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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: Our good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints Emily.

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Speaker 5: On yesterday's show, as you may or may not have seen,

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Speaker 5: Crystal and Sager Saul the immigration policy debate with an

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Speaker 5: hour long kind of fistfight. Today, maybe we can figure

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Speaker 5: out Israel Palestine.

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Speaker 6: It just might take a little bit longer than an hour.

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Speaker 6: We might have give this one ninety minutes.

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Speaker 4: All right, we'll let that one stretch.

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Speaker 3: I think that should do.

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Speaker 5: But so at the end of the show, we're actually

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Speaker 5: he's not listed here, but we're going to have Representative

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Speaker 5: Greg Kassar in the studio this morning.

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Speaker 4: He couldn't get in early enough. That's one of the

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Speaker 4: things about taping.

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Speaker 5: It can compacted schedule with members of Congress and other newsmakers.

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Speaker 4: You know, they can get here when they can get here.

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Speaker 5: So after his interview airs, we'll have it up on

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Speaker 5: YouTube and elsewhere, but it's not going to be in

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Speaker 5: the full show that goes out to premium subscribers, which

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Speaker 5: you can become one at breakingpoints dot com. Though I'm

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Speaker 5: not really selling it since it won't have our interview

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Speaker 5: with him. It will have our interview with my former

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Speaker 5: colleague at the Intercept, Lee Fong, who testified at Congress yesterday.

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Speaker 4: Yes, just kind of interesting and cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, life experience testified.

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Speaker 5: If you don't have to be there under subpoena, it's

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Speaker 5: probably fun.

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Speaker 6: Oh that's the best way to do it, really the

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Speaker 6: only way to do it.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, Lee.

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Speaker 6: Testified about his own reporting on censorship, and so I

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Speaker 6: think we're really eager to ask him some questions about

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Speaker 6: his experience in front of Congress, some of the questions

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Speaker 6: that he got and some of his own reporting, and

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Speaker 6: the other thing that we'd be remiss not to mention

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Speaker 6: that happened just last night because there's a lot of

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Speaker 6: breaking news. Republican leadership got rolled on two big votes

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Speaker 6: in the House last night. We're going to dive into

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Speaker 6: that in just a bit, but also WHI all that

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Speaker 6: was happening for the New York Times, quote, Nikki Haley

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Speaker 6: was out voted in Nevada's Republican presidential primary by quote

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Speaker 6: none of these candidates. So Nicki Haley lost to none

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Speaker 6: of the above option on the ballot just last night.

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Speaker 6: The New York Times calls it quote an embarrassment and

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Speaker 6: a contest in which she faced no direct competition. Now,

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Speaker 6: the primary doesn't award any delegates. Nevada has a weird

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Speaker 6: system going. So Trump is actually he said he wasn't

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Speaker 6: going to take part in it. He's doing the party

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Speaker 6: caucuses tomorrow in Nevada, where he's very popular. But we

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Speaker 6: had to mention that Nikki Haley lost to none of

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Speaker 6: the above.

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Speaker 5: To that point, there's a big push in the Michigan

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Speaker 5: Democratic primary, which is coming up in a couple of

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Speaker 5: weeks for people to vote uncommitted. So we'll see how

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Speaker 5: I think Biden's most serious opponent in Michigan will be uncommitted.

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Speaker 4: So, yes, the none of.

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Speaker 5: The above movement, which is from Brewster's Millions for the

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Speaker 5: people who remember that movie from the eighties, Guy burned

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Speaker 5: millions of dollars getting behind none of the above in

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Speaker 5: the New York mayoral race, and it became a populist

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Speaker 5: sensation because it really is a way for people to

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Speaker 5: express their actual frustration with the system.

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Speaker 6: And people were joking about Nikki Haley losing to none

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Speaker 6: of the above yesterday. It was like she's going to

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Speaker 6: win the primary obviously, But actually what happened was none

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Speaker 6: of the above prevailed in a nail binder.

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Speaker 5: Hate When that happened, just the worst, all right, So

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Speaker 5: we have news out of the out of the Middle East.

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Speaker 5: So early this morning, Reuter's broke the response from Hamas

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Speaker 5: to the earlier deal that had been proposed by Israel

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Speaker 5: through Cutter. Initial reports had come out that Hamas had

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Speaker 5: rejected the Israeli proposal for whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 5: sees fire humanitarian pause. In fact, they came back with

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Speaker 5: this proposal, which we can lay out in detail here

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Speaker 5: and talk about this. So they propose three forty five

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Speaker 5: day ceasefires, rolling in phases. So the first phase would

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Speaker 5: see all Israeli women hostages, men under nineteen, men and

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Speaker 5: boys under nineteen, the elderly and the sick would be

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Speaker 5: exchanged for Palestinian women and children held in Israeli jails.

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Speaker 5: During that time, Israeli troops would withdraw from Gaza and

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Speaker 5: the reconstruction of hospitals and some refugee camps would begin.

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Speaker 5: So then the second forty five day phase would see

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Speaker 5: the remaining Israeli hostages exchanged for some amount of Palestinian prisoners.

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Speaker 5: We don't know how many at this point that Hamas

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Speaker 5: is demanding. There have been some maximal demands from some

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Speaker 5: in Hamas saying every single person in Israeli in Israeli

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Speaker 5: captivity at this point is really detention. That is something

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Speaker 5: that obviously Israel is going to push back on and

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Speaker 5: non starter and can make and an offer of fewer

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Speaker 5: people they were keeping these folks you can have you

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Speaker 5: can have these folks back. The third and final forty

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Speaker 5: five day phase would see the exchange of the remains

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Speaker 5: of those who have died on both sides, and it

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Speaker 5: would then end with a permanent ceasefire. This is the deal,

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Speaker 5: and actually we'll roll. When President Biden addressed the nation

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Speaker 5: yesterday afternoon, he had already gone over this proposal, though

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Speaker 5: it had not lead to the press. Here's how Biden

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Speaker 5: responded to it.

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Speaker 7: There is some movement, and I don't want to. I

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Speaker 7: don't want to, I mean, choose my words. There's some movement,

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Speaker 7: there's been a response from the there's been a response

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Speaker 7: from the opposition. But yes, I'm sorry from Hamas, but

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Speaker 7: it seems to be a little over the top. We're

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Speaker 7: not sure where it is continuing negotiation right now.

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Speaker 6: He's the person that is allegedly negotiating to Steele Ryan

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Speaker 6: and he cannot get through a sentence in under what

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Speaker 6: thirty seconds, an easy sentence. He needs somebody in the audience.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if people caught that, if they're just

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Speaker 6: listening to yell out Hamas when he was looking for

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Speaker 6: the word Hamas, because he was bumbling and stumbling around

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Speaker 6: to find it.

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Speaker 5: Nobody would mistake me for like the most fluid speaker.

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Speaker 3: But come on, man, well it's a little different, right.

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Speaker 5: But I'm also not I'm also not president of the

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Speaker 5: United States. He did seem to forget the name of

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Speaker 5: amas Am. I am, I am I over reading that there.

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Speaker 6: No, it's it's genuinely painful to watch, and then you

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Speaker 6: know it's painful on his behalf. I mean, I think

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Speaker 6: that's the human reaction when you hear that or watch

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Speaker 6: that it's it's painful on his behalf. But then you

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Speaker 6: have to remind yourself, Oh, this is a president of

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Speaker 6: the United States, who is the person at the negotiating table,

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Speaker 6: the commander of the commander in chief of the military.

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Speaker 6: If I'm a member of the military and I'm watching that,

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Speaker 6: it's terrifying to me. If I'm a member of the

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Speaker 6: military's family, that's terrifying to me.

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Speaker 3: It's just painful all around.

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Speaker 4: Imagine how terrifying it must be for him too.

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Speaker 5: He's up at the podium about to describe the counteroffer

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Speaker 5: from Hamas and you can't find the word Hamas.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's a good point.

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Speaker 4: I would imagine his brain is just like going bananas

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Speaker 4: at that point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point.

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Speaker 4: Anything the opposition.

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Speaker 5: And then somebody's He's like, yeah, So before we get

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Speaker 5: to kgp's response to this, the underlying kind of inability

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Speaker 5: of the two sides to get to a deal so

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Speaker 5: far is pretty fundamental. So yesterday the Jerusalem Post had

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Speaker 5: a sentence in one of its articles that I wanted

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Speaker 5: to read because I think it really gets at this

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Speaker 5: at the divide. Here they wrote an issue between Hamas

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Speaker 5: and Israel is the terror group's insistence that a deal

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Speaker 5: must include an end to the gods of war, while

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Speaker 5: Israel has stood on its principal position that it must

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Speaker 5: be allowed to complete its military campaign to oust Hamas

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Speaker 5: from the enclave. So, on the one hand, you have

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Speaker 5: one party that wants to end the war.

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Speaker 4: You have the other party that wants to end the

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Speaker 4: other party.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you can imagine how that's going to be difficult

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Speaker 5: to get to a place at the end where you

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Speaker 5: reach a deal, like where's the common ground between those

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Speaker 5: two positions?

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Speaker 3: Right? And I mean it's interesting. The phrasing of the

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Speaker 3: sentence is interesting as you're pointing out.

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Speaker 6: And also, I mean it's tough because from the perspective

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Speaker 6: of people who might be reading the Jerusalem Post, they

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Speaker 6: would look back and say, well, there were people who

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Speaker 6: were calling for a ceasefire on October eighth, October ninth,

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Speaker 6: October tenth, or immediately saying preemptively, in fact, saying like

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Speaker 6: October eighth, ceasefire. This is going to be bloody and devastating,

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Speaker 6: and so before it even starts, cease fire. And so

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Speaker 6: I understand that position that you know, there had to

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Speaker 6: be some type of response, but it's getting harder and

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Speaker 6: harder to your point, to say that the response has

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Speaker 6: or to persuade the public that the ongoing response is

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Speaker 6: within the realm of proportionality, years within the realm of reasonableness.

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Speaker 3: When you have so many people.

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Speaker 6: Dead, and you have Hamas going back into northern Gaza,

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Speaker 6: you have the military mission of quote eradicating Hamas looking

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Speaker 6: less and less likely every single day, and when you

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Speaker 6: still have one hundred and thirty six hostages, or report

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Speaker 6: yesterday from the Israeli governments that they had notified more

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Speaker 6: than thirty family members of the remaining one hundred and

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Speaker 6: thirty six hostages that their Level one passed away. They

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Speaker 6: said most of those were likely on October seventh. It's

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Speaker 6: hard to say, but this is making it very difficult,

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Speaker 6: to your point, it makes Israel's position increasingly untenable.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And from the Hamas side, you've had senior Hamas

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Speaker 5: officials who have given interviews saying we're only recognizing the

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Speaker 5: state of Israel as a ruse, as a temporary ruse,

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Speaker 5: and ultimately we think the entire land is occupied and

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Speaker 5: we'd like to take it back. So in that sense,

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Speaker 5: both parties and the negotiation you want the elimination of

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Speaker 5: the other party. What they actually want matters less than

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Speaker 5: what they can actually do, and Hamas doesn't really have

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Speaker 5: the capacity to eliminate a nuclear.

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Speaker 4: Power, right.

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Speaker 3: They're both in the one party state train to your.

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Speaker 5: Point, Yes, yeah, and elements of them both pretend that

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Speaker 5: they support a two state solution, right, but not the

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Speaker 5: necessarily the leading elements at this point.

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Speaker 4: But it does put the It does put Hamas.

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Speaker 5: In this weird position of being the one for a

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Speaker 5: ceasefire and Israel being the one, you know, for continuing

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Speaker 5: the war. And it puts the United States in the

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Speaker 5: awkward position of saying, no, we want the war to continue.

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Speaker 5: And so here's how Karine Jean Pierre at the White

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Speaker 5: House yesterday kind of squared that circle. Separate topic on

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Speaker 5: the hostage negotiations.

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Speaker 3: You're a team who's been covering this old in Middle

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Speaker 3: least says that Hamas is still insisting on a permanent

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Speaker 3: cease hire.

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Speaker 6: Is it still this administration's position that it opposes a permanency.

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Speaker 8: What we have been working towards, and you've heard us

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Speaker 8: say over and over again, we want to see a

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Speaker 8: humanitarian pause. We want to make sure that we get

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Speaker 8: these American hostages home and also hostage is more broadly

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Speaker 8: obviously home to their families, and we want to make

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Speaker 8: sure that we get that critical aid, the critical aid

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Speaker 8: that Palestinians need into Gaza. It is important to get

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Speaker 8: that aid, whether it's medical, whether it's food, we have

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Speaker 8: to get that in and so we believe a humanitarian

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Speaker 8: pause gets us there. You know, there is As I

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Speaker 8: stated at the top, Hamas has responded to the framework

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Speaker 8: of a hostage deal, and so we're going to review

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Speaker 8: it and I'm going to be really really careful. I'm

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Speaker 8: not going to dive into or telegraph information about their

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Speaker 8: response from here, but we've been very clear that we

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Speaker 8: believe that we need to get to another humanitarian pause

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Speaker 8: because that humanitarian aid needs to get in and also plans.

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Speaker 9: It is the administration's position that he permanents he is fighting.

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Speaker 8: You have been very clear, We've been very clear from

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Speaker 8: where we stand on the ceasfire.

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Speaker 9: That has not changed.

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Speaker 5: So the US is doing a kind of dangerous dance

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Speaker 5: here where I don't know if you've seen some of

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Speaker 5: this reporting, but effectively, what the US has been telegraphing

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Speaker 5: is that through Katar Qatar, then over to Maas saying, Okay,

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Speaker 5: this is what we're saying publicly that we want these

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Speaker 5: humanitarian pauses, our official positions that were not for a

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Speaker 5: permanent ceasefire. But if you can get to an extended

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Speaker 5: humanitarian pause ninety days one hundred and thirty five days,

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Speaker 5: as in this OS proposal, then the US will not

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Speaker 5: allow Israel to relaunch the war. In other words, cool

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Speaker 5: it down and it will stay cooled down. Amas is

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Speaker 5: kind of pushed back with how can we trust that, Like,

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Speaker 5: nothing that you've said, nothing that the US has said

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Speaker 5: to Israel so far has led to changes in Israeli behavior,

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Speaker 5: So why would this What do you make of that

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Speaker 5: kind of this yawning gap between the public and private

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Speaker 5: positions of the Biden administration.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think it's for one of the difficult

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Speaker 6: things in negotiating here is that it's immensely difficult for

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Speaker 6: either side to trust that the other side will execute

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Speaker 6: on what they're promising to execute on, especially with the

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Speaker 6: volatile context of the entire Middle East right now, where something.

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Speaker 3: Can change in an instant.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's very easy to imagine another situation like

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Speaker 6: what happened just a couple of weeks ago to the

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Speaker 6: United States in Jordan, where three reservists were killed, completely

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Speaker 6: changing the dynamics of what was negotiated and agreed on.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what do you.

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Speaker 6: Make of the idea that if there is an extended pause,

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Speaker 6: that there will be an ability to sort of prevent

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Speaker 6: the war from relaunching.

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Speaker 5: It's interesting, It's it's plausible, and it's plausible in a

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Speaker 5: sense that you can you can imagine that once the

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Speaker 5: momentum goes towards reconstruction and aid coming back in that

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Speaker 5: you can imagine how that can take hold and last.

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Speaker 5: On the other hand, the context here is that Netnyah,

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Speaker 5: who is extraordinarily unpopular, he knows that if he faces

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Speaker 5: a snap election, he's probably going to get ousted, and

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Speaker 5: he's facing corruption charges, which means that he if he

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Speaker 5: gets ousted, uh, those those charges slap back in and

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Speaker 5: he might wind up actually getting convicted of something. And

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Speaker 5: so net Yaho is is the ultimate political survivor. And

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Speaker 5: he also is no fan of Biden. So if we're

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Speaker 5: talking four months from now, you know we're in the summer,

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Speaker 5: and so it is. You can also see the domestic

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Speaker 5: US politics where if Yahu he started the war in

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Speaker 5: the summer or fall. That's probably pretty damaging for Biden

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Speaker 5: because because he will have looked as though he failed

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Speaker 5: in his diplomatic effort to get this war to an end.

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Speaker 5: And then then Yahoo might think, well, now I've got

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Speaker 5: Trump and I can roll the dice with Trump coming

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Speaker 5: in a couple of months, and so that you know,

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Speaker 5: Trump Trump is a classic live to fight another day politician,

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Speaker 5: like just you know, people are always looking for his

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Speaker 5: long term strategy when he doesn't really usually have one.

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Speaker 5: It's just like just like his business strategy, just trying

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Speaker 5: to stay you know, one day ahead of the creditors,

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Speaker 5: and in his political strategy is the same, sting one

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Speaker 5: day ahead of all of his opponents. Then Yahoo the same.

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Speaker 5: So that's that's why you can imagine a world where

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Speaker 5: it's solidifies. But you can also see how n Yahoo

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Speaker 5: would have the kind of incentives to make sure that

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Speaker 5: it didn't.

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Speaker 6: And again why there's no trust on either side of

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Speaker 6: that negotiation at this point.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, and Hamas has criticized Israel for releasing Israeli

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Speaker 5: detainees through the previous deal and then days later rating

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Speaker 5: their houses in the West Bank and just bringing them

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Speaker 5: right back in, Like what, hey, we kept up our

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Speaker 5: part of the bargain. We released them. We didn't say

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Speaker 5: we wouldn't pick them up, you know, three days later.

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Speaker 5: So you had mentioned that if we could jump to

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Speaker 5: the final element of the block that you had just mentioned.

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Speaker 5: This is a report from Ken Klippenstein over at the intercept.

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Speaker 4: You had mentioned the attack on the Jordanian base.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to talk about this briefly because he said

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Speaker 5: the headline here American base in Jordan, where drone killed

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Speaker 5: through three US troops dogged by inadequate air defenses. I

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Speaker 5: encourage people to read the whole story because, based on

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Speaker 5: sources who served at this base, he really lays out

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Speaker 5: how vulnerable this base was to this drone attack. The

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Speaker 5: military explanation was that there was some confusion that they

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Speaker 5: had a drone out there and they thought that this

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Speaker 5: drone that was coming back to the base was an

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Speaker 5: American drone. It actually turned out to be an Iraqi

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Speaker 5: militia drone and three reservists ended up getting killed. That

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Speaker 5: is the second question I'd love to have answered. By

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Speaker 5: the way, why are reservists overseas at this base? Like

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Speaker 5: if you're like if we're not at actual war. People

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Speaker 5: who are in the reserves should be at home, like

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Speaker 5: they should not be called They shouldn't be called up.

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Speaker 4: We should we should have enough.

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Speaker 5: Troops with a trillion dollar budget that we don't need

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Speaker 5: to call up reservists and send them to Jordan. But

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Speaker 5: then the other the other point, as you read through

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Speaker 5: his story, you're like, we're putting all these American troops

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Speaker 5: in harm's way, yes, and not giving them adequate protection. Yes,

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Speaker 5: And spending billions of dollars on protecting the Israeli government,

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Speaker 5: which then antagonizes and produces the conflict that then leads

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Speaker 5: to our own troops getting killed without adequate protection.

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Speaker 6: And remember, Biden didn't know where This is another thing

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Speaker 6: that I'm surprised hasn't gone into play when people are

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Speaker 6: talking about what happened to Jordan, is Biden didn't know

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Speaker 6: where his Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin was for how long?

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean, in all serious.

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Speaker 5: We finally apologize for was like, well, wouldn't everybody else

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Speaker 5: be fired for this?

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Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, I.

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Speaker 6: Mean you can see again, you can see why I

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Speaker 6: have two hot wars, one of which spiraled into three

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Speaker 6: American deaths. I'm sure there are plenty. I don't know

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Speaker 6: the exact number of remaining hostages that are American, but

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Speaker 6: you can't. I mean, it's just insane the level of

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Speaker 6: incompetence every single day coming out of the Biden administration.

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Speaker 6: And this if we put a three up on the screen.

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Speaker 6: This was some news yesterday. I just mentioned this, but

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Speaker 6: Israel confirmed the death of thirty one hostages as Homos

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Speaker 6: was responding to those proposals. That was a confidential internal

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Speaker 6: Israeli reviewed that the New York Times got its hands on.

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Speaker 6: The Times adds the fate of a further twenty people

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Speaker 6: is also in question, amid unconfirmed intelligence that they may

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Speaker 6: also have died during their captivity. So that would bring

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Speaker 6: the number of hostages somewhere around one hundred living hostages.

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Speaker 6: And you know, lots of questions about who died and

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Speaker 6: when will remain for Netan Yahoo for a very very

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Speaker 6: long time.

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Speaker 5: Ran yes, and also right, you're probably correct in reading

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Speaker 5: the intelligence there that most of these probably died on

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Speaker 5: October seventh, and we're still and their remains were taken.

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Speaker 4: Back to gods.

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Speaker 5: Also gads, as we've all seen from news reports, has

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Speaker 5: been an extraordinarily dangerous place for everybody. And the hostages

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Speaker 5: who have been released have told Israeli media that the

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Speaker 5: thing that they were most afraid of was the twenty

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Speaker 5: four to seven bombing campaign and that they were nervous

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Speaker 5: that they were going to die under rubble.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they both.

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Speaker 6: Felt really fired, right, They felt like the idea didn't

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Speaker 6: know where they were was a quote that a couple

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Speaker 6: of them gave after their being after they were released.

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Speaker 5: Or hoping they didn't know where they were, because if

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Speaker 5: they were, they knew where they were and were still

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Speaker 5: bombing that area, then that's I think that's even harder

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Speaker 5: to absorb that your government would be would willingly do

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Speaker 5: that well.

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Speaker 6: And again, I think to the point you were making earlier,

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Speaker 6: it's hard for Israel to maintain, especially when obviously the

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Speaker 6: country is focused on the return of the hostages. It's

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Speaker 6: harder for Israel to maintain its position that it must

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Speaker 6: complete the military operation when hostages have died frankly during

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Speaker 6: the military operation, when there been hostages remaining for so

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Speaker 6: long during the military operation, and when you have returned

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Speaker 6: to hostages saying that they didn't have you know, they

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Speaker 6: didn't feel confident the military operation was not going to

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Speaker 6: result in their deaths.

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Speaker 3: That's a really difficult position.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and the war itself continues to be extraordinarily dangerous

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Speaker 5: also for IDF soldiers. The IDF has not confirmed this,

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Speaker 5: but according to the Hamas telegram channel Alkasamber Gads telegram

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Speaker 5: channel that posted this morning, seven IDF soldiers were killed

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Speaker 5: quote in the vicinity of Al Hawas near the highat

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Speaker 5: school west of Conunis.

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Speaker 4: This is a this is.

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Speaker 5: A telegram channel that is it's kind of the official

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Speaker 5: channel that broadcasts you know, Hamas military news and often

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Speaker 5: is is confirmed later.

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Speaker 4: By by either I d F or media reports.

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Speaker 5: So it's a it's a fairly reliable whether or not

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Speaker 5: this is this is true. We'll find out in the

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Speaker 5: next hours or or maybe days. But seven I d

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Speaker 5: F soldiers killed in a single confrontation would be you know,

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Speaker 5: one of one of the highest casually rates in a

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Speaker 5: in uh, you know, in a day between you know,

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Speaker 5: between uh you know, Hamas and and the I d F.

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Speaker 5: And it comes just as you know, these negotiations are

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Speaker 5: getting to you know, potentially a breakthrough place.

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Speaker 4: And so it's just a.

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Speaker 5: Reminder of how the world and everyone just needs this

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Speaker 5: war to end. Meantime, we can put up this second

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Speaker 5: to last element here. You continue to have and this

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Speaker 5: has been going on for weeks now, but you you

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Speaker 5: continue to have Israeli civilians UH protesting the UH the

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Speaker 5: entry and we've got this UH got this footage up here,

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Speaker 5: the entry of AID into gas And so what what

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Speaker 5: what you're looking at here? And if you're watching, if

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Speaker 5: you're listening on the podcast, what we're showing here UH

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Speaker 5: is are just regular Israeli civilians who have gotten into

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Speaker 5: a heavily militarized area like this is not this is

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Speaker 5: not somewhere that I think civilians could sneak into without

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Speaker 5: some sort of at least kind of acquiescence from the

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Speaker 5: Israeli military.

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Speaker 10: Uh.

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Speaker 4: And and they're swarming AID trucks.

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Speaker 5: And you've had a lot of ideaf sympathetic Twitter accounts

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Speaker 5: and others who have celebrated these civilian actions UH in

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Speaker 5: in reducing the number of AID trucks that have been

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Speaker 5: getting into Gaza down sometimes into the single or double digits.

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Speaker 5: And if we can put up this this final element.

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Speaker 5: Vidaan Patel earlier this week that on Monday, the State

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Speaker 5: Department spokesperson he was talking about, and it was it

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Speaker 5: was kind of a boast. It was what the United

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Speaker 5: States has done so far in order to get relief

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Speaker 5: into Gaza. He said that, you know, on February fourth,

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Speaker 5: two hundred and seven relief trucks entered Gaza in a

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Speaker 5: single day.

441
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 4: And he said, since October twenty first, I have a

442
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 4: typo in there. I said, twenty fifth.

443
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 5: Since October twenty first, ten five hundred trucks had made

444
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 5: it in. So we're talking about November, December, January plus there.

445
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 5: Aid groups have said you need about thousand trucks a

446
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 5: day to get in just to meet the very basic

447
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 5: needs of the Gaza population. That would be close to

448
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 5: one hundred thousand trucks. People can do the math if

449
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 5: they want. There that only ten thousand have gotten in

450
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 5: explains why you have the dysentery, diuretic diseases that are

451
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 5: spreading among children, the malnutrition and the starvation and the

452
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 5: famine that we're seeing because ten percent of the of

453
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 5: the minimum.

454
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 4: Is going to lead to just absolutely catastrophic.

455
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 6: Conditions, you know, and this is one of the toughest

456
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 6: parts of the entire scenario, and that people in Israel.

457
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 6: If people are wondering why you have the West Bank

458
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 6: scenes out of the West Bank that look like that.

459
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 6: We've all heard the complaints from Israel that the AID

460
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 6: is sometimes hoarded by Hamas, it's sometimes misused by Hamas,

461
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 6: and you know, found sacks and stuff, un rush sacks

462
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 6: and tunnels and all of that, which there's obviously truth

463
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 6: that Hamas has you know, not been entirely honest about

464
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 6: where all the AID.

465
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 4: Is, and there's no doubt about that, and so right.

466
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 6: And so's it leads to this type of situation. And

467
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 6: at the same time, you simply cannot allow, cannot allow

468
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 6: tens of thousands of people, millions of people actually to

469
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 6: live in those conditions, right.

470
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 5: Because we're talking you know, Hamas is somewhere at this

471
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 5: point between ten and thirty thousand fighters.

472
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 4: There's two million people in Gaza.

473
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 5: So the claim that ten to twenty thousand people could

474
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 5: even hoard enough that it would lead to the starvation

475
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 5: of two million people just doesn't pass the smell test,

476
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 5: like that just simply wouldn't even be possible.

477
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 6: But for Israel, the United States, and especially the Israeli

478
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 6: government when it's dealing with the United States and these

479
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 6: questions about a to the point you're raising about the

480
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 6: political calculations of nen Yahoo, I mean it's very difficult.

481
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 6: I mean, he's, you know, as I think poorly as

482
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 6: Nya who has handled all of this. At least we

483
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 6: can say he wasn't in an easy position or a

484
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 6: good position.

485
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: Part of that from his own fault.

486
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 6: But the political tightrope that anyone who or anyone would

487
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 6: have to walk here is not easy for reasons like that,

488
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 6: for reasons related to that. It's just a to execute

489
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 6: humane strategies on either side of this in the best

490
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 6: of circumstances, if people wanted to do that would not

491
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 6: be easy.

492
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 5: Right, because the propaganda has demonized every single Palestinian as

493
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 5: either a terrorist or potential terrorists. So then you're like, well,

494
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 5: and also we're going to give them humanitarian aid, And

495
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 5: so the publics went, I thought they were all terrorists.

496
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 5: Why how can we possibly how can you give aid?

497
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 5: Because and that's what you'll hear when they interview these

498
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 5: civilians at the border.

499
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: How can you give aid to these terrorists?

500
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 6: And why would you give any aid that's going into

501
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 6: the hands of enemies. It's just a it's a strange thing.

502
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 5: Which you could actually flip that, you know, Israel saying

503
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 5: we're not going to release these terrorists that we've captured

504
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 5: that are our detainees to end the war. It was like, well,

505
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 5: wait a minute, you said all two million people in

506
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 5: Gaza are terrorists, So if they're all terrorists, what are

507
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 5: these couple thousand matters to you?

508
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 6: Well, and here's another We have another image of eight trucks.

509
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 6: This is I think this one's a five. This is

510
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 6: from Tom White, so he tweeted this morning a food

511
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 6: convoy waiting to move into northern Gaza was hit by

512
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 6: Israeli naval gunfire.

513
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: Thankfully no one was injured.

514
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 6: But if you're looking, you corrector of bunro There, that's

515
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 6: the director vun Roar, So you can see the damage

516
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 6: that was done to the truck if you're if you're listening,

517
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 6: this is obviously just an eight truck with basically almost

518
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 6: a whole halfway in the middle of it.

519
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it is not the first food convoy hit

520
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 5: by Israeli gunfire. H and as we started this block

521
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 5: talking about the deal that you know that the counter

522
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 5: response that that Hamas is offered, which includes allowing in

523
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 5: more humanitarian aid it's always jarring to see that as

524
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 5: part of these negotiations, because it is not acceptable, according

525
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 5: to international law or basic morality or ethics, to have,

526
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: you know, to negotiate over humanitarian aid in order to

527
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 5: extract military concessions.

528
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 4: Like you're not it's not even supposed to be in the.

529
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 5: Same conversation, right, right that, Okay, we'll agree to this

530
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 5: if you will agree to reduce the level of famine.

531
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 5: Like that's just not that's like beyond what's supposed to

532
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 5: be allowable.

533
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 6: But here we are anyway, Yeah, here we are anyway

534
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 6: heading into February, heading closer and coast of February seventh,

535
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 6: which puts us close to closer to another anniversary of

536
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 6: the attacks, and all of the anytime you hit the

537
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 6: anniversary attacks, you look back, you look at the death count,

538
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 6: and then you look at Chris and I were talking

539
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 6: about this last week, the Hamas returning to northern Gaza,

540
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 6: and you just think, my god, I mean, this is right,

541
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 6: it's just a horror show.

542
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: Let's move on to Trump here.

543
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 6: In the United States, the President, it was determined yesterday,

544
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 6: though he may appeal, is not im He doesn't have

545
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 6: total immunity.

546
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure he did appeal that they're going to.

547
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: Hear it tomorrow.

548
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: The appeal is totally expected.

549
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 6: In fact, we have a neat little chart showing how

550
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 6: the appeal can affect the timing of this case.

551
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: But yes, so here's the charter right here.

552
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 6: So if Donald Trump appeals the decision yesterday which rejects

553
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 6: his claim that he's immune to these charges that he

554
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 6: subverted the twenty twenty election, he interfered with a twenty

555
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 6: twenty election, he is going to go to trial on

556
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 6: this criminal indictment that accuses him of trying to overturn

557
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 6: the election results.

558
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: So if you're looking at that chart.

559
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 6: You see pauses video, Yeah, you have to pause the video.

560
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 6: There are all of these different timeline scenarios. And remember,

561
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 6: of course that nobody needs to be reminded this is

562
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 6: all playing out in the middle of a presidential election cycle,

563
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 6: one in which reports this morning one from The Guardian

564
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 6: says that the RNC wants Nicky Haley to drop out

565
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 6: so they can completely consolidate behind Donald trum So the

566
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 6: leading candidate for one of the major parties, one of

567
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 6: the two major parties, is now caught up in this

568
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: crazy timeline where you can end up going to the

569
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 6: Supreme Court oral argument in the middle of March. You

570
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 6: could just have a grant of a stay without any

571
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 6: limits that could happen next week. You could have a

572
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 6: grant of a stay with a ten day limit that

573
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 6: could happen next week, and or you could treat this

574
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 6: stay as a cert petition that could also happen next week,

575
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 6: with oral arguments again happening in mid March. So all

576
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 6: of this is dependent on what happens within the next week.

577
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 6: And then we can go down to the next element.

578
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 6: As the timeline is so long it didn't fit on

579
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 6: one screen, that would put a Scotus decision somewhere in

580
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 6: early April, with a trial beginning in July and concluding

581
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 6: on October fifth. So all of these different scenarios, with

582
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 6: the exception of one that ends in a petition for

583
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 6: cert on May twelfth, end in the fall. So you

584
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 6: would have a Scotis decision around April, a trial beginning

585
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 6: in July, and then the trial ending in mid October,

586
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 6: and then a trial beginning in June and concluding in September.

587
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 6: So in three of the four scenarios you have a

588
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 6: trial concluding based on the calendar in early to mid October,

589
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 6: mid to late October, literally a week before the election

590
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 6: possibly if it ends on October thirtieth in that time range,

591
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 6: or in early September, right around Labor Day. So either way,

592
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 6: the fall of a presidential election, you're ryan.

593
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 5: And tomorrow the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments on

594
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 5: a related question of whether or not the fourteenth Amendment,

595
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 5: which says insurrectionists can't run for president, applies to Trump,

596
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 5: and so the Court, the Supreme Court will be hearing that.

597
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 6: And this is before Yeah, we can put that up

598
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 6: on the screen because the two things, when you hear

599
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 6: them together, are completely.

600
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 4: Confusing different cases.

601
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, and Scots Blood causes the biggest election case since

602
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 6: it's ruling the Supreme Court's election ruling in bushby Gore.

603
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 6: And again it's whether or not he can basically be

604
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 6: taken off the ballot because of his role on January sixth,

605
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 6: and scottis Blog says, although the question comes to the

606
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 6: Court in a case from Colorado, the impact of the

607
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 6: Court's ruling could be much more far reaching than they list.

608
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 6: That main Secretary of State ruled in December that Trump

609
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 6: should be taken off the primary about there, and that

610
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 6: challenges to Trump's eligibility are actually currently pending in eleven

611
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 6: under eleven other states. So if we go back for

612
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 6: a moment to the ruling in this other January six case,

613
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 6: the charts of the Trump cases that some of the

614
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 6: news outlets have done, by the way, are insane, just

615
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 6: to the tangle of different legal scenarios and all of

616
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 6: the different things.

617
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: It's just like absolutely crazy.

618
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 6: Mike Johnson have speaker Mike Johnson, who had a very

619
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 6: bad day yeshual it was caught by reporters walking through

620
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 6: the Capitol complex and asked about the ruling. And here's

621
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 6: what Mike Johnson had to say.

622
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 11: Federal PUOs Court today just rule that President Trump does

623
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 11: not have immunity. Do you group, do you think that

624
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 11: he deserves total immunity from anything that he's done in office?

625
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 4: I haven't seen that development. Was that the storm?

626
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just ruled this morning.

627
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: I believe that they've been after President Trump for partisan

628
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: political purposes.

629
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 4: I think that's obvious and we call it law there

630
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 4: and I think there's.

631
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 10: No other way to describe.

632
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 6: That's what Mike Johnson had to say. Now, the ruling

633
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 6: itself was fifty seven pages long, it was unanimous. It

634
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 6: was a three judge ruling in the US Court of

635
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 6: Appeals for the DC Circuit, and, as The New York

636
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: Times says, it was unlikely to be the final word

637
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 6: on his claims of executive immunity. Now, the ruling itself

638
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 6: is actually really interesting. Did you get a chance to

639
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 6: read any of it right now?

640
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: Not the whole thing?

641
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: Now, it's so long.

642
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 5: But it was like, yes, I was like, this seems

643
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 5: like a lot of words to say what seems pretty simple.

644
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: Yes.

645
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 6: And so the Trump response was, if immunity is not

646
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 6: granted to a president, every future president who leaves office

647
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 6: will be immediately indicted by the opposing party. Without complete immunity,

648
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 6: a president of the United States would not be able

649
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 6: to properly function.

650
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: And that's an interesting argument.

651
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 6: It's a little it's it's an interesting argument because when

652
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 6: you're reading this fifty seven page ruling, it's taking very

653
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 6: seriously all of the Trump team's claims of immunity. And

654
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 6: that's a particularly interesting one because it speaks to the

655
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 6: nature of the system, that the system is getting a

656
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 6: stress test in the Trump era of kind of hyper partisanship.

657
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 3: So what are the limits. You know you have Ford

658
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: pardoning Nixon. Would Nixon have had to go through this? What?

659
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 6: We don't know because Ford pardon Nixon in any idea

660
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 6: of a pardon is basically laughable in this political context,

661
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 6: whether it was Hillary Clinton or any well, okay, so,

662
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 6: but from the other party, I guess Ford Nixon is

663
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 6: not the other party. But one of the key lines

664
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 6: in the ruling I thought was quote for the purpose

665
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 6: of this criminal case, former President Trump has become citizen

666
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 6: Trump with all of the defenses of any other criminal defendant,

667
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 6: but any executive immunity that may have protected him while

668
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 6: he served as president no longer protects against this prosecution.

669
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 6: At bottom, former president trump stance would collapse our system

670
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 6: of separated powers by placing the president beyond the reach

671
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 6: of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would

672
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 6: mean that, as to the president, the Congress could not legislate,

673
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 6: the executive could not prosecute, and the judiciary could not review.

674
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 6: We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places

675
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 6: its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter.

676
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 6: They also addressed one of the Trump team's arguments, which

677
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 6: was about double jeopardy. They wrote, even if we assume

678
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 6: that an impeachment trial is criminal under the double jeopardy clause,

679
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 6: the crimes alleged in the indictment differ from the offense

680
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 6: for which President Trump was impeached because they're talking about

681
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 6: the impeachment judgment clause, which in the ruling quote states

682
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 6: that the party convicted shall nevertheless be subject to criminal prosecution.

683
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 6: That text says nothing about non convicted officials. Former President

684
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 6: Trump's reading rests on a logical fallacy. Stating that if

685
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 6: the president is convicted, he can be prosecuted does not

686
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 6: necessarily mean that the president is not convicted he cannot

687
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 6: be prosecuted. And as they're going through these fifty seven pages,

688
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 6: these judges who, by the way, you had I think

689
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 6: it was, Yeah, so Karen Henderson is an appointee of

690
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 6: George H. W. Bush, and then you had to biden

691
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 6: appointees Florence Pan and Michelle J. Michelle Childs. In this ruling,

692
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 6: they're going through the founder's intentions when they were writing

693
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 6: about impeachment, whether the founders intended it to protect somebody

694
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 6: from these different prosecutions, and basically they mounted some pretty

695
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 6: persuasive evidence.

696
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: Right there in the constitution.

697
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they sent that.

698
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 5: They didn't did they mention the navy seal argument that

699
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 5: the Trump team made in the ruling.

700
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: I didn't see it in the ruling, but I could

701
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: have skimmed over it.

702
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 5: During oral arguments, one of the justices, one of the

703
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 5: judges asked, Okay, well, what would happen if a president

704
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 5: ordered navy seals to go assassinate his political.

705
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 3: Oh they did mention that, Yes, absolutely.

706
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 5: And the Trump attorney was like, that would be fine,

707
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 5: like that, that would be a crime, but you can't

708
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 5: prosecute it because of presidential immunity. And at that point

709
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 5: you're like, all right, I just know as a matter

710
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 5: of fact, that's wrong. That's wrong that the president cannot

711
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 5: put together a death squad that kills his political opponents

712
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 5: and claim immunity for that. That's not a demo. That's

713
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 5: not a democracy. That's not a republic. That's not three

714
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 5: different you don't have three coequal branches. If one branch

715
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 5: can assassinate all the nine justices and then claim immunity

716
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 5: for having done that, or can assassinate everyone in the

717
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 5: in Congress against claim immunity for having done that that

718
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: kind of gives one of the three branches slightly unfair

719
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: hand when it comes to negotiating with the others.

720
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 6: And it's funny because we're going to talk in the

721
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 6: next segment about impeachment powers as it pertains to majorcus.

722
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 6: But the system is really getting a stress test in

723
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 6: these cases. And you know, we may disagree on this,

724
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 6: I don't don't think any of that takes away from

725
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 6: the fact that this is lawfair. I mean, I agree

726
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 6: with Mike Johnson on that point that this is definitely

727
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 6: just a concerted effort by a lot of like actually

728
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 6: you know, nonprofit kind of dark money groups.

729
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: On the left.

730
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 6: It's not saying there aren't those on the right, but

731
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 6: dark money groups on the left to make these ballid

732
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,479
Speaker 6: access challenges, and that you know, the the DOJ and

733
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 6: the Biden administration have supported a lot of these efforts

734
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 6: and put these efforts into the court. And you know,

735
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 6: Trump's representatives have argued that this is disenfranchising voters.

736
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 3: I also agree with that.

737
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 6: I think, you know, you can have this conversation at

738
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 6: the ballot box. I don't like begrudge anyone for having

739
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 6: these debates about the constitutionality of what Donald Trump did. Again, though,

740
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 6: I don't think that makes this any less of law fair,

741
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 6: and I don't think that makes Tanya Chukin who's the

742
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 6: judge that this non gets kicked back to, any less biased.

743
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 6: I think she's completely flagrantly demonstrated her by I sees

744
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 6: in this case in a way that would be inappropriate

745
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 6: and a lot of other cases. But is you know,

746
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 6: going to be allowed to stand in this case in

747
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 6: all likelihood? So, ran, I think we've talked about this before.

748
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 6: The individual cases are different, you know, some of them,

749
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 6: even in the Trump orbit, are viewed as more serious

750
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 6: than others. But there's definitely an effort to disqualify.

751
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 3: Him rather than deal with him at the ballot box.

752
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, that seems that certainly does seem to be that

753
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 5: what that strategy?

754
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 4: Is there way to do it? Yeah?

755
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 5: And if you know anyway, Yes, the whole thing's getting

756
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 5: wild because if you look at the timeline for some

757
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 5: of these you're talking, you know, potential verdicts in the

758
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 5: late summer fall, it's gonna get it's going to be

759
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 5: a bumpy ride, Yeah, from from here on out, that's

760
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 5: for sure, you know.

761
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly like twenty twenty felt like a banana republic, and.

762
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: There's no escaping.

763
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 6: At twenty twenty four will feel like a banana republic basically,

764
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 6: no matter what at this point.

765
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 5: Speaking of banana republics, the House of Representatives yesterday, not

766
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 5: only did they blow up their border deal, which we're

767
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 5: going to talk about here, they failed to impeach Ma

768
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 5: Orcis by one vote, which we're going.

769
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 4: To talk about.

770
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 5: And they even put up their standalone seventeen billion dollars

771
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 5: for Israel knowing that it would fail, and watch and

772
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 5: watched it fail, perhaps the first vote in American history

773
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 5: for weapons for Israel that failed to pass. The House

774
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 5: of Representatives, like Pelosi, pulled some at least pulled at

775
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 5: least one, but never put one on the floor that failed.

776
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 5: I don't know of any effort that actually went onto

777
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 5: the floor of the House of Representatives to send money

778
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 5: and weapons to Israel and came back with a no.

779
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 4: I can't absolutely incredible. You don't move.

780
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 6: These votes to the floor if you were going to fail,

781
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 6: unless you're Mike Johnson.

782
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 5: So let's walk us through the incredible day of Mike

783
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 5: Johnson yesterday.

784
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 6: So Mike Johnson woke up this morning feeling pretty.

785
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 4: Rough figure, right, It wasn't yesterday.

786
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 6: Last night he brought two votes to the floor, the

787
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 6: one Ryan just mentioned on Israel and one on his

788
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 6: big effort, I mean House Republicans huge effort, not just his,

789
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 6: the starter under Kevin McCarthy. They're huge centerpiece, you know,

790
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 6: legislative centerpiece basically, even though it doesn't involve, you know,

791
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 6: really passing legislation other than impeachment articles, which is to

792
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 6: impeach DHS Secretary of Homeland Security Secretary ahdra Majorcus over

793
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 6: his handling of.

794
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 3: The southern border.

795
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 6: Also Afghan refugees made it into the impeachment articles and failed.

796
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 6: He brought both of these votes to the floor without

797
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 6: having enough votes for them to pass. Because and this

798
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 6: is incredible, deep worthy detail. And this is where Republican

799
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,479
Speaker 6: leadership is actually pointing the finger right now. They say

800
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 6: Democrats told them al Green would not be voting. Al

801
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 6: Green would not be voting. Democrat Algreen, who was having

802
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 6: emergency surgery, would not be voting. So Republicans count on

803
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 6: the vote was completely wrong.

804
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 4: They thought they needed two to fifteen.

805
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 6: Because yeah, they thought they need two fifteen because al

806
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 6: Green showed up rolled in in a hospital gown in

807
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 6: a wheelchair and voted against the impeachment of Mayorcis.

808
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: So think about that.

809
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 6: Mike Johnson now looks like he took the word of

810
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 6: Democrats credibly and Democrats absolutely outmaneuvered, outsmarted him by rolling

811
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 6: in al Green in a hospital gown and a wheelchair

812
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 6: to cast a decisive vote.

813
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 3: It looks for Mike Johnson.

814
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 6: Not only does it look, I mean this trickles into

815
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 6: the way that he is respected, the way that he's

816
00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 6: treated by his entire caucus. Basically pretty damn bad for

817
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 6: Mike Johnson. Now this comes amid all of the fighting

818
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 6: in the Senate over go ahead?

819
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 4: Can we let's roll to Marjorie Taylor Green clip? Will

820
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 4: we have it? Which? Which number is that?

821
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: I believe we're all that's seven?

822
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 5: We don't want to leave this Yeah without without some MTG. Yeah,

823
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 5: I think it's seven C seven.

824
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's roll C seven.

825
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: Hid one of these votes that they had, So was

826
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: it something that people would see?

827
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 4: Is that something that we're helping me?

828
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 12: I'm glad. I'm glad you asked that, because well, we

829
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 12: can basically look like, look at this as a game. Unfortunately,

830
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 12: and their strategy and they hid one of their members

831
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 12: waiting to the last minute, watching to see our votes,

832
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 12: trying to throw us off on the numbers that we

833
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 12: had versus the numbers they had. So yeah, that was

834
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 12: a strategy at play tonight.

835
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 6: It's just again deep worthy drama and Mike Johnson looking

836
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 6: basically like he's out of his element. And that's something

837
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 6: that you've heard from Republican circles. You've definitely heard that

838
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 6: from sort of Freedom Caucus circles where people were initially

839
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 6: favorable to the speakership of Mike Johnson.

840
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 3: In fact, some Freedom Caucus.

841
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 6: Members voted along with Matt Gates, to oust Mike Johnson

842
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 6: or to oust Kevin McCarthy and bring in eventually Mike Johnson.

843
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 6: Thomas Massy, who sort of Freedom Caucus adjacent, tweeted this

844
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 6: morning that it now makes it look ridiculous the effort

845
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 6: to get rid of McCarthy has resulted in so many

846
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 6: different failures. Although I'm sure Matt Gates, who recently, I

847
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 6: think just in the last like twelve hours, endorsed Kevin

848
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 6: McCarthy for the head of the RNC amid some reports

849
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 6: that Ron and McDaniel is seriously thinking about stepping down

850
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 6: Matt Gates would say, well, the chaos was basically the point,

851
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 6: because you know there was no hope of doing anything

852
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 6: substantive anyway. That is again when you spend months pitching

853
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 6: the impeachment of Aejondra Mayorcis as a substantive victory and

854
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 6: then lose because Mike Johnson brought the vote to the

855
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 6: floor thinking he had the right number of votes when

856
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 6: Democrats were just apparently ostensibly lying to his face. It

857
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 6: doesn't really get much worse than that. One person voted

858
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 6: procedurally to make sure they would be able to One

859
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 6: Republican voted against the impeachment as a total party party

860
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 6: line vote in.

861
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 5: Order to the three Republicans who voted no. Their argument was,

862
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 5: he's a bad minister of the government. Yes, yeah, right, he's,

863
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 5: but it's not illegal. It's not impeachable that like, he's

864
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 5: basically carrying out what Biden once been due Biden was elected,

865
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 5: and you can't impeach somebody for not.

866
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 4: Doing that, not not sharing your politics.

867
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 5: It's basically the three no votes, right, Ken bomb constitutional.

868
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 5: They said, we're stretching the constitution because we're claiming he's

869
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 5: stretching the law.

870
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 6: So it was ken Buck, Mike Gallagher, and this is the

871
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 6: things that wintalk. I think McLintock, tomcclintock, Jonathan Turley actually

872
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 6: made this argument. Who's really popular and sort of right

873
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 6: of center circles because he's been a staunch defender of

874
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 6: Donald Trump's rights basically amid all of the law fair

875
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 6: He's sort of almost a Dershowitz type figure in that space,

876
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 6: erstwhile figure of the left or at least the center,

877
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 6: who is, you know, constantly putting substance on these these

878
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 6: arguments that are favorable to Donald Trump. Even he came

879
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 6: out and wrote that these impeachment articles don't quite cut

880
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 6: the mustard for Mayorcus. I had a super fun night

881
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 6: last night and actually went through the impeachment articles again,

882
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 6: and honestly, the impeachment articles do a really good job

883
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 6: showing that Mayorcus has utterly botched the border.

884
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 4: I don't know that they crime.

885
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 6: I know they don't mention a crime except for violating

886
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 6: the Violating his oath of office essentially is the charge.

887
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 6: And it's one of the reasons, like Gallagher said, he

888
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 6: voted against this because as soon as you start to

889
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 6: sort of stretch those definitions you get into Banana Republic.

890
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 5: You get you could hit any opposing party cabinet secretary

891
00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 5: with that.

892
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: And that's the argue that Gallagher sort of prebud just.

893
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 4: Name another DHS secretary. That's the other silly part of it.

894
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 6: Exactly, yes, and well, the Senate's not voting to impeach

895
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 6: America's I mean, it's just not too before we get

896
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 6: to the Senate. One final point on that, Republicans would say, yeah, exactly,

897
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 6: Democrats inflated the definition of impeachable offenses when they went

898
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 6: after Donald Trump, and so we're giving Americas intentionally, strategically

899
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 6: a taste of his own medicine. They might not say

900
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 6: that aloud, but that's definitely part of the reason that

901
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 6: they're sort of they say they're responding to the weaponization

902
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 6: of impeachment, not weaponizing it themselves, responding to the weapon

903
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 6: exactly they started.

904
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 3: It is where we're going with this.

905
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 6: Now on the Senate side, we can put this first

906
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 6: element up on the screen. They are probably going to

907
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 6: kill this so called bipartisan border deal that turned out

908
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 6: not to be that bipartisan because if we put the

909
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 6: next element up on the screen and you have even

910
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 6: John Cornyan very very friendly with leadership. In leadership himself

911
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 6: the latest senior GP Coffort's member, as Politico says to say,

912
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 6: he opposes advancing the legislation this week, arguing that lawmakers

913
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 6: quote need more time, but said, I'm pretty confident we

914
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 6: can do better with a new president who actually will

915
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 6: enforce the law.

916
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 3: You might need a new leader of the Senate.

917
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 6: Actually, we'll get into that in just a moment in

918
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 6: order to do much better. Even Mitch McConnell has said

919
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 6: that it would be wrong to move on this legislation

920
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 6: because quote, the mood in the country has changed. I

921
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 6: think that happened around two thousand and six, So I'm

922
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 6: glad he's finally catching up.

923
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 5: The mood in the Senate Chamber has changed as well,

924
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 5: And we don't need to rehash all this because Crystalin

925
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 5: Sager went through it. But from my perspective, I'm like, Wow,

926
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 5: like Democrats on a silver platter handed the administration enormous

927
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 5: amounts of power that could have been weaponized by Donald

928
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 5: Trump to do absolutely anything. In Steven Miller, these tools

929
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 5: and the hands of Steven Miller would have made what

930
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 5: the first administration did on the border h Look, look, gentle,

931
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 5: and now if Trump does get elected, he's going to

932
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 5: have to try to use the current authorities. And Steven

933
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 5: Miller has shown like a lot of creativity and willingness

934
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 5: to stretch those you know, beyond you know what anybody

935
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 5: could imagine before. But he's going to have to do

936
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 5: that rather than having extraordinary powers that Democrats were ready

937
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 5: to give to Stephen Miller, which is just a mind

938
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 5: boggling like moment.

939
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,919
Speaker 6: Well, it's an interesting thing with this bill is that

940
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 6: it basically tries to legalize things that have been caught

941
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 6: up in the courts different executive actions, you know, not

942
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 6: like technically eas but actual like executive authorities that have

943
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 6: been used to do different things with asylum, and tries

944
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 6: to finally legislate so that those things don't get caught

945
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 6: up in the court determinating determining whether it's a fair

946
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 6: use of executive authority. And so, yes, your point, it

947
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 6: does expand executive authority in some pretty critical ways. Now,

948
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 6: speaking to McConnell, the McConnell fellows over on Ruthless are upset.

949
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 5: Ruthless is a pretty popular like conservative podcast, right.

950
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: I guess if we have to call it conservative.

951
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 5: It's like podcast, it's populated by former McConnell and McConnell

952
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 5: orbit people.

953
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 6: And yeah, McConnell orbit people, yeah exactly, and people who

954
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,959
Speaker 6: are in the Republican consultant space.

955
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 4: Conservative.

956
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, he comfortably smug is on it, and

957
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 6: smug is genuinely really funny. But they come from definitely

958
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,479
Speaker 6: the establishment Republican Party, like, no question about it. And

959
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 6: they had a little meltdown over how Senate Conservatives reacted

960
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 6: to the rollout of Langford's bill basically accused Mike Lee

961
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 6: of protecting Hamas.

962
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 3: Take a listen to this, and I'm being deadly serious

963
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 3: about that. I'm talking about people like Mike Lee.

964
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: Mike Mike Lee is a perfect example of the only

965
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: thing that he really wants to make sure of is

966
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: that we don't kill Hamas.

967
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 6: And he went on to basically say that Mike Lee's

968
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 6: the only job in the seting. That's Josh Holmes again,

969
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 6: former longtime McConnell staffer who's now on the consulting side.

970
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 4: Ran the super Pac.

971
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, well, so that's Josh Holmes saying that Mike Lee,

972
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 6: who opposes the border deal, is basically just caring about

973
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 6: protecting Hamas.

974
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 5: I guess it's nice to see that everyone across the

975
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 5: political spectrum gets accused baselessly for supporting hamas I did.

976
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 6: I will admit I did a little photoshop yesterday and

977
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 6: I did put Mike Lee on the cover of Ryan's book.

978
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll add that that was a good one.

979
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 6: So John McCormick, we can put this next element up

980
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 6: on the screen tweets that a reporter asked Langford of

981
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 6: Oklahoma how it felt to be run over by a bus.

982
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 6: Langford replied quote and backed up just perfect.

983
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 3: Now put the next element up on the screen.

984
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 6: This is from my boss at the Federalist, Sean Davis,

985
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 6: who's reacting to a statement that John Barrasso so along

986
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 6: with John corn and these are like two Mitch McConn

987
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 6: two of Mitch McConnell's, as Shan says, top lieutenant's top guys.

988
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 6: Barasso yesterday came out and said that he was a

989
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 6: no on the bill. Sean then waded in and said,

990
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 6: there's a lot going on in this statement and what's

991
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 6: happening basically we can just keep moving through. It was

992
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 6: like John basically wrote an essay here because it's the

993
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 6: dynamics are genuinely pretty interesting and actually speak to sort

994
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 6: of the flip side and the Republican Party.

995
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 3: What you wrote about in your book ran on the.

996
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 6: Democratic side that a lot of people are feeling really

997
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 6: badly for James Langford that McConnell. They say, essentially McConnell

998
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 6: negotiated this failed bipartisan package with the goal of securing

999
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 6: money for Ukraine, knowing that it's dead on arrival in

1000
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 6: the House. If you know, you don't that the additional

1001
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 6: Ukraine funding is said on the arrival in the House,

1002
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 6: if you don't do anything with the border. The House

1003
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 6: has insisted on passing HR two. So let's have James

1004
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 6: Langford go and negotiate. But people really personally like James

1005
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 6: Langford and they don't want to take their anger out

1006
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 6: on him because they feel as though Mitch McConnell worked

1007
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 6: with Chuck Schumer on this and that James Langford was

1008
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 6: used basically as a pawn by Mitch McConnell. Chuck Schumer

1009
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 6: himself said he'd never worked as closely on a piece

1010
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 6: of legislation with McConnell as he did on this piece

1011
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 6: of legislation that's out in the open here, So they're

1012
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 6: sort of like Barasso shifting to blame to Biden, saying

1013
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 6: that Biden failed James Langford, who just worked tirelessly to

1014
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 6: secure the border at all costs. And that's basically the

1015
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 6: spin coming from people on the right at this point.

1016
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 6: Really something Ryan to see these dynamics. We have video

1017
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 6: here of some of these senators reacting to the divides themselves.

1018
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 6: It is time for Mitch McConnell's.

1019
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 4: I think it is.

1020
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: Look everyone here also supported a leadership challenge to Mitch.

1021
00:53:58,320 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 4: McConnell in November.

1022
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 13: I think a Republican leader should actually lead this conference

1023
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 13: and should advance the priorities of Republicans.

1024
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 11: Senator Ted Cruz had a press conference around noon today

1025
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 11: said that you shouldn't have even tried to negotiate with Democrats,

1026
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 11: so this bill was designed to fail, and that it's

1027
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 11: time for you to step down as GEOP leader.

1028
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 8: What's your response to that.

1029
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 7: I think we can all agree that Senator Cruz is not.

1030
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: A fan, so mcconnogs, I think we can all agree.

1031
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 3: I'm not. I shouldn't do the accent, I won't.

1032
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 6: I think we can all agree that Senator Cruz is

1033
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 6: not a fan of the bill, and so Mitch McConnel

1034
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 6: seems pretty LOOSEI there.

1035
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 3: But again, one of the other chief.

1036
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 6: Complaints is that he's getting rolled like Mike Johnson by Democrats,

1037
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 6: not because he is weak in the same way that

1038
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 6: a lot of people on the House side think Mike

1039
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 6: Johnson is, but because he's old. We played that club

1040
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 6: of Biden earlier in the show, stumbling to get through

1041
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,720
Speaker 6: a sentence about Israel Palestine. People feel like that's happening

1042
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 6: with Mitch McConnell as well, that he's both physically frail

1043
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 6: and intellectually frail men frail at this point and is

1044
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 6: getting steamrolled, is not responsive to constituents.

1045
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 3: Et cetera, et cetera. So pretty tough for miss McConnell.

1046
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 6: It looks like, based on what Cruz said, all those

1047
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 6: people there, Cruz is right, did not support they supported

1048
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 6: leadership challenges to McConnell. Last time that was up for

1049
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 6: a vote, I think it was like ten votes against McConnell's.

1050
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 6: So they're going to need to bring a lot more

1051
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 6: people over to that side. If those numbers start stacking up,

1052
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 6: you could potentially see McConnell step down to a position

1053
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 6: like Pelosi is now.

1054
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 3: I don't think he would just outright leave the Senate.

1055
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 6: But where the sleeves things is, as reports are, we

1056
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 6: can put this next element up on the screen. Republican

1057
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 6: senators are now floating the option of moving for a

1058
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 6: foreign aid package that is divorced from the border, which

1059
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 6: ran I think that's their only option.

1060
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 5: That's where this was headed the entire time, and so

1061
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 5: and Haggard he later clarified that he is not floating this,

1062
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 5: that people like Corny and Graham, Jony earnstar and so

1063
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 5: the idea would be, you you're combining money for Israel,

1064
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 5: money for Ukraine, and also money for you know, potential

1065
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 5: Taiwan war, and that there are more than sixty votes

1066
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 5: for that. So just give up on this whole border

1067
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 5: thing and just move it through. That appears to be

1068
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 5: where all of this is headed.

1069
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, this was predictable from the beginning.

1070
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, And.

1071
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 5: It's fascinating that because they couldn't move that Israel money

1072
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 5: through the House, you know, Democrats voted it down because

1073
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 5: they say it's a stunt and they want Ukraine and

1074
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 5: Taiwan money in there as well. The Freedom Caucus though

1075
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 5: cited kind of fiscal austerity and populist nationalism, which is

1076
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 5: rather extraordinary development. To have a strong block of kind

1077
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 5: of hard right Republicans standing up to Apak.

1078
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 4: Quite a development.

1079
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is really interesting. That's a great point, and

1080
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 6: that's what oh like, we've this has been a long

1081
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 6: and kind of chunky block with all of these elements.

1082
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 6: But again, it reminds me so much of the dynamics

1083
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,439
Speaker 6: you write about in your book on the Democratic side.

1084
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 6: On the Republican side, there's this incredible tug of war

1085
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 6: that the media does a really bad job of covering,

1086
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 6: just sort of treating Mitch McConnell as though he's like

1087
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 6: a conservative stalwart, when in fact he is the most

1088
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 6: according to some surveys, disliked politician in the country. Republicans

1089
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 6: hate working with Mitch mcconnald at this point, Conservatives hate

1090
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 6: working with Mitch mcconald at this point. And now whatever

1091
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 6: goes forward, they have to contend with Mike Johnson being

1092
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 6: increasingly distrusted and disliked by a lot of conservatives and

1093
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 6: probably a lot of moderates aren't super happy with Mike Johnson.

1094
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 6: On the Republican side, right now, so that's a barrier

1095
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 6: to passing legislation. If you have that some of a margin,

1096
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 6: lose trust in leadership, their ability to pass this money

1097
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 6: is in serious jeopardy even if they divorce it.

1098
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 5: And you know, McConnell has long been called this like

1099
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 5: absolute genius in Washington. I've long been highly skeptical of

1100
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 5: that judgment. He's been very good at saying no to things,

1101
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 5: which is easy because all you need is forty one

1102
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 5: you can say no to things. He's been very good

1103
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 5: at for decades raising lots of money from very wealthy

1104
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 5: interests in order to give them you deregulatory policy and

1105
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 5: tax cuts.

1106
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 4: Yes, but there's no genius underneath any of that.

1107
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 5: Just saying no, saying no and getting money from rich

1108
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 5: people's and so that you can give them even more

1109
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 5: than they gave you.

1110
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 4: Like that's not hard. No, it really is take a

1111
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 4: genius to do that.

1112
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 6: No, But if you're good to the media, they're good

1113
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 6: back to you. And so if you drip leaks to

1114
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 6: them and dish out those leaks and you have Josh Holmes.

1115
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 4: You know, those guys are good. They used to be

1116
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 4: really good.

1117
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: But again, it's not that hard to just be nice

1118
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 3: to the media.

1119
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 5: Speaking of money for the Ukraine War, Tucker Carlson announced

1120
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 5: on Twitter that he's over in Moscow.

1121
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 4: Let's roll a little bit of Tucker here.

1122
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: We're in Moscow tonight. We're here to interview the President

1123
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: of Russia, Vladimir Putin, will be doing that soon. They

1124
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: are risks to conducting an interview like this, obviously, so

1125
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: we've thought about it carefully over many months. Here's why

1126
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: we're doing it first, because it's our job. We're in journalism.

1127
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: Our duty is to inform people. Two years into a

1128
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: war that's reshaping the entire world, most Americans are not informed.

1129
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: This war has utterly reshaped the global military and trade alliances,

1130
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: and the sanctions that followed have as well, and in total,

1131
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: they have upended the world economy. The post World War

1132
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: II economic order, the system that guaranteed prosperity in the

1133
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: West for more than eighty years is coming apart very fast,

1134
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: and along with it the dominance of the US dollar.

1135
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: These are not small changes. They are history altering developments.

1136
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: They able to define the lives of our grandchildren. Most

1137
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: of the world understands this perfectly well. They can see

1138
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: it ask anyone in Asia the Middle eas lest what

1139
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: the future looks like, and yet the populations of the

1140
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: English speaking countries seem mostly unaware. They think that nothing

1141
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: has really changed, and they think that because no one

1142
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: has told them the truth, their media outlets are corrupt.

1143
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: They lie to their readers and viewers, and they do

1144
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: that mostly by omission. For example, since the day the

1145
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: war in Ukraine began, American media outlets have spoken to

1146
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: scores of people from Ukraine, and they have done scores

1147
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: of interviews with Ukrainian presidents Zelenski. We ourselves have put

1148
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: in a request for an interview with Zelensky, and we

1149
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: hope he accepts. But the interviews he's already done in

1150
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: the United States are not traditional interviews. They are fawning

1151
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: pep sessions, specifically designed to amplify Zelensky's demand that the

1152
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: US entry more deeply into a war in Eastern Europe

1153
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: and pay for it. That is not journalism. It is

1154
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 1: government propaganda, propaganda of the ugliest kind. That we are

1155
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: not encouraging you to agree with what Putin may say

1156
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: in this interview, but we are urging you to watch it.

1157
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: You should know as much as you can and then,

1158
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: like a free citizen and not a slave, you can

1159
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: decide for yourself.

1160
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 6: So the news that Tucker was in Moscow was greeted

1161
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 6: with let's say, what's the right word for this rage

1162
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 6: in some corners of the media, scoffing, and some quarters

1163
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 6: of the media not entirely surprising. He should be noted

1164
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 6: that NBC News as recently as a few years ago

1165
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 6: had done an interview with Vladimir Putin. Here's a flavor

1166
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 6: of what some folks in the media had to say

1167
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 6: about Tucker's trip to Russia. Carlson is now just another

1168
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 6: far raid conspiracy pedler with a show on the Internet.

1169
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 3: He's no longer on Fox as we all know, and

1170
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 3: he's apparently been spending the last few days in Moscow

1171
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: for some reason. Who knows. We don't know why.

1172
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 4: He has to stay relevant somehow, so I guess we'll

1173
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 4: learn the coming days.

1174
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 3: Maybe. Yeah.

1175
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 14: Well, when I first heard that he was there, I

1176
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 14: just assumed he was there to get an award, because

1177
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 14: there probably isn't an American who has done more for

1178
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 14: Vladimir Putin in the last couple of years than Tucker Carlson.

1179
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 14: He's been he sided with Russia on the invasion. He

1180
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 14: was consistently bet rating Vladimir Zelenski and lifting up Putin,

1181
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 14: So that's how he got the interview. And I think

1182
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 14: Putin's expecting a friendly interview. You know, Putin actually order

1183
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 14: of the Kremlin. Did State TV to cover Tucker and

1184
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 14: to carry some of Tucker's comments because they viewed them

1185
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 14: as so helpful to Putin in this war effort. So

1186
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 14: I'm sure they'll have a warm a warm session, whether

1187
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 14: it's an award or I guess the interview would be

1188
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 14: his award award.

1189
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 3: The meeting of the Mutual Admiration Society over in that

1190
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 3: was a little smug.

1191
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 6: Aaron Burnett also criticized Tucker for basically being or She highlighted,

1192
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 6: let's say the State TV coverage of Tucker's visit to

1193
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 6: Moscow and previous coverage of Tucker and his comments on

1194
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 6: the Ukraine War as a sort of criticism of him

1195
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 6: going over to interview Putin. And here's Christian amenpor we

1196
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 6: can put this element up on the screen. Does Tucker

1197
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 6: really think we journalists haven't been trying to interview President

1198
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 6: Putin every day since his full scale invasion of Ukraine.

1199
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 6: It's absurd. We'll continue to ask for an interview, just

1200
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 6: as we have for years now. Because in that video,

1201
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 6: it's about five minutes long. We just played a clip

1202
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 6: of it. Tucker explains that he one of the reasons

1203
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 6: he goes over there is one of the reasons he

1204
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 6: went over there is because he doesn't feel as though

1205
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 6: Putin has gotten anyt he's given any access to Western journalists,

1206
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 6: because in his contention is that Western journalists have basically

1207
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 6: not tried to interview Putin.

1208
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 3: They've made up their mind about Putin.

1209
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 5: What do you make of that, Ryan, I mean, I

1210
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 5: think Christian Amanpur is one of the few that can

1211
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 5: credibly push back on that claim.

1212
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 4: She would absolutely be happy to interview Putin.

1213
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 5: And I think anybody out there who is critical of

1214
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 5: the concept of Tucker Carls and interviewing Putin should consider

1215
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 5: those a'men por comments, Amenporou would be eager to interview him.

1216
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 5: I think the question becomes, how does he do the interview?

1217
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 5: And he's under a lot of pressure to do a serious,

1218
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 5: hard hitting interview, and I hope that he does because

1219
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 5: that's the kind of interview the world needs to see.

1220
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 5: I think there's a chance he will do that because

1221
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 5: he treated this one differently than he has treated previous ones.

1222
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 5: In other words, so he previously interviewed Andrew Tate and

1223
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 5: that was a softball interview.

1224
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 4: I defended the concept of.

1225
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 5: Interviewing Andrew Tate, but giving him a softball interview that

1226
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 5: I don't defend. He did not explain ahead of time,

1227
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 5: defend or defend the decision to interview Andrew Tate like

1228
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 5: he just did. He just put this preemptive self defense

1229
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 5: of his decision to interview Vladimir Putin. And so he

1230
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 5: understands the pressure he's under there. So if he understands

1231
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 5: the pressure he's under and he still gives a softball interview,

1232
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 5: I think that'll be an interest call on his part

1233
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 5: to make. So the question should never be do you

1234
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 5: interview a public figure? It's how you do the interview,

1235
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 5: you know. CNN's Peter Bergen famously made his career by

1236
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 5: getting an interview with Osama bin Laden in a cave.

1237
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 5: It was a phenomenon at the time when he did

1238
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 5: it. It was this is nineteen ninety seven, so it was

1239
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 5: before September eleventh, But people in the no still understood

1240
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 5: Osam bin Laden to be like the world's leading terrorist.

1241
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 5: And but of course, if you have the opportunity to

1242
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 5: interview even Osama bin Laden, you take that interview, but

1243
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 5: you challenge him. So we'll see how the interview rolls out,

1244
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 5: and I think that will will determine whether you know

1245
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 5: what we can say about.

1246
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 6: The decision in Tucker said in that video he secured

1247
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 6: an agreement from Elon Muskin Acts to air the video

1248
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 6: in full the interview in full, which of course we

1249
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 6: still don't have the interview, were waiting for it to

1250
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 6: be released. But that's interesting too because Musk has actually

1251
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 6: cooperated with Starlink in Ukraine.

1252
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 3: In the past.

1253
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 6: And if talker errs, which is again this is We've

1254
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 6: talked about this many times.

1255
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 3: It's crazy that.

1256
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 6: Elon Musk is in this position of like immense geopolitical

1257
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 6: military power as essentially an unelected member of the business community.

1258
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 6: If Tucker airs an interview that's overly flattering to putin

1259
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 6: a lot of people were mentioning that he cut those

1260
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,919
Speaker 6: comments of Kanye West going into like anti submitic conspiratorial

1261
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 6: territory from the interview he did with Kanye, asking if

1262
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 6: Kanye sounded crazy and then then rolling you know, cutting

1263
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 6: ostensibly cutting what made Kanye sound absolutely crazy. If he

1264
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 6: does something similar with Putin, perhaps that can add friction

1265
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 6: to his relationship with Elon Musk. If Elon Musk is

1266
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 6: forced to basically allow an interview that you know, he

1267
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 6: thinks is uncomfortable or needs a community note or something

1268
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 6: like that. I don't know if they have any agreements

1269
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 6: about that. But Tucker's business does really rely on X.

1270
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 6: It's called Tucker on X, the show is called Tucker

1271
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 6: on X, So there are legitimate business interests for Tucker

1272
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 6: to balance in doing a good job with this interview.

1273
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 6: I agree that the pressures is so high that to

1274
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 6: be overly flattering. To be fair, the media is going

1275
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 6: to say that this interview is overly flattering. No matter what,

1276
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 6: Tucker could do a great job. Tucker could be Christian

1277
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 6: I'm impoor and handle the interview the exact same way

1278
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 6: as she would from even sort of a blobby foreign

1279
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 6: policy establishment type way, and the media would pull out

1280
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 6: any different clips and say that this was reckless and

1281
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 6: Tucker was sucking up to Putin, et cetera, et cetera.

1282
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 6: So even if the interview like veers into territory, that

1283
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 6: it shouldn't a couple of times it was going to

1284
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 6: happen no matter what Tucker knows, It's going to happen,

1285
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,479
Speaker 6: no matter what Tucker says, most Americans don't understand why

1286
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 6: Putin invaded Ukraine. Ryan, I think that's true in the

1287
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 6: effort to expose that, though.

1288
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 5: He does have to be right, and we're not going

1289
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 5: to get an answer to why Russian invaded Ukraine. We're

1290
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 5: going to get Putin's explanation and propaganda for why he

1291
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 5: invaded Ukraine, which is fine, Like we want to hear

1292
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 5: what propaganda all different sides are putting out and sort through.

1293
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 3: It, like right and there is.

1294
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 6: It is true that the media has basically given no

1295
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 6: airtime to Putin's propaganda, so that what Tucker is saying

1296
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 6: in that video is basically Americans don't even understand what,

1297
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 6: you know, the their billions of dollars are fighting or

1298
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 6: or fighting from Putin's perspective, like what it's you know,

1299
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 6: And I actually think that's perfectly reasonable because you know

1300
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 6: that's it's war. It's again billions of dollars, and you

1301
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 6: know there's there's so little coverage of that in the media.

1302
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 6: People are smart enough to decide from themselves. They don't

1303
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 6: need the government to protect them from whys from foreign leaders.

1304
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 6: Foreign leaders lie all the time like people can figure

1305
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 6: it out themselves. And Ryan, actually, this is a good

1306
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 6: transition to the next block on Pakistan, because you've interviewed

1307
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 6: controversial foreign leaders, including Imran Khan. You interviewed on this

1308
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 6: show on this channel, and people can go watch it.

1309
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 6: Imran Khan And that had to have been, in and

1310
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 6: of itself a high pressure and tricky task.

1311
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 4: That was it.

1312
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 5: I was a fascinating interview and I tried to press

1313
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 5: him on, you know, some of his own So Imran

1314
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 5: kan is a foreign Prime Minister of Pakistan who was

1315
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 5: ousted in a no confidence vote in twenty twenty two

1316
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 5: through pressure from the US State Department as well as

1317
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 5: the Pakistani military. But yeah, when I interviewed him, I

1318
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 5: pushed him on the question of you.

1319
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 4: Know, how does it feel to.

1320
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,759
Speaker 5: Have kind of had some of the same tactics turned

1321
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 5: on you that you were using against some of your

1322
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 5: own opponents. Because he was criticized heavily during his term

1323
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:57,440
Speaker 5: for cracking down on civil society, cracking down on dissent, censoring, censoring, censoring.

1324
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 4: The media.

1325
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 5: Now because he was ousted before his term was over.

1326
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,439
Speaker 5: Pakistan was supposed to have a new election almost a

1327
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 5: year ago. Instead, it'll happen tonight US time, tomorrow, tomorrow,

1328
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 5: Pakistan time.

1329
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 4: February eighth. Pakistani voters are going to go to the polls.

1330
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 5: Have a new story up over at the Intercept, which

1331
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,879
Speaker 5: is which looks at the incredible ways that the military

1332
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 5: backed government is undermining the election over there. They're utterly

1333
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 5: kind of almost fantastical and unbelievable.

1334
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 4: Kind of the lowest level thing that.

1335
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:38,960
Speaker 5: The Pakistani government is doing to undermine democracy in Pakistan

1336
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 5: would practically be the most serious thing that anybody could

1337
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 5: have found in the twenty twenty presidential election. Like you

1338
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:53,440
Speaker 5: want to complain about censorship, they're just absolutely just completely

1339
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 5: censoring everything in Pakistan. You want to complain about, you know,

1340
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 5: kind of Silicon Valley folks being nudged by DHS. They're

1341
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 5: threatening to close the entire shutdown the entire internet for

1342
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 5: the election on Thursday.

1343
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 3: So just.

1344
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 5: To give people a flavor of what pack the Pakistani

1345
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 5: government is doing, we're going to run through some of these.

1346
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 5: But first on Monday, the State Department was pressed yet

1347
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 5: again on it's kind of shrugging off of a lot

1348
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 5: of a lot of the concerns that haven't been raised

1349
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 5: about democracy after the State Department pushed in ron Khan

1350
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 5: out of power and they made their kind of most

1351
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 5: forceful comment to date. But all of that is relative,

1352
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 5: and you'll see how forceful this sounds. Here's van Am

1353
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 5: Patel at the US State Department on Monday.

1354
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 9: Continuing to monitor Pakistan's electoral process quite closely. Then, as

1355
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 9: we have said, we want to see that process take

1356
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 9: place in a way that facilitates broad participation with respect

1357
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 9: for freedom of expression, assembly and associations. We have concerns

1358
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 9: of the all incidents of violence and restrictions on media freedom,

1359
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 9: freedom of expression, including internet freedom and peaceful and a

1360
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 9: peaceful assembly and association. We're concerned by some of the

1361
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 9: infringements that we've seen in that space. Pakistanis deserve to

1362
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 9: exercise their fundamental right to choose their future leaders through

1363
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 9: free and fair elections without fear, violence or intimidation, and

1364
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 9: it is ultimately for the people of Pakistan to decide

1365
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 9: their political future.

1366
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 5: In the past, the State Department had just said, you know,

1367
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 5: we hope that there will be free and fair elections,

1368
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 5: and we urge there to be free and fair elections.

1369
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 5: This one gets a little bit goes a little bit

1370
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 5: beyond that, and it comes as you're seeing intense pressure

1371
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 5: from members of Congress.

1372
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 4: We're going to talk to Greg Gasar later in the show.

1373
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 5: He's one of those who's been putting pressure on the

1374
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 5: Pakistan military to respect democracy. But let's run through just

1375
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 5: a couple of these things that they're doing, because maybe.

1376
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 4: It's taste of what we'll get here one day.

1377
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 5: But so first of all, you can put up this Dawn,

1378
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,600
Speaker 5: this element from Dawn, a major paper in Pakistan that

1379
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 5: writes alarm over quote snatching of PTI nomination papers and

1380
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,640
Speaker 5: so PTI is Imron Kahn's party. So basically, rank and

1381
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 5: file candidates are taking their nomination papers, going to the

1382
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 5: office where they file those papers and just having them

1383
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 5: snatched and basically thrown away.

1384
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 4: They just can't run separately.

1385
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 5: Instead, they're just being arrested at the office for filing papers.

1386
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 5: And then they'll emerge, they'll hobble out of detention several

1387
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,600
Speaker 5: days later, clearly having been tortured, and will announce that

1388
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 5: they're actually withdrawing. They don't intend to run after all,

1389
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 5: or if they do manage to get their papers in

1390
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 5: and get home, their homes and the homes of their

1391
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 5: relatives are raided over the next couple of days, and

1392
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 5: then they announced that there that they're not running anymore,

1393
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 5: so basically trying to make sure that there are kind

1394
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 5: of no candidates for anybody to vote for. One of

1395
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 5: the wilder things that we've seen is you saw a

1396
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 5: low level of fish shill blue the whistle on what's

1397
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 5: called the election management system, saying that it's having all

1398
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 5: sorts of funky issues that suggest that it's it's been

1399
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,120
Speaker 5: hacked and been controlled from the outside.

1400
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 4: This is where they do the vote counting.

1401
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 5: Uh, the Pakistan military had put a this is supposed

1402
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 5: to be a civilian operation. They put a general, They

1403
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 5: put an acting general to oversee the thing does not

1404
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 5: necessarily inspire too much confidence.

1405
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 3: Never a good sign.

1406
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 4: Never good sign.

1407
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 5: We already talked about how they're they're threatening to you know,

1408
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 5: and there their real fears that they're going to shut

1409
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 5: down the entire government from like February seventh to ninth,

1410
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 5: so like during during the election in run, Khan has

1411
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 5: been banned from running for office, like he's not allowed.

1412
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 5: Like he's not allowed. He's in prison right now. Pretty

1413
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 5: fundamental problem for a political party, Uh, the PTIs. Every

1414
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 5: party has a symbol here in the US. I guess

1415
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 5: the Democrats have a donkey because it's the substantial portion

1416
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 5: of the Pakistani electorate can't read.

1417
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 4: They'll vote, they'll vote on the symbol.

1418
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 5: The PTI's symbol is a cricket bat because Imran Khan

1419
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 5: is a famous cricketer. Supreme Court they're ruled on some

1420
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 5: bizarre technicality that doesn't apply to any other party. They

1421
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 5: can't use their bat anymore. And so what they're what

1422
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 5: they're what they're forcing all of PTI's candidates to do

1423
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 5: is run as independents without any symbol, and so people

1424
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 5: are just gonna have to kind of guess, you know,

1425
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 5: which which candidate is the one that they're supporting. What

1426
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 5: that also means is that even if despite all of

1427
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:40,200
Speaker 5: these obstacles, the Pakistani voters do choose PTI candidates to

1428
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 5: have a majority in the parliament, they're now all independents

1429
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,839
Speaker 5: and they're not subject to these anti horse trading laws.

1430
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 5: So the military can go to them and put the

1431
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 5: same kind of pressures that they did on candidates not

1432
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 5: to run to switch parties, and so then they might.

1433
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 4: Hobble out of.

1434
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 5: Out of the ten after getting abducted and announced you know,

1435
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 5: I'm actually joining with this party instead not going to

1436
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 5: be with PTI anymore. And so that means even if

1437
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:13,560
Speaker 5: they win, like the military has a backup plan. Meanwhile,

1438
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 5: there there have been PTI candidates who have been killed lately.

1439
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 5: There was an explosion at a PTI rally where I

1440
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 5: think ten ten people were killed. The I s KR

1441
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 5: claimed responsibility for that, which is the kind of an

1442
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:34,519
Speaker 5: ISIS affiliate. But nobody can explain why an ISIS affiliate

1443
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 5: would be targeting a bunch of PTI rallies. And people

1444
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 5: have pointed out that there are links and there have

1445
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:43,599
Speaker 5: been known links in the past between the I s

1446
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 5: I and these and these terror groups. And also the

1447
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 5: fact that it's reported that they claim responsibility for a

1448
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 5: bombing doesn't necessarily mean that they actually did a bombing.

1449
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 4: So you've got all these So you've got just random terrorist.

1450
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 5: Bombings of these PTI rallies when when there's actually no

1451
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 5: kind of direct political rationale that that ISIS would have

1452
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 5: to like target uh pt I you've also had police

1453
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 5: raids of candidates all all over the place, and you've

1454
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 5: even had reports and very credible reports coming out of

1455
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 5: kind of PTI strongholds, uh that police are pulling over

1456
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 5: all people and grabbing them and giving them just tickets

1457
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 5: by the boat load. And if you get a ticket,

1458
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 5: and Pakistan police can confiscate your ident, your ID, which

1459
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 5: you don't get back until you pay the ticket, So

1460
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,799
Speaker 5: that that could mean like thousands and thousands of people

1461
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 5: could be without their ideas and then can't show up

1462
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 5: to vote. Just the most petty you like, pathetic, little

1463
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 5: stuffy tax stuff just doing like as somebody described it

1464
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 5: to me, they're like, if you can think of something

1465
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 5: that you could do to reduce the vote share from

1466
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 5: pt I. Uh, They're they're doing it. It's it's just

1467
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 5: wildly across the board. But it's but you are so

1468
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 5: Abigail Spamberger m HM just put out a sent out

1469
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 5: set a letter today to Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln

1470
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 5: warning about all this stuff you had, Abigail, which that's

1471
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 5: going to resonate because you know, because of her close

1472
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 5: links to the Intelligence Agency. The House Foreign Affairs, the

1473
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:24,920
Speaker 5: chairman is Michael McCall. He's been vocal on this. Greg Meeks,

1474
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:27,679
Speaker 5: the Democrat who's the ranking member on House Foreign Affairs,

1475
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 5: has also been vocal on this. So you're finally starting

1476
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 5: to see some costure pressure, right, right, was a big,

1477
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:36,600
Speaker 5: big Pakistani population, that's right, and it's significant one in

1478
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 5: Virginia as well. And and Spamberger is running for governor.

1479
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:41,799
Speaker 5: That's right in Virginia.

1480
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 6: So another headache for the Biden administration with in the

1481
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,559
Speaker 6: Middle East, with an ally that is not going to

1482
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 6: be fun for them to continue to navigate, as the

1483
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:53,879
Speaker 6: clip that you played from the briefing shows, Yeah.

1484
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 5: And it's like, we should get results tomorrow, but it's

1485
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 5: hard to take seriously the idea that we should wait

1486
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 5: and like even take you know, give any stock to

1487
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,400
Speaker 5: what they're going to report the results are after And

1488
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 5: the real tragedy is there was a lot of pressure

1489
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 5: on PTI to boycott the election, like like, look, this

1490
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 5: is this is such a travesty of democracy, you can't

1491
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 5: even participate in this. But Pakistani people have fought so

1492
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 5: hard the last fifteen years or so in there with

1493
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 5: their democracy movement to push back on the military's power

1494
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:34,600
Speaker 5: in that country and it's it's just tremendously sad to

1495
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 5: see all of the people who are investing their hopes

1496
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,480
Speaker 5: and dreams in this system and putting.

1497
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 4: Their faith into this system, which is just telling.

1498
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:52,919
Speaker 5: Them over and over again that that faith is misplaced

1499
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 5: and that their votes aren't going to count, and that

1500
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:55,639
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter what you want.

1501
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 4: But you know, the politics Pakistan are volatile.

1502
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:06,640
Speaker 5: The US has is interested in Pakistan, sometimes ignores it

1503
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 5: a lot of the other times. So we'll see, like

1504
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 5: the willingness of so many people to put their names

1505
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 5: on the ballot knowing that there's a good chance that

1506
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 5: they're going to get raided and tortured just for doing that,

1507
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 5: the willingness of so many people to turn out to

1508
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:24,959
Speaker 5: vote is inspiring.

1509
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,439
Speaker 6: At the same time, and without you know, drawing a

1510
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:30,599
Speaker 6: direct comparison, it's interesting you started this block by saying,

1511
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 6: you know, for a taste of what could happen here

1512
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 6: at some point. That's actually a good transition to what

1513
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 6: we're going to be talking with Leefong about, which is

1514
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 6: some sort of censorship here in the United States that

1515
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 6: has happened. It's happening in full public view. He has

1516
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 6: some excellent reporting on it. He testified before Congress just yesterday,

1517
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 6: so we're going to get some snap reaction from Lefong

1518
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 6: on his experience in front of Congress yesterday. Right after this,

1519
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 6: we're joined now by independent journalist Lee Fong, who testified

1520
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 6: just yesterday day before the House Select Committee on Weaponization

1521
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 6: about some of his excellent reporting, which you can and

1522
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 6: should read and follow at lefong dot com. That's the

1523
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 6: link to Lee's substack.

1524
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 3: Lee, thanks for joining us, Hey, thanks for having me, of.

1525
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 6: Course, so we have a clip of you testifying that

1526
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 6: I want to get your thoughts on quickly. Let's roll

1527
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 6: Lea's testimony. This part of Lee's testimony in front of

1528
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:18,799
Speaker 6: the House yesterday.

1529
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:22,520
Speaker 15: More recently, in collaboration with Unheard and Real Clear Investigations

1530
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 15: and with my co author Jack Poulson, I reported that

1531
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:29,719
Speaker 15: Maderna relaunched these efforts to influence vaccine discourse last summer,

1532
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 15: again working with public good projects, Maderna employed the services

1533
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 15: of the artificial intelligence firm talk Walker to monitor vaccine

1534
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 15: related conversations across one hundred and fifty million websites, including

1535
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:44,439
Speaker 15: social media and gaming platforms like Steam. There are many

1536
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 15: other examples in my reporting beyond the Twitter files and

1537
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:50,439
Speaker 15: Maderna documents that show overreach by government and corporate interest

1538
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 15: to stifle free speech. Last month, I revealed documents on

1539
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,600
Speaker 15: the activities of Logically, a British artificial intelligence firm that

1540
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 15: is poised to shape the twenty twenty four election. Is

1541
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 15: important to underscore why the American public should be aware

1542
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 15: of this firm. Logically previously had contracts in the United

1543
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 15: Kingdom to combat misinformation during the pandemic, but like many

1544
01:22:10,439 --> 01:22:13,719
Speaker 15: other firms of this nature, they instead surveilled legitimate forms

1545
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 15: of speech, including thoughtful concerns about pandemic lockdowns. Logically boasted

1546
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 15: of a special partnership with Facebook to automatically suppress and

1547
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 15: label any content they deemed as misinformation, giving the company

1548
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 15: immense influence over content moderation decisions. In my official written

1549
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 15: remarks my testimony, I go into much greater detail about

1550
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:35,320
Speaker 15: my record on these issues. Writing on censorship and surveillance

1551
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:38,799
Speaker 15: of animal rights activists and labor union activists, I've profiled

1552
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,920
Speaker 15: the various private contractors that began by spying on behalf

1553
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 15: of the FBI during the War on Terror, that now

1554
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:49,120
Speaker 15: utilize artificial intelligence to spy on conservative anti vaccine mandate activists.

1555
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 15: More recently, I've reported on organized suppression of peaceful speech

1556
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:54,560
Speaker 15: by pro Palestinian activists.

1557
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 6: So like Matt Tayeb, Michael Schallenberger, Amado Morris, and others.

1558
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,320
Speaker 6: Before you lead, you were peppered by questions, as it's custom,

1559
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 6: by members of the committee.

1560
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about that experience.

1561
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:08,839
Speaker 6: What it was like sort of having your reporting befront

1562
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,240
Speaker 6: and center at a hearing when you know some people

1563
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 6: on one side of the aisle have different.

1564
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 3: Motivations of people on the other side of the aisle.

1565
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:15,559
Speaker 3: What was it like yesterday?

1566
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 15: Well, sure, you know, these committee hearings are a little

1567
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 15: bit substive, a little bit political theater. I used it

1568
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 15: just as an opportunity to showcase my reporting to talk

1569
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 15: about a principle that I hold deer, which is free speech.

1570
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:29,280
Speaker 10: It was a good opportunity.

1571
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 15: I mean, having that additional platform to engage with the

1572
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:35,479
Speaker 15: members was a good experience. And you know, it's not

1573
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:37,679
Speaker 15: every day that you get to talk to a large

1574
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:41,439
Speaker 15: number of Republican lawmakers about Palestinian free speech, about free

1575
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:44,799
Speaker 15: speech on the internet. To criticize the Department of Homeland

1576
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 15: Security in the halls of Congress. You know, I really

1577
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 15: enjoyed it.

1578
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 6: Five years ago, you probably would not have expected that

1579
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 6: Jim Jordan and Republicans would have called you to testify

1580
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:54,799
Speaker 6: in front of Congress.

1581
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 10: No.

1582
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,759
Speaker 15: I mean this term is a little bit cliche sometimes,

1583
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 15: but it is a realignment on these issues. And we

1584
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 15: did get into interesting back and forth about that as

1585
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 15: the Democrats were kind of ignoring the substance of the hearing.

1586
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 15: Every time a Democrat member had the microphone, they would

1587
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:13,920
Speaker 15: just talk about Trump and how Trump would be a

1588
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 15: dictator and how dangerous Trump is, and we need to

1589
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 15: talk about Trump and the election, not talk about free

1590
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 15: speech and social media censorship. And I just kind of

1591
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 15: detected a little bit of cognitive dissonance there, because if

1592
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,479
Speaker 15: you're concerned about an authoritarian president a matter of the party,

1593
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 15: wouldn't you want to dismantle a government and law enforcement

1594
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,639
Speaker 15: apparatus that allows the government to control what we can

1595
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:38,719
Speaker 15: read on social media and in the news.

1596
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 5: Before we get into your most recent piece that is

1597
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 5: I think fascinating on this whole question of censorship, how

1598
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:51,559
Speaker 5: did they respond to your pushback about Palestinian censorship, because

1599
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 5: it has been the most kind of blatant contradiction in there,

1600
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 5: and they're kind of censorship and cancel culture values.

1601
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:01,200
Speaker 4: Well actually for this case.

1602
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:04,040
Speaker 15: Well, look, I think there are probably some fair weather

1603
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,799
Speaker 15: supporters of free speech. You know, it's easy to support

1604
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 15: free speech when your size is being censored. It's hard

1605
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:12,520
Speaker 15: to stand up for your enemies or your political opponents.

1606
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:15,840
Speaker 15: But that's where the real principle lies. But I do

1607
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 15: see a number of the Republican lawmakers kind of alarm

1608
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:20,160
Speaker 15: bells going off in their head when I was talking

1609
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 15: about the issue, talk to about it privately, including about

1610
01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 15: just this general principle of hey, we need free speech

1611
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 15: for everyone. You know, we're in an open society, a

1612
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,400
Speaker 15: free society. We don't have the answers. We don't think

1613
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 15: the government should have all the answers either. We need

1614
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 15: to debate and discuss these issues.

1615
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think because of Trump, Republicans not everyone.

1616
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 6: Again, like they're obviously some fairweather people, but they're getting

1617
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,120
Speaker 6: a taste of how the imperial presidency can be used

1618
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:49,360
Speaker 6: against them. Not I mean, obviously the military and war

1619
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:51,040
Speaker 6: and all that is different questions that's been going on

1620
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 6: for years. But like this new post nine to eleven

1621
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:54,760
Speaker 6: security state, which is.

1622
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,520
Speaker 3: You're reporting on DHS, you're reporting.

1623
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 6: Anstucts, you're reporting on all of these things that are

1624
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:01,839
Speaker 6: under the umbrella of the security State essentially being weaponized

1625
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:03,560
Speaker 6: in elections, which is fascinating.

1626
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,400
Speaker 15: Look, it wasn't that long ago when Democrats were leading

1627
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 15: the charge against the Department of Homeland Security and expansion

1628
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 15: of the Security State, saying that, you know, the Bush

1629
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 15: administration will exploit this new agency created after nine to

1630
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 15: eleven to sway elections and suppress our civil liberties. Now

1631
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,320
Speaker 15: the biggest cheerleaders for the expansion of the DHS are

1632
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 15: the Democrats. I mean, that's just kind of unfortunately how

1633
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 15: polarization works here in Washington.

1634
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,400
Speaker 5: And so let's get into this new reporting, kind of

1635
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:30,879
Speaker 5: a new Twitter files report that you put up earlier

1636
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 5: this week. It's such a funny, isn't the word? But

1637
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 5: it's also kind of funny. So New York Times reporter

1638
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 5: read Epstein. We can set the stage here. So it's

1639
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 5: early in the morning of the election in twenty twenty,

1640
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 5: and we're all waiting for Wisconsin's votes to come in,

1641
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:56,040
Speaker 5: and he tweets out that do I have the exact

1642
01:26:56,040 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 5: tweet here? Says he says Green Bay's absentee ballot results

1643
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 5: are being delayed because one of the vote counting machines

1644
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,720
Speaker 5: ran out of ink and an elections official had to

1645
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 5: return to city hall to get more. Then an election

1646
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:14,439
Speaker 5: official responds, that's not true, they don't use inc and

1647
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 5: then the main election official account retweets that, and then

1648
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:21,920
Speaker 5: you have a whole kind of pile on against redes

1649
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 5: of all of these people saying this is misinformation, which

1650
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 5: is is Twitter.

1651
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 4: It's fine, let him hash.

1652
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 5: It out, but then you have the kind of government

1653
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:34,879
Speaker 5: hall monitors flag it for.

1654
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 4: Twitter itself.

1655
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 5: So pick up the story from there, because that, to

1656
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:42,600
Speaker 5: me is where it gets deeply disturbing.

1657
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean, this should be an innocuous tweet. It's

1658
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:49,799
Speaker 15: a reporter making an observation about the political process, something

1659
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,800
Speaker 15: that he had seen firsthand, and rather than it just

1660
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:57,759
Speaker 15: being a benign tweet, it set off alarm bells in Washington.

1661
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 15: Almost as soon as these local Wisconsin and election officials

1662
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 15: disputed the accuracy of this tweeteah like three in the morning,

1663
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:06,000
Speaker 15: right three in the morning, four in the morning, something

1664
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:09,560
Speaker 15: like that. It gets forwarded along to the Department of

1665
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 15: Homeland Security top Countering Foreign influence official at the agency

1666
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 15: forwards it along to Twitter in San Francisco and starts

1667
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 15: pressuring the tech company to take action. Now, of course,

1668
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 15: the DHS says, you know, we never force these tech

1669
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 15: companies to do anything. We don't censor speech, we don't

1670
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:30,679
Speaker 15: police speech. But they say take action, and then Twitter says,

1671
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:34,600
Speaker 15: we're escalating. DHS responds, thank you. So it's clear that

1672
01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:37,719
Speaker 15: they wanted a certain type of action. And what action

1673
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 15: did they take. They censored the tweet. The tweet was

1674
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 15: going viral and it was receiving It had about three

1675
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 15: thousand retweets initially. Once Twitter took action escalated the tweet,

1676
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 15: those retweets disappeared. Anyone who quote tweeted it, that tweet poof,

1677
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 15: it's gone vanished. It still carries a warning label now

1678
01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 15: today if you try to read it, it says warning misinformation.

1679
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 10: It has a warning label.

1680
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 15: You still can't quote tweet it, you can't interact with it,

1681
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 15: you can't comment on it.

1682
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 10: It's still shadow band.

1683
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,479
Speaker 15: I think is the right term for this, because it's

1684
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:11,439
Speaker 15: it didn't get deleted, but it's all the sharing function,

1685
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 15: the you know, all the different type of tags that

1686
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 15: get attached to it. To block its visibility. Are there,

1687
01:29:17,720 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 15: and here's the rub. The tweet looks accurate.

1688
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us about this.

1689
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 5: This is the crazy part because that whole process is wrong, period.

1690
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 5: Even if Reid was wrong right, like to me, then okay,

1691
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:32,320
Speaker 5: DHS and the elections will reach out to read and

1692
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 5: say you're wrong, right, could correct it. Like I've said

1693
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 5: incorrect things before, and I hear from the people who

1694
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,519
Speaker 5: I report it on and they're like, that's wrong. I'm like,

1695
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:43,720
Speaker 5: and they prove it's wrong, and I correct it like

1696
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:44,960
Speaker 5: that and that's fine.

1697
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:46,720
Speaker 4: Like that's how it goes, That's how it should go.

1698
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 5: But it turns out go ahead it Actually he was

1699
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:51,599
Speaker 5: not wrong necessarily right.

1700
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:56,920
Speaker 15: The local election clerk who disputed the tweet was acting

1701
01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 15: under the assumption that Green Bay was only using the

1702
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 15: DS two hundred machine, which does not use ink, So

1703
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 15: she said it's impossible, and that's normally the case. But

1704
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 15: because it was twenty twenty and Wisconsin was expecting higher

1705
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 15: than usual turnout, they leased an additional vote counting machine

1706
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:18,240
Speaker 15: that does require ink that is attached to an external printer,

1707
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 15: and there were some ink issues that night. So not

1708
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:26,720
Speaker 15: only was the allegation based on a false assumption or misunderstanding.

1709
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 15: You know, they didn't verify, they didn't do any of

1710
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 15: the kind of basics when you're engaging any type of

1711
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 15: media work like this, and especially sensitive media work. And

1712
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,839
Speaker 15: I think it just this issue reflects the larger problem

1713
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 15: of this censorship regime. You do have the case of

1714
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 15: and you know, I've documented many cases of this on

1715
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 15: my substack and so of others from the Twitter files,

1716
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 15: that there are politically motivated sensors out there, people who

1717
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:56,519
Speaker 15: have a partisan or ideological bias. But there's also just

1718
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,800
Speaker 15: the Hey, if you're hastily censoring people without doing any

1719
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,759
Speaker 15: of your own fact checking, you're just taking the whatever

1720
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:07,519
Speaker 15: kind of data is given to you by a government official,

1721
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:09,719
Speaker 15: and you assume that that's the truth handed down from God,

1722
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:10,799
Speaker 15: You're going to get it wrong.

1723
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 10: You're going to end up censoring truthful information.

1724
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:16,040
Speaker 15: And I think the other big kind of impact of

1725
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:19,880
Speaker 15: this is that Wisconsin, a lot of people did not

1726
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 15: trust the integrity of the ballot there, and so when

1727
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,600
Speaker 15: you have the government censoring true information right about the

1728
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 15: vote count, that doesn't increase trust in our elections. That

1729
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 15: really contributes to the erosion of trust, because who do

1730
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 15: you trust here. If the government's saying, hey, we've got

1731
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 15: to protect the integrity of this vote, we've got to

1732
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 15: make sure there's no misinformation that lies to people, and

1733
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 15: then they're contributing to the lies.

1734
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 10: Who do you trust here?

1735
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,000
Speaker 6: And that's why you have the free press in this ecosystem,

1736
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,320
Speaker 6: so that there can be some modicum of trust and

1737
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 6: there can be some checks and balances. And you've reported

1738
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 6: on this with Maderna too. Can you get into and

1739
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:55,280
Speaker 6: a lot of actually other cases, can you get into

1740
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 6: that distinction between outright censorship and suppression, which is something

1741
01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 6: that the government and tack lean heavily on. Let's say

1742
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:04,640
Speaker 6: this is not where where you can still find the information.

1743
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 6: You could still read the New York Posts Hunter Biden

1744
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 6: laptop story. It was just you know, algorithmically suppressed or whatever.

1745
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 6: Can you talk a little bit about how they rely

1746
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,839
Speaker 6: on that distinction and weaponize really that distinction to defend themselves.

1747
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 5: And before you answer, I just want to flag and

1748
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:22,160
Speaker 5: maybe we can put this up on post. But yeah,

1749
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 5: the tweet today reads some or all of the content

1750
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 5: shared in this post is disputed and might be misleading

1751
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 5: about an election or other civic process. You can learn

1752
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 5: click to learn more, or if you're a rebel, you

1753
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 5: can click view.

1754
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:42,400
Speaker 4: Whoah, and there's the tweet after you click view.

1755
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,360
Speaker 10: It's like an nsf W tag, but just for an

1756
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 10: election report from the New York Times. Report five.

1757
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 4: It says it has five reposts.

1758
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like the parental advisory content to talk altum.

1759
01:32:54,479 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly, watch out kids.

1760
01:32:58,040 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 15: But yeah, you know, I'm just talking about this kind

1761
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 15: of broader issue of censorship. You know, my reporting differs

1762
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 15: a little bit from some of the other Twitter follows journalists.

1763
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 15: You know, I also took a focus on private sector influence,

1764
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:13,919
Speaker 15: and you know that opens up some different legal questions.

1765
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:19,000
Speaker 15: Perhaps it's totally legal for one oil company or pharmaceutical

1766
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 15: company to collaborate with the private platforms. It's to tell

1767
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 15: you what you can read and not read about their

1768
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:26,760
Speaker 15: products or about the policies that affect them. But we

1769
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,880
Speaker 15: live in a free society, or we I hope we

1770
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 15: live in a free society, and we need to have

1771
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:33,920
Speaker 15: debates around this topic. And a lot of the censorship

1772
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 15: did not just come from the government. It came from

1773
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 15: companies like Maderna, Pfizer, funding lobby funded funding lobbyists who

1774
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:47,120
Speaker 15: worked with NGOs who were helping craft the content moderation

1775
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 15: policies at Twitter, giving them actual lists of accounts to

1776
01:33:50,240 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 15: amplify and de amplify. In some cases, those accounts that

1777
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 15: they were targeting to be de amplified ended up getting banned.

1778
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,919
Speaker 15: A few of these accounts did, uh, you know, promote

1779
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 15: messages about vaccines that were not true, messages about microchips.

1780
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:10,200
Speaker 15: But some of them promoted messages that are legitimate areas

1781
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 15: for public policy debate, people criticizing the idea around vaccine passports.

1782
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 15: You know, this idea that the only way you could

1783
01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:18,919
Speaker 15: engage in commerce, go to a restaurant, have a business,

1784
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:22,439
Speaker 15: was to show your vaccinated status. They took tweets like

1785
01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,320
Speaker 15: that and from groups that were funded by Big Pharma

1786
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:30,559
Speaker 15: targeted those messages, so that that's just another form of censorship. Again,

1787
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 15: the legal area is different because it's not the government,

1788
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 15: but still it has the same impact, and it's.

1789
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:37,840
Speaker 6: They're funded so heavily by the government that it's hard

1790
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 6: to divorce.

1791
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:42,320
Speaker 15: Sure true, I mean Maderna taking their basic signs from

1792
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:45,680
Speaker 15: NIH and big funding from Operation Warp Speed. What is like,

1793
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 15: what is the distinction between government and corporation.

1794
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 5: Here right while, I while I've got you here, I'm curious,

1795
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:53,320
Speaker 5: how's the how's the substack life?

1796
01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 4: How are things going?

1797
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:57,479
Speaker 5: People should I'm a subscriber to the subtack. Everybody should

1798
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,400
Speaker 5: should sign up. Lefong dot co, calmly fun, got substack

1799
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 5: dot com.

1800
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:06,200
Speaker 13: We'll get you there, you microchip Ryan, But how are

1801
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,719
Speaker 13: how are you liking it compared to you know, because

1802
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 13: the rest of your career has been in newsrooms for

1803
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 13: the like various newsrooms.

1804
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 4: Including The Intercept for a long time. Yeah, what's it?

1805
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:17,839
Speaker 4: What's it like being out as an independent reporter.

1806
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 15: I'm still figuring out my path, you know. I launched

1807
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:24,040
Speaker 15: the Subseact last April, and you know, just personally, it's

1808
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:24,559
Speaker 15: been a journey.

1809
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:24,720
Speaker 10: You know.

1810
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 15: I kind of started out at a more partisan left

1811
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:32,679
Speaker 15: leaning site, sponsored Progress, sponsored by the Center for American Progress,

1812
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:35,400
Speaker 15: and that didn't work out because I kept clashing with

1813
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:37,599
Speaker 15: the editors and the people of the think tank, because

1814
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:39,519
Speaker 15: I wanted to criticize the Democratic Party. I wanted to

1815
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 15: criticize and report on corporate interests that we're funding the

1816
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:46,360
Speaker 15: Center for American Progress.

1817
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 4: And yeah, no that's not worry.

1818
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:48,799
Speaker 10: Yeah, that didn't work.

1819
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 15: Out, and I joined a number of uh more progressive

1820
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 15: left magazines and outlets, and you know, they have their

1821
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 15: own kind of editorial freedom issues. You know, because of

1822
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 15: the polarization in Washington, a lot of right wing, right

1823
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 15: leaning outlets, You've got to be a good foot soldier

1824
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:09,240
Speaker 15: in those ideological trenches. Same on the left, and you know,

1825
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:11,439
Speaker 15: I just have to be my own man and be

1826
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:13,040
Speaker 15: my own journalist, and I want to be able to

1827
01:36:13,040 --> 01:36:15,599
Speaker 15: call out wrongdoing, whether it's on the left, the right,

1828
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:20,280
Speaker 15: or the center. It's difficult to report on groups like

1829
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 15: antifile with the extreme elements of the Abolish the Police movement.

1830
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 15: If you're on the progressive left and you know, serving

1831
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 15: the public interest, I have to call attention to those

1832
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:32,719
Speaker 15: issues as well. So I like subsect for the editorial freedom.

1833
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:34,720
Speaker 15: I do miss working in a team, though, I like

1834
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:37,599
Speaker 15: working with editors and other journalists. I've brought in some

1835
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 15: friends to help me with some stories. I worked with

1836
01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:43,639
Speaker 15: my friend Jack Paulson on a big story on efforts

1837
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 15: to suppress and cancel people trying to talk about Palestinian

1838
01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 15: human rights.

1839
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 10: So yeah, it's a mix.

1840
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:53,160
Speaker 15: But if you know, really enjoying it, and if your

1841
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 15: viewers have an opportunity to subscribe, welcome their subscription.

1842
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:02,800
Speaker 5: How have the readers repected to the Palestinian coverage Because

1843
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:07,280
Speaker 5: Glenn Greenwald, another of our former colleagues, has talked publicly

1844
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:10,640
Speaker 5: about how a lot of people who liked his criticism

1845
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 5: of kind of canceled culture and censorship previous to October seventh,

1846
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 5: all of a sudden found him to be problematic and

1847
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 5: we're leaving.

1848
01:37:22,280 --> 01:37:22,679
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1849
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:27,680
Speaker 15: No, I did lose a few subscribers writing about Palestinian

1850
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:31,760
Speaker 15: human rights and free expression. I've lost readers pretty much

1851
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 15: with every story. You know, you gained, someone lose them.

1852
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,040
Speaker 15: And I actually, to the credit of my subscribers and

1853
01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:39,719
Speaker 15: to my readers, a few people who said I'm quitting,

1854
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 15: I'm not subscribing to you anymore because you kind of

1855
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:44,120
Speaker 15: wrote this story. A lot of them came back and

1856
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:46,600
Speaker 15: I love your journalism and never mind. I changed my

1857
01:37:46,640 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 15: mind and I've communicated with it. You know, sub sex

1858
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 15: is a great platform because it really connects you more

1859
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 15: with the reader, and I enjoy the back and forth.

1860
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:54,960
Speaker 15: I don't know if you know I'm not the arbiter

1861
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 15: of truth. You know, I'm trying to do my best

1862
01:37:57,479 --> 01:37:59,280
Speaker 15: to find the facts and put it in context and

1863
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:02,160
Speaker 15: do the reporting and deliver it to the reader. But

1864
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 15: you never know, everyone has blind spots, and I enjoy

1865
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:09,320
Speaker 15: communicating with the reader, communicating with people from different viewpoints,

1866
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:11,800
Speaker 15: and yeah, it's been a really good experience on a.

1867
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:14,360
Speaker 3: Scale of one to ten. Rank Ryan as an editor.

1868
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:19,839
Speaker 6: Kidding, One last question for you is are you still

1869
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:22,920
Speaker 6: picking apart Twitter file stuff? You're still going through those documents.

1870
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:25,160
Speaker 15: Yeah, I've got a few others that I'd like to

1871
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:28,320
Speaker 15: release later this year and you know, combining them with

1872
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 15: other documents. The one thing that I found interesting is that,

1873
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:34,920
Speaker 15: you know, recently, I've been looking at some of these

1874
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:38,439
Speaker 15: firms in Europe and there's new scrutiny there because in

1875
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 15: Europe and the UK there are stronger data laws kind

1876
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:45,559
Speaker 15: of like our Freedom of Information Act requests, but you

1877
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 15: can request your own data. So for people across the

1878
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:52,600
Speaker 15: ideological spectrum, mostly on the right, they've been making requests

1879
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 15: to their government, to private sector firms to find out

1880
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:57,679
Speaker 15: if faith and censored, they've been canceled, and so they're

1881
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:01,679
Speaker 15: doing their own kind of citizen journalist based on these

1882
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:03,960
Speaker 15: data laws that we don't have so much in the US.

1883
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 11: Now.

1884
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,760
Speaker 15: California has a mini version of this, and I've been

1885
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 15: getting into that a little bit and it's been super interesting.

1886
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:11,679
Speaker 6: That sounds great, well, all the more reason to subscribe

1887
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:13,519
Speaker 6: at Lee Fung dot com.

1888
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 3: Lee, thank you so much for joining.

1889
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 10: Us, Thanks for having me. Of course, we're going to

1890
01:39:16,479 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 10: wrap the show for now.

1891
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 5: We're going to interview Congressman Greg Kasar about the border bill,

1892
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:24,799
Speaker 5: about Pakistan elections, about whatever else we want to get into,

1893
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,479
Speaker 5: but that'll come after the show. We'll post it at

1894
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:30,679
Speaker 5: YouTube and whatever else we post stuff. But otherwise, thank

1895
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:32,519
Speaker 5: you Lee for joining us, and yeah, we'll see you

1896
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 5: next week.