Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next Question.
Speaker 1: Today I'm sharing a special bonus episode and part two
Speaker 1: of our parenting deep dive. In part one, New York
Speaker 1: Times journalists Jessica Gross gave us some historic contexts for
Speaker 1: the impossible situation parents find themselves in today and shared
Speaker 1: the ways that work, politics, and our culture can do better.
Speaker 1: We also heard from clinical psychologist and parenting guru Dr
Speaker 1: Becky Kennedy, and today in part two, I'm sharing our
Speaker 1: entire sweeping conversation. I was really into Dr Becky. You guys.
Speaker 1: We talked about how she became the millennial parenting whisper,
Speaker 1: what's behind her parenting philosophy, how to navigate social media
Speaker 1: and screen time, and so much more so, settle in,
Speaker 1: friends and enjoy Dr Becky with rate advice for parents
Speaker 1: and really anyone out there. Dr Becky Kennedy, Okay, you've
Speaker 1: become sort of this parenting phenom. And before we talk
Speaker 1: about your advice and your approach toward parenting, I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you about you. How did you what's
Speaker 1: a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?
Speaker 1: As my mom used to say, how did you get
Speaker 1: into this? Whole line of work. Um, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: I've always just found people to be so fascinating and
Speaker 1: and honestly, probably like you, have been interested in people's stories. Um,
Speaker 1: And I've always just kind of loved living in this
Speaker 1: space between what I know is people like doing their best,
Speaker 1: and I really have always believed people are kind of
Speaker 1: inherently good, and then there's this whole range of behavior
Speaker 1: as we all engage in that are like really not
Speaker 1: so good. And so I've always like imagined this space
Speaker 1: between people's identity and their behavior. And then I learned
Speaker 1: as I get older, oh, kind of the space in
Speaker 1: between a lot of it can be understood by psychology
Speaker 1: and sociology and actually people a living of getting to
Speaker 1: know people and understanding that space and helping people kind
Speaker 1: of close that space and acting more in line with
Speaker 1: their values. And so then I you know, studied psychology
Speaker 1: at Duke and started a private practice after getting my PhD,
Speaker 1: and clinical and adult psychology. And then as I became
Speaker 1: a parent myself, I realized, in addition to kind of
Speaker 1: the deep psychotherapy I like doing, I really liked working
Speaker 1: with parents who weren't necessarily seeking therapy. They were actually
Speaker 1: seeking kind of guidance for how to help the struggles
Speaker 1: they saw with their kids. So a lot of these
Speaker 1: parents would come to me and say, Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: even looking for therapy for my kid. I just know
Speaker 1: that I need to kind of brush up on some
Speaker 1: skills because I don't like the way I'm interacting with
Speaker 1: my kid. But I don't I don't know what to
Speaker 1: do differently, or I know my kid is kind of
Speaker 1: in the range of normal. Therefore they're having tantrums, their
Speaker 1: tend they're lying to me. I don't know if what
Speaker 1: they need is therapy, but I need help, just like
Speaker 1: helping this whole system. And then that led me to,
Speaker 1: you know, want to do a lot more you know,
Speaker 1: kind of direct parenting work. And I feel like everything
Speaker 1: really came together because parenting is not just this kind
Speaker 1: of set of strategies or skills we can memorize, because
Speaker 1: our own past and the way we were parented and
Speaker 1: kind of our stuff just all comes alive. And so
Speaker 1: that combination of thinking deeply about people, understanding why we
Speaker 1: are the way we are, and then giving people very practical,
Speaker 1: action oriented kind of help. Um, I was able to
Speaker 1: do all of that with parents and then just wanted
Speaker 1: to do more and more of it. Well, clearly you're
Speaker 1: feeling a huge void I think in the marketplace. Although
Speaker 1: if you go to the parenting section at any Barnes
Speaker 1: and Noble, it is replete with, you know, all kinds
Speaker 1: of parenting books. So what do you think it it
Speaker 1: is about your approach? Becky? Should I call you Dr? Becky? Becky? Okay? Um?
Speaker 1: That that really differentiates you from so many other people
Speaker 1: in the in this arena. So I've reflected on this
Speaker 1: question for a little bit because I've wondered it myself.
Speaker 1: I've been to the parenting section too, Like there's like
Speaker 1: a lot of action here, you know. Um. So I
Speaker 1: think there's a couple of things from a parenting specific standpoint,
Speaker 1: I feel like we've been fed these two models, neither
Speaker 1: of which actually feel right to people. Where there's this
Speaker 1: model of okay, change behavior, and kids do this bad
Speaker 1: behavior and we need less of the bad and more
Speaker 1: of the good, and so we have time outs and
Speaker 1: we have punishments, and we have sticker charts and praise
Speaker 1: and ignoring. And while that all makes sense logically, I
Speaker 1: feel like all of us deepen our souls or like
Speaker 1: this just this can't be it like, this doesn't feel good,
Speaker 1: this doesn't feel right. I don't know about you, but
Speaker 1: if my husband responded to my not so great behavior
Speaker 1: by like giving me a time out or a sticker
Speaker 1: or something, I would not feel great. And so nobody
Speaker 1: likes doing those strategies. In fact, you talk about how
Speaker 1: it's shaping behavior, not human beings. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: there's this like very very narrow way of looking at kids,
Speaker 1: as if we can help young, impressionable children become fully functioning,
Speaker 1: sturdy adults by just looking at what's happening on the surface.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a Pavlovian attitude about parenting, isn't it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, right, well, my kid keeps hitting their younger sibling,
Speaker 1: and if I just scare them enough by threatening abandonment
Speaker 1: to their room, or by having a scary voice or
Speaker 1: kind of bribe them enough with stickers, then I will
Speaker 1: fix my child. But we all know, well, what happened
Speaker 1: to the jealousy that was driving that, or what happened
Speaker 1: to the anger. Well, guess what, your kid's gonna feel
Speaker 1: jealous and angry for the rest of their lives, probably
Speaker 1: towards their siblings, but also just in general. So if
Speaker 1: we're not building skills for those feelings, well, what's gonna
Speaker 1: happen when your kids twenty and feels jealous of their
Speaker 1: you know friend, or what's going to happen when they're
Speaker 1: forty and are angry at their boss? Like, nothing good
Speaker 1: because they've never developed skills. So that approach is like
Speaker 1: purely logical behavior shaping, and to me, beyond it not
Speaker 1: feeling good to me, there's also just an inefficiency like, wait,
Speaker 1: you're missing out in all the years you could be
Speaker 1: developing skills that kids actually need for the rest of
Speaker 1: their lives. So I think there's a lot of books
Speaker 1: and a lot of parenting approaches that fall into that category.
Speaker 1: And then there's a lot of books and kind of
Speaker 1: approaches that fall into the category of weight like feelings matter,
Speaker 1: and like we need to see feelings and allow for feelings.
Speaker 1: But I think sometimes on that side of things, people
Speaker 1: feel limited because parents are thinking, okay, okay, but what
Speaker 1: do I do in the moment? Like, but what do
Speaker 1: I actually say? And okay, so you allow the feelings,
Speaker 1: but what about when yeah, it results in lying or hitting,
Speaker 1: Like I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to sit back
Speaker 1: and be like, my kid is feeling angry, how amazing,
Speaker 1: Like that's definitely not right either. And so I think
Speaker 1: our approach equally prioritizes yes, seeing feelings as real and
Speaker 1: strong and important, but also something I call bodying authority
Speaker 1: and really sturdy leadership and firm boundaries. And so it's
Speaker 1: kind of a hybrid of these two approaches exactly. So
Speaker 1: I think that feels good and then and then maybe
Speaker 1: even more than that, I really think it's like the
Speaker 1: first approach that is as much about self development as
Speaker 1: it's about child development. And that's not a way of
Speaker 1: saying it's parents fault at all. I don't think any
Speaker 1: of the stuff is parents fault. I actually think it's
Speaker 1: a way of saying, we have a huge opportunity here,
Speaker 1: Like this is a parenting approach where you can grow
Speaker 1: even outside your role as a parent, and you can
Speaker 1: feel more healed and you can feel more centered and
Speaker 1: more sturdy across the board, while at the same time
Speaker 1: you're building resilience and your kids. And I think there's
Speaker 1: just a feel good nature. I think there's an efficiency
Speaker 1: parents like, oh, I can knock that both out at once,
Speaker 1: like that that sounds good. Well that's interesting too, because
Speaker 1: who's to say that first time parent or even a
Speaker 1: second third time parent has all the answers. It is
Speaker 1: really a kind of learn as you process. There isn't
Speaker 1: really a handbook for handling this. No. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is the thing that gets me super fired up. Um,
Speaker 1: And I think it is such a larger sociological problem
Speaker 1: that I feel like most raw to almost more than
Speaker 1: any you know one parenting problem. This bigger problem, which
Speaker 1: is parenting is the hardest and most important job in
Speaker 1: the world. And it's a job we have for a
Speaker 1: lot of years. Like your kids are older, you're still
Speaker 1: a parent, Like you still parent. And most jobs in
Speaker 1: this country that we value that we think are important,
Speaker 1: we really prioritize the people in those jobs getting training
Speaker 1: and resources. And not only that, Like if I think
Speaker 1: about a surgeon, i'd ever go to because I would
Speaker 1: think surgery is like another really important, you know, really
Speaker 1: hard job. I would never see a surgeon who like
Speaker 1: got their tips on Instagram, Like I'd be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: like did you get training? And the surgeon who got
Speaker 1: the most training, the surgeon who had ongoing support. I
Speaker 1: think all of us would look at that surgeon positively,
Speaker 1: not like what's wrong with you? We'd be like, that's amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, when can I get an appointment? And with
Speaker 1: parenting at the opposite, where we just take this baby
Speaker 1: home from the hospital, we're given nothing. There's this bullshit
Speaker 1: about maternal instinct. Right, So it's kind of saying, if
Speaker 1: you are struggling, it's your fault, you know, as opposed
Speaker 1: to if I am struggling, maybe I wasn't set up
Speaker 1: to thrive, and maybe there are resources and support I
Speaker 1: can then go invest in, not just for my kids,
Speaker 1: but again just so I can feel more confident. So
Speaker 1: I think you're right, and I think that's a huge
Speaker 1: shift we need. We were talking earlier when we were
Speaker 1: walking into the studio about generational trauma, and I'm so
Speaker 1: fascinated by this, and it's something that I've thought a
Speaker 1: lot about in the last year or so, and it's
Speaker 1: surprising to me that this is now just getting so
Speaker 1: much attention. And it's not it's it's trauma broadly defined.
Speaker 1: In other words, how you were parented and what you
Speaker 1: experienced as a child comes out when you're a parent.
Speaker 1: And yet people don't understand that people don't look at
Speaker 1: that and either correct it or reinforce the things that
Speaker 1: were positive in their own childhood's. Talk to me about
Speaker 1: how parenting styles reflect your own childhood experience and why
Speaker 1: this is just now coming to light. I'm sure as
Speaker 1: the psychologist it's something that you have been steeped in,
Speaker 1: but the general public I don't think has. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think it is still under talked about. Maybe right,
Speaker 1: it's starting to definitely be talked about more. But absolutely
Speaker 1: something I say often is without intervention and guidance, we
Speaker 1: parent the way we were parented, and very few people
Speaker 1: I know are like great, like I want to do
Speaker 1: things exactly the same way, right, and so why is
Speaker 1: this right? Well, we learn about what close relationships are
Speaker 1: through our earliest attachments, right, We learn what's allowed, what
Speaker 1: feelings are allowed, what feelings are safe, what brings me
Speaker 1: closeness with others, literally, what brings my parents close, what
Speaker 1: gets me loving looks and kind of validation Even when
Speaker 1: you're an infant, that modeling is so critically important. Just
Speaker 1: looking at a child, smiling at that child, reinforcing that
Speaker 1: that child is loved unconditionally. So many kids don't have
Speaker 1: that they don't, And there's this other narrative, right, like, oh,
Speaker 1: they won't remember that anyway, Right, that's like something people say,
Speaker 1: And yeah, I hope more more people understand a much
Speaker 1: broader definition of memory, which is, you know, the most
Speaker 1: important memories in my mind aren't the ones ever that
Speaker 1: we recall with our words. They're the ones that were
Speaker 1: just stored in our body and live out in our
Speaker 1: behavioral patterns. Right. That's another form of memory. Right, So
Speaker 1: I remember always that there was a dad I used
Speaker 1: to see in private practice. He said, I don't remember
Speaker 1: how my parents responded to my tantrums and hard moments.
Speaker 1: How would I remember that? But this is a dad
Speaker 1: who came to me because he's like, whenever my kids
Speaker 1: are having a hard time and are upset, which I
Speaker 1: now know is actually totally developmental normal. I know what
Speaker 1: I want to say and do, but I gets scary,
Speaker 1: like I yell and I send them away. And he'd say,
Speaker 1: I don't remember how my parents responded. And I used
Speaker 1: to almost like hold this in lightness, like what do
Speaker 1: you mean you don't remember? Your memory just played out
Speaker 1: like right there? You know, like I can tell you
Speaker 1: what happened, right, not because I can see into the past,
Speaker 1: you know that far, but because our tolerance for tough
Speaker 1: moments with our kids comes from our parents tolerance for
Speaker 1: those tough moments with us. So parents who say, yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's really hard for me to stay calm during
Speaker 1: my kid's tantrum or and my kid asked for something
Speaker 1: over and over, it's really really hard for me to
Speaker 1: stay sturdy. I get really triggered or reactive on some level.
Speaker 1: We're reliving this bodily memory. We're probably in our childhoods,
Speaker 1: you know, when we wanted something that was inconvenient for
Speaker 1: our parents, which is most of the time with children, right,
Speaker 1: because you want things and you can't have them. And
Speaker 1: so when you want something and you can't have it
Speaker 1: and you haven't yet developed regulation skills, you have a tantrum.
Speaker 1: It's not a sign of being a bad spoiled kid.
Speaker 1: It's a sign of how hard it is to want
Speaker 1: and be denied, which is hard for us too. And
Speaker 1: if that was responded to over and over, it would
Speaker 1: have been responded to with some version of you know, oh,
Speaker 1: you're crying, I'll give you something to cry about, or
Speaker 1: go to your room, or you're spoiled or no TV
Speaker 1: for a week, or you know, physical punishment of some type.
Speaker 1: Then our bodies learned back to that word trauma. Wow,
Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to want things for myself. It doesn't
Speaker 1: learn I'm not supposed to ask for this game at
Speaker 1: the toy store. Just learn something bigger, like when I
Speaker 1: want something and other people say no, that is really dangerous.
Speaker 1: So I should just put that away. I should stop
Speaker 1: wanting things. I should suppress my desires exactly. But it
Speaker 1: can also be I imagine the the inability to really
Speaker 1: even deal with these things on a deeper level. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be an anchor or punishment. It could
Speaker 1: just be inadequacy, right in terms of knowing how to
Speaker 1: navig ate these feelings. Yes, right, I think the feelings
Speaker 1: that our parents can't tolerate in us. Either yes, there's
Speaker 1: a form they punish you or they just like I
Speaker 1: can't talk about that. You know, you come home really sad,
Speaker 1: and you know, again, not one time, but over and over,
Speaker 1: and maybe you didn't get punished. It wasn't like that,
Speaker 1: but more no one no one asked you, like, no
Speaker 1: one followed up. You were just kind of alone in
Speaker 1: your room. Our body can't tolerate overwhelming feelings in a loneness,
Speaker 1: and often we you know, kind of point the finger
Speaker 1: at the feelings, like the feelings are the problem. The
Speaker 1: feelings were never the problem. The aloneness is the problem.
Speaker 1: I actually think that's what trauma is. It's tough experiences
Speaker 1: encoded with a loneness, right, and so when we're alone
Speaker 1: and overwhelming feelings, our body can't tolerate it. Where this
Speaker 1: relational species. So going back to the intergenerational trauma and
Speaker 1: how this plays out. It might not be punishment or
Speaker 1: getting hit or even getting sent to your room, but
Speaker 1: people say this all the time, like my family just
Speaker 1: didn't talk about feelings like forget being angry, just like
Speaker 1: feelings like sadness, disappointment. It was just that was never
Speaker 1: on the table. Then there's a whole range of feelings,
Speaker 1: a really wide range that you had to learn to
Speaker 1: put away. So then you see feelings in your kids
Speaker 1: and you're thinking, I want to be there when my
Speaker 1: kid got cut from the soccer team, but like like
Speaker 1: your body is like really struggling to go to their room.
Speaker 1: You're like, I feel awkward, and then instead of kind
Speaker 1: of pushing through that, in some ways, saying, Okay, I
Speaker 1: feel awkward because I'm like the first one in my
Speaker 1: generation to go talk about sadness with someone. Of course
Speaker 1: that feels awkward. That's carving a new circuit. If we
Speaker 1: don't push forward, then we kind of repeat that same pattern. Oh,
Speaker 1: my kids seems fine, forget it. My kid then learns
Speaker 1: I guess we're not supposed to talk about sadness. And
Speaker 1: it continues when we come back the importance of repair
Speaker 1: and why we all need to look at ourselves first,
Speaker 1: h you filled a huge need during the pandemic. I
Speaker 1: know before America shut down, you didn't have an Instagram account.
Speaker 1: Now you have one point five million followers, a book,
Speaker 1: a little bit of a many empire going. So why
Speaker 1: do you think, Becky, you hit such a chord. And
Speaker 1: by the way, I've never been so grateful to have
Speaker 1: grown children then in the last few years, because hats
Speaker 1: off to all the mothers and fathers, parents everywhere who
Speaker 1: had to juggle and deal with so much. And I
Speaker 1: love that. Shout out to everyone listening who had young kids,
Speaker 1: who had teenagers, who had their first baby, who were
Speaker 1: single parents, who are going through a divorce, who are
Speaker 1: who were married and still like, no matter what, it
Speaker 1: was hard, it was so hard. And actually the other
Speaker 1: thing we were talking about before this was how important
Speaker 1: it is to kids to to just name what's true,
Speaker 1: to talk about the hard stuff. We often think we're
Speaker 1: protecting them by not but I think we're actually increasing
Speaker 1: a lot of their anxiety because again, then they feel alone.
Speaker 1: So when you're confused and confused, nobody likes feeling alone
Speaker 1: and confused. Those two things together are awful, right, So
Speaker 1: I think during the pandemic, I think something that really
Speaker 1: maybe like help me hit a stride with people as
Speaker 1: I do. I think I've always been someone who has
Speaker 1: never shied away from naming the hard, like even say
Speaker 1: this is hard. We all yell at our kids, this
Speaker 1: pandemic sucks, this is so difficult. You are doing an
Speaker 1: impossible thing. You're a warrior. You did not mess up
Speaker 1: your kid forever when you yelled. Here are some words
Speaker 1: you can use. And I think during that time of
Speaker 1: so much uncertainty, yeah, when people knew like okay, I
Speaker 1: can go somewhere and there'll be someone who's naming something
Speaker 1: that feels right on to what's actually happening in my house,
Speaker 1: who's not telling me necessarily how to make it all better.
Speaker 1: But who's just helping me tolerate how hard this is? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think we all needed that. And I think that
Speaker 1: you were hearing the desperate cries of mothers everywhere. What
Speaker 1: were they saying to you? What were they struggling with?
Speaker 1: I guess just about everything, right, Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think that the biggest thing they were struggling with is like,
Speaker 1: is is this tell me this is as hard as
Speaker 1: it feels, you know, like, and it's one of my
Speaker 1: core mantras for parenting is just this feels hard because
Speaker 1: it is hard, not because I'm doing something wrong. And
Speaker 1: I always think that when something's really hard, if we
Speaker 1: can just validate for ourselves, Wait, I'm not a horrible parent,
Speaker 1: Like this just actually is really hard to be home
Speaker 1: with two kids in a pandemic or even at this stage,
Speaker 1: this is really hard to manage through a tantrum and
Speaker 1: a grocery store. We don't then layer on the self blame,
Speaker 1: which goes into I'm a horrible parent. I messed up
Speaker 1: this Forever. If people saw me, they want to believe
Speaker 1: that I'm the type of parent. When we add that layer,
Speaker 1: I think hard becomes impossible. And when we remove that layer,
Speaker 1: which is the impossible, it's still hard. But hard is
Speaker 1: is far too Here are two impossible. And you talk
Speaker 1: about the need for repair, um, which you say is
Speaker 1: something really important for people to understand. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us what you mean by that? Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: really think you know, for any parent or even nonparent
Speaker 1: listening to this, I think the single most important strategy
Speaker 1: to get good at in our relationships is repair. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure there's some actual definition for what
Speaker 1: repair is. To me, I just think it's connecting after
Speaker 1: a moment of disconnection. And we all know moments with
Speaker 1: our kids, with a partner, with a colleague, we're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're disconnected. It was not a feel good moment. Repairs
Speaker 1: the act of going back and forming a connection again
Speaker 1: after And if you think about what it means to
Speaker 1: get really good at repair, well, there has to be
Speaker 1: a rupture to repair. And I think this is actually
Speaker 1: helpful to parents. Think. Okay, so the next time I
Speaker 1: yell at my kid, I'm gonna try to remember this
Speaker 1: conversation I heard between Becky and Katie being like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I gotta get good at repair well. To get good
Speaker 1: at repair after rupture. So okay, check I did step one.
Speaker 1: I yelled at my kids, like I'm not not a
Speaker 1: horrible parent. How to do that? To do the next step,
Speaker 1: And then the next step is reconnecting first with ourselves
Speaker 1: and reminding ourselves I didn't mess up my kid forever
Speaker 1: like I can. I always think of repair. I can
Speaker 1: rewrite the ending of that chapter, I can go back,
Speaker 1: I can reopen that file, and when I do, I
Speaker 1: essentially say, hey, that thing that didn't feel good, you
Speaker 1: were right to feel that way, and that probably felt
Speaker 1: scary or probably didn't feel good when I didn't understand
Speaker 1: your side of things, and I'm sorry I yelled. I
Speaker 1: always like to say to my kids, it's never your
Speaker 1: fault when I yell, because kids, when we don't explain
Speaker 1: things to them, they self blame to gain control, and
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't want that for their future. And
Speaker 1: then some version of I'm working on managing my feelings
Speaker 1: just like you are, and I am really working on
Speaker 1: doing better in the future. And when we do that,
Speaker 1: we actually change the way the not so great memory
Speaker 1: lives in a kid's body because surrounding the moment that
Speaker 1: felt scarier when they felt alone or misunderstood. Would now
Speaker 1: because I've rewritten that ending in the chapter, I kind
Speaker 1: of surround that moment with the elements that we're missing
Speaker 1: in the first place, compassion, connection, understanding, listening, And I
Speaker 1: just like, I want every parent to know because we've
Speaker 1: all had those moments and I'll have that again, and
Speaker 1: I have them where I'm like in my bathroom and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I got I'm a kid,
Speaker 1: or I can't believe I said these words, I promise
Speaker 1: myself I would never say. And then we spiral as
Speaker 1: if that defines who we are. And when we can
Speaker 1: take a deep breath and say whoa repair is, where
Speaker 1: it's at, repair is where it's at, repair is where
Speaker 1: it's at, and go back to our kid, I mean,
Speaker 1: it feels so much better for them. I think we
Speaker 1: almost underestimate it feels so much better for us too.
Speaker 1: And then we move forward in such a different way.
Speaker 1: Your book is called good Inside a guide to becoming
Speaker 1: the parent you want to be? So can you explain
Speaker 1: in a nutshell? I think a lot of people who
Speaker 1: follow you and who listen to your advice understand this.
Speaker 1: But for the people who don't Becky, what is your
Speaker 1: overall philosophy on raising children that that that kids are
Speaker 1: basically inherently good. Yeah, I mean I believe you know,
Speaker 1: same with adults. I really do believe we all have
Speaker 1: this inherent goodness and as our kids are developing, being
Speaker 1: able to see them as good inside is in no
Speaker 1: way permission for their quote bad behavior. Right. Seeing kids
Speaker 1: as good inside helps us separate And I always do
Speaker 1: this on my two hands to make it concrete, like
Speaker 1: they're good identity from there, not so good behavior. Right.
Speaker 1: And I always think our interventions with our kids fall
Speaker 1: into two buckets. Either we're looking at our kid as
Speaker 1: a good kid having a hard time or a bad
Speaker 1: kid doing bad things. Punishments, consequences, time outs are all
Speaker 1: from the bad kid doing bad things bucket. And when
Speaker 1: we see kids as good inside, then we have a
Speaker 1: gap between their good behavior, their good identity, and their
Speaker 1: bad behavior, and then we can actually intervene to help
Speaker 1: them build skills versus send them away and add shame.
Speaker 1: So I think this is an approach that sees kids
Speaker 1: is inherent the good inside that allows us to build skills,
Speaker 1: and that allows us to actually raise kids in a
Speaker 1: way where we're developing all the skills they need for
Speaker 1: adult Can you expand on the resilience versus happiness idea?
Speaker 1: Because when I was raising my kids, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of focus on grit, right, and how to how
Speaker 1: to develop grit and effort should be praised rather than
Speaker 1: the results. So tell me resilience versus happiness? Is that
Speaker 1: sort of the same thing about that grit versus results
Speaker 1: are not? Really? Yeah, I think it's like they're definitely
Speaker 1: like close cousins, you know, so yes, grit, resilience, confidence,
Speaker 1: they all have slightly different conceptualizations, but I think they're all.
Speaker 1: You know, we'd all be like I'll take any one
Speaker 1: of those that's good, you know, can me give me anyone?
Speaker 1: We're fine? Um, So yeah, the resilience over happiness, I
Speaker 1: think is is a really really important concept to think
Speaker 1: about when we're raising kids, because there's this line I
Speaker 1: hear a lot like don't just want your kids to
Speaker 1: be happy? Or don't you want your kids to be happy?
Speaker 1: And I'm always like no, And then parents often we
Speaker 1: go to the opposite. They're like, oh, Dr Becky wants
Speaker 1: her kids to be unhappy, Like, no, I don't want
Speaker 1: them to be unhappy either. But when we focus on
Speaker 1: happiness and childhood, we do something really tricky in terms
Speaker 1: of kids wiring in stet up for adulthood, where every
Speaker 1: time kids experienced distress, and what might distress be in
Speaker 1: childhood Frustration like I can't finish this puzzle, or feeling
Speaker 1: left out I wasn't invited to that slumber party, feeling
Speaker 1: disappointed I didn't get that thing I want, I didn't
Speaker 1: get the present that I wanted to for the holidays. Exactly,
Speaker 1: so they experience various forms of distress in childhood, and
Speaker 1: then if they're wiring is whenever I feel kind of
Speaker 1: the light go on for distress, I then wire next
Speaker 1: to it the light going off to return to happy, meaning, right, oh,
Speaker 1: you weren't invited to that party, I'm throwing you another one,
Speaker 1: or oh I'll finish that puzzle for you, or or
Speaker 1: I'll get you that gift. I'll give you that gift,
Speaker 1: not because as a parent I've changed my mind, because
Speaker 1: I actually I am just kind of scared of you
Speaker 1: having a tantrum. Right then, that's also that instant gratification
Speaker 1: which relates exactly too. We think about phones and we
Speaker 1: think about video games, and we think about the obsession
Speaker 1: with kind of scrolling, which is a lot of instant,
Speaker 1: low effort, high gratification moments. This also relates to these
Speaker 1: moments we're talking about, how do we deal with kids
Speaker 1: in non screen time situations when they're frustrated and pointed.
Speaker 1: It's also must be a dopamine inducing reaction that sets
Speaker 1: them up for quick fixes. But that's exactly right. So
Speaker 1: I think about this family I saw in the city,
Speaker 1: and they were a very wealthy family. They were, and
Speaker 1: they came to me when their kid was sixteen, just
Speaker 1: the parents. They said, Okay, here's the situation. We flew
Speaker 1: to Hawaii on this vacation and they're like, and we
Speaker 1: didn't fly first class. We don't even think about it.
Speaker 1: My sixteen year old had a full blown tantrum. Oh
Speaker 1: brother the airport, right, which brings up like all these
Speaker 1: entitled and right. But if you think about it, and
Speaker 1: I took, you know, an inventory of this kid's childhood
Speaker 1: and very well intentioned parents, This was a kid whose
Speaker 1: life was all about having a quick fix and being
Speaker 1: happy immediately. So when the body then starts to feel
Speaker 1: frustration or disappointment, you're allowed to feel disappointed if you're
Speaker 1: used to flying for a class. Sure, I think no
Speaker 1: one blames that kid for feeling disappointed. It's just like whoa.
Speaker 1: In my mind, I see, it's like that kid had
Speaker 1: no skills to manage. Is the same as a two
Speaker 1: year old having a temper tantrum when you say they
Speaker 1: won't buy them Coco puffs in the grocery store. Right,
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's just is more embarrassing to
Speaker 1: a parent. Right, But this kid's body was wired with
Speaker 1: feel upset. Where's the happy, where's the immediate fix? There's
Speaker 1: almost then a phobia of frustration. But we've built that
Speaker 1: in a kid. So the more we focus on kids
Speaker 1: being happy in their early years, the more we've actually
Speaker 1: set them up for disregulation and what looks like entitlement
Speaker 1: or anxiety in adulthood. And the more we focus in
Speaker 1: the early years on helping kids tolerate the range of feelings,
Speaker 1: then they actually go into adulthood with skills to manage
Speaker 1: all those feelings, which actually leaves more space to actually
Speaker 1: cultivate happiness. Is this something that isn't the fault of
Speaker 1: some of these parents. It's there, you know, we talked
Speaker 1: about this before, but they're just passing down or are
Speaker 1: they or they could be working in opposition to the
Speaker 1: way they were parented. And I know you talk about
Speaker 1: reparenting a lot, so what does that mean exactly in
Speaker 1: these situations. I think there's so many forces that can
Speaker 1: lead to this right and again, and none of them
Speaker 1: are that these parents were bad, parents were malintentioned, or
Speaker 1: maybe they didn't get things when they were little, and
Speaker 1: now they feel like, I'm in a position that I
Speaker 1: can give my child everything I didn't get. I think
Speaker 1: that that's exactly right. And I always like with parents
Speaker 1: to rethink um giving kids, you know, the things that
Speaker 1: really matter, because yes, you know, people think on their
Speaker 1: own childhood like I didn't I didn't get things right.
Speaker 1: My guess is if you really look back in your
Speaker 1: childhood and you remember, I didn't get the toy, I
Speaker 1: didn't get the vacation, my guess is what felt bad
Speaker 1: again wasn't just the not getting, but was probably a
Speaker 1: home where it wasn't validated for you, you weren't connected
Speaker 1: to right. And then if we fast forward to the
Speaker 1: idea of I want to give my kids everything, like
Speaker 1: what I want to give my kids is setting them
Speaker 1: up to be fully functioning, confident, resilient adults. It's not
Speaker 1: that I want to give them the thing on the surface,
Speaker 1: the toy. I want to give them actually the skills
Speaker 1: to manage not getting the toy, because I promise you
Speaker 1: they're going to figure out, if they're confident, resilient, how
Speaker 1: to get themselves quote toys. But what you can't just
Speaker 1: figure out overnight is how to manage tricky situations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so the reparenting I think that really matters is
Speaker 1: really the act of of giving yourself the things that
Speaker 1: you really always needed in childhood and never received. And
Speaker 1: and there's something really powerful about being an adult is
Speaker 1: we can now really in profound ways be the adult
Speaker 1: for those Essentially, you know that that inner child in us,
Speaker 1: or those inner child parts, we don't have to wait
Speaker 1: along for our actual parents to give it to us,
Speaker 1: because we're no longer is dependent on them because we're adults.
Speaker 1: So it might be you know, sitting and noticing how
Speaker 1: you feel, which sounds so soft, but it might just
Speaker 1: be like I'm gonna take ten seconds and just say
Speaker 1: to myself after I got a really difficult email from
Speaker 1: my boss, I might say, you know, hopeck you wait. Pause,
Speaker 1: I'm upset. That is upsetting to read. I'm allowed to
Speaker 1: feel that way. I'm gonna figure out what to do.
Speaker 1: But let me start by just validating my own feelings, okay,
Speaker 1: and then I then I problem solved. I promise you
Speaker 1: the parent who does that is going to be able
Speaker 1: to show up for their kid if they want to
Speaker 1: kind of quote be there for their kid, way better
Speaker 1: than if they just try to memorize what to say
Speaker 1: to their kid. Because when they actually do that kind
Speaker 1: of act of reparenting, right, they're actually changing the circuit
Speaker 1: in their own body, and so something different will activate
Speaker 1: with their own kids. So it's almost like grabbing the
Speaker 1: oxygen masks for yourself before you give it to your kid.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that's used a lot, it's become
Speaker 1: almost to cliche, but getting sort of in touch with
Speaker 1: your reactions are going to help you manage your kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So here's an example from my my own life. Right. So,
Speaker 1: I was definitely like a very quote good girl growing up, right,
Speaker 1: which I've learned is a pleaser. I was a pleaser
Speaker 1: exactly exactly, and like the way I always think about
Speaker 1: that visually is I was you know, raising away, or
Speaker 1: at least I you know, I internalized that I had
Speaker 1: to gaze out before I gaze in, like who do
Speaker 1: you want me to be? How can I make your
Speaker 1: life easier? Way before I gazed in and thought like, well,
Speaker 1: what do I want? What's in line with you know,
Speaker 1: my own values? Things like that. So fast forward to
Speaker 1: having my first kid, who is now eleven, I'm starting out, like,
Speaker 1: you know, five six he just the most positive way
Speaker 1: of saying is he really speaks up for himself right
Speaker 1: the other way of saying it, which would be triggering me.
Speaker 1: He was like why can't he ever take no for
Speaker 1: an answer? Like why can't he be more people? Leasing?
Speaker 1: Why can't he just notice that I don't want him
Speaker 1: to have a sleepover and be like, mom, you know what,
Speaker 1: You're a great mom, no problem, Sorry for asking, you know,
Speaker 1: like that would be nice and he wouldn't. And I'd
Speaker 1: find myself in these moments, especially when I was frustrated
Speaker 1: or depleted with other things, saying things that I really
Speaker 1: never wanted to say, like what's wrong with you? You're
Speaker 1: so selfish, you're so spoiled, Like I'd say these things
Speaker 1: in these moments, and I knew I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: want to give him a sleepover, But I also know, Becky,
Speaker 1: there's another way of saying that I could to say, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm done talking about this. My answer is no, You're
Speaker 1: allowed to be upset. And the reason I couldn't wasn't
Speaker 1: because I didn't memorize that script enough, is because I
Speaker 1: was triggered. So one of the reflections I did was,
Speaker 1: you know, when I think we see something in our
Speaker 1: kid that bugs us, we think, how can we make
Speaker 1: our kids more like us? Versus what am I seeing
Speaker 1: in my kid that I probably had to shut down
Speaker 1: in myself? And how can I actually almost feel inspired
Speaker 1: by my kid because I probably need to grow always
Speaker 1: like I probably need to grow that part of myself.
Speaker 1: It's not like I need to make my kid more
Speaker 1: like me. I almost need to make myself or like
Speaker 1: my kid. And I was like, yeah, you know, no,
Speaker 1: wonder it triggers me speaking up for something when I
Speaker 1: or and no, that's something that I learned not to
Speaker 1: do as a kid, and so I really did for
Speaker 1: like these weeks I did this experiment. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to speak up for myself more, not to
Speaker 1: my son, but I bet if I do it in
Speaker 1: other areas of my life, it'll play out and I'll
Speaker 1: be less triggered. So I remember being in a store
Speaker 1: and I was returning something and they're like, sorry, it's
Speaker 1: past the time you can return it. And I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I know what my son would do. I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, can I talk to a manager
Speaker 1: like I? I feel like I've been a customer for
Speaker 1: a long time, and you know, I really feel like
Speaker 1: this is in line with like what would be appropriate.
Speaker 1: And I actually was successful and so like all different areas.
Speaker 1: Instead of thinking my kids such a bad, spoiled kid,
Speaker 1: I was like, let me reparent the part of me
Speaker 1: that was such a pleaser and let me try to
Speaker 1: speak up. I remember also I was on the subway.
Speaker 1: I was like, really tired one day. Someone was taking
Speaker 1: up two seats and I was like, hey, can you
Speaker 1: move over? I really like to sit. That was definitely
Speaker 1: against the people pleasing part of me. And then sure
Speaker 1: enough it wasn't like I've never said those words to
Speaker 1: my kid. But the trigger moments really changed from that
Speaker 1: act of reparenting for me, and I think many in
Speaker 1: my generation we were afraid of our kids a little bit.
Speaker 1: We wanted them to like us. We wanted to be
Speaker 1: their friends. And I think there was such a switch
Speaker 1: and the parent child relationship from our parents too kind
Speaker 1: of acknowledging feelings, but to the point where we just
Speaker 1: wanted them to like us. So how do you get
Speaker 1: out of that spiral? How do you do enough disciplining?
Speaker 1: And I know that you want parents to be sturdy
Speaker 1: and strong and no nonsense about some issues, but also
Speaker 1: like that is a tough balance, isn't it, Because I
Speaker 1: think parents see it as one thing or another. Right,
Speaker 1: I want to be your friend or I am a parent, Right,
Speaker 1: Either I'm the I'm the kind of disciplinarian or your buddy.
Speaker 1: Right Again, it's like those two buckets were like, there's
Speaker 1: gotta be something in between, and a I think there is.
Speaker 1: So you know, I think a lot about what I
Speaker 1: call family jobs, right, And I'm sure you see this
Speaker 1: all the time. They are places you've worked, Like you
Speaker 1: can never hire someone to do a job well unless
Speaker 1: you've told them what their job is. And actually, I
Speaker 1: think having clarity as a parent of like what is
Speaker 1: my job? Like? What really what would I write down
Speaker 1: in my job description? Is really important? Because without that clarity,
Speaker 1: we can go to an extreme. So I think parents
Speaker 1: have two main sets of jobs. So one is, and
Speaker 1: you're kind of getting to this, it's validating and really
Speaker 1: kind of empathizing with our kids feelings. That matters. That
Speaker 1: actually is important because it's how kids learned to regulate
Speaker 1: those feelings throughout their lives. Kids can never learn to
Speaker 1: tolerate feelings that we can't tolerate in them. So when
Speaker 1: we say you wish you could have that toy, Oh
Speaker 1: you're really mad that I won't let you have that sleepover,
Speaker 1: that really matters. But the other part of our job
Speaker 1: mat are so much too, and that's setting and maintaining boundaries.
Speaker 1: And I'm really bad at that. It's hard because it
Speaker 1: goes back to I Fewer people please er people. Pleasers
Speaker 1: don't set boundaries for themselves. They actually look at who
Speaker 1: they to be for others, and they please others they
Speaker 1: keep people happy with them. And sure enough, the best
Speaker 1: way to keep someone at least in the moment happy
Speaker 1: with you is to have no boundaries. You just kind
Speaker 1: of float around. And by the way, it's easier and
Speaker 1: easier to tolerate for a parent because saying no is
Speaker 1: harder than saying yes, I think it's easier short term.
Speaker 1: Well that's what I mean, right, But but it also
Speaker 1: sets parents up for I think all this rage that
Speaker 1: parents talk about because yeah, it's easier short term because
Speaker 1: you just become a version of yourself your child in
Speaker 1: the moment wants you to be. But if you think
Speaker 1: about that, if you think about having no boundaries, if
Speaker 1: you think about an egg with no boundaries, guess what,
Speaker 1: there's no egg anymore. It's spilled out all over the place, right,
Speaker 1: So the shell in an egg it's like super important
Speaker 1: or else the egg ceases to be an egg. It
Speaker 1: just doesn't even have an identity. So I think I
Speaker 1: think one of the thing about boundaries that I like
Speaker 1: teaching parents as parents, like, well, what about consequences and discipline?
Speaker 1: I think true boundaries in somebody's like, they really replace
Speaker 1: consequences because what a boundary really is is it's a
Speaker 1: decision we make or something we do. But what's really
Speaker 1: important is boundaries tell our kids what we will do,
Speaker 1: and they require a kid to do nothing. And that's
Speaker 1: really important because whenever we set a boundary, we need
Speaker 1: to say to ourselves, okay, am I telling my kid
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do, and does this require my kid
Speaker 1: to do nothing? Telling a kid stop jumping on the
Speaker 1: couch is not a boundary. We think it's a boundary.
Speaker 1: It's not because it would require my kid to get
Speaker 1: off the couch to be successful saying to my kid, hey,
Speaker 1: it looks like you want to jump. I can't jump
Speaker 1: on the couch. Please get down, and then if they don't,
Speaker 1: saying hey, I'm gonna come over to you it looks
Speaker 1: like it's really hard to listen. I'm gonna take you
Speaker 1: off the couch and put you on the ground and
Speaker 1: you could go jump on the floor. Now that's boundary.
Speaker 1: My kid will probably cry. But if I remember, wait,
Speaker 1: my job is not just to see their feelings, which
Speaker 1: would be hey, you want to jump, but also my
Speaker 1: job is to set a boundary. Then at the end
Speaker 1: of a day, even if I'm tired, I could say
Speaker 1: to myself, Okay, I did my job well. I both
Speaker 1: set boundaries when I needed to, and I empathized and
Speaker 1: validated with my kids feelings. Instead of only doing one
Speaker 1: part of that job, which, even if it's easier in
Speaker 1: the short term, what leads to in the long term, right,
Speaker 1: is kids really don't learn how to manage their disappointment
Speaker 1: and frustration because they never had to tolerate it because
Speaker 1: we kind of like would take it away from them.
Speaker 1: When we come back screen time, bribing, and more parenting
Speaker 1: conundrums with Dr Becky, I think we can't have this
Speaker 1: conversation about parenting without talking about technology. I am so
Speaker 1: happy I grew up without technology. I am so happy
Speaker 1: that it was just coming to the forefront when my
Speaker 1: children were little, and I see a huge difference between
Speaker 1: my older daughter, who's four and a half years older
Speaker 1: than my younger daughter in terms of the role technology
Speaker 1: is played in their lives. I feel so bad for
Speaker 1: parents trying to figure this out because they're also probably
Speaker 1: having to deal with their own addictive behavior. So we
Speaker 1: could do three hours on this, but how do you
Speaker 1: help parents figure this out? Because I do think it's
Speaker 1: having such a terrible impact on kids their sense of
Speaker 1: self developing. There's not only it's it's sort of warping
Speaker 1: their self esteem. It's not giving them inner strength, it's
Speaker 1: giving them outer validation. I mean, what a mess, What
Speaker 1: a mess. It's so true. So in no ways do
Speaker 1: I have a complete solution for this. It's it's like
Speaker 1: I always say, like every parent feels awful about their
Speaker 1: screen time and technology usage in the house. So if
Speaker 1: you feel awful about it, I do too. It's just
Speaker 1: it's it's unwinnable. So I think there's a couple of
Speaker 1: things I think about. Number One, let's talk about your
Speaker 1: kids are young, right, So, you know, the thing with
Speaker 1: screen time when our kids are young that I think
Speaker 1: it's important to realize is it's just very very low effort,
Speaker 1: very very high reward moments. It's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: my kid can go like bing bing bing on like
Speaker 1: an iPad and have so much fun, or just watch
Speaker 1: something passively. And what I think we need to think
Speaker 1: about when our kids are young is how important it
Speaker 1: is to have screen time limits. And everyone's family that
Speaker 1: will look different, but what the limit allows for is
Speaker 1: for your kid to actually have more high effort, high
Speaker 1: reward moments, you know, like doing puzzles and reading and
Speaker 1: learning to interact with peers. It's hard compared to just
Speaker 1: watching a show or you know, having a video game.
Speaker 1: And so during these years and our kids are developing,
Speaker 1: I always encouraging I always encourage parents not to only
Speaker 1: think like how much TV is too much? Right, But
Speaker 1: it's more well, do what can I preserve time where
Speaker 1: my kid is actually learning the skills that they're going
Speaker 1: to need to learn in terms of managing frustration and
Speaker 1: things like that. So that how I think about when
Speaker 1: they're younger. As our kids get older, I think one
Speaker 1: of the most important things is just to develop an
Speaker 1: alliance with our kids as early as possible. We can't
Speaker 1: wait till our kids are ten or their team to
Speaker 1: start talking about screen time. And we have to think
Speaker 1: about this in a collaborative way with that with them,
Speaker 1: because they're going to get to an age where probably
Speaker 1: they do have a phone. And if that's the first
Speaker 1: time that we say, hey, let's talk about your usage,
Speaker 1: it seems too much like we don't have an alliance
Speaker 1: to lean on. So even when your kids are I
Speaker 1: don't know making this up six seven eight, I encourage
Speaker 1: parents to sit down with everyone's devices away and to say,
Speaker 1: let's talk about let's talk about screen time. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about what you like about it, let me hear you
Speaker 1: out what's your favorite part, and let's talk about why
Speaker 1: it can be like a little dangerous for all of us. Right,
Speaker 1: something I always talk about with my kids is do
Speaker 1: you notice that no matter how much there is, it
Speaker 1: feels like never enough. And I always say it feels
Speaker 1: like it's a cop with a hole in the bottom
Speaker 1: no matter how much screen time we have, right, we
Speaker 1: think if we put in more, it's going to fill
Speaker 1: us up, but it just always like it always always
Speaker 1: comes out like those are the conversations that again we're
Speaker 1: not fixing something. But now we have a common language, right,
Speaker 1: because if we go into those teenage years with our
Speaker 1: kids wanting to be on all the apps on TikTok,
Speaker 1: on snapchat, on you know, and and we haven't to
Speaker 1: that point talked about this stuff, then we definitely still can.
Speaker 1: But but it's really really hard. And then I think
Speaker 1: the other thing that I think at any age around
Speaker 1: technology is going back to boundaries. We have to be
Speaker 1: willing to tolerate our kids not being happy with us, right,
Speaker 1: And like that comes up over and over with screen time.
Speaker 1: You know, It's funny because when I was on the
Speaker 1: Today Show, we had a parenting expert named Dr Sylvia Rim.
Speaker 1: She wrote me a letter recently which just reminds me
Speaker 1: I need to write her back. But she talked about
Speaker 1: parenting as an inverted triangle that it's always easier to
Speaker 1: give kids more power and authority as they get older,
Speaker 1: but it's very hard to reduce it once you have.
Speaker 1: And I think the same goes with phones in screen
Speaker 1: time or really any kind of positive reinforcement, right, or
Speaker 1: it's not really positive reinforcement, um, any kind of I
Speaker 1: guess freedom in a way, Yeah, I guess I would think.
Speaker 1: I think two things about that. I think, Yes, of course,
Speaker 1: it's harder as they get older, especially as they get
Speaker 1: into those ages with their job is to start to
Speaker 1: feel more independent and separate from us. So raining in
Speaker 1: control when kids are developmentally supposed to be taking more
Speaker 1: control is tricky. But but I think I think there's
Speaker 1: another side that I say to parents often because I'll
Speaker 1: her parents say like, well, you know, I gave my
Speaker 1: kids this many hours of iPad use for my kid
Speaker 1: is free reign over their phone, Like what am I
Speaker 1: supposed to do now they're sixteen or now they're like
Speaker 1: we're always able to say to our kids some version
Speaker 1: of hey, I want to tell you about a decision
Speaker 1: I've made that I know you're not gonna like. And
Speaker 1: still I'm communicating to you, because it is super important
Speaker 1: in terms of just keeping everyone in this family safe.
Speaker 1: And I say this to my kids all the time, like,
Speaker 1: my number one job is to keep you safe, and
Speaker 1: I will always make decisions even if they're ones that
Speaker 1: you don't like, because I love you that much to
Speaker 1: tolerate your anger at me, to keep you safe and
Speaker 1: put you on a path that I think is important. Like,
Speaker 1: and I think we don't say that enough as parents.
Speaker 1: So maybe someone's listening to this and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I do feel like my six year old just
Speaker 1: watches too much TV. What can I do? You can say,
Speaker 1: you know, starting tomorrow you have this much TV instead.
Speaker 1: I know that's a change, and I know that's probably
Speaker 1: gonna be hard, and I'm already getting ready for the
Speaker 1: what it's already over. You're the worst. I'm ready for it.
Speaker 1: My number one job is to keep you safe, and
Speaker 1: right now, a version of safety is having less screen time.
Speaker 1: So we're going to make that change, even if you're upset, Like,
Speaker 1: but hard to do that, and when your kid is sixteen,
Speaker 1: it's harder. It is definitely harder. And I don't recommend,
Speaker 1: of course, at sixteen, you have these unilateral moments. But
Speaker 1: it might be saying to your sixth year old, Hey,
Speaker 1: we need to have a family meeting because phone us
Speaker 1: has gotten out of control, and maybe you think my
Speaker 1: phone use has to It's like we're all at the
Speaker 1: table together on our phones. I'm willing to hear that.
Speaker 1: But what I know is we need some changes. I
Speaker 1: know those changes are gonna be hard on everyone. I
Speaker 1: also know where a family who can do hard things
Speaker 1: when they're in everyone's best interest. So let's come to
Speaker 1: that meeting with ideas. Let's go into that meeting knowing
Speaker 1: we're each gonna have to compromise a little bit. And
Speaker 1: let's go into that meeting knowing we all love each
Speaker 1: other and we're going to figure this out. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's a kind of leader, Like organizations make change sometimes, right,
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of random and bring this up. But
Speaker 1: I just read that amazing letter from the CEO of
Speaker 1: Stripe announcing layoffs and what they're doing, and I mean,
Speaker 1: just it was amazing lesson in starting this, like, here's
Speaker 1: some not great news, here's news that people are gonna
Speaker 1: not like the hear. But I'm gonna be direct. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna tell you what's happening, and I'm also going to
Speaker 1: tell you I have confidence we're gonna get to the
Speaker 1: other side. And it was it's so holding to hear
Speaker 1: a communication like that. And I think you're so right
Speaker 1: about looking at your own behavior. Because my daughter came
Speaker 1: over last night. I hadn't seen her for a while,
Speaker 1: and she said, Mom, you have a real problem with
Speaker 1: your phone. I came in and you barely looked up.
Speaker 1: And I said, I just wanted to finish this in
Speaker 1: Instagram posts that I've been working on, and like, she said, really,
Speaker 1: you you have a problem. I think about this a lot,
Speaker 1: Katie like, and it makes me it always actually I
Speaker 1: try not to make it make me feel guilty. I
Speaker 1: use it to be motivated to make a slight change
Speaker 1: with my own kids. When I was a kid, when
Speaker 1: I was my kid's age, right, my kids are five,
Speaker 1: eight eleven, and I was with my parents, I would think,
Speaker 1: like our parents, maybe this was you when you were
Speaker 1: raising your kids. They had to work hard to be distracted.
Speaker 1: For me, they would have had to open the New
Speaker 1: York Times and read the paper to like block me out.
Speaker 1: And now, like, if I think about the percentage of
Speaker 1: time with my kids too, that kids look at their
Speaker 1: parents and there's literally a phone in between them blocking
Speaker 1: that connection. I think the percentage is like disturbingly high.
Speaker 1: And then when we think about kids, behave your kids
Speaker 1: need connection to feel safe more than anything else. They
Speaker 1: want to feel close to us a very high percentage
Speaker 1: of time, there's literally the screen they see the back
Speaker 1: of our phones right before they see our face. Then
Speaker 1: they get more just regulated, right. And so when I
Speaker 1: think about that myself, what what I do? I literally
Speaker 1: call it something just to make it fun and not
Speaker 1: guilt inducing for me, I'm like, my kids need P
Speaker 1: and P time. It's just play no phone, play no phone.
Speaker 1: And I say that to my kids. Hey, you've probably
Speaker 1: noticed I'm on my phone a lot. I'm putting it
Speaker 1: behind two doors because I need two doors, Like one
Speaker 1: doesn't work for me, of course. And I said, and
Speaker 1: I'm all yours. We could do anything you want to
Speaker 1: do and play dough, a game, whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: I'm just fully present. And for any parent listening, you
Speaker 1: don't have to say, Okay, I'm not gonna be on
Speaker 1: my phone for a week. You can even say I'm
Speaker 1: gonna give my kids five moments of this like PN
Speaker 1: p time when I wouldn't usually in a day, and
Speaker 1: it really does start to make a big shift. I
Speaker 1: remember when Susan Surrandon and Tim Robbins were married, and
Speaker 1: this was predated iPhones. They would not answer their phone landlines.
Speaker 1: This is how long ago it was, between five and eight,
Speaker 1: and I thought that's so great, Like they would just
Speaker 1: push out any kind of external distraction so they could
Speaker 1: really focus on your on their kids. And I you like,
Speaker 1: that's something that's really important to do now more than
Speaker 1: ever because it is so accessible and ubiquitous. I think
Speaker 1: that's right, and I think for all of us. But
Speaker 1: there might be a work emergency or something we can say,
Speaker 1: like you know, well we can have a family emergy.
Speaker 1: I mean there there's there is like this. I don't
Speaker 1: an emergency. I'm not like such a I don't like
Speaker 1: to like stoke fear. But like our our kids need
Speaker 1: our time. We don't want it to get to a
Speaker 1: point where there's an emergency with them, right, and we
Speaker 1: have to protect going back to boundaries, like we need
Speaker 1: boundaries around some of time with our kid for sure.
Speaker 1: More with Dr Becky. Right after this, let me go
Speaker 1: through a couple of quick questions, we got do it?
Speaker 1: My type A friends have questions about what you call
Speaker 1: df k s, Yes, deeply feeling kids. What do you
Speaker 1: do if you have a deeply feeling child but you
Speaker 1: are also a deeply feeling adult. That's a bad combo,
Speaker 1: I'm assuming I don't think it's a bad combo. I
Speaker 1: think that actually, this is like the highest percentage of
Speaker 1: the members in our membership are just this. They like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're like I watched the Deeply Feeling Kids Workshop and
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize how much like it was. It
Speaker 1: was healing for me, you know, because I realized, you know,
Speaker 1: the type of kid I was so deeply feeling kids
Speaker 1: or kids who really do feel things more intensely than
Speaker 1: other kids. I always think they have like bigger pores.
Speaker 1: That's how I visualize it. So more comes in, and
Speaker 1: somebodys are also scared of more of them spilling out.
Speaker 1: And so if you have a deeply feeling kid and
Speaker 1: you are a deeply feeling adult, and I like to
Speaker 1: be a straight shooter, I'd say, like, actually that reparenting work.
Speaker 1: Like when I in in our good inside system, the
Speaker 1: Reparenting Workshop plus the Deeply Feeling Kids workshop are are
Speaker 1: completely game changing for parents because it goes back to
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I first, I have to kind of
Speaker 1: do some of that rewiring and repairing and um, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of work inside myself that helps me show up differently.
Speaker 1: And then deeply feeling kids really do need different strategies
Speaker 1: and other kids because they reject kind of most of
Speaker 1: the things that help other kids. And there's nothing there's
Speaker 1: there's very little. I'm as proud of is our Deeply
Speaker 1: Feeling Kids Workshop. It lays it all outstep by step
Speaker 1: for people. Okay, so people should watch that if they
Speaker 1: need to know more about it. Um, have you gotten
Speaker 1: much backlash to this sort of good inside philosophy, which
Speaker 1: is basically a rejection of original sin, right that people
Speaker 1: are inherently good? I mean it's hard to think that,
Speaker 1: especially in the world we're living in right now, Becky.
Speaker 1: So what if people said about that philosophy? And I
Speaker 1: guess you got into it a little bit with Glenn
Speaker 1: and Doyle a little and I every once in a while,
Speaker 1: not too often, get a d M that says something
Speaker 1: like this is at odds with like my deeply held
Speaker 1: religious beliefs. You know, Um, you know, and I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't have great knowledge of religion. That's definitely not
Speaker 1: where I you know, flex so um. But but other
Speaker 1: people have said, you know, a big part of our
Speaker 1: approach is this idea of holding multiple truths at once,
Speaker 1: this idea of two things are true, which are electic
Speaker 1: thinking dialectic thinking, and it relates to holding boundaries with
Speaker 1: kids even you know, like, wait, two things are true,
Speaker 1: Like I'm in charge of this decision, you're in charge
Speaker 1: of your feelings. Like we're both doing good job. But
Speaker 1: I think the idea that babies are born with inherent
Speaker 1: goodness and that also we all need a lot of
Speaker 1: help along the way, right we all? You know, to me,
Speaker 1: that's how we can hold those both at once, or
Speaker 1: to bring out the good in us, even if it's
Speaker 1: not all good, that's exactly right, to bring it out,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. One person wants to know what's what
Speaker 1: are the best ways to incentivize and reward good behavior
Speaker 1: and hard work and discourage slash punish bad behavior, bad attitudes.
Speaker 1: And I think she's asking this because she relies quite
Speaker 1: heavily on bribery, and she says, I don't think that's
Speaker 1: great yeah, I mean, and I think I do see
Speaker 1: this a lot like the sticker charts, the rewards, the
Speaker 1: prize is that you get this for doing your homework.
Speaker 1: You know what it leads to understandably as kids who
Speaker 1: has say older say like I'm not doing that, Well,
Speaker 1: what's my prize? What are you gonna give me for
Speaker 1: cleaning up my room? What are you gonna give me
Speaker 1: for doing homework? I don't think any of us want
Speaker 1: to be in that situation when our kids are older
Speaker 1: and so bribery these kind of quote incentives, which really
Speaker 1: just means external incentives. I think. I think we shoot
Speaker 1: ourselves in the foot the more we use them. And
Speaker 1: so it goes back to changing things. Like we can
Speaker 1: always say to our kids like, hey, I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for a while, and you know what I'm stopping.
Speaker 1: I'm stopping. And here's why. I know you have it
Speaker 1: in you and I know you want to be a
Speaker 1: good student, like even if homeworks hard, like you're you're
Speaker 1: a good kid, you like learning things. I know you
Speaker 1: have responsibility in you and you can be a responsible
Speaker 1: member of our family. And just like you see me
Speaker 1: cleaning up my room, like I know you have it
Speaker 1: in you to do that. So I think first, like
Speaker 1: I often think about this visual like I need to
Speaker 1: see the good in my kid before they can access
Speaker 1: it themselves. And actually, every time we like bribe the kid,
Speaker 1: we kind of say, like, I think you're someone who
Speaker 1: needs to be coerced into doing a good behavior doesn't
Speaker 1: feel good, actually, but I do think that when kids
Speaker 1: are really little. I have a friend whose child had
Speaker 1: to wear a mask for an interview and they wouldn't
Speaker 1: let the child apply or be a part of a
Speaker 1: program without that, And my friend bought her son a
Speaker 1: toy in order to get him to wear a mask.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's some stage developmentally kids don't really understand
Speaker 1: reason and you can't really reason with them. But I
Speaker 1: actually think kids never listen because of reason. I don't
Speaker 1: think a lot of times we do either, I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a bigger topic talking about, like why
Speaker 1: kids cooperate and listen. And certainly I'm not rigid. There
Speaker 1: are moments of course you're like I need this to
Speaker 1: happen with my kid. It's this one off thing. I too,
Speaker 1: would give myself plenty of permission to be like, hey
Speaker 1: do this, I'll get you ice creams, please do it.
Speaker 1: Of course we have those moments, but I think we
Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves as parents, is this something one
Speaker 1: off I give myself permission to do here there, or
Speaker 1: this in general? This strategy that I'm using over and
Speaker 1: over and over to get cooperation from my kids, or
Speaker 1: to have my kids do things that they clearly don't
Speaker 1: even have intrinsic motivation to do. Like my kid does
Speaker 1: not do their homework unless I offer them candy at
Speaker 1: the end, Like, well, that's different to me than Okay,
Speaker 1: I need them to put their seatbelt on on the
Speaker 1: airplane and avoid a big tantrum, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: here's all the snacks in the world. Do it. So
Speaker 1: I think I think that's like a different category. I
Speaker 1: think though we do need a different system, and it's
Speaker 1: a system, it's not a moment for understanding why do
Speaker 1: kids cooperate? Why do kids do things they don't want
Speaker 1: to do? Why do kids do homework? What's getting in
Speaker 1: a kid's way of doing homework? Probably not that they're
Speaker 1: not getting a prize. I wonder if they have frustration
Speaker 1: tolerance skills, Do they have the skills to organize and
Speaker 1: plan things? Do they feel stupid compared to the other
Speaker 1: kids in their class. Are they perfectionistic and they're worried
Speaker 1: about getting things wrong? So without a bribe, how do
Speaker 1: you get kids to cooperate? So are you saying you
Speaker 1: find the root causes of their lack of cooperation? I mean,
Speaker 1: I think, why do any of us cooperate? Right? Like,
Speaker 1: why would I go get my husband a glass of
Speaker 1: water when we're both sitting on the couch if you
Speaker 1: asked me versus saying like, get yourself water? Right? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: I think it has to do with how how seen
Speaker 1: we feel by someone, how connected we feel the state
Speaker 1: of our relationship in that moment, and in a lot
Speaker 1: of situations, the skills we have. Right. So, if my
Speaker 1: kid isn't cleaning up their room, let's say that that's
Speaker 1: a situation, and I'm like, okay, I'll give you dessert
Speaker 1: or whatever. I'll give you this bribe if you clean
Speaker 1: up your room. I'm not actually getting to like, well,
Speaker 1: why it's not just cleaning up the room. Why aren't
Speaker 1: they doing something that I want them to do? Right? So,
Speaker 1: maybe part of it is organization, Like they need help,
Speaker 1: they need a visual on their on their wall, right, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: after you get home, you put your book back away,
Speaker 1: you clean up your room, we have dinner. I don't know,
Speaker 1: there could actually be an organization skill that's missing. Maybe
Speaker 1: my kid feels so controlled by me and we get
Speaker 1: in fights so often that not cleaning their room is
Speaker 1: there one way of saying like fuck you, you know,
Speaker 1: basically on my own person, and this is one area
Speaker 1: of my life I can control, So I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: not clean it up to send you the message. Then
Speaker 1: I would say we need a very different intervention, right,
Speaker 1: that's like, okay, well what needs you're pairing in your relationship?
Speaker 1: And I think these things we hear it as parents,
Speaker 1: and I know I rolled my eyes to him, like, oh,
Speaker 1: that seems like so much time. I was going to
Speaker 1: say it sounds exhausting, but but you know what's really
Speaker 1: exhausting is when we bribe and punish and reward our
Speaker 1: kids way through their first thirteen years of our life,
Speaker 1: their life, and then we have a thirteen year old
Speaker 1: who we have no relationship with, and those kids do
Speaker 1: not talk to us about social media. Those kids do
Speaker 1: not respect a curfew. Those kids do not tell us
Speaker 1: when they're in dangerous situations with other kids, because for
Speaker 1: thirteen years of our life we've been bribing them and
Speaker 1: coursing them instead of developing a relationship with them. And
Speaker 1: when you develop a relationship with them, which does not
Speaker 1: mean giving them everything they want, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: again firm boundaries while recognizing the validity of their reactions.
Speaker 1: Then we get to a situation where we can say
Speaker 1: to our kids, hey, I notice you're not cleaning up
Speaker 1: your room. And here's the thing, Like, there must be
Speaker 1: something getting in the way. And you know, in our
Speaker 1: house we take these things seriously. You have some stuff
Speaker 1: in your room we have to take care of. I do.
Speaker 1: So let's just get to the bottom of this together.
Speaker 1: What might make you clean it up, what might make
Speaker 1: it easier? Like and and then like literally, this does happen.
Speaker 1: It's not a fantasy where kids are like, oh, look,
Speaker 1: I just always forget okay, what a schedule? Help? Oh
Speaker 1: it's no fun. I know this is not you know,
Speaker 1: it's not that fun. Would it be a little more
Speaker 1: fun if we, like, I don't know, put on a
Speaker 1: song in our house and like kind of we had
Speaker 1: music on and you cleaned your room at the same
Speaker 1: time I cleaned my room. You know, like, let's think
Speaker 1: about this together. I mean that's just in general, dada
Speaker 1: of collaborative problem solving, which number one is more effective?
Speaker 1: Number two preserves your relationship with your kid, and number
Speaker 1: three actually sets them up to develop the skills they
Speaker 1: need so when they're twenty and up and out of
Speaker 1: your house, they can function as adults. This is the
Speaker 1: last question. I mean, I could talk about this all day.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting, um, And it's making me think about
Speaker 1: all the things I did wrong. No, no, no, no wrong.
Speaker 1: Rethinking is not about being wrong. It's about considering new
Speaker 1: ideas that that makes sense to you. Now, that's all
Speaker 1: if they do. Um, one person who went through a
Speaker 1: contentious divorce, and apparently, I guess a lot of people
Speaker 1: with young kids got divorced post pandemic. Um, she asked selfishly.
Speaker 1: I'd like to know how you manage kids who have
Speaker 1: to live in two totally different houses because of shared custody.
Speaker 1: How do you help them reset when they get to
Speaker 1: your house if where they're coming from is so different.
Speaker 1: I bet a lot of people are talking about that sadly. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I'd want to say that Number one I wish
Speaker 1: I could do full justice to this. Obviously, this is
Speaker 1: like a complex situation that there's not one quick easy
Speaker 1: answer to. And actually, time and divorce is something I
Speaker 1: care a lot about because of course it happens to
Speaker 1: a lot of kids. So a couple of just quick
Speaker 1: ideas about it. Number One, it's totally normal for kids
Speaker 1: to struggle in those transitional moments they are living, leaving
Speaker 1: one world with one set of rules and something they've
Speaker 1: adjusted to in that relationship, and they have to make
Speaker 1: a complete switch. Right, It's like a different house, it's
Speaker 1: different rules, it's different parents. It's so just understanding, Okay,
Speaker 1: my kids, not my kids, not like a difficult kid.
Speaker 1: This is just a lot. And that doesn't mean you're
Speaker 1: messing up your kids. I think we we we do that.
Speaker 1: We're like, oh so I'm messing up my kids forever,
Speaker 1: They're gonna be messed up for It might be helpful though,
Speaker 1: if they're similar rules in each house, right, And I
Speaker 1: think the reality, especially if it's a contentious divorces, it's
Speaker 1: hard to communicate, right, So, um, so just understanding that
Speaker 1: because then what happens is when you get your kids
Speaker 1: in your house, right, instead of saying like okay, dinner time,
Speaker 1: You'll be like, you know, I'm gonna I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: build in like fifteen minutes of like having a hard
Speaker 1: time time. I'm just gonna like build it in so
Speaker 1: I don't add my own frustration. So knowing that really
Speaker 1: helps Number two. I think this is really important. Communicating
Speaker 1: with our kids directly about this change without needing to
Speaker 1: fix it. Just naming it is key. And I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times as parents we don't communicate until
Speaker 1: we have an answer. With our kids. They don't often
Speaker 1: need answers, they just need someone to name what's happening.
Speaker 1: Just I always say name what's true. So saying to
Speaker 1: our kids, hey, it's probably tricky to go from dad's
Speaker 1: house to my house. Right, It's probably hard to go
Speaker 1: from one house and they do things one way and
Speaker 1: they have to get in the car. I know it
Speaker 1: wasn't too long ago before we all lived in the
Speaker 1: same house and I have two and that that's hard,
Speaker 1: and I get that that, but that does to a
Speaker 1: kid's body. Is it just makes a kid feel like, ah, yes,
Speaker 1: that is what's happening for me. Somebody understands me. I'm
Speaker 1: not alone in this experience. This can be talked about hugely,
Speaker 1: hugely helpful. I think that one of the things I
Speaker 1: tend to do is I'm a fixer. And I think
Speaker 1: we've touched on this a lot in this conversation. But
Speaker 1: sometimes you just in order to make kids feel seen
Speaker 1: and heard. That doesn't mean your default is fixing. And
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to solve problems, and sometimes people just
Speaker 1: want to be heard and seen and and share their
Speaker 1: feelings with out and that have their feelings validated. That
Speaker 1: is a really bad habit of mine. I'm like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: what are we going to do to solve this problem?
Speaker 1: And then sometimes it exacerbates the feelings of anger and
Speaker 1: frustration because I've automatically gone to how are we going
Speaker 1: to make this better instead of just sitting in the
Speaker 1: discomfort of having someone upset. And I think that's like
Speaker 1: I think, I think all of us do that. And
Speaker 1: to me again, in these hard moments, visuals really really help.
Speaker 1: And you said a word that evokes a visual for me.
Speaker 1: So when people are really upset and I tried to
Speaker 1: do my kids, I'm less good at doing at my
Speaker 1: husband working on it right like I picture him, or
Speaker 1: you can picture your daughter like sitting on a bench,
Speaker 1: literally sitting on a bench, and it's the bench of
Speaker 1: whatever upsetting thing happens, and the bench of I wasn't
Speaker 1: invited to this, or the bench of this thing at
Speaker 1: my workplace didn't go the way I wanted, or I
Speaker 1: don't feel successful. I don't feel successful. That's a great example.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting on the bench of not feeling successful. And
Speaker 1: if everyone thinks about their urges, we often have the
Speaker 1: urge to do one of two things. Either want to
Speaker 1: yank them off that bench because we see a like
Speaker 1: happier bench, so we say things like, but look at
Speaker 1: this and what about this and think about it this way?
Speaker 1: Or why don't you do this exactly right? So what
Speaker 1: what that images is like? We find them on the
Speaker 1: bench of not feeling successful, and we like try to
Speaker 1: yank them off, or we try to convince them. I
Speaker 1: always think like their bench isn't their bench? We're like,
Speaker 1: but what are you talking about? You have a great job,
Speaker 1: right and like so either way, Katie, going back to
Speaker 1: that theme of a loneness being the hardest thing the
Speaker 1: next on the bench next to on the bench, that's
Speaker 1: exactly right. And I think as a parent or as
Speaker 1: a partner. You just know. You don't need someone to
Speaker 1: tell you. You just know internally, like the way you're responding,
Speaker 1: you know whether you're sitting with them or you're taking
Speaker 1: them off, because sitting is someways it's so simple, that's
Speaker 1: so hard you say, like, oh, I'm glad you're talking
Speaker 1: to me about this, or tell me more, or that
Speaker 1: I mean or that sounds really hard, like to feel
Speaker 1: that way right, or oh like well when does that
Speaker 1: come up for you recently? I want to learn more
Speaker 1: about out it Like it's just yeah, you're literally sitting
Speaker 1: on that bench, and that's that's what people want. And
Speaker 1: I actually think that's what resilience building is because then
Speaker 1: you're child. The next time they feel that they have
Speaker 1: literally encoded your support around them, they're less alone. And
Speaker 1: I always think you can't take away the hard, but
Speaker 1: we can always take away the alone. And every time
Speaker 1: we fix it, ironically, the next time a kid feels
Speaker 1: that way, all they remember is being alone on the bench.
Speaker 1: They don't remember our solution because they just wanted someone
Speaker 1: present there. So yes, all of us can be me too,
Speaker 1: can be a little bit better at bench sitting. I
Speaker 1: wonder why I'm so bad at it. I wonder if
Speaker 1: I have a hard time dealing with my own sadness
Speaker 1: and my own bad feelings about myself, and you make
Speaker 1: yourself off well, which can go back to intergenerational patterns
Speaker 1: like well, okay, if that's hard for me to sit
Speaker 1: and feelings, and again, problem solving can be super I'm
Speaker 1: like that too. I'm quick to action and that can
Speaker 1: work for us, but sometimes sometimes not. And so yes,
Speaker 1: if people had a hard time sitting on our benches
Speaker 1: with us, we have a hard time sitting on our
Speaker 1: own we see in our kid we have a hard
Speaker 1: time sitting with them until we make some small shifts
Speaker 1: and then end up making really powerful intergenerational change as
Speaker 1: a result. Well, I can see why you're called the
Speaker 1: parent whisperer whatever people call you. I don't know who
Speaker 1: actually called me that people call me that somebody does,
Speaker 1: but Dr Becky Kennedy. The book is called Good Inside,
Speaker 1: a guide to becoming the parent you want to be,
Speaker 1: And also I would add the person you want to be,
Speaker 1: because these are skills that you can use every day
Speaker 1: with all the important people in your life. I completely agree.
Speaker 1: Thank you, It's been such a treat to talk to
Speaker 1: you hope it's not the last time. Next Question with
Speaker 1: Katie Kurik is a production of My Heart Media and
Speaker 1: Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Curic,
Speaker 1: and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate
Speaker 1: producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited
Speaker 1: and mixed by Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode,
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call,
Speaker 1: go to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: me at Katie Curreic on Instagram and all my social
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