WEBVTT - It Could Happen 89 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.239 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.800 Okay. Hello everyone, It's me James today and I'm joined 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.840 by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.599 trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.960 indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:47.199 more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.240 declaration that they recently released about the state of the 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.880 Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:55.640 to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.520 could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that 0:00:58.560 --> 0:00:59.959 you think listeners should know, that would be one. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:01.280 Hello. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.720 My name is Kirby Muldeau. My ancestral name is Hopwellasa. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:13.320 I am from the jimsand people in what is now 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:19.320 known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is Jim Shann, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:25.479 my father is Gigxan, and I am from wilp we Get, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.760 which is the house of the Night Drummer from the 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:35.720 Fireweed Plan. I am also an independent consultant and contractor 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.240 and I look forward to our discussion today. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:40.720 Thank you, Thank you. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:41.760 Hi. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:46.720 I am Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:51.440 Cake Woody of the Brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox, 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:52.800 sanw Kun. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:56.280 And I have. 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:02.520 Lived in Metla Catla my whole life of seventy five years. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:06.480 And we're connected to the Unuch River through my grandmother 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:14.520 and she was born at Cape Fox. And we've been 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.079 on the Unich River ever since I was big enough 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.639 to go with my older brother and so I've been 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:28.040 up there since like nineteen sixty wow. And my brothers 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.400 was up to close to twenty years before that. So, 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.240 but our family has always been on the Unich River 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.520 to harvest. Had the fish camp up there and and 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.520 we'd fish the uligans, bring the uligans home to the 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:52.000 to the people, and the catch can Saxsmon Metal Catline. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.320 Then people would send them out to the west coast, 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:59.240 so we're very connected. We go up to the Unich 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.560 in the spring for ooligan and the fall for hunting. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.240 Now they used to do the salmon up on the 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.600 river with the fish camp. I served on our community 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.880 council for from two thousand and two, but I think 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:21.200 twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal rights 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:25.200 representative for the community and I report back to our 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.960 council after each of our meetings. 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.840 Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:32.600 induce yourself. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.120 Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:42.480 of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.200 formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:52.800 sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to you know, a 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:58.720 huge amount of mind development and further potential mind development 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.440 going on in the transound watersheds that drain from British 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.800 Columbia to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.760 I'm an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:20.400 their own environments and their food security through science. And yeah, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.560 I'm looking forward to this discussion as well. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.120 Yeah, that's a fantastic set for all of you, Thank 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.039 you very much. So I think we should begin because 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:35.640 maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.120 of the emergency with salmon populations and so preps. We 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.960 could start up by explaining like how it was. It 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.479 seems like Louis, you have a lot of experience there, 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.000 and then what has caused things to be at a 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.080 situation they're at now. Would that be a good way 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:53.720 to go about it. 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:55.719 Yes, that would be a good way. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.760 Where we are at now on the salmon is that 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.719 Bruce Jack Mine started on the river and none of 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.720 us knew about it until way late summers around the 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:19.280 mid nineties, nineteen nineties and by two thousand, especially in 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.440 the spring when we'd be up there, that oligans were 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.160 starting to disappear, and then then the fall moose hunting, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:33.960 the salmon were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.720 in moose now where the river along the river bank 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.039 would be full of the parts of the fish that 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.560 bears didn't eat, there would be so many bears in 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.200 fish and now you don't smell any of that. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.000 But and it's really affected the king salmon. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:57.359 They completely disappeared for at least six years that my 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.919 son and I noticed they spawn up on the river there, 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.960 and as we always pay attention, we check on the 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:12.599 main spawning stream of Kingsbury where they spawn. And the 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.599 last three years we've been starting to see some come back, 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:21.000 and that bruce jack mine which fawned out later. They 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.480 were putting their tailings into a lake up on the 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.479 mountain there, and then you know, as they filled it 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.680 up and the rain filled it up, the overflow came 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.880 down into the river. And the river is so shallow, 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.960 it's only a few inches deep, and it's it's not 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.920 very wide. It's it's the smallest river out of the 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:46.640 Stakeen and the Takou there, and so any pollution in 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.559 that river will completely kill it off. The salmon runs 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.680 their way down from what we've seen through the years. 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.200 But you know, it's also the wildlife that's disappearing with it, because. 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:00.280 There's the feet isn't there. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.560 There's not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:05.440 and sea lions. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.640 It's effecting on the food chain everything. 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.440 Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.880 You're part of the world, just packcrafting and hiking and things, 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:23.320 and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place, but 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.560 it's a very like a fragile one too. As you've 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.280 explained that these mines can very quickly have this effect 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:33.080 that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.080 bit of the role that salmon play not just in 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.360 the in the provision of food for the for the 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.120 animal life of the area, but also like the role 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.960 they played traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people. 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:53.080 Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.280 sock day as we can and then then king salmon 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.560 then a lot of it we'll fish and get during 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.320 the winter to eat, you know, and just get them 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.120 fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer. 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.080 But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.000 pantry and see we've lived the same life as I 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.760 grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:21.640 for us. We've taught our children the same way how. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:28.640 To harvest and take care of the fish. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:34.280 Back in the fifties, when his little kid in Mettle, 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.640 cat Alaska, hardly anyone if. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.559 They even had a refrigerator. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.440 They didn't have freezers, so they had to smoke the 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.200 fish really hard, and they put them in those things. 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:52.240 They're like four gallon coffee cans too, with newspaper on 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.320 the bottom and on top. Then they would keep through 0:08:55.320 --> 0:09:00.480 the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't get moldy. So that was 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.480 the the main staple for the for the whole year. 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.600 Is it the situation now that like people just can't 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.559 rely on salmon as a staple food because of the 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.400 mining tailings reducing the population. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.360 Yeah, without any hardy, any king salmon coming in. There's 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.560 you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.880 they even in Ketchcan they've closed the King salmon derby 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:27.960 for I think it's into its fourth year now. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.240 So it's just. 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:38.960 That that other big mine goes in the river will 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.960 be destroyed and it's going to flow all the way 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.840 out into into the ocean here into Clarence Straits and 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.080 Dicks and Entrance. There's been no avoiding it. It's got 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.120 nowhere else to go with that comes straight out to 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.760 the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:56.800 Keb. 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.520 I know you're you're not quite in exactly the same place, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.360 but can you explain the situation with the salmon population 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:04.000 where you are. 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.000 Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.520 I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:18.800 the on the in the Skina River watershed, and over 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.719 the past probably thirty or forty years, we've seen an 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:31.760 extreme decline in salmon, specifically sake and king salmon as 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.840 you guys call it. We call them spring salmon over here. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:43.280 But we've seen an extreme decline in returns. And you know, 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:47.200 we've we've stopped a lot of our commercial fisheries and 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:54.160 our food fisheries until which time we feel that the 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.160 the returns are sufficient enough so that we can continue 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.959 to harvest. So we've got the Taii Test Fishery at 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.800 the mouth of the Schena, and they do a count 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:13.400 every year throughout, starting in the spring and throughout most 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.280 of the summer. They do a test fishery and they 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:22.079 estimate the amount of salmon that are returning. And we 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.720 do not fish, as I said, commercially or for food 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.120 until we feel that the numbers are sufficient that have 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:36.040 gone past that fishery. There are many obstacles that face 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:44.560 salmon today, most of which are a result of human activity. Logging, mining, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:50.160 commercial fishing, oil and gas, and we all have to 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.800 take a little bit of responsibility for that because we 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:58.880 all enjoy those resources and we use them. And I've 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.000 always said to people that we can't mine our way 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.280 out of this global warming and climate change. We have 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:13.280 to learn how to we have to learn how to 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:19.520 use less. And as I said, you know, mining, obviously 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.600 it's it's a it's a big concern, but there's also logging, 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:28.679 there's oil and gas, as well as commercial fishery. You know, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.920 there's a lot of things that happen out in open 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.840 waters in the North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily. 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.319 You know. They there's a fishery right now. 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:52.840 I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.560 that is targeting. 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:56.439 Pink salmon. 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:03.520 But by our estimation and by estimations from Alaska fisheries, 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:09.440 they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.800 that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.600 and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch. 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.880 We're not asking this fishery to stop, We're asking this 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.080 fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.640 that they better target the pink salmon. So right now 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.920 they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:39.480 what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:45.080 We're asking them to move inside so that skin and 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:51.800 sawkey can go past this fishery. And right now we 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.240 are just barely making our escapement every year that make 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:01.480 it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And so, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.400 you know, there's a lot of different ways we can 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:13.160 address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's some 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.320 low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things that 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.600 are going to take a lot of time to enforce. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.680 But I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:29.680 to work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance. 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:35.600 Salmon are very resilient. They're a keystone species, and they're 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.480 a good indicator of the health of the environment and 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.040 surrounding areas as well as the water. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.440 Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you, and 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.640 preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:52.360 the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.760 how it is that I'm on the Facebook because Louis 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.680 was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.760 in one case, with these certainly like these other practices, right, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.600 some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.840 others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:15.640 forestry with the nations in question here, the people who's 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.400 ancestral and current homeland this is happening on not consulted 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.640 or was there insufficient explanation of the consequences when these 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.280 with these mines and forestry operations were opened. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.960 Certainly, especially early on, you know, to this day and 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.560 to this day, the right of free entry, which means 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.520 somebody could be setting pretty much anywhere in the world, 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.280 get on the internet and claim a mine claim without 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.000 any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.000 by swiping a credit card. 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.720 Oh well, so there's no. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:55.080 Even requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on, 0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.000 the mining companies, you know, they do a investor press 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.080 here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.120 and this and that, and then they attempt to come 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:11.840 into the communities with that presentation, and what they might 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:18.840 call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.600 It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:30.440 that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.920 what consultation does happen is incredibly inadequate. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:37.280 To make matters. 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.800 Worse, the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:47.480 don't have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.240 is being done, though we're not starting from zero here. 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.880 First nations out on the land through landguardian programs and 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.920 more doing great work. Southeast tribes monitoring. You know, they're 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.720 ecosystems and food security and fish consumption and all that 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:13.200 great science and information, but we do need to incorporate one. 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:18.000 We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.080 organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.760 middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.800 say move the border, we basically have to erase it. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.119 And we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:41.440 Climate change is having a huge impact the chinook or 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.240 the king salmon or the spring salmon. They're the largest, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.680 so they have the largest egg, they have the less 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.880 surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.280 kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem, 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.040 you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:03.040 your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean. Right, we're right, 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.600 it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.280 Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:16.120 it across the board. And it's unfortunate because here, especially 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.920 right now in southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:25.000 Prior to European contact, there was probably five times the 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.920 population living here than there is now. You look at 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:32.000 maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.600 there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.160 do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.440 effective you don't really call it in management, but in 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:48.679 engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.800 on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:57.000 have the solution and people who have within their oral 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.919 history the stories of my grading due to climate change, 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.399 of adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.320 the history or you know, the current oral history. And 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.160 so when we're looking when we say unify here, there's 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:17.679 a great voice and indigenous people too if there is, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.800 and it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.159 to say that because it's an inherently extractive down to 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:30.400 the last profitable dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:36.560 reducible constantly as it operates, and now it's being used 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.640 to justify climate change. Adjusting to climate change is now 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:46.760 being used to justify more mining, which again, as usual, 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.479 is going to fall on the backs of the local 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.159 people and communities and indigenous people. 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.160 Yeah, it's shocking. The similar to issues that we see 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.040 where I live, which is at the other end of 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.840 the United States too, on its southern border, where the 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.240 Colorado River is a binational river, right, which is managed 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.760 by two countries kind of in aggressive competition, and we're 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:11.880 seeing the same thing here at the. 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:12.960 Justification Front Staates. 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.640 Yes, yeah, yea, yes, yes, and all of them have competing. 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.399 I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.879 have paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.720 river ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.200 the US for fifteen years. It is remarkable and I 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.639 can't imagine what it's like over seventy five years, and 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.240 the same thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.760 of very damaging lithium mining rights and then being told 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.879 that this is a solution to climate change and whilst 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:48.840 also destroying these ecosystems. If people think it's just an 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:50.880 issue that affects one group of people in one group 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.439 of the part of the world, it's not. It's it's 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.040 very universal. And that's just in the United States. We 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.760 see the same thing places I've traveled for work in 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:03.560 East Africa, South America. I wonder then if we could 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.439 talk about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:12.240 comes to addressing I think we began addressing that in 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.160 Guy's comment very well, but perhaps one thing we could 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:19.399 talk about when we talk about that is I think 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:26.080 when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.520 people will use the term like frontier or wilderness a lot, right, 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.560 which erases the fact that, as Guy mentioned and both 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.440 of you have shared with us, that people have been 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.560 living there for tens of thousands of years in a 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:45.840 way that was sustainable, right, Like, these weren't places without 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.760 human beings, It wasn't empty land, and it was just 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.359 land that wasn't inhabited by people of European ancestry, and 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.479 so when we talk about how to go forward with 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.320 this land, why it's important to listen to the people 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.600 who have always been there, you said, A good framework. 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.840 All we have is our stories and how how we 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.240 grew up with the old folks. 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.760 And we're lucky to have a rowboat and. 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.879 Pair of oars back in back in the fifties, still 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.919 late fifties, some of the people started being able to 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.760 get a little three horse Johnson something like that. 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.119 And that was a lot of power. But we also 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:28.320 the glaciers have. 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.720 Melted away up on the Unich River there, so that 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.680 really affects affecting the amount of water flowing. The level 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.800 of the water very important to a lot of us. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.960 Yet to live live the way of life that we've 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:42.720 always lived. 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.480 Yeah, all the testimony that I have. 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.760 Done as not serious because I don't have a college 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:52.800 education like that. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:59.000 It's just that's that's what they want. I mean, the 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:01.240 people they learn from school books. 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.080 Now, but they've never lived a life and been on 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:10.080 all these different areas, the beaches, you know, and we 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:13.480 have all our seasons. Every season, we have something to 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:18.119 look forward to it like right after I'll start with 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:24.679 the spring on the uligans, and and then seaweed and 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.879 king salmone is a big, big thing to go after. 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:32.640 And then we have you know, the summer and then 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:33.480 then to fall. 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:35.120 Yeah. 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:40.920 Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:47.800 or harvesting all the time we our our children that 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.399 we've we have they all know how to do it, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:57.400 where to go. So we've been continued doing in our 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:03.520 teaching on our our side, or just they don't want 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.560 to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been, 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.639 you know, been to a lot of meetings and talked 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.760 about a lot of this stuff here, and it's just 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.080 it's going to be a shame if we just keep 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:21.080 losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:24.639 getting a lot less and a commercial fishing in my 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:28.159 whole life. And and then later as the kids got older, 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.760 we went into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:37.720 you know, we would get loads after loads through the 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:42.520 seventies into the eighties in nineties, and then pretty soon 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.560 you could see the Sainters are coming in with less 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:50.880 and less fish and just ulligan alone and been fifteen 0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:53.359 years up there for the Ouligan in the spring and 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:56.639 get out of school for a little while and to 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.960 go up the river ours from Metal Catalan. The last 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.200 got to up to the Unique River a little over 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:05.920 one hundred miles, so we have a two hundred mile 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:08.760 round trip to get up there and back. And there's 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.639 no safe harbor there. It's wide open to the weather. 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:16.400 So you have to really best to learn from somebody 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:21.320 who's been up there a few times, and you know, 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.119 they know where you can maybe duck out of for 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:29.800 a safe spot and easy to get hurt on the 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:31.360 river because they're so shallow. 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:34.120 Yeah, we lost the fifteen. 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:36.240 Years on the river, that's what it was due to 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.960 weak runs and they disappeared for a while. They were 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:45.200 going up to other streams to get clean water, even 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.760 on like I'll reveal a good gato on Ketchgan Island. 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:54.040 They went up there one year and there was really 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:57.320 good run. But then they'll go through Beam Canal and 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:00.639 the other streams when they have to. Oh, you know, 0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:04.720 they're pretty smart. They don't have to go back to 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:08.120 the same river all the time. We'd have to go 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:11.520 through the canal and check the other places where they 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:16.119 might go up, but with the salmon, they need that 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.120 clean river because they won't go up any other river, 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:26.960 and their numbers really really have dropped. Used to see 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:30.640 king salmon, you know, probably as far as I could reach, 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.880 which is about six feet and spawners in the river, 0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:41.520 and three years ago they were maybe long as one arm. 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:44.679 I couldn't find any real big ones in there. But 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:46.760 it was good to see some of them coming back. 0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:54.280 But that won't last long things continue to go the 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:55.080 way they are. 0:26:56.080 --> 0:27:00.680 Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah, 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:06.800 this these changes you've seen. I suppose so preps you 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:10.320 could explain to us, like there's this emergency declaration that's 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:15.040 been made, right, and we've heard and Louis explain very eloquently, 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:20.400 how this, how he's seen this decay over his life, 0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:25.720 and how can like accepting this leadership? Right, there's this 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:31.360 emergency that's been declared. I guess, like it, is it possible? 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:33.959 You said Simon were very resilient and said the Oligan 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:38.479 were very smart. Can things return to the way they 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:40.760 work and we at least stop things getting worse? 0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:46.399 And how Yeah, you know, I think our relationship with 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:52.600 the environment is broken I'm a communications specialist. That's that's 0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:57.200 what I do. So I am all about relationships. Now 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.240 when I talk about relationships, I'm just I'm not taughtking 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:04.760 just about relationships with our fellow human beings. But I'm 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:08.760 talking about relationships with the land, the water, the air, 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:13.840 and I like to simplify it for people. I always 0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:15.919 tell people, you know, when you're in a relationship with 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:19.840 a significant other or or a pet. You know, a 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:24.119 lot of people have pets. It's it's a reciprocal relationship. 0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:26.960 There's a lot of give and take and there's a 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:29.920 lot of compromise. 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:35.480 And as as a young boy and growing up in 0:28:35.480 --> 0:28:39.640 in Gigxan Territory and in Jimsand Territory, I was always 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:43.160 taught that you only took what you needed, and you 0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:47.320 didn't you didn't take any more, and you respected all 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:48.160 living things. 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:50.000 You know. 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:54.440 I don't mean to pick on anybody, but sport fishing 0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:58.800 is against our laws. You know, we don't play with fish. 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:03.400 It's it's it's just something we do not do. And 0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.240 when I'm talking about our relationship with with all living things, 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:11.680 you know, the land, the water, the swimmers, the two legged, 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:15.560 the four leged, the ones fly. Our relationship with them 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:18.480 is broken. You know, we used to harvest a lot 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:21.840 more than we do now. You know, in the skin 0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:25.280 of watershed, you know, we used to harvest seals. We 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.600 used to harvest, you know, a lot more things other 0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:31.640 than just salmon. And what we've done over the last 0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:35.000 fifty or so years has put so much pressure on 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:37.920 salmon that they just can't sustain it. 0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:38.520 You know. 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.800 You know, I might not be very popular for saying this, 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.240 but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals, 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:50.560 and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt and 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.960 sell those products so that people can make money and 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:59.920 people can be fed. I'm not blaming the seals for 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:04.880 or the decline in salmon. There's a lot of factors 0:30:04.880 --> 0:30:07.440 at play when it comes to the decline in salmon. 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:12.680 But what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:16.000 with the environment is broken, and we need to fix it, 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:18.880 and and it's out of balance right now, and we 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:22.240 need to bring it back to balance, and we just 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:23.719 need to consume less. 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:28.840 Certainly, Yeah, and does that I'm curious that that sort 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:31.560 of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:34.240 was very commercial, so people would be able to harvest 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:37.600 just as salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:39.720 these other animals that they were harvesting before. 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:43.320 I think, I think salmon were very plentiful, right. 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:45.480 You know, you hear stories about when when the Europeans 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:49.000 first arrived, you know, they could I've heard stories of them, 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.400 you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:54.760 the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon. Right, 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:58.240 So I thought, I think that, you know, there there 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:03.280 was a mentality that, you know, the resource was infinite, right, 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:07.360 it would last forever. I think that was the mentality. 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:12.240 And so they just harvested it, harvested as much as 0:31:12.240 --> 0:31:14.480 they could, as fast as they could, and scent it 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:17.560 around the world. And you know, if any of your 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.600 listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's it's one of the most 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:24.480 flavorful things you've ever you will ever taste. And it's 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:27.200 it's the best meat in the world on the planet 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.720 for you in terms of nutrients and and such, and 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:36.240 you know, it's it's totally natural, and yeah, it's just 0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:38.360 all around good for the environment. 0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:38.800 You know, it. 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:42.640 Feeds the birds, the two legs, the four legs. It 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:46.800 even feeds plants, you know, and it's it's so resilient, 0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:49.160 and we just need to give salmon a chance and. 0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:52.400 Figure out a way forward where we. 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:56.440 Can have a reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment. 0:31:57.520 --> 0:32:01.560 Yeah, and preps like a very conc creat steps. Like 0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:03.760 a lot of our listeners are not in the areas 0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:06.600 where you are, but they could be all over the world, right, 0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:09.880 But are there things they could do to show solidarity, 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:12.920 to give you support? How can they help? 0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:17.360 Well, I would encourage encourage everybody to you know, visit 0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:20.840 our website and and kind of understand what we see 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:24.960 as a pathway forward for remedying this. You know, it's 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:28.200 it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:31.640 a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here. 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:34.360 And and that's what we're trying to do. 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:41.160 We're trying to take that knowledge that it is in 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:43.720 you know, Louis and just in the Unich and the 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:47.719 knowledge in every little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:50.360 that fine grain of every salmon that goes up every 0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:58.200 little stream, and get that incorporated into you know, the uh, 0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:02.560 you know, into an engagement proplem sys that ultimately the 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.520 way we've been doing it is a failed experiment. 0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:06.960 We can call that now. 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:10.320 Because these methods we put in to try to protect 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:15.160 wild salmon, we've seen nothing but wild salmon decline. You 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:18.320 asked if salmon are resilient, They very much are. They 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:22.000 very much are resilient. There's reason there's five species of 0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:27.640 salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval 0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:32.040 living on the Pacific rim. They're very resilient to the 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:37.240 occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, we're 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:42.280 very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:46.640 it does to your digestive system, nervous system, everything, your 0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:51.960 family life. It's the same for these ecosystems. It's not 0:33:52.120 --> 0:34:00.040 the occasional huge impact, it's the continuous stress. And this 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.280 area was not it's not really pristine. It was highly 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:08.120 modified by the people and actively engaged with their environment. 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:12.120 They enhance salmon streams and resting pools, They built clam gardens, 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:16.600 They move trees and vegetation around, you know, enhance beaches, 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:19.880 and it was very active. And we can incorporate that 0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:24.560 knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:25.200 these things. 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:26.160 And we need to do that. 0:34:27.000 --> 0:34:27.239 Yeah. 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:30.680 Well, when people ask me what they can do, I 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:36.839 respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now, 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:40.200 a lot of people think that this climate change problem, 0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:44.160 resource extraction, et cetera, it is too big. 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.719 For us to tackle, but actually it's not. 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:50.320 You know, if we all do a little bit and 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:56.040 just change our habits, we can make huge change. You know, 0:34:56.120 --> 0:35:01.080 I always think about, you know, in British Columbia and 0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:06.520 in canadaa gosh about you know, forty years ago they 0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.680 brought in a law stating that everybody had to wear 0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:15.600 seat belts. There was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear 0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:18.680 a seat belt. They weren't used to it right, But 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:23.080 after a while, you know, nobody, nobody even bothered to 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:24.080 complain about it. 0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:24.839 We just do it. 0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:28.960 Whenever I get into my vehicle. Now it's second nature 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:31.680 to put my seat belt on. I don't even think 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:33.080 about it. It's done. 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:33.759 Now. 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:36.200 If we can all just look at some of the 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:40.680 habits that we have, whether it's you know, using too 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:46.640 much water, maybe some wasteful practices, you know, driving when 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.520 we don't need to drive. Maybe maybe we can walk 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:51.600 a little more often, and maybe we can bike a 0:35:51.600 --> 0:35:57.160 little more often, just really look at what actions you're 0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:02.120 taking daily that maybe attributing to climate change and global 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:06.279 warming and trying to change one habit, and when you've 0:36:06.360 --> 0:36:11.000 got that habit, change change another one. And you know, 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:16.600 I think over time we can we can fix this. 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:17.920 But it's going to. 0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:23.719 Take a concerned effort by everybody on this planet, and 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:29.040 more so by some of us who are a little 0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:36.520 more privileged I guess, to be able to change our habits. 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:37.920 Thanks. 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:41.200 Yeah, I think that was very very well said. And 0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:42.680 do you have anything to add. 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:47.239 Louis, Yeah, I appreciate what Kirby said earlier on O. 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:48.960 We're connected to the land. 0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:54.040 And everybody's grandmother was your grandmother when I was growing up. 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:58.000 As long as you were, you know, you paid attention 0:36:58.160 --> 0:37:04.560 and you would help. I remember when in the fish camp, 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:11.799 grandmother brought my friend and myself into the smokehouse and 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:15.279 they had they had a fish that was just put in, 0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:21.480 the salmon that was in the middle, and the finished 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:23.960 salmon that was ready to come out on the end. 0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:28.839 And you know, they would only tell you once. They said, 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.600 you can eat all you want, but if you waste 0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:35.520 one piece. You were never welcomed in the smokehouses again, 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:39.760 so they didn't waste time, and they told it would 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:43.720 tell the children when they get too loud, your children 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.399 are to be seen but not heard. And just like that, 0:37:47.480 --> 0:37:51.000 they never stopped teaching. It was I wish I could 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:54.880 remember more from a long time ago, but I was 0:37:54.960 --> 0:38:00.399 lucky that they treated you know, whatever friend I had, 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:08.239 their their grandparents were were mine that just learned how 0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:10.360 to get bark off the cedar tree, and so you 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:13.960 don't kill the cedar tree from my friend's grandmother. I 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:16.960 never forgotten. When my wife wanted to go out and 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:22.440 get get some bark, she was surprised. I told her 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.040 I know how to do it, and so we would. 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:26.719 We went out and got it. But just things like 0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:27.360 that is. 0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:30.640 We just try not to. 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:36.320 Leave a footprint when when we left our insights or 0:38:36.360 --> 0:38:38.239 any camp areas. 0:38:40.640 --> 0:38:42.200 I just wanted to add that thank. 0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:46.919 You, thank you. It's very insightful. So talking of leaving 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:48.799 a footprint, I think perhaps the last thing I want 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:54.279 to talk about is mind tailings and the way that 0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:58.160 because of some of these minds. So there are some 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:00.520 I guess minds that people want to build. Some minds 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:02.880 of people have already built, right I was reading on 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:06.160 your website about tailing dam and what that is and 0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:09.880 what that does and what that might mean for protecting 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:15.000 the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailing stam 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.480 is and what a tailing stamp failure is. 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:22.120 I just I learned a little bit on a meeting 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:28.040 up and Anchorage on the form on the Alaska Environment, 0:39:28.640 --> 0:39:35.120 and they had scientists there that we're speaking, and this 0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:39.239 is a few years ago now, and they talked about 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:44.560 every mind that's in place is poisoning the rivers to 0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:47.600 this day and it will always poison because it doesn't 0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:49.120 stop bleeding out of there. 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:50.600 Wherever they were mining. 0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:54.840 That was very interesting, and they had just started to 0:39:56.000 --> 0:40:01.440 do some water sampling and we were trying to do 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.000 that and this year we were finally able to do 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:06.879 something with that. We got to start with this guy 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:11.200 there and looking forward to get water samples come fall 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:14.359 at moose hunting time and we'll have to see how 0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:16.600 many he would like to have this time. 0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:21.600 I just know, no, it's not good. It's poisonous. 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:26.759 The water used to be that beautiful bluish glacier water 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:30.400 coming down through the river there and not seeing that anymore, 0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:34.239 so I want to get first water for coffee, I'll 0:40:34.320 --> 0:40:37.480 go to the side mountain where I know it's clean and. 0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:42.000 Come and coming off the mountain. Things like that we 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:44.080 have to watch out for, you. 0:40:44.040 --> 0:40:47.480 Know, specifically to a tailings dawn. That's just the containment 0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:52.719 structure for a tailing's dump. They may columns, tailings disposal 0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:56.520 facilities or storage facilities, but they're never coming back for them. 0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:57.560 It's a dump. 0:40:57.600 --> 0:41:04.440 It's permitted, just as any municipal landfill would be. British 0:41:04.440 --> 0:41:09.080 Columbia tends to use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:13.320 They need to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.960 they're going to oxidize. They're going to create acid mind drainage, 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:21.239 dissolve all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:27.080 and basically a large risk, a large threat. We live 0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:31.400 in a rainforest, so that water beunce is very critical 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:33.440 and it's almost impossible to do in a time of 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:37.200 climate change. They're wanting to maintain three meters of water 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:41.759 on top of these tailings in perpetituity. I mean, at 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:45.680 what point in perpetituity does any certainty of your predictions 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:51.360 completely break down? And they require massive amounts of water treatment. 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.560 And it's not just the tailings, it's the waste rock 0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:59.640 in Louis's Unich River, it's not just the Bruce Jack. 0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:02.080 But now now they're permitting the Escape Creek, an open 0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:05.960 pit and already permitted but not yet built as the KSM, 0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:09.560 which would be one of the top five largest open 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:13.279 pits in the world on a small water shed with 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:17.960 incredibly low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:23.360 kind of change of pH or acid and is home to, 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:28.080 you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:33.239 of Pacific salmon, and in the long run, the only 0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:37.879 way we're going to keep salmon from extinction as well, 0:42:37.920 --> 0:42:41.120 as Kirby says, kind of help, you know, change our 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:44.319 attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:49.160 genetic diversity that's spawn in all of those little tiny 0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:53.960 streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:58.400 need that genetic versity. Salmon are incredibly resilient, but we 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:04.279 also can't know completely ignore our part in disrupting the 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:08.879 natural cycles here, and as they pointed out, they are 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:12.840 incredibly disruptive. I did you know, I want to say that, 0:43:13.000 --> 0:43:15.279 you know, Louis mentioned how they're not listening. He's not 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:19.280 listened to, and that story can be multiplied in every 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:23.440 community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:28.759 entire United States about the world. But that's what we're 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:32.600 trying to remedy here, trying to let's all get together. 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:36.240 Let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings 0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:38.719 like our summit, that were actually related, some of us 0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:44.279 were related to one another. And look at this in 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:46.000 the big picture. 0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:47.200 Holistic way. 0:43:47.400 --> 0:43:51.240 You have to look at big things like climate change 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:56.880 and natural ecosystems and complex mining that just gets bigger 0:43:56.920 --> 0:43:59.879 and bigger just due to economy of scale. They might 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:02.719 the good stuff a long time ago. They took the 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:05.279 chocolate chips out of the chocolate chip cookie. Now they're 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:11.040 going after the baking soda, and that creates exponential moral waste. 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:13.520 Right, Yeah, because there's less of the stuff they're looking 0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:15.560 for and more of the waste. 0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:17.000 Wow. Yeah. 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:21.000 I've certainly spent some time around some abandoned mines in Alaska, 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:24.480 and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and 0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:29.160 then abandonment and just sort of complete sort of obligation 0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:31.560 of the responsibility for the damage that it's done. 0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:36.040 I look at the climax lived of a mine and Leadville, Colorado. 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:38.799 It's a good example. Been there too, Yeah, maybe you've 0:44:38.800 --> 0:44:39.160 seen that. 0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:41.840 I've raced my bike up there a couple of times. 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:43.600 Yeah, it has to work there. 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:49.640 Oh well okay, yeah, yeah, wow, that is a and 0:44:49.760 --> 0:44:52.440 the impact that it's had on that town of the mining. 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:55.359 It's all it's a process that hurts almost everyone above 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.520 from the people who owned mining companies right, Like, it 0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:01.560 doesn't benefit as many as many people as it in 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:02.800 the long run, it hurts. 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.680 I think you're going towards benefits, and there should be 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:09.759 equitable benefits. But the benefit, the first cut of the 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:15.200 pie is the environment itself. They have it not only 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:17.960 has to just be maintained and sustained, it has to 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:21.560 actually benefit at this point if we're going to avoid 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:28.080 large scale collapse and u But there's ways of doing that, 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:31.520 and part of that is giving Indigenous people a strong 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:38.120 save consent the new laws. You know, Canada ratified the 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:41.840 United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. BC 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:46.200 has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights of 0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:51.600 People's Act, they're supposed to respect, you know, these traditional territories. 0:45:51.840 --> 0:45:56.600 Regardless of the land status of Alaska tribes, they certainly 0:45:56.880 --> 0:45:59.680 have an obligation to respect the First Nations and the 0:45:59.760 --> 0:46:03.440 ends heeded territories of the First Nation people in British Columbia. 0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:08.480 That's clear by law, and the Supreme Courts have expanded 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:13.200 it to people that no longer live in Alaska if 0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:17.080 they still have that direct connection to their traditional territories 0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:23.279 within I'm sorry, British Columbia. And so we're going to 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:27.640 use that to make sure that Louis and everybody is. 0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:28.799 Heard and. 0:46:31.000 --> 0:46:34.080 Get that knowledge as part of and not just the knowledge, 0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:36.840 but the act of participation. That's part of the benefit 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:40.600 sharing if indeed anything happens. But at this point, we 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:45.440 just need so much more restoration before we damage it further, quite. 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:50.080 Right, Yeah, of course, So you spoke about this large 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:54.279 open pit mind, and it's something people can do if 0:46:54.560 --> 0:46:56.759 they want to. I'm guessing it would be optimal for 0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.279 them not to open another massive open pit mind days 0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:02.880 of something people could do to help maybe make that 0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.799 a process that you know, where Indigenous people listen to 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:08.040 and not just mining interests. 0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:12.399 Well, this indeed is for me, and I'll be quit. 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:13.279 I think, you know. 0:47:13.800 --> 0:47:18.279 Unfortunately, the engaging with the process, with the recognition that 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:21.360 the process is broken, but engaging it to the maximum 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:24.439 extent you can to try to get your word out 0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:26.880 there and influence decision makers. 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:29.640 You got to at least do that. 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:35.880 Yeah, I'm sure Kirby has stood the lines out there 0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:37.000 in British Columbia. 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:38.239 I'm sure he can speak to it. 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:39.319 Please, do you, Kob? 0:47:39.480 --> 0:47:42.640 Yeah, you know, if you're If you or your listeners 0:47:42.680 --> 0:47:48.040 haven't heard of the term indigenous science, I would like 0:47:48.080 --> 0:47:53.000 to introduce that Indigenous science is a distinct, time tested 0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:59.640 and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and complement Western science. 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:04.680 Now I've introduced this many times. It's by no means 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:09.360 did I invent this at all, but I've been introduced 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:11.200 to it about a year ago and I've been using 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:16.400 it a lot now. In many instances, indigenous science is 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:22.280 thousands of years old, whereas Western science. In some areas, 0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:26.400 such as British Columbia, Canada, where we've only you know, 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:30.319 been in contact with European settlers for just over five 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:34.080 hundred years, indigenous science is much much older. 0:48:35.280 --> 0:48:36.520 It's as I said earlier. 0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:41.680 It's it's time tested and the knowledge is immense, and 0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:46.560 you know that alone should give a lot of credence 0:48:46.640 --> 0:48:52.719 to to the knowledge and the science of Indigenous peoples. 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.520 Yeah, I think that's an excellent consideration. And we had 0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:01.880 an episode this week at you spoke of indigenous medical technologies, 0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:04.920 and I think it's important to recognize these things are 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:10.600 on a par with like European Western medical technologies, right 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:14.680 as opposed to be different from, but have them on 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:16.880 the same level and the same with the science that 0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:18.560 you mentioned. I think that's an excellent point too. 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:23.520 I have to chime in because I had that point 0:49:23.560 --> 0:49:26.600 of view. Sometimes I have to laugh because what is 0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:29.840 at least sixty five percent of all pharmaceuticals are derived 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:33.120 from natural plants that the Indigenous people and full knowledge 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:39.000 for a long time, and that information wasn't necessarily transferred 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:42.960 in the nicest manner often, so I need to acknowledge that. 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:43.640 Yeah. 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:46.480 Yeah, every time we take an aspirin, we're benefiting from 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:49.239 indigenous science, right, Indigenous medical technologies. 0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:54.160 Yeah, and those technologies are incredible the hell about because 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:58.399 just a prime example, it's it's an incredible study in 0:49:58.440 --> 0:50:01.279 the morphology of the mouth of helibate, the habits of 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:05.440 a helibate, and they can design the hook to target 0:50:05.760 --> 0:50:08.400 very specifically the size of the helibate, so they're not 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:11.880 getting the big breeders and this and that, and just 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:19.239 the amount of observation adjustment engineering that goes into a 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.640 helibateocause in itself very credible. The Western people when they 0:50:23.719 --> 0:50:26.080 moved in and at least here on the coast, they 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.440 looked at the way the clink at height and Shimshei 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:34.800 and people were harvesting fish with beach traps and beach 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:40.359 nets and whatnot, and they copied that fish wheels and 0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:42.960 they copied that technology. But then they took it to 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:47.480 the massive extreme and just took everything out of the rivers. 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:51.560 But they used indigenous technology to do it, ironically enough, 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:56.879 so we can turn that around. You know, we can 0:50:57.000 --> 0:51:01.080 use that technology to turn this around. And there's no 0:51:01.200 --> 0:51:04.320 reason why we shouldn't this thanks point. 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:07.000 Is there anything you each would like to leave our 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.320 listeners with, maybe a place they can find you online, 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:12.680 a way they can show support and something like that. 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:17.120 A little bit that I didn't mention those I'm also 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:22.759 I'm Simpson and Clinkett My grandfather and great grandfather. It 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:27.759 came from Hartley Bay when Mettle Catla was built by 0:51:27.840 --> 0:51:37.560 them and eighteen eighty seven, I believe and their boat 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:41.760 builders that they sold their rowboats up and down the coast. 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:46.880 But yeah, I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather. 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:50.160 He was good to just you never stopped learning from 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:53.000 all of our elders. I just wanted to throw that 0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:53.520 in there. 0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:56.400 Thank you, thank you so much. How about you, Kevy, 0:51:56.400 --> 0:51:57.879 anything you'd like to leave people with. 0:51:58.520 --> 0:52:00.399 I just want to leave people with it thought. 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:03.600 You know, as I said earlier, look at look at 0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:06.200 the habits that you can change that are the low 0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:10.799 hanging fruit. And I'd also like them to, you know, 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:17.120 think about how they can change. Think about holding your 0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:24.399 elected officials accountable. I'm not sure what it's like where 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:27.720 you're from, but you know a lot of our elected 0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:32.759 officials they like to talk, but they don't like to 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:33.360 do anything. 0:52:34.080 --> 0:52:38.720 So actions speak louder than words. 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:44.080 Hold your elected officials accountable every time you see them, 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:49.440 ask them what they're doing about protecting wild salmon. 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:54.319 Thanks, thank you guy, and think from you. 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:58.800 Okay, Yeah, Quickly along the lines of what Kirby was saying, 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:02.520 I mean, recognize that the metals that are necessary to 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:06.320 support our lifestyle are already there. They're in our walls, 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:09.360 in our cars, in our computers. The idea that we 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:11.719 need more of these metals in our lives is just 0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:14.520 the idea that we need more stuff in our lives, 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:19.719 and that addiction is what's strangling this planet. And so 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:24.680 Louis I mean sorry, Kirby's you know advice is you know, 0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:28.360 is very strong. But if you want to follow along, 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:35.360 go to www. Dot s e I t C dot 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:41.759 org o rg SO, Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:45.799 s C I T S. We're just getting started and 0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:50.080 so there should be some incredible stories along the way. 0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:52.719 One last thing I'd like to say is that we 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:57.960 really need to consider the circular economy right now. We 0:53:58.000 --> 0:54:00.719 live in a society where we throw oh way so 0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:01.600 many things. 0:54:01.680 --> 0:54:01.880 You know. 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.680 I think about vehicles that go to the junkyard and 0:54:05.719 --> 0:54:08.799 they're crushed, you know, like we should be taking those 0:54:08.880 --> 0:54:12.839 vehicles apart, using the parts that we can, instead of 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:16.279 just crushing it into this big, massive rock that we're 0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:20.400 eventually going to need to dismantle again sometime in the future. 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:22.799 We should be doing that now, and if there are 0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:26.320 any good parts in that vehicle, then they should be 0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:27.719 put back into circulation. 0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:31.959 Yeah. 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:33.120 I think that's an exa point. 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:35.640 Yeah. They are elements after all. 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:36.399 Yeah. 0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:40.600 Yeah, well they're already broken down into the elements, right, 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:43.880 and we're just crushing them back into a big rock again, 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:46.120 and then we're gonna have to take them out into 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:46.919 the elements again. 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:49.120 Yeah, when we run aft have to dig out of 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:51.200 the ground. It's very sad to think that, like the 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:55.680 same desire. A colleague and I spent some time reporting 0:54:55.719 --> 0:54:59.000 on the civil warm in Myanmar last year, and that's 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.520 the same thing. It's people trying to extract rare earth metals, 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.480 and then it's it's people dying in the environment being 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.640 damage because of it. And it's I think Curve made 0:55:07.719 --> 0:55:10.600 excellent point that like if we don't you know, those 0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:12.160 things are already there, and guys said it, like in 0:55:12.200 --> 0:55:14.560 our walls and in our computers and things, and we 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:16.719 could do so much better to use the ones we 0:55:16.760 --> 0:55:19.640 have rather than consistently damaging people on the planet to 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:20.360 dig up more. 0:55:24.040 --> 0:55:27.080 Respectful. Yeah, be respectful. 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:30.400 Thank you so much all of you for giving me 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:32.880 some of your afternoon and sharing your time with our listeners. 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:35.480 I know they would really appreciate it, and I do 0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:53.480 you too. Hello, Welcome to It could Happen here a 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.759 podcast which only has one button, and it's edited by 0:55:56.800 --> 0:56:01.400 Danil using a ten year old Logitech Experts control. That's 0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:04.239 a submarine joke for those of you who have not 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:08.680 been following h Today, I'm joined by Alex and Tom, 0:56:09.160 --> 0:56:12.839 both of them graduate students in the UC system, and 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:16.600 we're talking about this this really obscene charge of assault 0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:21.480 that some graduate students are facing after they disrupted an 0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:25.239 alumni event in San Diego. Hi, Alex and Tom, if 0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:27.279 you had to introduce yourselves a little bit, as far 0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:29.000 as you feel comfortable. 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:31.480 Hi, Jan Sure, thanks for having us back. My name 0:56:31.560 --> 0:56:34.560 is Alex. I'm a graduate student at University of California, 0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:37.719 San Diego. Some of you have been listening since November. 0:56:37.880 --> 0:56:42.200 My remember when I first came on the show to 0:56:42.239 --> 0:56:44.680 tell you about our strike. And I guess we're going 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:48.279 to give some interesting updates since then. 0:56:49.880 --> 0:56:54.480 I'm also graduate student you see, San Diego. I'm in 0:56:55.560 --> 0:57:00.360 pretty my program. I've been here for a while, change 0:57:00.360 --> 0:57:02.000 apart which very cool. 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.279 Yeah, And so I think to start out with we 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:08.720 should just explain, Well, we'll explain what happened in detail 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:10.640 at the event in a bit, but can you just 0:57:10.760 --> 0:57:15.560 explain what these charges that people are facing are and 0:57:15.560 --> 0:57:17.680 how they found out that they have been charged with 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:21.120 assault after doing something which was not violent in the 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:21.640 first place. 0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:23.120 Yeah. 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:26.680 Absolutely, So, the most sort of recent thing that's happened 0:57:26.720 --> 0:57:28.479 is is and we'll talk about the details in the moment, 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:32.520 but as James alluded to, we held a peaceful protest 0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:36.480 back in May related to a number of violations of 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:40.040 our most recent collective bargaining agreement, which I'll also be 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:45.920 happy to go into detail on, and in response to 0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:50.520 what was, by all accounts, by what I witnessed by 0:57:50.520 --> 0:57:53.880 everyone else that I've talked to, was a completely peaceful protest, 0:57:55.320 --> 0:58:00.520 the university has decided to allege that sixty seven graduate students, 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:03.720 including by our account eighteen who were either not present 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:06.720 or not involved, are going to be charged under the 0:58:06.800 --> 0:58:10.800 student conduct process with committing a physical assault, as well 0:58:10.840 --> 0:58:17.360 as charges for disruption and a vague assertion that we 0:58:17.360 --> 0:58:21.200 were threatening the health and safety of others. These are 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:26.400 quite serious allegations. They do carry potential sanctions up to 0:58:27.240 --> 0:58:31.360 long term suspension. And expulsion from the university, right. 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:36.200 Yeah, and that's I think people like the exposure for 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:40.560 graduate students is so high, right, Like, if you are 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.360 on the job market, you know that this could set 0:58:43.360 --> 0:58:48.360 back your progress. Already very challenging job market, its suspension 0:58:48.440 --> 0:58:51.040 or expulsion presumably could have long term consequences for your 0:58:51.040 --> 0:58:54.400 employability and something that like I think I spent the 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:58.240 better part of eight years at UCSD. You've invested a 0:58:58.240 --> 0:59:01.560 lot of time, you get paid like shit, and if 0:59:01.600 --> 0:59:05.720 you then get nothing out of it, that is potentially devastating. 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:10.160 For each individualness. This is absolutely devastating. These are careers 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:14.280 I've invested, you know, a minimum of seven years at 0:59:14.320 --> 0:59:17.480 least Humanities Fund. There's so many of us more. But 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:20.480 it's also never stating for the university itself because these 0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:25.120 students that are being charged by from virtually having program 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:27.480 on fact that so many of them are working in 0:59:28.000 --> 0:59:35.120 very prestientious, high powered laboratories, have you know, fellowships and scholarships. 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:38.080 So this is really a bad look for the university 0:59:38.160 --> 0:59:42.680 as well to you know, potentially have sixty seven graduate 0:59:42.760 --> 0:59:45.280 students under these charges. 0:59:45.920 --> 0:59:47.360 Yeah, totally sixty seven. 0:59:47.400 --> 0:59:47.800 It's funny. 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:51.800 I've been sixty eight, we could have. It's there's when 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:53.720 I like, I don't know when I hay sixty obviously 0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:56.400 I think of like nineteen sixty eight. And it's remarkable. 0:59:56.440 --> 0:59:59.320 This is a university at one point somewhat self immolated, 0:59:59.640 --> 1:00:04.240 you see in Project Vietnam War, and now we are 1:00:04.480 --> 1:00:06.680 like I had a reputation for radicalism, and now here 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:10.400 we are charging people for walking onto a stage and shouting. 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:13.920 Do you want to talk about that they're walking onto 1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:16.280 a stage and shouting? Can you maybe give us an 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:22.240 account of the events and then we'll talk about maybe 1:00:22.280 --> 1:00:26.240 how those have been represented in the process. That makes sense. 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:33.760 Yeah, sure. So this particular protest took place at an 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:40.200 awards ceremony, very sort of fancy, sort of annual event 1:00:40.280 --> 1:00:44.920 that the university hosts where they give awards to various 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:48.720 alumni and kind of as a sort of fundraising opportunity 1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:54.400 as well. And what the protest to the form of 1:00:54.680 --> 1:00:59.880 was that a number of graduate student workers walked on 1:01:00.040 --> 1:01:06.439 stage uninvited and began giving speeches and holding signs demonstrating 1:01:07.640 --> 1:01:10.280 the ways in which and informing the audience of the 1:01:10.280 --> 1:01:14.040 ways in which that our contracts have not been upheld 1:01:14.080 --> 1:01:17.760 since we signed them in December. The ways in which 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:20.560 the university is circumventing some of the raises that we 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:24.000 were promised for our research and teaching, and the ways 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:28.919 it is trying to sort of prevent those things from 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:32.000 being resolved in the sort of normal channels that you 1:01:32.080 --> 1:01:34.960 go through with these sort of these sort of union 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:38.680 and contract administration things. And that's been I'm gooing for 1:01:38.920 --> 1:01:43.880 i suppose six months now, with relatively little process. So 1:01:44.000 --> 1:01:48.160 that demonstration took place about up until the time that 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:52.600 some local police officers arrived, and at that time the 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:58.560 demonstration was fully compliant with those orders, and the police 1:01:58.600 --> 1:02:01.200 officers noted such and theirs, which I was able to 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:04.840 retrieve from the city. And then after that the demonstration 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:08.840 continued outside of the venue of the event, where people 1:02:08.880 --> 1:02:11.880 were still able to you know, make a decent amount 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:16.920 of noise and raise their grievances despite the walls separating 1:02:17.360 --> 1:02:20.440 the group from the alumni inside. And it certainly did 1:02:20.440 --> 1:02:23.920 get some attention, since we were in touch after that 1:02:24.160 --> 1:02:27.520 with people who were sort of relatively high up in 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:33.120 a number of university and alumni centric offices and who 1:02:33.200 --> 1:02:36.520 were surprised to hear of the things that we were 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:40.080 alleging and wanted to hear more and be able to 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:43.240 raise those issues further up into the university. So these 1:02:43.320 --> 1:02:45.560 charges certainly did sort of come as a shock, given 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:48.040 that at first a lot of people at the event 1:02:48.120 --> 1:02:52.800 seemed receptive in a way, though certainly not all, but 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:57.760 some were certainly receptive to our concerns and what we 1:02:57.800 --> 1:03:00.840 had to say. 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:03.720 A couple of interesting details there. The first one of 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:08.800 this that the immediate in participate in this event was 1:03:08.880 --> 1:03:13.640 actually the news that Chancellor Bridey Coles Law was in attendance, 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:17.040 and this was only a week or two after they 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:21.680 become public knowledge that he had received a five hundred 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:26.160 thousand dollars arrays as an effort to keep him in 1:03:26.240 --> 1:03:30.240 the university, which raises a salary to more than a 1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:32.560 million dollars and I think makes him the fourth highest 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:39.240 paid university chancellor or president or in the United States. 1:03:39.400 --> 1:03:42.720 So we presented him with an award for UCS these 1:03:42.920 --> 1:03:50.240 most overpaid workers, and that was sort of our rationale 1:03:50.720 --> 1:03:53.320 before doing this specific event. And the other thing is 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:56.200 that when the police arrived, they actually gave no verbal 1:03:56.320 --> 1:03:59.560 orders for us to clear out. As soon as we 1:03:59.600 --> 1:04:03.360 saw them. We peacefully started to leave the stage, and 1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:06.400 they stood there as well. Their rests were made, now, 1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:12.880 interviews were orders were shouted. They remained on site for 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:17.280 the duration as we stood outside picking. There were no reinforcements, 1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:19.880 There were no swat teams, and we're just one or 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:23.840 two squad cars. The police typically are known for having 1:04:23.840 --> 1:04:27.400 outside responses to minor problems, but the fact that they 1:04:27.440 --> 1:04:31.760 did not have any kind of aggressive response to this 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:37.480 indicate to us that they were was entirely peaceful events. 1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:40.960 Yeah, and the dispatch looks don't show them having any 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:45.920 concerns about violence or responding to to any like real violence, 1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:48.360 of them seeing any violence responding to it, right. 1:04:48.680 --> 1:04:51.439 Yeah, so I was able to grab those in the Yeah, 1:04:51.640 --> 1:04:54.480 it's difficult to say because it looks like maybe two 1:04:54.520 --> 1:04:58.160 people called nine on one, even though three. 1:04:57.880 --> 1:04:58.600 It was three. 1:04:58.880 --> 1:05:00.920 Yeah, we had no violence. 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.240 Yeah, two said there was no violence. That third person 1:05:04.320 --> 1:05:06.800 said they had secondhand reports that we had pushed the 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:09.640 chancellor off the stage, which we have video of that 1:05:10.120 --> 1:05:13.560 very definitely not happening. He stood next to the graduate 1:05:13.560 --> 1:05:16.200 students and then of his own initiative, turned and walked 1:05:16.200 --> 1:05:20.120 off the stage. So the only allegation that's documented in 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:24.080 real time of any violence occurring was one admittedly secondhand, 1:05:24.080 --> 1:05:28.240 and two is disproven conclusively by the available video. 1:05:28.720 --> 1:05:32.520 Right, and that video is online right, like it's been posted. Yeah, 1:05:32.520 --> 1:05:33.240 it's easy to find. 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:36.280 There's that particular one that really easily disproves it. There's 1:05:36.280 --> 1:05:38.800 a video link for the union uploaded it, so I 1:05:38.800 --> 1:05:40.360 can we can drop that in the show notes second, 1:05:40.400 --> 1:05:41.080 send that too. 1:05:41.120 --> 1:05:43.440 Yeah, excellent, We'll make sure we do that. And likewise, 1:05:43.520 --> 1:05:48.920 the pra that this publicly available, folks could go see it. 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:53.360 All Sandy pras are publicly available. We have like a 1:05:53.400 --> 1:05:56.360 lot of evidence that no one was finally assaulted. What 1:05:56.520 --> 1:06:00.640 is the university alleging that was done? And I guess 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:03.200 that they claiming what do they claim the student workers did? 1:06:04.480 --> 1:06:04.680 Well? 1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:08.080 The closest thing that we can find so in a 1:06:08.720 --> 1:06:11.960 you know, in the documentation that each person was given 1:06:12.400 --> 1:06:14.920 about the charges that they face, the closest thing we 1:06:14.960 --> 1:06:19.400 can find to a description that seems to imply assault 1:06:19.760 --> 1:06:24.440 was that someone claimed to have seen the chancellor. The 1:06:24.480 --> 1:06:28.680 word they use was bumped, which doesn't even necessarily imply 1:06:28.920 --> 1:06:34.320 intentionality in my mind. And and really the way that 1:06:34.360 --> 1:06:37.760 I read that sentence is that, you know, possible the 1:06:37.760 --> 1:06:41.600 stage was a little crowded and someone might have bumped 1:06:41.600 --> 1:06:45.560 into him. But I don't even recall ever seeing that happen. 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:47.720 I haven't talked to anyone who recalls seeing that happen, 1:06:48.480 --> 1:06:52.120 anyone who was in our group or not. But other 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:55.720 than that, the rest of the report is really just 1:06:55.840 --> 1:07:01.240 full of descriptions of how they they I don't even 1:07:01.280 --> 1:07:03.640 think they talked to anyone who said they were scared 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:05.720 of us. They just said people might have been scared 1:07:05.720 --> 1:07:07.840 of us. It's very strange. 1:07:08.080 --> 1:07:11.680 The report reads like a propaganda from the class for 1:07:12.160 --> 1:07:16.520 it's pearl clutching of the highest order. Some champagne glasses 1:07:16.640 --> 1:07:17.200 were broken. 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:18.040 Uh. 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:22.480 The event itself cost over one hundred thousand dollars to 1:07:22.520 --> 1:07:26.840 set up, with many different caterers and vendors, somebody who 1:07:27.000 --> 1:07:30.160 all the way from Switzerland where the event. And actually 1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:32.920 these aren't made up quotes from the report, you know. 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:36.400 And during event itself, it's ironic because I was at 1:07:36.440 --> 1:07:41.200 the event as we, you know, indeterminate and out of 1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:45.480 other dual students, and we actually were assaulted by members 1:07:45.480 --> 1:07:47.360 of the crowd who would come up and put their 1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:50.920 arms on their hands on our shoulders and how us 1:07:50.960 --> 1:07:54.800 puss why people hate unions and you know, hey, I 1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:58.360 brought my nine year old grandmother to this and I 1:07:58.520 --> 1:08:02.960 have some you know, fifty million dollars ranch, and I'm 1:08:03.000 --> 1:08:06.760 being honored for this. People pumping my trust, people pumping 1:08:06.760 --> 1:08:10.200 other people's trusting fingers on our faces and telling us 1:08:10.280 --> 1:08:13.720 to really ruined their special night. And our response was, 1:08:13.760 --> 1:08:16.240 do you know, I think that our need to pay 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:19.400 branch and our theater, ourselves is a little bit more 1:08:19.439 --> 1:08:23.960 important than your special night at the at the museum 1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:26.560 by the ocean with the glasses of champagne. 1:08:27.000 --> 1:08:30.680 Yeah. Yeah, And it's not like it was even a 1:08:30.680 --> 1:08:32.639 All that was happening was that people who had given 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:34.320 them money or the who they want them to, who 1:08:34.320 --> 1:08:35.920 do they want to get money from, were being made 1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:39.720 to feel special. It wasn't as if you even interrupted 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:43.880 like a like a meeting or a function of the university. 1:08:44.120 --> 1:08:47.040 And unless we consider the function of the university these days, 1:08:47.080 --> 1:08:49.439 seems to be to get money and then distribute it 1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:52.320 to people in positions of power in the university. So 1:08:52.880 --> 1:08:55.920 given that right that this was an event, I guess 1:08:55.960 --> 1:08:58.840 which reinforced the people who have authority in the university. 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:02.880 It's interest to what's not interesting. It's upsetting to look 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:06.920 at the nature of the process that these sixty seven 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:10.479 people are facing, because it's not that they're not being 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:13.880 accused in a court of doing a crime. They're being 1:09:13.920 --> 1:09:18.080 accused by the university in the university of breaking the 1:09:18.080 --> 1:09:22.080 conduct rules of the university. So the university is like, 1:09:22.880 --> 1:09:25.599 it's all parties apart from the defendant. Right, it's a judge, 1:09:25.600 --> 1:09:29.480 it's a jury, it's a prosecuting lawyer and the executioner. 1:09:29.960 --> 1:09:31.560 So can you yeah, go ahead. 1:09:31.720 --> 1:09:34.000 And I'll just say something about that. You know that 1:09:34.040 --> 1:09:37.840 this was very much calculated on the part of the 1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:41.479 university to charge us as under the student crime Dutch 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:44.800 violation because of they're charging us as students. They're not 1:09:44.960 --> 1:09:48.760 charging us as workers. If we have workers, we would 1:09:48.800 --> 1:09:52.320 have representation in our meetings that would be part of 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:58.800 that litigation process. But as as students, the contexts of 1:09:58.880 --> 1:10:04.400 the labor five that is for the entire event is 1:10:05.360 --> 1:10:08.479 relevant that it can be divorced from that and treated 1:10:09.880 --> 1:10:16.799 the music coage. To charge undergraduates who are are drinking 1:10:16.920 --> 1:10:21.240 in their terms sexually harassing their peers from their classes 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:25.280 is not something that is in my view appropriate at 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:29.200 all to apply to a labor dispute, which is what 1:10:29.320 --> 1:10:29.840 this was. 1:10:30.720 --> 1:10:35.040 Yeah, Like, I think the only time I've been party 1:10:35.080 --> 1:10:38.120 to these proceedings is when an undergraduate did physically assault 1:10:38.120 --> 1:10:41.680 someone who I was teaching with. But it's not a 1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:45.160 normal procedure by any means, and certainly to use against 1:10:45.160 --> 1:10:48.360 grad students are very clearly taking part in a labor action. 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:51.160 I think it's very telling that the university is kind 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:55.160 of using one system to circumvent the fair bargaining and 1:10:55.200 --> 1:10:58.200 the unfair labor practices and all the things that they 1:10:58.200 --> 1:11:03.840 seem really like, they seem almost like inexplicably committed to 1:11:04.479 --> 1:11:08.120 not sticking to the contract, even though they got a 1:11:08.120 --> 1:11:10.240 contract that was largely favorable to them and not as 1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:12.519 much as people had wanted at the start of the strike. 1:11:13.360 --> 1:11:16.280 So how does it work from here? Like, what does 1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:17.840 this process look like? 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:22.360 Well, to start with, each of us has an individual 1:11:22.360 --> 1:11:28.080 meeting with a representative of the university, and at that meeting, 1:11:28.120 --> 1:11:32.519 we essentially have the response, the option to either accept 1:11:32.680 --> 1:11:37.679 responsibility for all the charges against us, or to say 1:11:37.720 --> 1:11:39.680 that we do not accept that responsibility and want to 1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:44.080 continue the process forward, at which point they will they 1:11:44.080 --> 1:11:49.200 will schedule or attempt to schedule a conduct review board 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:54.120 meeting where I believe three representatives from who have been 1:11:54.160 --> 1:11:56.880 sort of predetermined to serve on these conduct review boards 1:11:56.920 --> 1:12:03.080 will judge the weight of the evident in a preponderance 1:12:03.080 --> 1:12:06.240 of the evidence standard, and at that point then the 1:12:06.240 --> 1:12:08.840 Office of Student Conduct, if you are found responsible, I 1:12:08.840 --> 1:12:13.480 believe that office is then what decides what the sanctions 1:12:13.520 --> 1:12:18.479 are that you will face. So this this is a 1:12:18.520 --> 1:12:23.240 bit of an unprecedented process, at least for us we actually, 1:12:23.280 --> 1:12:25.400 I believe, and I want to clarify some numbers. I 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:29.599 think I said sixty seven graduate students earlier, they were 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:33.960 actually fifty nine from this event who were charged, and 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:36.759 that sixty seven comes from a to who were charged 1:12:36.800 --> 1:12:41.400 for a protest related to the university's attempt to fire 1:12:41.439 --> 1:12:45.280 workers for striking, which is still ongoing. That protest took 1:12:45.320 --> 1:12:49.280 place in January, and there that conduct process for those 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:52.880 eight workers has not yet resolved as we speak today 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:55.800 on June twentieth, So it's not clear how they are 1:12:55.840 --> 1:12:58.680 going to manage the logistics of trying to charge six 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:04.479 fifty nine workers in a single case. It could, assuming 1:13:04.520 --> 1:13:06.599 they follow their entire procedures by the book, and don't 1:13:06.640 --> 1:13:08.760 dismiss any charges. It could take more than a year 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:11.479 to resolve this situation, Jesus. 1:13:11.560 --> 1:13:15.680 And for people who have like they're either defending or 1:13:15.680 --> 1:13:19.160 advancing to candidacy or these are all things you can 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:21.880 do within grad school people who aren't familiar where you 1:13:21.920 --> 1:13:23.960 sort of level up your grad student status. 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:24.680 I guess. 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:27.280 Are people able to do that? 1:13:28.000 --> 1:13:33.519 Yeah, Luckily this does not restrict your academic advancement. It 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:36.040 can potentially if it goes from quarter to quarter, they 1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:39.439 can potentially put I believe, holds on registration. But I 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:42.800 think that's only if you don't sort of carry out 1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:46.920 your sanctions, assuming your sanction is not suspension. I could 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.080 be a time correct if I'm wrong on that. But 1:13:49.880 --> 1:13:51.960 what still could be the case is that you could 1:13:52.040 --> 1:13:54.160 you know, and could well be the case for me 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:57.519 that I defend before the conclusion of this process, but 1:13:59.000 --> 1:14:01.120 it could still end up is something that would be 1:14:01.200 --> 1:14:04.439 on a contact record that could be released in certain 1:14:04.439 --> 1:14:09.479 employment situations. So even if you are able to escape 1:14:10.479 --> 1:14:15.880 the process, so to speak, it is not necessarily not 1:14:16.000 --> 1:14:18.320 going to follow you after that point. 1:14:20.400 --> 1:14:23.840 By all indicators from those who have already had their 1:14:23.880 --> 1:14:27.479 first meeting on asking you know, need accept responsibility and 1:14:27.560 --> 1:14:32.040 of course states that no, we die foundations against us. 1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:37.679 But it seems as if the Office of Student Conduct 1:14:38.160 --> 1:14:41.920 is quite over poles by this. People have been trying 1:14:41.960 --> 1:14:45.160 to schedule a meeting to have not gotten responses from 1:14:45.200 --> 1:14:45.799 the office. 1:14:46.040 --> 1:14:46.120 Uh. 1:14:46.479 --> 1:14:48.960 The office then gets back to them a week or 1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:53.080 two later with you know, openly one or two options. 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:59.559 The really calculated evil of this it means charges dropped 1:14:59.560 --> 1:15:03.920 on the very last day of the quarter, which means 1:15:03.960 --> 1:15:08.000 that at least in the Arts and Humanities, most of 1:15:08.080 --> 1:15:11.879 us are going out of town or are conducting research 1:15:12.360 --> 1:15:16.400 or are on on fellowships, so we're not around to 1:15:17.200 --> 1:15:19.120 respond to these. And I think that that was a 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:22.640 decision that was purposefully made, but you know, to to 1:15:23.200 --> 1:15:26.680 process this is the sheer number of students involved in 1:15:26.720 --> 1:15:32.480 this is stidering, and I think that the office offices 1:15:32.960 --> 1:15:35.479 are really struggling. The other thing that I will say 1:15:35.680 --> 1:15:39.880 is we have it from informal channels that this is 1:15:39.920 --> 1:15:43.479 something that is being directed from the very top, which 1:15:43.520 --> 1:15:46.800 is the same from the Chancellor's office, that this is 1:15:46.840 --> 1:15:50.680 not something that you know, in partial observers, you know, 1:15:51.080 --> 1:15:54.360 made of something that the chancellor himself is directing. 1:15:56.160 --> 1:15:58.360 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, giving a chance to with 1:15:58.400 --> 1:16:00.880 there it also like it just put me in mind 1:16:00.880 --> 1:16:03.080 of twenty ten when I don't think either of you 1:16:03.120 --> 1:16:05.880 were at UCSD, but for those of us who were, 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:08.479 and there's a film about it actually called Dear White People, 1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:14.679 But there was a party where people wore blackface and 1:16:15.240 --> 1:16:18.920 this happened I think through a fraternity that was associated 1:16:18.920 --> 1:16:22.200 with the university, and getting the university to do anything 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:26.839 disciplinary about that required hundreds off not thousands of people 1:16:27.080 --> 1:16:30.880 to go on strike, to march, to occupy the Chancellor's complex, 1:16:31.800 --> 1:16:35.519 and to like physically demand action for weeks and weeks 1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:39.920 if not months from the Chancellor's system, right like, and 1:16:40.040 --> 1:16:43.920 still it was extremely unsatisfactory process. The resolution was with 1:16:44.000 --> 1:16:47.799 extremely unsatisfactory. But I guess that there's. 1:16:47.640 --> 1:16:52.080 A contemporaneous incident happening right now. I don't know other depils, 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:59.600 but impers individual was video or video fakes themselves progressing 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:04.640 screen with his professor and making low comments and a 1:17:04.680 --> 1:17:10.600 whole variety of really massosionistic behavior. Apparently this is his 1:17:11.080 --> 1:17:14.160 story to restraining or that he's received. But as a 1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:16.599 univers is concerned, this is still the case that's that's 1:17:16.640 --> 1:17:21.640 moving through it. It doesn't pear have had any any sanctions. 1:17:21.640 --> 1:17:26.760 Stories of sexual assaults, as you said, of racist harassment 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:31.320 that I really don't know, actually parted the student last 1:17:31.360 --> 1:17:37.280 summer for very threatening behavior and the very nuxt square 1:17:37.439 --> 1:17:40.200 he was in my class. 1:17:41.280 --> 1:17:45.880 Yeah, it's it's yeah. The only thing that sort of 1:17:45.920 --> 1:17:49.479 they've jump to defend is capital, I guess, or in 1:17:49.479 --> 1:17:53.840 this case the sort of administrators of the university. And 1:17:54.120 --> 1:17:56.880 so this this could potentially play out for months. What's 1:17:57.000 --> 1:18:01.599 the and it seems like everyone has accepting responsibility such 1:18:01.600 --> 1:18:06.240 a strange word, because like, what's what happened is what's 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:09.120 a question? Really not who's responsible for it? So much? Right, 1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:12.640 Like you can accept responsibility for doing what was a 1:18:12.680 --> 1:18:16.200 protected First Amendment activity, but like you obviously can't accept 1:18:16.200 --> 1:18:21.559 responsibility for assault if you didn't assault somebody. But given 1:18:21.600 --> 1:18:22.200 that no one. 1:18:22.240 --> 1:18:25.840 If sixty seven students had assaulted chance sort of. 1:18:28.960 --> 1:18:33.639 You would think that national Yeah, that would have been yeah, 1:18:33.720 --> 1:18:35.040 that would have been something I think. 1:18:35.120 --> 1:18:38.280 Yeah, that's like a beat down. But that didn't happen. 1:18:38.560 --> 1:18:42.360 So what's the plan for defense, I guess is each case, 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:45.800 like an individual case, can they mount. Can people mount 1:18:45.840 --> 1:18:48.640 a joint defense like the j twenty one people did 1:18:48.640 --> 1:18:52.679 in DC? Do we know yet? How does this work? 1:18:53.280 --> 1:18:55.880 I'm not sure we entirely know yet. I think the 1:18:56.040 --> 1:19:00.439 university can make the decision to consolidate cases that share evidence. 1:19:01.240 --> 1:19:04.800 I don't believe they've made that determination yet. I think 1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:07.840 what they are trying to do now, and this sort 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:10.760 of leads into another part that I think represents a 1:19:10.800 --> 1:19:15.120 degree of sort of apathy, border on bordering on cruelty 1:19:15.200 --> 1:19:18.240 of this process is that we've identified at least eighteen 1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:23.679 graduate students who were either not physically present at all 1:19:24.160 --> 1:19:26.679 or had merely registered for the event without even knowing 1:19:26.720 --> 1:19:30.679 that this would take place, and those people have all 1:19:30.680 --> 1:19:33.080 been charged with the exact same things that everyone who 1:19:33.200 --> 1:19:35.680 was intentionally part of the protest has been. So we 1:19:35.720 --> 1:19:38.000 think that we're at the individual stage where they are 1:19:38.040 --> 1:19:42.080 trying to kind of they know that they they're well 1:19:42.080 --> 1:19:44.760 aware that they caught a bunch of people that had 1:19:44.760 --> 1:19:48.960 no involvement in this. But we think that we're using 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:51.519 really these individual meetings to figure out who those people 1:19:51.560 --> 1:19:55.360 are to the best of their ability, and perhaps further 1:19:55.400 --> 1:19:57.720 down the line, they may decide to try to consolidate 1:19:57.760 --> 1:20:01.920 these cases to expedite the process. But it's it's hard 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:05.880 to say for sure. The again, this the the important 1:20:05.880 --> 1:20:09.960 aspect of this process is the fact that almost every 1:20:10.880 --> 1:20:13.360 element of it, in every step and how that is 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:16.799 carried out, is entirely at the discretion of a handful 1:20:16.920 --> 1:20:22.799 of university administrators. There's no real appeal outside of the system, 1:20:22.920 --> 1:20:27.080 there's no real accountability outside of the system, so they 1:20:27.120 --> 1:20:32.639 can simply implement these things, you know, as as they 1:20:32.680 --> 1:20:33.160 see fit. 1:20:33.520 --> 1:20:34.519 I mean this there was. 1:20:37.479 --> 1:20:41.439 When this eventually first broke there were some former graduate 1:20:41.439 --> 1:20:45.200 students who run on an old radical uc Twitter account 1:20:45.240 --> 1:20:49.000 who shared some write ups from cases of sit ins 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:51.720 that were charged under the same process, I believe at 1:20:51.760 --> 1:20:55.720 Berkeley a couple of years ago, and in that one 1:20:55.960 --> 1:20:59.200 the administrators at the Berkeley campus actually went as far 1:20:59.320 --> 1:21:02.920 as to edit the code of conduct during the process. 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:07.840 Surely you're not responsible for like x post facto edits 1:21:07.840 --> 1:21:09.960 of the code of conduct or were they. 1:21:10.600 --> 1:21:14.960 They were, Well, this was primarily in you know, in 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:17.240 all fairness, if they deserve any of this was that 1:21:17.479 --> 1:21:20.080 particular incident was kind of a logistical thing. So it 1:21:20.160 --> 1:21:24.400 was it was whether or not certain aspects of the 1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:28.040 process could be waived or could be could be extended. 1:21:28.240 --> 1:21:31.559 The deadline could be extended, and someone who didn't have 1:21:31.600 --> 1:21:34.880 the authority to extend it did And when they were 1:21:34.920 --> 1:21:37.360 called on that, they edited the code of conduct after 1:21:37.400 --> 1:21:40.639 the fact to say that, Okay, a designee can extend 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:44.240 the deadline for you know, how this process proceeds. So 1:21:44.600 --> 1:21:47.000 it wasn't that they invented a rule to charge someone 1:21:47.080 --> 1:21:51.040 under but they did edit their own due processes they 1:21:51.040 --> 1:21:51.679 went along. 1:21:51.560 --> 1:21:54.280 Right, Yeah, so you're you might be up against a 1:21:54.320 --> 1:21:55.400 moving target. 1:21:55.160 --> 1:21:55.800 So to speak. 1:21:56.960 --> 1:22:00.599 Did they identify everybody like did? Because I'm assuming people 1:22:00.600 --> 1:22:03.599 didn't use their legal names to register, Like, how were 1:22:03.640 --> 1:22:05.880 they able to identify some of the people to clearly 1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:08.920 the people who were just there as undergraduate alumni and 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:11.920 happened to be graduate students probably did use their real names. 1:22:12.000 --> 1:22:14.960 But do you know how else said in five people. 1:22:15.840 --> 1:22:18.240 Well, I think they did. You know some people did? 1:22:19.479 --> 1:22:21.680 I I assume that I was taught you with my 1:22:22.920 --> 1:22:27.280 real name on the registration and that was simply because I, 1:22:27.439 --> 1:22:31.519 you know, some some people decided to use different names. 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:36.080 I U decided, after weighing the frozen cons that I 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:38.880 decided that it was. You know, I figured that there 1:22:38.920 --> 1:22:40.800 might be it might be a worse situation if that was, 1:22:41.000 --> 1:22:46.240 you know, unraveled, and I didn't think that. Obviously I 1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:48.360 had no plans of assaulting someone, and I did not 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:50.759 assault anyone, So yeah, I had no reason to expect 1:22:50.760 --> 1:22:53.679 that perhaps I needed to take that level of precaution 1:22:53.800 --> 1:22:59.160 with this kind of a peaceful protest action. But we 1:22:59.240 --> 1:23:04.639 believe that they merrily got the names of who did 1:23:05.120 --> 1:23:09.280 who who they'd sided charge from simply registration lists. But 1:23:09.320 --> 1:23:11.000 again the fact and there was a sign in at 1:23:11.000 --> 1:23:12.760 this event where you picked up a name tag, and 1:23:12.800 --> 1:23:14.160 you know, it was kind of a gate. You couldn't 1:23:14.160 --> 1:23:18.679 really get in without doing that. But they still gave 1:23:18.760 --> 1:23:20.920 charges to people who actually, we know for a fact 1:23:21.000 --> 1:23:22.960 were not physically present and have been able to prove 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:25.439 that they were not physically present. So it doesn't seem 1:23:25.479 --> 1:23:28.120 that they even bothered to consult, at least initially, the 1:23:28.160 --> 1:23:30.720 actual sign in list of people who actually showed up 1:23:30.760 --> 1:23:36.040 and checked in, which is also a bit strange. But yeah, 1:23:36.200 --> 1:23:41.080 it seems to be a very haphazard process so far. 1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:43.639 There are people who have been charged who weren't there. 1:23:43.640 --> 1:23:46.000 There are people who were there who haven't you know, 1:23:46.160 --> 1:23:49.599 necessarily been identified at this point in time. So it's 1:23:49.880 --> 1:23:52.080 it's it's a little bit of a mystery. 1:23:52.160 --> 1:23:55.559 Yeah, and we'd love to find out too, because you know, 1:23:55.760 --> 1:23:59.200 it's day for some for some reason, we're able to 1:23:59.320 --> 1:24:04.840 determine use seen union lists will be a massive. 1:24:07.560 --> 1:24:10.320 Yeah. And then already it seems like an unfair labor 1:24:10.360 --> 1:24:13.240 practice and a violation of like First Amendment rights and 1:24:13.400 --> 1:24:18.560 protected First Amendment speech, and jeez, it's yeah, it just 1:24:18.560 --> 1:24:21.599 seems that they're sort of half passing this thing which 1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:25.639 could have devastating consequences for some people, and they they've 1:24:25.680 --> 1:24:30.080 they've just kind of thrown a wide net and sort 1:24:30.080 --> 1:24:32.040 of I guess trying to work out after the fact 1:24:32.040 --> 1:24:35.479 what to do with this. Has it had like a 1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:39.920 chilling effect on on campus organizing on protesting their ongoing 1:24:39.960 --> 1:24:41.040 contract violations. 1:24:41.920 --> 1:24:48.000 No, you can't stare us with sticking the union. Ironically, 1:24:48.920 --> 1:24:53.520 as many listeners ably aware from listening to earlier episodes 1:24:53.560 --> 1:24:55.439 of your podcast, you know, they have a lot of 1:24:55.600 --> 1:25:01.120 tension on campus between the socials, ACI answers and the 1:25:01.240 --> 1:25:04.280 stand you know, getting back to the strike and even 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:08.960 and they have actually gotten are substantially worse in the 1:25:09.040 --> 1:25:13.800 last couple of months based on the vacancy elections that 1:25:13.800 --> 1:25:18.639 are in Peopril. This ironically seems to be a huge 1:25:18.680 --> 1:25:22.680 miscalculation on the part of the university because a lot 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:25.240 of those issues that they haven't gone away have been 1:25:25.640 --> 1:25:30.000 absolutely subsumed in the you know, the injury to one's 1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:34.400 an injury of mentality, so that there's a great amount 1:25:34.439 --> 1:25:37.160 of solidarity. But going into the summer, I don't think 1:25:37.200 --> 1:25:39.200 any work around campus really expected. 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:44.040 Yeah, that's excellent, that's great to hear. So talking of solidarity, 1:25:44.120 --> 1:25:47.160 I guess what can people do to help, Like it 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:49.400 seems like do you have a legal defense fund? And 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:51.880 if you're even allowed to have a lawyer? Is there 1:25:51.920 --> 1:25:53.720 something they can sign? Is there someone they can write 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:56.960 to go ahead? 1:25:57.560 --> 1:25:58.040 Absolutely? 1:25:58.040 --> 1:25:58.680 So there is a. 1:25:58.640 --> 1:26:04.920 Petition around for a kind of students, faculty and community members. 1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:10.639 The address to that is bit dot l Y slash 1:26:11.120 --> 1:26:14.439 U c SB drop the charges. 1:26:14.200 --> 1:26:19.360 One word all lowercase, all our case, Yeah, anything else 1:26:19.439 --> 1:26:23.519 like you would you plan like marches and pigots and 1:26:23.560 --> 1:26:28.360 stuff as the process continues that people could join. Yeah, definitely, 1:26:28.479 --> 1:26:31.800 And and if if you sign that petition, that's one 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:34.320 way where so the petition sort of has the dual 1:26:34.400 --> 1:26:37.960 goal of of sort of getting you know, demonstrating uh 1:26:38.360 --> 1:26:40.960 to the administration that there's a wide level of awareness 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:44.280 of this issue and concern over this issue, but also 1:26:44.400 --> 1:26:46.559 to make sure that anyone who wants to be involved 1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:50.000 in any way that they're able to support us, will 1:26:50.520 --> 1:26:52.360 be able to be kept in the loops. So if 1:26:52.400 --> 1:26:55.200 you use an email the address that you actually read 1:26:55.360 --> 1:26:58.280 when you sign the petition, you will certainly hear about 1:26:59.080 --> 1:27:02.120 any actions that we have. We are still very much 1:27:02.160 --> 1:27:06.360 in the early planning stages. As as Tom alluded to earlier, 1:27:06.520 --> 1:27:09.479 there is you know, a certain as there appears to 1:27:09.479 --> 1:27:12.960 be a certain aspect of strategizing here where the charges 1:27:13.000 --> 1:27:16.040 were given right at the point where campus becomes the 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:20.160 least populated potentially of any time throughout the whole year 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:24.240 except perhaps Christmas. But you know, there's still plenty of 1:27:24.280 --> 1:27:27.680 graduate students here. They are all, you know, just as 1:27:27.680 --> 1:27:31.200 shocked as we are to see this unfolding. So I 1:27:31.200 --> 1:27:34.920 think we can definitely plan for, you know, some kind 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:36.960 of actions to take place this summer. 1:27:38.000 --> 1:27:38.280 Nice. 1:27:38.400 --> 1:27:41.440 Yeah, and maybe we'll get some more student conduct. 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:45.920 Violations, yeah, he be good. If alumni, if if people 1:27:45.920 --> 1:27:47.800 are alumni, Like I know a decent number of UC 1:27:47.920 --> 1:27:50.000 alumni listen, and they reached out when we talked about 1:27:50.000 --> 1:27:51.840 the strike that it would be great if those people 1:27:51.840 --> 1:27:56.360 could leverage that status because they U SEE goes hard 1:27:56.560 --> 1:27:59.960 on alumni for donations and they've stopped calling me now 1:28:00.520 --> 1:28:04.680 they know I'm poor. But I think those of you 1:28:04.720 --> 1:28:06.479 who the u SEE is still calling for the nations, 1:28:06.520 --> 1:28:07.840 you know, that would be a good time to raise 1:28:07.880 --> 1:28:10.559 this or you know, you can email or whatever, an 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:15.400 email the alumni office. But yeah, it's this is obscene 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.960 and ridiculous and obviously like a continuation of union busting 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:23.839 and their fundamental refusal to acknowledge student workers as workers 1:28:23.960 --> 1:28:28.600 apparently and only see people as students. And so, is 1:28:28.600 --> 1:28:31.000 there anything else you want people to know about this? 1:28:31.120 --> 1:28:33.519 You anything else you'd like people to do to show 1:28:33.560 --> 1:28:35.160 solidarity before we wrap up? 1:28:38.000 --> 1:28:39.280 I think the big thing is just, you know, sign 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:40.920 the petition that will help you, you know, kind of 1:28:40.920 --> 1:28:43.080 stay in the loop, especially if you're kind of in 1:28:43.120 --> 1:28:47.960 the local area and are able to join us in 1:28:48.000 --> 1:28:51.519 solidarity for any protests. Yeah. Again, if you're a UC 1:28:51.640 --> 1:28:55.479 alum of any kind, certainly make your thoughts known to 1:28:56.840 --> 1:29:00.559 UCSD because apart from I would say that the two people, 1:29:00.720 --> 1:29:02.559 the two groups of people who have the most power 1:29:02.640 --> 1:29:05.519 to act in decent numbers in the situation our professors 1:29:05.520 --> 1:29:09.120 in alumni and and so that would be Yeah, like 1:29:09.120 --> 1:29:13.040 what you said, that's a huge a huge would be 1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:16.040 a huge point of support. Other than that, I think 1:29:16.200 --> 1:29:18.800 just the way, you know, I've I've been here for 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:24.360 almost six full years now, and you know I've four 1:29:24.400 --> 1:29:26.679 of those were without a union. I'm a student researcher, 1:29:26.720 --> 1:29:28.280 so our union is brand new, and you can go 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:31.160 back to November episode to hear that whole story. But 1:29:31.240 --> 1:29:34.960 my point is that, you know, before we had this 1:29:35.120 --> 1:29:39.920 kind of network and this kind of collective organization to 1:29:39.920 --> 1:29:42.880 protect our rights, a lot of you know, I've seen 1:29:42.880 --> 1:29:44.599 a lot of friends who, through no fault of their own, 1:29:45.400 --> 1:29:48.439 ended up in some kind of you know, one sided 1:29:48.560 --> 1:29:52.200 process where it's them versus the bureaucracy, whether that's you know, 1:29:52.280 --> 1:29:56.360 they're a bad relationship with their professor or or you know, 1:29:56.400 --> 1:29:58.240 any number of things that might have come up along 1:29:58.240 --> 1:30:01.680 the way help issues leading to lower you know, not 1:30:01.880 --> 1:30:04.479 not finishing work on time and you know, getting on 1:30:04.520 --> 1:30:06.559 the bad side of advisors or anything like that. You know, 1:30:07.040 --> 1:30:09.560 it is very easy in the status quo of the 1:30:09.600 --> 1:30:12.479 way the large university works to fall through the cracks 1:30:12.560 --> 1:30:16.080 and to have a bureaucracy act in secrecy to just 1:30:16.160 --> 1:30:19.519 simply kind of remove you without anyone really saying a word. 1:30:19.640 --> 1:30:22.599 So I think the most important thing is to keep 1:30:22.720 --> 1:30:25.439 eyes on this, to make sure the university knows that 1:30:25.479 --> 1:30:29.920 people are watching. That they can try to bring this 1:30:30.000 --> 1:30:32.559 process against us, but it is not going to be 1:30:32.640 --> 1:30:36.720 a pleasant experience because you know, the public and and 1:30:36.880 --> 1:30:39.639 the the the workers here in the community here are 1:30:39.640 --> 1:30:42.000 going to be watching and they're going to be supporting us. 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:44.680 So I think just just keep keep an eye on 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:47.720 the situation if you can, if it's something that that 1:30:47.800 --> 1:30:50.240 you're interested in and able to do, and that that's 1:30:50.240 --> 1:30:53.280 really the biggest way I think to support us. 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:57.439 I will also say that if you are a U 1:30:57.560 --> 1:31:01.759 see men in the state line and you see San Diego, 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:06.880 the easiest way to prevent future alumni events from being 1:31:06.880 --> 1:31:09.160 disrupted actually out of the contract. 1:31:11.000 --> 1:31:13.760 Yes, that would be a fantastic idea. Yeah, I do 1:31:13.880 --> 1:31:21.479 know several professors listen, so it's time to do something. Hopefully, Yeah, 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:24.120 hopefully they will do something in solidarity. But I know 1:31:24.160 --> 1:31:26.720 a few of them listen and have reached out before. Well, 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:28.799 thank you very much. I'm sorry this shit is happening 1:31:28.800 --> 1:31:33.400 to you. We will keep people updated as the long 1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:36.640 process continues. But yeah, I hope, I hope you can 1:31:36.720 --> 1:31:38.720 enjoy your summer without teaching a little bit, without this 1:31:38.800 --> 1:31:39.400 hanging over you. 1:31:40.760 --> 1:31:43.920 We'll try it. That's kind of my motivation is they 1:31:44.040 --> 1:31:45.479 you know, they're using it as a little bit of 1:31:45.520 --> 1:31:48.479 a psychological warfare in terms of live organizing. So I 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:51.160 will just simply choose not to let it bother me, 1:31:51.160 --> 1:31:52.519 at least as much as I can. 1:31:52.840 --> 1:31:58.160 Yeah, all right, thank you very much, Thanks James, thank you. 1:32:14.240 --> 1:32:16.599 Welcome to take It Happened Here, a podcast that now 1:32:16.720 --> 1:32:20.479 more than ever, is about things falling apart. It's been 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:25.080 roughly one year since the DABS decision has annihilated what 1:32:25.200 --> 1:32:28.080 was left of the protection for legal abortions in this country, 1:32:28.640 --> 1:32:35.080 and things have gotten enormously worse in ways that most 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:40.200 people are essentially attempting to ignore or hide from. There are, however, 1:32:40.640 --> 1:32:45.360 a lot of people who cannot essentially run from the 1:32:45.400 --> 1:32:50.280 absolute horror that has been unleashed in this country. And yeah, 1:32:50.320 --> 1:32:52.559 I'm going to be talking today and tomorrow with one 1:32:52.560 --> 1:32:57.000 of those people who is Crystals has the triple crown 1:32:57.040 --> 1:32:59.879 of abortion work of being an abortion worker, a union organizer, 1:32:59.880 --> 1:33:03.960 and on the on the board of an abortion fund. Yeah, 1:33:04.280 --> 1:33:11.120 welcome to the show, Crystal, and I'm sorry. 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:14.360 You're sorry, thank you, thank you so much. Mea, it's 1:33:14.400 --> 1:33:17.720 really nice to be here again. I had a lot 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:20.479 of fun last time, and it's nice to be talking 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:22.760 to you again, even though I only have really horrible Yeah, 1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:26.080 thanks to say for the most part though, there are 1:33:26.160 --> 1:33:30.000 some good things, but it's mostly really awful. 1:33:31.520 --> 1:33:33.760 Yeah. So I guess, I guess that's where I want 1:33:33.760 --> 1:33:38.439 to start, is it's well, okay, I think I'm pretty 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:40.040 sure that so the day this is coming out, it's 1:33:40.080 --> 1:33:42.880 going to be I think two days before the anniversary 1:33:42.880 --> 1:33:45.840 of Dobbs, and I wanted to, I guess first just 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:49.960 ask what it's been like emotionally before we get to 1:33:51.880 --> 1:33:55.519 the sort of like more material consequences of it, if 1:33:55.520 --> 1:33:56.040 that's all right. 1:33:57.200 --> 1:34:02.720 Yeah, So, as abortion worker, this has been an incredibly 1:34:03.000 --> 1:34:07.200 difficult year. And that's that's with the context that things 1:34:07.200 --> 1:34:12.360 were not good before last June twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:15.240 things were not good before then, so you know, we 1:34:15.240 --> 1:34:19.880 were we were really running up against this this impending 1:34:20.800 --> 1:34:22.920 decision that we knew was going to happen, and then 1:34:22.920 --> 1:34:25.160 it ended up happening, and then it was really horrible. 1:34:25.320 --> 1:34:30.320 And honestly, it's been horrible every single day since, and 1:34:30.560 --> 1:34:35.920 it's just gets more horrible every single week. And that's 1:34:36.000 --> 1:34:38.479 you know, I sound so negative saying that, I know, 1:34:38.960 --> 1:34:42.960 but I just know that I'm saying that knowing that 1:34:42.960 --> 1:34:46.519 there's so many amazing people who are doing like abortion 1:34:46.560 --> 1:34:50.000 advocacy and abortion care work and offering abortion services and 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:55.559 practical support for abortion, and it has just been an 1:34:55.680 --> 1:35:01.479 incredibly heavy year for us. We've seen, we've all witnessed 1:35:01.520 --> 1:35:05.040 a lot in the last year, and we're all carrying 1:35:05.080 --> 1:35:09.960 a lot, and it's it's it's just hard. And I'm 1:35:10.000 --> 1:35:14.439 really grateful for everyone that I work with and that 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:19.479 I'm in community with, but it's it's been traumatizing. I 1:35:19.520 --> 1:35:22.640 know that, you know, it's really easy to say. I 1:35:22.680 --> 1:35:25.120 think like, oh, you know, this is traumatic, and that's traumatic, 1:35:25.200 --> 1:35:29.800 But I don't know what else, what other word to 1:35:29.920 --> 1:35:34.080 use to having to having had witnessed everything that we've 1:35:34.080 --> 1:35:36.559 witnessed in the last year and to know that there's 1:35:36.560 --> 1:35:38.800 no end in sight. It is incredibly traumatic. It's like 1:35:38.840 --> 1:35:41.360 a national trauma. We're all sharing it together. 1:35:42.400 --> 1:35:46.200 Yeah, okay, I guess we should get into sort of 1:35:46.520 --> 1:35:48.840 what the things that you've been seeing have looked like. 1:35:49.000 --> 1:35:52.120 And I think one of the best ways to do this, 1:35:52.200 --> 1:35:55.920 I think is by just talking about like what the 1:35:56.040 --> 1:35:58.959 process is like of trying to get someone in abortion, 1:35:59.040 --> 1:36:03.240 because it's gotten so much harder and so much more dangerous. 1:36:03.600 --> 1:36:04.320 Very rapidly. 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:05.559 Yeah. 1:36:05.600 --> 1:36:10.960 Absolutely, the things have changed a lot in the last year, 1:36:11.080 --> 1:36:14.679 because you know, if we're if we're starting from when 1:36:14.760 --> 1:36:18.760 things really hit the fan June twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, 1:36:18.760 --> 1:36:21.400 even though things were getting worse before that, because you know, 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:26.120 for example, there was the band in Texas that started 1:36:26.600 --> 1:36:29.519 on September first and in twenty twenty one, so that 1:36:29.840 --> 1:36:31.599 you know, things I saw a lot in my head. 1:36:31.640 --> 1:36:33.800 If I can point like when did I really know 1:36:34.200 --> 1:36:37.280 that we were we were fucked and we were going 1:36:37.320 --> 1:36:39.080 to like we were going to see the worst outcome, 1:36:39.640 --> 1:36:41.920 I would say on September first, twenty twenty one. 1:36:42.240 --> 1:36:42.400 But. 1:36:45.840 --> 1:36:49.000 We saw the initial trigger bands go into effect immediately 1:36:49.000 --> 1:36:53.080 after the Dobbs decision, So you know, like for example, Texas, 1:36:53.160 --> 1:36:56.000 the bands went into effect immediately. There were other states 1:36:56.040 --> 1:36:58.440 that it was a little bit more delayed, like for example, Ohio. 1:36:58.880 --> 1:37:00.479 And then there's also been a lot of back and 1:37:00.520 --> 1:37:05.320 forth because some states and which they're having bands now 1:37:05.439 --> 1:37:07.880 those are currently paused and they're being worked through the 1:37:07.960 --> 1:37:10.519 legal system, and o there are new bands. There's pretty 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:12.680 much been a new band, it feels like pretty much 1:37:12.720 --> 1:37:15.040 every week, to the point where I know that I 1:37:15.120 --> 1:37:17.400 just named a couple of states just now, and just 1:37:17.439 --> 1:37:20.719 to be cautious, I just want to say that, you know, look, 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:22.960 you can go to like abortionfinder dot org or I 1:37:23.080 --> 1:37:25.719 need ana dot Com and like look up your state 1:37:25.800 --> 1:37:28.679 to see, you know, if you have access in your state. 1:37:29.080 --> 1:37:31.479 It changes so frequently that you really do have to 1:37:31.520 --> 1:37:34.200 kind of rely on those reliable websites like abortion Finder 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:37.120 and I need an a to really make sure that 1:37:37.160 --> 1:37:40.160 you're up to date. So you know, don't like if 1:37:40.200 --> 1:37:42.479 I mentioned a state, you know, just it might have 1:37:42.560 --> 1:37:44.479 been there might have been something in effect months ago 1:37:44.560 --> 1:37:46.679 and I'm just like alluding to it. So just definitely 1:37:46.680 --> 1:37:48.960 rely on those resources that exist to see what's up 1:37:48.960 --> 1:37:53.360 to date now. But yeah, things have been incredibly back 1:37:53.360 --> 1:37:55.080 and forth for a lot of states in the last year. 1:37:55.640 --> 1:38:00.599 And it's it's just there are holes in access, deserts 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:03.880 and access that just keep widening and widening and widening. 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:08.880 The most devastating being recently this This was just this 1:38:09.040 --> 1:38:12.559 was a really bad day for for me and and 1:38:12.600 --> 1:38:16.240 a lot of my coworkers when there was the vote 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:20.160 in Florida, and and the Florida Band is not yet 1:38:20.160 --> 1:38:26.240 an effect, but we'll eventually be going into effect. And 1:38:26.240 --> 1:38:28.719 and that was really like one of the last places 1:38:28.720 --> 1:38:31.680 that you could access an abortion in the Southeast. So 1:38:31.840 --> 1:38:34.360 now when you look at a map, which I do 1:38:34.479 --> 1:38:37.479 a lot, I I now have to look at a 1:38:37.520 --> 1:38:41.680 map every single day for work and look at like 1:38:41.680 --> 1:38:44.360 you know, individual state maps, and like I'm on Google 1:38:44.360 --> 1:38:49.080 Maps constantly. But there there's there are places where you 1:38:49.200 --> 1:38:51.240 have no choice but to travel to get an abortion 1:38:51.439 --> 1:38:55.760 or access abortion services online if that is possible for you, 1:38:56.520 --> 1:39:02.080 and you know there there are resources available where if 1:39:02.160 --> 1:39:06.840 you as an individual need an abortion and you keep 1:39:06.840 --> 1:39:10.200 looking and you search and you reach out to people, 1:39:10.640 --> 1:39:13.559 those resources are out there, you know. So practical support 1:39:13.560 --> 1:39:19.240 groups exist, funding exists, Clinics and service providers will bend 1:39:19.240 --> 1:39:22.040 over backwards to get you to your appointment and help 1:39:22.080 --> 1:39:26.240 you access these services, so you know there is help 1:39:26.320 --> 1:39:31.440 out there, but it is it's really difficult, and it's 1:39:32.040 --> 1:39:34.479 it takes a lot of work to access an appointment. 1:39:36.280 --> 1:39:41.959 So everything's it takes longer to get to an appointment, 1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:45.000 it takes you have to travel further, you end up 1:39:45.000 --> 1:39:47.519 paying so much more money, Like everything is just so 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:50.479 much more expensive than it was a year ago, because 1:39:50.880 --> 1:39:54.040 now you're not just paying, you know, for the procedure 1:39:54.080 --> 1:39:56.280 cost and then maybe like a little bit of gas 1:39:56.280 --> 1:39:59.320 money to the appointment. You're having to figure out plane tickets, hotels, 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:03.479 ask money for whatever, like really long distances. I've seen 1:40:03.640 --> 1:40:09.280 patients driving twelve hours to get to an appointment. Yeah, 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:12.040 And I can talk more about like what that process 1:40:12.040 --> 1:40:13.680 looks like too, but I guess I just wanted to 1:40:13.680 --> 1:40:17.120 give like a general overview of it's just getting harder 1:40:17.120 --> 1:40:24.920 to access, longer distances traveling, and and and more expensive. 1:40:25.439 --> 1:40:28.800 And luckily there is people. There are people there to 1:40:28.840 --> 1:40:33.360 help and there is support, but it requires a ton 1:40:33.400 --> 1:40:36.960 of work, a ton a ton of work in order 1:40:36.960 --> 1:40:38.280 to make sure that people are getting the health care 1:40:38.280 --> 1:40:38.800 that they need. 1:40:40.800 --> 1:40:44.519 Yeah, and I guess, well, Okay, two things. One, I 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:46.679 want to I want to start the abortion fund plug 1:40:46.840 --> 1:40:51.240 like right here, because you know, yeah, yeah, as the 1:40:51.240 --> 1:40:53.519 cost of this increase is that means, you know, like 1:40:53.680 --> 1:40:56.240 abortion funds need more money in order to be able 1:40:56.280 --> 1:40:58.800 to keep doing this because every dollar of it they 1:40:58.800 --> 1:41:01.880 don't have is you know, potentially is like I'm not 1:41:01.920 --> 1:41:03.720 even touched, Like is another person who's not gonna be 1:41:03.720 --> 1:41:04.439 able to get an abortion? 1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:11.400 Yeah, every every dollar matters. Yeah, And and I know 1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:13.280 that I feel like a lot of leftists sometimes get 1:41:13.280 --> 1:41:15.960 a little tired of hearing about, oh, donate to your 1:41:15.960 --> 1:41:18.840 abortion foot, donate to an abortion fund, because like they're like, oh, this, 1:41:18.840 --> 1:41:23.439 this is not radical. But abortion funds are the only 1:41:23.520 --> 1:41:27.759 way in which abortions are happening right now because it costs, 1:41:27.800 --> 1:41:29.840 like you might have to spend like two thousand to 1:41:29.880 --> 1:41:32.200 three thousand dollars on a person sometimes in order to 1:41:32.240 --> 1:41:35.080 make sure that they get healthcare. And that's just one person. 1:41:35.640 --> 1:41:39.120 So the only reason that abortions are still happening is 1:41:39.160 --> 1:41:42.120 because one people are putting that work in and make 1:41:42.160 --> 1:41:44.519 sure that they happen, and like, you know, those people 1:41:44.560 --> 1:41:49.599 are amazing and also pay, like people seeking healthcare are amazing. 1:41:49.800 --> 1:41:52.040 They're incredibly brave to be doing what they're doing, to 1:41:52.080 --> 1:41:54.599 be working so hard to get healthcare, to be navigating 1:41:54.640 --> 1:41:56.240 all of these obstacles that you have to be like, 1:41:56.240 --> 1:41:58.320 that's what you have to be strong to do that. 1:41:58.320 --> 1:42:01.320 That's an incredibly brave thing to do, having to fly 1:42:01.479 --> 1:42:04.280 in an airplane if you've never flown before to access 1:42:04.320 --> 1:42:06.599 health care that you know you need. Like you're you're 1:42:06.600 --> 1:42:11.240 being really strong and you're being amazing, but you don't 1:42:11.400 --> 1:42:14.000 you shouldn't have to do that. And so it's a 1:42:14.000 --> 1:42:15.840 lot of money. So thank god that the money is there, 1:42:15.840 --> 1:42:19.880 because if the money wasn't there, then people would not 1:42:19.920 --> 1:42:21.880 be able to be helped. So I know that, like 1:42:22.080 --> 1:42:23.760 you know, oh, donate to abortion fund, don'tate to an 1:42:23.800 --> 1:42:26.160 abortion pun but really, like if you want people to 1:42:26.200 --> 1:42:29.640 continue to get abortions now, not just waiting until like 1:42:29.680 --> 1:42:32.320 November in an election, then you need to make sure 1:42:32.360 --> 1:42:33.800 that the money is there for people to do that 1:42:33.880 --> 1:42:35.120 because it is expensive. 1:42:35.400 --> 1:42:37.840 Yeah, we're talking to something like two or three thousand dollars, right, 1:42:38.680 --> 1:42:41.880 Can you person listening to this, could you right now 1:42:42.560 --> 1:42:44.680 spend three thousand dollars or something and be fine? 1:42:45.000 --> 1:42:45.160 Right? 1:42:45.200 --> 1:42:48.519 And the answer is probably not, but and you know, 1:42:48.560 --> 1:42:50.639 and there's a there are like a lot of people 1:42:50.800 --> 1:42:52.880 in this country who need abortions, who are like way 1:42:52.960 --> 1:42:54.800 less well off than you are, Like that is a 1:42:54.880 --> 1:42:56.640 shit tone of like that that is a lot of 1:42:56.640 --> 1:43:01.439 money for me, like podcaster, that is, you know, a 1:43:01.880 --> 1:43:04.760 crippling amount of money for a lot of the people 1:43:04.800 --> 1:43:08.000 who need this. And I don't know, I mean, I 1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:12.400 think there's something really bleak about the where society is structured, 1:43:12.439 --> 1:43:15.000 where your freedom and your bodily autonomy are dependent on 1:43:15.040 --> 1:43:20.240 having money. But that's basically where we're at, right Like 1:43:20.280 --> 1:43:23.880 that's 'eah's that's the way the system works right now. 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:26.400 And yeah, there's a part of me that like doesn't 1:43:26.400 --> 1:43:28.240 want to lean in and like I mean, like you know, 1:43:28.320 --> 1:43:30.800 I'm I'm a socialist. I don't want to be like, oh, 1:43:31.000 --> 1:43:33.120 you know, money, money, money, but like that is the 1:43:33.200 --> 1:43:36.760 only reason people are getting healthcare is because there is 1:43:36.920 --> 1:43:40.720 money available, and people are banding together to pool that 1:43:40.840 --> 1:43:42.960 money to make it available to people who need it. 1:43:43.080 --> 1:43:47.840 So I'm just like, thank god, I'm so glad because 1:43:47.880 --> 1:43:50.200 otherwise I would not be able to get people to 1:43:50.280 --> 1:43:54.080 their appointments. And I can like talk out that process too, 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:56.000 like you know, what does it look like now? 1:43:56.080 --> 1:43:58.120 Yeah, yeah, let's yeah, let's actually go through this. 1:43:58.520 --> 1:43:58.760 Yeah. 1:43:58.760 --> 1:44:01.200 I want to start off with like what I was 1:44:01.240 --> 1:44:03.320 when I started. So I've been working in abortion care 1:44:03.479 --> 1:44:08.880 for six years now, and when I started, I was 1:44:09.080 --> 1:44:12.120 working in a call center and I would schedule appointments. 1:44:12.320 --> 1:44:16.280 So I would get a call and I'd collect information 1:44:16.760 --> 1:44:20.880 and I would book the appointment and i'd say, you know, 1:44:20.960 --> 1:44:23.800 thank you for as you know, for reaching out to 1:44:23.880 --> 1:44:25.559 us for your services, and we will see you at 1:44:25.560 --> 1:44:29.440 your appointment. And you know, the calls were long because 1:44:29.960 --> 1:44:32.080 you know, we'd have to work out financial assistance. And 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:35.559 then also abortion care is often just like a really 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:39.479 intimate type of healthcare to be accessing, so there's a 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:41.840 lot of factors sometimes to discuss with the person that 1:44:41.920 --> 1:44:46.880 was accessing services, and it could be really complicated with 1:44:46.920 --> 1:44:50.599 all of those factors. So you know, like it's always 1:44:50.640 --> 1:44:56.320 been pretty labor intensive to schedule someone sometimes, but it 1:44:56.360 --> 1:45:01.599 was it was fairly you know, fairly short phone call 1:45:01.720 --> 1:45:03.559 for the most part most of the time, and then 1:45:03.560 --> 1:45:05.360 you just get somebody scheduled and then you move on 1:45:05.520 --> 1:45:09.360 and you schedule someone else. And that was six years ago. 1:45:09.400 --> 1:45:12.720 For me. And I'm not saying that more difficult situations 1:45:13.320 --> 1:45:17.120 didn't come up, because of course abortion access was not 1:45:17.200 --> 1:45:20.719 good six years ago either, but the way in which 1:45:20.720 --> 1:45:24.240 it's changed is so marked, and I feel like there's 1:45:24.240 --> 1:45:29.160 so many people have witnesses where it went from from 1:45:29.560 --> 1:45:33.840 that to it taking weeks to work with one individual 1:45:34.160 --> 1:45:36.800 to get them to an appointment because there is no 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:46.479 clinic within eight hours driving distance to them, and so 1:45:46.720 --> 1:45:49.160 the whole intake process and the whole just like getting 1:45:49.160 --> 1:45:51.040 the funds together, I guess I'll just walk you through 1:45:51.080 --> 1:45:53.320 it because I just I don't even know how else 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:57.439 to relate. So let's say, just like hypothetically, you know, 1:45:57.479 --> 1:45:59.960 you're an individual who is living in a band state 1:46:01.120 --> 1:46:04.479 and they're the closest actual brick and mortar abortion clinic 1:46:04.560 --> 1:46:08.280 to is nine hours away, which is the situation for 1:46:08.479 --> 1:46:11.080 so many people that I talk to and that are 1:46:11.080 --> 1:46:14.639 living in the United States. And let's say you don't 1:46:14.680 --> 1:46:19.200 have a car, and you have children, and you don't 1:46:19.240 --> 1:46:21.120 want everybody to know your business, so you like, you 1:46:21.120 --> 1:46:23.000 don't want everybody in your family knowing that you need 1:46:23.000 --> 1:46:25.800 an abortion and that you're looking for that type of 1:46:25.840 --> 1:46:27.840 health care, so you're trying to do what you can 1:46:27.920 --> 1:46:32.240 by yourself, and you're googling, and you're looking at different resources. 1:46:32.800 --> 1:46:37.280 And what I witness a lot as a healthcare worker 1:46:37.320 --> 1:46:40.000 helping someone through this process is there's a lot of 1:46:40.000 --> 1:46:42.360 dead ends when people are trying to find someone that 1:46:42.360 --> 1:46:45.360 can provide them with those abortion services. They you know, 1:46:45.400 --> 1:46:47.920 they're looking at the clinics that are close to them, 1:46:47.920 --> 1:46:49.400 and they're seeing that they're nine hours away and they 1:46:49.439 --> 1:46:51.880 can't get to them. They're looking up fight tickets and 1:46:51.880 --> 1:46:54.120 they're seeing it's like eight hundred dollars for their and 1:46:54.200 --> 1:46:56.080 back and they can't afford that on top of the 1:46:56.120 --> 1:46:59.439 procedure cost. And let's just say hypothetically they're early in 1:46:59.479 --> 1:47:03.280 the pregnancy and the procedure might cost maybe four hundred, 1:47:03.280 --> 1:47:05.400 five hundred and six hundred dollars, which is still a 1:47:05.439 --> 1:47:07.640 lot of money. That's still a lot of money, So 1:47:07.680 --> 1:47:11.400 I don't want to pretend like that's not But on 1:47:11.439 --> 1:47:13.960 top of that, then there's also the plane tickets, trying 1:47:13.960 --> 1:47:17.280 to find a way to the airport and all of that, 1:47:17.760 --> 1:47:20.280 and they're just reaching a lot of dead ends like 1:47:20.320 --> 1:47:22.479 I can't possibly go here, and I can't possibly go here, 1:47:22.920 --> 1:47:26.040 and okay, like maybe I can go online and order 1:47:26.080 --> 1:47:29.960 some medication, but it might not arrive for several weeks, 1:47:30.000 --> 1:47:31.559 and what if it doesn't arrive? I mean, that's like 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:33.840 a really scary thing to be doing, like knowing you 1:47:33.880 --> 1:47:37.639 need healthcare and knowing that you're relying on the mail 1:47:37.960 --> 1:47:40.600 and like hoping that you get your packet and that 1:47:40.640 --> 1:47:43.600 you can trust wherever you're purchasing the medication from. And 1:47:43.680 --> 1:47:45.840 if you can't even really like let's say that you're 1:47:46.200 --> 1:47:51.000 you're further along and you may be are like twenty weeks, 1:47:51.080 --> 1:47:53.920 and your options are incredibly more limited, and you're paying 1:47:53.960 --> 1:47:56.320 a lot more if you don't have insurance coverage with 1:47:56.320 --> 1:47:58.960 most people don't, so you're paying like maybe up to 1:47:59.600 --> 1:48:04.360 on like two thousand and three thousand, four thousand for 1:48:04.439 --> 1:48:09.519 a procedure. And you just need help, and you need 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:12.200 to ask for help, which is already like a not 1:48:12.240 --> 1:48:15.040 a good spot to be in because you're accessing health 1:48:15.040 --> 1:48:17.040 care and you have no choice but to ask for 1:48:17.040 --> 1:48:18.360 help and you shouldn't have to. 1:48:18.560 --> 1:48:22.440 That's really fucking hard, right, Like I mean, I think 1:48:22.760 --> 1:48:24.920 on an intellectual level, I think everyone has an experience 1:48:24.920 --> 1:48:26.240 which is how hard it is to ask for help 1:48:26.280 --> 1:48:29.840 for stuff that's like incredibly minor, and then you're doing 1:48:29.920 --> 1:48:37.439 this for a really intimate, like healthcare decision, Yeah. 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:40.320 Like super personal, like your decision might be based on 1:48:40.400 --> 1:48:42.240 like a bunch of factors that are just like really 1:48:42.280 --> 1:48:44.200 personal for you. And you wish you didn't have to 1:48:44.200 --> 1:48:46.639 tell people, or you wish you didn't have to talk 1:48:46.680 --> 1:48:50.519 to so many people about an appointment because you know, 1:48:50.960 --> 1:48:53.240 for most healthcare appointments, even though healthcare in general is 1:48:53.280 --> 1:48:55.519 not easy to access, you just call and you schedule 1:48:55.520 --> 1:48:58.160 the appointment and maybe you have to pay a copay 1:48:58.200 --> 1:49:00.960 and that's annoying, and then maybe the appoint is four 1:49:01.040 --> 1:49:07.040 months out and that's awful too, But you know, it's 1:49:07.479 --> 1:49:11.479 this just makes everything worse for the individual. So let's 1:49:11.479 --> 1:49:13.040 just say, like, you know, they keep trying, and they 1:49:13.080 --> 1:49:16.320 keep trying, and they keep looking, and you know, let's 1:49:16.320 --> 1:49:18.920 say they get to me, and I'm somebody who I do. 1:49:19.280 --> 1:49:21.880 I do scheduling now for patients who need to travel, 1:49:22.520 --> 1:49:26.160 and I help them get financial assistance for the cost 1:49:26.200 --> 1:49:29.439 of travel and for their appointment. So a lot of 1:49:29.439 --> 1:49:33.000 times when I get in touch with someone, they've already 1:49:33.080 --> 1:49:35.720 encountered so many dead ends. And when I am not 1:49:36.160 --> 1:49:39.559 the dead end. They're filled with so much relief that 1:49:39.880 --> 1:49:42.479 a lot of times this happens almost every day now, 1:49:43.920 --> 1:49:46.560 someone will get in touch with me and they'll just 1:49:46.600 --> 1:49:49.840 start crying when I tell them that I can help them. 1:49:50.120 --> 1:49:52.840 And that is not a good feeling, because I feel 1:49:52.840 --> 1:49:56.240 like maybe in like other types of work, or maybe 1:49:56.280 --> 1:49:59.519 even like before, like maybe years ago, like when somebody 1:49:59.560 --> 1:50:02.639 was like great, it might feel good, like, oh, I'm 1:50:02.640 --> 1:50:05.880 so glad I can help them. But when someone who 1:50:06.080 --> 1:50:09.519 is like a caregiver, a worker, somebody who needs health 1:50:09.520 --> 1:50:13.160 care and they're scared and they're crying out of relief, 1:50:13.560 --> 1:50:15.559 it does not feel good. It makes me feel really 1:50:15.560 --> 1:50:18.759 horrible because they have already been robbed of their dignity 1:50:18.760 --> 1:50:22.000 by the time that I talk to them, and I 1:50:22.040 --> 1:50:26.760 hate that. It's just it's disgusting that they've already been 1:50:27.000 --> 1:50:32.760 put in this situation that is dehumanizing, and I just 1:50:33.320 --> 1:50:36.400 it doesn't feel good when they cry in relief. It 1:50:36.520 --> 1:50:39.800 just does not feel good. So, just continuing this the 1:50:39.920 --> 1:50:44.320 tale of you know, this patient accessing an appointment. So 1:50:44.320 --> 1:50:47.320 so let's say you know they can get an appointment 1:50:47.360 --> 1:50:49.559 in a clinic, it's not in their state because there's 1:50:49.600 --> 1:50:51.639 no it's not legal to provide an abortion in their state, 1:50:52.000 --> 1:50:57.639 so they have to travel two states away and get 1:50:57.640 --> 1:51:01.439 to the clinic. So the flight tickets are eight hundred 1:51:01.520 --> 1:51:04.120 dollars and the cost of the appointment is four hundred. 1:51:04.240 --> 1:51:08.879 So already that's twelve hundred dollars, which luckily, I am 1:51:09.040 --> 1:51:12.760 so grateful and glad that I have the ability to 1:51:12.880 --> 1:51:15.960 arrange financial assistance for that, and I can work with 1:51:16.000 --> 1:51:21.759 individuals to do that. Thank thank the Lord, like they honestly, 1:51:21.800 --> 1:51:24.880 I shouldn't, no, not thank the Lord, thank the people 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:28.200 the Lord. Yeah, yeah, like thank these people so much. 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:31.639 I'm just like so glad they exist and they're there 1:51:31.720 --> 1:51:34.599 and that they're such hard workers. Oh my god. But yeah, 1:51:34.640 --> 1:51:36.800 So that's twelve hundred dollars that we can that we 1:51:36.840 --> 1:51:39.880 can look into covering so that way the person pays 1:51:40.000 --> 1:51:42.240 whatever they are capable of paying, even if that's nothing, 1:51:43.080 --> 1:51:46.920 because you know, some of these people like like they're 1:51:47.160 --> 1:51:49.120 living paycheck to paycheck because they're taking care of their 1:51:49.160 --> 1:51:52.720 children and like their family is coming first. That is 1:51:52.800 --> 1:51:54.760 what is happening, is they are taking care of their 1:51:54.760 --> 1:51:58.160 family and they are being a good caregiver. So the 1:51:58.280 --> 1:52:00.760 you know, the money is going to food on the tape. 1:52:01.080 --> 1:52:04.479 So that's that's like twelve hundred dollars. But then there's 1:52:04.479 --> 1:52:06.120 a couple other things you have to factor in, is 1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:08.080 like does this person need a hotel because that can 1:52:08.080 --> 1:52:10.639 be an additional what like one hundred and two hundred 1:52:11.120 --> 1:52:15.400 depending And does this person have a car? Can they 1:52:15.439 --> 1:52:19.120 pay for the gas money, especially if they're driving, because 1:52:19.120 --> 1:52:21.920 like let's say they can get to an airport, but 1:52:21.960 --> 1:52:24.760 the airport is still two hours away. You still need 1:52:24.760 --> 1:52:26.639 gas money. You still have to park at the airport. 1:52:26.680 --> 1:52:29.840 You gotta pay for airport parking. And then you get 1:52:29.840 --> 1:52:32.599 on the air You get on the airplane and you 1:52:32.920 --> 1:52:36.439 fly over to the state where your appointment is. You 1:52:36.479 --> 1:52:39.240 get off the airplane, and then there is surge pricing 1:52:39.360 --> 1:52:42.600 for Lyft and Uber and let's say the Uber, it 1:52:42.640 --> 1:52:44.800 can be anywhere from like maybe fifty dollars or one 1:52:44.880 --> 1:52:48.360 hundred dollars depending on what's going on. And that is 1:52:48.960 --> 1:52:50.639 just more money that needs to be spent. 1:52:51.600 --> 1:52:53.320 The fact, the fact that they're going to hit by 1:52:53.320 --> 1:52:56.120 fucking Uber surge prices is so monstrous. 1:52:57.120 --> 1:53:00.120 Yeah, And like airports in general, like like getting out 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:02.759 out of an airport using a ride shair is pretty terrible, 1:53:02.800 --> 1:53:06.639 but yeah, you got to pay the surge pricing, so 1:53:06.880 --> 1:53:08.559 and then you get to the clinic and then you 1:53:08.600 --> 1:53:10.800 have your services, which is just really like when you're 1:53:10.840 --> 1:53:13.200 accessing healthcare. I mean, we're all we all access healthcare. 1:53:13.240 --> 1:53:16.080 We're all human beings who need health care. Like, you 1:53:16.160 --> 1:53:19.520 really want to be able to focus on that appointment 1:53:19.640 --> 1:53:21.280 and the care you're getting, But at this point, they've 1:53:21.280 --> 1:53:24.080 already traveled, like they've been on a journey. So they 1:53:24.160 --> 1:53:26.040 arrived to the appointment and get the health care that 1:53:26.120 --> 1:53:28.280 really should have been what they should have been able 1:53:28.320 --> 1:53:31.759 to focus on, and then they got to go back, 1:53:32.040 --> 1:53:33.519 so then they got to do the whole thing. They 1:53:33.520 --> 1:53:36.360 got through, go through airport security, get back, get the 1:53:36.479 --> 1:53:38.280 uber from the airport, and then let's say they have 1:53:38.280 --> 1:53:41.040 a two hour flight back, and that's I mean, that 1:53:41.080 --> 1:53:43.400 could be done all than one day, but sometimes it 1:53:43.479 --> 1:53:46.559 can't be, Like sometimes it's just not possible to do 1:53:46.600 --> 1:53:49.559 all that in one day. And that's like another obstacle 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:52.000 that I come across is that a lot a lot. 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:54.479 I would say, most of the patients I talk to 1:53:54.960 --> 1:53:57.600 are already parents, so they're like, I have to be 1:53:57.680 --> 1:54:01.559 back that evening because I don't have childcare overnight, Like 1:54:01.600 --> 1:54:05.559 I don't have overnight childcare. So then I'm like trying 1:54:05.640 --> 1:54:11.639 to get them back the same evening because because they're 1:54:11.640 --> 1:54:13.760 a parent, and then like, can you imagine just like 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:17.120 you know, just like imagine your own parents, like your 1:54:17.120 --> 1:54:20.519 own like mom just like zipping away for one day 1:54:20.640 --> 1:54:23.759 to go get like a really simple health care procedure, 1:54:24.000 --> 1:54:25.760 and then they have to like rush back and you're 1:54:25.760 --> 1:54:29.560 already in bed, and it's just so stressful. It's so 1:54:29.600 --> 1:54:34.480 stressful for the for the parent, for any any family 1:54:34.520 --> 1:54:36.800 members that might be like kind of like sharing this 1:54:36.840 --> 1:54:40.720 whole stressful experience with them, any friends, any loved ones. 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:42.160 And it's just you have. 1:54:42.120 --> 1:54:43.360 To find time off too. 1:54:44.000 --> 1:54:48.120 Oh yeah, I didn't even get into that. Yeah, so 1:54:48.520 --> 1:54:49.760 I don't know, like I just I said a lot 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:51.640 of numbers just now, so I know, I started off 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:53.240 with twelve hundred, and then I tacked on a a 1:54:53.280 --> 1:54:54.800 bunch of extra things. Oh and I didn't mention that 1:54:54.840 --> 1:54:57.280 you're gonna have to eat that day, you know, like, yeah, 1:54:56.920 --> 1:54:59.760 you're in another state and you have to get food. 1:55:01.000 --> 1:55:04.360 So like it easily for one person starts racking up 1:55:04.400 --> 1:55:10.120 until like over two thousand and that's why abortion ones 1:55:10.120 --> 1:55:14.440 are really important. But that's also that's a lot. That's 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:18.040 a lot, and that's a lot on top of like 1:55:18.080 --> 1:55:24.760 an intimate healthcare appointment. And you know, just just outlining 1:55:25.520 --> 1:55:29.760 how much someone has to do to get to an appointment, 1:55:29.840 --> 1:55:32.720 there's even a couple other factors to consider too, because 1:55:33.200 --> 1:55:36.520 a lot of these people who are having to fly 1:55:36.960 --> 1:55:40.280 or drive these long distances to their appointment, they would 1:55:40.280 --> 1:55:44.320 have never been in that situation otherwise. So you know, 1:55:44.400 --> 1:55:46.680 these are individuals who have never flown on a plane before, 1:55:46.680 --> 1:55:48.560 maybe because like they've just never been in a situation 1:55:48.640 --> 1:55:50.760 in which they needed to fly on a plane. They've 1:55:50.760 --> 1:55:53.320 always been able to drive to like vacations and everything, 1:55:53.440 --> 1:55:55.920 like you know, like oh, family vacation, you drive maybe 1:55:55.960 --> 1:55:57.880 like four hours and you know, you have fun, and 1:55:57.920 --> 1:55:59.120 you just don't want to go on a plane. It 1:55:59.160 --> 1:56:01.520 makes you nervous. That's a lot of people live like that. 1:56:01.880 --> 1:56:03.880 So all of a sudden, these people have no choice, like, oh, 1:56:03.880 --> 1:56:05.800 you have to get on a plane and otherwise you're 1:56:05.840 --> 1:56:08.800 gonna have to drive twelve thirteen hours. So they get 1:56:08.800 --> 1:56:10.560 on a plane and they're scared because they've never done 1:56:10.560 --> 1:56:12.560 it before. Because they're already stressed out that they're going 1:56:12.600 --> 1:56:16.880 to a doctor's appointment, They're already stressed out that they're 1:56:17.000 --> 1:56:20.560 relying on basically strangers to get them there, which is 1:56:20.680 --> 1:56:22.480 that's like a whole other topic is like you have 1:56:22.520 --> 1:56:25.839 to rely on strangers, and that's you know, people shouldn't 1:56:25.840 --> 1:56:31.000 have to do that. And then also you have to 1:56:31.120 --> 1:56:34.000 navigate an airport. So a lot of my job has 1:56:34.080 --> 1:56:36.560 become looking at maps, Like I'm looking at a map, 1:56:36.600 --> 1:56:38.360 like how far away is this someone from a clinic? 1:56:38.440 --> 1:56:40.600 How far away are they from an airport? You know, 1:56:40.680 --> 1:56:43.240 can they go here? Can they go here? But I'm 1:56:43.240 --> 1:56:45.560 also on the phone with people kind of describing how 1:56:45.600 --> 1:56:49.160 airports work, like here's what airport security looks like. People 1:56:49.160 --> 1:56:51.240 are afraid of TSA, and I don't blame them. I 1:56:51.280 --> 1:56:55.080 fucking hate TSA. They're always passholes. Fuck them. They make 1:56:55.120 --> 1:56:58.440 everything worse. You got to go through TSA and you 1:56:58.520 --> 1:57:00.520 gotta yeah, I gotta know how to get your tickets, 1:57:00.520 --> 1:57:02.080 and you got to know how to where, you know, 1:57:02.160 --> 1:57:04.280 to get to a terminal. A lot of people don't 1:57:04.400 --> 1:57:06.240 like if you've never flown before, they might not know 1:57:06.320 --> 1:57:09.520 that they're supposed to get on that little training you know, 1:57:09.840 --> 1:57:11.440 you know what I'm talking about, Like you will train, 1:57:11.520 --> 1:57:13.520 you go to your terminal, and like a lot of 1:57:13.560 --> 1:57:16.560 people don't know that, and all of a sudden they 1:57:16.600 --> 1:57:20.080 have to find out really fast and I have to 1:57:20.120 --> 1:57:22.880 explain it. And that's part of their abortion care. Part 1:57:22.920 --> 1:57:25.400 of people's abortion care is now talking them through an airport, 1:57:28.720 --> 1:57:35.920 and that that has sucks. That's become like the daily experience. 1:57:36.760 --> 1:57:39.400 That's become the daily experience where it's like, yeah, six 1:57:39.480 --> 1:57:41.160 years ago, these used to be like, Okay, I'm gonna 1:57:41.160 --> 1:57:43.400 bookr appointment. You're going to come in. Your appointment's going 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:45.880 to be maybe like I don't know, five hours, and 1:57:45.920 --> 1:57:48.480 then you and then you leave and you drive home 1:57:48.520 --> 1:57:52.560 and maybe you're only driving like thirty minutes, maybe an hour, 1:57:52.680 --> 1:57:56.360 maybe two hours. And now we're having people who you know, 1:57:57.120 --> 1:58:00.440 flights or it's a twelve hour drive, who are a 1:58:00.520 --> 1:58:03.520 flight there, who are a flight back. The flight lands 1:58:03.520 --> 1:58:05.960 at like midnight, you know, like and then your kids 1:58:06.000 --> 1:58:10.640 are in bed, and it's like it's so much and 1:58:11.760 --> 1:58:17.320 you can see why people give up, and people are 1:58:17.320 --> 1:58:24.640 giving up. In fact, the numbers are the numbers are 1:58:24.680 --> 1:58:29.560 hard to hear. I know that there was a study 1:58:29.560 --> 1:58:31.760 that showed that in the first six months after the 1:58:31.800 --> 1:58:34.760 DABS decision, thirty six thousand people who wanted an abortion 1:58:34.800 --> 1:58:38.080 couldn't get one, and that is only in the first 1:58:38.440 --> 1:58:41.200 six months, So I'm sure that that number is much 1:58:41.520 --> 1:58:43.920 I'm like dreading seeing new numbers, but I'm sure the 1:58:43.960 --> 1:58:46.960 number is much higher now. So when you're faced with 1:58:47.040 --> 1:58:50.280 all of this, people do give up because it is 1:58:50.320 --> 1:58:54.360 too much, which is the whole point of all of 1:58:54.400 --> 1:58:56.440 the bands and everything that's happened. The point was to 1:58:56.440 --> 1:58:59.160 make people give up. And I think that a lot 1:58:59.200 --> 1:59:02.880 of leftists maybe don't want to acknowledge that people are 1:59:02.920 --> 1:59:08.320 giving up. They want to believe that people will keep 1:59:08.400 --> 1:59:11.080 trying and they'll find those resources and they will get 1:59:11.120 --> 1:59:14.920 to the appointments because help is available, but not everyone 1:59:14.960 --> 1:59:17.800 finds the help that is out there, and not everyone 1:59:17.800 --> 1:59:20.920 can make it work. Like there's a lot of reasons 1:59:20.920 --> 1:59:24.360 why people can't do this ridiculous thing I just described. 1:59:24.520 --> 1:59:24.600 And. 1:59:26.440 --> 1:59:30.360 Then as abortion care workers, we see them give up. 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:34.360 And I think that's kind of been the biggest one 1:59:34.400 --> 1:59:37.240 of the biggest changes for me is just how often 1:59:37.240 --> 1:59:39.480 I see people give up and just having to witness 1:59:39.480 --> 1:59:40.920 that because it's like, well, what does it mean when 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:43.640 someone gives up? What does it mean when someone stops 1:59:44.080 --> 1:59:46.560 trying to get the healthcare that they're looking for? They're 1:59:46.640 --> 1:59:50.640 changing their entire plans, like you know, because like everyone, 1:59:51.400 --> 1:59:53.560 not everyone, but a lot of people have like ideas 1:59:53.560 --> 1:59:55.760 of what they're doing with their life, and they're like, 1:59:55.800 --> 1:59:58.200 I want to have this many kids, I want to 1:59:58.240 --> 2:00:01.520 have them at these times, and I want to be 2:00:01.560 --> 2:00:03.600 with this person, or I don't want to be with anyone, 2:00:03.880 --> 2:00:06.800 and I want to work this job and go to 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:09.520 the school or whatever. You know, you're making plans and 2:00:09.560 --> 2:00:11.680 then all of a sudden, because of this situation, you 2:00:11.800 --> 2:00:17.680 have to change your plans. And there's even worse things 2:00:17.720 --> 2:00:20.080 happening than that. But I think that that's bad enough, 2:00:20.120 --> 2:00:24.840 is that you can't get what you need and you 2:00:24.920 --> 2:00:32.640 just have to just change your life and accept defeat 2:00:33.240 --> 2:00:35.560 and take a path that you did not want to take. 2:00:36.120 --> 2:00:40.320 And it's fucking sad. And it's more than sad sad 2:00:40.360 --> 2:00:41.960 as an understatement, I don't know what word it is. 2:00:42.000 --> 2:00:45.800 It's horrible because this has been taken from them, The 2:00:45.880 --> 2:00:50.040 choice has been taken from them completely, and that's that 2:00:50.160 --> 2:00:52.280 is going to have effects that we are going to 2:00:52.280 --> 2:00:56.120 see for decades to come, and that's kind of hard 2:00:56.120 --> 2:00:57.720 to wrap your brain around, like what does it mean 2:00:57.800 --> 2:01:02.240 for that and tens of thousands of people to not 2:01:02.320 --> 2:01:05.280 have had the health care that they need. It means 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:08.440 that we're going to see like the negative health effects 2:01:08.440 --> 2:01:10.360 for years to come because that is a lot of people. 2:01:11.120 --> 2:01:12.840 That is a lot of that's a lot of people, 2:01:12.880 --> 2:01:15.600 and that's going to impact people in really long term 2:01:15.640 --> 2:01:19.480 ways for a really long time. And knowing that is 2:01:19.920 --> 2:01:22.640 really I don't know, words are kind of failing me. Yeah, 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:27.680 it's like it's like beyond traumatic, beyond Yeah, I'm sure 2:01:27.720 --> 2:01:30.200 there will be studies in years from now, I'm sure, 2:01:30.280 --> 2:01:33.960 but like it's been a year and I can say, 2:01:34.040 --> 2:01:36.120 like it's those it's gonna the data is going to 2:01:36.120 --> 2:01:38.520 be really bad. The data is going to be really 2:01:38.560 --> 2:01:41.080 bad based on everything that I've already seen. 2:01:41.120 --> 2:01:47.000 So suffering is not something you can quantify. And you know, 2:01:47.080 --> 2:01:51.720 the amount of human suffering that's been unleashed by this is, yeah, 2:01:51.920 --> 2:01:55.960 like one of the worst crimes that's happened in the century, 2:01:56.080 --> 2:01:58.640 full of like unspeakable crimes. 2:01:59.600 --> 2:02:03.440 And this looks different for each individual, you know, because 2:02:03.480 --> 2:02:07.120 it's just the whole the whole. It's autonomy. You're losing 2:02:07.120 --> 2:02:09.680 control over your life and your body, and your family 2:02:09.840 --> 2:02:13.200 and your and there's just so many things, and it 2:02:13.240 --> 2:02:16.320 looks different for each person. So for some people it's 2:02:16.320 --> 2:02:18.240 like you have to just fucking change everything that you're 2:02:18.240 --> 2:02:21.000 fucking doing. You can't control your life or your body. 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:24.120 And then for other people it can be even worse 2:02:24.200 --> 2:02:30.320 than that. Where where you are, you're risking death because 2:02:30.320 --> 2:02:33.680 pregnancy is incredibly dangerous. So there are people who who 2:02:33.720 --> 2:02:38.200 are putting themselves in really dangerous situations with their pregnancies, 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:39.920 and they're being denied the care that they need. So 2:02:40.080 --> 2:02:44.720 you see people who are being forced to risk their 2:02:44.720 --> 2:02:47.240 life because they can't get the care they need, and 2:02:47.520 --> 2:02:51.680 people are losing their body parts and their fertility. Because 2:02:51.920 --> 2:02:54.680 recently I read a story and then there's these horror 2:02:54.720 --> 2:02:57.800 stories every day, which I like, I read them because 2:02:57.800 --> 2:02:59.760 I want to know everything that's happening, but I also 2:02:59.800 --> 2:03:01.760 am so resentful that like every day there's like a 2:03:01.760 --> 2:03:06.840 new like horror story about these services. But recently there 2:03:06.880 --> 2:03:09.240 was someone there was somebody who wasn't able to get 2:03:09.680 --> 2:03:12.200 timely abortion care it had to continue pregnancy, ended up 2:03:12.240 --> 2:03:16.800 losing her uterus, even though she did not she wanted 2:03:16.800 --> 2:03:19.440 to have more kids. She like wanted to continue having children. 2:03:19.560 --> 2:03:21.320 So all of a sudden, because she couldn't get an abortion, 2:03:21.440 --> 2:03:23.360 she couldn't continue to expand her family in the way 2:03:23.400 --> 2:03:23.920 that she wanted. 2:03:24.360 --> 2:03:27.560 She sterilized effectively, Yeah, exactly, like by the state. 2:03:27.600 --> 2:03:34.320 Which yeah, so it's the suffering is is so different 2:03:34.320 --> 2:03:38.360 for each individual and so intimate to them there, and 2:03:38.480 --> 2:03:40.200 it's it's going all the way up to like just 2:03:40.240 --> 2:03:45.240 like state mandated, just like body horror basically, and and 2:03:45.840 --> 2:03:49.200 it's deadly. It's really deadly, which is hard to talk about. 2:03:49.600 --> 2:03:52.800 Yeah, I mean, you know, just having said that, should 2:03:52.840 --> 2:03:57.600 we talk a little bit about Gabriela Gonzalez and how 2:03:58.680 --> 2:04:00.800 you know, the other thing about abortion care is that 2:04:01.200 --> 2:04:04.720 it's not just that pregnancy is dangerous physically, it's that pregnancy, 2:04:04.720 --> 2:04:08.920 like pregnancy is really dangerous socially because you know, we 2:04:09.000 --> 2:04:13.560 live in an incredibly patriarchal society, and that means patriarchal 2:04:13.640 --> 2:04:15.760 violence is a real threat. 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:22.040 Yeah, and this is always this Unfortunately, one component of 2:04:22.080 --> 2:04:28.560 abortion care is it often involves interpersonal violence or more 2:04:28.640 --> 2:04:30.920 you know, a lot of people say domestic violence and 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:34.160 it's because a lot of partners will try to control 2:04:34.760 --> 2:04:39.600 someone through through pregnancy and it's a tactic of abuse 2:04:39.720 --> 2:04:43.400 that that does come up. And if somebody does get 2:04:43.440 --> 2:04:46.880 pregnant while they are in that kind of relationship, and 2:04:48.680 --> 2:04:51.280 that's that's a big thing. You know, a lot of 2:04:51.320 --> 2:04:53.880 times they it makes sense that if they're trying to 2:04:53.880 --> 2:04:58.200 get away from someone that you know, they don't want 2:04:58.240 --> 2:05:01.840 to continue the pregnancy. So and then that might be 2:05:01.840 --> 2:05:05.400 something that the partner might be intimately involved in where 2:05:05.560 --> 2:05:07.440 either they know about it or they don't know about it, 2:05:07.480 --> 2:05:09.040 and if they know about it, they could be pressuring 2:05:09.040 --> 2:05:12.640 the individual. It's unfortunately something that is often a component 2:05:12.800 --> 2:05:16.080 of this healthcare is that that is a factor that 2:05:16.120 --> 2:05:20.400 the person seeking healthcare is dealing with. So in terms 2:05:20.440 --> 2:05:24.320 of and all of this is I'm like, this is 2:05:24.360 --> 2:05:28.680 all really really triggering stuff too, and so trigger warning. 2:05:28.800 --> 2:05:33.280 But with Gabrielle A Gonzalez, that was something that happened. 2:05:33.320 --> 2:05:36.000 I think it was in it was in May. I 2:05:36.000 --> 2:05:38.400 remember it was in mid May. Because the news hit 2:05:39.640 --> 2:05:43.720 it hit hard for us for like a lot of 2:05:43.760 --> 2:05:47.240 abortion care workers and practical support you know, advocates, because 2:05:48.000 --> 2:05:52.440 it's the thing that we we try so hard to 2:05:52.840 --> 2:05:56.440 keep our patients safe. When they disclose things to us, 2:05:56.520 --> 2:06:00.440 you know they we the patient safety is the number 2:06:00.440 --> 2:06:04.040 one priority. And the fact of the matter is these 2:06:04.120 --> 2:06:07.280 bands make it harder for people to access the services safely. 2:06:07.320 --> 2:06:10.520 So in the case of Gabriella Gonzalez, I just want 2:06:10.520 --> 2:06:14.160 to say her name. She was a mother of three children. 2:06:14.840 --> 2:06:17.360 She was twenty six years old when she was murdered 2:06:17.760 --> 2:06:21.520 by her ex partner after she accessed an abortion in 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:26.160 another state. So she was located in Texas, she had 2:06:26.200 --> 2:06:30.200 to travel to Colorado to get an abortion, and when 2:06:30.200 --> 2:06:35.320 she came back, unfortunately, she was murdered by her ex. 2:06:36.800 --> 2:06:43.840 And just like a couple, just like a couple of 2:06:43.880 --> 2:06:48.360 things on that is. It's just if you are trying 2:06:48.400 --> 2:06:50.880 to be discreet and you're trying to take care of 2:06:50.920 --> 2:06:54.040 your health care, it's hard to keep things private if 2:06:54.040 --> 2:06:58.000 you have to fly to another or drive to another state. 2:06:58.440 --> 2:07:04.040 It's just this situation is is just so much more 2:07:04.040 --> 2:07:06.480 complicated than it would be if you could access those 2:07:06.520 --> 2:07:10.080 services at home or near where you are. It's easier 2:07:10.080 --> 2:07:15.320 to keep that information private, it's easier to handle that 2:07:15.360 --> 2:07:21.080 situation in a timely way. So I feel like I mean, 2:07:21.120 --> 2:07:25.960 our country is failing everyone pretty much. But I'm torn 2:07:26.000 --> 2:07:30.440 apart and devastated and this was this news hit so 2:07:30.520 --> 2:07:37.080 hard to learn about Gabriella Gonzalez and what happened to her, 2:07:38.080 --> 2:07:42.600 and knowing that, you know, we try so hard to 2:07:42.720 --> 2:07:49.120 keep our patients safe and being careful about communications, being 2:07:49.280 --> 2:07:51.720 careful about what we hand patients, even like there are 2:07:51.880 --> 2:07:55.400 sometimes like it's like, well, I cannot give you any handouts, 2:07:55.480 --> 2:07:57.440 So here's how we're going to provide you the information, 2:07:58.680 --> 2:08:01.960 because it's you know, people can't even have that information 2:08:02.040 --> 2:08:05.200 on their phone or or in their purse on their person, 2:08:05.960 --> 2:08:08.240 and trying so hard and then just having like the 2:08:08.280 --> 2:08:11.560 state defy you in every way, and and it's just 2:08:11.640 --> 2:08:14.560 really it's trapping people in the in this these violent 2:08:14.600 --> 2:08:18.959 situations that you say, I mean, these situations have always existed, 2:08:19.360 --> 2:08:23.560 but ever since these abortion bands went into effect, it 2:08:23.560 --> 2:08:25.320 is made them even even more dangerous. 2:08:25.440 --> 2:08:28.640 Yeah, And I mean, you know, and I think in 2:08:28.720 --> 2:08:32.000 terms of just sort of getting at what the people 2:08:32.000 --> 2:08:34.440 who support this stuff believe, like they know about this, 2:08:34.720 --> 2:08:36.800 like this is this is what they want to happen, right, 2:08:36.920 --> 2:08:39.360 Like this is you know, this is this is what 2:08:39.400 --> 2:08:42.200 this is what this is what it actually means to 2:08:42.280 --> 2:08:45.040 have an ideology that's based on patriarchal control. Is this 2:08:45.120 --> 2:08:48.160 ship yep, it's this like this is this this violence 2:08:48.200 --> 2:08:50.560 and that like this kind of coercion is what they want. 2:08:50.600 --> 2:08:52.400 These are also you know, like again these are there's 2:08:52.400 --> 2:08:54.040 a reason. These are also people who want to end 2:08:54.080 --> 2:08:58.040 out fall divorce, right, like they like their entire ideology 2:08:58.200 --> 2:09:01.800 is based on men being able to and flip violence, yep. 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:05.240 And and you know, and these are what pro life people. 2:09:05.600 --> 2:09:08.320 And you know, gabriel A Gonzalez was a mother of 2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:12.160 three children. She was a mother and her children needed 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:17.520 her and now she's gone. And and I feel like 2:09:18.320 --> 2:09:23.680 the abortion bands and the like the demolition of abortion 2:09:23.760 --> 2:09:26.600 services in the United States has led to this situation 2:09:26.840 --> 2:09:29.360 and will continue to lead to more situations like this. 2:09:29.840 --> 2:09:34.840 And they're all devastating and and I hate it. I 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:40.960 just it's fucking awful. It's so fucking bad. And I 2:09:41.000 --> 2:09:42.800 know that, like, like where do I go from there 2:09:44.920 --> 2:09:47.520 after saying like the worst in. 2:09:47.440 --> 2:09:52.200 The world, and then yeah, I don't know, I mean, 2:09:52.320 --> 2:09:54.120 I guess I guess the thing I can say after that, 2:09:54.200 --> 2:09:56.960 right is like, if you want to live in a 2:09:57.000 --> 2:10:04.160 world that is not just utterly controlled by the most 2:10:04.160 --> 2:10:07.840 evil people who've ever lived by, you know, that is 2:10:07.840 --> 2:10:11.960 defined by enormous entries of human suffering. Like these people 2:10:13.280 --> 2:10:17.760 their politics, to logistical support networks, their parties, like the 2:10:18.240 --> 2:10:20.400 entire political apparatus that is doing it needs to be 2:10:20.400 --> 2:10:24.120 completely destroyed, like like raised to the ground in a 2:10:24.160 --> 2:10:28.600 way that it like literally can never recover. And that 2:10:28.720 --> 2:10:31.040 is the thing that is possible, right it is, it 2:10:31.080 --> 2:10:33.640 is possible to completely destroy political movements. It is possible 2:10:33.680 --> 2:10:36.760 to just drive them so far underground that people forget 2:10:36.800 --> 2:10:40.000 they even existed. And you know, and then that has 2:10:40.080 --> 2:10:43.800 happened to movements before that were you know, as powerful 2:10:43.840 --> 2:10:47.640 as this one. So it can be done. It's just 2:10:47.800 --> 2:10:52.560 it requires, you know, I mean, it requires a level 2:10:52.600 --> 2:10:55.120 of political will that most that you know, a politicians 2:10:55.120 --> 2:10:57.680 don't give a shit about because this is not something 2:10:57.720 --> 2:10:58.760 that affects them. 2:10:59.080 --> 2:11:01.440 Speaking of politicians, it's not giving a shit. Going back 2:11:01.440 --> 2:11:04.160 to like, you know, the initial reflection on like, you know, 2:11:04.240 --> 2:11:07.600 it's it's been a year since Roe v. Way was 2:11:07.640 --> 2:11:12.840 overturned in the Dobbs decision, and what has happened, Like 2:11:12.920 --> 2:11:17.640 what have the politicians done to alleviate all of this 2:11:17.840 --> 2:11:20.920 suffering that you know, I've been talking about, and it's 2:11:21.000 --> 2:11:24.400 it's very little. Like the biggest win that we've had 2:11:25.000 --> 2:11:29.680 is mif a pristone not being banned, which is horrible 2:11:29.720 --> 2:11:32.400 because like, oh and then that was that whole yeah thing, 2:11:32.520 --> 2:11:34.440 that whole step, but that's like a whole other thing. 2:11:34.560 --> 2:11:39.560 But that is such a blique win, especially since it's 2:11:39.600 --> 2:11:42.200 not even gone and we're going to see this issue 2:11:42.200 --> 2:11:45.840 come back with mif a pristone. And and that's another 2:11:45.880 --> 2:11:49.400 thing too, because if that does happen, like misapristal is amazing, 2:11:49.400 --> 2:11:55.080 and misa prostal is very effective, and taking mesaprostal only 2:11:55.400 --> 2:12:00.560 for abortion is effective, but it's also more symptomatic and 2:12:00.840 --> 2:12:03.080 given just like you know, like we were talking about 2:12:03.120 --> 2:12:07.440 people like just people being exposed to violence, people having 2:12:07.440 --> 2:12:10.760 to act doing just like moving mountains and having to 2:12:10.880 --> 2:12:14.400 cross mountains and go on a journey to get these 2:12:14.640 --> 2:12:19.280 abortion services and literally what can be often a thirty 2:12:19.320 --> 2:12:23.520 minute to an hour appointment if you're you know, lucky. 2:12:23.520 --> 2:12:25.879 It's not always like that, but anyways, like these services 2:12:25.880 --> 2:12:27.880 aren't complicated, like you know, like it's not like a 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:33.400 like these y, yeah, we have the technology, Like like 2:12:34.000 --> 2:12:36.200 to get medication, you just go and you get the medication. 2:12:36.240 --> 2:12:37.560 They tell you how to take the medication, and they 2:12:37.600 --> 2:12:39.400 make sure they can prescribe you the medication. You get it. 2:12:39.480 --> 2:12:42.160 It's not like that can be like a fifteen minute appointment. 2:12:42.320 --> 2:12:46.840 And then if you're if you're like under a certain 2:12:46.880 --> 2:12:50.080 gestational age, a first time master abortion can be only 2:12:50.120 --> 2:12:52.879 like five minutes. Like this, This is not complicated healthcare. 2:12:53.080 --> 2:12:57.600 This is very simple healthcare. And you're adding all these 2:12:57.640 --> 2:13:00.160 extra factors in so when you're when you have to 2:13:00.200 --> 2:13:03.160 prescribe someone in medication that is more symptomatic, which is 2:13:03.240 --> 2:13:07.040 just adding like it's just one more complication. And the 2:13:07.120 --> 2:13:10.040 attack on abortion services has always been death by a 2:13:10.080 --> 2:13:14.560 thousand cuts, and this is just like one more cut 2:13:14.560 --> 2:13:16.600 that we really really do not need. So but that 2:13:16.760 --> 2:13:19.240 was a win and and and it's like that is 2:13:19.280 --> 2:13:22.120 such a shitty win. And then you have some states 2:13:22.120 --> 2:13:24.640 that are becoming like sanctuary states where they're like, you 2:13:24.680 --> 2:13:27.080 know where I hate I hate saying that word. I'm 2:13:27.080 --> 2:13:29.800 so sorry. I didn't mean to say sanctuary states because 2:13:29.840 --> 2:13:32.480 it's really not that, but they're saying like we're a 2:13:32.520 --> 2:13:34.400 safe place for you to get an abortion and we're 2:13:34.440 --> 2:13:36.600 never we're always gonna have abortion services. And it's like, 2:13:36.680 --> 2:13:40.040 what does that mean if you have so many patients 2:13:40.040 --> 2:13:42.640 traveling from other states that you're booking five weeks A. 2:13:42.680 --> 2:13:44.640 Yeah, well they won't and it's like they won't fucking 2:13:44.760 --> 2:13:46.960 fund it, right, Like, yes, this is the thing that 2:13:47.000 --> 2:13:49.960 like I'm just like unbelievably fucking angry about, right is it, 2:13:50.000 --> 2:13:54.240 like you know, daubs in terms of just the raw 2:13:54.440 --> 2:13:57.400 sort of politics of it, right, in terms of pure 2:13:57.400 --> 2:13:59.320 getting votes, this is the best thing that's ever fucking 2:13:59.320 --> 2:14:00.680 happened in the DEM Party. 2:14:00.920 --> 2:14:03.360 Right, they have been reaping the fucking electoral rewards for this. 2:14:03.680 --> 2:14:08.120 And what have they been fucking doing for fifty goddamn years, 2:14:08.160 --> 2:14:11.520 like nothing? Right, and this and this is something that like, Okay, 2:14:11.560 --> 2:14:12.760 you know, if if if you look at the way 2:14:12.800 --> 2:14:15.800 the right has been like fucking dealing with this, right, 2:14:15.880 --> 2:14:18.760 it's at every single step, right, you know, they they're 2:14:18.760 --> 2:14:22.680 constantly involved in lawsuits, they they're they're constantly pushing the 2:14:22.760 --> 2:14:25.800 boundaries and doing literally whatever they can within the within 2:14:26.000 --> 2:14:27.360 and without the bounds. 2:14:27.120 --> 2:14:27.400 Of the law. 2:14:27.480 --> 2:14:27.560 Right. 2:14:27.600 --> 2:14:29.600 I mean, we've talked about the sort of vigilante campaigns, right, 2:14:29.600 --> 2:14:31.840 but like you know, they're like doing things like like 2:14:31.840 --> 2:14:33.560 like you know, I mean the one of the classic 2:14:33.560 --> 2:14:37.040 ones is requiring like facilities that do abortions to have 2:14:37.080 --> 2:14:39.280 like a specific length of hallway or like like with 2:14:39.400 --> 2:14:42.240 a different Yeah, and like they've been doing all this 2:14:42.320 --> 2:14:44.400 fucking legal bullshit to make it as hard as as 2:14:44.480 --> 2:14:47.160 humanly possible. Right, is there a Democrat version of this? 2:14:47.320 --> 2:14:47.600 No? 2:14:47.600 --> 2:14:49.240 No, they fucking they came to the height of min 2:14:49.440 --> 2:14:51.440 Like even even the states that have the ship, it's 2:14:51.520 --> 2:14:53.960 like they're they're not fucking funding it, right, It's like 2:14:54.000 --> 2:14:55.800 they're not they're not fucking paying like they they they're 2:14:55.800 --> 2:14:57.600 ship that they could be doing, and they just they 2:14:57.600 --> 2:14:59.440 don't care because this is this is a you know, 2:14:59.480 --> 2:15:01.360 this is a very seeing They can trot out in 2:15:01.400 --> 2:15:03.400 their fucking fundraising meetings and they can get people to 2:15:03.440 --> 2:15:06.120 vote for them, but they're not gonna they're not gonna 2:15:06.120 --> 2:15:08.200 wage this kind of campaign that the Republicans have been like, 2:15:08.200 --> 2:15:10.440 they're not gonna wage a pro access campaign on the 2:15:10.480 --> 2:15:13.040 scale at all, Right, but they're not gonna not gonna 2:15:13.040 --> 2:15:14.840 wage on the scale the Republicans have been doing to 2:15:14.880 --> 2:15:18.600 like make sure that you fucking can't get these services. 2:15:19.400 --> 2:15:23.160 Yeah, it's like these blue states they're not safe, and 2:15:23.680 --> 2:15:27.000 there's like the ridiculous there was like stockpiling mesapostal or 2:15:27.000 --> 2:15:29.080 whatever some states were saying they were doing. And it's like, 2:15:29.120 --> 2:15:31.760 if you're really looking out for people and you're really 2:15:31.760 --> 2:15:37.120 trying to defy these awful human rights violating laws, then 2:15:37.320 --> 2:15:39.320 send the medication to band states. 2:15:39.760 --> 2:15:42.200 Yeah, I mean I help patients. 2:15:41.760 --> 2:15:48.440 In band states, like don't abandon Texas, don't abandon Louisiana 2:15:48.480 --> 2:15:53.280 and Mississippi, like help them because like where are they going. 2:15:53.400 --> 2:15:58.080 They're going to blue states. Like there's like there's like 2:15:58.160 --> 2:15:59.880 a ripple effect. And I feel like I talked about 2:15:59.880 --> 2:16:02.640 this last time when I was on talking to you, 2:16:03.120 --> 2:16:06.520 where Okay, you can't get these healthcare services near you, 2:16:06.600 --> 2:16:09.440 so you go somewhere else, and the people locally can't 2:16:09.480 --> 2:16:11.440 get those services, so then they have to travel further 2:16:11.440 --> 2:16:13.880 and there's like this ripple effect to the point where 2:16:13.920 --> 2:16:16.160 like I'm sure that like blue states are seeing more 2:16:16.680 --> 2:16:18.560 appointments than ever. And I know for a fact like 2:16:18.560 --> 2:16:21.840 here in Pennsylvania, here in Pittsburgh, where literally we're seeing 2:16:21.840 --> 2:16:24.080 we're always seeing people in Ohio just because they'll even 2:16:24.080 --> 2:16:27.120 though abortion is legal in Ohio. It's just there's a 2:16:27.160 --> 2:16:30.760 lot of restrictions there, so it's a little tricky. But 2:16:30.840 --> 2:16:33.840 then there's like West Virginia and like Kentucky and Tennessee, 2:16:34.320 --> 2:16:38.600 and you're seeing so many more patients so you're booking 2:16:38.600 --> 2:16:41.600 out further. And it's like if you're let's say you're 2:16:41.680 --> 2:16:44.160 eight weeks and you find out, so if you're eight 2:16:44.160 --> 2:16:48.760 weeks pregnant, then you're you've only missed your period like 2:16:48.800 --> 2:16:51.320 for like a couple of weeks. It's really like, you know, 2:16:50.959 --> 2:16:53.240 you can find out you're eight weeks, right, You're like, 2:16:53.320 --> 2:16:58.000 you just found out, really, and you call somewhere near 2:16:58.080 --> 2:17:00.400 you to get an appointment, but the appointment is five 2:17:00.440 --> 2:17:02.080 weeks away, so all of a sudden, you go from 2:17:02.120 --> 2:17:05.200 eight weeks to thirteen weeks. It's like, what the heck. 2:17:05.280 --> 2:17:10.680 It's like yeah, like it's totally different options, like and 2:17:10.800 --> 2:17:12.840 that's happening in blue states, and it's like, so this 2:17:12.920 --> 2:17:19.840 is impacting literally everyone, but no politicians or even like 2:17:19.879 --> 2:17:24.199 big talking heads are really doing anything about it because 2:17:24.200 --> 2:17:27.959 it just gets worse. There's just more bands constantly. 2:17:28.280 --> 2:17:29.800 And I want to talk a bit about this the 2:17:29.840 --> 2:17:32.720 sanctuary bullshit too, because I like this is like a 2:17:32.760 --> 2:17:35.920 third fucking issue that we've seen politicians be like, oh, 2:17:35.959 --> 2:17:37.720 we're a sanctuary state. It's like, yeah, okay, Like I 2:17:38.160 --> 2:17:40.760 remember when I was doing fucking anti ice raids stuff, right, 2:17:41.040 --> 2:17:42.400 do you know? Do you do you know how much 2:17:42.480 --> 2:17:45.040 how much time we fucking spent trying to stop raids 2:17:45.240 --> 2:17:48.160 like ice raids in saying in quote unquote sanctuary states, 2:17:48.200 --> 2:17:50.720 Like it's bullshit. It's always been fucking bullshit. They don't 2:17:50.800 --> 2:17:54.240 mean it, and you know, all of the fucking like 2:17:54.840 --> 2:17:57.160 this is the sanctuary state thing is just like a 2:17:57.200 --> 2:17:59.920 thing that they fucking say so that they can you know, 2:18:00.160 --> 2:18:02.120 just sort of like like rally the based support and 2:18:02.200 --> 2:18:04.680 like build towards whatever presidential run they're going to do 2:18:04.720 --> 2:18:09.360 in twenty like thirty two whatever. And it doesn't. It's 2:18:09.400 --> 2:18:13.000 not it's not helping people and it's just not going to. 2:18:13.840 --> 2:18:16.080 Yeah, it's not. It's it's not a strategy that works. 2:18:16.400 --> 2:18:20.400 And I mean it's just entirely selfish. It's it's it's 2:18:21.040 --> 2:18:24.680 it's rage inducing because it's you know, how do I 2:18:24.720 --> 2:18:27.640 feel as an abortion worker. You know, it's been a 2:18:27.720 --> 2:18:31.600 year since Robi Way was overturned, and I have to 2:18:31.600 --> 2:18:36.360 witness all of this needless suffering and trauma and people's 2:18:36.480 --> 2:18:40.879 safety being compromised and people being hurt and people giving 2:18:40.920 --> 2:18:44.680 up and and then these politicians are not doing anything. 2:18:45.560 --> 2:18:48.360 I am so I'm full of so much anger that 2:18:48.440 --> 2:18:52.120 it's it's sometimes numbing, Like sometimes I'm just so angry 2:18:52.640 --> 2:18:55.840 that I kind of feel nothing like it kind of 2:18:55.879 --> 2:19:00.840 like it's like it's so far down the spectrum that 2:19:01.000 --> 2:19:03.520 I like just it just turns into like a non 2:19:03.560 --> 2:19:06.959 emotion basically, like so much anger that it's blinding and 2:19:07.000 --> 2:19:12.200 feels like nothing, And I don't even know what. I 2:19:12.240 --> 2:19:13.440 don't even know what to do with it other than 2:19:13.480 --> 2:19:16.640 focus into just like continuing to provide healthcare where it's like, oh, 2:19:16.640 --> 2:19:18.120 I'm so angry and I'm so mad and I feel 2:19:18.200 --> 2:19:20.440 so terrible. I Am going to make sure that this 2:19:20.480 --> 2:19:22.760 person gets an abortion. Like that's what I can do. 2:19:23.320 --> 2:19:25.840 I can I can get people to an appointment, and 2:19:26.800 --> 2:19:30.000 I don't I want to do more. I want to 2:19:30.400 --> 2:19:34.080 go and and just like raise everything to the ground 2:19:34.080 --> 2:19:36.720 and be like, like you were saying, but I can't 2:19:36.760 --> 2:19:38.000 be the only one doing that, Like we all have 2:19:38.040 --> 2:19:41.520 to do yeah, like we all have to raise everything 2:19:41.560 --> 2:19:44.720 in the ground because this is so untenable and so 2:19:44.840 --> 2:19:52.600 unfair and and is creating such a huge ripple of 2:19:52.680 --> 2:19:55.240 suffering that we're all going to be experiencing for decades. 2:19:55.360 --> 2:19:59.560 And I'm really bitter about it. I'm super angry and 2:19:59.640 --> 2:20:06.199 super bitter, and and it's not going to get better too, 2:20:06.800 --> 2:20:11.040 it's not I have to be honest about that, because 2:20:11.080 --> 2:20:12.760 if I'm not, then I'm not going to be prepared. 2:20:13.680 --> 2:20:17.600 But we're going to continue to see these bands, They're 2:20:18.120 --> 2:20:21.080 not going away right now. Then if a person issue 2:20:21.080 --> 2:20:27.240 is going to come back and we're going to keep 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:29.520 seeing it and it's spreading, and you know, I know 2:20:29.560 --> 2:20:33.640 that that's like a whole other topic too, but the 2:20:33.720 --> 2:20:38.200 ripple effects are really immense. And every time someone is hurt, 2:20:39.400 --> 2:20:42.080 well every individual, like when I heard that thirty six 2:20:42.120 --> 2:20:46.240 thousand number, that really hurt, yeah, because you know, I 2:20:46.280 --> 2:20:48.000 know how many patients I've seen in the last year, 2:20:48.000 --> 2:20:50.480 and it is it's less than thirty six thousand. So like, 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:52.880 every time I help someone, I'm so happy and I'm like, yes, 2:20:52.959 --> 2:20:56.000 you know, I helped this person get healthcare, I'm really happy. 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:57.640 And then I look at that thirty six thousand number 2:20:57.640 --> 2:20:59.400 and I'm like, oh my god, there are so many 2:20:59.440 --> 2:21:02.040 other people who were not able to find help. And 2:21:02.160 --> 2:21:04.480 I'm and I don't like, like I said, like, I 2:21:04.480 --> 2:21:07.720 don't even feel good when someone is like thanking me 2:21:08.200 --> 2:21:15.039 and they oftentimes people will say, people will say to me, 2:21:15.520 --> 2:21:18.960 I hear this almost every day. You have no idea 2:21:19.959 --> 2:21:22.320 how grateful and thankful I am. And it's like, I 2:21:22.360 --> 2:21:26.520 really don't. I don't know because I'm not in your shoes. 2:21:27.080 --> 2:21:33.000 And I feel I'm and I'm sorry that I that 2:21:33.360 --> 2:21:37.280 you had to come to me like this, like I'm sorry, 2:21:37.360 --> 2:21:40.680 I feel I'm so sad in like such a deep 2:21:40.959 --> 2:21:46.240 visceral way that when someone is saying like you'll never 2:21:46.280 --> 2:21:48.320 know know how thankful I am that they just weren't 2:21:48.320 --> 2:21:51.520 able to go to their local doctor's office or even 2:21:51.520 --> 2:21:54.440 have the medication mail to them and and have it 2:21:54.480 --> 2:21:56.080 like come in like two days and just take it 2:21:56.120 --> 2:21:58.120 and follow up with the doctor on the phone if needed, 2:21:58.160 --> 2:22:01.320 you know, something super simple which would make sense. And 2:22:01.520 --> 2:22:05.360 I am just I'm I just I hate it. I 2:22:05.360 --> 2:22:07.879 fucking hate it. I just keep coming to that. I'm like, 2:22:07.920 --> 2:22:11.560 this is so bad, this is so bad. I'm gonna 2:22:11.640 --> 2:22:15.240 keep doing it, but it sucks. 2:22:15.959 --> 2:22:20.240 Yeah, we're gonna talk more about this next episode, and 2:22:20.280 --> 2:22:22.800 also how the things that we're seeing in abortion care 2:22:22.879 --> 2:22:26.480 have been spiraling out and spreading to other sectors of 2:22:26.520 --> 2:22:29.840 the healthcare system, including trends healthcare. But in the meantime, 2:22:30.000 --> 2:22:32.720 we have an enormous number of links to different abortion 2:22:32.840 --> 2:22:37.400 funds and various abortioned worker groups who also need your support, 2:22:37.600 --> 2:22:41.560 So yeah, please support them, and yeah, so that that's 2:22:41.600 --> 2:22:43.760 gonna be the next episode is because again again like 2:22:43.760 --> 2:22:46.959 this this isn't a you know, once you have like 2:22:47.000 --> 2:22:48.879 an evil like this has been unleashed into the world, 2:22:49.080 --> 2:22:51.480 it doesn't just stay in one place, right, It keeps moving, 2:22:51.520 --> 2:22:54.879 It keeps going after different people, it keeps expanding, and 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:57.119 it keeps just rippling through the world. And so we're 2:22:57.120 --> 2:22:59.720 goen we talking about that, We're gonna be talking about yeah, 2:23:00.600 --> 2:23:03.480 you know, I mean, the fights that abortion workers have 2:23:03.520 --> 2:23:06.720 been having, and then we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna 2:23:06.760 --> 2:23:08.640 give you a brief bit of hope at the end 2:23:08.680 --> 2:23:11.760 of what you can do, because like, fuck it, the 2:23:11.800 --> 2:23:13.800 world does not need to be like this, Like this 2:23:13.959 --> 2:23:16.240 is not you know, I mean, there's there's the old 2:23:16.280 --> 2:23:18.640 David Graber lines like that is the ultimate hidden truth 2:23:18.680 --> 2:23:20.680 of this world is that it is something that we 2:23:20.760 --> 2:23:23.160 make and could just as easily make differently. 2:23:23.640 --> 2:23:24.920 Let's do it. Let's make it different. 2:23:25.000 --> 2:23:27.800 Yeah, let's fucking do that. It's not let's not let's 2:23:27.800 --> 2:23:31.640 not make a fucking immense engine of human suffering. Yeah, 2:23:31.879 --> 2:23:34.560 before we go for this episode, Uh, do you have 2:23:34.560 --> 2:23:36.760 stuff that you want to plug in terms of like 2:23:36.879 --> 2:23:39.320 abortion fund links, in terms of resources. 2:23:39.720 --> 2:23:42.240 Yeah, absolutely, so, I know that I was talking about 2:23:43.080 --> 2:23:47.000 just abortion funds in general. So find your local abortion fund, 2:23:47.840 --> 2:23:50.119 go to abortion funds dot org, and you know whatever 2:23:50.160 --> 2:23:53.600 your local abortion fund, support it. And if you feel 2:23:53.920 --> 2:23:57.160 like you you know your local abortion fund, like you've 2:23:57.200 --> 2:23:59.080 been supporting them or they get a lot of support 2:23:59.120 --> 2:24:03.280 and you want to support maybe like funds elsewhere that 2:24:04.000 --> 2:24:06.720 are doing doing the good work, then I would recommend 2:24:07.040 --> 2:24:10.840 the Texas Equal Access Fund, the T Fund in Texas. 2:24:11.720 --> 2:24:15.760 They are being so amazing and I love them. And 2:24:16.000 --> 2:24:19.200 also I know that the Chicago Abortion Fund is a 2:24:19.320 --> 2:24:23.840 huge fund, but I just I love them so much, 2:24:23.920 --> 2:24:26.879 so I just they can't have enough money. Just go 2:24:27.000 --> 2:24:31.119 donate too, They're so amazing. So Texas Equal Access Fund, 2:24:31.200 --> 2:24:35.400 the T Fund, the Chicago Abortion Fund, they're doing such 2:24:35.440 --> 2:24:38.360 important work. So you know, if you if you're looking 2:24:38.400 --> 2:24:40.320 for someone outside of your local abortion fund which you 2:24:40.360 --> 2:24:42.480 should be supporting, then also check them out as well. 2:24:42.959 --> 2:24:43.160 Yeah. 2:24:43.200 --> 2:24:45.680 So, Crystal, thank you so much for joining us. We 2:24:45.720 --> 2:24:47.880 will be back tomorrow. We will be talking more about this. 2:24:47.920 --> 2:24:51.040 We'll be talking about what you can do. And yeah, 2:24:51.120 --> 2:24:55.160 until then, donate to your abortion funds and yeah, make 2:24:55.280 --> 2:24:57.280 make make the lives of the people who did this 2:24:57.320 --> 2:25:16.640 fucking miserable and destroy their political power. Yes, welcome, Dick, 2:25:16.680 --> 2:25:19.760 it happened here. The podcast for the situation continues to worsen. 2:25:21.440 --> 2:25:25.480 The thing that is worstening today is the rights war 2:25:25.520 --> 2:25:28.760 and abortion, which they are winning and are continuing to win, 2:25:29.760 --> 2:25:33.600 is not contained to simply abortion. It has been spreading. 2:25:33.640 --> 2:25:35.880 It has been getting worse. And yeah, with me to 2:25:35.920 --> 2:25:39.560 talk about it is Crystal, who once again is an 2:25:39.560 --> 2:25:42.920 abortion worker and abortion union organizer and on the on 2:25:42.959 --> 2:25:45.880 the on the board of a bail fund, not bail fund, 2:25:45.920 --> 2:25:47.680 Jesus Rist. Sorry, I'm getting my I'm getting my getting 2:25:47.680 --> 2:25:50.400 my funds crossed in my mind on the board of 2:25:50.440 --> 2:25:53.880 a of a of a Jesus Christ. 2:25:54.640 --> 2:25:57.320 Yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, I probably shouldn't have said that. 2:25:57.400 --> 2:25:59.440 No, no, no, no, this is this is entirely my fault 2:25:59.480 --> 2:26:02.039 because we've been doing so much bail fun stuff that. 2:26:02.760 --> 2:26:03.760 I mean, they're both good. 2:26:04.080 --> 2:26:05.959 Yeah, it's like when my brain thinks fund, it just 2:26:06.000 --> 2:26:07.560 goes to it just goes to bail fund. 2:26:07.600 --> 2:26:08.760 Now all things that are good. 2:26:08.840 --> 2:26:11.120 Yeah, abortion funds that one. You know, we could just 2:26:11.200 --> 2:26:12.360 leave that and screw it, you know. 2:26:13.320 --> 2:26:15.080 It, Well, we'll leave We'll. 2:26:14.800 --> 2:26:21.760 Leave me doing that in we'll do it live rip 2:26:21.800 --> 2:26:22.280 and hell. 2:26:22.920 --> 2:26:23.760 Guy who said that. 2:26:24.600 --> 2:26:31.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Crystal, welcome back. Yeah, glad to be 2:26:31.440 --> 2:26:32.160 talking to you again. 2:26:32.480 --> 2:26:36.320 Love suffering. I love talking about pain and suffering and 2:26:36.400 --> 2:26:39.040 also the good work that we are doing to mitigate it, 2:26:39.080 --> 2:26:40.680 but also pain and suffering. 2:26:40.840 --> 2:26:45.280 Yeah, yeah, so I guess yeah, I think we should 2:26:45.280 --> 2:26:48.320 start with sort of I don't know what frame it 2:26:48.360 --> 2:26:49.879 as a contagion is the right way to do it. 2:26:49.920 --> 2:26:52.360 I think it's probably not. But the way that the 2:26:52.440 --> 2:26:55.480 sort of the ripple like where where where are the 2:26:55.520 --> 2:27:00.840 sort of ripples of uh of of the sort of 2:27:00.879 --> 2:27:03.600 anti portion movements advance have been going. 2:27:05.240 --> 2:27:07.480 Yeah, because you know, if we're talking about you know, 2:27:07.560 --> 2:27:10.440 it's been a year since the jobs decision and Roe 2:27:10.520 --> 2:27:12.959 v Way was overturned. You know what does that mean? 2:27:13.120 --> 2:27:16.280 What does that imply? What would have been the what 2:27:16.360 --> 2:27:18.480 has been in kind of like the aftermath of that. 2:27:19.879 --> 2:27:22.320 The one thing is that, you know, the strategies to 2:27:22.400 --> 2:27:25.920 get to that point worked. And I really hate saying 2:27:26.879 --> 2:27:28.920 like in terms of like they won or we lost, 2:27:29.040 --> 2:27:32.920 because we're all we're in America, we're all losing. We're 2:27:32.959 --> 2:27:35.520 all losing here except for the fascists. 2:27:35.600 --> 2:27:38.560 But so. 2:27:40.040 --> 2:27:43.920 We we have we're seeing a lot of bad things 2:27:43.920 --> 2:27:47.959 happening because of the job's decision. And that's those strategies 2:27:48.040 --> 2:27:50.600 worked in our current political environment to get us to 2:27:50.640 --> 2:27:54.560 that point. And and I mentioned before you know it's 2:27:54.600 --> 2:27:57.440 death by a thousand cuts is kind of like one 2:27:57.440 --> 2:27:59.599 of the ways in which you can describe the strategies 2:27:59.640 --> 2:28:06.160 like NonStop bands, NonStop restrictions just a constant onslaught. Basically 2:28:08.480 --> 2:28:11.879 bands that are their copycat legislation. You know, they're they're 2:28:11.920 --> 2:28:14.560 being pumped out. People can just like literally plug in 2:28:14.600 --> 2:28:17.400 the templates and share them and it can be applied 2:28:17.520 --> 2:28:20.440 to a number of different things in different states and 2:28:20.440 --> 2:28:26.760 and copy copycat legislation. So it worked, and where we're 2:28:26.800 --> 2:28:31.560 we are because that strategy worked and did not get 2:28:31.680 --> 2:28:35.119 enough resistance, not enough was done to combat that strategy 2:28:36.120 --> 2:28:40.280 on the left with Democrats, and it immediately spread to 2:28:40.360 --> 2:28:44.480 the next autonomy based issue because and not saying that 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:48.400 it didn't start before that, because you know, these fascists 2:28:48.400 --> 2:28:51.760 have been going after all kinds of issues of autonomy 2:28:51.920 --> 2:28:56.320 for decades, abortion being one of them, you know, prison, 2:28:57.560 --> 2:29:00.800 prison abolition being one of them, and then also trans 2:29:00.840 --> 2:29:04.959 healthcare and just you know LGBT in general, but like 2:29:05.080 --> 2:29:08.960 specifically trans healthcare that we have been seeing, we are 2:29:09.000 --> 2:29:12.680 seeing a lot of the same restrictions and bands UH 2:29:12.720 --> 2:29:16.400 spreading to that very quickly, like faster than I. I mean, 2:29:16.440 --> 2:29:17.920 like I knew things were bad. You would think that 2:29:17.959 --> 2:29:21.680 I would just like you know, expect the worst. But 2:29:21.760 --> 2:29:24.200 like I, I didn't think that we would see the 2:29:24.280 --> 2:29:29.119 legislation for the anti trans health UH healthcare and gender 2:29:29.120 --> 2:29:32.680 firming services legislation move as fast as it has, like 2:29:32.760 --> 2:29:35.520 I should have and I didn't, And it's been incredibly fast, 2:29:36.400 --> 2:29:41.160 and it feels so similar and I should I don't 2:29:41.160 --> 2:29:43.320 even want to say it feel similar. It is. It's 2:29:43.400 --> 2:29:45.360 when I when I'm seeing it happen, I'm like, this 2:29:45.520 --> 2:29:48.360 is the same thing. They're using trap laws, which are 2:29:48.760 --> 2:29:53.280 laws that so uh, target actual providers. I mean, I 2:29:53.280 --> 2:29:55.480 guess you can't really call them trap laws because abortion 2:29:55.520 --> 2:29:56.240 providers in that. 2:29:56.320 --> 2:29:59.360 But there's the whole trap thing which not going to 2:29:59.400 --> 2:29:59.840 get in WITHO. 2:30:01.080 --> 2:30:08.879 Yeah yeah, abortion services, but yeah. But uh, it's the 2:30:08.920 --> 2:30:13.000 same like type of restrictions and bands, and we're seeing 2:30:13.000 --> 2:30:16.360 them spread to those kinds of health care services, so 2:30:16.440 --> 2:30:20.359 it's impacting other types of health care services. And it's 2:30:21.120 --> 2:30:23.480 I and I'm seeing a lot of the same legal 2:30:23.520 --> 2:30:25.440 back and forth where it's like, oh, this law went 2:30:25.480 --> 2:30:28.680 into effectively, for example in Florida, and oh now it's 2:30:28.680 --> 2:30:32.760 being challenged in court, so it's it's not being it's 2:30:32.760 --> 2:30:35.240 not enforced right now, so it kind of go back 2:30:35.320 --> 2:30:39.320 goes back to the way it does before, which I mean, 2:30:39.360 --> 2:30:44.240 it's always good to see a restriction temporarily paused in 2:30:44.280 --> 2:30:47.600 a band temporarily paused because that relief is needed. I 2:30:48.360 --> 2:30:51.320 see that in abortion care. Like when when there is 2:30:51.640 --> 2:30:54.720 a band that is temporarily reversed by the courts, it 2:30:54.840 --> 2:30:59.080 is like, thank thank god, I'm so happy, you know, 2:30:59.200 --> 2:31:02.520 we get some really we can we can see people 2:31:02.600 --> 2:31:06.240 for their healthcare services tomorrow. However, that back and forth 2:31:06.400 --> 2:31:10.760 is incredibly confusing and creates confusion and chaos on a 2:31:11.680 --> 2:31:13.800 like on a mass scale, because it's like can I 2:31:13.840 --> 2:31:16.160 access these services? Can I not access these services? Can 2:31:16.240 --> 2:31:17.880 I get these services in the stage where I have 2:31:17.879 --> 2:31:20.840 to travel out of state? It's more than like the 2:31:20.959 --> 2:31:24.320 individual can keep up with and confusion is the point. 2:31:24.440 --> 2:31:28.600 So like when I'm seeing some of these bands related 2:31:28.600 --> 2:31:32.160 to trans health services, I'm like, Okay, you know, I'm 2:31:32.160 --> 2:31:34.680 glad that I'm pretty sure. I have to admit I 2:31:34.680 --> 2:31:36.360 have not read the news in the last couple of days, 2:31:36.400 --> 2:31:38.160 so I don't know if this has been walked back, 2:31:38.200 --> 2:31:40.760 but it seems like Florida has some relief right now. 2:31:41.200 --> 2:31:43.600 But I just know what that mass confusion looks like 2:31:43.680 --> 2:31:46.560 for individuals, And I'm like, this is so similar. Oh 2:31:46.560 --> 2:31:49.560 my god, this is this is the same type of fight. 2:31:49.800 --> 2:31:50.840 This is the same fight. 2:31:52.000 --> 2:31:55.840 And and I think, you know, because like this is 2:31:55.840 --> 2:31:59.600 also another thing with the media is just just like 2:31:59.720 --> 2:32:03.880 act of accomplices, Like this is this is a kind 2:32:03.879 --> 2:32:09.800 of thing where like it is really easy to look 2:32:09.840 --> 2:32:12.000 at this and go like they're doing this on purpose 2:32:12.040 --> 2:32:14.360 so they can generate fucking horror stories, which I don't 2:32:14.360 --> 2:32:15.800 think is why they're doing it. I think they're doing 2:32:15.840 --> 2:32:18.280 it because they're transphobed. But you know, like one of 2:32:18.280 --> 2:32:21.840 the one of the things is very that's just fucking 2:32:21.879 --> 2:32:25.760 awful about this stuff is that like the people who 2:32:25.800 --> 2:32:28.760 are reporting on this don't understand how these laws work. 2:32:29.400 --> 2:32:31.560 And so you know, like I mean, like I this 2:32:31.640 --> 2:32:33.880 is my job, right, Like I cover this for a living, 2:32:34.400 --> 2:32:36.800 and I will read a report about something and I 2:32:36.840 --> 2:32:39.279 can't tell what the law does because the person writing 2:32:39.920 --> 2:32:43.600 the fucking there's the stupid ass journalists who they've hired 2:32:43.640 --> 2:32:45.760 who like have never talked to a transperson in their life, 2:32:46.040 --> 2:32:48.879 and like are only tangentially aware of what the law is, 2:32:49.280 --> 2:32:52.880 like like the concept of the law is something they 2:32:52.879 --> 2:32:55.880 were introduced to two years ago. Like they don't fuck 2:32:55.920 --> 2:32:57.720 they don't fucking know what these bills do, right, so 2:32:57.720 --> 2:32:59.400 you have to like go actually read the bill, But 2:32:59.440 --> 2:33:01.440 that doesn't help because you know this this is yeah, 2:33:01.440 --> 2:33:02.760 this is like this is I think a very similar 2:33:02.760 --> 2:33:06.120 strategy of like there's there's this way in which like 2:33:06.320 --> 2:33:11.680 constant onslaught constant sort of confusion, constant terror. And also 2:33:13.000 --> 2:33:15.199 you know and the way that the strategy right now 2:33:15.280 --> 2:33:18.160 that that is being sort of relied on the stop 2:33:18.240 --> 2:33:20.640 this stuff is to the courts that that is very 2:33:20.640 --> 2:33:23.760 similar to what the entire struggle over abortion wies look like. 2:33:23.920 --> 2:33:26.720 And you know, we know how that ended it. It 2:33:26.760 --> 2:33:30.320 doesn't It didn't work, and it's not going to work 2:33:30.360 --> 2:33:33.720 with with with transpertes either, and like it, and and 2:33:33.800 --> 2:33:35.640 you know, and I think something that like we're we're 2:33:35.680 --> 2:33:38.240 going to see more of as you know, because like 2:33:38.240 --> 2:33:40.440 a water some of these bands will be struck down, 2:33:41.160 --> 2:33:42.560 but you know you're gonna get the abortion thing where 2:33:42.560 --> 2:33:44.800 it's like okay, so you like one bag gets struck down, 2:33:44.800 --> 2:33:46.440 so they pass another one. Then you just keep passing 2:33:46.480 --> 2:33:48.600 them until they can find one that their fucking judges 2:33:48.640 --> 2:33:49.760 will make. 2:33:49.879 --> 2:33:52.560 Yeah, and they like reintroduce bills that are like practically 2:33:52.560 --> 2:33:54.640 the same thing but like slightly different, and they just 2:33:54.680 --> 2:34:01.600 like retry stuff after doing like political shenanigans and and 2:34:01.600 --> 2:34:04.160 and we're still we're still doing the legal back and 2:34:04.200 --> 2:34:06.280 forth approach. And abortion care like it's still the same thing, 2:34:06.400 --> 2:34:10.480 like it hasn't changed. And seeing that also happen, it's like, well, 2:34:10.560 --> 2:34:13.360 people need health care now, like with abortion care and 2:34:13.400 --> 2:34:17.440 trans healthcare, it's like you need that health care when 2:34:17.480 --> 2:34:21.960 you need it, like right now today tomorrow, and when 2:34:22.000 --> 2:34:25.320 there is confusion and this back like the because the 2:34:25.320 --> 2:34:29.320 courts take forever like it, it's and it changes a lot, 2:34:29.360 --> 2:34:31.240 and it's confusing when you see the news stories like 2:34:31.280 --> 2:34:34.680 you were saying, So it's interfering and lowering the quality 2:34:34.680 --> 2:34:37.920 of accessing like lowering the quality of that healthcare and 2:34:37.959 --> 2:34:40.080 accessing that health care like the experience of accessing that 2:34:40.120 --> 2:34:45.160 health care now like today. And it's it's cumulative because 2:34:45.200 --> 2:34:49.160 like you, you lose the ability to keep track of 2:34:49.240 --> 2:34:50.680 what you have the right to do and what you 2:34:50.720 --> 2:34:55.160 don't and and these are these are the same, like 2:34:55.160 --> 2:34:57.760 they are issues of controlling your life and your body 2:34:58.920 --> 2:35:01.760 and of privacy is well, you know, your ability, it's 2:35:01.760 --> 2:35:05.880 like your business. It's your body, and the state is 2:35:05.879 --> 2:35:10.640 getting in the way. And and it hurts so much 2:35:10.760 --> 2:35:15.480 to see this happening to even more people, because it's 2:35:15.680 --> 2:35:18.760 it's hard enough watching what happens to people who need 2:35:18.760 --> 2:35:22.160 abortions and seeing what they go through, and then having 2:35:22.160 --> 2:35:24.880 to see even more people who are also trying to 2:35:24.920 --> 2:35:28.000 access healthcare to help them have control over their lives 2:35:28.000 --> 2:35:32.160 and their bodies also having that, you know, having that 2:35:32.240 --> 2:35:35.280 impeded and and and and taken away from them too 2:35:35.879 --> 2:35:37.920 with a different type of health care, and seeing like 2:35:38.120 --> 2:35:41.400 that is just like, oh my god, Like not only 2:35:41.480 --> 2:35:46.360 were we able, we were not able to maintain these 2:35:46.400 --> 2:35:51.520 services in this country, and we're also seeing it happened 2:35:51.520 --> 2:35:55.119 to another type of health care. And and another thing 2:35:55.200 --> 2:35:58.680 too is like abortion providers are also trans healthcare providers. 2:35:58.680 --> 2:36:02.000 Like yeah, it's it's like body stuff. It's like you know, 2:36:02.240 --> 2:36:05.520 like it's they're they're like often the same building. 2:36:05.680 --> 2:36:09.160 Yeah, like plant planned parenthood does both. Yeah, people who 2:36:09.160 --> 2:36:11.119 get runs through your planned parenthood. 2:36:10.760 --> 2:36:13.959 Because and a lot of independent clinics to a lot 2:36:13.959 --> 2:36:17.080 of independent abortion providers also provide trans healthcare as well. 2:36:17.480 --> 2:36:21.279 And gender hormones, uh, gender hormone. I keep saying gender hormone, 2:36:21.560 --> 2:36:27.160 even though that doesn't make any hormone therapy services and 2:36:27.200 --> 2:36:29.520 gender for me, I feel like I'm like combining those together. 2:36:29.600 --> 2:36:32.119 But they offer both. 2:36:32.879 --> 2:36:35.680 Yeah, But but that also means that like if you 2:36:35.480 --> 2:36:38.360 if if you knock out a clinic for like for 2:36:38.520 --> 2:36:40.800 one of the reasons, you've also knocked out the services 2:36:40.800 --> 2:36:43.480 for everyone else too, righte. So like it's you know, 2:36:43.680 --> 2:36:46.160 and I think this is something that's very important about 2:36:46.240 --> 2:36:48.000 the way the right seas is that the right seas 2:36:48.080 --> 2:36:53.360 this has the same fight very clearly, and that I 2:36:53.400 --> 2:36:56.960 don't know. I mean, I think I think in terms 2:36:56.959 --> 2:37:00.160 of the people who actually do organizing, I think it's 2:37:00.200 --> 2:37:02.520 it like it's understood that it is the same fight, 2:37:02.560 --> 2:37:04.959 but I don't think it is as much in the 2:37:05.040 --> 2:37:08.200 general republic, even though the like for the people you're 2:37:08.240 --> 2:37:13.160 fighting against, they are you know, incredibly like viscerally and 2:37:13.160 --> 2:37:18.880 disturbingly clear about like what they want to do and 2:37:18.920 --> 2:37:22.280 about the fact that you know, like destroying people's autonomies 2:37:22.280 --> 2:37:25.680 and using the state to take control of me just 2:37:25.800 --> 2:37:28.560 like literally physically take control of their bodies and define 2:37:28.760 --> 2:37:31.240 what they are, which is something they do, like you 2:37:31.280 --> 2:37:32.440 know what I mean, then this is this is this 2:37:32.440 --> 2:37:35.280 is the thing that's been happening in these anti transpils too, 2:37:35.360 --> 2:37:38.680 is like they've been like like legally defining what a 2:37:38.720 --> 2:37:43.080 woman is by like reproductive apparatuses and stuff like that. 2:37:43.720 --> 2:37:49.800 Yeah, and that that's disgusting and and and it makes 2:37:49.840 --> 2:37:53.120 me feel just like disgusted as like just like seeing 2:37:53.120 --> 2:37:54.560 that because like I feel like I don't even like 2:37:54.760 --> 2:37:58.000 fit some of the criteria that no as a says woman. 2:37:58.160 --> 2:38:00.440 I feel like it like and I'm just like oh 2:38:00.440 --> 2:38:05.000 my god. And we're also like we're punishing people for 2:38:05.360 --> 2:38:09.760 not having like perfect health and like perfect pregnancies and 2:38:10.680 --> 2:38:13.039 being born into the body that you know what I mean, 2:38:13.080 --> 2:38:15.720 Like people are being punished for not being the ideal 2:38:16.160 --> 2:38:19.800 cause like and I've asked, I've like stupidly asked this 2:38:19.840 --> 2:38:24.080 out loud, where I'm like, you know, I've asked out loud, 2:38:24.200 --> 2:38:29.600 like why are these bands so restrictive where people who 2:38:29.640 --> 2:38:33.039 are pregnant and you know, like they're just not having 2:38:33.400 --> 2:38:37.199 a perfect pregnancy, like there are complications like which which happened, 2:38:37.560 --> 2:38:39.400 and they're like being punished for not having the perfect 2:38:39.400 --> 2:38:42.280 pregnancy by these laws, like these abortion restrictions. And I'm 2:38:42.320 --> 2:38:44.520 like why would they do that, Like why like how 2:38:44.560 --> 2:38:47.480 can you not know that pregnancies go wrong? And how 2:38:47.480 --> 2:38:49.320 would you not know that? And then somebody said to 2:38:49.400 --> 2:38:51.680 me they were like, well, you know, like E've was 2:38:51.760 --> 2:38:55.200 punished with the ability with dangerous pregnancies, like if you 2:38:55.240 --> 2:38:58.560 look at their religion, like it was a punishment. So 2:38:58.640 --> 2:39:00.800 I'm like, yeah, like they're they just believe we should 2:39:00.800 --> 2:39:03.320 be like punished for not being born in the right body, 2:39:03.600 --> 2:39:08.400 not having the perfect pregnancy, not wanting a pregnancy, you know, 2:39:08.480 --> 2:39:12.400 like you're being punished for not and having the ideal 2:39:12.480 --> 2:39:16.840 because they believe that it is a it's a punishment 2:39:17.080 --> 2:39:18.760 just like in I guess I'm trying to think of 2:39:18.800 --> 2:39:20.879 the word like naturally intrinsically or something. I don't know, 2:39:22.280 --> 2:39:25.640 and I don't subscribe to that ideology, but it's being 2:39:25.640 --> 2:39:26.440 forced on us. 2:39:26.520 --> 2:39:29.039 Yeah, yeah, And I mean I think there's this way 2:39:29.080 --> 2:39:31.160 in which people have people have this tendency to conceive 2:39:31.440 --> 2:39:35.320 of like neoliberalism, right specifically as this thing that's about 2:39:35.360 --> 2:39:38.920 like the retreat, the retreat of state power, and that's 2:39:38.959 --> 2:39:41.840 never been what it is, right what Like you know, 2:39:41.879 --> 2:39:44.000 if you if you look at what neoliberalism actually looks like, 2:39:44.000 --> 2:39:46.880 it's fucking abortion bands, right, Like the people who are 2:39:46.879 --> 2:39:49.480 pushing that are the people who push Reagan into office. 2:39:50.040 --> 2:39:52.760 The actual point of the state in neoliberalism and this 2:39:52.840 --> 2:39:55.000 and you know, and this is one that's incredibly compatible 2:39:55.120 --> 2:39:57.680 with the sort of like with the sort of religious 2:39:57.680 --> 2:39:59.800 fascists that they allied themselves with in order to come 2:39:59.800 --> 2:40:03.160 into power. Right, the way that's actually manifested is is 2:40:03.280 --> 2:40:06.680 just through the state directly taking control of your body. 2:40:07.080 --> 2:40:09.760 Because you know, like people, people aren't actually fucking natural 2:40:09.800 --> 2:40:13.520 market subjects. They're not Like a woman is not as 2:40:13.560 --> 2:40:16.400 as these like stupid assholes always insist is like, oh, 2:40:16.520 --> 2:40:18.840 someone who gives birth, Like no, that's just like not true. 2:40:18.840 --> 2:40:21.680 That's not true. It's not and so and because it's 2:40:21.720 --> 2:40:24.200 not right. But people, because that's the image that they 2:40:24.280 --> 2:40:26.880 have to like force you into. The only way they 2:40:26.879 --> 2:40:28.800 can do that is by using state violence to physically 2:40:28.800 --> 2:40:30.440 take control as your body and shape you into the 2:40:30.480 --> 2:40:31.320 thing that they think you are. 2:40:31.760 --> 2:40:35.800 Yep, yep. And and they're like none of this stuff 2:40:35.840 --> 2:40:39.720 is siloed, like you know, like pregnancy is related to abortion, 2:40:39.800 --> 2:40:43.400 care is related to just like trans care is like 2:40:43.440 --> 2:40:47.320 embedded in all of that as well. Uh, trans people 2:40:47.360 --> 2:40:50.720 get pregnant and have abortions. And also in terms of 2:40:50.760 --> 2:40:54.840 hormone therapy more like you know, like people besides trans 2:40:54.920 --> 2:40:57.600 people need hormone therapy as well. Like, like none of 2:40:57.600 --> 2:41:00.800 these things are a silo by themselves. They're all kind 2:41:00.840 --> 2:41:04.959 of embedded together, and the effect of that is that 2:41:05.000 --> 2:41:07.760 it's kind of become impossible to be a doctor and 2:41:07.800 --> 2:41:11.920 a healthcare provider for a lot of these services because 2:41:11.959 --> 2:41:15.120 they're so entwined and because like you know, we all 2:41:15.520 --> 2:41:18.320 we have our bodies, and like our bodies aren't in 2:41:18.480 --> 2:41:21.959 separate like can take our body parts, aren't in separate containers, 2:41:22.000 --> 2:41:24.200 Like they're all like we're like all connected, Like it's 2:41:24.240 --> 2:41:27.080 all connected, and you can't really have one without the other. 2:41:27.680 --> 2:41:33.400 And now we're seeing doctors who can't safely do there 2:41:33.680 --> 2:41:35.879 what they have to do, like provide like the healthcare 2:41:35.959 --> 2:41:41.240 to like appropriate medical standards within these laws that exist. 2:41:41.480 --> 2:41:44.080 So you see doctors who are like, wow, I can't 2:41:44.080 --> 2:41:47.640 actually perform the healthcare that I need to perform without 2:41:47.760 --> 2:41:50.600 potentially losing my license, so I'm just going to leave 2:41:50.600 --> 2:41:53.400 the state. So you see a lot of doctors. Uh, 2:41:53.440 --> 2:41:55.640 there's been a lot of news stories about doctors, particularly 2:41:57.000 --> 2:41:58.680 the ones that I've seen. I'm sure that there's other 2:41:58.720 --> 2:42:01.480 types of doctors too, but like you know, obstetricians and 2:42:02.000 --> 2:42:07.240 obgyns who are leaving states because they cannot safely practice 2:42:07.800 --> 2:42:11.160 the medicine as it's as you know, as science and 2:42:11.240 --> 2:42:14.720 medicine wants them to, you know that without risking losing 2:42:14.760 --> 2:42:17.080 their license. So they're just leaving and these are states 2:42:17.080 --> 2:42:19.560 that need those doctors. I mean, there's a lot that 2:42:19.600 --> 2:42:23.080 can be said about maternal and infomortality rates in the 2:42:23.160 --> 2:42:25.840 United States. So the fact that you have obg i 2:42:25.959 --> 2:42:30.800 ns like fleeing states, and I'm sure these are states 2:42:30.840 --> 2:42:34.760 that need those doctors and have low standard like low 2:42:35.640 --> 2:42:40.840 or have just like low quality outcomes or like bad 2:42:40.879 --> 2:42:45.360 outcomes when it comes to maternal and infomortality. And you're 2:42:45.400 --> 2:42:47.119 seeing this and it's like, well, this is just making 2:42:47.160 --> 2:42:50.199 all kinds of health care worse, Like it's becoming less 2:42:50.320 --> 2:42:52.640 safe to just be pregnant in general, even if you 2:42:52.640 --> 2:42:56.560 are caring and delivering a pregnancy in these states. And 2:42:56.640 --> 2:42:58.880 I'm sure that you're going to see this also happen 2:42:59.280 --> 2:43:02.560 because of these trans healthcare bands and say you're going 2:43:02.640 --> 2:43:05.160 to see doctors fleeing in areas in which those doctors 2:43:05.160 --> 2:43:08.160 are needed because they are risk of losing their license 2:43:08.160 --> 2:43:09.560 and not being able to practice. 2:43:10.640 --> 2:43:10.879 Yeah. 2:43:11.000 --> 2:43:12.880 And another thing I think that's very similar between these 2:43:12.879 --> 2:43:14.840 two things is like there's just not that you know, 2:43:15.120 --> 2:43:18.080 we've we've talked about this more broadly, like in a 2:43:18.080 --> 2:43:19.400 lot of the and and a lot of the comforts 2:43:19.440 --> 2:43:21.760 are like I've done on the show about labor stuff, 2:43:21.959 --> 2:43:26.600 my healthcare. Labor is that like just everywhere, even even 2:43:26.600 --> 2:43:28.600 in even in sectors where like there's no there's no 2:43:28.640 --> 2:43:31.280 sort of legal threat, right, there's They're just massive labor 2:43:31.320 --> 2:43:35.120 shortages because these these for these for profit healthcare companies 2:43:35.240 --> 2:43:37.840 are you know, don't want to fucking bring in another 2:43:37.840 --> 2:43:39.840 person on a shift because that costing more money and 2:43:39.840 --> 2:43:43.080 that's less money than they can pocket. And you know, 2:43:43.200 --> 2:43:45.880 and yeah, and and and and but and both both 2:43:45.959 --> 2:43:50.560 abortion services and trans healthcare are fields. I mean there 2:43:50.600 --> 2:43:54.600 are just there's just not that many people. Like they're 2:43:54.640 --> 2:43:57.440 just like the the the numbers are so small that 2:43:57.520 --> 2:44:00.360 like like I can I can ask my friends and 2:44:00.400 --> 2:44:03.640 they know like every provider in the city. 2:44:02.920 --> 2:44:08.160 Yep, oh yeah, and it's like two providers, yeah, like 2:44:08.160 --> 2:44:09.879 like two places to get hormones. 2:44:10.040 --> 2:44:12.240 It's like and and this and and again this isn't 2:44:12.240 --> 2:44:13.960 like I live in Chicago, right, this is a place 2:44:14.000 --> 2:44:16.800 where it's like it's pretty easy to get hormones, right 2:44:16.800 --> 2:44:18.160 compared to I mean this is this is like one 2:44:18.200 --> 2:44:21.160 narratively yeah, well but I mean like genuiney like this 2:44:21.240 --> 2:44:22.360 is a this is the thing we you know, this 2:44:22.440 --> 2:44:23.600 is like if you want to get like look at 2:44:23.600 --> 2:44:26.240 other parallels. Right, this is like Chicago has always been 2:44:26.320 --> 2:44:29.119 I mean not always, but for I mean like half 2:44:29.160 --> 2:44:31.400 a century, probably longer than that, has been a place 2:44:31.440 --> 2:44:34.760 where people like trans people from around the country, particularly 2:44:34.760 --> 2:44:38.680 from the South, have like uprooted their lives and fled 2:44:38.720 --> 2:44:40.440 to because it was a place where you could actually 2:44:40.480 --> 2:44:44.520 get care and you know, but like but even here, 2:44:44.680 --> 2:44:46.120 it's fucking hard as ship. 2:44:46.400 --> 2:44:48.560 Like yeah, it's really. 2:44:48.280 --> 2:44:49.959 Hard, and you know, and and a lot like the 2:44:50.120 --> 2:44:52.640 like like my one of one of the local clinics 2:44:52.680 --> 2:44:54.960 has been on strike for months and months and months 2:44:55.000 --> 2:44:58.400 because they're the place that they work for, like slash 2:44:58.440 --> 2:45:01.320 a bunch of services, and so in this like this 2:45:01.520 --> 2:45:04.640 this kind of struggle is you know, like this is 2:45:04.680 --> 2:45:06.320 this is the thing that's happening in places where it's 2:45:06.440 --> 2:45:10.480 even where it's legal, and then suddenly the state bans it, 2:45:10.520 --> 2:45:13.640 and suddenly, you know, people are leaving the field, people 2:45:13.640 --> 2:45:15.959 are leaving states. Becomes even harder, the services that already 2:45:16.000 --> 2:45:18.120 exist just even more over tax and it's just like 2:45:18.160 --> 2:45:22.360 it's the exact same like collapse just like rippling through 2:45:22.400 --> 2:45:23.320 the entire sector. 2:45:24.520 --> 2:45:30.200 And none of these jobs pay a lot either, Like yeah, 2:45:30.240 --> 2:45:34.360 like I just in general, like I'm sure, like I'm 2:45:34.360 --> 2:45:37.480 not citing a specific job, but I'm sure that's there 2:45:37.520 --> 2:45:42.840 are abortion providers like who are like medical assistants and 2:45:42.920 --> 2:45:46.320 hormone therapy like medical assistants that are making like fifteen 2:45:46.400 --> 2:45:50.200 bucks an hour, which is ridiculous considering you're also being 2:45:50.240 --> 2:45:56.240 threatened with violence. You're also having to deal with patients 2:45:56.280 --> 2:46:00.080 who who are also experiencing the same national health crisis 2:46:00.120 --> 2:46:03.120 that you are, Like you're experiencing it together, Like this 2:46:03.200 --> 2:46:05.280 is something like it's not like, oh, I'm suffering by 2:46:05.320 --> 2:46:08.480 myself as a worker, or oh, these patients are suffering 2:46:08.520 --> 2:46:10.360 as individual I mean they are suffering into visual but 2:46:10.400 --> 2:46:12.480 you know, like they're not suffering alone as individuals. They're 2:46:12.520 --> 2:46:16.720 experiencing like the same sort of like grief is like 2:46:16.720 --> 2:46:18.440 a lot of the other people who are accessing the 2:46:18.440 --> 2:46:21.280 same services as them. And it's like, while we are 2:46:21.360 --> 2:46:28.920 all in this sinking boat together, and and it's so 2:46:29.160 --> 2:46:34.440 hard to recruit into these roles, so like we need 2:46:34.480 --> 2:46:39.720 more more abortion care and trans health providers, and it's 2:46:39.760 --> 2:46:42.279 hard to get people to commit to that when you 2:46:42.280 --> 2:46:46.000 you can't live on that and you can't sustain that, 2:46:46.200 --> 2:46:47.800 like you can't stay in that job and keep doing 2:46:47.840 --> 2:46:52.520 it for years when you're literally being like you're you're 2:46:52.560 --> 2:46:56.240 you're being traumatized, you're experiencing suffering, You're witnessing suffering. 2:46:56.400 --> 2:46:58.800 No, I mean that I'm killed like that, that's a 2:46:58.879 --> 2:47:01.680 real thing that happens to threatened. Yeah, like. 2:47:03.800 --> 2:47:07.840 Just like like violent threats are something that both types 2:47:07.879 --> 2:47:12.560 of health services have in common now, which is so depressing, 2:47:13.160 --> 2:47:17.960 but uh, it's we're all we're all being threatened by 2:47:18.200 --> 2:47:20.920 by the right and by fascists. Like I try to 2:47:20.959 --> 2:47:24.080 like sometimes it's like the right conservatives, I'm like, they're fascists. 2:47:24.160 --> 2:47:25.720 They're there, it's fascism. 2:47:25.959 --> 2:47:27.800 There's literally like a lot of these people like to 2:47:27.879 --> 2:47:29.879 show up to this stuff. It's it's like it's literally 2:47:29.920 --> 2:47:31.879 the same groups as proud boys who show up to 2:47:31.920 --> 2:47:34.360 like different things over and over again, and they get 2:47:34.360 --> 2:47:38.680 relabeled by the media as like concerned parents or like 2:47:39.000 --> 2:47:42.280 the Christian outreach groups, depending on like what thing they're at. 2:47:42.360 --> 2:47:45.200 It's like, okay, these no, like these are fascists who 2:47:45.200 --> 2:47:48.520 tried to overthrow the governments and seize power like this, 2:47:48.520 --> 2:47:49.920 this is this, this is three years ago. 2:47:50.000 --> 2:47:53.440 Like come on, yeah, like these are people who are 2:47:53.480 --> 2:47:58.200 actually they are ruining the lives of my loved ones 2:47:58.240 --> 2:48:00.720 and people in my community, like my neighbors like they 2:48:00.720 --> 2:48:05.080 are ruining my and my neighbors' lives like actively in 2:48:05.160 --> 2:48:09.880 ways that are just getting worse. So it is one 2:48:10.000 --> 2:48:15.320 fight I really want everyone to realize that. I feel 2:48:15.360 --> 2:48:19.720 like it is being realized more and more now. But 2:48:20.120 --> 2:48:22.160 you know, the more people who learn it, the better 2:48:23.640 --> 2:48:28.120 and the ways in which just I just feel like 2:48:28.200 --> 2:48:33.920 the DABS decision and the overturn of Robi Wade meant 2:48:33.959 --> 2:48:37.039 more than just people couldn't get abortions. I think it's 2:48:37.600 --> 2:48:40.240 just the destruction of healthcare in general in this country 2:48:41.840 --> 2:48:45.800 and it turned it into like just like a mad 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:49.560 dash to do the exact same thing to health services 2:48:49.560 --> 2:48:50.560 that trans people need. 2:48:50.959 --> 2:48:57.560 Yeah, so fun another one of the parts of this fight, 2:48:57.640 --> 2:49:00.800 and I think the part of this fight that is 2:49:00.879 --> 2:49:05.480 the least popular in terms of like who will actually 2:49:05.600 --> 2:49:11.120 back you, which is both like healthcare workers both doing 2:49:11.160 --> 2:49:15.000 abortion care and who during trans healthcare fighting what is 2:49:15.080 --> 2:49:18.680 essentially like a three way war where they are they 2:49:18.680 --> 2:49:21.040 are under assault from the right and from the state 2:49:21.080 --> 2:49:23.720 who are trying to criminalize the healthcare that they provide 2:49:24.160 --> 2:49:27.400 and you know, directly target them through trap laws and 2:49:27.440 --> 2:49:30.760 through that. I don't we need to figure out what 2:49:30.879 --> 2:49:34.400 their name for the version of the anti translorts. But 2:49:34.800 --> 2:49:37.160 you know, so they're being specifically targeted by the state, 2:49:37.240 --> 2:49:40.600 and then they're also fighting a conflict with their own 2:49:40.600 --> 2:49:44.200 employers and whether that's whether that's private healthcare providers or 2:49:44.280 --> 2:49:47.040 that's NGOs who are you know, don't want to pay 2:49:47.040 --> 2:49:51.039 them shit, you know, our funnel are funneling all of 2:49:51.040 --> 2:49:55.960 this fucking money into paying somebody's fucking dipshit cousin like 2:49:56.120 --> 2:49:59.520 three hundred thousand dollars a year to be like the 2:49:59.520 --> 2:50:07.119 device executive director of like policy marketing or something. And yeah, 2:50:07.160 --> 2:50:08.600 and and and the way, the way in which you 2:50:08.640 --> 2:50:10.520 know this this is this has turned into a union 2:50:10.600 --> 2:50:16.520 struggle that is deeply like it kind of in a 2:50:16.520 --> 2:50:19.520 lot of ways, deeply unpopular among liberals because they just 2:50:19.840 --> 2:50:26.080 don't they don't see like healthcare providers as workers. 2:50:26.320 --> 2:50:32.760 Yeah, it has been such a strange experience union organizing 2:50:33.080 --> 2:50:39.240 and and and contract negotiating during a national health crisis. 2:50:39.240 --> 2:50:41.840 And after the fall up Ruby Wait, it was so like, 2:50:42.120 --> 2:50:44.200 you know, ruby Wait is overturned and we got to 2:50:44.200 --> 2:50:46.440 go to the barging table, and that's where money and 2:50:46.520 --> 2:50:50.240 it's it's it's definitely it's it's it's really hard because 2:50:50.320 --> 2:50:53.600 this stress is so compounded for all of the workers. 2:50:55.080 --> 2:51:00.360 And I know I've had uh peers in the kemmunity 2:51:00.440 --> 2:51:03.879 and the abortion providing and abortion advocacy community say things like, 2:51:04.160 --> 2:51:06.000 you know, you expect a snake to be a snake, 2:51:06.200 --> 2:51:09.240 Like you know that the right is going to attack 2:51:09.320 --> 2:51:12.680 you and the fascists are going to do whatever they 2:51:12.720 --> 2:51:15.720 can to take away your right to autonomy and privacy. 2:51:17.200 --> 2:51:19.840 But it hurts a lot more. Like personally, I think 2:51:19.920 --> 2:51:22.920 it hurts so much more. And it's been so painful 2:51:23.000 --> 2:51:25.360 in the last year to see the ways in which 2:51:25.640 --> 2:51:27.400 the people on our side, the people who have the 2:51:27.400 --> 2:51:29.520 same goals as us, ultimately like of like, you know, 2:51:29.640 --> 2:51:31.800 we want people to have abortions and we want people 2:51:32.240 --> 2:51:36.640 to access health care, and they are to have them 2:51:36.720 --> 2:51:40.119 hurt you, yeah, because yeah, because like they're not supposed 2:51:40.120 --> 2:51:45.000 to be snakes, And it hurts. It hurts a lot more. 2:51:45.800 --> 2:51:49.680 And a lot of the same people don't. I feel 2:51:49.680 --> 2:51:53.039 like they're the same kind of folks who didn't understand 2:51:53.040 --> 2:51:57.080 the immediacy of needing to protect because so you know, LGBT, 2:51:57.440 --> 2:51:59.959 I feel like we should have gone harder for the tea, 2:52:00.680 --> 2:52:02.680 you know, like all these years, like how long has 2:52:02.760 --> 2:52:05.920 we have we had the acronym lgbt and like, and 2:52:05.959 --> 2:52:08.400 it's like this whole time, it's like we like we 2:52:08.760 --> 2:52:11.600 could have seen this coming. We shouldn't. It was like 2:52:11.640 --> 2:52:13.200 it clearly was like the same with Roe v wa 2:52:13.280 --> 2:52:15.640 where it's like they are coming for Roe v Wade, 2:52:16.000 --> 2:52:18.000 this is coming. We could have done so much more 2:52:18.040 --> 2:52:20.680 to prepare. And I feel like in the a lot 2:52:20.720 --> 2:52:22.560 of the same way, the same people who are like 2:52:22.879 --> 2:52:25.920 devaluing the labor who didn't do enough to protect abortion 2:52:26.000 --> 2:52:27.680 services are the same people who didn't do enough to 2:52:27.680 --> 2:52:29.720 protect just like trans people in general. 2:52:30.080 --> 2:52:33.000 Yeah, and I think there's like there's I think there's 2:52:33.000 --> 2:52:35.160 definitely a sort of expendability thing there too, right, I 2:52:35.200 --> 2:52:38.280 mean this is something that it's like very explicitly in 2:52:38.320 --> 2:52:43.400 the two thousands, like the sort of I don't know 2:52:43.440 --> 2:52:45.640 what the technical term for them is, but like big. 2:52:45.480 --> 2:52:49.320 Gay, like you know, the big big abortion and big gay. 2:52:49.560 --> 2:52:53.400 Yeah, well the big the big sort of like LGBTQ 2:52:53.760 --> 2:52:58.680 like NGOs. Right, You're like human rights campaign like groups 2:52:58.720 --> 2:53:02.120 like that very explicitly made a decision in the two 2:53:02.120 --> 2:53:07.119 thousands where they were like, Okay, we're gonna drop our 2:53:07.240 --> 2:53:10.920 demands for stuff like trans healthcare and trans recognition in 2:53:11.800 --> 2:53:14.039 order to sort of build a broader base to get 2:53:14.160 --> 2:53:16.160 like gay marriage and shit. And that that was a 2:53:16.240 --> 2:53:19.520 very expos decision that they made, and you know, and 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:21.680 it worked for them, right, Like yeah, like we got 2:53:21.680 --> 2:53:22.840 gay marriage, right. 2:53:22.680 --> 2:53:23.199 Well we didn't. 2:53:23.200 --> 2:53:23.879 Well we didn't. 2:53:23.920 --> 2:53:26.520 Actually we got through the fucking courts, not through like 2:53:26.560 --> 2:53:30.240 the legal process, right, and it took ages too, but 2:53:30.280 --> 2:53:31.720 like yeah, but like that was you know, and like 2:53:31.760 --> 2:53:33.800 they they eventually sort of came back around him, were like, 2:53:33.840 --> 2:53:37.160 we're trans allies. But then you know, all of the 2:53:37.240 --> 2:53:40.000 shit was happening. I mean, so this has been going 2:53:40.040 --> 2:53:43.560 on since like twenty like twenty sixteen, right is like 2:53:43.600 --> 2:53:48.000 the first like the first bathroom bills start, and you know, 2:53:48.200 --> 2:53:51.160 I mean it was over half a decade where things 2:53:51.200 --> 2:53:54.680 could have been done and they just weren't. And you know, 2:53:54.879 --> 2:53:57.040 like it's it's the it's the same thing, like like 2:53:57.400 --> 2:54:01.560 people just get used as like people's health just gets 2:54:01.560 --> 2:54:03.520 in their bodies get used as bargaining chips. 2:54:03.840 --> 2:54:04.120 Yep. 2:54:04.680 --> 2:54:07.039 And I feel like in these all of these situations 2:54:07.040 --> 2:54:10.080 that we're talking about, it's not looking out for the 2:54:10.080 --> 2:54:14.560 most vulnerable because so if you're talking about you know, 2:54:14.680 --> 2:54:18.520 healthcare and I don't want to say women's rights. I 2:54:18.560 --> 2:54:21.240 mean it used to be women's rights, and then now 2:54:21.280 --> 2:54:24.960 it's just like you know, like abortion access and you're 2:54:25.000 --> 2:54:27.959 not looking like who needs this the most, and you're 2:54:28.000 --> 2:54:30.480 not looking out for the most vulnerable. And part of 2:54:30.520 --> 2:54:32.760 that part of it in terms of abortion services is 2:54:33.440 --> 2:54:35.800 the compromising, you know, compromising on bands like, oh, a 2:54:35.840 --> 2:54:38.600 fifteen week abortion ban is reasonable. No it's not. No 2:54:38.720 --> 2:54:41.840 abortion of ban is reasonable. But so that's what abortion services. 2:54:41.879 --> 2:54:46.240 And then with the fight for queer liberation, you know, 2:54:46.280 --> 2:54:49.200 who's the most vulnerable will trans people have been the 2:54:49.200 --> 2:54:52.000 most vulnerable and not looking out for them? And then 2:54:52.120 --> 2:54:54.520 the frontline workers, Like who's the most vulnerable when it 2:54:54.520 --> 2:54:57.560 comes to people doing this work providing these services? The 2:54:57.600 --> 2:55:01.040 frontline workers, the people who don't who don't make much 2:55:01.040 --> 2:55:03.720 who you know, the people who aren't managers or CEOs 2:55:05.320 --> 2:55:07.560 and I mean like you know, senior management and CEOs 2:55:07.600 --> 2:55:12.280 and things like that, are are They're in different situations 2:55:12.280 --> 2:55:14.640 than the people who are answering the phone and scheduling 2:55:14.680 --> 2:55:17.120 and talking to the patients and taking their blood pressure 2:55:17.640 --> 2:55:24.480 and giving them their medication. And yeah, it's just not 2:55:24.600 --> 2:55:28.080 looking out for the people in the most vulnerable situations. 2:55:27.640 --> 2:55:30.520 It's killing us. It's literally killing us. 2:55:30.520 --> 2:55:31.000 You have to. 2:55:32.560 --> 2:55:38.320 It's just so much focus on the wrong things when 2:55:38.320 --> 2:55:40.760 we really should be focused on the most vulnerable all 2:55:40.800 --> 2:55:41.160 around it. 2:55:41.360 --> 2:55:44.520 And I think also like the extent to which all 2:55:44.560 --> 2:55:47.120 of these struggles are labor struggles, right, I mean, this 2:55:47.200 --> 2:55:48.840 is one of the things about trans healthcare as we 2:55:48.920 --> 2:55:52.360 talked about it that much, is that, like I think 2:55:52.360 --> 2:55:55.800 this is sort of a product of like the kinds 2:55:55.840 --> 2:56:00.240 of trans people who get representation. But you like, I 2:56:00.240 --> 2:56:01.400 think there's a lot of people who think that, like 2:56:01.400 --> 2:56:04.560 the average transperson is like a fucking tech worker in California, 2:56:04.560 --> 2:56:07.680 And it's like no, like the like the the the 2:56:07.360 --> 2:56:11.440 the the actual like median trans person like works at 2:56:11.440 --> 2:56:14.879 a works at a EPs warehouse or you know, it's 2:56:14.920 --> 2:56:17.800 like a vet tech or like you know, does all 2:56:17.840 --> 2:56:20.760 of this shit that you know works like just really 2:56:20.800 --> 2:56:25.160 shitty service jobs and like you know, the stuff for 2:56:25.240 --> 2:56:27.720 like like I mean struggles like we're not even having 2:56:28.360 --> 2:56:30.960 because we're we've been like kicked all the way back 2:56:31.000 --> 2:56:34.200 down to like can we legally exist? But like you know, 2:56:34.240 --> 2:56:39.440 things like like people getting housing right, like that that 2:56:39.520 --> 2:56:41.800 kind of stuff, like those are labor struggles. The struggle 2:56:41.800 --> 2:56:46.160 for abortion is is also labor struggle because like again, 2:56:46.240 --> 2:56:49.000 like you can't fucking have abortions without workers who do 2:56:49.040 --> 2:56:51.520 the abortions. Like they don't, they don't just magically spring 2:56:51.920 --> 2:56:54.800 fully formed from like the mind of an ngo. 2:56:55.160 --> 2:56:58.680 Like and also like I mean you need you need 2:56:59.080 --> 2:57:02.519 labor protections in order to access healthcare. It's just a fact. Yeah, 2:57:02.600 --> 2:57:05.520 like you know, because that's just yet another obstacle that 2:57:05.560 --> 2:57:09.040 patients are experiencing, is getting off work. Like yeah, you 2:57:09.120 --> 2:57:11.720 got kids and you got to like fly to like 2:57:11.760 --> 2:57:15.200 across the country to access healthcare services, and you got 2:57:15.240 --> 2:57:18.800 to recover from those healthcare services, and it's like you 2:57:18.840 --> 2:57:20.720 got to have PTO and like how many people don't 2:57:20.760 --> 2:57:20.959 have that? 2:57:21.600 --> 2:57:23.800 Yeah, And it works the other way too, right, where 2:57:23.800 --> 2:57:26.200 like like this is the thing we've been seeing with Starbucks. 2:57:26.240 --> 2:57:27.920 We've been seeing this as at Google too, people trying 2:57:27.920 --> 2:57:31.760 to unionize. Is like having healthcare is a is a 2:57:31.840 --> 2:57:35.160 thing that your your work uses and like hangs over 2:57:35.200 --> 2:57:38.039 your head like to control you. And this has been 2:57:38.040 --> 2:57:40.400 an explicit thing. Like Starbucks specifically did this thing where 2:57:40.400 --> 2:57:42.400 they're like, well, if you try to unionize, like we 2:57:42.400 --> 2:57:44.280 can't guarantee you're gonna have like we're gonna like get 2:57:44.280 --> 2:57:45.320 ready your trans healthcare. 2:57:45.720 --> 2:57:46.400 Oh jesus. 2:57:46.720 --> 2:57:48.400 Yeah, and like you know, like this kind of like 2:57:48.680 --> 2:57:51.480 you know that that's like them just like dropping the 2:57:51.560 --> 2:57:54.160 mask and saying the quiet part loud, but like you know, 2:57:54.640 --> 2:58:00.160 like people's people's access to healthcare is an enormous and 2:58:00.200 --> 2:58:03.840 busting tactic. So it's it's literally just like on both 2:58:03.879 --> 2:58:06.000 sides of the struggle like it is. 2:58:06.680 --> 2:58:06.960 It is. 2:58:07.040 --> 2:58:09.160 It is just at all levels of labor struggle, and 2:58:09.200 --> 2:58:11.520 it's not thought of like that. 2:58:13.200 --> 2:58:15.280 Yeah, and again, like I know, I brought up silos 2:58:15.320 --> 2:58:18.560 before in terms of like types of healthcare, but the 2:58:18.600 --> 2:58:21.600 same silos. It's kind of like a liberal it's like 2:58:21.760 --> 2:58:25.480 liberal siloing where you're separating the issues and you can't. 2:58:26.560 --> 2:58:31.120 They're all connected. Abortion care, pregnancy care, raising your families, 2:58:32.280 --> 2:58:37.760 police violence, prison abolition, trans healthcare, labor rights, unionizing, they're 2:58:37.800 --> 2:58:43.280 all connected, and we don't connect the dots enough. I 2:58:43.280 --> 2:58:45.440 think in this country, at least the people who have 2:58:45.520 --> 2:58:49.400 power don't. And I think the separation of these issues 2:58:49.440 --> 2:58:55.160 has has really hurt us. And we're stronger together, you know, 2:58:55.240 --> 2:58:59.240 safety and solidarity and all that. So if we if 2:58:59.280 --> 2:59:03.560 every abortion care worker and abortion volunteer, abortion advocate, and 2:59:04.440 --> 2:59:07.760 you know, a queer liberation advocate, trans health advocate, just 2:59:07.800 --> 2:59:14.080 transliberation advocate, union organizer, no union member, even if you're 2:59:14.160 --> 2:59:17.920 like working for if you're a plumber. You know, if 2:59:17.959 --> 2:59:20.920 we all can identify that we have are it's all 2:59:20.959 --> 2:59:26.000 one fight and it's all connected, will be better off 2:59:26.040 --> 2:59:26.360 for it. 2:59:26.480 --> 2:59:30.600 So yeah, if we can. Yeah, And I think something 2:59:30.640 --> 2:59:34.080 that's also is really important is that like I mean 2:59:34.080 --> 2:59:36.000 this is historically, like you know, if you want to 2:59:36.000 --> 2:59:38.360 look at how working classic wents are defeated, it's you 2:59:38.400 --> 2:59:43.760 pick people off by finding something that you know, like 2:59:43.800 --> 2:59:45.959 for example, like like one of one of the ways 2:59:46.000 --> 2:59:48.240 you can sort of beat a worker's movement is by 2:59:49.120 --> 2:59:52.080 like that movement not dealing with the sort of rapid 2:59:52.120 --> 2:59:54.879 patriarchy and the movements. And you know, you can radicalize 2:59:54.879 --> 2:59:57.400 people to the right by just sort of like by 2:59:58.000 --> 3:00:00.360 like doing sort of missagist politics, or you can do 3:00:00.400 --> 3:00:02.520 the thing that like the you know this is this 3:00:02.600 --> 3:00:05.320 is the sort of the Christian democratic strategy in uh, 3:00:05.680 --> 3:00:09.520 like in Europe was you know, they they they recognize 3:00:09.520 --> 3:00:15.039 that the workers roupments like weren't really like organizing women 3:00:15.080 --> 3:00:17.040 in any substantive way, and so they you know, they 3:00:17.040 --> 3:00:19.480 were able to create this massive sort of anti communist 3:00:19.640 --> 3:00:24.920 like like center right bulwark against like organized labor by 3:00:24.959 --> 3:00:27.920 like actually organizing women, right, and you know, and this 3:00:27.959 --> 3:00:30.279 is this is something that they sort of do everywhere, 3:00:30.280 --> 3:00:32.520 which is like yeah, like if if if, if you, 3:00:32.720 --> 3:00:34.879 if you aren't fighting all of these things at the 3:00:34.879 --> 3:00:37.680 same time and conceptualizing you at the same time, like 3:00:37.800 --> 3:00:39.640 you will get you will get picked apart one by 3:00:39.640 --> 3:00:43.480 one in your individual struggle and movement will collapse and die. 3:00:43.640 --> 3:00:47.040 And that's really hard. And you know, like the deck 3:00:47.080 --> 3:00:49.280 has been stacked against us, but that that's that's the 3:00:49.320 --> 3:00:52.600 cards that we have, and yeah, we have to deal 3:00:52.680 --> 3:00:54.160 with them. 3:00:53.920 --> 3:00:57.680 And to to like be a little bit to look 3:00:57.680 --> 3:00:59.600 more like on the positive side, because like you know, 3:00:59.600 --> 3:01:03.040 it's like, yeah, we've had our asses kicked and we've 3:01:03.080 --> 3:01:07.640 lost so much. We have lost so much, We've lost 3:01:07.680 --> 3:01:10.400 so many of our basic human rights in this country. 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:14.440 But like abortions are still happening, and TRANSHLTH is still 3:01:14.440 --> 3:01:17.920 being provided, and there are communities looking out for people 3:01:17.920 --> 3:01:21.320 who are in need of these services and in need 3:01:21.360 --> 3:01:25.120 of safety because like it's not just about the basic 3:01:25.120 --> 3:01:27.880 health services, but you know, you have to be safe. Well, 3:01:28.320 --> 3:01:31.120 you know, if you're pregnant and you need healthcare, you 3:01:31.120 --> 3:01:32.520 want to be safe. And then also if you're like 3:01:32.520 --> 3:01:36.240 a trans individual and you don't feel safe, it's helpful 3:01:36.240 --> 3:01:40.680 to have those organizations there. Yeah, exactly, That's totally what 3:01:40.720 --> 3:01:45.360 I have in mind. And on the right side, like 3:01:45.640 --> 3:01:50.160 that is like those are still being like the healthcare 3:01:50.240 --> 3:01:53.879 is still being provided even if it has been decimated 3:01:54.040 --> 3:01:56.640 and people are having to move mountains in order to 3:01:56.640 --> 3:01:58.720 get there. You know, abortions are happening, and every day 3:01:59.440 --> 3:02:03.080 I'm still do and I'm still getting people abortions. There 3:02:03.120 --> 3:02:06.640 are workers who are helping people get the health care 3:02:06.640 --> 3:02:10.920 that they need, the hormones that they need, and there 3:02:10.920 --> 3:02:14.840 are people like you know, teaching defense and security and 3:02:15.160 --> 3:02:19.480 working together. And we need to continue to do this 3:02:19.520 --> 3:02:23.200 because I you know, I am really angry and I 3:02:23.240 --> 3:02:27.680 am really just fucked in the head now because of 3:02:27.720 --> 3:02:30.400 everything that I've experienced and had to witness, and it's 3:02:31.040 --> 3:02:35.879 soul crushing, but I just keep doing it because that 3:02:36.080 --> 3:02:37.039 it just needs to happen. 3:02:37.440 --> 3:02:37.760 Like this. 3:02:38.240 --> 3:02:43.640 People need this healthcare, people need this information. People need 3:02:43.640 --> 3:02:46.720 to be connected safety and solidarity, and I just you know, 3:02:46.760 --> 3:02:48.840 we have to keep going, like you know, so we 3:02:48.920 --> 3:02:51.800 have to defend the workers providing these services. We have 3:02:51.920 --> 3:02:56.720 to defend people accessing these services, whether it's abortion or 3:02:56.760 --> 3:03:01.879 trans health, and we need to just keep doing it 3:03:01.920 --> 3:03:05.000 no matter how awful we feel. And you know, this 3:03:05.040 --> 3:03:08.879 has been an incredibly hard year and I have had 3:03:08.920 --> 3:03:12.360 conversations that I never would have wanted to have ever 3:03:13.000 --> 3:03:14.360 and that are hard to carry with me. And I'm 3:03:14.360 --> 3:03:16.560 going to carry these conversations. You know, these memories are 3:03:16.600 --> 3:03:17.800 like in my head now and then I have them 3:03:17.800 --> 3:03:21.360 for the rest of my life maybe, and they're they're 3:03:21.360 --> 3:03:23.640 in my head, you know, they're there. I've it's happened. 3:03:24.240 --> 3:03:28.160 And I'm just really grateful for the other people doing 3:03:28.200 --> 3:03:32.840 this work and that they're there and that I'm not 3:03:32.879 --> 3:03:35.920 the only one feeling this way, and that we have 3:03:36.000 --> 3:03:39.039 each other's backs and that we we do have the 3:03:39.040 --> 3:03:40.720 same fight. Like knowing that we have the same fight, 3:03:40.760 --> 3:03:46.040 I'm like, you know that solidarity means means everything right now, 3:03:47.680 --> 3:03:49.680 because it's more than just like winning or losing, Like, yeah, 3:03:49.720 --> 3:03:52.440 we've we've lost a lot, and we're continuing to lose 3:03:52.440 --> 3:03:57.200 a lot, but we're all still here and we all 3:03:57.200 --> 3:04:03.200 still need. We still need, like we need to just 3:04:03.360 --> 3:04:06.240 take care of ourselves and each other still. So I'm 3:04:06.280 --> 3:04:08.040 going to keep doing this work. I know that other 3:04:08.080 --> 3:04:10.800 people are going to keep doing this work, and I 3:04:10.840 --> 3:04:13.640 know that there will always be help available. Whether you know, 3:04:13.840 --> 3:04:15.879 finding it is one thing, but I know that it 3:04:15.920 --> 3:04:19.480 will always be there, and I try to take solace 3:04:19.560 --> 3:04:24.119 in that because this is this is a collective trauma 3:04:25.120 --> 3:04:28.039 that our generation is going to see out for the 3:04:28.040 --> 3:04:29.760 rest of our lives, and it's going to bleed into 3:04:29.800 --> 3:04:33.200 the next generation. And there's a lot I hope for, 3:04:34.000 --> 3:04:36.480 you know, before I die, there's a lot I hope 3:04:36.480 --> 3:04:40.720 to see. So I hope that I see it to 3:04:40.800 --> 3:04:42.200 end this on a positive note because I know at 3:04:42.200 --> 3:04:44.720 the very beginning, I know, like when we first started 3:04:44.760 --> 3:04:47.520 talking Mia, I saw we wanted to end in a 3:04:47.560 --> 3:04:51.120 positive note. So that involves me sharing like the thing 3:04:51.160 --> 3:04:55.720 that cheers me up the most and that like pushes 3:04:55.760 --> 3:04:58.760 all the right buttons for me. But there have been 3:04:58.840 --> 3:05:02.680 some good things terms of like abortion access in the 3:05:02.760 --> 3:05:07.240 last six months, So I want to share that it 3:05:07.280 --> 3:05:15.200 all starts. It starts with partners Clinic uh. They Partner's 3:05:15.200 --> 3:05:19.320 Clinic is an ull trimester clinic in in Maryland and 3:05:19.440 --> 3:05:24.039 they opened this year and they were doing fundraising, and 3:05:24.080 --> 3:05:27.760 first of all, they're amazing. They're an amazing team of workers, 3:05:28.680 --> 3:05:33.920 amazing abortion providers. I love Partners Clinic there. I just 3:05:33.959 --> 3:05:37.960 I could not, I cannot praise them enough. And they 3:05:38.240 --> 3:05:40.600 they were fundraising to open their clinic and have everything 3:05:40.600 --> 3:05:42.680 that they need and you know, you know, have money 3:05:42.720 --> 3:05:46.360 for staff and everything. And it was picked up by 3:05:47.320 --> 3:05:51.960 prison Culture, uh more commonly that's like her online handle. 3:05:52.000 --> 3:05:53.800 A lot of people like know her as prison Culture, 3:05:53.840 --> 3:05:58.840 but Mariamikaba and she started fundraising for them, and she 3:05:59.720 --> 3:06:02.600 was a to help so much that they surpass their 3:06:02.600 --> 3:06:06.280 goal and they opened and now we have another all 3:06:06.280 --> 3:06:10.240 trimester abortion clinic in the United States, staffed by the 3:06:10.240 --> 3:06:15.800 most compassionate, amazing, hardworking individuals. And that cheered me up 3:06:15.840 --> 3:06:21.760 so much because I obviously love Mary Amacaba and prison abolition. 3:06:21.959 --> 3:06:26.600 I know, I'm a prison abolitionist, so seeing her like 3:06:27.520 --> 3:06:30.360 seeing her see how the issues are connected that they're 3:06:30.400 --> 3:06:35.360 like that, you know, they go together, and organizing for 3:06:35.560 --> 3:06:37.959 that on top of the work that she is already 3:06:38.000 --> 3:06:42.000 doing for abolition. I was just like so happy to 3:06:42.080 --> 3:06:49.520 see that. And on the topic of all trimester abortion clinics, 3:06:50.120 --> 3:06:53.720 there is another one opening up as well, and this 3:06:53.800 --> 3:06:56.600 cheers me up immensely as well. They are called the 3:06:56.800 --> 3:07:00.560 Valley Abortion Group. They're not open yet, they're currently unraising. 3:07:00.760 --> 3:07:04.520 I could probably send you the link to post maybe. Yeah, 3:07:04.600 --> 3:07:07.880 so they're not open yet, but you know, they're getting there. 3:07:07.959 --> 3:07:10.480 And they're called the Value Abortion Group. They're gonna be 3:07:10.480 --> 3:07:13.400 another ultrimester clinic and they're going to be located in 3:07:13.440 --> 3:07:16.000 New Mexico and they're I just want to point out 3:07:16.000 --> 3:07:18.680 that their acronym is VAGE, which I just I think 3:07:18.760 --> 3:07:19.880 is really important to point out. 3:07:20.040 --> 3:07:20.240 Hell. 3:07:20.360 --> 3:07:24.200 Yeah, so you know, we saw Partners open and that 3:07:24.320 --> 3:07:25.840 was amazing, and now we're going to have another one 3:07:25.840 --> 3:07:28.920 opening up and that's amazing. So, you know, love and 3:07:28.920 --> 3:07:32.680 support for Value Abortion Group because honestly, the more we 3:07:32.720 --> 3:07:35.560 need a abortion clinics period, like we need more of them, 3:07:36.120 --> 3:07:41.240 but especially all trimester, especially now that these bands have 3:07:41.280 --> 3:07:44.720 been pushing people further and further along into the pregnancy 3:07:44.879 --> 3:07:47.480 before they can access these services. It's so important for 3:07:47.520 --> 3:07:49.440 them to exist. And on this topic, I also want 3:07:49.480 --> 3:07:52.400 to bring up that you know, there are stories out 3:07:52.440 --> 3:07:54.840 there of people who it takes them six months to 3:07:54.879 --> 3:07:58.080 get an abortion appointment. Six months, Chris, I just want 3:07:58.080 --> 3:08:00.160 to bring that up because that's happening. Because I know 3:08:00.200 --> 3:08:02.560 that I've said like five weeks a lot while we're talking, 3:08:02.600 --> 3:08:04.800 but like it takes some people six months. So it's 3:08:04.840 --> 3:08:08.000 really important for these ultrimester abortion clinics to exist and 3:08:08.400 --> 3:08:12.760 for us and the communities that we're part of to 3:08:13.200 --> 3:08:16.760 welcome them with open arms and like big love. And 3:08:17.120 --> 3:08:19.800 also on the same topic of good news things that 3:08:19.879 --> 3:08:23.880 cheer me up, prison abolition, abortion access, all of these 3:08:23.879 --> 3:08:29.520 good good topics, prison culture Mary Macaba is now fundraising 3:08:29.720 --> 3:08:34.200 for another abortion practical support group, and I have to 3:08:34.240 --> 3:08:36.480 mention this up because mention this because this fundraising is 3:08:36.480 --> 3:08:39.760 happening right now. So if you go to prison Cultures Twitter, 3:08:39.959 --> 3:08:42.160 she's like fundraising for it every single day, but she 3:08:42.280 --> 3:08:47.600 is fundraising for the Online Abortion Resource Squad, So Online 3:08:47.640 --> 3:08:52.080 Abortion Resource Squad or OARS for short. What they are 3:08:52.400 --> 3:08:55.400 is they are a entirely volunteer organization, which is why 3:08:55.400 --> 3:08:57.320 they need to pay them for their labor. This is 3:08:57.320 --> 3:09:04.480 really important work that monitors, moderates, and provides quality posts 3:09:04.520 --> 3:09:08.400 on our abortion was our slash abortion. How should I 3:09:08.480 --> 3:09:12.920 read that? So basically our slash abortion. So the reddit 3:09:13.400 --> 3:09:18.560 the subreddit for just abortion on Reddit, which I think 3:09:18.560 --> 3:09:21.240 that like when I immediately say that, some people might 3:09:21.280 --> 3:09:26.800 not realize how important that is. But as these bands 3:09:26.840 --> 3:09:29.920 have just spread and gotten worse and the abortion access 3:09:29.920 --> 3:09:33.360 doesorts have widened, it is so important for people to 3:09:33.400 --> 3:09:36.160 be able to access quality information, and a lot of 3:09:36.160 --> 3:09:39.400 people go to Reddit, Like so many people go to 3:09:39.440 --> 3:09:42.959 Reddit to find out information. So like the daily page 3:09:43.040 --> 3:09:46.520 hits for our slash abortion is just up and up 3:09:46.560 --> 3:09:49.599 and up and up. And there's a group of volunteers 3:09:50.160 --> 3:09:54.959 that you know, like donate their their their hours, their 3:09:55.000 --> 3:09:59.480 free time, you know, their energy to to give people 3:09:59.760 --> 3:10:02.680 the answers that they're looking for and to like walk 3:10:02.720 --> 3:10:05.480 them through a process. Because a lot of people, you know, 3:10:05.480 --> 3:10:07.320 they want to help, so they post links. So they're like, oh, 3:10:07.360 --> 3:10:10.240 you you're in a band state and you can't access services, 3:10:10.280 --> 3:10:12.560 so they just post a link to I don't know, 3:10:12.640 --> 3:10:16.119 like aid access. But it's more than it's not that easy, 3:10:16.200 --> 3:10:18.000 Like you can't just like give somebody a link to 3:10:18.040 --> 3:10:20.360 aid access and be like here's your abortion. No, like 3:10:20.400 --> 3:10:22.400 you need to ask questions. You need somebody to assist 3:10:22.400 --> 3:10:25.000 you follow up questions if something doesn't work, like oh 3:10:25.000 --> 3:10:26.840 my god, the payment's not working, like you need help? 3:10:27.320 --> 3:10:30.879 And or is the online Abortion Resource Squad. They go 3:10:30.920 --> 3:10:33.000 into our abortion every single day and they make sure 3:10:33.000 --> 3:10:37.360 that people get help. And they've been doing this labor 3:10:37.400 --> 3:10:41.360 for free, and now prison culture is helping them basically 3:10:41.360 --> 3:10:43.560 get them, get them paid, get them money, get them, 3:10:43.640 --> 3:10:46.400 get them make it so that way they can do that, 3:10:46.600 --> 3:10:50.760 like you know, they don't have to, you know, find 3:10:50.760 --> 3:10:53.920 different options for employment. You know, they don't have to 3:10:54.080 --> 3:10:57.960 struggle to get by like they they there's money sustaining them. 3:10:58.080 --> 3:10:59.480 So that way they can make sure that people have 3:10:59.520 --> 3:11:02.240 their questions answered all day and that is so important. 3:11:02.400 --> 3:11:06.160 Like I just like, I just I never thought, like 3:11:06.200 --> 3:11:08.959 if you had asked me, like like seven years ago, 3:11:09.240 --> 3:11:12.360 if I thought people posting on Reddit would be life saving, 3:11:12.760 --> 3:11:18.120 I would have totally like just not taken that seriously. 3:11:18.200 --> 3:11:20.440 But now I'm like, I'm like, oh my god, people 3:11:20.440 --> 3:11:22.920 are flocking to Reddit every day to try to find 3:11:22.920 --> 3:11:24.760 out how to get an abortion, and there are people 3:11:24.879 --> 3:11:28.000 volunteering their time to get them quality answers and make 3:11:28.000 --> 3:11:29.440 sure that they get the care that they're looking for. 3:11:29.920 --> 3:11:36.360 And I love that. I love that an abolitionist, like 3:11:36.400 --> 3:11:39.240 a prison abolition police in prison abolitionists, has identified that 3:11:39.320 --> 3:11:43.640 this is a significant need that people in these different 3:11:43.640 --> 3:11:47.680 communities that are typically like a little bit siloed are 3:11:48.560 --> 3:11:51.760 supporting each other's causes. I think that abolition and abortion 3:11:51.879 --> 3:11:58.080 go hand in hand. And this just cheers me up immensely. 3:11:58.120 --> 3:12:01.680 And the fact that like there are resource hubs online 3:12:01.879 --> 3:12:05.840 that are that are like that are coming to bat 3:12:05.959 --> 3:12:09.680 you know, like, oh, this horrible thing has happened. Roe 3:12:09.760 --> 3:12:12.600 v Wade has been overturned, and what are we gonna do? 3:12:12.640 --> 3:12:16.040 And it's like, well, go go answer people's questions on Reddit, 3:12:17.920 --> 3:12:21.080 and yeah, so I wanted to share that because I 3:12:21.120 --> 3:12:26.760 said a lot of sad stuff about how horrifying and 3:12:26.800 --> 3:12:29.680 traumatic and this all is and how there's so much 3:12:29.720 --> 3:12:33.000 human suffering. So it's just because of that, I just 3:12:33.080 --> 3:12:36.280 I also wanted to to take time to say, like, hey, 3:12:37.080 --> 3:12:39.600 there are people making sure that people get care. There 3:12:39.640 --> 3:12:45.800 are amazing people you know working to get people paid 3:12:46.240 --> 3:12:49.720 and get people funding and make it so that way 3:12:49.760 --> 3:12:53.000 this work is sustainable, because like sustainability is its own thing, 3:12:53.120 --> 3:12:59.039 Like yeah, who like it? Is hard to fight against fascism, 3:12:59.160 --> 3:13:04.840 Like it's we're being we're having our are basic human 3:13:04.920 --> 3:13:08.720 rights violated on a daily basis, and we are being dehumanized, 3:13:08.800 --> 3:13:14.600 and that is incredibly difficult to fight constantly on top 3:13:14.640 --> 3:13:17.640 of having to pay your bills and you know, like 3:13:17.800 --> 3:13:19.480 deal with whatever the heck's going on in your life. 3:13:20.240 --> 3:13:24.720 So I'm just like, I'm really grateful for Mary Micaba 3:13:24.879 --> 3:13:27.160 and everyone who has helped her. I'm really grateful for 3:13:28.360 --> 3:13:34.520 Partners and Value Abortion Group BADGE, and I am really 3:13:35.120 --> 3:13:39.240 grateful for the Online Abortion Resource squad Ors and all 3:13:39.240 --> 3:13:43.760 of their amazing volunteers. And I hope that like, if 3:13:43.800 --> 3:13:48.360 somebody is feeling helpless and and like feeling like they 3:13:48.360 --> 3:13:52.879 don't know what to do in these really scary times, 3:13:52.920 --> 3:13:57.640 they can look toward, like look to to these examples 3:13:57.680 --> 3:14:01.240 and be like, well, I can I can provide good 3:14:01.240 --> 3:14:06.199 information to people. I can share donation opportunities or donate myself, 3:14:06.360 --> 3:14:13.640 and I can uplift this stuff and recognize how valuable 3:14:14.959 --> 3:14:18.480 even posting online can be sometimes because I posting online 3:14:18.560 --> 3:14:20.360 usually not a good thing. But you know, if you 3:14:20.400 --> 3:14:24.640 are helping somebody get healthcare and you're utilizing like you know, 3:14:25.080 --> 3:14:30.560 a popular platform to spread that information. You're you're you're 3:14:30.560 --> 3:14:32.600 doing a great job, and you deserve all the shout outs. 3:14:32.640 --> 3:14:36.120 So yeah, so yeah, those are some really those that's 3:14:36.160 --> 3:14:38.720 what's cheering me up in the year twenty twenty three. 3:14:39.040 --> 3:14:45.800 As I approach like June twenty fourth, the anniversary, I'm like, 3:14:45.840 --> 3:14:51.240 oh my god, everything's really awful, but this, this is 3:14:51.240 --> 3:14:52.160 what's cheering me up. 3:14:53.200 --> 3:14:57.480 So yeah, I don't know. Well, okay, I guess I 3:14:57.480 --> 3:14:59.640 do know why this is spontaneously leapt to my head 3:14:59.640 --> 3:15:01.840 when the thing that I the thing that I always 3:15:01.840 --> 3:15:05.560 think about is that there's a Zappatista slogan that goes 3:15:05.600 --> 3:15:09.720 to pot of lives. The struggle continues, and yeah, I mean, 3:15:09.959 --> 3:15:12.879 I don't have anything else. It's you know, but I 3:15:12.879 --> 3:15:16.760 mean that struggle. Look like the thing about this right 3:15:16.840 --> 3:15:20.920 like there there's a reason that it's a like they 3:15:20.959 --> 3:15:23.119 have to spend all of this effort on it because 3:15:23.400 --> 3:15:27.160 there is actually a struggle, and the fact that they 3:15:27.200 --> 3:15:29.240 have to they spend so much effort, so much resources, 3:15:29.360 --> 3:15:30.720 so much of their time, and so much of their 3:15:30.760 --> 3:15:34.600 power on this, like is also proof of their weakness, 3:15:34.640 --> 3:15:36.680 that this is not something that they can do just 3:15:36.760 --> 3:15:38.920 sort of neutrally right, and it's it's something that can 3:15:38.959 --> 3:15:42.720 be stopped, it can be rolled back. And yeah, I 3:15:42.760 --> 3:15:45.840 mean the the fact that it is a struggle like 3:15:46.400 --> 3:15:50.080 in and of itself like implies that they're wrong in 3:15:50.160 --> 3:15:52.960 in and of itself, demonstrates that we are also still fighting, 3:15:53.200 --> 3:15:55.760 and we are going to continue fighting and one day 3:15:55.760 --> 3:15:57.120 we are going to beat these fuckers. 3:15:57.600 --> 3:16:01.200 Yep, I believe it. I mean, like, yeah, I'm like 3:16:01.240 --> 3:16:05.160 talking openly and honestly about the toll of the human suffering. 3:16:05.320 --> 3:16:07.760 But I believe that we can stop this if we 3:16:07.920 --> 3:16:11.600 if we keep going, and I I hope I see 3:16:11.600 --> 3:16:15.200 that in my lifetime. And I uh, and I think 3:16:15.400 --> 3:16:17.720 it's it's a sada shakuri. I think where is where 3:16:17.720 --> 3:16:23.680 there's oppression, there is resistance that that that makes me 3:16:23.720 --> 3:16:27.680 feel better, you know, like because which ah, God, God, 3:16:27.800 --> 3:16:30.400 just like I know is speaking of liberals, there's I 3:16:30.440 --> 3:16:33.720 just don't understand the take where it's like, oh, these 3:16:33.720 --> 3:16:35.720 red states are getting what they deserve. Texas is getting 3:16:35.760 --> 3:16:38.000 what the deserves, Florida is getting with what they deserve, 3:16:38.040 --> 3:16:42.440 and it's like no, like they they're being oppressed and 3:16:42.480 --> 3:16:46.000 they are fighting their oppression. And I love people in 3:16:46.040 --> 3:16:50.080 those states, and I love the people fighting, and I 3:16:50.320 --> 3:16:51.680 I just I don't know how you can look at 3:16:51.680 --> 3:16:53.520 that and not be filled with like love and awe, 3:16:54.640 --> 3:16:56.400 just like in the way that I'm filled with like 3:16:56.440 --> 3:17:00.320 love and awe when I see like how hard people 3:17:00.400 --> 3:17:03.480 are working to navigate these barriers and to access the 3:17:03.480 --> 3:17:05.600 health care that they need. Like, I'm just like, you 3:17:05.640 --> 3:17:09.200 are being so brave, you are You're so strong to 3:17:09.280 --> 3:17:13.640 do this, and like not everyone is seeing it, you know, 3:17:13.680 --> 3:17:16.400 because like these are like you know, private like journeys 3:17:16.400 --> 3:17:19.040 to get healthcare, but like I'm seeing it, and I'm like, God, 3:17:19.080 --> 3:17:21.200 these people are so amazing, and people are fighting so 3:17:21.320 --> 3:17:23.920 hard and they are continuing to struggle and they're not 3:17:23.959 --> 3:17:26.760 giving I mean, some people are giving up because like 3:17:26.920 --> 3:17:29.320 the state is like forcing it on them, but like 3:17:29.360 --> 3:17:32.840 a lot of people aren't giving up. And I am 3:17:33.440 --> 3:17:38.640 I'm constantly in awe about that because yeah, yeah, it's 3:17:38.640 --> 3:17:41.039 a lot of witnessing human suffering and people suffer, but 3:17:41.120 --> 3:17:43.400 also it's witnessing a lot of people be really strong 3:17:43.800 --> 3:17:49.720 and really fight and for what they deserve. And I'm 3:17:49.720 --> 3:17:51.880 so glad I get to witness that too, even though 3:17:51.920 --> 3:17:54.840 I wish you no I didn't have to see all 3:17:54.879 --> 3:17:59.560 the suffering, but you know, I'm really grateful to see 3:17:59.600 --> 3:18:07.200 the struggle too. I love human beings and I'm just 3:18:08.520 --> 3:18:10.920 we're awesome, like we I mean, a lot of us aren't, 3:18:10.959 --> 3:18:15.120 but the rest of us are oks putting up a 3:18:15.120 --> 3:18:18.680 good fight. So I think we can win. I think 3:18:18.680 --> 3:18:19.160 we can win. 3:18:19.560 --> 3:18:21.480 Yeah. 3:18:21.600 --> 3:18:23.720 Yeah, So I know we've talked about a few links. 3:18:23.879 --> 3:18:26.360 Do you have anything else that, any other links that 3:18:26.400 --> 3:18:28.320 you want to talk about to send people to? 3:18:29.040 --> 3:18:31.600 So yeah, Jesus. 3:18:31.400 --> 3:18:33.440 Christ, do you have anything else you want to send 3:18:33.480 --> 3:18:35.879 people to so that they can help support the struggles 3:18:35.879 --> 3:18:36.440 that are going on. 3:18:38.600 --> 3:18:40.320 I don't think I have any additional ones I want 3:18:40.360 --> 3:18:43.880 to give right now. I think that the ones that 3:18:43.920 --> 3:18:47.879 I've brought up like deserve all of the attention right now. 3:18:48.120 --> 3:18:50.160 So I'm just gonna like say him again. So I 3:18:50.200 --> 3:18:53.760 know previously I mentioned the Texas Equal Access Fund the 3:18:53.800 --> 3:18:57.040 T Fund, and Texas is doing a lot right now, 3:18:57.800 --> 3:19:00.320 and honestly, the other Texas funds are too. Was just 3:19:00.360 --> 3:19:04.080 like the one that I see the most. Chicago Abortion 3:19:04.240 --> 3:19:10.240 Fund is doing amazing work right now. Partners Clinic, which 3:19:10.280 --> 3:19:14.160 is located in Maryland, like shout out to their team. 3:19:14.320 --> 3:19:18.520 I love them so much. They are they they are 3:19:18.600 --> 3:19:22.960 like the light in the darkness. Right now, Valley Abortion 3:19:23.080 --> 3:19:27.920 group Badge, which will hopefully be opening I don't know 3:19:27.920 --> 3:19:30.080 when they're opening, but I'm looking forward to them opening 3:19:30.120 --> 3:19:33.280 so much in New Mexico. And and then the online 3:19:33.440 --> 3:19:38.279 Abortion Resource squad Ors, the Saints of our Slash Abortion, 3:19:38.879 --> 3:19:42.600 Like I just I want to like shout them out 3:19:42.879 --> 3:19:45.720 with this like platform that I have right now, So 3:19:45.879 --> 3:19:48.480 Google all them, check them out, click the links, and 3:19:48.520 --> 3:19:51.879 then of course, you know, again your local abortion fund, 3:19:52.040 --> 3:19:55.640 like it just just don't get tired of hearing donate 3:19:55.680 --> 3:19:57.360 to your local abortion fund, just like say it again, 3:19:58.000 --> 3:19:59.480 just like right out on the back of your eyeballs. 3:20:01.120 --> 3:20:04.760 It's that. That's that's what we getting. That's what's getting 3:20:04.760 --> 3:20:10.560 people health care right now, people who can't wait. So yeah, 3:20:10.600 --> 3:20:14.280 I just like uplifting all those things again. Like I'm 3:20:14.320 --> 3:20:18.000 sure like there are there are a lot of amazing 3:20:18.000 --> 3:20:21.760 groups doing work. I could probably like take like an 3:20:21.800 --> 3:20:25.039 hour listing all of them, but uh, like right now, 3:20:25.240 --> 3:20:29.120 those are the ones where I'm like, hell, yeah, this 3:20:29.240 --> 3:20:29.960 is amazing. 3:20:31.600 --> 3:20:39.280 So yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you again so much 3:20:39.400 --> 3:20:41.680 for for coming and talking with us. 3:20:41.680 --> 3:20:42.119 About this. 3:20:44.360 --> 3:20:48.320 Yeah. I love talking about all of the pain and suffering. 3:20:48.520 --> 3:20:51.480 And you know, catch me outside screaming at the sky 3:20:51.560 --> 3:20:55.519 and shaking my fist and drinking a lot of mimosas. 3:20:56.280 --> 3:20:57.920 Yeah, in the next couple of weeks. 3:20:58.800 --> 3:21:01.160 This is a rough This is rough month. This is 3:21:01.160 --> 3:21:06.160 a rough month. I'm not happy to be here, but 3:21:06.840 --> 3:21:11.240 I'm happy about some things. Just this is not It's 3:21:11.240 --> 3:21:13.080 been a hard year. It's been a really hard year. 3:21:16.360 --> 3:21:17.840 But I'm happy to be on this podcast. 3:21:19.720 --> 3:21:23.400 Yeah, And I hope all of you, in literally whatever 3:21:23.440 --> 3:21:29.560 way you can, like do something to make this better, 3:21:30.640 --> 3:21:34.560 because we all owe it to each other, and we 3:21:34.640 --> 3:21:37.160 owe it to everyone who has to live under the 3:21:37.200 --> 3:21:40.920 system that you know, like hasn't built in our name 3:21:41.360 --> 3:21:44.880 to do something and not to just sort of sit 3:21:44.959 --> 3:21:47.560 back and let this just let the engine to suffering 3:21:48.040 --> 3:21:49.400 keep rolling over more people. 3:21:50.040 --> 3:21:52.600 And even small things are valuable too. I feel like 3:21:52.640 --> 3:21:53.880 a lot of I've known a lot of people who 3:21:53.920 --> 3:21:55.960 are like, you know, like, oh, you know, I got 3:21:55.959 --> 3:21:57.880 a lot going on and I can't I don't know 3:21:57.920 --> 3:21:59.480 how to. I just can't help that much. And it's 3:21:59.480 --> 3:22:01.520 like even the little things you do are meaningful, Like 3:22:02.440 --> 3:22:06.680 even like ten dollars is like like somebody who's traveling's lunch, 3:22:06.800 --> 3:22:10.560 you know, Like that's a big deal. So don't don't 3:22:10.640 --> 3:22:13.880 undersell the little things that you can do. Even little 3:22:13.879 --> 3:22:16.600 things are really meaningful right now, like what you have 3:22:16.640 --> 3:22:21.720 the capacity for. No one's gonna I'm not gonna shake 3:22:21.760 --> 3:22:27.240 a stick at it. I think any contribution is incredibly valuable, 3:22:27.280 --> 3:22:28.160 no matter how small. 3:22:28.320 --> 3:22:31.800 So unless you're rich, Yeah, unless you're rich, which can unless. 3:22:31.520 --> 3:22:34.120 You're rich, than what are you doing? Like why So 3:22:34.360 --> 3:22:36.119 there are some people I'm like, why are they like, 3:22:36.320 --> 3:22:40.199 oh oh oh, while I'm here, while I'm actually speaking 3:22:40.200 --> 3:22:42.879 of rich while I'm on a podcast, and we can 3:22:42.879 --> 3:22:45.840 talk about things like people who can help, like I'm 3:22:45.879 --> 3:22:48.640 thinking about like Taylor Swift right now, Like Taylor Swift 3:22:48.640 --> 3:22:51.080 can probably donate so much money to abortion funds right 3:22:51.120 --> 3:22:55.360 because like she's touring right now, and she's she's having 3:22:55.360 --> 3:22:57.280 all these concerts and various parts of the world, and 3:22:57.320 --> 3:23:02.040 those hotel prices are going up like crazy. So like 3:23:02.440 --> 3:23:05.400 I know that she had a concert in Chicago recently, 3:23:05.879 --> 3:23:08.800 and there the Chicago Abortion Fund was like trying to 3:23:08.840 --> 3:23:12.000 book hotels for traveling abortion patients. So patients who are 3:23:12.120 --> 3:23:16.040 traveling from band States to get abortion services in Chicago, 3:23:16.080 --> 3:23:18.640 and they were paying like way more for the hotel 3:23:19.560 --> 3:23:23.520 hotel costs because of the local Taylor Swift concert. And 3:23:23.560 --> 3:23:25.960 it's like, Taylor Swift, donate to abortion funds. What are 3:23:26.000 --> 3:23:30.160 you doing? You're driving out hotel prices for patients. Just donate, 3:23:30.240 --> 3:23:33.560 donate to abortion funds, Taylor Swift. So that's what I 3:23:33.760 --> 3:23:36.040 just wanted to add that, or any artists who's driving 3:23:36.080 --> 3:23:39.560 up hotel praces. Come on, people need health care. What 3:23:39.600 --> 3:23:40.080 are you doing? 3:23:43.320 --> 3:23:47.080 What wonderful system that we live in. Wonderful opportunity in 3:23:47.120 --> 3:23:49.240 this generation to make it not be like that? 3:23:50.600 --> 3:23:53.840 I know, right, Like I resent having to ask, but 3:23:54.000 --> 3:23:54.480 still ye. 3:23:56.000 --> 3:23:58.920 Yeah, so I guess that's that's my that's my closing message. 3:23:59.720 --> 3:24:01.840 Go out into the world and make the world not 3:24:02.000 --> 3:24:02.840 fucking like this. 3:24:03.280 --> 3:24:05.200 Yeah, yeah, can we not? 3:24:05.720 --> 3:24:08.879 Yeah? 3:24:08.959 --> 3:24:12.119 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:24:12.200 --> 3:24:14.080 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:24:14.680 --> 3:24:17.160 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:24:17.280 --> 3:24:19.959 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:24:19.959 --> 3:24:23.080 coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:24:23.120 --> 3:24:26.280 Apple Podcasts or Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 3:24:26.320 --> 3:24:27.720 find sources for it could happen here. 3:24:27.800 --> 3:24:32.280 Updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.