1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin m and so I picked Penelope up, basically picked 2 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 1: myself up, and moved moved us into Penelope's room. When 3 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 1: we sat on the floor cross legged, and I looked 4 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: into Penelope's eyes and I asked this question, what's really wrong, baby? 5 00:00:46,476 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 1: Why are you so angry? Just that? What's wrong? And 6 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:56,276 Speaker 1: why are you so angry? And it was it was 7 00:00:56,276 --> 00:01:00,996 Speaker 1: a million dollar question. Penelope opened up in a way 8 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:06,316 Speaker 1: I'd not seen ever, eyes filled with tears, and Penelope 9 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 1: said the most like phenomenal words I'd never even considered. Mama. 10 00:01:14,996 --> 00:01:19,036 Speaker 1: Everyone thinks I'm a girl, and I'm not. I am 11 00:01:19,116 --> 00:01:23,156 Speaker 1: a boy. Jody Patterson remembers sitting there on the ground 12 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:25,956 Speaker 1: with Penelope, who was just shy if three years old 13 00:01:25,956 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 1: at the time. Jody was filled with a mix of emotions, 14 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: grateful that her child felt comfortable sharing his true gender 15 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:36,476 Speaker 1: identity with her, but also fearful of all the unknowns 16 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:39,956 Speaker 1: and changes that lay ahead for her son. What Jody 17 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 1: didn't anticipate, however, were the changes she would undergo as well. 18 00:01:44,876 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: If my daughter was actually my son, what else in 19 00:01:48,636 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 1: the world don't I know? It felt like there's a 20 00:01:52,636 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 1: lot that I had not learned and so I went 21 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:57,996 Speaker 1: on to quest to learn more, and that learning not 22 00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:00,196 Speaker 1: only gave me insight to my son and to the 23 00:02:00,316 --> 00:02:04,716 Speaker 1: millions of trans people that exist, but also to myself. 24 00:02:08,596 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 1: On Today Show, a mother discovers herself after her son 25 00:02:12,396 --> 00:02:16,716 Speaker 1: shows her how I'm maya Shunker and this is a 26 00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 1: slight change of plans, A show about who we are 27 00:02:19,556 --> 00:02:31,036 Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change. 28 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:38,796 Speaker 1: Jody Patterson grew up on New York's Upper West Side 29 00:02:38,836 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 1: in a family of black activists. Doctor Martin Luther King 30 00:02:42,676 --> 00:02:46,556 Speaker 1: Junior named Jody's grandmother Miss Revolution for her work in 31 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:51,036 Speaker 1: the segregated South. Jody's uncle was a legendary poet and musician, 32 00:02:51,196 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 1: Gil Scott Heron. Her father started the first black brokerage 33 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: firm on Wall Street, and her mother opened a private 34 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:01,836 Speaker 1: school for black families in Harlem. Jody was surrounded from 35 00:03:01,836 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 1: an early age by people who pushed against the status quo, 36 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:07,636 Speaker 1: and she was eager to pass that ethos on to 37 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: her own children. Today, Jodie's mom to five kids, but 38 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: we started our conversation by talking about what life was 39 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:19,196 Speaker 1: like for her. Just before Penelope, who now goes by Pinell, 40 00:03:19,636 --> 00:03:23,236 Speaker 1: arrived on the scene. Jodie had two little kids already, 41 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 1: a boy and a girl, and on paper, at least, 42 00:03:26,236 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: her life was filling up with all of the things 43 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 1: she had hoped for. We were living in the heart 44 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,236 Speaker 1: of New York City, in the Soho right the heart 45 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: of the heart of the world. We had a lot 46 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:39,996 Speaker 1: of resources, a lot of love, we had beautiful home, 47 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 1: We traveled a lot, and at the same time it 48 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:51,476 Speaker 1: was a really confusing time, really confusing time for me. 49 00:03:51,516 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 1: I didn't know enough, not nearly enough. Yeah, what did 50 00:03:56,116 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: you feel you didn't know enough about? Probably myself. I 51 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 1: was still feeling unaccomplished, unsure, not quite satiated, like there 52 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:13,436 Speaker 1: was just a want for more and I couldn't put 53 00:04:13,436 --> 00:04:17,876 Speaker 1: my hand on it. It definitely was not lack of love, 54 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 1: but I still couldn't figure out why, with all of 55 00:04:21,876 --> 00:04:27,916 Speaker 1: this stuff that we had beautiful, healthy children, beautiful access 56 00:04:27,956 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 1: to the world, beautiful home, why I was feeling not 57 00:04:33,436 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: quite full. When you first found out that you were 58 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 1: pregnant with Canell, what dreams did you have for your baby? Well, I, 59 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:48,796 Speaker 1: from when I was a kid, I always wanted to 60 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:51,476 Speaker 1: be a mother. The three things I wanted to be 61 00:04:51,516 --> 00:04:57,036 Speaker 1: were a mother, a businesswoman in a suit and a teacher. 62 00:04:58,076 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 1: So having children was something that I've always wanted, and 63 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:05,596 Speaker 1: I was so excited to be pregnant for the third time. 64 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 1: I was also thinking, Gosh, you're already so blessed, maybe 65 00:05:11,196 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 1: maybe there are no more blessings coming. So I was 66 00:05:14,276 --> 00:05:19,836 Speaker 1: fearful that this wouldn't be a perfect baby. Yeah, I know, 67 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:22,036 Speaker 1: it's one of those things I always think of, how 68 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 1: can I be blessed again? How can God give me 69 00:05:24,236 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 1: one more blessing? And so I'm always I was very 70 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:33,196 Speaker 1: nervous around that. And then I was excited because I 71 00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:37,396 Speaker 1: really loved the two children I had, and I was 72 00:05:37,436 --> 00:05:42,716 Speaker 1: expecting this one to be just as freaking phenomenal. So 73 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:46,276 Speaker 1: the biggest feeling was excitement. I would have to say, 74 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:50,236 Speaker 1: and the doctor tells you that you're having a girl, right, 75 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:54,796 Speaker 1: do you have any visions of what that would look like? Oh? 76 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 1: I was so excited. You know, I come from four girls, 77 00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:00,716 Speaker 1: or four of us, so I have three sisters and 78 00:06:00,916 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: my mom has sisters, and I just love the women 79 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: in our family. I was so excited to have a girl. 80 00:06:07,396 --> 00:06:11,596 Speaker 1: I had all these girl names. Big sister Georgia was excited, 81 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: sort of to have a sister a little jealous, She's like, 82 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:20,436 Speaker 1: you know, this could ruin my whole princess thing. But 83 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 1: this just the idea of all the rituals that we 84 00:06:24,316 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: would be doing together. We did a lot of hair 85 00:06:26,276 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 1: rituals in my family. We did a lot of quiet 86 00:06:30,316 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 1: private time with just the girls and the women in 87 00:06:33,156 --> 00:06:35,916 Speaker 1: my family. We have a lot of auntie celebrations with 88 00:06:35,996 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 1: just women. So there was like this real anticipation of 89 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 1: raising and spending time with and building up another strong, 90 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 1: confident woman because I think the world needs more of that. 91 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:54,796 Speaker 1: And so this was like, not only was I going 92 00:06:54,836 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 1: to have another blessing in the family, but like another 93 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:00,236 Speaker 1: gift to the world, Right, That's what I was thinking of. Yeah, 94 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 1: it wasn't long before you realize that Kennel was different 95 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 1: from your other kids. When was the first time you 96 00:07:07,996 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 1: realize that that's something? So, you know, once we got 97 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:17,756 Speaker 1: home and brought baby Penelope home, Penelope was just bubbly, 98 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: I mean, tons of smiles. Sometimes we'd you know, panel 99 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:25,156 Speaker 1: would crawl up onto the dishwasher and like sit inside 100 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:29,676 Speaker 1: the dishwasher. There was just Penelope was so phenomenal as 101 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:32,796 Speaker 1: a baby. Everything you would want to see moving and 102 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:37,396 Speaker 1: physical and smiley and inquisitive even as a little child. 103 00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: But I think the first time when I started to 104 00:07:42,396 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: see that there was a energy and Penell that was 105 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 1: not settled was around the first birthday. You know, you're 106 00:07:53,796 --> 00:07:55,396 Speaker 1: you're trying to learn so much about your kid in 107 00:07:55,436 --> 00:07:57,596 Speaker 1: the beginning, your baby in the beginning. But by birthday 108 00:07:57,676 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 1: number one, I knew something was different. You know, Penelope 109 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: was not comfortable with physical touch. So even putting on 110 00:08:08,916 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: a diaper needed two parents. I'd have to just like 111 00:08:12,756 --> 00:08:15,116 Speaker 1: call in for backup. We'd have to have people hold 112 00:08:15,276 --> 00:08:18,156 Speaker 1: the baby down so that Mama myself could put the 113 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:22,276 Speaker 1: diaper on. Penelope was not a certain point, became less 114 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: snuggly with me. Penelope would push me away and say, no, Mama, no, 115 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 1: I'm not talking to you, which mean I'm not talking 116 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:37,556 Speaker 1: to you. Penelle wanted to be abound big brother and 117 00:08:37,636 --> 00:08:40,516 Speaker 1: dad way more than me, and I was not used 118 00:08:40,516 --> 00:08:43,116 Speaker 1: to that. All my kids are really snuggly with me 119 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:47,196 Speaker 1: in the beginning, and so Penelope was rejecting mama, rejecting 120 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:50,556 Speaker 1: mama's touch, And then it became a little bit more 121 00:08:51,196 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 1: layered than that. It would be rejecting dresses, rejecting hair brushing, 122 00:08:57,876 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 1: rejecting certain shoes, rejecting toothbrushes. Penelope never wanted to use 123 00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: Penelope's toothbrush. Penelope wanted to use big brother's toothbrush. Same 124 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 1: thing with dips, shirts, jeans. So we had this toddler 125 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:18,156 Speaker 1: running around the house with big brothers clothes draping off 126 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:21,556 Speaker 1: of baby Penelope, and it was the only those are 127 00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:23,636 Speaker 1: the only things that could make a Penelope happy. There 128 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: was nothing that would see the Penelope more than putting 129 00:09:25,796 --> 00:09:32,276 Speaker 1: on big brothers T shirt. And then eventually, by the 130 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 1: second year of Penelope was a bully at home and 131 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:40,076 Speaker 1: at the playground, so pushing siblings around, pushing kids at 132 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:44,876 Speaker 1: the playground, stomping, screaming. We did a whole year of 133 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:52,156 Speaker 1: just screaming, screaming, screaming, then reoccurring nightmares the monster's going 134 00:09:52,236 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 1: to get me, mama, Then writing fingernails until the fingers 135 00:09:56,236 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 1: are bloody. You know, it was sort of it was 136 00:10:00,796 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 1: progressing more so than temper tantrum. You know, when you 137 00:10:06,556 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 1: have a mother of multiple temper tantrums don't get you, 138 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,516 Speaker 1: they don't frazzle you too much. But this was much 139 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:15,636 Speaker 1: more than a temperate tantrum. This was a heavy, heavy child. 140 00:10:16,796 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 1: So most of that year, that second year was frustrating. 141 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:20,836 Speaker 1: We couldn't get out of the house. I couldn't get 142 00:10:20,836 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: to work, I couldn't get the kids to school. I 143 00:10:23,596 --> 00:10:28,516 Speaker 1: was feeling very frustrated with the way I was mothering. 144 00:10:28,556 --> 00:10:30,636 Speaker 1: I couldn't figure it out. Trying to fix it, and 145 00:10:30,636 --> 00:10:34,796 Speaker 1: I couldn't figure it out. Yeah, you were in problem 146 00:10:34,836 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: solver mode, right, I said, more nap time, more love, 147 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 1: more hugs and kisses, more story time. I even talk 148 00:10:42,516 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 1: out dairy. I said, maybe it's about the diet. Maybe 149 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: this is all just a dairy allergy. Anything that I 150 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 1: could think of, everything that my mom did that I 151 00:10:50,436 --> 00:10:54,196 Speaker 1: thought was great parenting, everything that my grandmother did that 152 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 1: I thought was great parenting, and nothing was working. So 153 00:10:58,636 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 1: I was I was angry. Yeah, yeah, no, I completely 154 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:05,116 Speaker 1: understand that, and I would just feel so defeated, you know, 155 00:11:06,316 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 1: because you were so experimental with your approaches. At some 156 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:14,556 Speaker 1: point you realize that while you're able to pacify Penell 157 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:18,916 Speaker 1: at times and force obedience at other times, there's perhaps 158 00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 1: something deeper going on, because Penell still seems so troubled 159 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 1: day to day, right, And so there's this one night 160 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:32,476 Speaker 1: where you decide to engage differently, where you carve out 161 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: some one on one time. It was this summer, the 162 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: end of the summer, and you know, Penelope was just horrendous, 163 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:46,796 Speaker 1: knocking over things, pushing big brother, screaming, and so I 164 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:51,556 Speaker 1: picked Penelope up, basically picked myself up, and moved us 165 00:11:51,556 --> 00:11:54,196 Speaker 1: into Penelope's room. When we sat on the floor cross legged, 166 00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: and I looked into Penelope's eyes and I asked this question, 167 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 1: what's really wrong baby? Why are you so angry? Just that? 168 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,396 Speaker 1: What's wrong? Why are you so angry? And it was 169 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 1: it was a million dollar question. Penellope opened up in 170 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: a way I had not seen ever, eyes filled with tears, 171 00:12:20,476 --> 00:12:27,356 Speaker 1: and Penelope said the most like phenomenal words I had 172 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:32,636 Speaker 1: never even considered. Mama, everyone thinks I'm a girl and 173 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:39,316 Speaker 1: I'm not. I am a boy. And what was your 174 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 1: initial response to that? No words? I really thought Penelle 175 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:49,716 Speaker 1: was gonna say, I hate you, the stupid family. I 176 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:54,236 Speaker 1: you know, this sucks, something like very typical of a 177 00:12:54,356 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 1: three year old, almost three year old. But when Penelope 178 00:12:57,796 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: said I am not a girl, I'm a boy, Wow, 179 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: I just, you know, kind of stumble the way I'm 180 00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 1: stumbling now. I did not know what that meant. And 181 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:10,636 Speaker 1: then I quickly try to pull some things out of 182 00:13:10,316 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 1: the mother rolodex because I have great mothers to rely on, 183 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: So go into my mother rolodex and I'd think, oh, oh, oh, okay, 184 00:13:20,556 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 1: she this is my thought. She is a feminist, she 185 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:30,036 Speaker 1: is tough, she wants to be seen like her brothers. Oh, 186 00:13:30,036 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 1: I get it. She's like, she's going to be maybe 187 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: a lawyer. These are the things I'm thinking. Literally, in 188 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: split seconds, I thought that, in those split seconds, that 189 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 1: I was dealing with a girl who wanted to be 190 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 1: seen as tough, a girl who recognized the inequality in 191 00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 1: this world and didn't want to have second best, wanted 192 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:57,876 Speaker 1: to be seen as lead character. And so I, you know, 193 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: almost like raised the fist in solidarity with this girl 194 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: that I thought I was looking at. And you said 195 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: that you felt this was a parenting failure. Can you 196 00:14:09,116 --> 00:14:13,236 Speaker 1: say more about that? I grew up with great stories 197 00:14:13,276 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 1: of great women, Shirley Chisholm, Billy Jean King, Nina Simone, 198 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:24,276 Speaker 1: my Angelou was our neighbor, and those stories of those 199 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 1: women helped me to be this woman. And those stories 200 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 1: are part of my story, and so I was really 201 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: excited to have my daughters raised around powerful women. And 202 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:39,476 Speaker 1: so I thought, oh shit, did I not tell the 203 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:42,396 Speaker 1: Shirley Chisholm story to Penelope? Did I not raise this 204 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 1: kid on all of the strong, bold women that have 205 00:14:46,476 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 1: changed America for the better. And I was thinking, Oh, 206 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,396 Speaker 1: maybe I didn't tell enough of the stories of women 207 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 1: and aunties and that female perspective that is so important, 208 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:04,996 Speaker 1: that female energy. You know, I thought I had dropped 209 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: the ball on feminism and therefore this girl didn't want 210 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:16,316 Speaker 1: to be a girl. And I was also thinking of 211 00:15:16,356 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 1: it from a self centered perspective, as most of us do. Right, 212 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 1: It's also like very typical. This is something to do 213 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 1: with me. What Pannella is saying about him? Is it 214 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:30,356 Speaker 1: really about me? So when Pannell says I don't want 215 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:32,596 Speaker 1: to be a woman, I'm not thinking what did I 216 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:35,236 Speaker 1: do to set up this child? Why does he not 217 00:15:35,276 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: want to be? Like? Don't you want to be like me? Exactly? 218 00:15:39,516 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 1: I thought my life was pretty darn good as a 219 00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: black woman. You know a lot of people think differently, 220 00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:48,676 Speaker 1: Like they don't know, maybe maybe folks think that black 221 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:51,396 Speaker 1: woman is bottom of the barrel. I'm actually and the 222 00:15:51,436 --> 00:15:55,436 Speaker 1: women in my family actually think of it as the epitome. 223 00:15:55,756 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: We want to be black women, we are excited to 224 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:01,396 Speaker 1: be black women. And so when this black child said 225 00:16:01,556 --> 00:16:04,156 Speaker 1: I'm not a girl and I don't want to be 226 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 1: a woman, I thought I had failed. And I said, 227 00:16:09,916 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: you know, however you feel inside, baby, it's fine if 228 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 1: you feel like your brothers, go ahead and act like 229 00:16:16,116 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 1: your brothers. And so I said, look, you know you're 230 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:22,356 Speaker 1: perfect the way you are. Your body is perfect, you 231 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:28,756 Speaker 1: are phenomenal. And that that that language was absolutely not 232 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:32,996 Speaker 1: landing well on Penelope. When I said your body is 233 00:16:33,036 --> 00:16:34,716 Speaker 1: perfect and you are perfect, and I love you just 234 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: as you are, he looked at me again with this 235 00:16:38,116 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 1: anger because I wasn't getting it, you know, when someone 236 00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:44,396 Speaker 1: doesn't see you and you're trying so hard to explain 237 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 1: yourself to them. He gave me one more shot and 238 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 1: he said, Mama, no, I don't feel like a boy. 239 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:58,396 Speaker 1: I am a boy. And that was the last that was, 240 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 1: you know, that was I had to get it on 241 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 1: that point. I had to get it to not get 242 00:17:04,636 --> 00:17:08,956 Speaker 1: it at that and that moment would have been so 243 00:17:09,436 --> 00:17:13,316 Speaker 1: many backward steps. In that moment when he said I 244 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 1: don't feel like a boy. I am a boy. What 245 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:20,356 Speaker 1: I did know was that we were talking about something 246 00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 1: more than an emotion. It was an identity that we 247 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 1: were talking about. And so once Penelope said I don't 248 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: feel like a boy, I am a boy, I really 249 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: just listened for a long time. We must have been 250 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 1: in that room for about an hour or so, and 251 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:42,436 Speaker 1: Panelle really just told me about how he saw life, 252 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: how he felt inside, what he was experiencing, none of 253 00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:50,036 Speaker 1: which I knew. He said, Mama, I love you, but 254 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 1: I don't want to be you. I want to be Papa. 255 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 1: He said, I don't want tomorrow to come because tomorrow 256 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 1: I will look like you. I want a doctor to 257 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 1: make me a peanut. Mama, Can a doctor make me 258 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 1: a peanut? Here's a kid who was very aware his 259 00:18:08,156 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 1: body at that time was the culprit. At that moment, 260 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:16,716 Speaker 1: at almost three, Panel's body was the enemy. And I 261 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: understood how deep that was, and I understood how painful 262 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:26,516 Speaker 1: that must feel. But he was confiding in me, which 263 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,676 Speaker 1: was the most beautiful thing and most courageous thing. He 264 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 1: confided in me, and he said, will you helped me, Mama? 265 00:18:32,676 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 1: And I said yes, saying yes was a yes, an 266 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:41,556 Speaker 1: overarching yes. It wasn't yes to any one particular next step, 267 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 1: because I didn't know what the hell, what the hell 268 00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:48,076 Speaker 1: were the next steps? But I was saying yes to him, 269 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:54,076 Speaker 1: Yes to his life. Yeah. Yeah. When we were talking. 270 00:18:54,076 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: When I was listening to him, there was a river 271 00:18:57,396 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: behind us, and it was moving with such depth, and 272 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: the force of the river that I could hear felt 273 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:10,636 Speaker 1: like the urgency of the life in front of me. 274 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: It was a connection that I'll never forget. And Penelope 275 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:19,716 Speaker 1: talking about his life, it was, it was happening. It 276 00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 1: wasn't like I could stop Penelope being who he was. 277 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: It was in motion, and he needed me to be 278 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: with him in motion. And then it struck something in 279 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 1: me that was so primary that if I had not 280 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:37,156 Speaker 1: said ye, as tip Penelope, I would have been saying 281 00:19:37,156 --> 00:19:40,676 Speaker 1: no to even myself. That that moment when your child 282 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 1: is you is life and there's no half stepping. You 283 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: just gotta go all the way. You cannot tiptoe. And 284 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:58,476 Speaker 1: so I jumped in, We'll be right back with a 285 00:19:58,516 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 1: flight change of plans. I'm talking with Jody Patterson, a 286 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:18,036 Speaker 1: mother activist and author of the book The Bold World 287 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: and memoir of family and transformation. Her son Pannell, came 288 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 1: out to Jody as transgender more than a decade ago, 289 00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: when he was nearly three years old. I wanted to 290 00:20:28,516 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 1: know what the days and weeks were like for Jody 291 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:35,956 Speaker 1: after that pivotal moment with Pannell. There's so much crying 292 00:20:36,316 --> 00:20:38,796 Speaker 1: that is that comes with this, Like when you raise 293 00:20:38,836 --> 00:20:45,836 Speaker 1: a kid who's different, the NonStop angst of a parent 294 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:49,116 Speaker 1: is real. So I was, you know, spending a lot 295 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:51,316 Speaker 1: of time on the couch crying, spending a lot of 296 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:55,396 Speaker 1: time in the bed crying, and it was getting to 297 00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:58,916 Speaker 1: the point where it was overriding other things, overriding my 298 00:20:59,316 --> 00:21:03,076 Speaker 1: ability to be there for all the children, be there 299 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: for my husband, be there for the daily tasks that 300 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: needed to get done. And so one day I was 301 00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:12,836 Speaker 1: sitting on this couch, on my couch just crying, I 302 00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 1: mean like really sobbing, curled up. Then of all, the 303 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:23,196 Speaker 1: kids were at school, and my my sister friend, who 304 00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 1: was like an auntie to the children, was sitting on 305 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:26,436 Speaker 1: the couch next to me, and she usually just let 306 00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:29,076 Speaker 1: me do what I you know, needed to do, which 307 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:31,876 Speaker 1: was cry, But this one day in particular, she just 308 00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 1: looked at me, calmly and quietly but very clearly said 309 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:45,396 Speaker 1: to me, you know, Jody, big girls we cry and 310 00:21:45,556 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 1: type at the same time, you know. And as I 311 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: looked at her, because it was first of all, I'd 312 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:55,516 Speaker 1: never heard anything like it, so it wasn't like, you know, 313 00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 1: a catchphrase, big girls cry and type at the same time. 314 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: And it took a second, but she never explained it. 315 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 1: I just understood it. So it's a phrase that comes 316 00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:09,796 Speaker 1: at a time. It's a South and phrase and it 317 00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 1: probably was, you know, birthed when women were typing on 318 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 1: typewriters and were asked to do things at the desk, 319 00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:20,756 Speaker 1: assisting people on typewriters. But they were also activists, they 320 00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: were also mothers, They were also leaders in their community, 321 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 1: and they had a lot to be pissed off about, 322 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: a lot to be scared about. And so you have 323 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:29,996 Speaker 1: to get through the day, but you're gonna cry and 324 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:32,436 Speaker 1: type at the same time. And remember this is ten 325 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 1: years ago, so we don't have we didn't have the 326 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:39,196 Speaker 1: understanding of the language. We didn't have trends, icons, living, 327 00:22:39,276 --> 00:22:41,836 Speaker 1: we didn't have Janet Mock, we didn't have posed, we 328 00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:45,876 Speaker 1: didn't have any of the understanding. So the next several 329 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: weeks which turned into several months, which turned into many months, 330 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:56,276 Speaker 1: I just typed away at my computer and google transgender 331 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:00,316 Speaker 1: and then I would squirrel through anything that came up, 332 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:05,476 Speaker 1: whether it was like doctors in the field, hypotheses, theories, 333 00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 1: you know, peer groups, parents, organizations. That those those weeks 334 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:18,876 Speaker 1: of just like exploring the World Wide Web were dark 335 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: in a sense because they were mostly at night. I 336 00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:25,076 Speaker 1: was hiding away from everyone. It's a strange time, strange time, 337 00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 1: very um, very very inward. I didn't have a network 338 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 1: of people then to talk to. And then some in 339 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: some moments, I would have these like moments of like light, 340 00:23:39,956 --> 00:23:46,076 Speaker 1: like total optimism. And I stumbled upon a video of 341 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:48,956 Speaker 1: this little girl named Jazz, who is a young trans 342 00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:52,116 Speaker 1: kid at the time, little girl, and I just deep 343 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:56,076 Speaker 1: dived into her story and her family. You organized a 344 00:23:56,236 --> 00:24:01,276 Speaker 1: family movie night around Jazz's story, right, Yeah. We're sitting 345 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:03,836 Speaker 1: on the couch and it's you know, a few, I 346 00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: think three of the youngest kids, and we're watching as 347 00:24:09,436 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 1: his family really just be proud to be a trans family. 348 00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:20,396 Speaker 1: And Jazz is being bubbly and you know, so outgoing, 349 00:24:20,556 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 1: and she's loving being a trans kid, and Panela looks 350 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:27,156 Speaker 1: at me for the first time and says, Mama, I'm 351 00:24:27,276 --> 00:24:34,516 Speaker 1: trans too, like Jazz. Mama, I'm trans like Jazz, first time, 352 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 1: first time ever putting word to how he was inside 353 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 1: and how he is as a person. And it was 354 00:24:42,276 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: this kid, you know, that he saw on the computer. 355 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 1: Just it just you know, this is why representation matters. 356 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 1: It's like a catchphrase, representation matters. And then when you 357 00:24:52,236 --> 00:24:55,756 Speaker 1: actually realize that the only time your kid has seen 358 00:24:56,356 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 1: themselves on a screen is once, and it lights your 359 00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:03,876 Speaker 1: kid up. You want that, You want more of that. Yeah, 360 00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 1: you're navigating this moment where you're trying to educate yourself 361 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: on every thing there is to know about being transgender. 362 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:16,116 Speaker 1: You're also protecting your child right and you're trying to 363 00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:21,956 Speaker 1: bring others in the family on board. Well, what inspires you, Jody, 364 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 1: to to get to action in all this like fear, anxiety, 365 00:25:29,476 --> 00:25:35,076 Speaker 1: complete and utter, like gut wrenching fear. I am terrified, 366 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 1: and that energy is absolutely understandable. It has earned skepticism 367 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 1: of this country, of these politics, of these folks in 368 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:52,516 Speaker 1: official positions to make laws. I am and that that's so, 369 00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:56,716 Speaker 1: that energy of fear is natural and normal. And actually 370 00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 1: a healthy response to the environment, and I turn that 371 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:06,116 Speaker 1: energy into activism. So I don't It's not that I'm 372 00:26:06,116 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: not scared. It's not that I don't think about folks 373 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 1: that are killing black trans people. But I take that 374 00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 1: that inner fear and I turn it into outward action. 375 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:24,036 Speaker 1: And you very quickly become Pannell's lead supporter an advocate 376 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: when it comes to getting the family and community on 377 00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:34,196 Speaker 1: board with his true gender identity. You craft letters to 378 00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:38,156 Speaker 1: your community and you have Panell participate in that process. 379 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about what that experience was 380 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 1: like and how it changed your relationship with Panell? If 381 00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:46,596 Speaker 1: it did change it it did, You're right, I mean, 382 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:48,636 Speaker 1: it's funny. I just I didn't think about it being 383 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:51,196 Speaker 1: a turning point in our relationship. But when you say 384 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: it that way, it actually was. We became partners in 385 00:26:56,716 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 1: the sense that we were working towards a shared common goal. 386 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:03,836 Speaker 1: You know, usually it's like top down authority, parents, that's 387 00:27:03,876 --> 00:27:08,276 Speaker 1: the agenda, and the kids until you you know, finish college, 388 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: you're growing along with your parents' agenda more so than not. 389 00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 1: And so this was the first time when Penelope and I, 390 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:19,956 Speaker 1: when my child and I were going on a path 391 00:27:19,996 --> 00:27:22,276 Speaker 1: that it was a shared agenda and actually an agenda 392 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: that the child had set. There's a moment when the 393 00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 1: kid takes a lead, because only only the individual self 394 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:36,596 Speaker 1: knows itself. So I allowed that understanding of what the 395 00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:38,596 Speaker 1: goal was to be set by Penelope, and then I 396 00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:41,716 Speaker 1: navigated the details of that, and so it looked like, 397 00:27:41,796 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 1: you know, writing a letter to the family announcing penelas 398 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:52,596 Speaker 1: a boy, asking for their respect and their love and 399 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 1: their support, and also stating that if they weren't ready 400 00:27:56,876 --> 00:28:00,956 Speaker 1: to give those things love and support, then they could 401 00:28:00,956 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 1: take their time and get back to us when they 402 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:06,796 Speaker 1: were ready, but that there would be no misgendering or 403 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 1: miss that we wouldn't be responding or acting um in 404 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:13,556 Speaker 1: the way we used to act with pinellib This is 405 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:15,356 Speaker 1: this was a new day. So I wrote a letter 406 00:28:15,396 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 1: to the family. Pinelle signed the letter and edited the letter, 407 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 1: and addressed the envelopes and put the stickers on the 408 00:28:22,276 --> 00:28:27,196 Speaker 1: stamps on sometimes even hand delivering those letters to people. Um. 409 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:32,316 Speaker 1: And he was really proud of that letter. Go him, yeah, 410 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:39,036 Speaker 1: go little rock star. You had mentioned, Jody that there 411 00:28:39,036 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 1: were there were dark times because you didn't have a 412 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: lot of people that you could talk to about this, 413 00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:47,196 Speaker 1: especially in those early weeks and months. And part of 414 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:51,636 Speaker 1: your process for creating a safe environment for for Pinell 415 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 1: and for you, right what was was to deepen your 416 00:28:54,996 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: connection to the transgender community. What did you what did 417 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: you learn from that from that process? I mean, the 418 00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 1: biggest takeaway from that time for me is that you know, 419 00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 1: our worlds are small, our friend groups are tiny, and 420 00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:14,676 Speaker 1: they typically reflect who we are. So when I looked 421 00:29:14,716 --> 00:29:20,476 Speaker 1: at my friends, I had mostly black female women mother friends. 422 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,556 Speaker 1: To me, that was like, that was that was doing 423 00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:25,916 Speaker 1: that was doing it. You know, if you and I 424 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:28,116 Speaker 1: was raised this way, that you rely on your black 425 00:29:28,116 --> 00:29:32,396 Speaker 1: community because most of the learning, most of this success, 426 00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:37,876 Speaker 1: most of the tenacity, creativity, art, culture, language is going 427 00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:40,996 Speaker 1: to come from the black community. You know, just look 428 00:29:41,036 --> 00:29:43,796 Speaker 1: through history. And then when when I realized that that 429 00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:47,036 Speaker 1: friend group did not reflect the reality of my family, 430 00:29:47,116 --> 00:29:50,156 Speaker 1: I thought, well, this is ridiculous. And I had not 431 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:54,356 Speaker 1: one trans friend. I had not one gender non conforming 432 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:57,476 Speaker 1: friend that I knew of, And so I took it 433 00:29:57,676 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 1: a bit further and said, like, who's in my chosen family, 434 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:03,476 Speaker 1: who's in my community? And no one reflected my son 435 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:07,476 Speaker 1: and that that really disgusted me because I was essentially 436 00:30:07,516 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: telling myself that Pennell was the only trans person in 437 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,916 Speaker 1: the world. And again, that deepens your fear as a 438 00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 1: parent if your child is the only person in the 439 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 1: world that is like themselves. And so I said, you know, 440 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:25,436 Speaker 1: it's important to go outside of your little box. And 441 00:30:25,516 --> 00:30:30,316 Speaker 1: so I went into you know, this mode of like 442 00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:34,036 Speaker 1: just spreading out in the world and really stretching, like 443 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:36,836 Speaker 1: physically just stretching out and touching all of the world. 444 00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 1: And that looked like googling transgender conferences, LGBT conferences, queer conferences. 445 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:49,636 Speaker 1: I literally drove to conferences. I flew to conferences. I 446 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 1: sat and I listened for the first year. I went 447 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,996 Speaker 1: back the next year, sat and listened. I joined parent groups. 448 00:30:58,996 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 1: I took our family to a parent a family trans 449 00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 1: sleep away camp. The whole family went. I mean, there's 450 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:12,156 Speaker 1: you know, there endless ways to get to stretch out. 451 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 1: And I was really intentionally doing that. So, so it's 452 00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:23,836 Speaker 1: been over a decade Jody since you had that conversation 453 00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:28,596 Speaker 1: with Panell about his true gender identity. How have things 454 00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 1: been for Panell? How have things been for you since then? Um, 455 00:31:32,876 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: what's what's changed for both of you and what's stayed 456 00:31:35,716 --> 00:31:42,116 Speaker 1: the same? M Oh wow, what stayed the same? You know? 457 00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:47,876 Speaker 1: It's it's um. When I first that that moment on 458 00:31:47,916 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 1: the floor ten years ago, when Panell said I'm not 459 00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:53,276 Speaker 1: a girl, I'm a boy, I really thought the world 460 00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:58,996 Speaker 1: flipped upside down. I thought there's nothing, nothing normal, nothing 461 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 1: good even is going to come from this um. Since then, 462 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 1: I clearly see things differently. But what's interesting is that 463 00:32:07,756 --> 00:32:11,156 Speaker 1: he he literally is the same kid. I mean, you 464 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:14,436 Speaker 1: know I didn't. So what is consistent is that Penelope 465 00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:21,396 Speaker 1: is the person I birthed. You know, the pronouns have changed, 466 00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:28,236 Speaker 1: the clothing has changed, the happiness has grown, but essentially 467 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 1: the character, the spirit of Penelope is consistent. Penelope back 468 00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:37,516 Speaker 1: then did not have to disappear for Penelope today to come. 469 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 1: I just had to shift and the world just had 470 00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 1: to shift. So the consistency is that I did not 471 00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: lose a child. Consistency is that the child I birthed 472 00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 1: is the child who is now a really fantastic teenager. Yeah, 473 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 1: and that was important to me because you know, you 474 00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: don't want to lose anything. Definitely don't want to lose 475 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:01,796 Speaker 1: a child, even in like theory. Yes, I understand that, 476 00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:04,916 Speaker 1: and I didn't. Yeah, so that's an amazing thing to 477 00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:08,236 Speaker 1: me to look and say, God, you're just just like 478 00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:11,556 Speaker 1: that little baby I was crawling into the dishwasher, you know, 479 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: crawling on like countertops and stuff, inquisitive and happy. Um 480 00:33:19,076 --> 00:33:22,436 Speaker 1: what has changed? You know? I lost I shifted out 481 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:25,556 Speaker 1: of a lot of relationships when I understood my son 482 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:34,276 Speaker 1: to be transa well, you know, when I had this 483 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:36,436 Speaker 1: question that was that was swirling around in my head. 484 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,116 Speaker 1: If my daughter was actually my son, what else in 485 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 1: the world don't I know? It felt like there was 486 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,116 Speaker 1: a lot that I had not learned, and so I 487 00:33:46,156 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 1: went on to quest to learn more. And that learning 488 00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: not only gave me insight to my son and to 489 00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:56,196 Speaker 1: the millions of trans people that exist, but also to myself. 490 00:33:56,916 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 1: I was able to be as bold as I was 491 00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 1: telling my son to be. This woman was able to 492 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:06,916 Speaker 1: be bold as well. And that's that's probably the biggest 493 00:34:06,956 --> 00:34:13,556 Speaker 1: thing that has changed my my The way I interact 494 00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:15,316 Speaker 1: with people is different, and because of that, I had 495 00:34:15,356 --> 00:34:20,196 Speaker 1: to leave relationships. I left a marriage, you know, I 496 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:22,716 Speaker 1: left some some friendships in the form that they were 497 00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:32,196 Speaker 1: in because they no longer fit who I was showing up. 498 00:34:32,236 --> 00:34:38,596 Speaker 1: As you know, I felt like I was preaching a 499 00:34:38,676 --> 00:34:42,436 Speaker 1: really important slogan. Be bold, step into your room, let 500 00:34:42,516 --> 00:34:46,716 Speaker 1: people know who you are. Hold your chin up, you know, 501 00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:49,996 Speaker 1: tell people who they who you are, so that they 502 00:34:50,036 --> 00:34:53,596 Speaker 1: can adjust. I was telling that to a five year old, 503 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:55,396 Speaker 1: a six year old, a seventy year old, be bold, 504 00:34:56,396 --> 00:34:59,676 Speaker 1: and this forty year old woman was not as bold. 505 00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 1: So like I was feeling, you know, it was a 506 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:04,956 Speaker 1: little it was a little hypocritical that I was demanding 507 00:35:04,956 --> 00:35:06,676 Speaker 1: this of a five year old and not of the 508 00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:11,836 Speaker 1: forty year old woman. And so I began to to 509 00:35:11,876 --> 00:35:14,796 Speaker 1: turn the mirror to myself. How bold are you? How 510 00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:19,796 Speaker 1: much of your inner identity is shown to the public, 511 00:35:20,116 --> 00:35:25,196 Speaker 1: shown to your intimate spouse, shown to your children. How 512 00:35:25,276 --> 00:35:30,756 Speaker 1: much are you acknowledging, Jody that you are not meant 513 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:34,836 Speaker 1: to be a supporting character. You know I had supported I, 514 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:37,796 Speaker 1: you know, and moms will understand this. We are supporters, 515 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:42,076 Speaker 1: and in particular, I have a very un I can 516 00:35:42,076 --> 00:35:45,196 Speaker 1: be very submissive and very accommodating. Those are things that 517 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:47,756 Speaker 1: are within me, and I don't reject them now, but 518 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:50,716 Speaker 1: they don't dominate. And I'm also a lead character, and 519 00:35:50,756 --> 00:35:53,436 Speaker 1: I'm also someone who's going to set a tone, and 520 00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:57,556 Speaker 1: I'm also someone who has a vision. And so I 521 00:35:57,556 --> 00:36:01,076 Speaker 1: took a different approach to the parenting model that I 522 00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:06,196 Speaker 1: was doing. And so now not just supporting and nurturing, 523 00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:10,716 Speaker 1: I am also leading the family. I wasn't doing that then, 524 00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 1: not at all. And once I said, you know, effort 525 00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:20,796 Speaker 1: to a lot of things and a lot of demands 526 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:22,516 Speaker 1: on me and a lot of people. When I started 527 00:36:22,556 --> 00:36:27,436 Speaker 1: saying no, my career changed. I narrowed it into something 528 00:36:27,476 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: that I really like, which is writing. I love to write. 529 00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:33,796 Speaker 1: So I've written two books. I took a leap and 530 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 1: joined a board of the Human Rights Campaign, and I 531 00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:39,396 Speaker 1: took another leap and asked them to elect me as 532 00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:43,156 Speaker 1: the chair of the Foundation board. And I got that honor. 533 00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:48,956 Speaker 1: So places where I would not have inserted myself, yeah, 534 00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:53,556 Speaker 1: I now insert myself doing things that are still really 535 00:36:53,636 --> 00:36:57,236 Speaker 1: challenging because I've never done them before, but I'm doing them. 536 00:36:57,476 --> 00:36:59,236 Speaker 1: I got that. I got that from Pinell, like he 537 00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:05,396 Speaker 1: would literally. I remember watching Panell in karate, so he 538 00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:08,756 Speaker 1: was he is, he's been doing karate for years and 539 00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:12,836 Speaker 1: he goes to karate tournaments and he was competing obviously 540 00:37:12,836 --> 00:37:16,516 Speaker 1: in the boys section. Boys you know ten and up, 541 00:37:16,596 --> 00:37:19,716 Speaker 1: so like ten and thirteen year olds are competing together, 542 00:37:20,556 --> 00:37:24,396 Speaker 1: and I would just like be terrified for him. You know, 543 00:37:24,516 --> 00:37:27,076 Speaker 1: My brain was kicking and like, oh my god, is 544 00:37:27,116 --> 00:37:29,036 Speaker 1: he really going to show up like these boys? Right? 545 00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:31,076 Speaker 1: Is he really going to be enough for these boys? 546 00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 1: Is he really boy enough? Was probably what was going 547 00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:36,876 Speaker 1: through my head. And I was watching him and he said, Mama, 548 00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:38,916 Speaker 1: one day, he said, at the beginning of his match, Mama, 549 00:37:38,916 --> 00:37:42,516 Speaker 1: don't be scared. I'm not scared. So he's going into 550 00:37:42,556 --> 00:37:45,556 Speaker 1: the ring, right, not scared, knowing he may win or 551 00:37:45,556 --> 00:37:47,356 Speaker 1: he may not win. And so now I I go 552 00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:51,156 Speaker 1: into these arenas knowing I may or may not be 553 00:37:51,276 --> 00:37:53,676 Speaker 1: the best, but I'm going to go into them. That 554 00:37:53,716 --> 00:38:00,756 Speaker 1: came from him. Wow, oh man. You mentioned earlier in 555 00:38:00,756 --> 00:38:04,556 Speaker 1: our conversation when we took that time machine back to 556 00:38:04,596 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 1: the period of your life where where your story with 557 00:38:07,316 --> 00:38:11,356 Speaker 1: Cannell was just beginning, that that you didn't feel full, 558 00:38:12,236 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: That your life had had what you thought were the 559 00:38:15,196 --> 00:38:18,156 Speaker 1: writ ingredients to feel full, but that you didn't feel full. 560 00:38:19,276 --> 00:38:22,236 Speaker 1: And so I want to know whether you feel full 561 00:38:22,276 --> 00:38:29,636 Speaker 1: now fuller? No, you know, So here's the interesting thing. 562 00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:34,676 Speaker 1: I really did have a deficit in my soul. I think, um, 563 00:38:34,996 --> 00:38:38,156 Speaker 1: I was feeling empty. My emptiness was because I had 564 00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:46,316 Speaker 1: a false expectation. The false expectation was get good grades, 565 00:38:46,356 --> 00:38:49,876 Speaker 1: go to a good school, marry a good man, and 566 00:38:49,956 --> 00:38:54,596 Speaker 1: it's gonna be okay. I know that sounds very simplistic, 567 00:38:54,636 --> 00:38:57,796 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I had the same dream, you know 568 00:38:57,836 --> 00:39:02,036 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like like intellectually you know better, But 569 00:39:02,156 --> 00:39:05,076 Speaker 1: really I was doing the steps that I thought were 570 00:39:05,116 --> 00:39:07,156 Speaker 1: good in life, and I thought I was going to 571 00:39:07,236 --> 00:39:10,636 Speaker 1: have a quote unquote good life and it wasn't. It 572 00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:15,516 Speaker 1: wasn't matching. And I think I needed to break out 573 00:39:15,516 --> 00:39:17,636 Speaker 1: of those four corners just as much as Pannell did. 574 00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:20,916 Speaker 1: And so now you know, Look, I do love marriage, 575 00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 1: I do love relationship, I do love children, and I 576 00:39:23,396 --> 00:39:27,396 Speaker 1: do love being chosen to be the chair of the 577 00:39:27,476 --> 00:39:30,796 Speaker 1: Human Rights Campaign. But I don't use that to measure 578 00:39:31,476 --> 00:39:35,556 Speaker 1: the value in the validity of this woman. I'm what 579 00:39:35,676 --> 00:39:39,876 Speaker 1: I'm using now as like, are you doing a good job, Jody? 580 00:39:40,036 --> 00:39:42,196 Speaker 1: Is how much of this world are you touching? Like? 581 00:39:42,276 --> 00:39:46,036 Speaker 1: How much are you experiencing? What? Don't you know? Go 582 00:39:46,236 --> 00:39:49,356 Speaker 1: learn some more? And so That is a very fulfilling 583 00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:53,916 Speaker 1: place to be because you can ingest this world, you 584 00:39:53,916 --> 00:39:58,116 Speaker 1: can take it in and never accomplish a million dollars 585 00:39:58,196 --> 00:40:01,636 Speaker 1: right and still feel fulfilled. As Bob Marley says, I'm 586 00:40:01,756 --> 00:40:07,156 Speaker 1: rich in life. I'm watching my kids and watching them 587 00:40:07,196 --> 00:40:32,476 Speaker 1: do life, and I'm taking cues from them. That's something new. Hey, 588 00:40:32,516 --> 00:40:35,436 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. Join me next week. When I talked 589 00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:38,756 Speaker 1: to the religious scholar Kate Bowler, she's an expert on 590 00:40:38,796 --> 00:40:41,476 Speaker 1: the prosperity gospel, which preaches that if you have a 591 00:40:41,516 --> 00:40:45,036 Speaker 1: strong faith in God, you deserve health, wealth, and happiness. 592 00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:48,836 Speaker 1: Kate never believed in this idea of people deserving things, 593 00:40:49,436 --> 00:40:52,876 Speaker 1: or so she thought, until a stage four cancer diagnosis 594 00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:57,596 Speaker 1: revealed otherwise. I spent years studying people who believe that 595 00:40:57,636 --> 00:41:00,996 Speaker 1: they deserve what they get, and I never once imagine 596 00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:03,716 Speaker 1: myself to be that kind of person. And then when 597 00:41:03,716 --> 00:41:06,716 Speaker 1: I could hear myself saying, but aren't I kind of 598 00:41:06,716 --> 00:41:09,996 Speaker 1: a good person? It was like that that bit was 599 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:14,916 Speaker 1: so deeply humbling, and I realized, like, oh, things, things 600 00:41:14,956 --> 00:41:26,956 Speaker 1: come apart. A slight change of Plans is created, written 601 00:41:26,956 --> 00:41:30,396 Speaker 1: an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 602 00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:34,476 Speaker 1: family includes Tyler Green our senior producer, Emily Rosteck, our 603 00:41:34,516 --> 00:41:38,756 Speaker 1: producer and fact checker, Jan Guera, our senior editor, Ben Taliday, 604 00:41:38,836 --> 00:41:43,196 Speaker 1: our sound engineer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louis 605 00:41:43,236 --> 00:41:46,076 Speaker 1: Skara wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange 606 00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:49,116 Speaker 1: the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production 607 00:41:49,116 --> 00:41:53,636 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there, including Nicolemrano, 608 00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:58,316 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather Faine, and Carly Niggliori, and 609 00:41:58,436 --> 00:42:01,996 Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You 610 00:42:01,996 --> 00:42:04,516 Speaker 1: can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at 611 00:42:04,596 --> 00:42:16,516 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Schunker Sola. What did you have for breakfast? Jetty? 612 00:42:17,156 --> 00:42:23,396 Speaker 1: I had m breakfast was tea and I had a 613 00:42:23,436 --> 00:42:29,956 Speaker 1: red velvet cupcake. I think that was it. I usually 614 00:42:29,956 --> 00:42:33,116 Speaker 1: have like an avocado with egg and sprouts. Just didn't 615 00:42:33,116 --> 00:42:36,996 Speaker 1: happen today. Yeah, this is a no judgment zone, by 616 00:42:36,996 --> 00:42:39,196 Speaker 1: the way, we just need audio quality. You can eat 617 00:42:39,196 --> 00:42:40,036 Speaker 1: whatever the hell you want.