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Speaker 1: to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match with a licensed

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Speaker 1: therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. We're wrapping

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Speaker 1: up season twelve of Next Question by looking back at

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Speaker 1: one of the craziest years ever. It's been almost impossible

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Speaker 1: to process the NonStop news cycle, so our team decided

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Speaker 1: to talk to some of the smartest people we know

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Speaker 1: about how this country and the world has changed in

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Speaker 1: almost every aspect of our lives, institutions have been weakened,

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Speaker 1: norms have been violated, rights have been rolled back, and

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Speaker 1: the world order rearranged. In other words, folks, it's been

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Speaker 1: a real dumpster fire. But don't take it for me.

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Speaker 1: Take it from these brainiacs who really know what they're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Here are their takes on twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: and in the meantime, Happy New Year everyone. New Yorker

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Speaker 1: writer Susan Glasser has got to be one of the

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Speaker 1: smartest people I know, so I spoke with her about

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Speaker 1: this turbulent first year of President Trump's second term and

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Speaker 1: what it means for our country. I'm with one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite people on the planet, Susan Glasser, who of

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Speaker 1: course writes for The New Yorker, but has been covering

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Speaker 1: Washington politics in one form or another for many years.

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Speaker 1: Not as long as I have, but for many years.

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Speaker 1: And we're beginning a series called the Year in Review.

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Speaker 1: How original, But there is so much to talk about

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Speaker 1: in different spaces, and when we decided we wanted to

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Speaker 1: focus a year in review on the Trump presidency, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't think of a better person than Susan to review

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Speaker 1: the last several months. I guess since his inauguration, and

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Speaker 1: I want to get to the meat of a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that have been done. But just as a

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Speaker 1: follow up, Susan, do you think the velocity is intentional

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Speaker 1: this kind of almost parapatetic way of running a country.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's intentional or do you think it

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Speaker 1: is just the result of a very chaotic, sort of

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Speaker 1: almost decentralized administration.

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Speaker 2: I think both can be true. I don't see that

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Speaker 2: as an either or. In a way, right, we're sort

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Speaker 2: of like sucked inside the news cycle of the ADHD

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Speaker 2: mind of the president. Right, so, in some sense, because

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Speaker 2: he's insisted upon an extreme centralization of power, right, he

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Speaker 2: is a classic you know, the management consultants will call him,

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Speaker 2: you know, the the ultimate kind of process nightmare.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: He's the you know, the hub and spoke system.

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Speaker 2: He's the hub of every discussion, and in fact, it's

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Speaker 2: the blowing up of the regular order process, especially AT's say,

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Speaker 2: in the national security world that I'm most familiar with.

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Speaker 2: That is one of the defining attributes of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's basically, you know, in the Obama or

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Speaker 2: Biden administration, you would talk about the interagency process and

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Speaker 2: then you would have you know, these recommendations, then you'd

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Speaker 2: have a Deputies committee meeting, then you would have Principals

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Speaker 2: committee meeting, then you would, you know, bring in the president.

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Speaker 2: It is literally you know, what it reminds me of

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Speaker 2: is my brief time when I was a foreign correspondent

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Speaker 2: covering Afghanistan after the war and the Taliban were toppled,

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Speaker 2: and basically the warlords this is how they governed. They

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Speaker 2: would have a big ante room, you know, with a

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Speaker 2: bunch of courtiers sitting around on couches waiting for their

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Speaker 2: moment with the big man, and then people they would

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Speaker 2: give audiences.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Marco Rubio, this is literally what he

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Speaker 1: does with his day.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't work on the seventh floor of the Department

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Speaker 2: Department of State like our normal secretaries of State. He's

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Speaker 2: dual hated as National Security Advisor. But he's not even

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Speaker 2: sitting in the famous corner office of the National Security

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Speaker 2: Advisor that you know ever since Henry Kissinger. He's sitting

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Speaker 2: on the couch in the Oval office, waiting for FaceTime

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Speaker 2: with the boss and making sure trying to make sure

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Speaker 2: that his rivals like JD. Vance or Steve Whitcoff aren't

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Speaker 2: getting the time. I mean, this is what it's about.

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Speaker 2: So partially when we.

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Speaker 1: Experience it as this chaos, it's.

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Speaker 2: Because we are actually being subjected to governing the United

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Speaker 2: States through the chaotic, unstructured schedule of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating and yet, you know, for better for worse,

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Speaker 1: and I think most people watching this believe it's for worse.

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Speaker 1: The number of things that they get done is pretty

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Speaker 1: it's pretty staggering. And the fact that he appears to

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Speaker 1: be so indefatigable Susan, I mean, he is jetting off

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Speaker 1: here doing this, you know, dealing with you know, emission

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Speaker 1: standards one second, dealing with Ukraine and Russia the next second.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating but also maddening to watch. And I'm curious

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Speaker 1: what you've learned. And it is, as you mentioned, very

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Speaker 1: different in this term than it was and the first,

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Speaker 1: where there were these guardrails in the form of sort

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Speaker 1: of people who weren't complete sycophants, and yes, people surrounding him, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had General Mattis, you had Rex Tillerson,

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Speaker 1: you had any number of people trying to kind of

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Speaker 1: rain him in, if you will. But what have you

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Speaker 1: learned about sort of how he's operating this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is a redundant question, but I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: because he does seem to get a lot done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Katie, I think these are really important questions. I

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Speaker 2: wish we actually understood more about the dynamics of some

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Speaker 2: of these decisions and decision making. I think part of

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Speaker 2: the reason we don't is because of the lack of

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Speaker 2: formal bureaucratic process, which, by the way, is the hallmark

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Speaker 2: of modern industrialized states. I mean, you know, not to

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Speaker 2: get all you know, political science y on us, but

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Speaker 2: you know, you can go back to the late nineteenth century,

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Speaker 2: early twentieth century and you know, Max Weber and understand

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Speaker 2: that it's the orderly process that is the foundation of

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Speaker 2: rule of law societies, right. And you know, what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing here is something much closer to the personalist behavior

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Speaker 2: of even an elected autocracy, right. And you know, a

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Speaker 2: sort of oligarchy where it's direct access to the president

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Speaker 2: rather than orderly process that dictate outcome. So you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is not unprecedented in world history. We

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Speaker 2: ought to learn, you know, what to call it so

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Speaker 2: that we can understand it.

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Speaker 1: I guess is my view, Project twenty twenty five is

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Speaker 1: the playbook guiding this Trump administration's agenda, and The Atlantic

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Speaker 1: staff writer David Graham literally wrote the book on it.

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Speaker 1: It's called The Project, and he came on the podcast

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Speaker 1: earlier this year to talk about it. It was one

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Speaker 1: of our most listened to episodes, so I invited him

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Speaker 1: back to break down how much of that agenda is

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Speaker 1: already in motion and what's coming next. I'm excited that

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Speaker 1: our guest today is David Graham. David is the staff

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Speaker 1: writer for the Atlantic, and he is also the author

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Speaker 1: of a book called The Project. How Project twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five is Reshaping America, which came out earlier this year.

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Speaker 1: Back in April, David and I sat down to talk

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Speaker 1: about what exactly Project twenty twenty five is. And now,

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Speaker 1: as part of our year and Review series, we're here

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Speaker 1: to talk about what has happened and how much of

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five has been enacted. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about Project twenty twenty five and the tracker, which has

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Speaker 1: been tracking all three hundred and nineteen objectives. The website

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Speaker 1: says the administration has implemented about half of these in

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Speaker 1: under a year, so tell us give us a progress report.

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Speaker 1: Is this more or less than they hope to implement

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Speaker 1: this year?

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Speaker 4: I think they were hoping to get us more much

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Speaker 4: as they could, but they have succeeded. It seemed well

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Speaker 4: beyond what they.

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Speaker 1: Expected they could do.

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Speaker 4: And it's hard to sort of grasp it because the

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Speaker 4: goals they have range from these little, minor mechanical goals

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Speaker 4: to really sweeping things, you know, closing the Education Department,

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Speaker 4: politicizing the Justice Department. So you see them working on

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Speaker 4: all these different levels, and so think that number is accurate,

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Speaker 4: but sort of it's helpful to put it in some context.

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Speaker 4: The places where I think they've done less. I think

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Speaker 4: some of their goals of for example, cracking down on

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Speaker 4: abortion or changing labor laws, or encouraging you know, higher

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Speaker 4: birth rates, those are places we haven't seen a lot

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Speaker 4: of project progress. Rather, when you look at cutting environmental

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Speaker 4: regulations or politicizing the Justice Department, taking over independent agencies,

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Speaker 4: laying off civil servants, those are the places where I

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Speaker 4: think they've had the greatest progress so far.

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Speaker 1: So we should make it clear. I think David, the

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five isn't just coming out of the

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Speaker 1: White House as you mentioned, it's the doj OMB, the FCC,

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Speaker 1: the FTC. How have all these offices managed to kind

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Speaker 1: of work together and catalyze these drastic changes over such

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Speaker 1: a short period of time because it had to be

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Speaker 1: pretty well orchestrated.

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Speaker 4: No, that's right, and I think part of that is

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Speaker 4: winning the right people from their perspective into jobs. So

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Speaker 4: I think the Federal Communications Commission is a great example

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Speaker 4: of this. It's an agency that is technically independent. You know,

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Speaker 4: the officials are appointed by the President and approved by

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Speaker 4: the Senate, and then it operates on its own. Historically,

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Speaker 4: the head of the SEC is Brendan Carr, who wrote

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Speaker 4: a chapter on the FCC four project twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 4: and he is basically acting as an agent at the

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Speaker 4: White House. So we've seen him, for example, threatening ABC

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Speaker 4: famously in the case of Jimmy Kimmel and basically saying

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Speaker 4: if you don't take him off the air, there will

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Speaker 4: be serious consequences. We've seen him threatening CBS, demanding transcripts

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Speaker 4: of interviews and sort of bullying them, threatening not to

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Speaker 4: approve mergers. We see this potentially as a case as

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Speaker 4: a matter again now with a Warner Brothers sale and

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Speaker 4: so we can soon to see how that would work,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's a preview. Just this week, the

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Speaker 4: administration was at the Supreme Court arguing for the right

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Speaker 4: basically to be able to fire any of the heads

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Speaker 4: of these agencies. And if they succeed, which looks to

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Speaker 4: most court watchers like they'll succeed at least on some level,

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Speaker 4: they'll have the power to turn mainly these agencies into

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Speaker 4: sort of functional political arms in exactly the same way

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Speaker 4: at DJ we see how you know they're using federal

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Speaker 4: prosecutions basically as a tool to punish political opponents. James, comey,

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Speaker 4: Letitia James. You know, these are not prosecutions that make

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Speaker 4: a lot of sense based on the marriage, but they

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Speaker 4: do make a lot of sense if you're trying to

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Speaker 4: punish your opponents and intimidate the opposition.

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Speaker 1: They've gotten very little opposition to enacting this because Congress

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Speaker 1: is basically rolled over. What impact would the mid terms,

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Speaker 1: if in fact the Democrats win back the House, What

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Speaker 1: impact will that have on implementing some of the things

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Speaker 1: that Project twenty twenty five is recommending but have yet

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Speaker 1: to take effect.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's an interesting question what that would look like,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's I'm supposed to try to wrap

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Speaker 4: my head around it. You know, in many ways, what

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Speaker 4: has made it difference is Congress has just done nothing

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Speaker 4: and in the process has yielded a lot of these

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Speaker 4: rights up to Trump, and where they push back is

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Speaker 4: really on things that are about their very specific prerogatives,

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Speaker 4: like the filibuster Center Republicans. When Trump said we should

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Speaker 4: have Bollo as a failing buster. That's one place where

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Speaker 4: you saw Center Republicans pushing back because many of them

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Speaker 4: have been in the minority and they want to have

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Speaker 4: that if they're ever in the minority again. But on

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Speaker 4: policy issues you don't see that, And I think the

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Speaker 4: result is many of these things are done, it's a

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Speaker 4: little bit late to stop some of them. A democratic

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Speaker 4: House would have a big effect on oversight. We get

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Speaker 4: a lot more transparency, we would presumably see subpoenas. But

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Speaker 4: so much what he's doing is not about legislation. You know,

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Speaker 4: Republicans pass basically one huge piece of legislation and have

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Speaker 4: done very little else because they've decided to go around

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Speaker 4: Congress rather than using it to get the things they

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Speaker 4: want done.

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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on

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Speaker 1: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,

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Speaker 1: and of course covering the news, and I know that

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Speaker 1: to keep doing what I love, I need to start

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Speaker 1: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why

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Speaker 1: goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

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Speaker 1: or book your own free personalized fitting. I've known Richard

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Speaker 1: for gulp nearly forty years. We first met in a

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Speaker 1: grocery store line in Washington, d C. I tell the

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Speaker 1: whole story in our latest Substack conversation, so make sure

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Speaker 1: to check it out if you want him know more.

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Speaker 1: Aside from being a good friend, he's also one of

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Speaker 1: the most knowledgeable voices on foreign policy and led the

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Speaker 1: Council on Foreign Relations for twenty years. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: Richard about how President Trump is upending longstanding US foreign

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Speaker 1: policy and how to make sense of a world that

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Speaker 1: increasingly feels like it's spinning off its axis.

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Speaker 5: There's eighty years of American foreign policy that this administration,

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Speaker 5: if you will, inherited, and for most of those eighty years,

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Speaker 5: even big parts of Trump one point zero, the foreign

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Speaker 5: policy took place within certain boundaries or a football field,

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Speaker 5: you'd say, within ten or twenty yards of midfield. This

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Speaker 5: is a radical departure in many ways. Allies are no

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Speaker 5: longer at the center of US foreign policy. The tariffs

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Speaker 5: that were instituted don't distinguish between friends and foes. The

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Speaker 5: emphasis on things economic haatie. Every other president said, if

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Speaker 5: we have order in the world and stability, we have

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Speaker 5: a functioning global trading and investment environment, we Americans are

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Speaker 5: going to do. Okay. This is the first administration that

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Speaker 5: doesn't care about any of those things. It's just focused

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Speaker 5: very narrowly on deals, particularly on commercial deals. There's a

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Speaker 5: lack of any interest whatsoever in participating in international institutions.

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Speaker 5: There's no interest in promoting democracy or human rights. The

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Speaker 5: president's gone out of his way to basically say, how

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Speaker 5: how you treat your own citizens as your business, We're

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Speaker 5: not in the business of telling you how to run

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Speaker 5: your country. So it's kind of almost a hyper super realist,

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Speaker 5: and I think you know what we've seen recently. We'll

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Speaker 5: talk about it as a surprising emphasis on the Western hemisphere,

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Speaker 5: a real hostility towards europe An unwillingness to support Ukraine,

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Speaker 5: a real CosIng up to Russia and to some extent China.

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Speaker 5: So so many of the things that we thought we

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Speaker 5: could assume about American foreign policy simply don't hold for

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Speaker 5: this administration. And one last thing, it's not isolationist. This

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Speaker 5: administration has an international agenda. It's just quite radical, and

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Speaker 5: it's radically different.

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Speaker 1: How would you compare the sort of approach in the

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Speaker 1: second Trump term versus the first?

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Speaker 5: A greater emphasis on business deals this time around, on

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Speaker 5: commercial a continuation, but in a deepening of the embrace

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Speaker 5: of authoritarians, be it in the Gulf or in Russia

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Speaker 5: in particular, also to some extent in China. We haven't

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Speaker 5: yet had North Korea, but just to give you one example,

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Speaker 5: you had the love letters with North Korea last time.

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Speaker 5: It was interesting that North Korea hasn't come in for

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Speaker 5: any criticism. Again, a hostility towards allies. I think that's

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Speaker 5: pretty pretty because a greater emphasis on the Western hemisphere,

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Speaker 5: this time around, not interested in climate change. That was true, then,

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Speaker 5: it's it's true now some similarities, but I think it's

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Speaker 5: I think it's almost doubled down whatever the tendencies were

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Speaker 5: the first time around. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 5: that might also be because of who's around this president.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask. In many ways, I think

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Speaker 1: people like General Mattis and McMaster and some of the

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Speaker 1: foreign policy gurus that surrounded the president the first go

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Speaker 1: round were frustrated, either got fired or left or spoke

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Speaker 1: out against him. And he doesn't really have anyone who

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Speaker 1: is that moderating force in the current administration.

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Speaker 5: Does he He doesn't have that. He doesn't have a process.

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Speaker 5: You know, Marco Rubio as Secretary of State and National

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Speaker 5: Security Advisor, I think is also the government archivist, and

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Speaker 5: I don't know what else he does. But the process

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Speaker 5: is almost all top down in this administration. From the President.

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Speaker 5: You've got a special envoy for everything and everywhere, and

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Speaker 5: Steve Witcoff.

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Speaker 6: You have.

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Speaker 5: Robin to his batman and Jared Kushner. Now this is

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Speaker 5: almost like the president. There's a rejection of formal structures

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Speaker 5: as a kind of improvisational quality to this, and a

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Speaker 5: rejection of traditional advisors. I think the president felt people

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Speaker 5: like Jim Mattis, John Bolton and others hmmed them in

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Speaker 5: the first time around. So this is he wanted to

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Speaker 5: have a foreign policy that really bears his signature and

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Speaker 5: his personality.

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Speaker 1: I handed this one over. Molner might go to when

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Speaker 1: it comes to business and the economy. He spoke with

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Speaker 1: Steve Rattner, CEO of will It Advisors and the economic

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Speaker 1: analysts on Morning Joe about the state of the economy

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Speaker 1: under President Trump. And yes, they covered the a word affordability.

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Speaker 5: Where are we in the challenge of affordability?

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Speaker 7: Because you know, as I was doing my homework for

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Speaker 7: the call moments before this, I noticed, because I wouldn't

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Speaker 7: know from shopping, but the price of eggs down seventy percent?

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Speaker 1: Is that true?

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Speaker 8: Yeah? But from a huge, big high. You know, eggs

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Speaker 8: unrelated to any.

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Speaker 7: Purell sorts of problems with with an Asian flu.

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Speaker 8: And and all that why eggs was so high.

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Speaker 7: Okay, so that's not because the administration did something wondrous

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Speaker 7: and Americans canal afford eggs.

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Speaker 8: No, there's nothing, And I'm I'm going to I'm trying

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Speaker 8: to be and I will be very objective about this.

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Speaker 8: There's nothing the administration has done that actually has made

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Speaker 8: the inclition problem any easier or better, and there are

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Speaker 8: some things they've done, like tariffs, that have made it worse.

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Speaker 8: It's inflation is a problem, but you can deal with

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Speaker 8: inflation if wages are going up fast enough. But they're not.

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Speaker 8: And so if you look at the and this is

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Speaker 8: not how people feel, but the facts are, if you

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Speaker 8: look at the last three or four years, we actually

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Speaker 8: did make some progress on affordability in terms of wages

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Speaker 8: going up faster than prices this year, and this has

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Speaker 8: to do partly with the fact that the unemployment rate

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Speaker 8: has started to go up. Wages have not kept up

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Speaker 8: with inflation. But the problem of affordability is a very

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Speaker 8: deep problem. A lot of it is housing. We don't

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Speaker 8: have enough housing, and therefore the price of housing is high,

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Speaker 8: and the cost of your mortgage hasn't really come down

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Speaker 8: a lot because interest rates are still certainly higher than

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Speaker 8: they were before the period between the financial prices and COVID.

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Speaker 8: So housing affordability is really terrible. And this is a

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Speaker 8: deep structural problem that we're not really doing much to solve.

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Speaker 8: But it's not gonna but it's not. It's not therefore

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Speaker 8: getting solved.

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Speaker 1: Nicole Foy is an incredible reporter pro Publica who wrote

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Speaker 1: a piece about the number of US citizens who are

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Speaker 1: being impacted by the Trump administration's ice raids. I spoke

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Speaker 1: with her about what the hell has happened this year

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Speaker 1: and why so many Americans are being treated like criminals.

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Speaker 1: You found that more than one hundred and seventy US

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Speaker 1: citizens had not only been detained but also quote dragged, tackled,

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Speaker 1: beaten taste, and shot by immigration agents. Tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about before I want to ask about how

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Speaker 1: you were able to do all the research that led

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Speaker 1: you to these numbers, But tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the conditions. Is this unusual or were many of

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Speaker 1: these people treated this way?

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Speaker 9: I think that there were many of the people that

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Speaker 9: we wrote about and that whose stories we uncovered were

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Speaker 9: treated this way. Certainly, not all, But I think one

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Speaker 9: of the reasons that we wanted to emphasize that was

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Speaker 9: because there was this kind of like idealized interaction with

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Speaker 9: immigration agents that the administration, even the Supreme Court was positing.

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Speaker 9: Was that you know, someone approaches you, they ask for

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Speaker 9: your papers, if you have your passport on you or

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Speaker 9: some other information proving your citizenship, you check it and

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Speaker 9: you go on your way. Sure, that has absolutely happened

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Speaker 9: to people. But the truth that we have seen playing

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Speaker 9: out across the country is that some of these interactions

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Speaker 9: have been incredibly violent as people have struggled to explain

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Speaker 9: themselves or struggle to prove their citizenship. But also too,

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Speaker 9: we were seeing a number of citizens who were being detained,

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Speaker 9: not so much because immigration agents were doubting their citizenship,

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Speaker 9: but because they were being accused of assaulting officers, of

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Speaker 9: impeding investigations, of getting too close to officers, maybe at

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Speaker 9: a protest, and it was really just again another natural

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Speaker 9: consequence of these more immigration agents than usual are going

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Speaker 9: into communities that have sometimes been very vocal about not

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Speaker 9: wanting them there, and they have pushed back by filming,

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Speaker 9: by following officers, and many of those people who were

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Speaker 9: charged with assault, there's video evidence, there's even court cases.

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Speaker 9: Some of those cases fell apart pretty quickly, but they

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Speaker 9: were detained. They were held for days.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to know, I mean, is there an

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Speaker 1: average number of days that I mean, what is the

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Speaker 1: most egregious example of a US citizen and being detained

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Speaker 1: and held by ice when they should not have been.

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Speaker 9: I think one of the most egregious examples was a

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Speaker 9: young man in California who he was one of more

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Speaker 9: than twenty Americans that we found at the time who

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Speaker 9: had been held for several days without for at least

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Speaker 9: a day without being able to contact their lawyer, their

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Speaker 9: loved ones even knew where they were. A young man

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Speaker 9: named George read This, who was a security guard at

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Speaker 9: a large marijuana farm that was raided this summer in California.

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Speaker 9: He was trying to get to work, got caught up

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Speaker 9: in the protest, and even though he approached officers, was

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Speaker 9: asking for help, where do I put my car? Like

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Speaker 9: I'm just trying to work, I'm not part of the protest.

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Speaker 9: He in front of cameras, was pepper sprayed, window of

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Speaker 9: his car was broken, he was dragged out of his car,

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Speaker 9: and then he essentially disappeared. I learned about him like

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Speaker 9: many in America learned about him, when his sister appeared

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Speaker 9: on TV the next day begging crying for information, saying,

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Speaker 9: we saw what happened to him, and he's disappeared. We

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Speaker 9: have no idea what happened to him. He had managed

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Speaker 9: to call his wife on his Apple watch and say, hey,

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Speaker 9: Ice picked me up, and of course they had no

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Speaker 9: idea what that meant. He was a US citizen and.

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Speaker 1: He was Agilia who works with me, just wrote he's

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Speaker 1: a combat army bet yes he is.

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Speaker 9: And his car says Iraq combat veteran on it as well.

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Speaker 9: So he he disappeared. He was he was taken into

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Speaker 9: the federal detention center for several days. He was not

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Speaker 9: given access to a lawyer, He was never told what

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Speaker 9: he was charged with, and he was eventually, after being

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Speaker 9: kept in isolation, not being allowed to shower or even

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Speaker 9: get sufficient medical attention for you know that pepper spray

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Speaker 9: was still burning his hands, he was released without charges,

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Speaker 9: and he says without an apology. They never told him

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Speaker 9: what he was charged with until later months later, actually,

436
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 9: the Department of Homes Homeland Security spokesperson tweeted out that

437
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 9: he had been arrested because of allegations of assault. That

438
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 9: was months later and after he had been pretty prominently

439
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 9: sharing his story everywhere.

440
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: The allegations of sabb is this an example of what

441
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about, where like an ICE agent comes in

442
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: and somebody is in the area and maybe protesting them

443
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: or yelling at them.

444
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think sometimes these were happening at protests or

445
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 9: people who were you know, sometimes like seeing their neighbor

446
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 9: being arrested, or they're loved looking arrest and they got involved.

447
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 9: But many times now, in many of the cases, I

448
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 9: have tracked people who very clearly there was some sort

449
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 9: of doubt about their citizenship. That's you know, there was

450
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 9: a young woman in downtown Los Angeles who said that

451
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 9: her name was Andrew Velez and she was being dropped

452
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 9: off for work and suddenly was detained, and they said

453
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 9: they immediately began asking her about her citizenship and did

454
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 9: you speak English? Assuming she didn't speak English, but they

455
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 9: charged her with assaulting an officer.

456
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: That was even even if she didn't assault an officer,

457
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: they're kind of trying to take sort of arrest them

458
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: under false pretenses.

459
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 9: Well, yeah, I mean, I definitely can't speculate ye for why,

460
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 9: but I mean, that's honestly one of the reasons why

461
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 9: when we were trying to decide, like what cases do

462
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 9: we include, is like why when we're tracking these numbers

463
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 9: of citizens attained, it became increasingly difficult for me to

464
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 9: determine between whether someone was arrested because of questions about

465
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 9: their citizenship or because of allegations of assaulting an officer,

466
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 9: because they blended together, especially in many of these chaotic circumstances,

467
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 9: and because inevitably, many times after a widely publicized arrest

468
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 9: had gone viral, devernminent Homeland Security would come back and say, like,

469
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 9: we don't arrest citizens for immigration enforcement. That person was

470
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 9: assaulting an officer.

471
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: Even if the kind of you can see how some

472
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: like ice agents would descend on somebody, they're a US citizen.

473
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: It's a natural thing to be like, you know, get

474
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: away from me, to kind of you know, do that,

475
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: and that could be I think interpreted as assaulting an

476
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: officer who knows, right.

477
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I also think too that we're saying

478
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 9: more and more DHS officials claiming that filming or following

479
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 9: agents is assaulting or impeding an investigation. That it is

480
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 9: absolutely legal to film immigration officials, but there have been

481
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 9: many cases where those like that seems to be why

482
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 9: people have been detained. It is because they were following

483
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 9: as part of a neighborhood watch group or just filming

484
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 9: something that was happening right in front of them.

485
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you said, that's legal, but they're being

486
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: arrested for it. I discover Jessica Neurik through her Instagram,

487
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: where she's become a clear, evidence based voice cutting through

488
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: a lot of nutrition and health misinformation. She's a registered

489
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: dietitian with a doctorate in nutrition science, and I've been

490
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: so impressed by the works he's done pushing back on

491
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: this administration's anti science claims. We talked about the MAHA

492
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: movement led by Health and Human Services Secretary RFK Junior

493
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: and the real public health consequences we're already seen unfold.

494
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: We are talking about the year in government, the year

495
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: in politics, the year in foreign policy, and we wanted

496
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: to invite you, Jessica, to cover the year in public health.

497
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: I think so much has happened, it's really difficult to

498
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: keep up with everything that is going on. Let's talk

499
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: about what RFKS accomplished or what he's done. We should

500
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: point out that he now oversees all major health agencies

501
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: in this country, the CDC, the Food and Drug Administration ANDIH,

502
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: the National Institutes of Health and others. So I'm curious

503
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: what you think about the things that he has put

504
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: in place, and what really sticks out in your mind

505
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: about the steps he's taken this year.

506
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean what really stands out is RFK Junior

507
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 10: was has been a threat to public health for a

508
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 10: very long time. He's been, you know, really loud in

509
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 10: the anti vaccine space for a couple of decades, and

510
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 10: so a lot of people in public health were very

511
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 10: aware of him as he was coming out when he

512
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 10: was running as a president or for president on the

513
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 10: Democratic side, and then when he switched over was running

514
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 10: as an independent I think, and then was and then

515
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 10: when he partnered with Trump, and I think the fear

516
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 10: was always that he would come in and he would

517
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 10: really kind of like bring those anti vaccine views to

518
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 10: you know, the highest public health agency in the world.

519
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 10: And that's exactly what we've seen happen, you know, this

520
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 10: entire thing. When he was going through his confirmation with

521
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 10: Bil Cassidy, Senator Bilcasidy, he was the deciding vote, and

522
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 10: he said he got a bunch of concessions from RFK

523
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 10: Junior that he would do a number of things, and

524
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 10: we've seen him do the exact opposite of every concession.

525
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 10: Vilcacidy listed and so I think that's that was definitely

526
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 10: the thing coming into this that we knew was was

527
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 10: at risk, and certainly that's panned out as well. But

528
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 10: you know, what we've seen really is just this erosion

529
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 10: of trust that I think is is happening because we're

530
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 10: really platforming a lot of anti science and pseudoscientific viewpoints,

531
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 10: and you know, he's come in and he completely you know,

532
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 10: did away with all of ASIP and uh, the the

533
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 10: immunization you know, our our agency or our our group

534
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 10: that kind of reviews immunization policy, and he's inserted lots

535
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 10: of people who you know, are his anti vaccine buddies

536
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 10: or he had in his book and things like that.

537
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 10: So I think I think the CDC and vaccine stuff

538
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 10: is probably where he's doing the most damage. But in

539
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 10: terms of like all of HHS and the Trump administration,

540
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 10: because we have to remember, we can't just look at

541
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 10: our FK Junior by himself. He partnered with this at

542
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 10: particular administration, and so what we're seeing are just cuts

543
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 10: across all of these agencies. We're seeing huge losses and

544
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 10: personnel and scientists and staff, and we're seeing huge funding

545
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 10: cuts for research and funding cuts at the FDA and

546
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 10: for the food program, and you know, certainly at the

547
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 10: CDC and in Trump's twenty twenty six budget, we're seeing

548
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 10: them slashing budgets. I mean they're they're he's asking for

549
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 10: I think a fifty five percent cut to well a

550
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 10: fifty percent cut maybe to the CDC, of forty percent

551
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 10: cut to the NIH. I mean, the NIH is our

552
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 10: premier research institution doing scientific research, so it doesn't really

553
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 10: make sense to cut that by forty percent.

554
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: To unpack the year in pardons, I turned to someone

555
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: who knows the system from the inside, former DOJ pardoner

556
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: attorney Liz Oyer. Together we walked through some of Trump's

557
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,239
Speaker 1: most controversial pardons and the broader implications for democracy and

558
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: the rule of law. Let's start with the beginning of

559
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: the year, because this is a year in review in pardons,

560
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: and we have to, I think, start with Joe Biden's

561
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: preemptive January pardons, including members of his family, Hunter Biden,

562
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: doctor Anthony Fauci, Mark Milly, and the members of Congress

563
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: who served on the January sixth committee. You said that

564
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: those January pardons quote laid the groundwork for Trump's abuse

565
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: of the pardon power. Do you think that Trump that

566
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 1: some of Trump's overkill in the pardons department was the

567
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: result of these preemptive pardons, or do you think one

568
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: had anything to do with the other.

569
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 11: I think that the pardons that Biden granted on the

570
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 11: way out the door made Trump feel like he was

571
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 11: entitled to abuse the pardon power in new and unprecedented ways.

572
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 11: No president before Joe Biden has really used preemptive pardons

573
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 11: to pardon people for crimes that have not even been charged.

574
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 11: But by on his way out the door, I mean,

575
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 11: he pardoned five members of his family in addition to

576
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 11: the pardon of his son Hunter. And the appearance that

577
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 11: it creates is this idea that it's okay for the

578
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 11: president to use the pardon power for personal gain to

579
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 11: benefit his family. And I think that Trump is sort

580
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 11: of leveraging that perception of unfairness and self dealing to

581
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 11: do things that are far far worse, far worse in

582
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 11: quantity and quality than what Biden did. But he's using

583
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 11: it as a justification, and he's actually got some traction

584
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 11: with some sectors of the public in trying to rationalize

585
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 11: what he's doing in terms of what Biden did when

586
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 11: I talk about the corrupt abuses of the pardon power

587
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 11: by Donald Trump, the question that I get all the

588
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 11: time is, well, what about Biden's pardons? People will say

589
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 11: to me, you know, my mega family members. Whenever I

590
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 11: bring up the pardons, they say, well, Biden did the

591
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 11: same thing, and it's not the same thing. But to

592
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 11: make people understand that it's not the same thing, I

593
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 11: think we have to acknowledge that what Biden did was

594
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 11: very unusual, and in my opinion, it was not well advised.

595
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 11: It's certainly not something that I would have recommended that

596
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 11: he do.

597
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, you answer my question. Was it appropriate for Joe

598
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: Biden to do that? On the other hand, you know,

599
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: they were after people like Anthony Fauci and Mark Milly

600
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: and the people who served on the January sixth committee,

601
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: So you know, I think you're right. It's set the

602
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: stage perhaps for Donald Trump. But did some of these people,

603
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: in your view, deserve protecting.

604
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 11: Well, the problem with protecting them in advance is Biden's

605
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 11: basically sending the message that he doesn't trust the justice

606
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 11: system to reach the right result in these cases, and

607
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 11: that's not, in this environment a helpful message to be

608
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 11: sending to the American public. Donald Trump now is doing

609
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 11: everything in his power to bend the justice system to

610
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 11: his will. And I think the idea that Biden sort

611
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 11: of messaged at the end of his presidency that he

612
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 11: didn't believe the justice system would be good enough to

613
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 11: sort out what's right and what's wrong in these prosecutions

614
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 11: and to exonerate those who committed no crimes, made it

615
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 11: easier for Trump's to fuel this narrative that the justice

616
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 11: system really should be used however the president wants it

617
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 11: to be.

618
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: And the last one we're going to talk about is

619
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: the former president of Hondurasjan Orlando Hernandez, which really incensed

620
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people because of his history of exporting

621
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: drugs to the United States, specifically cocaine. I think, can

622
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: you talk about that? And I think the juxtaposition of

623
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: blowing up boats in the Caribbean ostensibly a foot full

624
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: of drugs headed to the United States and pardoning the

625
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: former president of Honduras just seemed so incongruous.

626
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 11: I don't think there is one single person in this country,

627
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 11: including Trump's White House spokesperson Carolin Levitt, who can can

628
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 11: incredibly reconcile the pardon of one Orlando, Orlando Hernandez, with

629
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 11: what's happening with blowing the boats out of the water

630
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 11: in the Caribbean right now, It makes absolutely no sense.

631
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 11: Hernandez was a major drug trafficker. He was a drug boss. Essentially,

632
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 11: he was running his country as a narco state, accepting

633
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 11: millions of dollars in bribes from drug traffickers, and was

634
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 11: responsible for transporting over five hundred tons of cocaine into

635
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 11: the United States. So the idea that Donald Trump is

636
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 11: giving him a full pardon, he was sentenced by the

637
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 11: way to forty five years in prison, and he'd only

638
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 11: served about a year of that sentence. The idea that

639
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 11: he's out of prison and getting a full pardon while

640
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 11: Trump is blowing boats out of the water supposedly to

641
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 11: stop drugs from coming into the United States, It truly

642
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 11: is irreconcilable. And we have not heard any plausibly credible

643
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 11: explanation from anyone in the White House about why he

644
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 11: did that.

645
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: If you're a woman navigating life transitions like pregnant see infertility, parenthood, menopause,

646
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: or caring for aging parents, connecting with a licensed therapist

647
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Speaker 1: is a great way to stay centered and find support.

648
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,840
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649
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: life chapters that come standard with being female. Talkspace therapists

650
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,040
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651
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652
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Speaker 1: therapy is covered by many insurance plans, and most insured

653
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: members pay a fifteen dollars copay often less. No insurance,

654
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: no problem. Now get eighty five dollars off of your

655
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: first month with the promo code Katie when you go

656
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match with a licensed

657
00:38:47,040 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Jessica Valente

658
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: is a writer, activist, and the author of the sub

659
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: stack Abortion every Day. We talked about the rollback of

660
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: reproductive rights in this country and the very real, chilling

661
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: consequences women are already facing. Three years after Dodd, we're

662
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: seeing what many people are describing as the tale of

663
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: two countries. Bloom states expanding access to abortion, red states

664
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: finding new ways to restrict it. So how would you

665
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: describe the state of reproductive rights in this country right now?

666
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 6: It's a hard question because there's so much to talk about,

667
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 6: but I think the most important thing to know is that,

668
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 6: you know, we're a little over three years out since

669
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 6: the end of Robi Wade. The abortion rate hasn't gone

670
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 6: down at all, zero percent. In fact, the number of

671
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 6: abortions is going up. What has increased, though, is suffering

672
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 6: maternal mortality, pregnancy complications like sepsis, infant mortality, right, And

673
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 6: so I think for me that is always the biggest

674
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 6: takeaway that despite all of the harm that these laws

675
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 6: are causing, they're not even doing what they spent fifty

676
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 6: years planning to do, which is reduce the abortion rate.

677
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: And I think what we're.

678
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 6: Seeing from conservatives is a lot of pushback to try

679
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 6: to fix their pr because of that problem. Everything that

680
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 6: they're doing right now is about abortion pills, because abortion

681
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 6: pills are the primary way that people are able to

682
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 6: get care in spite of state bands. And so I'm

683
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 6: just trying to track as closely as I can what

684
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 6: those attacks look like, the ways that we can defend

685
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 6: ourselves from them, and the ways that we can try

686
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 6: at least a little bit to reduce some of that

687
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 6: suffering that these laws are causing.

688
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: We've also seen reports of women being investigated or prosecuted,

689
00:40:54,880 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: even prosecuted after miscarriages or pregnancy complications. Can you describe

690
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: the criminalization of pregnancy that we're seeing and who is

691
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: the most vulnerable.

692
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 6: Yeah. What's incredible about this is that this is the

693
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 6: one thing that Republicans and anti abortion activists said for

694
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 6: years that they would never do. That, they never wanted

695
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 6: to punish women, they never wanted to arrest women. And

696
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 6: we warned for just as many years that that's exactly

697
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 6: what was going to happen if you criminalize abortion, if

698
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 6: you make something illegal, people will be criminalized. And that's

699
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 6: what we're seeing, a lot of the stories that we're covering,

700
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 6: as you said, are miscarriage patients. Generally, what happens and

701
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 6: it's sort of a depressing way to come about a story.

702
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 6: But I'll see a headline in a local newspaper that

703
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 6: says an infant was dumped in a dumpster, an infant

704
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 6: was trashed, a woman was arrested for putting her infant

705
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 6: in the dumpster. We go and we get the police records,

706
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 6: and inevitably it is a woman who had a miscarriage

707
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 6: at fifteen or sixteen weeks who did.

708
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: What you're supposed to do when you have a miscarriage.

709
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 6: You flush, you throw the pregnancy remains away, very very normal, right,

710
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 6: And police decide to arrest them instead because in these

711
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 6: states the fetus has personhood, and so they're charging them

712
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 6: with crimes like abuse of a corpse or failure to

713
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 6: report a death right. They're not going after them for abortion.

714
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 6: They're finding a way around that and charging them with

715
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 6: seemingly unrelated crimes. I think for so long we've been

716
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 6: sort of tricked into believing that the country is split

717
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 6: on abortion.

718
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: It's not.

719
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 6: We're talking about a tiny minority of you know, extremist

720
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 6: legislators of powerful funders who are behind this effort to

721
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 6: impose their will on the vast majority of Americans who

722
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 6: do not want these bands. And so it is part

723
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 6: of this broader conservative movement that's an acting project twenty

724
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 6: twenty five. And I've got to say, one of the

725
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 6: things that I'm most worried about, I'm not just worried

726
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 6: about meth persona and abortion medication. I'm worried about birth

727
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 6: control because this is something that they have been making

728
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 6: headway on. They have been using the same shipping away

729
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 6: approach that they did with abortion to make birth control

730
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 6: less and less available. They've defunded all, you know, planned parenthood,

731
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 6: They've defunded reproductive healthcare clinics. They're giving lots of taxpayer

732
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 6: dollars and state funding to crisis pregnancy centers, saying that

733
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 6: crisis pregnancy centers can replace those clinics, even though these

734
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 6: are not real medical clinics and they can't and won't

735
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 6: prescribe birth control. And so that is the other thing

736
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 6: that I'm really trying to pay close attention to that

737
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 6: I don't think we're talking about enough.

738
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: And to what end is this part of projecting twenty

739
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: twenty five's efforts to get women to have more babies,

740
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: to have more white Christian nationalist babies. Yes, one hundred percent,

741
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: hundred percent, it's all.

742
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 6: I don't think that you can separate the attacks on

743
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 6: reproductive rights, the attacks on abortion rights and birth control,

744
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 6: from this desire to get women out of the public sphere,

745
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 6: to force them back into the home, to push them

746
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 6: in the domestic sphere.

747
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: It's the same reason that they that same.

748
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 6: Group of powerful people are pushing this you know, online

749
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 6: tradwife conservative agenda that we're seeing everywhere. It's the same

750
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 6: reason they're seeding disinformation about birth control. It's the same

751
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 6: reason they're paying health influencers to say that birth control

752
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 6: is dangerous and bad for you. You know, any young

753
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 6: woman who spends any amount of time on a social

754
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 6: media site, I'm sure has come across a video saying

755
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 6: that you'll feel better about yourself if you don't take

756
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 6: birth control.

757
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: It's all connected. It's been a volatile year in media,

758
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: to say the least, So I spoke with Puck co

759
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: founder John Kelly to break it all down, from the

760
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: wave of mergers and megadeals reshaping Hollywood and journalism to

761
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: the seismic shift in the media landscape. This is my friend,

762
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: John Kelly. John is the co founder and editor in

763
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: chief of Puck, which is a really great publication, a

764
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: digital publication that covers sort of the intersection of media, technology,

765
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: public policy, increasingly broadening its aperture to include things like

766
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: arts and culture and foreign affairs. How's that? Am I

767
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: good pr person? John? What I wanted to really go

768
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: over with John Kelly everyone is the year in media,

769
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: because it's really been a shit show for media this

770
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: year in so many ways. And I titled this conversation

771
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: the Year Media Died. I think that was sort of

772
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: being facetious, But it has not been a particularly good

773
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: year for the press and the idea of it being

774
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: a free press. And I'm not talking about Barry Weiss's substack,

775
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: which we'll discuss in a moment, but overall, how would

776
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: you describe the year for media organizations everywhere? Understanding John,

777
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: by the way, the very term media has been redefined.

778
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: I certainly understand your cynicism when I zoom out and

779
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 3: look at the industry, though, I think that we're in

780
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: this very uncomfortable in between phase between the sort of

781
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: unbundling of the old world in various industries and a

782
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: rebundling companies like mine and companies like subside and companies

783
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: like Kittie Kirk Media. I'll play a role in that. Obviously,

784
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: when Trump retook the White House, we knew that there

785
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: were going to be new rules. I think you're all

786
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: probably surprised that there'd be some sort of like you know,

787
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: compromise style payouts that were required to settle litigation or

788
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: to get deals done. And we're ending the year with

789
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 3: what is going to be the largest M and a

790
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 3: deal of the year. Whichever way Warner Brothers Discovery goes

791
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 3: to the Ellisons or Netflix, this looks like it's gonna

792
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 3: be one hundred billion dollar maybe plus deal. But I'm

793
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 3: optimistic that there are enough green shoots here that we're

794
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 3: gonna be able to sort of see what this industry

795
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 3: looks like in the next couple of years. But there's

796
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 3: no doubt that you're questioning, right, it's messy now. It's

797
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 3: hard to reach as many people as it used to be.

798
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 3: There is less regulation, and there are a lot more

799
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 3: bad actors in the system.

800
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the Warner Brothers stuff, because you know,

801
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: many people are bemoaning this consolidation, John saying it's back

802
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: for creatives. It's bad for the economy of show business

803
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: if you will, that there are going to be fewer

804
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: buyers and it's actually going to really hurt the industry.

805
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: What's your take on that.

806
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 3: I think it's inarguable. Either way this goes, there's going

807
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: to be a significant amount of trauma. Right. There are

808
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 3: two options here. One is that the Ellison's sort of

809
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 3: Elison family trust buys this company whole, which means the

810
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 3: movie studio Hboho ACX and this legacy cable business for

811
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 3: about thirty bucks or so a share, which is you know,

812
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 3: NELLI one hundred billion dollars all in, maybe just more

813
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 3: than that I'm doing back at the envelopmap. The alternative

814
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 3: is that Netflix just buys the studios streaming business, and

815
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 3: the cable business kind of goes out to see as

816
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 3: its own public company, similar to what NBCU did with

817
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 3: Verse Ender or sand which is now the home to

818
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: like MS now and others. So in these scenarios, there's

819
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 3: gonna be a lot of trauma. It's not like that

820
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 3: the Elsons would buy this to just let this operate

821
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: as is. And I think the Ellisons have the the

822
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 3: the knock among the creative community on there for their

823
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 3: bid is that it would probably take what is five

824
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 3: legacy studios down to four, right, but you'd see Werner

825
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 3: Brothers Studio and Paramount Studio effectively mergered cin you know,

826
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: synergized pro format. There'd be a loss of jobs and

827
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 3: for creatives, your places to sell things, you know, if

828
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 3: your places to sell shows, your places to sell movie ideas.

829
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: And I understand the tragedy, and that tragedy on the

830
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 3: Netflix side, is there is a real fear that the

831
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 3: leadership of that company will just honor these theatrical contracts

832
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 3: until they, you know, to the point that they have to,

833
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 3: and then beyond that they'll sort of bleed the theatrical community,

834
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:33,240
Speaker 3: and which no one wants to see. I understand both

835
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: sides of this, but I also I think take us

836
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 3: a slightly less sentimental view. I started my career as

837
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 3: renocating the magazine business, where we saw just extraordinary and

838
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: unending change, and we realized that you couldn't blame a

839
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 3: person for what was happening. It wasn't like it was

840
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: the new house's fault or the hearst's fault or the

841
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 3: management of timing. This was the behavior of people, you know,

842
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 3: speaking for themselves, and hollywoo. It is a historic business.

843
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 3: It is going to change. I have young kids. They're

844
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: watching everything on YouTube. I don't see a world and

845
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 3: wait in which they watch as many multi hour feature

846
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 3: films as we did when we were kids. The business

847
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: of entertainment is changing, and whichever way this goes is

848
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: going to be a huge joelt. But I just don't

849
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 3: think there's any other alternatives.

850
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: Scan Dahal, that's one way of describing twenty twenty five

851
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: because there were so many of them. Fortunately for us,

852
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,959
Speaker 1: I have a modern day Dorothy Parker on speed dial,

853
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: the one and only Tina Brown. It's been Halloween every day,

854
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: she told me. So we covered it all, the royal

855
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: family drama, the Epstein culprits and survivors, Gallaine Maxwell's strange upbringing,

856
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: and the transformation of storied media brands to Trump propaganda arms.

857
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: It has kind of been the year from hell, hasn't it.

858
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 12: It totally has. It's been Halloween every day. I mean,

859
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 12: you just sort of open your eyes with the mounting

860
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 12: dread begins, like what are we going to see now?

861
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 12: And we know, we know, we all went through that

862
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 12: first time that Trump was president, actually, but this time

863
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 12: it's just been so many a confluence of so many things.

864
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 8: You know.

865
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: It's it's politics, it's it's crime.

866
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 12: It's it's you know, the menace of kind of the

867
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 12: rising terror of like jobs disappearing from AI. It's it's

868
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 12: it's scandals every way you look.

869
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's just been a monster of a year. No, really,

870
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: it's really hard to keep up and to process all

871
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: these stories. And of course there's a method to their madness.

872
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: This is by design, don't you think? Definitely?

873
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 12: Well, I mean I was thinking actually yesterday that that

874
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 12: even on the Epstein case works, which has really been

875
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 12: the stickiest scandal. I mean, I have all the scandald

876
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 12: scandals that have kind of been in on the Epstein

877
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 12: one is the one that has just like been this adhesive,

878
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 12: you know, thing that just refuses to go away. Actually,

879
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 12: the decision, now, you know, to release all the emails

880
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 12: has actually kind of achieved something that I don't even

881
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 12: know that Trump fully wanted, but it's happened just as

882
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 12: he always plans. We've been overwhelmed, so suddenly you get

883
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 12: this huge trove of stuff that just comes at you,

884
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 12: and most of it is just complete, sort of just

885
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 12: the garbage of somebody's email box. So I mean, now

886
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 12: that is becoming just sort of lost in the drafts.

887
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: Can you imagine any world in which Donald Trump would

888
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: pardon Glen Maxwell or do you think now that the

889
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: Epstein files are coming out, that he's he's better off

890
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: with her remaining in prison.

891
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 12: Well, I think I think he could pardon her, actually,

892
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 12: because I think that on his way out, I don't

893
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 12: think he's going to care.

894
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: Why would he?

895
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 12: You know, I don't think that Donald Trump is going

896
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 12: to sit there thinking my legacy with Magar or whatever.

897
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 12: And I think that once he's done, he's done. I

898
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 12: don't think that, you know, he'll ever think about Maga again.

899
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 12: I mean, he's been amassing his own war chest, his

900
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 12: huge grift that he's been doing, you know that he's

901
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 12: been assembling his horde of gold. And I think on

902
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 12: the way out, he'll pardon whoever he feels like pardoning.

903
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 12: And it could be that he decides that Jelaine has

904
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 12: had enough and that he wants to partner. It could

905
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 12: be that somebody in his circle lobbits to partner her,

906
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 12: you know, because as we're saying, I mean, I think

907
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 12: it was Roger Stone that got him to pardon this

908
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 12: Hon Durham.

909
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 1: Right drug dealer president. Yeah.

910
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 12: I mean it's like it's like for him, this pardon

911
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 12: power is like getting someone into a club or whatever.

912
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 12: It's sure, you know I'll do that for you. You

913
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 12: know you'll owe me, or I'm doing that because I

914
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 12: owe you. I think that is the way he operates.

915
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 12: So you know, the jury is out on whether she'll

916
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 12: get out. I think she might. I think he might

917
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 12: think that better that she really in his debt for

918
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 12: that then is they're perhaps looking for things to sell,

919
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 12: as it were, to the next administration. So my guess

920
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 12: is yes, if you ask me now, I would say yes,

921
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 12: your partner.

922
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 1: While we're on the subject of the royals, I can't

923
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: not ask you about the continued chili relationship between Harry

924
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: and William and if you think that is ever going

925
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: to be mended. I mean I read stuff about it

926
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: all the time, if you know, pops up, which shows

927
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: you I'm clicking on too many royal stories. But you know,

928
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: I never know quite what to believe, what the situation is.

929
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: Where do you see that relationship as it stands right now?

930
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: And then I want to ask you about Megan Markle,

931
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: But first that I mean it's very frosty.

932
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 12: I mean, I you know, if you think about it

933
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 12: this way, I mean, all through that childhood they had

934
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 12: this great bond which was only they knew how awful

935
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 12: it was essentially to be in the royal cage, having

936
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 12: gone through the Dianact tragedy, the appalling after Martha, the

937
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 12: Diana tragedy, the you know, hounded and by the press

938
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 12: and every butler and servant writing a book and all

939
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 12: of that. So what they had was a bond, which

940
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 12: is like I can trust you, you can trust me.

941
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 12: And then of all people to betray William, of all

942
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 12: the people to know to write a book that was

943
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 12: like full of horribly painful revelation, it.

944
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 4: Was Harry, you know.

945
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 12: I mean, I think for William it was like just

946
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 12: a taboo for him that that he broke that I

947
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 12: think he really shattered him. Actually, I think he found

948
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 12: it a very shatteringly personally painful thing that he went through.

949
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: And you know, on.

950
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 12: Top of everything else of just sort of Harry just

951
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 12: kind of like splitting off to the sunshine and all

952
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 12: the rest of it. I mean, he's just I think

953
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 12: for William it's just too much, you know, to damn.

954
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 12: And whether or not he will ever sort of look

955
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 12: back and say, well, let buy God's big GUIDs, I

956
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 12: don't know.

957
00:55:58,040 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: I mean, William is quite a he's.

958
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 8: A very very.

959
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,879
Speaker 12: By his book guy. Yeah, he's a by the book guy.

960
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 12: You know, he's not a guy who's he's by the book.

961
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 12: He doesn't forgive easily. If you get on the wrong

962
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 12: side of William, you can expect to stay there, you know,

963
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 12: is what I hear. And so I don't know. I

964
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 12: think that I think Harry just wants to mend the

965
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 12: fence with his father. I think he's kind of given

966
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 12: up on his brother. But and what about that. Do

967
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 12: you see that happening? I do actually in the personal sense,

968
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 12: But I don't really see it happening in the sense

969
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 12: that that that that his father will turn around and say, now,

970
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 12: come welcome back and start doing all these royal appearances.

971
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 12: I think his father cares too much about the monarchy himself.

972
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 12: He's he's he's not a mara of Harry's abandonment of

973
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 12: his duty.

974
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 7: You know.

975
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 12: I think he feels I think he'll always love him

976
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 12: as a son. But I think that he cares enough

977
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,959
Speaker 12: about the institution to think it's going to go wrong,

978
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 12: you know. Again, so I would be very surprised if

979
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 12: he does come back into the fold in that sense.

980
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 1: What do you think of sort of not only CBS

981
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 1: but ABC also and and putting jim you know, Jimmy

982
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: Kimmel off the air for a period of time and

983
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: paying Trump and somebody said, where's all this? Where are

984
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: these millions of dollars going? I mean, Is it to

985
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: the Trump Library, Is it to the east you know

986
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: this ballroom?

987
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 12: Who knows? I think it's I think I think it's

988
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 12: a grotesque development. I think good because I think it's disgusting.

989
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 12: I think it's disgusting. I think what you're seeing is

990
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 12: naked shakedowns. And to my absolute disgust, media bosses who

991
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 12: should know far better and have some i mean respect

992
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 12: for journalistic ethic as it were really proving they have.

993
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 12: They don't care at all. They're proving that this is

994
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 12: about paying off again. It's like, give him a check.

995
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 12: It's a rounding era as far as we're concerned, I mean,

996
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 12: you know, as far as the mighty Disney Company is concerned.

997
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 12: I mean, ABC is of so little importance compared to

998
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 12: their other massive concerns. And it's the same with CBS.

999
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 12: I mean that the Ellisons want to get hold of paramount.

1000
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 12: I mean it's nothing to them, so there's no fight,

1001
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 12: and journalism is just thrown out of the bus. And

1002
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 12: the worst aspect of this stuff that's happening now, you know,

1003
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 12: it's often called lawfare, where you're committing sort of like

1004
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 12: threats and acts of warfare through the threats of legal action,

1005
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 12: which is not just about oh, we may lose, it's

1006
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 12: just about the expense. I mean, the amount of money

1007
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 12: that you can rack up in making somebody defend these lawsuits.

1008
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 12: It's making these mighty journalistic companies very very timid. You know,

1009
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 12: it's making the lawyers run all over the companies and

1010
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 12: say you can't publish that, don't publish that. We don't

1011
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 12: want to get right. And it's not just in TV,

1012
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 12: it's publishing houses, magazine companies, you know, audio companies. They're

1013
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 12: all terrified of any kind of controversy that's going to

1014
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 12: get Trump's attention because they know it means they're going

1015
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 12: to have to pay up. And if they don't pay up,

1016
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 12: they'll be trashed, they'll be be abused, they'll find themselves

1017
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 12: in some hideous social media you know situation, they'll get fired.

1018
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 12: I mean, this is a very dangerous development just for

1019
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 12: journalism because you know, we're we're becoming cold.

1020
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: What's like state run television. I mean it's insane. And

1021
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: do you think that these concessions and these pay to

1022
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: play type things, and we want to do this business deal,

1023
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: so we're going to pay you and we're not going

1024
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: to criticize you because we don't want you to f

1025
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: up our business deals. Do you think it's going to

1026
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: make these entities even less relevant than they're already becoming

1027
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: because they won't really stand for anything. Absolutely no.

1028
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 12: I think that they are putting on a suicide vest

1029
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 12: if they if in a long term, if they capitulate

1030
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 12: like this, absolutely they will weaken the institutions. They will

1031
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 12: make people legitimately feel they can't be trusted because they're

1032
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 12: not asking the tough questions, or they're you know, they're

1033
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 12: too fearful to publish or to put something on the air.

1034
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 12: I think there it's a disastrously self destructive mood. But

1035
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 12: I'm just baffled at the cravenness that's kind of crept

1036
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 12: into the psyche.

1037
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: It seems of great institutions. Thanks for listening everyone. If

1038
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: you have a question for me, a subject you want

1039
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts

1040
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send

1041
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear

1042
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and

1043
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: Katie Kiric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kirk,

1044
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 1: and Courtney Litz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and

1045
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: our producers are Adriana Fazio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller

1046
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1047
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1048
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1049
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1050
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,439
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1051
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Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1052
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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's Katiekuric.

1053
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: You know I'm always on the go between running my

1054
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news,

1055
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1056
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