, what three

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Speaker 3: years old.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome to Earth and to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Earth. We would have cleaned it up if

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Speaker 3: we knew you were on the way, probably not make it. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 3: we could all do a little bits. It's not all

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Speaker 3: on us. We do our best, we do our part.

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Speaker 3: But no, this is really very very very true.

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Speaker 4: The scientific breakthrough, you know, from the late seventies as

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Speaker 4: continuing to help many many couples and individuals to do

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Speaker 4: that thing that they so desperately want to be able

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Speaker 4: to do, which is to spread life.

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Speaker 3: And to the point about to the point about idiocrasy, Matt,

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Speaker 3: I love that you're bringing that up, because people also

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Speaker 3: use preservation services for their eggs the street freezing the eggs. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can also save sperm or other reproductive tissue and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I really want to be a parent. I am not

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Speaker 3: ready at this point, but they don't want to miss

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Speaker 3: out on that opportunity. So this is a This is

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Speaker 3: a huge industry. There's a lot of money inside of it.

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Speaker 3: And right now there are ten states that use some

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Speaker 3: form of art most often. The last one was a

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Speaker 3: bit of a plot twist on my end.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, California obviously, New York, Sure, Texas, maybe, Okay,

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Speaker 4: New Jersey, chechell Massachusetts, Florida, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: Virginia, and Georgia. I mean, and I was surprised by

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Speaker 3: that too.

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Speaker 4: Is that because this is considered in some way like

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Speaker 4: interfering with an act of God? Would there be a

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Speaker 4: thinking behind this that maybe religious right leaning individuals and

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Speaker 4: lawmaking might have a problem with this type of technology.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, it's a good question. It may simply

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Speaker 3: be a feedback loop of clusters of expertise, right because

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Speaker 3: this is a specialization in the medical field. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's impossible to overemphasize the life changing importance of these treatments.

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Speaker 3: A lot of us listening along tonight, our fellow conspiracy

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Speaker 3: realist may have undergone IVF or maybe alive as a

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Speaker 3: direct result of these techniques, which is amazing. We have

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Speaker 3: to give tremendous thanks to all the doctors and medical

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Speaker 3: professionals who work to make this possible. I mean, imagine,

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Speaker 3: imagine the enormity of trust that your patients are putting

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Speaker 3: into you for this right be a part of the

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Speaker 3: most important aspect of my life. If everything's above board,

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Speaker 3: these doctors are making the world a better place, one

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Speaker 3: family at a time. If everything's above board, what happens

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Speaker 3: when that trust is misplaced? What exactly is the fertility

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Speaker 3: fraud conspiracy? We're going to pause for a word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsors, and we're going to dive in. Here's where

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Speaker 3: it gets crazy. Fertility fraud. It's real. It is extremely

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Speaker 3: gross and unfortunately, just like art, it is an umbrella

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Speaker 3: term for some unclean things. I had heard of this

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Speaker 3: as a concept.

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Speaker 4: It makes sense given especially says a lot of these

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Speaker 4: things by very nature don't work out, even if it's

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Speaker 4: all done above board, Even if everything is done correctly

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Speaker 4: and with the utmost care, and you know, scientific rigor,

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Speaker 4: very frequently, these pregnancies do not become viable. So therein

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Speaker 4: lies the perfect opportunity for a grift. Right, Oh, it

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Speaker 4: didn't work out, well, let's see just it's sorry. Maybe

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Speaker 4: next time, let's try again.

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Speaker 3: Jesus.

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Speaker 4: But what we're about to tell you a bit of

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Speaker 4: a trigger warning here you are. This is like some

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Speaker 4: very gnarly abusive stuff we're about to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, most commonly fertility fraud. When you're gonna hear it

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Speaker 3: in popular culture or popular news, it describes how a

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Speaker 3: fertility expert, a doctor with a specialization in this may

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Speaker 3: lie to their patients. And they're overwhelmingly dude doctors. They

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Speaker 3: lie to their patients and instead of giving the patient

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Speaker 3: the sperm of their partner or the sperm you know,

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Speaker 3: whatever the surrogacy situation may be, the doctor puts their

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Speaker 3: own sperm into the patient. It is impossible to overstate

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Speaker 3: how disturbing of a violation this is.

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Speaker 4: I don't understand why to what end? Like, why why

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Speaker 4: would you do that?

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Speaker 1: Is it?

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Speaker 3: That?

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Speaker 4: Is it?

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Speaker 3: Just a psycho psychopathy? That's theopathy. Typically typically it's going

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Speaker 3: to be a deletarious narcissistic disorder. The uh, the idea like,

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Speaker 3: that's why we that's why we introduce the inward at

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Speaker 3: the top there. Uh, these guys are propagating their own

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Speaker 3: genes and not taking responsibility for their.

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Speaker 4: Because like, on the one hand, it reminded me of

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Speaker 4: some of those fraudulent crematoriums that would you know, just

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Speaker 4: give whatever ashes back to the to the families and

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Speaker 4: like like like like to me, I was thinking, this

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Speaker 4: is some kind of shortcut to save you from having

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Speaker 4: to do actual work. But it doesn't seem like it's

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Speaker 4: that at all. It's literally like a secret rape, you know,

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Speaker 4: and impregnation for your own malicious and and like you said, ben,

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Speaker 4: narcissistic reasons. I just couldn't wrap my head around that

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Speaker 4: at first. But that's clearly what it is.

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Speaker 2: Well, and there's there's levels to it too, because depending

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Speaker 2: on the type of artificial insemination. Again, if you're just

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Speaker 2: applying a you know, a batch of sperm cells to

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Speaker 2: some eggs that are have been separated out from both

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Speaker 2: bodies of whatever couple is, you know, attempting to become pregnant,

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Speaker 2: that is a that is one thing. It's a whole

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Speaker 2: other thing if you use the EUI technique where you're

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Speaker 2: literally Turkey baseding your own own semen into a woman.

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Speaker 2: That is very different, I think, which is also something

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Speaker 2: that has occurred.

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Speaker 3: Both horrific and egregious. With that one is just well,

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Speaker 3: they're both true. And fertility fraud can also additionally describe

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Speaker 3: cases wherein donor eggs are taken or even sold without

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Speaker 3: the donor's consent. But this would be a surgical procedure

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Speaker 3: of some kind minimally yeah, minimally invasive, so you're not

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Speaker 3: gonna have scars and stitches, you know, It's not at

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Speaker 3: the level of, for instance, a cesarean section or something

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Speaker 3: like that. But there are other things that fall under

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Speaker 3: the broad term fertility fraud, a lot of insurance grifts,

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Speaker 3: a lot of unnecessary, expensive procedures because you can kind

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Speaker 3: of milk people for money if you are a terrible

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Speaker 3: doctor and they all leverage social engineering, how much do

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Speaker 3: you trust your medical professional, and they explore the desire

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Speaker 3: of so many people to become parents. Unfortunately, tragically, there

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Speaker 3: aren't really words in English for how bad this is.

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Speaker 3: There are multiple examples of doctors engaging in these these

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Speaker 3: unclean things. In the Nation of Isadel in two thousand,

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Speaker 3: there were these doctors who were harvesting extra eggs from

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Speaker 3: patients seeking fertility assistance, and then they were selling those

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Speaker 3: eggs without the patient's knowledge or consent, much less a

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Speaker 3: slice of the profit.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, I just did a little googling,

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Speaker 4: and the procedure to remove eggs it's minimally minimally invasive.

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Speaker 4: It's like a needle that goes up and then it

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Speaker 4: identifies where the follicles are and then it sucks them

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Speaker 4: out with like sort of like a hollow needle, so

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Speaker 4: it doesn't require being cut at all.

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Speaker 3: So I could see how.

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Speaker 4: You know, you could put one over on somebody and

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Speaker 4: grab a few extras and keep them on the side.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, as we said, minimally invasive, no scars.

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Speaker 3: If you are the patient, you may not realize what

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Speaker 3: has been done to you for some time, which makes

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Speaker 3: even more dangerous. One of the most infamous recent examples

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Speaker 3: of the doctors being monsters here comes to us from

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Speaker 3: the Netherlands. A guy named doctor Jan Carbot may memory,

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Speaker 3: May his memory be a curse. He's just the worst guy.

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Speaker 3: From nineteen eighty all the way to two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 3: he ran a clinic that was one of the biggest

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Speaker 3: fertility clinics in the entire country of the Netherlands. It

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Speaker 3: was also a sider rampant fertility fraud. Nobody knew about this.

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Speaker 3: We are not native Dutch speakers, so help, let's crowdsource

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Speaker 3: this Bjdorp, Bijdor. You could be a soft j perhaps

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Speaker 3: be Door.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, just to thought. Yeah, yeah, it's roster

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Speaker 4: thrown into the crowdsourcing here. It's near Rotterdam. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think probably a soft jay then and Berendrecht, as

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Speaker 4: you said, near Rotterdam. In this clinic semen from different

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Speaker 4: donners was is it called another callback to the ASHES

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Speaker 4: situation mixed together?

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Speaker 3: Oh god.

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Speaker 4: Women were lied to about whose semen their child had

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Speaker 4: been derived from, and record keeping was absolutely chaotic. Dare

401
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Speaker 4: we say no rhyme or reason at all to any

402
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Speaker 4: of the record keeping? Probably by design.

403
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say non existent, because he was he

404
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Speaker 3: was an active predator, covering his tracks. We know now

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Speaker 3: that he is the direct biological father of at least

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Speaker 3: forty nine children proven from patients who visited his clinic

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Speaker 3: there in Rotterdam, and he used his own sperm instead

408
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Speaker 3: of of the sperm that you know these couples were giving, right,

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Speaker 3: we want to conceive in some cases like we've been

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Speaker 3: married for years. Please help us, doctor Carbot, And he

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Speaker 3: says sure, and then and then fertilizes the egg with

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Speaker 3: his own with his own emissions. And at this point,

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Speaker 3: no one knows how many children this guy created as

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Speaker 3: a result of his insane conspiracy. I don't use the

415
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Speaker 3: word insane lightly. Everyone's certain though it's way more than

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Speaker 3: forty nine. It's like a god complex kind of situation.

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Speaker 2: Guys, really, let's really think about this. And hey, if

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Speaker 2: you're listening with kids in the car, turn it off.

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Speaker 2: Turn it off for a little bit. Skip forward thirty seconds. Ready,

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Speaker 2: this person masturbated himself forty nine times at least and

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Speaker 2: separate times in a room somewhere, and then took that

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Speaker 2: sample and then and had to put it into a

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Speaker 2: like specialized cup to protect it, and then took that

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Speaker 2: sample and did this procedure very carefully and very you

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Speaker 2: know this, this is it is so monstrous when you

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Speaker 2: think about that number of times, and those were the

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Speaker 2: successful times that we know of that he did it,

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Speaker 2: which means he probably did that hundreds of times.

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Speaker 3: At least he probably has about two hundred kids.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and this is one we're telling you one

431
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Speaker 2: person that did this. There are over fifty other cases

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Speaker 2: in the US of men who did the same thing,

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Speaker 2: and we're gonna get to it. But this, this is

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Speaker 2: one person that did it that many times. It's just like,

435
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Speaker 2: it makes me want to do bad things.

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Speaker 4: It seems like the same kind of compulsion that drives

437
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 4: serial killers and like serial rapists, and it just seems

438
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: very akin to that, and to be such a specific

439
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 4: thing that you're just gonna do over an over again

440
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: because you're chasing some kind of high from it or something.

441
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: It's just oh man, So let's continue with the Carbot

442
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: case because it is just like those US government numbers

443
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: and infertility. This is a snapshot of, indeed a global pattern.

444
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: Shout out to our friends at The Guardian. They have

445
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 3: a great blow by blow investigation into this issue. If

446
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about the Carbot case in particular,

447
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: do check out. Dutch fertility doctors secretly fathered at least

448
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: forty nine children from twenty nineteen, which is over four

449
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: years ago now when it comes out they got a

450
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 3: lot of this information with the help of a fantastic

451
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 3: nonprofit group called Defense for Children, a global organization fighting

452
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: for children's rights. Carbot did this for decades again, nineteen

453
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: eighty all the way to two thousand and nine. This

454
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 3: didn't go public. It was kind of an open secret

455
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: for a while, but it didn't go public until twenty nineteen.

456
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 3: A Dutch court ruled that the results of Carbot's DNA tests,

457
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: which he denied for the entirety of his life, should

458
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: be made available to parents and children with questions. The

459
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: case involved twenty two people who had for a long

460
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 3: time been petitioning Dutch courts to have their own DNA

461
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 3: samples compared to that of their parents' fertility doctor, and

462
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: Carbot for the entirety of his life managed to dodge this,

463
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: refused to cooperate with investigators.

464
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: We're going to get into this too, guys. But one

465
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: of the reasons that it's been difficult to charge these

466
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: doctors is because the laws in various places don't cover

467
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: this specific act as something that is even illegal.

468
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: Right before two thousand and four, Dutch quorts had up

469
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: until two thousand and four before they reversed the decision

470
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: in the Netherlands. If you were a child born to

471
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 3: donors of any sort, you had no legal right to

472
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: learn the identity of your biological parent. So if you

473
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: are a I said it wasn't going to curse on

474
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: today's episode, but this is so nasty. Paul, beat me here.

475
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: If you are a monster, this is a perfect crime.

476
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: Right if you are one of these, one of these Carbots.

477
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: Well until you know twenty three and me another DNA

478
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: like commercially part of the story here.

479
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: It is so for a sense of scale, about ten

480
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: thousand children were conceived at Carbots clinic over the lifetime

481
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: its lifetime. Yeah, and we want to shout out the

482
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: journalist Camille ba Luke spent three years investigating the case.

483
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: He has published a book based on his research, which

484
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: has a lot of interviews with doctor Carbot himself. It's

485
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: called All Louis's Children and it's fantastically written. It's a

486
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: real rough read. You can also if you want to

487
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: save your time on the book, you can check out

488
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 3: on YouTube. Right now, you can check out an interview

489
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 3: that Vice had with the journalist Beluke himself. What you'll

490
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: see is disturbing. Doctor Carbot has no remorse whatsoever for

491
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: his actions, which are clearly meditated. He is a he

492
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: is a times nine thousand, this guy, and he had

493
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: You might ask were there any consequences for him not

494
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 3: in this.

495
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 4: World, because you mentioned the law was at at the

496
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: very least what you consider a loophole, and he was

497
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: clearly very aware of that.

498
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: And used it to his advantage, right, yeah, yeah, And

499
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: just before the case goes to court, he dies. It's

500
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, he's eighty nine years old. He never faced

501
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: a mortal court. He also had already mentioned open secrets

502
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: in interviews with journalists with his non consensual children. Well,

503
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 3: I guess every child is non consensually born. You know,

504
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: it's fair, right, right, But you see what I'm saying

505
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: that there would be people trying to track down their

506
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: own providence, their own origin story, and they would find

507
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 3: this guy at his home at the clinic, just walking

508
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 3: around and they would say, hey, are you my father?

509
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: And what he would do is how much of an

510
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: open secret is? He would say, hold up your hands,

511
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: and he would just compare hands with them because he

512
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 3: would never take a DNA test. It's so creepy.

513
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 4: I imagine in the journalist the journalist's piece that you

514
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 4: mentioned some of these children are that story as well.

515
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he has interviews with them and a couple

516
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: are cided also in the Vice News summary the interview.

517
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: And you know, maybe it's like a confirmation bias, but

518
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: if you watch the if you watch the clips, you'll

519
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: look at these folks and think are they related? Or

520
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: am I racist? Do all Dutch people just look alike

521
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: to me? But I think they look similar? And the

522
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: DNA will later go to prove it. The worst part is,

523
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: so this guy's never going to go in front of

524
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: a mortal court. He is also only one example of

525
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: a troubling trend, and we have a lot more to discuss.

526
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: As you set up earlier, Matt so Astuteley, there are

527
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 3: many many people who have been doing this grift and

528
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: getting away with it for a long long time. Should

529
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: we take a break for a word from our sponsors, Yep,

530
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: we've returned. Even before the success and the economy of

531
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: scale of IVF in nineteen seventy eight in England, there

532
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: were people like Quincy Fortier or Fortier, a Las Vegas

533
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: based fertility expert who during his forty year practice definitely

534
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: created twenty six children without the consent of the women

535
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: he was impregnating and just to drive home.

536
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 4: These are all officially licensed physicians, right, They're not perpetrating

537
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: fraud in.

538
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: That aspect at least, right.

539
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 4: This is like they're not running some fly by night,

540
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 4: you know, pretending to be experts. That does happen, but

541
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: in in these cases, these were all truly licensed doctors

542
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 4: who had been through all the proper training.

543
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: They just happened to be sick individuals. Yeah, and Quincy

544
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: dies in two thousand and six. He's ninety four years old.

545
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: People don't uncover the full extent of his crimes until

546
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, when a lady is celebrating her retirement with

547
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 3: a home DNA test and learns learns the truth. And

548
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: then there's someone like to the point about there's something

549
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: I know. I always rail against this, and I only

550
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: sound like a broken record because it is true. Technology

551
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: always outpaces legislation, legislation reacts to technology, and as a

552
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: result is always playing the game of catchup. Let's go

553
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: to a guy named Cecil Jacobsen nineteen eighties, Virginia.

554
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, according to this guy, there's a bit of a

555
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: problem where he worked. When someone came in a patient

556
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: came in, wanted to get pregnant, wanted to have help

557
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: getting inciminated. They would only have access to sperm that

558
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: was frozen, and well that's not going to work. So

559
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: this doctor decided, well, you would use his own. This

560
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: is in the nineteen eighties. His practice ran from where

561
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: are we nineteen seventy six until nineteen eighty eight, and

562
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: he fathered as many as seventy five kids.

563
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: Right yeah, and he could not and he was discovered

564
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 3: he could not be prosecuted because he had operated this

565
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: obscenity in Virginia entirely, and at the time there was

566
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: no law in the Commonwealth of Virginia to prohibit this crime.

567
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: Nobody thought anybody would be conceivably this messed up, you

568
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: know what I mean. They had not conceived of the

569
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: horror here. And we can go on and on. You know,

570
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: there's Norman Barroway in Ottawa and twenty twenty one. We

571
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: could go on again. There's Donald Klein from seventy four

572
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 3: to eighty seven, and we could go on like this.

573
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: Let's name some more doctor Merle Berger in Sharon, Massachusetts,

574
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: doctor Christopher Herndon, and doctor David Claypool in Washington. Doctor

575
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: Paul Brennan Jones in Colorado, doctor John Boyd Coates, the

576
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: third in Vermont, doctor Morris Mortman, and doctor as you said,

577
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: Kleine in.

578
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: Doctor Donald Clin. Yeah out. And then there there are

579
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: further consequences like those post in Connecticut. Burton Caldwell may

580
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: have well made, some made some folks unknowingly accidentally incestuous.

581
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: It is important to know where you come from, right,

582
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: And it is important like this is just ah, this

583
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: bothers me so much. We talk about so many evil things,

584
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: but this one gets to me in particular because part

585
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: of it is it is at this point virtually impossible

586
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 3: to know just how many doctors successfully conducted these types

587
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 3: of conspiracies. Right, Oh, absolutely.

588
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 4: And you know one I thought was worth mentioning because

589
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 4: it also involves that weird loophole in Dutch law.

590
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 3: And I believe we discussed this a while back on.

591
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

592
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 4: It was a dutch Man who is suspected of fathering

593
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 4: more than five hundred children through excessive sperm donations. And

594
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: I haven't seen an update yet as to what he's

595
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: being held liable for, but he was facing a fine

596
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 4: of more than one hundred thousand euros, but only if

597
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 4: he tries to donate again. He's been banned from donated

598
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: fertility clinics in the Netherlands, had been actually since twenty

599
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 4: seventeen after it murdered that he had fathered more than

600
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: one hundred children. But instead of stopping, he just took

601
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 4: it international, right, and he was actually tried.

602
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: In the Hague, which is like where they try war

603
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: criminals and stuff.

604
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 4: It's kind of wild, but in the end, Yeah, looking

605
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 4: like more than five hundred children, between five hundred and

606
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 4: six hundred children. Since he began doing anything sperm in

607
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: two two thousand and seven, all we know is his

608
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 4: name was Jonathan.

609
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as of twenty twenty three, he was forty

610
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 3: one years old. I remember bringing that to our Strange

611
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 3: News program, and one thing that stood out to me

612
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: about this was again the legislative lag let's call it

613
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: that because if you're traveling internationally, I think he spent

614
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: some time in Australia as well, it's difficult to track

615
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: these activities. And he started donating sperm in two thousand

616
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: and seven. We have a short form social media video

617
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 3: about it, which is sort of whistling in the graveyard

618
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 3: of these evil, evil things, And I just want to say,

619
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: like I I appreciate you guys so much for allowing

620
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: us to bring that story to light back in our

621
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 3: Strange News and for doing the sketch which does.

622
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: Hold up that was your strange news story, right.

623
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just thank you for laying it on. Get

624
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 3: on the air man.

625
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 4: Actually, in the BBC article that I just found, it

626
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 4: referenced a lot of these cases that we're talking about

627
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 4: as well, because it is sort of like, well, this

628
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 4: guy wasn't a doctor. It does show the flaws in

629
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 4: Dutch law that led to this being possible.

630
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: You're talking about Emily McGarvey, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, this

631
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: is this is a real thing, and that's I love

632
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 3: that you're bringing this up because that's adjacent to as

633
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: he said, that's adjacent to this problem. The legislation is

634
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: the issue, right There's we were talking a little bit

635
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: off air before we recorded. I have been against the

636
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 3: dangers of the commercialization of genetic testing for a long time.

637
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 3: It's going to be very challenging for human society and

638
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: then year future and in the long term it's a

639
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 3: whole other bag of badgers. But in this case, no

640
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: matter what we think about the economy of scale, the

641
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: monetization of DNA. This technology is the only reason we

642
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: know about a lot of these crimes. Right, there is

643
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: a good side. It is good that this stuff exists.

644
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 3: But do you think that laws will be written to

645
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: combat this?

646
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's Hr. Thirty seven to ten, the Fighting Fertility

647
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: Fraud Act of twenty twenty three that's currently sitting with

648
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: the House Committee on the Judiciary at the House of Representatives.

649
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: It's just been sitting there since twenty twenty three in May.

650
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: I think it could potentially be a thing in the future,

651
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: and there are other states like Texas that have passed

652
00:40:53,280 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: laws that specifically characterize or classify fertility fraud as like

653
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: a thing that can be prosecuted where you can actually

654
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: go to jail four years for perpetrating these kinds of acts.

655
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: I think ten years you could go one crime, so

656
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: like one count a fertility fraud would be ten years

657
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: in prison, which is awesome. Let's do that. It's just

658
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: kind of hanging out now though, in limbo. But thankfully

659
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: there are other states that are trying to get things

660
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: on the books like this, so hopefully that's in the

661
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 2: future what we will see.

662
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: Agreed, agreed, and that's what that's what we can do.

663
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: We can hope we can raise awareness. We also have

664
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: to say that, you know, this rank conspiratorial pattern leaves

665
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 3: us with some serious things to consider as a civilization.

666
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 3: It goes beyond national borders. The answer it's, I would argue,

667
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: part procedural, part philosophical. There is some stuff that unscrupulous

668
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 3: doctors don't want you to know, and they are getting

669
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: away with it. They have been getting away with it.

670
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, man. Just like on a positive note,

671
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: you know this is hard for a lot of us

672
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: to hear this evening, but family is family. We need

673
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 3: to give a heartfelt thank you to all the parents

674
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: out there who are raising their children well. Whether you

675
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: are an adoptive parent, a biological parent, a step parent,

676
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: it matters. Not Every child deserves a parent, deserves a family,

677
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: and family can't be defined by biology alone. Let me

678
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: get off this soapbox. This one got to me. Sorry,

679
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: nice dude.

680
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: I think you have to all this for various reasons,

681
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 4: just human reasons. But also Matt, I appreciate you sharing

682
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 4: your own personal story and you know connection to this topic.

683
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: No, yeah, man, right on it. Sucks. It really sucks,

684
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: really really sucks. Well, Hey, if you want to learn

685
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: more about this stuff, and for some reason you have

686
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: a morbid curiosity, maybe you can check out a couple

687
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: of documentaries that exist on the internet right now. If

688
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: you have Netflix, you can check out that one's Our Father,

689
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: that's what is called Our Father. It's about doctor Donald

690
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 2: Klein that we mentioned. And on HBO slash Max whatever

691
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: that thing is now, I think it's called Max. You

692
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: can watch Baby God. That's about doctor Quincy Fortier.

693
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 3: F O R T I E R and God Complex, right,

694
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: I mean the name. Yeah. You can also again, if

695
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about the doctor from the

696
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: Netherlands we spoke about specifically, do check out the book

697
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: All Louis Children. We can't thank you enough, folks for

698
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: tuning in. We want to hear your thoughts. Should there

699
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 3: be more legislation prohibiting things like this? Right? Imagine committing

700
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 3: a crime of such a heinous nature and the law

701
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 3: is not able to prosecute you because they have never

702
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: articulated a law against it. What do you think is

703
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 3: the solution? What are your personal experiences? We would love

704
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 3: to hear from you. We try to be easy to

705
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: find online. That's right.

706
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 4: You can find us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

707
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 4: we exist on Facebook, on YouTube, and on x fka, Twitter, on.

708
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 3: Instagram and TikTok. We are Conspiracy Stuff show.

709
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: Hey, do you like to call people? Why not call us?

710
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three std wytk. It's

711
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail that you can leave only to

712
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and let us

713
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: know in that message if we can use your message

714
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: and name on the air. If you've got more to

715
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: say than can fit in that three minutes, one out. Instead,

716
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

717
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 3: We are the folks who read every single email we get.

718
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 3: Give us an essay, give us a haikup, give us

719
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 3: a limerick, hashtag, no pun left behind. Take us to

720
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: the edge of the rabbit hole. We will do the rest.

721
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,959
Speaker 3: Be well aware of folks. Sometimes the void writes back,

722
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 3: how can you prove it? Reach out and touch space

723
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

724
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

725
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

726
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,