1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Welcome the Trillions. I'm Joel Weber and I'm Eric belchernas Eric. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: In addition to having a day job for Bloomberg Intelligence 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: and co hosting Trillions with me, you also have another 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: side of your career, which I hope comes up in 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: all your reviews, which is the TV show on Bloomberg 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: TV called ETFIQ. Yeah. I began about the same time 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: as Trillions. Actually I think it did. There was a 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: first iteration like pre COVID with Scarlett fu who we 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: did a show with her, I think maybe a year 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: and a half in and then it shut down. It 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: went dark for like a year and a half. They 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: shut all the half an hour shows down that were specialty. 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: They slowly started them back up after we came back 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: to the office, and so when they were looking to 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: redo it, there was some shifts in personnel, and so 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: they made a new iteration of etf i Q with 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Matt Miller, Katie Greyfield and myself, and I'm Matt and 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Katier are sort of like the main anchors. I'm sort 19 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: of like the weatherman or the commentary guy. I do 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: some special work at the beginning of a couple of 21 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: segments and sort of provide. I ask a few questions, 22 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: but I see myself more like a specialist and they're 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: sort of more generalist. And I think it's a goocambo. 24 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: And the show's every Monday at one pm. It's a 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: half an hour by Fast Live. Yeah. Live TV is interesting. 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean, unlike this, where I can mess up and 27 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: we can edit out. You have to just roll through 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: and keep talking. Special shout out to Magnus Hendrickson, who's 29 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: our producer and has been our producer of Trillions for 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: a while. We kept them busy with this episode because 31 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: there's a fair amount of better thing. Thanks Magnus, and 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: I just want to speak in the shout outs. Obviously, 33 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: the three of us are on the air, we bring 34 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: on guests, but behind the scenes, the other people who 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: are you know, spend a lot of their time working 36 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: on the show to Mareaci Ratika Gupta, Maureen Lawler, Kieran 37 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Buchanan and Alex Soto. And then sometimes we'll have if 38 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: some one of us is out, like a h Basket 39 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: will fill in or Kaylee lines. So it's a show 40 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: where a lot of people work on it every week, 41 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: and I'm sure they do many other things. This is 42 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: just one part of their job. There's only half an 43 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: hour show, but we do our best to put in 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, good guests, good topics, and also a little 45 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: bit of improvisation. We don't over prepare. I think in 46 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: the first Iteration show, I found myself really over preparing. 47 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: I wrote the whole script out. I think we did 48 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: that this podcast. We would overscript at the beginning. Now 49 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: I've learned to trust my instincts and a little have 50 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: more improv and let it feel a little more organic. 51 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: And I think we've we've done a good job at that. 52 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, so what are we gonna hear today 53 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: on Trillions? So we're gonna bring on Matt Miller and 54 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: Katie And I've basically teed up about six clips that 55 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: I think sort of represent some topics and guests about 56 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: the show and also some of the quirks of Katie 57 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: and Matt that I think come across. And you know, 58 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: we're just sort of like some of the highlights basically 59 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: from the first year. Some big names in here. Yeah, 60 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: you know, we get some big names, and then I 61 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: also think we get names that are big names later, 62 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: Like I remember we had Kathy Wood before the run 63 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: of all of Kathy Woods ETFs. Yeah, totally. I mean 64 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: I used to when we first had et F i 65 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: Q I would try to promote it internally. Is that 66 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: this show's really not just about ETFs. It's tomorrow's stars today, 67 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: sort of like MTV's one hundred niney minutes or hundred 68 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: twenty minutes where you'd go and watch Sunday Night, like 69 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, eleven PM, and you'd see like you'd see 70 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: like Nirvana before they went mainstream. I feel as though 71 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: we're we're getting were early because a lot of ETF 72 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: fishers who put out ETFs get some assets. That's where 73 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: the money's going. And these people are going to be 74 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: the stars of tomorrow in a lot of cases. But 75 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: we still will always sometimes get a current star. But 76 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: Kathy's case, I think she's a star who was on 77 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: the ETF show early. Perth Tolls another one. There are 78 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: definitely some people we get early and they become they 79 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: branch out then then you see them all over Bloomberg 80 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: TV and all the shows. Okay, joining us on this episode, 81 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: we've got Matt Miller of Bloomberg TV, along with Katie Greifield, 82 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: who's a regular on Trillions and a reporter with Bloomberg News, 83 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: this time on trillions. Highlights of Year one from ETF 84 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: Katy Matt, welcome back to trains. Thank you, thrilled of 85 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: you here. It's my first time. Actually, oh I have 86 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: been here many times. You lucky, long overdue. I've been 87 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: a long time listener, so thank you for great you 88 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: as a first time caller, Eric, How do you want 89 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: to do this? I pulled five or six clips that 90 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: I think we're kind of highlights of the year, might 91 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: get Katie and Matt talking, So we can start with 92 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: the first one if you want. Okay, here we go. 93 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: So the first clip is from the very first guest 94 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: on the very first show. Can you guys remember who 95 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: that was? Holly Farm said yes, So here here she 96 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: is talking about active ets, which has become a huge 97 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: issue for us. In a theme in the show where 98 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: we look at our core investor base, there are trillions 99 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: of dollars of assets still in actively managed solutions that 100 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: haven't moved to index. So I think what that tells 101 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: me is there's a clear space for active in ETFs 102 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: at the core and that is squarely where we think 103 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: our investors and our clients will use our products. She 104 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: was not wrong, right. I'd say, if there's one ETF 105 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: that we've talked about the most other than Spy all 106 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: year long, it's ben jepy. Am I wrong about that 107 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: Jetpy definitely because it took in so much money. Since 108 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: it's like the new arc in terms of flows, Can 109 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: I just toot our own horns for a little bit. 110 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: The fact that we had Capital group on like immediately 111 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: after they launched their first ETFs, and the fact that 112 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: we were focused on active I mean, to Matt's point, 113 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: we've been talking about it for a year straight, and 114 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Holly really put it very well that you 115 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: have trillions of dollars in active funds that haven't made 116 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: their way to ETFs yet, and that's exactly what we've 117 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: seen over the past year. It was prescient for sure. 118 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: I thought active now takes in like thirty forty percent 119 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: of the flows and they make up four percent of 120 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: the assets. Huge for now. Yeah, I was gonna say, 121 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: does that continue? Do you think that continues? Yeah, because 122 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: there's still so many trillions and active mutual funds. A 123 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: lot of it's just the migration over, it's not new money. 124 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: That's a little bit of the behind the scenes. It's 125 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: not like somebody's waking up. Oh give me active. I 126 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: think a lot of it's people who were in active 127 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: mutual funds, like the ETF rapper better you know the 128 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: other thing. I just want to say, we're gonna have 129 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: a little This can be a little bit of a 130 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: rivalry here. We've got two sides of Eric here, the 131 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: et more. Yeah, to be fair, our show, to be fair, 132 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: our show is shorter and we are shallower. Yeah. Straight, 133 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: We don't get extremely shallow people. But there's something about 134 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: live TV that just gets the blood flow. And there's 135 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: something special about you love adrenaline. Yeah, you love live television. 136 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: But you can't you definitely can't go as deep. Yeah here, 137 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: you can also make mistakes here and like just edit 138 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: it out like you just basically have to move on 139 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: on TV, like employee Magnus as our producer. Okay, Clip two, Okay, 140 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: clip two is this is Matt This is this first 141 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: C block guest where we drilled down into an ETF 142 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: this you know who that was Katie well Hershey, wow, 143 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: photographic memory over here. Okay, that was like a big deal. 144 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: I had a photographic memory twenty years ago. You know, 145 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: so Will Hershey was talking about met V and this 146 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: is a great clip because sometimes on the show, I'll 147 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: kind of chat with Matt ahead of time before that 148 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: we go to air, and I'll just give him some 149 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: like inside Baseball and he'll go right on air with it. 150 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: So I told him about the MeTV ticker sale to 151 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, and Will did not want this brought up. 152 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: So go ahead, you know, let me soften you up 153 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: with a few questions first and then hit you at 154 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: the hard one. But I'll just go ahead and ask 155 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: you sold the ticker Meta to Mark Zuckerberg. I guess 156 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: he called you up and said, will you know I'll 157 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: give you like your own Caribbean island? What did you 158 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: get for that? You know, I'm actually probably gonna plead 159 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: the fifth on that one. What I will say is 160 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: changing from Meta to met V I think eliminated some 161 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: of the confusion in the market. When Facebook changed their 162 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: name to Meta, that was truly a validation of the 163 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: theme for us, and we're seeing investors play with their money. 164 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: Wait a sophomone up there. I was going to but 165 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: I felt like, you know, we only have a half hour, 166 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: and if you take out commercial breaks, it's more like 167 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: twenty two minutes. So why beat around the bush right 168 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: right to the jugular exactly. So he got his own 169 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: G five fifty now or G six fifties something like. 170 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: He got his own private jet for selling Mark Zuckerberg 171 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: the meta ticker. And what's great about that is he 172 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: had his own canned answer. But Matt puts so much 173 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: of what people are really thinking in the question that 174 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: everything is out there now. Because you knew Will wasn't 175 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: going to really do much with that, he said his 176 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: little thing and then and wanted to go away. I 177 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: remember after that happened, when it was announced they were 178 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: actually changing the ticker, so many people asked me for 179 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: a number. Oh how much did he get? We never 180 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: quite got it out of him, Do you know Eric? 181 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: I think Eric knows. There were rumors. I think we're 182 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five million. I don't know if that's what 183 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: I thought as well. I heard twenty five million. You 184 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: can buy an island with that, right somewhere. I think 185 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: you can buy a jet with that, and then you 186 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: can just go to whichever island. You have to have 187 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: multiple bank accounts. He's still working though, Like so, I 188 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: don't know, if I got twenty five million, I might 189 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: just leave the ends with the two hundred and fifty 190 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: thousand dollars FDIC insurance limit. You'd have to open a 191 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: ton of bank accounts. It still just makes me astounded 192 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: that Mark was willing to change his name, the name 193 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: of the company to Meta Like it was a big step. 194 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: He was so crazy and bold um and you know, 195 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: we'll see how that stake. Maybe a decade or earlier, 196 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, it was like, everybody's gonna say, 197 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: return to office now, stop doing this thing called the metaverse. Yeah, 198 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: well it's gonna be a little bit ironic if met 199 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: if Meta orders everyone back to the office and they're like, 200 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: why just to be in the Horizonville with a torso, yeah, 201 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: all of us could be doing this right now, someone said, 202 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,359 Speaker 1: Someone asked me, what was the bigger mistake Mark Stuckerberg 203 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: changing the whole company and betting on Metaverse, or Tom 204 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: Brady coming back to play another year with the Bucks 205 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and kind of like ruining his marriage. To Zuck's credit, 206 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: he changed the conversation he did not like the one 207 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: that they were having about his company. Absolutely, he created 208 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: a whole new I think Tom Brady Trumps very Trumpish 209 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: of him, and Brady hasn't quite learned that lesson yet. 210 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: But the ETF side of this was from the moment 211 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: that it happened, we are like, that's that's gonna be awesome. Yeah, 212 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: that's so good on you for asking it about it, 213 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: Matt Okay number three sometimes a big name. Yeah, we 214 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: get some big names sometimes. Kathy Wood, whom you know, 215 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: has had a rough year, but she's always interesting. She's 216 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: just good TV because she says a lot. She's just 217 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: the people who are at the top of the companies 218 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: are always the best interviews because they don't really they're 219 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: not in the middle. They don't really care what their 220 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: bosses think because they are the boss, right, So Kathy's 221 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: very open. We asked her about she says her funds 222 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: are inherently ESG. That's a huge theme on the show, 223 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: and we asked her whether she agrees with Elon that 224 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: ESG is outrageous scam. Sort of an interesting wedge question 225 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: that characterization of ESG. What I've always said when people 226 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: have asked us about our our portfolios, I've always said 227 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: they are intrinsically good for the environment, socially good, and 228 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, we have a scoring system around government, so 229 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: we certainly, we certainly are focused on doing the right thing, 230 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: which is what I think ESG is all about. I 231 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: think it got way out of hand and there was 232 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: a lot of slapping lipstick on a pig, and you know, 233 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: basically Annie portfolio being kind of promoted as ESG all right, Well, 234 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: to some extent she was right. She was kind of 235 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: proved out or Elon Musk I should say, was right 236 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: by msdi's recent move. Right. Yeah, I've always been BULLISHESG metrics. 237 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: If you're analyzing a company or an active manager, why 238 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: not get more data that's going to be a huge area, 239 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: packaging it into a fund and like making your banking, 240 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: your retirement on it, your kids education. I'll always skeptical 241 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: of that. And it's trying to make something that's subjective 242 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: objective and it's very difficult to do that. So ESG 243 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: funds barish, ESG metrics bullish for me. Yeah, I mean 244 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: it's just such a broad umbrella. Someone's going to be upset. 245 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: But ESG is I think probably come up on every show, right, 246 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: oh yeah about its every show. But the thing the 247 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: thing is, I think people invested on principles long before 248 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: ESG was around. But you're very smart to point out 249 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: that it's subjective, right, and what the taxonomy is trying 250 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: to do is turn it into an objective thing, and 251 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: I think they've failed pretty miserably at least thus far. 252 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: Speaking of which, speaking your take on any of these things, Joe, 253 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: I have no takes for this one. This is all 254 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: this is you guys. Well, I do you think we 255 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: talked about ESG a lot on trillions? I think you're 256 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: the way you just described it, Eric, I think is 257 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: interesting because I don't think that's come through the in 258 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: the trillion segments that we've done, that the metrics you're 259 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: interested in, and that your your pro data just not 260 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: maybe more accuri Yeah, because ESGTF inherently wants to take 261 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: over your core because why would you put five percent 262 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: into an ESG fund, Because then you're still on SPY, 263 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: which has all the bad stocks, right, So you kind 264 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: of have to go all in if you're going to 265 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: be ESG, and that's I don't know, that's that's basically 266 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: betting all your money on a more expensive active approach, 267 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: which again you can underperform. And that's what people saw 268 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: in the past eighteen months. That's I've just been barished 269 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, everything else I kind of get so 270 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: interesting way to articulate it. Okay, so good transition here, 271 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: because this next guest made a ton of noise in 272 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: the ETF space and then he went ahead and like 273 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: declared himself a presidential potential. Yeah. This is vevek Roumswamy 274 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: who started Strive And as we interviewed him over we 275 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: had him on Trillions, we had him on the show, 276 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: you could see he was just getting himself into this 277 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: political sort of communication and I'm not surprised. It just 278 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: evolved him going, you know what, screw at ETFs aren't enough. 279 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm running for presidents. So signs were there, so yeah, 280 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, logical transition. It could have been the endgame 281 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: from the beginning. Well, but Nature Racing are talking about 282 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: how like this is like ETF marketing to a whole 283 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: nother level because he's going to be able to maybe 284 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: like because the ETFs match what he's saying on the 285 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: presidential trail. Anyway, Matt had a really cool set up 286 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: for a question to Vevec, and Vevec, I gotta say, 287 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: is a very good communicator regardless if you agree or not, 288 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: you're focused vic on making money, right, This is what 289 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: investors want to do. I think of it like Michael 290 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: Jordan in that great documentary said, I just didn't want 291 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: to focus on politics. I was focused on winning basketball games. 292 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: There are athletes who focus on politics and they don't 293 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: necessarily put up as many points on the board as 294 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: those who focus on what they're doing, what they're there for. 295 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: And that's what you want to really bring out here. 296 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: You want to sort of rebirth capitalism into the investment 297 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: space exactly, and starting with the US energy sector, picking 298 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: the one sector to that I think has been most 299 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: economically damaged by these politicized demands coming from large capital 300 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: owners and shareholders. And so our message is really simple. 301 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: If you're an oil company, be a great oil company. 302 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: If you're a natural gas company, be a great natural 303 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: gas company. And if you're an alternative energy company, be 304 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: a great alternative energy company. But don't mendate oil company 305 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: needs to stop being oil companies, which is what the 306 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: likes of black Rock, State Street and Vanguard have done. Now, 307 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: I will say Matt didn't exactly ask a question there. 308 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to sell his ETF for him re 309 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: listening to that. I wish I could shorten that intro 310 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: because and and and end your statement with the question 311 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: instead of also comparing him to Jordan. I don't know 312 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: that that was right. Well, it lives on in chiliance forever. Now. Well, 313 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: I recently watched Last Dance again with my twelve year old, 314 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: and I noticed that Jordan had to account for that 315 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: whole Republicans buy sneakers too, and that's sort of what 316 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: he said. He's like, I'm just busy playing basketball. I 317 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: just didn't really want to get into that arena. So 318 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: I think that's what your question was focused on. But 319 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: he because he was trying to defend that he wasn't 320 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: anti EESG. He was just provaci. We called it the 321 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: anti woke ETF and he didn't like that, or at 322 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: least he didn't want us to frame it that way, 323 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: or at least he wanted to push back against framing 324 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: it that way. I think, though, that he misses an 325 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: important point, which is that sometimes companies need to pivot. 326 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes you're an oil producer and then you 327 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: realize you should be a battery maker. Maybe that's too 328 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: much of a pivot, but you get my point right, 329 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: and his theory or his investment strategy doesn't really allow 330 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: for that. Well, I think his point, like if you 331 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: think we had him on around the launch of the 332 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: Strive US Energy ETF, which tracks I shares is Energy ETF, 333 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: and his whole point was these companies need to drill 334 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: more and fracmore, basically making the point that they're not. 335 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: It's not that they're pivoting, which to your point, some 336 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: companies need to do. It's just they're straying away from 337 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do and not even channeling that 338 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: energy into something productive. He's concerned about the regulation, but 339 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: sometimes these companies decide not to drill more in fracmore 340 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: because it's not economically expedient to do so. Right, If 341 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: they see a downturn coming, if they see a drop 342 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: in demand, they're naturally going to pull back on investment. 343 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: So there's a difference between making the right decision for 344 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: your shareholders and being forced to do something by But 345 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: this taps into this. ETF doesn't have hardly any assets, 346 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: like VTI alone takes in more than their whole company 347 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: every day. But VTI, what can you say, it's the 348 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: total market. So this also talks about with TV some 349 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: things play well that tap into debates and conversations that 350 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of assets, like ESG versus Vanguard. 351 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: You know, we cover Vanguard to a degree, but asset wise, 352 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: we should cover them for a third of the show, 353 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: but we don't. We give more time to some of 354 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: this other stuff that's new or innovative or debatable. By 355 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: the way, don't vevex ETFs mimic existing gigantic products that 356 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: are already in the market, except for they have a 357 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: much higher expense ratio. So Strive wants to charge a 358 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: lot more money for something that's very similar to something 359 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: that Vanguard gives away for free. Close but the fees 360 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: are the same, but they're there. Yeah, the fees are 361 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: the same. To his credit, and then they just say 362 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: we're going to erase that part mat cut That also 363 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: also probably a better ticker. Um, but yeah, speaks to uh, 364 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: there's some interesting takeaways in that one. Okay, next, Yeah, Next, 365 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: we have nature Acy, who's a friend of the show, 366 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: you know, a great guy. He was on. And we 367 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: have advisors on the A block. These are people who 368 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: invest and actually put money to work. That's what our 369 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: A block's about he talks about a one trillion prediction, 370 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: and this also Katie's reaction to his answer. Katie's got 371 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: the best reactions and she cracks me up constantly. And 372 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: I think this clip sort of shows that because the 373 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: first US listed ETF, the Spider SNP five hundred ETF, 374 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: turns thirty years old next month, and from my perspective, 375 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: it's pretty remarkable that ETFs have now been around for 376 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: three decades, yet the industry is still accelerating, still growing, 377 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: Which gets to my first prediction, which is that I 378 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: believe ETF inflows will surpass one trillion in twenty twenty three. 379 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: So we knocked on the door in twenty twenty one 380 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: had over nine hundred billion of inflows. Twenty twenty two 381 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: is we just discussed highly impressive just given the markets 382 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: around six hundred billion in inflows. I think twenty twenty 383 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: three will be the year that we eclipse one trilling 384 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: and influence for the first time. I just think the 385 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: ETF industry is firing on all cylinders right now, and 386 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: ETFs are the investment vehicle moving forward. Eric, did you 387 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: know that Spy and I are the same age. We 388 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: have almost the same birthday. I was born in May. 389 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: That is really cool. It's a great fun fact for 390 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: the last show. It's not my birthday yet, but very 391 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: soon Katie's birthday. That stuff really makes financial television work 392 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: because a lot of it's scripted. The people are scripted, 393 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: they're on message points. I think when I watch, I 394 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: like to see the coloring out of the lines to 395 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: a degree in between some of the guests. So I 396 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: like that you're good at coloring outside the lines, Katie. Well, 397 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: this is why I was so thrilled to be a 398 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: part of this next generation of ETF i Q because 399 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be with Eric, who 400 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: I get along with famously. I knew I was going 401 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: to be with Matt Miller, who it's hard to script you, Matt, 402 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to keep you in the box. So it's 403 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: well Matt. So Matt doesn't go to many of the 404 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: prep meetings. But I think that's a that's a feature, 405 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: not a bug, because we kind of like overdo it. 406 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: We think it we're cooking and cooking. Let me get overcook. 407 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: He comes in and sort of just keeps it fresh, alive. 408 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: He might just ask something from the newsflow from another 409 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: show he was on because he's on radio all like 410 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: since like four more be fair. I don't go to 411 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: the prep meetings because you hold them while I'm on 412 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: a live international broadcast. For sure, for sure, that's true. 413 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: I think it works. I think the dynamic works because 414 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: also you have to assume that people who are perhaps 415 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: watching at one pm on television, maybe they're not so 416 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: in the weeds as we are. So Matt brings it 417 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: is a lot of fun though, because you guys are 418 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: the insiders, right, I mean, Katie's reporting on this for 419 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: BN all day. You run this trillions podcast with Joel, 420 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: so you guys live in the ETF world. You go 421 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: to the conference in Miami to clear I try and 422 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: stay outside of that. Well yeah, no, Matt and Joel 423 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: are the like the the Jim Nances of this, right, 424 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: we're the Tony Romos right there. Get that reference. Let's 425 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: come out of the weeds here and keep does this 426 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: break this down, keep it simple. I think Tony Romo 427 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: is the one that makes the money. But um, okay, 428 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: how do you feel about this one trillion dollar prediction? 429 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: Now it's probably not gonna happen. They've taken seventy five 430 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: billion in the first quarter. Oh, is that for overall 431 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: ETF flows? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels like that's not 432 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: gonna happen. Probably not, but I think over time, I'm 433 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: just very bullish on the industry. But a trillion this 434 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: year probably not gonna happen. But he knows. Okay, we 435 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: got another one. So a block macro C block, ETF 436 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: B block is where we bring on like a bi 437 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: analyst like Athan or James, or a b N person 438 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: like Sam Potter or Fildonna. And in this case, we're 439 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: gonna look at Sam Potter, who talked about bond mutual 440 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: funds to ETFs and he's one of our favorite guests, 441 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: Boomberg News editor Sam Potter. But what's been going on 442 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: under the surface is this ship between bond mutral funds 443 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: to ets. Now, we know that bond ets have really 444 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: come of age these last couple of years, especially after 445 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic and the FED stepping into back bond ETFs. 446 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: But what's different this year is this sort of consistent 447 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: outflows from bond mutual funds where now something like four 448 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty billion dollars have left bond mutual funds 449 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: in the past year. Or so at the same time 450 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: about one hundred and fifty billion going into ets. It 451 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: sounds so much better coming from Sam Potter. I'm gonna 452 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: say he's even good looking just an audio so Matt 453 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: got there before I was going to even bring it up. 454 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: I love having Sam Potter on because he's my etf editor, 455 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: et cetera, you know, fantastic person to work with. But 456 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: also every time he's on, Matt invariably says in the chat, 457 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: this man is so handsome. Well, it's not my fault. 458 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, he's objectively an attractive man. Yes, I don't 459 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: know what to say else about that. He's got a 460 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: little the Hu Grant thing. And then his voice is 461 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: just sound. You know, he's got, He's got, He's definitely 462 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: got some thing. Okay, wait, well the words, let's talk 463 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: about the Let's talk about the substance of his words, Katie. 464 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: Anything you want to say about bond mutual words are 465 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: also really good that come out of his mouth. And 466 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: I mean what he was talking about there, that trend 467 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: that we were talking about for months every single show, 468 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: the fact that bond ets were taking in billions and billions, 469 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: and at the same time bond mutual funds are absolutely bleeding. 470 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: That was one of the big themes of twenty twenty 471 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: two and continues to be a theme of twenty twenty three. Right, 472 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: I mean that's going to go on until what mutual 473 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: funds are all bled out? No? I think they won't 474 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: all bleed out. They got the phone as long as okay, 475 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: but that could change. Right, do you expect regulation to 476 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: address you know ETFs and four oh one ks. Ever, 477 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: the thing with ETF and formal cas is like, um, 478 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: I don't remember Superman two, Yes, of course. Yeah, when 479 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: he goes into the booth Richard Pryor, No, that's four okay. 480 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: Superman two two. So remember he wants to marry Lois Lane, 481 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: but he has to lose his powers in order and 482 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: be a human to marry Lois. Right, that was sad. 483 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: So he goes into the box and they up all 484 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: his powers away. Feels in hindsight, it feels way too 485 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: early to be going down this Superman trajectory, hear me out. No, 486 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: it just ETFs lose Superman's fault. But Superman two should 487 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: not have gone there this quickly. Yeah, true, true, it 488 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: was heavy and that was the one where they had 489 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: the three villains member who came and then three from crypton. Yes, anyway, 490 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: so they came in that mirror that just spun around 491 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: all the time until it's a great yeah. So he 492 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: goes in the box and there's this like thing that 493 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: goes on and he loses his powers. ETFs lose their 494 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: superpowers in a four one K plan. You don't need 495 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: to trade them. In a four one K plan. The 496 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: mutual fund usually get the eye class, so it's as 497 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: cheap as the ETF, and the tax efficiency of the 498 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: ETF goes away because there's a tax deferred. So mutual 499 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: funds are pretty much on a level playing field. Take 500 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: them into a taxable count. ETFs usually are going to 501 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: win that battle. But that's sort of why four when 502 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: K plans don't have a lot of ETFs. That said, 503 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: you can still get a Vanguard or a Fidelity Bond 504 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: index mutual fund and you're gonna get the same thing 505 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: as an ETF. So I I think passive definitely growing 506 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: in the four one K you don't necessarily need the ETF. 507 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: Rapper there, got it, okay. And last guest, last one 508 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: is somebody who had a couple of times we had 509 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: him on We did the show in Miami, and Katie 510 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: has done a good job booking this guy. It's the 511 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: deputyco of Double Line, Jeff Sherman, who basically works for 512 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: Jeff Gunlock, who everybody knows, and he's I think he's 513 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: good because here he's talking about the FED and on 514 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: our show we definitely talk about a lot of macro issues. 515 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: So it's an ETF show, but the macro is important 516 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: to know where to tweak and shift your ETFs. You know, 517 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: I want to ask a little bit about Gunlock, your boss. 518 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: I've been to several ETF conferences over the past six 519 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: years and he's pretty brutal on the FED. He's been 520 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: a pretty big critic of the FED. And I guess 521 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: now that we're in a different environment, I guess how 522 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: would you grade the FED? Do you think? Here's a 523 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: I think a tweet they brought up this is him 524 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: at the Exchange conference, basically saying the FED had just 525 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: tracked the two year get rid of eight hunt An 526 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: economists PhDs. By the way, that's right, that's right. Expensive. Yeah, 527 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: So I guess how would you grade the FED? In 528 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: they're dealing with that shock inflation print? Since then? Yeah. 529 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: I mean, look, they're doing their job, right. I mean, 530 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: we haven't seen kind of a hiking cycle like this. 531 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: If they deliver on the fifty, it'll be the highest 532 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: hiking cycle really in the post World War two era 533 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: in a calendar year. And so they are being aggressive 534 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: and so the great I think they're doing a relatively 535 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: good job. But it's a shock and a campaign because 536 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: there's times they waffle a little bit, which gets this 537 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: risk on trade, the pivots coming. And I think also 538 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: traders have a short memory. I love talking to Jeff 539 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: Sherman because he's really an investor. We can have a 540 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: high level conversation with him, but he also will just 541 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: explicitly say I like this type of bonds, I'm not 542 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: touching junk at this time, things like that, So he 543 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: really he gets into it. This I think speaks to 544 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: our program. Isn't just about ETFs and a vacuum, right, 545 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: and it would make sense to talk about them like 546 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: that anyway. So we bring in every Monday the news 547 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: of the day and what's going on in markets because 548 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,719 Speaker 1: that's important to ETF investors as well. And that's why 549 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: I think Jeff Sherman is one of the great guests 550 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: to have on this show. I mean, to Katie's point, 551 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: he you know, at the end of the day, he 552 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: needs to make money. Double Line isn't famous because Jeff Goodlock, 553 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, dresses so well. Double Line is famous because 554 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: they've been killing it. They knocked the ball out of 555 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: the park over the last decade. They've outperformed everybody else. 556 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: And that's why it's great to have Jeff Sherman and 557 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: talk to us about how to actually invest and make 558 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: money in the ETF market. And they're ETFs trade a ton. 559 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: I'd say it maybe half the investors use ETFs are trading, 560 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: they're tweaking, they're moving their portfolios. Maybe the other half 561 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: is a little more in the vanguardian front, like a 562 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,239 Speaker 1: Dan Egan from Betterment who they don't trade hardly at all, 563 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: although we'll have Dan on they'll make little shifts or 564 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: every year they make a shift. But then there's people 565 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: who tune into Bloomberg TV who might be living in 566 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: Florida and just looking to suit do some day trading, 567 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: and they need to hear from us. You're like, my dad, 568 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: you all dread traders live in Florida? Is that the idea? 569 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: I was just trying to create a little bit of 570 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: a stereotype maybe, but yeah, I think a lot of 571 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: them do. I think a lot of people down there 572 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: have money and they're a little bit like have time 573 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: on their hands or phoenix. Yeah, maybe yes, But I'm 574 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: just thinking of like there's professionals who need to know 575 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: what to do because that's their job, and then there's 576 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: also just individual retail investors who are just want to 577 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: be aware. And then a lot of times in the show, 578 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: we'll go from Jeff Sherman talking about macro to talking 579 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: about ETFs that he offers and why they might be 580 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: a solution to that, or even other people's ETFs will 581 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: asking about HyG so we will pepper in ETFs to 582 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: the macro. So because I always thought ETFs are how 583 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: you play at home to everything being said on Bloomberg TV. Sure, 584 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: they democratize everything you can do any trade, and they 585 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,479 Speaker 1: can be good for retail investors, they can be good 586 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: for institutional investors. I love talking about bond blocks, you know, 587 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: because that is like deep in the weeds, nitty gritty 588 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: ETF tools that you can use in a much larger 589 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: trading strategy. Yeah. Absolutely, but no bigger topic right now 590 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: for an investor like this than than the FED and 591 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: how the Fed's doing their jobs. The Fed's always the 592 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: biggest topic. I mean, even if like for a while 593 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: for a while, I'm not so sure it was, but 594 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: like it definitely wasn't, dude. They were at ZERPE for 595 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: ten years zero interest rate policy or NERP near zero 596 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: interestrate policy. Right, So for a long time, earnings really mattered. 597 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: People cared how companies did in the stock market. You know, 598 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: for a long time it was about the economy that said. 599 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes they'd be like, you have like a good earnings run, 600 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: and then someone would go, like, wait a second, the 601 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: FED could raise rates and actually you'd have a sell off. 602 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: There has been this interesting good news, bad news, bad news, 603 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: good news, back and forth. Sometimes they line up good 604 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: news is good news, but the sometimes good news is 605 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: bad news, and it's usually because the Fed's reaction is 606 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: going to create a sell off, even though that you 607 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: had just had good news. It's just it's just the 608 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: FED is a huge force. It comes up a lot, 609 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: and as it should be. Matt Katie, thanks for arnings 610 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: on Trilliance and Leisure. Congrats on ETFIQ. Thank you Thanks 611 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: for having us, Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. 612 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, 613 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you like to listen. 614 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm 615 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: at Joel Wepper Show. He's at Eric Falcuna's. This episode 616 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: of Trillions was produced by Magnets Hendricksonpye