Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg,
Speaker 3: Frida egg egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie, I'm about
Speaker 3: ready to run off of the course.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast.
Speaker 2: Today I'm we are going to discuss Augusta National in
Speaker 2: great detail. This was fun. It's been a while since
Speaker 2: I did a podcast with you know, guests just talking
Speaker 2: golf course that neither had any association with. So maybe
Speaker 2: we will do this more in the future because I
Speaker 2: thought it led to some really good discussion. I am
Speaker 2: joined today by Jeff Shackelford of the Quadrilateral. Jeff is
Speaker 2: a golf architect in his own right. He co designed
Speaker 2: Rustic Canyon. He's spent the consultant on a number of projects,
Speaker 2: and he has written number of great books on golf architecture.
Speaker 2: He also has a sub stack. We talk about that
Speaker 2: at the top of his section. And also I am
Speaker 2: joined by Rob Collins of King Collins Dormer Design. Rob
Speaker 2: is a golf architect based out of Chattanooga, who's designed
Speaker 2: golf courses such as Sweeten's Cove and Landman. Jeff and
Speaker 2: I talk kind of about like routing and strategy of
Speaker 2: Augusta Nashal, and Rob and I dive into what kind
Speaker 2: of makes the greens great. So this was super fun.
Speaker 2: As for fans of the Frida Egg, a reminder here
Speaker 2: we have a fresh assortment of merch options for next week.
Speaker 2: Next week's big tournament. So we We've got our Mackenzie Bunker,
Speaker 2: which I think is a cool little logo. It's on
Speaker 2: a number of hats. We have a collaboration with Swag
Speaker 2: that is a you know that has that Mackenzie bunker
Speaker 2: on some headcovers. You can go to proshop dot Thefridagg
Speaker 2: dot com to check out that. One last bit of
Speaker 2: before we get to Jeff and Rob, let's take a
Speaker 2: moment to talk about our partner, Club Champion. They've been
Speaker 2: with us for a long time. Thank you to them
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Speaker 2: let's get to Jeff Shackleford here all right. I am
Speaker 2: joined by Jeff Shackleford, owner, CEO, COO, chief marketing officer,
Speaker 2: also intern at the Quadrilateral. A great substack newsletter. Everybody
Speaker 2: should subscribe, especially this is the time of the year.
Speaker 2: This is like your Christmas time, because the major season
Speaker 2: is starting. You have, I believe, golf's only major championship
Speaker 2: focused newsletter. Uh and uh it's it's a great it's
Speaker 2: a great read. It's honestly, I get a lot of newsletters.
Speaker 2: I don't read a lot of them. Yours's appointment reading.
Speaker 2: I usually save it for a moment where my house
Speaker 2: is a little quiet. I sit down and I just
Speaker 2: die in and I enjoy. I enjoy the uh, the
Speaker 2: irreverence of it. I there's always what I find two
Speaker 2: or three laugh out loud moments in in the UH
Speaker 2: in the text, so I enjoy it quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Jeff Shackelford, how are you doing, sir? Are you ready
Speaker 2: for for AUGUSTA National?
Speaker 3: I'm doing great. I am very ready. I'm very excited.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: I would love the weather forecast to improve a little bit.
Speaker 3: That's my only real gripe going in. And I think
Speaker 3: it's gonna be a I think it's gonna be a
Speaker 3: really good one. So I've heard good things about the
Speaker 3: condition of the course given Helene and all that stuff. So, uh,
Speaker 3: just tweak the weather and we'll have a great uh
Speaker 3: anwa and then we'll have and I more importantly, I
Speaker 3: don't think there's any serious cold right now in the forecast,
Speaker 3: and I'm I'm happy about that. It's been a little
Speaker 3: cold last few years. Andy, Well, well it's not very
Speaker 3: springtime when it's forty two degrees there.
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about it. It has not been great
Speaker 2: the weather for like really since I started covering the
Speaker 2: event there. Yeah, it's been pretty bad. You know obviously,
Speaker 2: like all the way back to the Tiger one, we
Speaker 2: had a Sunday morning finish instead of a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 2: You just think about what that did to ratings. That
Speaker 2: would have set all sorts of of highs for the
Speaker 2: for the Masters, if if Tiger was playing that afternoon
Speaker 2: and winning. But yeah, the weather is is interesting. I
Speaker 2: it's Helene post Alene's gonna it's going to be a
Speaker 2: new look. I've heard from a few people it's shocking
Speaker 2: how many trees are down.
Speaker 3: That well, that that's definitely number one. And then how
Speaker 3: the wind factors in now And that's what I just
Speaker 3: interviewed Ben crench Off for the newsletter and he just
Speaker 3: played there and he that's what he's he's curious to see.
Speaker 3: He said it's in great shape, maybe the best he's
Speaker 3: ever seen it. You know, they did have a chance
Speaker 3: to do another ryegrass touch up there after the after Helene.
Speaker 3: And but that's what he's looking for, is is uh
Speaker 3: is kind of the impact of of of wind in
Speaker 3: different ways that players aren't used to.
Speaker 2: I heard also, the T shots are a little like
Speaker 2: you know how they have those just branches that mightious hang. Yeah,
Speaker 2: some of them. Some of those branches are gone, so
Speaker 2: the T shots are a little less intimidating. But we're
Speaker 2: not gonna we're not talking about this. We are talking
Speaker 2: about the routing and the routing of Augusta National.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I would love to hear you know what you
Speaker 2: admire about the routing of Augusta National.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the easiest property. Obviously, they had very
Speaker 3: few limitations that we know of from their writings, Bobby
Speaker 3: Jones and Alistair McKinzie. But it's a as you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's a it's it's a beautiful property, but it's
Speaker 3: not easy in terms of golf course design because it's
Speaker 3: got a high spot and a low spot and a
Speaker 3: actually you have to come back to the high spot,
Speaker 3: and that's not always the most enjoyable ground to create
Speaker 3: holes on, and it's probably why seventeen and eighteen or
Speaker 3: a little bit on the dull side, I guess compared
Speaker 3: to Amen Corner to a lot of people, and I
Speaker 3: understand that. So I think that what they were able
Speaker 3: to do is fascinating, and I'm sure, yeah, I'm working
Speaker 3: on a deep dive on the third hole because it's
Speaker 3: just always been a little bit of a mystery to me.
Speaker 3: And there's a cool topo map out there and you
Speaker 3: can see they picked that green site, so They'm sure
Speaker 3: they had spots on the course where there were holes
Speaker 3: that were important to them, and around Amen Corner was
Speaker 3: obviously one of those. But of course, as most people know,
Speaker 3: that was not the back nine originally, and thankfully it
Speaker 3: is now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's one hundred and fifty feet of
Speaker 2: fall from like ten t to Amen Corner, which I think,
Speaker 2: like the vast majority of golf courses that are really
Speaker 2: great are in like the twenty to eighty feet of
Speaker 2: fall rise and fall across the property. And so you
Speaker 2: think about like how big that I mean almost double
Speaker 2: that of like what would be considered a great severe property.
Speaker 2: You know what if you as someone who's written you know,
Speaker 2: multiple entry level books to golf architecture, how would you
Speaker 2: explain why a really hilly property makes routing difficult?
Speaker 3: Well, the number one thing is that what I just
Speaker 3: mentioned getting back to the clubhouse means you're going to
Speaker 3: have some some dogs and you're going to have some
Speaker 3: holes that are not pleasing. I like uphill par threes.
Speaker 3: But yeah, as you know, people come there and they're
Speaker 3: always shocked how uphill the eighteenth is. Even the seventeenth
Speaker 3: I think surprises people. So that's number one. And then
Speaker 3: you know drainage wise and water movement and kind of
Speaker 3: wonky stuff like that that's not very sexy. Ith it
Speaker 3: plays a big part and how you think, and I mean,
Speaker 3: the good news is it all drains down to Raise Creek.
Speaker 3: The bad news is it all trains down to Raise Creek.
Speaker 3: So you know they've done a lot of work underground
Speaker 3: to try to try to capture water and and more,
Speaker 3: I think for spectating and the patrons. You see, I'm
Speaker 3: getting into my lingo speak. I'm k measing into it.
Speaker 3: I'm working on it, but for the patrons experience as
Speaker 3: much as it is for the golf, because, as we know,
Speaker 3: some of the stuff they do for drainage for the
Speaker 3: golf is not great. It's kind of weird. But and
Speaker 3: some of it might be, you know, scalloping out around
Speaker 3: greens in the name of scoring. I don't I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't really get briefed on those things, so I
Speaker 3: don't know. But so I mean, those would be the
Speaker 3: main things. And just to give you an idea of
Speaker 3: Rustic Canyon, from the thirteenth green to the entrance is
Speaker 3: one hundred and forty feet of elevation change, but basically
Speaker 3: over twice the distance as say from the tees Tee
Speaker 3: to the twelfth green. So I think that you know,
Speaker 3: that shows you that it happens in a quick amount
Speaker 3: of time, that that elevation change. But they made it
Speaker 3: work beautifully. And I think those uphill holes, yeah, they
Speaker 3: work as well as they can other than all the
Speaker 3: trees they've planted.
Speaker 2: If you were going to like I think you made
Speaker 2: a great point there, So Rust Canyon one hundred and
Speaker 2: forty feet of elevation, but it's over a really wide
Speaker 2: swath and it's kind of a steady climb. You know,
Speaker 2: you're in like that individual you're in a valley a
Speaker 2: bit going up into foothills versus there, it's very abrupt.
Speaker 2: And I think what you were talking about with with
Speaker 2: uphill versus you know, uphill holes being dogs. I think
Speaker 2: like everybody who plays golf, like if you played a
Speaker 2: succession of uphill hole, you'd be like, all right, Like
Speaker 2: whether you're attuned to architecture or not, you might at
Speaker 2: some point be like we're going uphill again, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I think like that's like with very severe properties,
Speaker 2: that's obviously an extreme challenge, is like how do you
Speaker 2: get back up the hill? Do you think there are
Speaker 2: a couple holes? With this severe abruptly severe land that
Speaker 2: Augusta is on. You know, it's dramatic on one hand,
Speaker 2: which I think is like everybody that walks out there.
Speaker 2: One of the great things is like you walk out
Speaker 2: there and you're mesmerize it at how dramatic it is.
Speaker 2: But are there a couple holes in particular? In on
Speaker 2: the golf course that make everything work.
Speaker 3: Well, Yeah, when you think about a whole like eight
Speaker 3: that that kind of gets you back up, but not entirely.
Speaker 3: And then you have number nine come back down. Not
Speaker 3: the most scenic thrilling part five, but it's got a
Speaker 3: great looking tea shot for the most part, although I
Speaker 3: think it looked better when the bunker was more of
Speaker 3: a kind of a center line looking bunker. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: and then you know funky green that that isn't quite
Speaker 3: as crazy, I don't think as it was in Mackenzie's day,
Speaker 3: but you know, Clifford Roberts bulldozed it and and then
Speaker 3: they Byron Nelson and I think it was a Joe
Speaker 3: Finger I think who he worked with that that put
Speaker 3: it back and they did pretty well. But anyway, it's
Speaker 3: so it's kind of a funky ending and and liven
Speaker 3: sings up. And so I'd say that's one. Obviously they
Speaker 3: used four and six as and Mackenzie wrote about this
Speaker 3: and George Thomas wrote about it. The par threes are
Speaker 3: handyways to get from one place to another and and
Speaker 3: clearly they loved that land up there on the fifth hole.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, just with the fall off on the left.
Speaker 3: They were pretty clear from the beginning that was going
Speaker 3: to be sort of a road hole, a flipped road
Speaker 3: hole strategy of you know, hug the side and you
Speaker 3: get the better angle of the green, and the more
Speaker 3: you bail out, the worse the angle. And unfortunately when
Speaker 3: they redid it last time, they gave you, well, very
Speaker 3: few people the ability to clear the bunkers and and
Speaker 3: then there's no reward on the other side of them.
Speaker 3: So I don't really know how they missed that one
Speaker 3: because it. Jones was pretty pretty explicit in what they
Speaker 3: consider his Bible. Golf is my game. He's you know,
Speaker 3: he's just was such an incredible writer, as was Mackenzie
Speaker 3: bub Jones really got a lot in in a paragraph
Speaker 3: and he summed that hole up. So anyway, so yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that was a that was a part of
Speaker 3: the property that was a little separated, but they always
Speaker 3: they always wanted to use that and and I think
Speaker 3: the original hole was pretty cool and the green's pretty great.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What when you say par threes are easy to
Speaker 2: get you from one in place like great great ways
Speaker 2: to get you from one place to another, what does
Speaker 2: that mean? Well, usually do you when you, especially when
Speaker 2: you look at four and six for example.
Speaker 3: Well especially six, because it's so steep downhill and and
Speaker 3: you can't you couldn't have kept going straight because then
Speaker 3: you run into the third hole. So it was just
Speaker 3: an awkward piece of the property or not awkward, but
Speaker 3: it just a severe part of it that got allowed
Speaker 3: them to get it back down there. And then the
Speaker 3: beautiful land on number seven. You can't see it. It's
Speaker 3: covered in trees, but uh and that but it's it
Speaker 3: was a beautiful it is a beautiful lay of the
Speaker 3: land hole and the original green was a little bit
Speaker 3: down the hill, not much but uh so, yeah, that
Speaker 3: was one and then four. Same thing to kind of
Speaker 3: get you to number five was, you know, I was
Speaker 3: a pretty jungly area in the nursery, although they're really
Speaker 3: I saw an areel the other day. I was shocked
Speaker 3: town how many trees they planted in the original nursery
Speaker 3: was was more open than I I had never seen
Speaker 3: this area pre golf course, and it surprised me. But anyway,
Speaker 3: that area had kind of has a little a little
Speaker 3: creak and gully that that's mostly been piped under now
Speaker 3: on four and uh left of five, there's actually hazard
Speaker 3: left to five for part of the hole. Nobody really
Speaker 3: ever counts it in play because it kind of ends
Speaker 3: about two hundred yards off the tee. So that area
Speaker 3: was I think pretty rough, and those two part threes
Speaker 3: allowed them to to to deal with that that portion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I you know, I never think about those
Speaker 2: necessarily as like keys to the routing, but it is
Speaker 2: like getting to that high ridge on the on on five, which,
Speaker 2: like you know, otherwise it would be we just played
Speaker 2: down five almost gives it diversity of having another ridge
Speaker 2: hole with that that left side and it and it
Speaker 2: creates like we're just not playing down and up right,
Speaker 2: there's another up part of it famously.
Speaker 3: Well just quickly that is another great part of the routing,
Speaker 3: is that is it You never you don't feel like
Speaker 3: you're playing down hill and uphill. They zigzag, it moves
Speaker 3: around and yeah, so but that hole, you're correct, that
Speaker 3: was probably a great element to that hole that added
Speaker 3: to its its attractiveness to.
Speaker 2: Them when you so obviously I think most people know
Speaker 2: this and most people that listen to this podcast know this,
Speaker 2: but originally the golf course, the nines were flipped. So
Speaker 2: what we now know is the front nine was the
Speaker 2: back nine. What we now know is the back nine
Speaker 2: was the front nine. Have you ever put a lot
Speaker 2: of thought into which cadence you prefer, because obviously routing,
Speaker 2: one of the big aspects of routing is how a
Speaker 2: golfer goes around to property. There were shape and frost
Speaker 2: concerns with the original front nine. If you were to
Speaker 2: take out, you know, any shade and frost concerns, which
Speaker 2: which manner in which going through the golf course would
Speaker 2: you prefer?
Speaker 3: Oh, oh, the current for sure. I mean there's there's
Speaker 3: you know, I view of routing as sort of an
Speaker 3: equivalent of a story, and it story has acts and
Speaker 3: arcs and ups and downs, and I think that's where
Speaker 3: they've made some changes, not really regarding that enough, and
Speaker 3: and it became sort of established law in a way,
Speaker 3: the way the course flowed basically in the seventies, eighties
Speaker 3: and nineties, where you you, yeah, you had a really
Speaker 3: tough opener. It's always been a hardhole. It's kind of
Speaker 3: an awkward t shop, but then two, three you had
Speaker 3: a chance. Four and five were always pretty tough, but
Speaker 3: then six through nine was sort of a real little
Speaker 3: a great little stretch where somebody's hot, they're making birdies
Speaker 3: and if they're not, they're making bogies in it. Those
Speaker 3: kind of interesting in between holes. And I think they've
Speaker 3: just gone in a direction where now it's basically hold on,
Speaker 3: uh you still have two and three and and but
Speaker 3: then really until you get to eight, that stretch in
Speaker 3: between four through uh seven is is you can't have
Speaker 3: to play pretty conservatively, So it really kind of changes that.
Speaker 3: The Yeah, it's like the A. I also like to
Speaker 3: think of it like an album, you know, when a
Speaker 3: producer and I realize I'm dating myself. Nobody listens to
Speaker 3: albums anymore, but the records.
Speaker 2: Records are records, and with the hipsters.
Speaker 3: Believe me, I got I do too. I love it.
Speaker 3: And uh, you look at the way they place the songs,
Speaker 3: and you know, you don't put a bunch of ballads
Speaker 3: at the beginning, or you don't put you know, you
Speaker 3: try to start out with something and you slip in
Speaker 3: some of those kind of B sides for almost B
Speaker 3: side songs somewhere, and you you know, you have some
Speaker 3: ups and downs. And so I can't even fathom why
Speaker 3: they had the original version, just because anybody with any
Speaker 3: kind of theatrical, dramatic sensibility would want those holes around
Speaker 3: Race Creek and the tributary of Race Creek to be
Speaker 3: something you're building towards later in the round. And you know,
Speaker 3: they they they had their reasons, and I'm so confused
Speaker 3: at this point as to who drove what on that
Speaker 3: that it just doesn't it really doesn't matter. But I
Speaker 3: think what does matter is that when you think about
Speaker 3: all the incredible masters of the seventies through the nineties,
Speaker 3: that we've lost something. You know, there was a flow
Speaker 3: to those rounds and a cadence and both from players
Speaker 3: and patrons who kind of knew what was what was happening,
Speaker 3: what was what was potential potentially happening. And it feels
Speaker 3: like the Hoodie Fazzio area changes have taken some of
Speaker 3: that out of play and they just haven't quite gotten
Speaker 3: that that's same cadence back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, it's a I think like one
Speaker 2: of the things that's done really well if you look
Speaker 2: at it from like a very macro view, is that
Speaker 2: no golf course has withstood technology as well. And obviously
Speaker 2: that's with the ability to just build new te's like
Speaker 2: still having like still being a course that had puts
Speaker 2: mid irons in players hands on occasion. They've done that,
Speaker 2: but they have in that pursuit they have lost a
Speaker 2: little bit of the essence of the of the flow
Speaker 2: of the round and some of the world at a
Speaker 2: micro level, like if you you said at you know,
Speaker 2: ten thousand feet or forty thousand feet, this is generally
Speaker 2: they've done a nice job of keeping the course courses relevance,
Speaker 2: Like it hasn't turned into John Deere, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of like driver just driver Wedgefest. But when you
Speaker 2: when you zoom in on micro and you look at
Speaker 2: what's happened to the individual holes, it's like, yeah, we
Speaker 2: were missing some of the essence of this hole and
Speaker 2: what it was, you know, as Bobby Jones and Alistair
Speaker 2: Merckenzie laid it out to be what what dynamic that
Speaker 2: hole was supposed to present and how it fits within
Speaker 2: the overarching character of the golf course. And I think
Speaker 2: that's like an interesting aspect of it. Is like you know,
Speaker 2: if you compare it to Sawgrass, right, Sawgrass added a
Speaker 2: few new T's this year, but it's become Sawgrass has
Speaker 2: become just like a wedge fest. I mean, like guys
Speaker 2: are hitting it over that bunkerround fifty team on the right,
Speaker 2: and they leave themselves with like a gap wedge into
Speaker 2: this or sand wedge into this what used to be
Speaker 2: a driver six iron into into this tiny green. You know,
Speaker 2: like you look at the way they've been able to
Speaker 2: preserve some of that that you know, they call it
Speaker 2: shot value. But what they have missed a little bit
Speaker 2: is on the on the strategy and execution of the
Speaker 2: idea of what they want to do, as as you
Speaker 2: reference with like the road hole for an example. And
Speaker 2: I think that, like when I think about the old routing,
Speaker 2: I one of the things I think that has happened
Speaker 2: that people gloss over is like if you if if
Speaker 2: six six is this par three which has like a
Speaker 2: very like you either hit the shot or you don't,
Speaker 2: you know, And if you hit the shot, it's a birdie.
Speaker 2: It's a great birdie opportunity. If you don't, it is
Speaker 2: like going to be very hard to make. Par seven
Speaker 2: used to be obvious. Now it's a four hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty very narrow par four where you have to hit
Speaker 2: like a perfect drive. I mean, you got like a
Speaker 2: five yard area you can land the ball that keep
Speaker 2: it on that fair away to a raise green that
Speaker 2: used to be a driver pitch hole, you know, drive
Speaker 2: and pitch or drive you know in the original version
Speaker 2: when the green was low a driveable hole either right,
Speaker 2: and then you go eight par five and nine a
Speaker 2: very like taxing second shot into nine, like very challenging
Speaker 2: second shot. I think that finish, I think that four
Speaker 2: hole finish would have been more is way more exciting
Speaker 2: than the current four hole finish.
Speaker 3: Correct. Correct.
Speaker 2: But so it's interesting because you're changing the diet, you
Speaker 2: would completely flip the dynamic of like right now with
Speaker 2: the finish, especially with seventeen eighteen, it's like, okay par
Speaker 2: par and the old routing on seven, particularly seven eight nine,
Speaker 2: you're thinking, I got to put my foot on the
Speaker 2: gas here and my lead, my two shot lead might
Speaker 2: not be safe unless I hit great shots.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct. It's just that I think the cadence
Speaker 3: of having amen corner where it is, the way things
Speaker 3: when you make the turn, just kind of the build up.
Speaker 3: I think it's okay that you have that where you
Speaker 3: have it, and then the last two holes. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: guess where I'd also disagree is they've made eighteen seventeen
Speaker 3: and eighteen such just hould on for dear life holes
Speaker 3: And if you watch those those great masters in the seventies,
Speaker 3: eighties and nineties, they were they were not easy holes,
Speaker 3: but it felt like if somebody made a miske it
Speaker 3: felt like it was easy to make a mistake. But
Speaker 3: it was also easy to make birdie if you play
Speaker 3: the right shots on those holes. And now they're very
Speaker 3: defensive holes, extremely defensive and both and so they're really
Speaker 3: quite boring in a way. I'll be curious how that
Speaker 3: eighteenth t shot looks how the trees. That was one
Speaker 3: of the ones where I would you know, people always
Speaker 3: really out of Jordan hit that t shot off the
Speaker 3: tree on eight Well, those trees really hang over. It
Speaker 3: doesn't doesn't take much from that back tea to bring
Speaker 3: those in play. And you know, we've seen how some
Speaker 3: really awful tea shots there in recent years because it's
Speaker 3: just it's a hard t shot from back there and awkward.
Speaker 3: It's awkward. So I guess, yeah, I some of the
Speaker 3: defensiveness is just uh, I mean, ultimately that's what I
Speaker 3: don't you don't like to see there because, as Creunchhaw
Speaker 3: has said many times, quoting Jackie Burke it was the
Speaker 3: most tempting course in the world, and and there's just
Speaker 3: there's there's not as much temptation out there because of
Speaker 3: some of the changes they've made, not because of the technology.
Speaker 3: And that's where you'd love to just ask a few
Speaker 3: questions and try to understand now and that's it. They've
Speaker 3: also done some things like on number two, to to
Speaker 3: kind of tempt you to try to turn that corner
Speaker 3: even more and and but also bring more trouble into
Speaker 3: play with getting the rough right up to the pine
Speaker 3: needles and things like that. So there have been a
Speaker 3: few good ones like that, and the eleventh is better
Speaker 3: but still not still not idyllic, but you feel like eleven.
Speaker 3: I guess one of the things too, And when you
Speaker 3: think about it is it was always more of a
Speaker 3: second shot course than that than people I think appreciated,
Speaker 3: and less about driving accuracy, and they've made a little
Speaker 3: bit more about hitting it straighter, and I think it's
Speaker 3: just a way more interesting course if you if it's wider,
Speaker 3: the ball's running, and it is about the second shots
Speaker 3: and letting everybody kind of wap it out there and
Speaker 3: get wherever they get. And then and then see what
Speaker 3: happens who who controls their irons the best. I think
Speaker 3: that's an underrated part of how it used to play.
Speaker 2: I think Augusta National operates the best as I think
Speaker 2: it's one of the things that it's got, like it's
Speaker 2: kind of pushing and pulling against this idea of like
Speaker 2: being a golf course that's got a lot of shades
Speaker 2: of gray depending on where your ball goes, and there's
Speaker 2: lighter shades of gray and darker shades of gray, you know,
Speaker 2: meaning like you know you're you might not know, it
Speaker 2: might not be very obvious if you're in a really
Speaker 2: good or a really bad spot to casual eye. And
Speaker 2: I think the push and pull there is around is
Speaker 2: that should this be? You know, I think like the
Speaker 2: general ethos if you asked a great player, what should
Speaker 2: tournament golf do? And I think this is like a
Speaker 2: something that's like held by great golfers is they think
Speaker 2: that every shot should be penalized more offline it goes,
Speaker 2: and that becomes a very black and white setup where
Speaker 2: it's like I hit it straight and I'm good, or
Speaker 2: I hit it offline and I'm bad. And that's just
Speaker 2: the general ethos of like how and they think if
Speaker 2: I hit it ten yards offline or thirty yards offline.
Speaker 2: If I hit a thirty yards offline, I should be
Speaker 2: even worse spot than if I hit it ten yards offline.
Speaker 2: And I think that's where in the last thirty years,
Speaker 2: Augusta Nashals really really struggled to crystallize on what our
Speaker 2: identity is. You know, are we this type of golf course?
Speaker 2: And like the seventh hole is a perfect example of
Speaker 2: this where it's like we have lengthened it way back.
Speaker 2: We've made an awful walk back to that tee, but
Speaker 2: also we've just narrowed it down to like if I
Speaker 2: hit the fairway, it's good. If I do not, I
Speaker 2: am in a very bad spot. Versus you know, if
Speaker 2: you you look at like what people love about let's
Speaker 2: say the thirteenth hole, in which they've also you know,
Speaker 2: made a little more black and white, is like this
Speaker 2: like variety of If I get it up the left,
Speaker 2: it's really a good spot. It's flat, lie best angle
Speaker 2: in and every yard off that creek line that I
Speaker 2: go it gets a little bit tougher.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and to your point, I think that if
Speaker 3: the fairways were cut normally and the ball ran, you
Speaker 3: would have the precision that they want off the tee
Speaker 3: unless it's really muddy, which it's not gonna be muddy
Speaker 3: ever there, but it could be soft. But if you
Speaker 3: if you had the ball when it hits the ground
Speaker 3: and because the ground is so severe there, I mean
Speaker 3: seven is a great example. That's actually a hole where
Speaker 3: the way they cut the fairway toward the tee helps
Speaker 3: you because it's so narrow and it's got a it's
Speaker 3: got a little tilt to it and a lot a
Speaker 3: lot of tilt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the most surprising one hitting a golf
Speaker 2: ball on is like I hit a really good drive
Speaker 2: there that had a little bit of fade that.
Speaker 3: Landed in the middle of the fair at around are
Speaker 3: we going to go?
Speaker 2: No, I ended up in the rough, but I just
Speaker 2: thought about I was like, wow, like you really want
Speaker 2: to hit a draw into that fairway otherwise it is tiny.
Speaker 3: Tiny, It's it's literally five to eight yards of a
Speaker 3: spot if you hit a little bit of a cut otherwise,
Speaker 3: and the fairway counters not helping. But the point is
Speaker 3: even so even if you you hit that fairway, you've
Speaker 3: got a little bit of a side hill, sometimes downhill,
Speaker 3: lie uphill to a tiny green And I guess that's
Speaker 3: where I'd ask him, is don't you have a little
Speaker 3: more faith in your green complexes and the art the
Speaker 3: strategy that the original guys thought up to defend the course? Uh,
Speaker 3: it feels like you're not having enough faith in that
Speaker 3: part of the facility, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 3: to defend what you know, to uphold kind of the
Speaker 3: traditions of the tournament. And you could kind of go
Speaker 3: through every hole and find that stripping away of the
Speaker 3: strategy is sort of dumped it down in spots and
Speaker 3: it's made it It almost doesn't really make it harder
Speaker 3: when you make it so easy, and when, as you say,
Speaker 3: take away the gray.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like Augusta National in its best form
Speaker 2: plays against the best player in the world's egos. It
Speaker 2: dares them to hit shots that they don't want to
Speaker 2: necessarily hit right, and usually that's from perfect lies quote
Speaker 2: unquote perfect lies in the fair away where like, and
Speaker 2: I think you see this whenever you watch Old Masters
Speaker 2: is like, guys, you know we just did a flashback
Speaker 2: on Chip Beck on shotgun start. Yeah, And in the
Speaker 2: ninety three Masters he's got two thirty six to the
Speaker 2: front edge, his ball's on a little bit of a
Speaker 2: down slope, and he's standing there three shots behind Bernard
Speaker 2: Longer and he lays up yep. But it put him
Speaker 2: in this paradoxical position where he probably knew and deep
Speaker 2: down he had to go for it, but he just
Speaker 2: didn't want to do it. Like I love when golf
Speaker 2: at the highest level puts players in a situation where
Speaker 2: they don't want they don't want to do either of
Speaker 2: the options. And I think like a great example would
Speaker 2: be like the six hole at LACC would be like
Speaker 2: the six hole that's short part four at LACC, players
Speaker 2: don't want to go for it because of what's in front,
Speaker 2: but they also don't want to hit like a six
Speaker 2: n iron off the tee on a three hundred yard hole.
Speaker 2: Like to me, that's that That's kind of like the
Speaker 2: most interesting push and pull that you can give PGA
Speaker 2: tour players, the best players in the world, is multiple options,
Speaker 2: none of which are necessarily appetizing to them.
Speaker 3: Right Well, I'm working on this deep dive on the
Speaker 3: third hole, and it's the perfect example of what you described,
Speaker 3: because Bob Cupp added this trio of bunkers in the
Speaker 3: fairway short of the one fairway bunker that Mackenzie had.
Speaker 3: And I talked to Weiscoff years ago and it just
Speaker 3: drove him nuts. He said, I used to love to
Speaker 3: lay up there, And then I asked Crenshawn. He goes,
Speaker 3: nahuh not really. I wasn't really, I don't know about
Speaker 3: that play. And then I went and found some photos
Speaker 3: and there's a bunch of guys who used to lay
Speaker 3: up right in front of that bunker because they wanted
Speaker 3: a full shot into that green. There are other people
Speaker 3: who love to just get over that, just pass that
Speaker 3: bunker and have a shorter shot in, and now we're
Speaker 3: seeing everybody just throw it up at the green. It
Speaker 3: kind of like a video game that like rolls up
Speaker 3: the hill, comes down, and we've seen Scotty if he
Speaker 3: bails out, he bails out left because you'd rather hit
Speaker 3: it in the link to the green. So it's just
Speaker 3: kind of lost like putting those bunkers in. And then
Speaker 3: they also moved that fairway in before the tournament for
Speaker 3: some reason.
Speaker 4: You'll be shocked to know they didn't have any I asked,
Speaker 4: and the politely declined, I may be for spectating purposes,
Speaker 4: it may be a gronomy thing, but anyway, the fairway
Speaker 4: is cut really wide most of the year and you
Speaker 4: just go like, okay, so come tournament time, it's just
Speaker 4: it's becoming a one dimensional hole.
Speaker 3: And it should be sort of like six at LA.
Speaker 3: It should have a bunch of different philosophies on how
Speaker 3: to play it. And that alone right there as we know,
Speaker 3: and the kind of herd mentality of good good golfers
Speaker 3: and everybody just kind of doing what everybody else is doing.
Speaker 3: That's both fascinating to play, it's fascinating to watch, and
Speaker 3: it probably adds, you know, a little bit to the
Speaker 3: scoring average. It actually takes, you know, when there's certainty,
Speaker 3: there's just no hole that you can design that is
Speaker 3: immune from from these guys just just slaughtering it. But
Speaker 3: if you put a little doubt in their mind, it
Speaker 3: makes it. It makes a trickier and more interesting for everybody.
Speaker 2: Those bunkers in the layup area of three are are
Speaker 2: very if you think about if you think about, like
Speaker 2: what you have to do to make a PGA Tour
Speaker 2: player lay up in this day and age, is you
Speaker 2: have to make it so like so obvious that we're
Speaker 2: just giving you something. And I think that removal of
Speaker 2: say two of those bunkers would maybe prompt some players
Speaker 2: to lay up. Like one of my favorite things about
Speaker 2: the Masters is you see the old guard still hitting
Speaker 2: irons off that tee. It's like the you know, like
Speaker 2: the forty five and up crew still hit irons on
Speaker 2: that tee and and lay up and take that wedge
Speaker 2: because it is like I think, like, what's amazing about
Speaker 2: that hole in the grand scheme of things, is it
Speaker 2: offers the only time that you are able to hit
Speaker 2: a second shot from a flat lie right to a
Speaker 2: level target on the third hole. That's the only opportunity
Speaker 2: that you get to hit a wedge from a flat
Speaker 2: lie to a level target on a second shot at
Speaker 2: Augusta Nashville is a third hole, and that's what it's offering.
Speaker 2: But the layup has gotten is tough. It is not
Speaker 2: an easy layup.
Speaker 3: Well we'll see too, you know, they that part of
Speaker 3: the hole, the right side, took a huge hit in
Speaker 3: Helene from the photos I've seen from above, so we'll
Speaker 3: see if that changes the dynamic. But you're correct, and
Speaker 3: by the way, the other reason to lay up short
Speaker 3: of those bunkers is for the pin on the right,
Speaker 3: the back right. You know, the green used to have
Speaker 3: an even more pronounced sort of almost I'm not gonna
Speaker 3: say starfish, but it had little more pronounced wings. And
Speaker 3: there's also a beauty in that that you have different
Speaker 3: layups or different strategies for different hole locations. I mean,
Speaker 3: this is really not complicated stuff, but they seem to
Speaker 3: have consultants who don't understand these things, or they feel
Speaker 3: like it's their job to take some of those things
Speaker 3: away because options and freedom lead to to birdies or
Speaker 3: too much good play. It's just it's a classic argument,
Speaker 3: and I mean it's been going on since the twenties
Speaker 3: of penal design versus strategic and unfortunately they had, you know,
Speaker 3: a really strategic course that is still there's still a
Speaker 3: lot of strategy because of the speed of the greens,
Speaker 3: all the different angles and different things that still go on.
Speaker 3: The history everything, well most people know the history, like
Speaker 3: Ludwig probably didn't understand, probably didn't know Ben Hogan's quote
Speaker 3: about the eleventh al last year. But but there's that
Speaker 3: there's that sort of backstory wisdom that you that also
Speaker 3: plays into your your thinking there and so the more
Speaker 3: they chip away at that is just kind of frustrating
Speaker 3: and because we know it's it just makes it a
Speaker 3: little less interesting and a little less uh fun to watch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's uh an interesting aspect of
Speaker 2: of the you know, if you took the routing and
Speaker 2: strategy and if you took routing and laid it all
Speaker 2: the way into like the tree plantings, right, because that
Speaker 2: is would you say that'd be part of it, Like
Speaker 2: if you're building a golf course tomorrow, part of the
Speaker 2: routing processes tree clearing. Sure, so tree planting is it
Speaker 2: has impacts on the routing and we're having a routing
Speaker 2: discussion and strategy discussion. Really but if you think about it,
Speaker 2: it's like it's it's still one of the most, if
Speaker 2: not the most strategic golf course that we see these
Speaker 2: guys play every year. Yeah, but it is it is
Speaker 2: so far it has it has lost a lot of
Speaker 2: the strategic elements that it used to have, which is
Speaker 2: which is fascinating is you know, I think you could
Speaker 2: make a case that it was for up until you know,
Speaker 2: ninety nine, the most strategic every like like by far,
Speaker 2: one of the you know, along with the old course
Speaker 2: the most strategic golf course in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no question, And obviously it was inspired quite a
Speaker 3: bit by the old course, And yeah, I think you
Speaker 3: know the thing, it turned back to the rowdy. I
Speaker 3: think it'd be interesting to give each hole, I don't know,
Speaker 3: a grade or a number on where you in terms
Speaker 3: of their sort of strategy variability, some sort of index
Speaker 3: that kind of places that the holes at least in
Speaker 3: that stretch from the seventies to the nineties, and what
Speaker 3: they meant to the overall round in terms of excitement difficulty.
Speaker 3: Kind of like the way a writer doing a story
Speaker 3: would put out a storyboard and you'd have, you know,
Speaker 3: and you look up and you go, way a second,
Speaker 3: I've got all these depressing scenes, one on top of
Speaker 3: the other. Well, I want to mix these up and
Speaker 3: maybe have a comic relief moment here. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 3: a same thing with a symphony. You know, you don't
Speaker 3: want you want to have some some changes in mood
Speaker 3: and you build up to a big moment and and
Speaker 3: so you'd love to see them. Think about that a
Speaker 3: little bit more from the player's perspective, because I think
Speaker 3: that really plays so much into somebody feeling like they
Speaker 3: can get on a roll out there, and then also
Speaker 3: when they're hot, knowing when okay, this is not the
Speaker 3: hole for me to get greedy on. I am playing
Speaker 3: great today. I'll miss the eleventh green to the right
Speaker 3: because I got thirteen to fifteen coming up. That kind
Speaker 3: of stuff. And if we could just just get a
Speaker 3: little more of that thinking back into the way that plays,
Speaker 3: I think it'd be it'd be a lot more exciting.
Speaker 2: What would you say is the whole today that most
Speaker 2: non part three that most embraces the whole that you know,
Speaker 2: the holes in their forms in the like the seventies,
Speaker 2: eighties and nineties, really the you know the years that
Speaker 2: made the masters the masters.
Speaker 3: Uh well, I was going to say number two, but
Speaker 3: it's now it's now the easiest toll on the.
Speaker 2: Course statistically, bunker on the right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I'm not a fan of that, but I
Speaker 3: do love that it. You know, there is a there
Speaker 3: is a drive to kind of want to get it
Speaker 3: down the middle or down the left side and get
Speaker 3: the roll and have the shorter shot in. And I
Speaker 3: love that green. It's probably the one green that Robert
Speaker 3: Trent Jones in his life made better with the way
Speaker 3: it's bunkered and everything, and the layups kind of fun.
Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting when guys have to lay up. Actually,
Speaker 3: it's more fun to watch those shots. Although the shot
Speaker 3: into the green is pretty great too, but it is
Speaker 3: playing a lot easier. And as you say, that bunker
Speaker 3: on the right again, Samet, you know that bunker.
Speaker 2: Is the same thing we're we've talked about. It's the
Speaker 2: same discussion.
Speaker 3: If you if you have the fairways cut tight and
Speaker 3: rolling and you didn't have that bunker the right side
Speaker 3: would scare the daylights out of guys because the ball
Speaker 3: could just start running down into you know, the junk
Speaker 3: over there on the right. And that's not pretty over there.
Speaker 3: Now again they've lost some trees over there, but yeah
Speaker 3: it doesn't. And of course it's gotten so deep too,
Speaker 3: and it's just on the outside of a dog leg,
Speaker 3: which isn't really McKenzie's style and all that. But I
Speaker 3: don't think we're going to get that one taken out.
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, for any patron sitting behind
Speaker 2: two greens one of the best places you can see,
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and just I love going there. I'll
Speaker 2: go there on Saturday of the Masters, and I will
Speaker 2: just sit there for two hours just because it's just
Speaker 2: one of the best places to just watch golf shot
Speaker 2: golf shots well, because there's so much going on on
Speaker 2: that second and third shot, and.
Speaker 3: The pin is so different day to day, so if
Speaker 3: you go there more than once, you see some different
Speaker 3: stuff with different pins. You know, when it's back left
Speaker 3: from the from the fairway perspective, smart old guys lay
Speaker 3: up way to the right. They get it down there
Speaker 3: and then they hit into the length of the green
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. You know. I love the quadrant
Speaker 3: of two fair way uh three green, that little that
Speaker 3: little area, just because you can kind of pop back
Speaker 3: and forth, watch them t off four, watch them play
Speaker 3: into three. You can still watch two from a distance,
Speaker 3: and it's that's my I think that's actually my favorite
Speaker 3: spot other than you know, the top the grand stand
Speaker 3: on on Amen Corner at twelve's pretty cool, but you
Speaker 3: still see some good stuff there. But yeah, in terms
Speaker 3: of your question on other holes.
Speaker 2: I'm maybe ten would be outside of all the all
Speaker 2: the planting on the right that's made it so so
Speaker 2: tough on the right, there's no recovery really if you
Speaker 2: miss it right, But the t shot and second shot
Speaker 2: feels very what it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I give you that one. That's I think
Speaker 3: that is a good one. That green is just so
Speaker 3: I asked Crenshaw that last year. Why is that green
Speaker 3: so difficult to putt? It just is the shadows. I
Speaker 3: thought that was really interesting what Rory said about sixteen
Speaker 3: and the and the and the tree loss there fewer shadows.
Speaker 3: I think that that gets underrated on sunny days. How
Speaker 3: much shadows make reading greens. They're tricky. So again another
Speaker 3: little theory.
Speaker 2: That's your theory. Overcast? Uh yeah, with no best scoring conditions.
Speaker 3: I'll keep begging. It's one of these days. Shot links
Speaker 3: gonna they're gonna enter that weather data. I know Lemania
Speaker 3: would agree with me.
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 3: I just am dying to see what that what that
Speaker 3: data would look like if ken Venturre's it was ken
Speaker 3: Venturre's philosophy. You know that a that have soft, overcast
Speaker 3: days without shadows are just better for scoring for golfers.
Speaker 3: You just see the architectural features better. Uh, you have
Speaker 3: fewer distractions on putting when you're trying to read a pott.
Speaker 3: It's probably not as wain not necessarily, but there's a
Speaker 3: good chance. So anyway, it's but they don't they don't
Speaker 3: enter the weather on that on the I think they
Speaker 3: just do it for the day or something, but it
Speaker 3: doesn't allow you to quantify what might be happening under
Speaker 3: sunny versus overcast, or windy versus still, et cetera.
Speaker 2: All right, well you mentioned the crunch shaw q and
Speaker 2: a what else does the quadrilateral have coming ahead of
Speaker 2: the masters?
Speaker 3: This deep dive on the third hole? I just you know,
Speaker 3: I'd always have been I've always thought it was kind
Speaker 3: of a mystery why And it's me Mackenzie. I still
Speaker 3: haven't found where he is quoted supposedly as saying it
Speaker 3: was nearly a perfect hole. I'm the more I read,
Speaker 3: I'm more I'm convinced. He said that to keep Cliff
Speaker 3: for Roberts from screwing with it, and and Rod Whitten
Speaker 3: had a thing years later that Cliff wanted to put
Speaker 3: a lake. I'm looking at it right here down to
Speaker 3: the left on three. Anyway, he was not good when
Speaker 3: it came to architecture. So but I've always found it
Speaker 3: kind of a weird hole. So I talked to some players,
Speaker 3: and of course it has changed. The mentality from the
Speaker 3: tee it's it's bombed up there and that could change again.
Speaker 3: By the way, that just seems to be what guys
Speaker 3: have decided to do. So I'm looking at that, and uh,
Speaker 3: I've got I've had a few things the last few
Speaker 3: days and uh, a little landwalk coverage and you know,
Speaker 3: we'll see who gets in in Houston and all that
Speaker 3: good stuff. But I'm excited to finish off this thing
Speaker 3: on the third because I was shocked to find that's
Speaker 3: most definitely changed a lot. I knew it had changed some,
Speaker 3: but I didn't realize going deep into some of the
Speaker 3: stuff how much that hole has changed when it's touted
Speaker 3: as the least changed hole on the course.
Speaker 2: All right, well, thank you for for giving us some
Speaker 2: time talking the routing, and we will we'll see you
Speaker 2: in a week. Yeah, looking forward to see to seeing you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: having some breakfasts in the media center, a little.
Speaker 3: Breakfast, a few ice cream sandwiches hopefully, and yeah, it
Speaker 3: should be a good week.
Speaker 2: So let's hope we's going to be there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope. So no no blueberry or you know,
Speaker 3: let's hope. Let's hope they made plenty and because it is,
Speaker 3: it is a delicacy. And yeah, and let's hope for
Speaker 3: some good weather. I think it'd be fun to it'd
Speaker 3: be nice to see the guys be able to play,
Speaker 3: not in a gale force win or in forty eight
Speaker 3: degree weather. And plus, with this field the size it is,
Speaker 3: we we need good weather to get them around and
Speaker 3: finish our time because they are. They're pushing five forty
Speaker 3: on on the late weekdays if there's any wind at all,
Speaker 3: and with ninety I think it's gonna end up being
Speaker 3: ninety six players. I mean, I haven't looked at the
Speaker 3: Houston scores, but.
Speaker 2: Well, the Toasty Toasty's lurking. He's a he's a demon
Speaker 2: on at Memorial Park.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so that would be great to add him
Speaker 3: to the field as well. Wouldn't that be nice.
Speaker 2: To be incredible? Yeah, so truly incredible if he's in there.
Speaker 2: All right, right, Well, we'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 2: Everybody check out the Quadrilateral subscribe if you don't. If
Speaker 2: you don't yet, it's a great golf reading there. Thanks Andy,
Speaker 2: all right, big thanks to Jeff for coming on. And
Speaker 2: before we get to Rob Collins and the greens at
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Speaker 2: am joined here by golf off architects extraordinary Rob Collins,
Speaker 2: who I would say has been known to build a
Speaker 2: few wild greens of his own, a few thought provoking, provocative,
Speaker 2: maybe polarizing greens in his day, And we're going to
Speaker 2: talk about some of the some of the craziest greens
Speaker 2: in the world Augusta National. I think when you first
Speaker 2: see these greens, they provoke a lot of thoughts, They
Speaker 2: make you feel things, and I think you know, at
Speaker 2: his core you want golf architecture to make you feel
Speaker 2: certain ways. And I think that's one of the things
Speaker 2: that that Augustin National. While I think we get a
Speaker 2: lot of muted commentary from players, I think deep down
Speaker 2: it does make them feel a lot of a wide
Speaker 2: range of emotions when they play. So, Rob, if you
Speaker 2: could take us back to the first time you saw
Speaker 2: Augustin National as greens, what what were your big takeaways?
Speaker 1: I Uh, I was lucky to dad my dad had
Speaker 1: a knack for getting practice round tickets. It was a
Speaker 1: kind of a miracle. He would land these tickets and
Speaker 1: I don't. My brother and I never got them, and
Speaker 1: he would get them. And so I got to go
Speaker 1: with my dad quite a bit, and we actually landed
Speaker 1: real tickets for the very first time. I went was
Speaker 1: in ninety six for the second round, and remember it
Speaker 1: so well, and followed this guy named Tiger Woods around
Speaker 1: a lot and was blown away by his talent. But
Speaker 1: speaking about the green specifically, I remember just being in
Speaker 1: awe of number six green. I had never seen anything
Speaker 1: like that, really, I mean, I'd been to the Old
Speaker 1: Course at that point, but that was the closest thing
Speaker 1: I'd ever seen to a contour like that, certainly the
Speaker 1: only thing I'd ever seen in America like that. I
Speaker 1: mean that that hole just blew my mind.
Speaker 2: And then which contour. Let's let's talk a little more
Speaker 2: about six screen. What what specifically about the contour?
Speaker 1: It was the big contour that comes off the if
Speaker 1: you're facing the green the high right side, as it
Speaker 1: transitions down to the left, there's just a really big
Speaker 1: sharp transition, and I remember thinking, Man, if you got
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of that, you'd be in big trouble.
Speaker 1: And then not only that, if you don't if you're
Speaker 1: putting from down below back up, and we've seen this before.
Speaker 1: Guys hit it and they just don't quite get there,
Speaker 1: and they get to try that same putt again, which
Speaker 1: must be one of the loneliest and most awful feelings
Speaker 1: in the world when you know you're going to hit
Speaker 1: it a third time. If you don't hit it hard
Speaker 1: enough for a fourth time, I mean, it's just going
Speaker 1: to keep happening.
Speaker 2: So that that green. You know Bob Crosby, who I know,
Speaker 2: you know well, he came on this pod last fall
Speaker 2: and he described this this period of augustin National as
Speaker 2: Mackenzie on Ass.
Speaker 1: You know, I love that. That was one of my
Speaker 1: favorite podcasts ever. I'm a big fan of his and
Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoyed everything he said, hung on every word and
Speaker 1: he's right. I mean, Mackenzie was really doing some radical
Speaker 1: stuff at that time. I mean, look at some of
Speaker 1: the mounds around the Jockey Club. And in anticipation of
Speaker 1: this little discussion here, I went back to an old
Speaker 1: book I have by Stan Birdie about that runs through
Speaker 1: the changes. Have you ever seen that book.
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, really cool book.
Speaker 1: And it's fun to look at those old pictures and
Speaker 1: just think of the sheer boldness of some of the
Speaker 1: stuff he was doing.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he did so few bunkers around the golf course.
Speaker 2: And I think like one of the things that sticks
Speaker 2: out to me about the golf course every time I
Speaker 2: go around is, you know, it's a it's a really
Speaker 2: heaving sight. And I talked with Jeff shackle Ford to
Speaker 2: the beginning of this podcast about that. But where where
Speaker 2: there needed to be interest, it's so like eccentric the features.
Speaker 2: It's it's mounds. Like if you think about like a
Speaker 2: perfect example of this is between eight and one, right,
Speaker 2: that's really flat right there, there's nothing really going on,
Speaker 2: and he built this like series of mounds that carries
Speaker 2: the They're almost connected. When you look at him from
Speaker 2: far away, you can see how the features just kind
Speaker 2: of pour into the other, into the into the other
Speaker 2: green there and the greens are obviously very close. But
Speaker 2: like you think about one, it's like right out of
Speaker 2: the gate with one and obviously ten was the first
Speaker 2: hole originally, but right out of the gate with one
Speaker 2: that is just an insane green to start the day.
Speaker 1: It is an unbelievable grain. And one thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to say on this podcast is that one green is
Speaker 1: one of my favorites on the entire golf course, and
Speaker 1: I think that it's very much overlooked. Its shadowed by
Speaker 1: five and fourteen because I think they're later in the round.
Speaker 1: But where number one grain occurs in the round? Obviously,
Speaker 1: the first hole, you know, is a spectator. You're you're
Speaker 1: thinking about what's coming next, you know, what are the
Speaker 1: guys doing on the course, and they're kind of just
Speaker 1: getting through one. But that first green is not something
Speaker 1: to be slept on. It is a work of art
Speaker 1: and it's amazing.
Speaker 2: It never will get us too because it's the first hole.
Speaker 1: That's That's what I'm trying to say exactly, is like
Speaker 1: if it was the sixteenth hole or something, people would
Speaker 1: be going crazy and.
Speaker 2: You think from there, how the how the greens work?
Speaker 2: But it's you know, you go from there and immediately
Speaker 2: the second green is so wildly different. And I think
Speaker 2: that's something for me that really stands out is the
Speaker 2: immense variety. They aren't like I think I was thinking about.
Speaker 2: I did an exercise where I thought about my five
Speaker 2: favorite green sets of greens in America, and like one
Speaker 2: of them that's up at new the top is Chicago Golf.
Speaker 2: In Chicago Golf, I think like a lot of it
Speaker 2: has to do with the site, but like most of
Speaker 2: their greens are up right, you know, they're kind of
Speaker 2: up in the air. Augusta has every type of green
Speaker 2: you could imagine. Some on the ground. One is a
Speaker 2: great example of a green that's up two the next
Speaker 2: green just sits so beautifully on the ground.
Speaker 1: It does. And the other thing that's interesting about Augusta
Speaker 1: is when you go there for the first time, and
Speaker 1: if you watch the course on television, it is easy
Speaker 1: to kind of come away with the impression that all
Speaker 1: the greens have these big transitions in them, because you know,
Speaker 1: that was my memory the first time out seeing number six,
Speaker 1: seeing number five, number fourteen, number one, like number two,
Speaker 1: for instance, I mean a lot of it's just kind
Speaker 1: of a tilted plane, you know, and if you get
Speaker 1: in the wrong spot, it kills you. Same with number three.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of greens that don't have you know,
Speaker 1: massive internal contour, but tilt in such a way with
Speaker 1: the land that it's it can really hurt you. If
Speaker 1: you get in the wrong spot. You number nine, I
Speaker 1: mean it's got a little it's got a step in
Speaker 1: the middle, but it's not like number six, for instance.
Speaker 2: I think you make like an awesome point there. I
Speaker 2: think your early times around the golf course, you like
Speaker 2: it's impossible not to fixate on the greens that are
Speaker 2: so bold in their contouring, like the front on fourteen
Speaker 2: and five, Like you just go up to those greens.
Speaker 1: And oh, they're just just like my god. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But if for me, who you know, I'm lucky. I
Speaker 2: get to spend all week there every year, you know,
Speaker 2: and I just walk around and watch golf and stare
Speaker 2: at the greens and stare at the golf course. But
Speaker 2: to me, like you start to appreciate small features more
Speaker 2: and more. Like a green that I've really come to
Speaker 2: like over time is the seventh green, and how how
Speaker 2: it's just like so different than the other greens. And
Speaker 2: this is this is not a Mackenzie green, This is
Speaker 2: a Perry Maxwell green.
Speaker 1: Maxwell Green, he built some amazing greens in his career.
Speaker 2: Right, It's like kind of like sometimes I go down
Speaker 2: like a thought experiment of like what if every green
Speaker 2: was Maxwell, how different would the golf course be the
Speaker 2: routing would definitely be different, right, like because Maxwell you
Speaker 2: can already see with his changes he loved going up,
Speaker 2: playing up to ridges, and you see like his two
Speaker 2: biggest changes seven Green going from down low to up
Speaker 2: and then ten going up, and those are I think,
Speaker 2: like Ten's one of the great second shots on the
Speaker 2: golf course where it really gets you. Your mind is
Speaker 2: just going crazy because of the topography, the wind, the elevation,
Speaker 2: and then you're hitting into the screen that's got like
Speaker 2: you know, it's just a hard green to hit into.
Speaker 2: But seven Green like the way it had as that
Speaker 2: kind of little bisecting spine, and it's got like all
Speaker 2: these little tiny pockets on it, and it's so shallow.
Speaker 2: The orientation of it is completely different than the first
Speaker 2: six holes that you play. It's small, it requires a
Speaker 2: very precise shot, and then it's got just neat little
Speaker 2: internal contouring that you can particularly pick up on on
Speaker 2: on in early mornings or late at nights out there.
Speaker 1: And it's a fun one to watch approach shots on.
Speaker 1: I mean, in twenty nineteen, I was fortunate to be
Speaker 1: there with my good friend John Allen and we watched
Speaker 1: Tiger birdie that hole and you know he gets kind
Speaker 1: of hit that right place and it came back and
Speaker 1: so you know, I mean, that's what's one thing I
Speaker 1: love so much about Augusta National is that you know
Speaker 1: the drama is played out at the same place every
Speaker 1: year over and over and over, and you kind of
Speaker 1: know generally where the pins are going to be, and like,
Speaker 1: if the guy hits this kind of shot, it's going
Speaker 1: to go there. And so that's A seven totally exemplifies
Speaker 1: that those little pocketed pins.
Speaker 2: I think something that some of your golf courses can
Speaker 2: do is you can set up with greens to make
Speaker 2: things extraordinarily difficult, hard to get to, but also in
Speaker 2: places that have a lot of potential gathering points. And
Speaker 2: I think that's something with Augusta like where if you
Speaker 2: did set up there and you went around with with
Speaker 2: with whole locations, you could make it where guys where
Speaker 2: we'd see low scores like all over the place because
Speaker 2: of just whole occasions, or you can make it like
Speaker 2: you would you know, they always have a great balance
Speaker 2: of this, or you can make it where it's like
Speaker 2: almost impossible to get close to anything. You know, what
Speaker 2: is it? How do you go about that when you're
Speaker 2: building greens and what what do Augustas do so well
Speaker 2: that they create that.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you definitely want to do that. I
Speaker 1: mean that that's probably the number one arsenal or number
Speaker 1: thing in your in your in your arsenal or in
Speaker 1: your in your playbook as an architect to try to
Speaker 1: achieve that, you know, tired old maxim of you know,
Speaker 1: playable for everyone, but challenges the best players. And but
Speaker 1: that's what Augusta does so well. I mean that it's
Speaker 1: it's an amazing members course and then comes on and
Speaker 1: hosts the biggest tournament of the year too. And you know,
Speaker 1: they do have pins out there that are easy, but
Speaker 1: there's some that will just absolutely kill you if you
Speaker 1: get in the wrong spot. I mean, I think about
Speaker 1: number number fourteen. If you miss that left hand pin
Speaker 1: a little to the right, you're going to have you
Speaker 1: might be off the green. There's so much slope in
Speaker 1: that part of the land, and so those greens really
Speaker 1: utilize the natural slope of the land which way it's tilting,
Speaker 1: and if you get on the wrong side of that,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just gonna it's gonna it's gonna kill you,
Speaker 1: or maybe it'll give you an opportunity to hit a
Speaker 1: heroic shot too by playing to a certain contour. In
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, I was up there by number nine and
Speaker 1: saw Tiger hit the best shot I've ever seen anyone hit,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: The lag putt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was unbelievable.
Speaker 2: That was insane.
Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. It was like he is in real
Speaker 1: big trouble right now, and I mean, of course everyone
Speaker 1: you're pulling for him, and then he hits that shot
Speaker 1: and it's like that was what was so cool about
Speaker 1: it is that it can be done, but it takes
Speaker 1: an extremely high level of precision if you're in the
Speaker 1: wrong spot.
Speaker 2: That is like kind of a recipe of Augusta Nashvial.
Speaker 2: In general, I think where it plays the best is
Speaker 2: that every shot as possible, and that's where it plays
Speaker 2: with the best players in the world's egos a little bit,
Speaker 2: because none of the shots are you know. I think
Speaker 2: like if you think about like your US Open thick rough,
Speaker 2: which I think they've gone a little away from that,
Speaker 2: but we can still use it as the example your
Speaker 2: your father's US Open, where it's ten inch rough and
Speaker 2: you're in it it's just impossible. You can't do anything
Speaker 2: with it. Augustina never has that kind of impossibleness. There's
Speaker 2: always a way you can achieve a shot, and you can,
Speaker 2: if you're willing to take it on, hit a great
Speaker 2: shot that completely flips the tables on your situation. And
Speaker 2: I think that that with the way the Greens in work,
Speaker 2: that it's all kind of the Greens that set that
Speaker 2: up totally.
Speaker 1: And that's what's so fun about If you ever have
Speaker 1: a chance to go to a practice around to anyone
Speaker 1: who's listening, just go, I mean, got it. It's so
Speaker 1: fun to watch them hit these different putts and experiment
Speaker 1: are around to different locations without the you know, having
Speaker 1: to count the score, and so they're trying all kinds
Speaker 1: of different things, and you know, you see them putting
Speaker 1: with their back to the hole and aiming away like
Speaker 1: the puts on number nine for instance, I mean to
Speaker 1: a lower pin. I mean where you're aiming versus where
Speaker 1: the ball lands up is just two completely different things.
Speaker 1: And it's fun to watch the best in the world
Speaker 1: experiment in that way.
Speaker 2: It is it is I think you know you you
Speaker 2: talked about fourteen, how it's set in the side of
Speaker 2: the hill. I think that's another aspect of Augusta's greens, right.
Speaker 1: You have.
Speaker 2: You have greens that are on ridges, kind of we
Speaker 2: talked about ten and seven.
Speaker 1: Like number three. Three is a good example.
Speaker 2: Three is a great example of ridges. You have greens
Speaker 2: that sit on the ground, like two a good example.
Speaker 2: Other good examples would be like eleven, twelve, thirteen. Then
Speaker 2: you have kind of the holes that play along the
Speaker 2: side of the hill, and those are you know, fourteen's
Speaker 2: obviously one of the most famous greens of that stretch,
Speaker 2: and I think it's gotten a lot of love over
Speaker 2: the years. It's it should I mean, it's got this
Speaker 2: amazing false front and almost three tiers that kind of
Speaker 2: go down like steps. It's beautiful green. The one that
Speaker 2: I find myself staring at all the time is the
Speaker 2: seventeenth and I think like one of the you know,
Speaker 2: they have all these holes that run along the hillside,
Speaker 2: which is like a pretty severe hill. It's not an
Speaker 2: easy I imagine, it's not an easy place to build
Speaker 2: golf along, and in particular at the green.
Speaker 1: Correct building the side of a hill is very challenging.
Speaker 2: Yes, Like to me, one of the things that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Is the optical illusion sometimes that these sidehill holes present
Speaker 2: where there's so much slope, but they build up in
Speaker 2: seventeen it's the classic example that that hole on the
Speaker 2: right where they have that high, you know, right whole location,
Speaker 2: it looks like it's like up in the air. But
Speaker 2: if you're coming from the left side, it's like an
Speaker 2: optical illusion. It almost seems it runs away so fast.
Speaker 2: It's insane, Yes, insane optical illusion. But that green to me,
Speaker 2: with all the different variations, you have the back left
Speaker 2: section that's amazing, you have the right over the bunker,
Speaker 2: and then you obviously have the back right location. That one,
Speaker 2: to me is one that that just I could sit
Speaker 2: there and just stare at it for days. Is there
Speaker 2: another one for you that really stands out?
Speaker 1: Number five is one that I could stare at for days.
Speaker 1: I talked about one earlier. One green on my last
Speaker 1: trip to Augusta, which was last year, that I spent
Speaker 1: some extra time around that. I don't know if I'd
Speaker 1: ever really stared at it from this direction. They were
Speaker 1: actually mowing the green at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: so I was really close to it. Was number sixteen, and
Speaker 1: you know sixteen has the famous Sunday pin, and you
Speaker 1: would think that it would have a really sharp transition
Speaker 1: in the green there from the back to the front,
Speaker 1: but it's more subtle than it seems like because of
Speaker 1: how much the balls gather down there. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a tilted plane, and I think it you know, probably
Speaker 1: you have a little bit of a flat spot on
Speaker 1: the back where the ball can hold up, and then
Speaker 1: it kind of goes to like four or five six
Speaker 1: percent probably, and then it slows down at the bottom
Speaker 1: and it just fits in there. Think that's one thing
Speaker 1: that's so cool about Augusta. It's so elegant. Things just
Speaker 1: flow and fit in. It's extremely bald, but at the
Speaker 1: same time it all ties in. And fourteen might be
Speaker 1: the you know, the best example of that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it just ties in perfectly a grade on the left
Speaker 1: hand side and then just kind of tumbles and it's
Speaker 1: like it's not it's not forced, it's not trying to
Speaker 1: do things, but it does them effortlessly and in a
Speaker 1: very profound way.
Speaker 2: Mackenzie used to would write about how they should just
Speaker 2: like be effortless flows like a long horizon line, and
Speaker 2: that's you know, how he tried to get that into
Speaker 2: I think, like, what if you were gonna critique some
Speaker 2: of the new work is that it has brought a
Speaker 2: sharpness to some of the greens that didn't exist before.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking particularly of like the new work on the
Speaker 2: backside of six is very sharp where it used to
Speaker 2: just kind of flow up, and I think like it's
Speaker 2: got to be one of the harder balances if you
Speaker 2: put yourself in the shoes of an architect there of.
Speaker 2: And I think the club probably grapples a little bit
Speaker 2: with this, is like are we a golf tournament venue
Speaker 2: for the best players in the world or still or
Speaker 2: a club for our members, right, because you know, I
Speaker 2: think like some of the work has lost a little
Speaker 2: of that art artistry, but it's in the it feels like,
Speaker 2: in the vein of of being a little more penal.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I remember having that conversation with you
Speaker 1: about six last year, and that that is it's a
Speaker 1: valid point. I mean, you know that that might be
Speaker 1: one of those things that overnight sometimes just kind of
Speaker 1: changes and nobody really notices it, but it kind of
Speaker 1: softened a little bit around the edges. The other one
Speaker 1: I remember running into, uh, I think I was talking
Speaker 1: to Jeff Shackelford last year and we were talking about
Speaker 1: how cool the front left pin on thirteen is that
Speaker 1: Mackenzie drew. How if you look at the old drawings,
Speaker 1: I feel like that should be discussed too, that that
Speaker 1: was such a neat location that's not there, but that
Speaker 1: would be cool if you could go back to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean what dynamics would would be reintroduced
Speaker 2: if they got you know, originally Augusta National had all
Speaker 2: these tongues and you know they and what I mean
Speaker 2: by that is like the imagine the edges just extending
Speaker 2: a little bit further and they're almost like a mee
Speaker 2: boy shapes to them, and they would What would that
Speaker 2: do to the golf course? If you were to be
Speaker 2: able to reintroduce some of those tongues, I.
Speaker 1: Think it would introduce another layer of complexity and challenge.
Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the old pictures of
Speaker 1: four and seven and nine, those tongues are probably too tight,
Speaker 1: at least that's the way they appear in the photos.
Speaker 1: They would need to be a little more substantial than
Speaker 1: they looked in the early thirties. But you know, Mackenzie
Speaker 1: had a way of tucking those behind a bunker or
Speaker 1: next to a little mound or something where you could
Speaker 1: utilize a contour to get close and play away from
Speaker 1: you know, play away from a hole, or you had
Speaker 1: to challenge a bunker. I think it would be interesting.
Speaker 1: I don't think it would be less interesting if you could.
Speaker 2: Restore one old whole location that doesn't exist anymore, would
Speaker 2: it be that front left one on thirteen?
Speaker 1: I think so. I think thirteen is one of the
Speaker 1: maybe five or ten best holes in the world, and
Speaker 1: it's just an incredible golf hole, and just for the
Speaker 1: sake of, you know, making it go to eleven, maybe
Speaker 1: that would be fun.
Speaker 2: I feel like that green the hole gets talked about,
Speaker 2: but there is so great and how it just promotes
Speaker 2: and I think like where I always tell people to
Speaker 2: walk Augusta backwards, like you start on eighteen green and
Speaker 2: you walk backwards because like you look at the green
Speaker 2: and then the hole makes a lot of sense. And
Speaker 2: I think thirteen thirteen is kind of like the crown
Speaker 2: jewel of how you can orient to green and contour
Speaker 2: green to reinforce how you want the gameplay of a
Speaker 2: hole to play out. Yeah, because that green makes everything
Speaker 2: else work on the hole.
Speaker 1: It does. I mean, you can get to those front
Speaker 1: right or back right pins, but you've got to challenge
Speaker 1: the creek. If you kind of wimp out or hit
Speaker 1: not quite the right shot, you kind of get hung up,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you're going, oh god,
Speaker 1: I don't want a three put I can't leave them
Speaker 1: about to three putt and par a par five. And
Speaker 1: so it creates this dynamic in your mind. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's such a fascinating hole.
Speaker 2: It's you know, like off the tee. It's just saying, hey,
Speaker 2: get up the left side, just hit it up there.
Speaker 2: But you stand there and you're like, I, I can't
Speaker 2: mess with that creek, and you bail out right because
Speaker 2: the green, the way the green shaped that tells you
Speaker 2: to hit it up the left beyond anything right it
Speaker 2: the way it kind of angles and opens all the
Speaker 2: if you're of the left, every contour on that green
Speaker 2: helps you funnel it right.
Speaker 1: Well. Not only not only that, but another thing that's
Speaker 1: so cool about that hole is the left side has
Speaker 1: far left, far less right to left slope, so you
Speaker 1: have a you have a better, more level life if
Speaker 1: you're playing up the right hand side, you've got to
Speaker 1: a ball above your feet with the green going like
Speaker 1: that the other way, and that just adds to the
Speaker 1: complexity of it.
Speaker 2: And I always say, this is the best golfer you know,
Speaker 2: is probably the most conservative golfer you now, right, Like
Speaker 2: they're actually like the biggest whims because the better you get,
Speaker 2: the more averse you get to any sort of risk yep.
Speaker 2: So it's like an amazing t shot because it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: like I'm dumping it out right or I'm like going
Speaker 2: to try and just like hit it up the right
Speaker 2: and if it turns over, it turns over. That's I
Speaker 2: imagine how most of these guys play play the hole.
Speaker 2: But I cannot mess with left. So then if you
Speaker 2: just end up hitting it where you're looking, you end
Speaker 2: up with this awful lie. I mean, it's horrendous, it's impossible.
Speaker 1: And it's just scary as hell, and you you're you're
Speaker 1: then your e'er in your mind going I've got a
Speaker 1: birdie this hole. But then you've got this shot that
Speaker 1: feels basically impossible. And I mean that's that back nine
Speaker 1: is just so fascinating because it's just whole after all,
Speaker 1: after hole you get this interesting dynamic where the guys
Speaker 1: got to make that decision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's all because of that orientation of
Speaker 2: the green because from the right, the other thing that's
Speaker 2: working against you is the green. The green's all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: super shallow and unforgiving, and you've got a hook lie,
Speaker 2: which makes it even more unforgiving because the ball is
Speaker 2: gonna move left and you're gonna end up left. But
Speaker 2: if you don't, you know, Like, one of the things
Speaker 2: that's super interesting about the shot is like long irons
Speaker 2: do not draw the way you think they like. You
Speaker 2: get those lies and you think like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: gonna hook, but they don't hook because they don't have
Speaker 2: as much spin on them as the short irons. So
Speaker 2: you're weighing that and you don't. I feel like these
Speaker 2: guys hit less and less of these, and then it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: can I get it into the pocket? Like I just
Speaker 2: think it's a fascinating aspect And I think one of
Speaker 2: the things that goes a little like if they reintroduce
Speaker 2: that front contour, I'd be interested to see how guys
Speaker 2: laid up. That's like, I think the most interesting thing
Speaker 2: about the front pin would you see guys like, hit
Speaker 2: it way back?
Speaker 1: Would you go? I could? I could. You could make
Speaker 1: an argument that you would want to go far to
Speaker 1: the right, wouldn't you way right and right, way right
Speaker 1: and long? And then you're playing back across the green.
Speaker 1: You have green all the way. All you got to
Speaker 1: do is hit it over the creek to be on land.
Speaker 1: It's not you know, disasters probably not there. But you
Speaker 1: could use that contour then to feed it down where
Speaker 1: you could you could play safe but have a reward.
Speaker 1: You know, that would be God, that'd be interesting. But
Speaker 1: there again, you know, is it is it easier to
Speaker 1: challenge the creek on the left and then just you're
Speaker 1: just staring right at it and it's just like this
Speaker 1: tiny little pitch to a little flat spot. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe that's easier. I don't know. But if that's the
Speaker 1: type of thing you'd be thinking about, is.
Speaker 2: What's your least favorite green out there?
Speaker 1: My least favorite green? Sorry, this has taken me a while.
Speaker 2: That's always my favorite question about it.
Speaker 1: It's a hard question. Obviously, I like the eleventh hole,
Speaker 1: but Mackenzie had some really awesome mounds on the front
Speaker 1: right that kind of have been softened over time, and
Speaker 1: I think that would be interesting to have those back.
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's no way really a slide of
Speaker 1: that green. I mean, I think it's a good green,
Speaker 1: but maybe it's kind of the Maybe it's the least
Speaker 1: dynamic of the greens. I mean, it's the pond plays
Speaker 1: such a big role in that hole. It's maybe not
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is it's maybe
Speaker 1: not so much about the green as it is other
Speaker 1: something else.
Speaker 2: I think about, like greens as this surrounds. Also, it
Speaker 2: feels like that those mounds have been taken out of play.
Speaker 1: They're really not. I mean, if you look at old pictures,
Speaker 1: I mean, those things were huge, and that that's where
Speaker 1: Bob's comment about Mackenzie, you know on acid. I mean,
Speaker 1: those were so strong in the mounds on eighth that
Speaker 1: you mentioned, and there was a huge mound on the
Speaker 1: left of seventeen. If you look at all old historic
Speaker 1: photos and you know, I think that you know, Augusta
Speaker 1: National is such a bold and fascinating piece of property.
Speaker 1: He was kind of matching the built environment to that
Speaker 1: boldness and not shying away from it, I think is
Speaker 1: what he was trying to do and he achieved it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's got this sense of like, wow, this
Speaker 1: place is just it embraces its boldness. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1: It was like a lot of people would probably shy
Speaker 1: away from the baldness of the property and try to
Speaker 1: build something softer. That's not what happened.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's like, you know, we've mentioned Bob's
Speaker 2: comment about the asset thing, but like this was such
Speaker 2: a different golf course anything that people had seen. I'm
Speaker 2: reading Kurt Sampson's book right now, and like a lot
Speaker 2: of the players hated the golf course the first the
Speaker 2: early play, they were like, what is this golf course?
Speaker 2: You know, because it was it's out there, It introduced
Speaker 2: like it was certainly like a it was a push
Speaker 2: in a direction. And really I think like one of
Speaker 2: the things that's fascinating about the history is like this
Speaker 2: was effectively like the last great golf course built before
Speaker 2: the Great Depression. You know, there were some that were
Speaker 2: being built by Perry Maxwell and in Oklahoma and Kansas
Speaker 2: and you know, and those, but like this golf course,
Speaker 2: then the art of golf architecture just hit a screeching
Speaker 2: halt because of the Great Depression in World War Two.
Speaker 1: But this golf came in vogue and housing developments afterwards,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you don't really have
Speaker 1: anything built like that for a very very long time.
Speaker 2: I think those mounds on a Evan, you know, to
Speaker 2: get back to that, what's become like the play and
Speaker 2: this is you know, those mounds really pushed to the
Speaker 2: front of that front right of that green. What's become
Speaker 2: the play And you see this is like the Scottie
Speaker 2: Scheffler playbook. He just dumps it to the right, just
Speaker 2: does not like Scotty's trying to hit the front right
Speaker 2: of that green. That's all he's trying to do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like it's not going left. You know, we saw Ludwig
Speaker 2: last year missed it left. He's the one thing you
Speaker 2: can't do, yea. And he just dumps it over there
Speaker 2: and he gets up and down. If those if there's
Speaker 2: a giant mound there, I think you would think, like.
Speaker 1: You'd think twice about it.
Speaker 2: Because you could if it's firm, you could hit the mound.
Speaker 2: It could bounce into the.
Speaker 1: Water for sure. And Mackenzie talked about I mean if
Speaker 1: you read their comments about the construction. Of course, you know,
Speaker 1: the game's changed so much now. I don't know that
Speaker 1: they would do it, but it was so much. It
Speaker 1: was about running the ball in, you know, having contour influence.
Speaker 1: But I think your points valid, Like if those were
Speaker 1: really firm, I mean, it could kick and redirect and
Speaker 1: in a way that you don't want. And you know,
Speaker 1: another thing that's so fascinating about the course is how
Speaker 1: many greens were based at least in part on something
Speaker 1: from you know, Scotland. You know, you just go through them.
Speaker 1: It's one after another. I mean four the Eden five
Speaker 1: was inspired by seventeen at Saint Andrews. Six was a ridan,
Speaker 1: seven was valley of sin in front of eighteen at
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew's. Eight was a punch bowl. He talks about
Speaker 1: number seventeen at Mierfield. I think then, you know, going
Speaker 1: through the back nine fourteen and seventeen. Seventeen was supposed
Speaker 1: to be the opposite of the fourteenth green at Saint Andrews,
Speaker 1: where you could come in from the far right to
Speaker 1: play up against the slope that you were talking about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: whereas it h Yeah, anyway, it's just it's cool how
Speaker 1: they implemented those concepts on a hilly Georgia site. I
Speaker 1: think that's one of the neatest thing that's ever been accomplished.
Speaker 2: Also, I think, like you know, inspiration gets a bad term,
Speaker 2: like templates have gotten this kind of like I think
Speaker 2: people love like the identifiability of it, like they make
Speaker 2: golf architecture a little approachable. But there are some that
Speaker 2: have like resisted against this, like oh, it's just templess.
Speaker 2: But like one of the things I love is like
Speaker 2: people are like look at six and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: it's not really a radan, Like that's but it's like
Speaker 2: that's an adaptation of a radan, And I.
Speaker 1: Think that's kind of I think that's an important point
Speaker 1: is that they were capturing the spirit of those holes
Speaker 1: and some of the questions that they asked and just
Speaker 1: the essence of them. And a lot of it was
Speaker 1: about how the ball reacted when it hit the ground.
Speaker 1: And you know, even though it's a much more aerial
Speaker 1: game today, Augusta National still makes these guys think about
Speaker 1: how the ball is going to move on the.
Speaker 2: Ground exactly, I think, I mean, I mean, that's.
Speaker 1: What it's all about. That's the classical adaptation. I think
Speaker 1: you have to think about those kind of things.
Speaker 2: And I love like, you know, like the normal dan
Speaker 2: Hold does not have the whole location on the right
Speaker 2: side on six for example, but that whole location is
Speaker 2: so fun on Saturdays when they put it up there.
Speaker 1: Man, that's a tough hole, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's crazy that is.
Speaker 1: You look at it from the tee and you think
Speaker 1: about hitting that. That's a tough one. And then you know,
Speaker 1: standing behind the tee on sixteen, I mean that isn't
Speaker 1: The guys are so good they kind of make it
Speaker 1: look somewhat easy to the bowlpen behind the the bunker.
Speaker 1: But god, that is a scary looking shot with a
Speaker 1: tournament on the line. To try to imagine that.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of scary shots out.
Speaker 1: There, one after another.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, last question, what green would you have
Speaker 2: in your backyard if you could have one?
Speaker 1: I think I'd go with fourteen.
Speaker 2: It's hard to go wrong with that one.
Speaker 1: What about you seventeen.
Speaker 2: Seventeen? I do love seventeen. I think i'd go fourteen.
Speaker 2: It's become kind of the hipster thing, you know, I think, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I would do that one. Would be a heart.
Speaker 2: One honestly would be probably the most fun one to
Speaker 2: chip around. Yeah, yeah, two would even be cool. I
Speaker 2: think two is underrated, right, yeah, because you can get I.
Speaker 1: Think three is underrated too. I mean basic, it's of
Speaker 1: all the holes, it's one of the least changed. I mean,
Speaker 1: they added a cluster of bunkers in the fairway, but
Speaker 1: as far as the hole goes, it's pretty darn similar
Speaker 1: to the original and similar length too, and it's it's
Speaker 1: a very scary approach shot.
Speaker 2: It's it's funny. Jeff and I talked a lot about three.
Speaker 2: We talked and he was talking about the introduction of
Speaker 2: the extra bunkers on the left, how it's taken a
Speaker 2: little of the essence of that layup away where you
Speaker 2: could play left and then you're in shore of the
Speaker 2: bunker and then you're hitting up.
Speaker 1: Into the rather than across it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now this, you know, like it almost puts
Speaker 2: you into a bad spot to lay up to from
Speaker 2: a lot of the holes where you're playing down slope.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a I do love three, you know, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't want to humble Breck, but as someone who
Speaker 2: when when I you know, you're always outside the ropes
Speaker 2: and I read greens a lot with my feet. M hmm.
Speaker 2: And when I got to go onto the Greens three
Speaker 2: was shocking the amount of slope hurdling away.
Speaker 1: From right to left. How scary that is?
Speaker 2: Oh my, like your feet your the sensation in your feet.
Speaker 2: You're like, this is terrifle.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna put it into the middle of
Speaker 1: four fair way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like, oh my god, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of slope.
Speaker 1: On this creek. Yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I you know. One of my one of
Speaker 2: the things I love, uh and I keep rambling here,
Speaker 2: but I love about the construction of the Greens is
Speaker 2: how the slopes, the tears, they aren't just like uh,
Speaker 2: they have like a back roll to them.
Speaker 1: Yes, so when you have when you.
Speaker 2: Don't hit a great shot. I this is something that
Speaker 2: a personal huge bugaboo of me putting is when I
Speaker 2: have to go up a slope and then there's a
Speaker 2: downslope on the backside. I hate them because like it's
Speaker 2: like you need to give it enough juice to get over.
Speaker 2: But then when it has the downslope on the backside,
Speaker 2: it's so hard. It makes putting so tough. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I think it introduces such a element of like you
Speaker 2: have to be a great lag putter because of this,
Speaker 2: because there's always a backslope on You see these big
Speaker 2: slopes and your eyes drawn to the big slope that's obvious,
Speaker 2: but on the backside of those slopes there's always another slope.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like all these putts are like up
Speaker 2: and overs and that was like, and they hide all
Speaker 2: the small slopes in the greens is the other thing.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's easy to wind up with a
Speaker 1: ten plus foot putt or more second time. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's just some of the hardest lag puts you've ever
Speaker 1: seen out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible, But Rob, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1: I love chatting thinking about Augusta. I can't wait for
Speaker 1: the tournament.
Speaker 2: Are you going any days?
Speaker 1: I don't have any plans. Well, you know, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: get lucky.
Speaker 2: And run into some tickets.
Speaker 1: Run into a ticket or something like that. So I've
Speaker 1: had some fun taking my daughter out there the last
Speaker 1: several years, and I've loved, you know, her getting into
Speaker 1: it a little bit.
Speaker 2: So what's what's the age minimum for daughter out there.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think you could take him. My brother changed
Speaker 1: his daughter's diaper underneath the trees on the left hand
Speaker 1: side of number two in nineteen ninety eight in a
Speaker 1: practice round, so that was fine. We feel like we
Speaker 1: want to take it back. They haven't, you know, denied us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I go. I might wait till six. Six might
Speaker 2: be a better age than four and a half. All right, Rob,
Speaker 2: thanks for coming on. Everybody can follow you. Everybody can
Speaker 2: go see your work out in the wild, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the some of the most public and accessible
Speaker 2: places of the new New designs. And look forward to
Speaker 2: seeing more and more of your work as you've been
Speaker 2: very busy.
Speaker 1: Thanks Andy, it's great to see you man. Hope to
Speaker 1: see you around.
Speaker 2: Hope to see in augusta yeah, hopefully next week see
Speaker 2: a tea bones.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: Big thanks to PJ. Clark for editing and producing this episode.
Speaker 2: Also huge thanks to Rob and Jeff for their time.
Speaker 2: It's always great to chat with both of them. We
Speaker 2: will be back early next week. We will be doing
Speaker 2: a Sunday drop of our Master's preview podcast. It'll be
Speaker 2: our traditional five Things about the Masters, so that will
Speaker 2: be out on Sunday in your feed. I will be
Speaker 2: joined by the Great High Adas. I'm looking forward to that,
Speaker 2: so we'll have high ideas to preview Trevor Immelman to recap.
Speaker 2: It should be a awesome Masters. I hope everybody's getting
Speaker 2: into the mood. We will be back on Sunday, so
Speaker 2: it'll be kind of loaded in for your early week.
Speaker 2: You can just kind of get into that Master's mood.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not going to promise it. Maybe if something happens,
Speaker 2: we'll drop another one in there in the feed next week,
Speaker 2: but it'll probably be a Sunday and then the following
Speaker 2: Wednesday with Trevor schedule. So big thank you to PJ
Speaker 2: for putting this together. Looking forward to next week's Masters,
Speaker 2: and look for your episode on Sunday