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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're a kid

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Speaker 1: and you're growing up out in the heartland, rural areas,

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Speaker 1: you know what you spend most of the time doing,

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Speaker 1: other than probably working on property that your parents have.

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Speaker 1: You go to school, there's no city really to go

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Speaker 1: into and hang out at. You rely heavily on your

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Speaker 1: friends for entertainment. You entertain one another, actually, and those

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Speaker 1: forms of entertainment can involve any number of things. Sitting

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Speaker 1: around a bonfire, having a few beers even under a age,

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Speaker 1: riding around in the back of your buddy's pickup truck,

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Speaker 1: just going to spontaneous parties at someone's home. But you know,

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Speaker 1: even with all that going on on, you still there's

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Speaker 1: a level of safety and familiarity you have with that

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Speaker 1: location that you grow up in. Today, we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss a death that I guess now has been under

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Speaker 1: investigation for near about a year. It's a death that

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Speaker 1: occurred out in rural Oklahoma. It's a death involving a

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Speaker 1: young man who was found his body was found broken

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Speaker 1: and bleeding on the side of a road, wearing shoes

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Speaker 1: and nothing else but the shoes that he was wearing

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Speaker 1: didn't match. As a matter of fact, one of the

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Speaker 1: shoes belong to someone else. Today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the death and autopsy of no oppress Grove. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josephcott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. We got

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of rural Now.

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Speaker 2: We live in a rural area.

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Speaker 3: I'm not that dissimilar from Aklahoma where Noah press Grove

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Speaker 3: grew up. He's nineteen, graduated from high school, and he's

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Speaker 3: at an end of summer Labor day, twenty second birthday

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Speaker 3: party all rolled into one on this weekend. The reason

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Speaker 3: we're talking about Noah press Groves death is because his

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Speaker 3: autopsy has come out. Police are still on investigating this

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Speaker 3: as if it's a murder, and yet it doesn't fit

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Speaker 3: into a hit and run, and the best that police

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Speaker 3: can come up with is that maybe he fell out

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Speaker 3: of the back of a truck. The injuries don't match

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Speaker 3: that either. So today we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 3: death and the autopsy of nineteen year old Noah press Grove.

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Speaker 2: But before we do that, I.

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Speaker 3: Want to say a very quick hello and thank you

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Speaker 3: to Jennifer Williamson Ward. She is a friend of Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 3: and she sent a message to us about this story,

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Speaker 3: and Jennifer, I have to tell you I mentioned it

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Speaker 3: to Joe and in the world that we live in

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Speaker 3: terms of on the air radio and TV and what

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Speaker 3: have you and podcasting, this is a story that Joe

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Speaker 3: has covered extensively from Court, TV to Nancy to News Nation.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure. I mean there's a.

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Speaker 3: Crime related show, they asked Joe, especially when it deals

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Speaker 3: with something along the lines of what we're getting ready

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Speaker 3: to talk about, and that is the death of a

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Speaker 3: nineteen year old man who, by the way, I've never

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Speaker 3: seen a laundry list of injuries so severe when there

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Speaker 3: was not a murder investigation.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing, isn't it. You know, Because the injuries

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Speaker 1: are so extensive that he was presenting with at autopsy,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that the pathologist that's doing the examination

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Speaker 1: is scratching their head and they're thinking, well, where do

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Speaker 1: I begin, you know, because when they would have gotten

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Speaker 1: the young man's body, there would have been some external manifestations,

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Speaker 1: as we know that there were or relative to injuries

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Speaker 1: that could be evidenced externally. But you know, when I

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Speaker 1: can almost see because I've had to look on my face.

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Speaker 1: I can almost see the look on everyone's faces when

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Speaker 1: they started doing post mortem X rays on this kid's body,

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Speaker 1: and it would have been so glaringly obvious the trauma

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Speaker 1: that this kid sustained. Whenever you have a case like

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Speaker 1: this day, where you've got so much trauma, it's important

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Speaker 1: and it's almost like a game plan. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you go into a game, a big game, there's so

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Speaker 1: many moving parts. You need to have enough data on

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Speaker 1: your side to understand what you're going to do. Because

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Speaker 1: if you just go into a case like this randomly

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Speaker 1: without doing any kind of pre investigation or a pre

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Speaker 1: examination of the body, an external examination which includes X rays,

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Speaker 1: you're bumped around in the dark and you're going to

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Speaker 1: miss something. So if you can go in with this

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Speaker 1: idea of Okay, this is what the radiographs are showing me,

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Speaker 1: this is the information that has come in from law

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Speaker 1: enforcement that we're at the scene, this is information that

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Speaker 1: they have gotten through interviews. You need to be armed

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Speaker 1: with this because Dave, this is so complex, it's so intertwined,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know where where one group of injuries

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Speaker 1: stops and the other one starts, and the big thing

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Speaker 1: here is sequencing how did all of this occur? Because

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Speaker 1: there's so much here.

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Speaker 3: So when a situation arises like this, in this particular case,

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Speaker 3: where there had been a party taking place over a

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Speaker 3: weekend and Noah's body is found at five point fifty

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Speaker 3: three am on September the fourth, now we're dealing with

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Speaker 3: last September. His body was found on the side of

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Speaker 3: the road. He was curled up in the fetal position,

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Speaker 3: naked except for as you mentioned, the mixed match shoes.

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Speaker 3: One was not even his Passing truck drivers saw him

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Speaker 3: and reported it called nine to one one. Now Noah

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Speaker 3: has a brother that had heard I don't know how okay,

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Speaker 3: but there was a lot of you know, calls are

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Speaker 3: being made early on. Of course at truck.

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Speaker 1: It's a small town and news travels.

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Speaker 3: Course, he knew something had happened, that Noah was whatever,

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Speaker 3: and he goes to the scene. Now, by the time

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Speaker 3: his brother gets there, Noah's body has already been covered.

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Speaker 3: But he said he could recognize Noah from the shape

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Speaker 3: of his body, you know, on the ground. He was

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Speaker 3: in the fetal position, and the blood had soaked through

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Speaker 3: the sheet that they had covering him, and just so

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Speaker 3: you know that that would be the sheet whatever laying

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Speaker 3: on top of his body, on top of some area

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Speaker 3: that had blood, because if it was I tend to

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Speaker 3: think of seeping as going down, not up. But his

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Speaker 3: brother was talking about certain things that he saw at

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Speaker 3: the scene, and I in coming to this blind because

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Speaker 3: I didn't want any kind of preconceived notions as to

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Speaker 3: what had taken placetcha and his brother said, I saw teeth, teeth,

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Speaker 3: and I'm okay, he's finding teeth and a pair of

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Speaker 3: shorts are folded.

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Speaker 2: Near him.

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Speaker 3: He's nude, he's in a fetal position. I find teeth

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Speaker 3: near his body, his teeth and a pair of shorts

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Speaker 3: folded near his body. So here we go, Joe. It's

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Speaker 3: just before six in the morning. Police show up. They

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Speaker 3: start doing the investigation. All right, he's been at a

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Speaker 3: party during the course of the weekend. The injuries to

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Speaker 3: this young man, we're going to have to go through

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Speaker 3: them very carefully because they are so extensive. Yes, and

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Speaker 3: I've never seen this in reporting these types of and

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Speaker 3: we've reported plenty situations where there was a weekend party,

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Speaker 3: a five breaks out, A couple of guys gang up

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Speaker 3: on somebody. There are some bad tales to tell like

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Speaker 3: that this is if this is one of those, there

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Speaker 3: were probably ten different on their own fatal injuries to

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Speaker 3: Noah press Grove that you have had.

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Speaker 1: This was, Yeah, it was. And you know, before we

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Speaker 1: step off into the world of the injuries, you got

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Speaker 1: to talk about the scene. This is a rural, isolated

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Speaker 1: area and the one thing that sticks out to me

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Speaker 1: first off, the comment of the brother. I've worked cases

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Speaker 1: and it's well documented in all of the literature. You

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Speaker 1: can see this. When you have motor vehicle accidents, there

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Speaker 1: are people you know famously. Okay, let me start off here.

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Speaker 1: There's always there's this precept that is always put forward

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Speaker 1: that any time a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle,

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Speaker 1: they're automatically knocked out of their shoes. I've had so

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Speaker 1: many people tell me that over the years. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: always happen. You know. It's it's kind of like you know,

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Speaker 1: people talking about sue sides and the weapon being found

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Speaker 1: away from the body, like the body is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be holding the weapon every that doesn't happen every time,

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Speaker 1: just like people are not always knocked out of their shoes.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't always happen. But I can tell you what

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Speaker 1: does happen many times with clothing in particular? Is it

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Speaker 1: clothing if you think about the spinning of the tires

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Speaker 1: when a body is struck, a pedestrian is struck many times,

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Speaker 1: if the body is captured beneath the undercarriage of the car,

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Speaker 1: the clothing will be twisted and ripped off of the body. Dave,

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Speaker 1: it's not what the brother said. He said, Noah's nude

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Speaker 1: in a fetal position, and we'll get to the teeth

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Speaker 1: in a second. But his undershorts were found on the

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Speaker 1: road folded. Now, I don't know what had happened prior

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Speaker 1: to Noah's brother arriving at the scene. But if I

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Speaker 1: hear that somebody's underwear are folded, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to validate this. I don't know if the police

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Speaker 1: have remarked about this and explained this thing that the

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Speaker 1: brother was witnessing. How do undershorts wind up getting folded,

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Speaker 1: Particularly if you're thinking, well, maybe the got ripped off

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Speaker 1: in the accident, or whatever it is it happened. Because

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Speaker 1: whatever happened involved a tremendous amount of impact. I don't

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Speaker 1: I'll put it to this way. I've actually worked parachute

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Speaker 1: failures where the parachute failed to deploy that have fewer

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Speaker 1: fractures than this kid had. Wow, let that sink in

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Speaker 1: just for a second. I mean, and that's and the

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Speaker 1: reason is, it's pretty simple, is that when a body

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Speaker 1: is impacted, it's not generally impacted on multiple locations with

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Speaker 1: this amount of force to generate underlying fractures. Okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: just kind of plainly say that. So that leaves us with,

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Speaker 1: you know, a great, big, you know, kind of question

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Speaker 1: mark here, wondering what was the generator, how did this happen?

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Speaker 1: How did he wind up in this isolated area? And

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Speaker 1: was there something more that may have occurred at a

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Speaker 1: party that Noah attended, or did it occur as he

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Speaker 1: was leaving the party and wound up at this location?

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Speaker 1: Dave you ever heard that saying? It says, and it

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Speaker 1: varies from time to tom nothing good happens after eleven PM,

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Speaker 1: or nothing good happened after midnight. I know Noah was

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Speaker 1: at a party and kind of in and out. The

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Speaker 1: details are a little bit murky, a little, yeah, a

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Speaker 1: little and I was being common and so there was

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Speaker 1: a party, we know that, and it was a celebratory

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Speaker 1: event and there were many young people there. Can you

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Speaker 1: kind of run this top because Tom Tomming is everything

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Speaker 1: in this case, Can you kind of break this down

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Speaker 1: for us and give us an idea.

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Speaker 3: The murky part of it is that there was social

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Speaker 3: media being fed pictures and what have you of all

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Speaker 3: of the partying that was going on. A girl turned

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Speaker 3: twenty two, somebody that all grew up with. We hit

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Speaker 3: this in the first segment about it being close knit.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows one another. When everybody knows one another, you

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Speaker 3: have a tendency to have smoldering problems. You got an

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Speaker 3: issue with somebody and maybe you're not tight with them.

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Speaker 3: You're tight with these people, but now you're in together

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Speaker 3: and I just don't like that guy. You know, never

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Speaker 3: have hated him in third grade. You know he wiped

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Speaker 3: a book around me or something.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it stays with you in a town like

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Speaker 3: in an area like this. But this party was going on.

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Speaker 3: It was a it was well, first of all Labor

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Speaker 3: Day weekend. It was a twenty second birthday party for

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Speaker 3: a girl. It was an end of summer party for

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Speaker 3: the adults. Most of these kids were out of high school.

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Speaker 3: Noah had graduated a year previously, and he was looking

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Speaker 3: at a future that included possibly joined the military. That's

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Speaker 3: what he was considering. So they gathered together at this

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Speaker 3: party over a weekend. Now, my first thought when I

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Speaker 3: saw it was, this is one of those kind of

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Speaker 3: keggers that you go to on a Friday night and

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Speaker 3: you know, it kind of goes on all weekend.

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Speaker 2: You party, you listen to music.

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Speaker 3: The next day, you wake up whenever, and you know,

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Speaker 3: pretty much go right back to it. But that's not

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Speaker 3: what happened. It was a multi day event that took place.

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Speaker 3: But the party of yours left, or at least Noah

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Speaker 3: left and went home and cleaned himself up and then

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Speaker 3: went back the next night. During the course of this weekend,

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Speaker 3: Labor Day weekend event, Noah did have a disc well

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Speaker 3: back up. Noah and five other guys, six guys, rode

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Speaker 3: this big ATV. It's referred to as a ranger vehicle,

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Speaker 3: an ATV ranger vehicle. Noah and five other people are

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Speaker 3: on this ranger vehicle and they had an accident. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't bumping into a car, it wasn't bumping into a pole.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't hitting a curb. It was a rollover incident.

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Speaker 3: First of all, these ATV Ranger vehicles are not cheap.

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Speaker 3: They are adult toys, yes, and it was an adult

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Speaker 3: toy that got rolled over. The way they make it

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Speaker 3: seem is that Noah might have been the driver of

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Speaker 3: said vehicle. I don't know if that's the case, but

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Speaker 3: one thing we do know is that it was bad

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Speaker 3: enough that when he came up dead, that was the

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Speaker 3: first thing people thought, Hey, he got hurt in this

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Speaker 3: ATV accident.

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Speaker 2: He did get hurt, but.

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Speaker 3: Not bad enough that it required him to go to

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Speaker 3: the hospital or anything.

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Speaker 2: He was hurt, but he went back to the party.

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Speaker 1: You know, Dave, when you have events, and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: a rollover event, and these Ranger vehicles that come in

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Speaker 1: a couple of different configuration you have two seater or

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Speaker 1: four seater. They make this thing sound like it's like

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Speaker 1: a four seater. They've got roll bars on them. So

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Speaker 1: if the thing tips over and they're talking about rollover event,

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Speaker 1: just because there's a rollover doesn't mean that you're not

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Speaker 1: going to sustain injuries. And I have seen I have

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Speaker 1: seen people, Dave, that have been involved in motor vehicle

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Speaker 1: accidents where they get up and they are walking, talking,

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Speaker 1: fully oriented to time and space, and eight hours later

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Speaker 1: they die. And that's because something along the way was

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Speaker 1: clipped internally, generally some type of smaller vessel, and it's

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Speaker 1: a slow bla internally, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it's classic. What you begin to see is that suddenly

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Speaker 1: they become very sleepy, speech becomes slurred, they become disoriented,

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Speaker 1: and then the next thing you know, they're out cold

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Speaker 1: on the ground and they've got this kind of it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a death rattle they have because they're slipping

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Speaker 1: off into a coma because they're losing blood and the

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Speaker 1: oxygen level, the supply to the brain is dropping precipitously

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Speaker 1: and it's a horrible thing to witness. This does, in

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Speaker 1: fact happen, So we can't completely discard that possibility that

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Speaker 1: it's you know, we talk a lot about the totality

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Speaker 1: of injuries that an individual sustains, that it might not

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Speaker 1: be just singularly a one time event. It could be

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Speaker 1: a combination of events, and I'm sure that that's what

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Speaker 1: the pathologist was trying to consider in this, And I.

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Speaker 3: Think it's important to note that it was about enough

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Speaker 3: accident that it was brought up that he was not hurt,

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Speaker 3: because it's the assumption that if you say, well, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't hurt, he actually must have shown some injury, but

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Speaker 3: not bad enough to quit. You're nineteen, you're tenpee telling

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Speaker 3: bulletproof or crying out.

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Speaker 1: Lot oh oh my gosh. Yeah. And look if you

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Speaker 1: here's the thing, and this is kind of kind of cool. Scientifically,

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Speaker 1: if you sustain let's say you sustain an injury, and

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't think much of it at the time,

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Speaker 1: it hurts upon initial impact. What your body begins to do,

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Speaker 1: there's a trauma response in your body. So let's just

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Speaker 1: say you have a broken rib, you get popped in aside,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know that necessarily that this is some

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Speaker 1: kind of fatal or lethal event, but yet it hurts.

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Speaker 1: But it's something it's not something that you know is

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Speaker 1: going to get you down your knees, all right. But

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Speaker 1: what the trauma response in the body is is that,

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Speaker 1: first off, it's going to hemorrhage, and secondly, it's going

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Speaker 1: to swell. And we know for a fact that swelling

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Speaker 1: or the echomosis that surrounds that damaged tissue, Dave. It

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Speaker 1: takes a prescribed amount of time for that to happen.

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Speaker 1: So when you're examining somebody in the morgue and you're

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Speaker 1: looking for these injuries and trying to interpret them, one

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Speaker 1: of things you're going to look for are these little

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Speaker 1: breadcrumbs to say, Okay, you know what, this injury might

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Speaker 1: be older than these other ones that occurred at the

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Speaker 1: time of death. First off, if something occurred at the

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Speaker 1: time of death, it's not going to be presenting with

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Speaker 1: the amount of swelling. For instance, that something that had

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Speaker 1: happened hours before or a day before may be experiencing

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Speaker 1: it'll it'll look completely different. How do you make sense

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Speaker 1: of all of this when you have, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: old injuries that are now potentially being coupled with new

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Speaker 1: injuries that are discovered at autopsy. Maybe these things are

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Speaker 1: even recognized out on the scene. How is it that

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Speaker 1: you're able as a scientists to delineate between what is

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Speaker 1: older and what is newer. Sometimes those answers are not

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Speaker 1: as obvious as you might think that they are. I

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Speaker 1: don't normally do this sort of thing on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I got to tell you, I got to give

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Speaker 1: you a word of warning. What we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about right now is even by bodyback Sanders is kind

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Speaker 1: of graphic, but it has to be stated. And I'm

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Speaker 1: going to try in my own little way to interpret

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Speaker 1: and give you an idea of what might could generate

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Speaker 1: these types of injuries. And in many cases there are

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Speaker 1: multiple ways that these types of injuries can be generated.

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Speaker 3: But you get the police theory that he was thrown

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Speaker 3: out the back of a truck that was moving. Joe,

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Speaker 3: I want you guys to pay attention to these injuries

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Speaker 3: because you're not going to find if you were thrown

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Speaker 3: out of the back of a truck, You're going to

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Speaker 3: have road rash over your legs, you're gonna have arms,

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Speaker 3: You're going to have a lot of those type And

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that because I've been thrown out of the

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Speaker 3: back of the truck. I'm not by friends throwing me out.

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Speaker 3: We actually were being stupid and I fell, and I

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Speaker 3: know the injuries I had and we weren't. You know,

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Speaker 3: they were all over and my legs took the brunt

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Speaker 3: of it for the most part, these feet, ankles, what

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Speaker 3: have you. And he does not have those types of

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Speaker 3: injuries that actually match up to someone that was pitched

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Speaker 3: out of the back of a truck. I'm just saying

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Speaker 3: that because as we break these down, that's what I

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Speaker 3: went into it thinking happened, and I went how did

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Speaker 3: they even say that out loud? Take a look at

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Speaker 3: this list, Joe, that you're going and I want you

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Speaker 3: to explain just right off the bat, ten broken ribs.

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Speaker 1: With ten broken ribs is really something that and you

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Speaker 1: have to think about the orientation of these fractures. Are

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Speaker 1: they all married up? Like on the horizontal plane they

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Speaker 1: kind of match up as you go down the rib cage,

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Speaker 1: you know, like when you're going down the fifth rib

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Speaker 1: and the fifth rib, are they both concurrently fractured? And

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Speaker 1: does it approximate the same anatomical location. If that's happening,

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Speaker 1: then maybe you took a full on impact of a

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Speaker 1: motor vehicle striking you in your chest and you're on

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Speaker 1: your knees. Probability of that is very low because you

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Speaker 1: would have other associated things that you would find with that.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that you get with fractured ribs is

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Speaker 1: something that folks may or may not have heard of before.

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Speaker 1: It's called a flail chest. And what happens is is

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Speaker 1: that when your ribs are fractured, they're almost free floating

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Speaker 1: within your chest cavity, and you'll get multiple lung punctures,

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Speaker 1: and your lungs and your plural spaces, which are the

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Speaker 1: area around your lungs, begin to fill with blood. So

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Speaker 1: you have that going on in and of itself with

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Speaker 1: the ribs. And to get ten broken ribs, Dave, is

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Speaker 1: something that I don't know that I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you would get from a single event. You might get

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Speaker 1: that from a single event, but there's not going to

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Speaker 1: be this many other associated injuries. Just think about it.

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Speaker 1: Just think about it. If you were a kid and

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Speaker 1: you were in a tree house, okay, and you fell

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Speaker 1: out of the treehouse, you're going to impact on one

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Speaker 1: location on your body, maybe the back of your head,

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Speaker 1: maybe your shoulder, maybe your hip. Maybe you're going to

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Speaker 1: bend your knees under you, you know, Lord help you,

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Speaker 1: and land on both of your knees from a height.

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Speaker 1: But that's a single point of impact, Dave. We had

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Speaker 1: stuff here that at least implies that they're like multiple

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Speaker 1: impacts with a significant amount of force, because you're talking

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Speaker 1: about underlying fractures, Dave, And that's fine.

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Speaker 3: I said earlier that there are at least ten injuries that,

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Speaker 3: on their own, with nothing else, could have been fatal.

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Speaker 3: Go through the rest of this show. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: sit hearing shut up because I really, for the life.

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Speaker 1: Of it, I think I think the thing that.

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Speaker 2: Is is frustrated by what the police have said.

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Speaker 1: I it is frustrating. I think probably no way.

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Speaker 3: This didn't have that happened by jump falling out of

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Speaker 3: the back of a truck.

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Speaker 2: That did not happen.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe if you fell out of the back of

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Speaker 1: a truck multiple times, is what I think I'd like

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let me hop back up and try that again.

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Speaker 3: I didn't break my leg this time.

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Speaker 2: Come on, I know.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of you know what you're thinking about.

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Speaker 1: And I know that they're thinking about this. The me

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Speaker 1: is certainly thinking about this. Is it possible to generate

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Speaker 1: and listen again, I go back to this idea that

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Speaker 1: they've left the scene unclassified. You know, they have not

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Speaker 1: classified it. And that's that's a big you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a big piece to this because you know, the cops

401
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Speaker 1: can say basically whatever they want to say about what

402
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Speaker 1: they're seeing at the scene. How over, if the me

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Speaker 1: is not signing off on this thing with a particular classification,

404
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: that gives me an indication that they're still wanting more

405
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Speaker 1: information that they're scratching their heads over. I think probably

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Speaker 1: the thing that jumps out the most is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: they talked about this one central impact to the skull,

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Speaker 1: which Dave I got to tell you. It sounds like,

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Speaker 1: and it's a it's apparently a very very extensive injury,

410
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Speaker 1: but it sounds like a single impact that is almost

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Speaker 1: being described as a It seems to me is almost

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Speaker 1: like a depressed skull fracture, which means that it's not

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Speaker 1: the skull is not just simply fractured where you fracture

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Speaker 1: like if you have a Bowld egg and you kind

415
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Speaker 1: of crack it, you know, and it creates like this

416
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Speaker 1: kind of curvelinear, you know, manifestation, whereas we're talking about

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Speaker 1: if you take that egg and press it in, if

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Speaker 1: you've ever done that with a bold egg, you press

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Speaker 1: it in on the sides and it literally depresses and

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Speaker 1: you have it's almost like a that it creates and

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Speaker 1: it kind of spiderwhebs out. That kind of sounds like

422
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: what they're talking about that sounds like a depressed skull fracture.

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Speaker 1: How do you get that? Well, I guess you could

424
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Speaker 1: get it if you hit just right on the back

425
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Speaker 1: of your head on the road. But you know, I've

426
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Speaker 1: seen depressed skull fractures with baseball bats, hammers, pipes. I've

427
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Speaker 1: seen people with depressed gull fractures that have been pistol whipped.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying any of that happened, but just that

429
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Speaker 1: injury alone, that injury alone, just standing all by itself,

430
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Speaker 1: is a lethal injury. Because dude, when they opened up

431
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Speaker 1: his skull, there was a copious amount of blood that

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Speaker 1: poured out of a cranial vault.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean to you, Well.

434
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 1: It means that you've got multiple vessels within the skull

435
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: that are fractured. And if you like that one, I

436
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: got one that's even worse. And this is something I

437
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: have never mentioned on this podcas cast. If you will

438
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: put your fingers adjacent to your external ear canal on

439
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: both sides, If you put your your index fingers on

440
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: both sides, imagine drawing a line through the floor of

441
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: your skull. Right there. Noah has got what sounds like

442
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: a hinge fracture, and the hinge fracture literally involves going

443
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: all the way across the floor of the skull internally,

444
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: so that and these fractures are amazing. When you see them,

445
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: you get an idea of how much force is involved.

446
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: When you remove the brain after you've taken the skull

447
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: cap off where this other fracture would have been. When

448
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: you remove the brain, that's where all this blood is

449
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: coming from. You grab the top of the skull up

450
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: by the forehead where you've made your incision, and the

451
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: back of the skull. You can actually open the skull

452
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: along the floor of the skull and it looks like

453
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: a giant mouth like moving like this, and it goes

454
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: all the way across many times either anterior or right

455
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: across the foreme and magnum, which is where your spinal

456
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: cord dumps down into your spinal column. And I've seen

457
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: it involved in both locations, and it's like this gaping

458
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: maw that's in there, Dave, that created that you have

459
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: to have so much force in order to generate that

460
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: insult alone that it's it gives you pause. Okay, Hine.

461
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: Fractures don't occur all the time, and when you see them.

462
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, if you're standing there with the

463
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, they'll say, oh my god, we got a

464
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: hinge fracture. You know, it's like, okay, you get the

465
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: photography person over there. You're going to want to take

466
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: a picture of this. Not that you wouldn't otherwise, but

467
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: the pathologist is going to want like a tremendous number

468
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: of photographs taken of this because this is a significant finding.

469
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: You look at that in and of itself, all of

470
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: that head trauma is just absolutely amazing. Now he's got

471
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: brained damage in a sense that it's traumatically related. So

472
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: you'll have both in dwelling hemorrhage within the brain itself.

473
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: There's external damage to the brain. There'll be a lot

474
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: of blood, coagulated blood more than likely that is just

475
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: resting on the surface of the brain and certainly within

476
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: the dura sack, which if you think of the dura

477
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: sac that encompasses the brain, it's almost like a placenta.

478
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, that it actually if you take

479
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: the dura matter and laid alongside a placenta, it looks

480
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: a lot like that. It's kind of a protective back

481
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: that encases the brain itself. It's a wash and spinal fluid.

482
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: It kind of lubricates the brain because you wouldn't want

483
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: your brain just sitting inside your skull because the edges

484
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: are so rough in there, and so the dura acts

485
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: almost like a shock absorber for the brain, so you

486
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: would have a tremendous amount of blad contained in there.

487
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: There were four separate areas of trauma on the organ,

488
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: the brain itself, and not to mention this trauma, we

489
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: talk about cerebrospinal trauma. Okay, you hear doctors talk about

490
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: this a lot. So his Noah's head and brain were

491
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: not a skull and brain were not just impacted, but

492
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: also his spinal cord. You get down to the sea one,

493
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: you've got multiple cervical vertebra and the C one is

494
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: what classically we refer to as the atlas. If you

495
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: think about the Titan Atlas from Greek mythology, Atlas is

496
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: that gigantic being that is holding up the earth. And

497
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: the reason they calls C one the atlas is because

498
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: it is literally where the skull is resting, and it's

499
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: supporting from a skeletal standpoint, it's supporting the skull that

500
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: the C one dave in this case is actually displaced. Okay,

501
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: so it's been it's been knocked out for a lack

502
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: of a better term in Layman's. In Layman's terms, it

503
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: has been displaced. So it's kind of knocked knocked out

504
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: of alignment. As a matter of fact, some have described

505
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: this as a displacement that might be consistent with what

506
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: you would see in a judicial hanging, which leads to death.

507
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: So if you you know, when people talk about the

508
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: snapping of a neck when they fallen from a height,

509
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: the C one C two is what's impacted, and you

510
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: know when people are are in judicial hangings, that's what

511
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything self inflicted here.

512
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: The goal was that that would fall from such a

513
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: height that it would displace the C one and C two,

514
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: which are a critical level in the spot that if

515
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: those things are displaced in it's incompatible with life, okay,

516
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: because it impacts those basic those basic functions that are

517
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: required just for the autonomic nervous system to fire, you know,

518
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: like keeping your heart beating and doing you know, respirations

519
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: and all that other regulatory stuff. So that that has

520
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: been impacted for lack of a better term. Uh, we've

521
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: got What they found was a skin on the left

522
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: side of the scalp had been torn away, off of

523
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: the brain, off the forgive me, off of the bone,

524
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: So it means it's been ripped from the skull itself,

525
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: which again is kind of a friction related type of event.

526
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: You know, I guess you could say that somebody could

527
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: have traumatized him individually, but most of the time you

528
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: see something like that, that's the idea of the dynamic

529
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: of somebody perhaps rolling down the road.

530
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: Uh.

531
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's it goes from an abrasion to

532
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: a tearing laceration where it's kind of ripped through. And

533
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: as the police began to work the scene where Noah's found,

534
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't just teeth. You know that. We're out there

535
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: at the scene and we'll get to that in just

536
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: a second. But you know, Dave, they actually found a

537
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: clump of hair and skin away from the body in

538
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, which means that's probably hair

539
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: that is attached to a portion of the scalp that

540
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: was torn away. It was laying there. Again, that requires

541
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force. You've got the buttock. The

542
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: right buttock is traumatized. Here's another thing that you know,

543
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: we talked about teeth, both upper and lower. So you're

544
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: talking about your maxillary teeth, which are your upper teeth,

545
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: and your mangellary teeth, which are embedded in your jaw.

546
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Your lower teeth they're broken and they're in fragments, and

547
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: you've also got upper and lower teeth that are strewn

548
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: across the roadway. Dave. You know when when people talk

549
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: about having trauma to the mouth and they lose a tooth,

550
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: what do they say? They generally don't say I got

551
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: my teeth knocked out. They say I got a tooth

552
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: knocked out. Right, Brother, he's got teeth that are fractured

553
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: and missing, Okay, that are strewn about. Now we have

554
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: to think that again, this could be a high velocity

555
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: impact event where he may very well have fallen on

556
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: the ground. But you know, my thought was, well, it

557
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: obviously involves a head more than likely that depressed area

558
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: in the skull that generated the initial injury. But now

559
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: you've got teeth that are coming out of his head.

560
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: Like a curb stomp. That's well, yeah, I don't know.

561
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: But with fractured teeth. It's certainly I'd like to know.

562
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: I think one of the things I'd be very interested

563
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: in knowing, and I don't necessarily have this information. I

564
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: would like to know what kind of trauma existed relative

565
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: to the exterior of the mouth, like the lips and

566
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: the jaw.

567
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 3: Now, he did have a cut on his lip, and

568
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 3: he had a cut on his tongue. But can I

569
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: back up to something else?

570
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: Absolutely sure?

571
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 3: Okay, you mentioned the clump of hair that was found

572
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: in the middle of the highway. Well, there was a

573
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 3: clump of hair that was observed on the right buttock

574
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: without blood or tissue, and it was specific to that

575
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: without blood or tissue. Yes, And it was different than

576
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: the clump of hair that was found in the middle

577
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: of the road.

578
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: It was like this that he was tortured the hair

579
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: and it was put there for a reason.

580
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And who's to know what the dynamic

581
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: of this event is. He is nude, so how with

582
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: hair from the head presumably, And they don't specify what

583
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: the nature of the hair is. I mean, it might

584
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: be pubic hair, I guess, yeah, could be hair off

585
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: of his chest. I have no idea, but they do

586
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: make a point of that where they're talking about a

587
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: clump of hair. Clump of hair gives you an idea

588
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: that something has been pulled loose right, that it has

589
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: been taken out at the root perhaps or broken off

590
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: superior to the root ball, and that this has been

591
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: left behind. How does that hair? And I think a

592
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: question I would ask as a forensics guy, I'd want

593
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: to validate that hair. I'd want to know was it

594
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: Noah's hair? First off? Was it human hair? Was it

595
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: an animal? We're talking about it out in the wild

596
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: and there's animal hair on the roadway, you know, I'd

597
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: argue that, I'd say, well, how do we know the

598
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: provenance of the hair? You know, what's point of origin?

599
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: What species is it? Is it his? Does it? Does

600
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: it look like his hair color? Is he missing hair

601
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: that had been torn out?

602
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: Other than the possibility animal could have done it.

603
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's just it. And to this point,

604
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence that an animal has been

605
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: involved in this. I would just like to know the

606
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: origin of it. You know, all we can do in

607
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: forensics is document what we see there. It's hard to

608
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: really extrapolate further than that. But it is. It is

609
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: certainly an interesting finding. I don't know that I've ever

610
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: seen that kind of phraseology before that.

611
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: I haven't, and I read these things all the time,

612
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 3: and I have done stories where a hair was pulled out,

613
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: you know. It just sounds like the most painful thing.

614
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: Of course, on this list of things, I'm still beyond

615
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: the pale Joe. But the he's bleeding out of his ears. Yes,

616
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 3: got teeth thrown everywhere, And.

617
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: Bleeding out of the ears is consistent with the hinge fracture,

618
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: by the way, and you would probably also, yeah, and

619
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 1: you'd probably if looking closely, you could probably see cerebral

620
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: spinal fluid. You know how they when you're a kid

621
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: and if you take a first A class, they tell

622
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: you to look for a clear fluid coming from the ears.

623
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: That's that's what I'm talking about. So you'll get this

624
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: kind of co mingled with a hinge fracture. You'll see

625
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: kind of a commingled cerebral spinal fluid along with blood.

626
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: And it's got kind of a straw color to it.

627
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, pathologists will describe it as

628
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: having a straw like appearance, the color of straw and

629
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: it's tinged with blood, so that would come from from

630
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: that area. And again that goes to something has happened

631
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: that has compromised the structural integrity of the spinal column

632
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: with this displacement. And brother, it wasn't just as C one.

633
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: You know, I failed to mention that he's got a

634
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: fractured C two, which obviously is just beneath the C

635
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: one and C six. We're going down the column now.

636
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: C six and C seven were also fractured to varying degrees.

637
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: And there's multiple features on each one of these things.

638
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: You've got these horns that are on it, and there's

639
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: various anatomical features where it can be fractured. Again. You know,

640
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: vertebral bodies, just in and of themselves are one of

641
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 1: the most They are a very robust bone. And when

642
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: I say that they're thick, they they're therefore I mean,

643
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: think about what they're protecting, man, I mean, they're protecting

644
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: your spinal column. It's just like the skull, particularly on

645
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: the back, is very robust and thick. It's it is

646
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: that way for a very specific reason. So you've defeated

647
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: the impact has essentially defeated this naturally occurring structure within

648
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: the body that is meant to take a tremendous amount

649
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: of punishment. So how, you know, how does it account

650
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: for all of these other insults that he has all

651
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: over his body? And again, you know, look, I've got

652
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: a state full disclosure here. You know, he's got what

653
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: they're describing as grazes. There's abrasions, and you've got them

654
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: on multiple, multiple surfaces, which many times are associated with

655
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: rollover injuries. So if you've got scrapes and abrasions and

656
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: they're kind of wrap what they call wrap around injuries,

657
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: that's traditionally what you're looking for. So if the if

658
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: the vehicle is spinning, the body will be spinning, okay,

659
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: and you hit asphalt gravel, you're going to get this

660
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: horrible dynamic that where you'll have these upbraided and they'll

661
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: they'll be linear many times, and they'll cut a wide swath.

662
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: You know, I'll never forget. I had a cousin of

663
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: mine who was literally run over by a dump truck

664
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: when he was working on a levy in Louisiana. He

665
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: had the tire tracks across his uh. He's got this

666
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: great picture of tire tracks running across his chest. Uh,

667
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: you can actually his tandem wheels and you can see it.

668
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: And he survived, but he had all those and I

669
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: remember it from when I was a little kid. We

670
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: were amazed. I mean, we thank god that he survived.

671
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: He wound up becoming a preacher, and yeah, it does.

672
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: And you could see all that one. Yeah, you could

673
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: see all these abrasions, and that's it was. The tire

674
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: tread itself left an impression. But it's also braiding the

675
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: skin as it's rolling over. You take that and you

676
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: think about the dynamic of a body flying through the

677
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: air and spinning makes contact with a rough surface like

678
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: a roadway, You're going to get those same kind of rasions.

679
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 2: Dave, Well, Joe.

680
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 3: Now, there were other things that were on his body

681
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 3: that they were able to determine that. We're in various

682
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: stages of healing abrasions and scabs and what have you.

683
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: But with have you ever.

684
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 3: Seen have you ever seen anything like this where there

685
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: wasn't some type of mechanical failure with a car, a

686
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 3: boat being thrown from a building, of any number of things.

687
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 3: This is ostensibly a kid, a nineteen year old young

688
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 3: man leaves a party after an argument and is by

689
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: himself and ends up with all these injuries. Police are

690
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: saying they're not investigating it like it's a murder. There

691
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: By the way, for those who think there was a

692
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: hit and run involved to cause these types of injuries,

693
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: there was no, uh, there's nothing indicating there was a

694
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 3: hit and run. There were no parts of a car.

695
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: No skid marks, nothing, nothing. And look one other thing.

696
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't mean to jump on you here,

697
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: or not jump on you, but interrupt you. When you

698
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: think about a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle, there's

699
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 1: something that we refer to as bumper marks. So if

700
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about being struck in the thigh or the

701
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: lower legs, you'll have a definitive line, and think about

702
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: a bumper on a car, it makes sense. It's two

703
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: parallel lines like this running hors and the horizontal plane.

704
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: They're striking you if you're standing erect and you can

705
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: clearly see that many times, Dave, I've even seen grill

706
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: impressions on bodies where I saw I can't remember sink

707
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: it was a buick where I saw the buick the

708
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Buick emblem literally pressed into the skin. And so that's

709
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: a classic finding and grill marks too, classic finding of

710
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle. But you're you're

711
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: not hearing You're not hearing this, and so I think

712
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,479
Speaker 1: that's their default position, is falling out of the back

713
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: of a truck as opposed to being struck by a

714
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: vehicle that is going through the person out me through literally.

715
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: But you know where where you've got a static individual

716
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: stand in the middle of the road and they're struck

717
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: by vehicle, those injuries are going to look different. And

718
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: this is this is almost and here's here's another theory.

719
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: I really, I really wonder Dave all of these injuries

720
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: that he sustained. I'm wondering. I'm really wondering if he

721
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: if he had come out of a vehicle wound up

722
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: on the roadway. Was there another vehicle that passed by

723
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: that didn't see him in the middle the night and

724
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: then ran over him again that has happened. It's a

725
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: dark road. He was not found until the next morning.

726
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: There was a trucker that found him, you know, there

727
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: in the light of day. I think that all of

728
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: these things have to be factored in to the totality

729
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: of these circumstances. To try to understand it. And then

730
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: there's this specter that people keep talking about. I don't

731
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: know how to either validate it or invalidated. I'm in

732
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: the same position I think that the medical examiner is

733
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: in just talking. Of course, I don't have that level

734
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: of responsibility here, but that's the pieces of the puzzle

735
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: for the me to put this thing together so that

736
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: they can actually come up with a ruling where they're

737
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, this was an accident, this was

738
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: a homicide, or however they're going to come down on

739
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: this thing. I wonder what it will be that will

740
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: push them toward that decision. Because I got to tell you, Dave,

741
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: all this data, all this data, the timeline, the information

742
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: about an ATV accident that still remains a mystery, and

743
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: the combination of all of these injuries and their documentation

744
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: feels as though we still don't have any more answers

745
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: than when we first started. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

746
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks