WEBVTT - All About Augusta National

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 2>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my.

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<v Speaker 3>Ball in a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg,

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<v Speaker 3>Frida egg egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie, I'm about

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<v Speaker 3>ready to run off of the course.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Today I'm we are going to discuss Augusta National in

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<v Speaker 2>great detail. This was fun. It's been a while since

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<v Speaker 2>I did a podcast with you know, guests just talking

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<v Speaker 2>golf course that neither had any association with. So maybe

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<v Speaker 2>we will do this more in the future because I

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<v Speaker 2>thought it led to some really good discussion. I am

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<v Speaker 2>joined today by Jeff Shackelford of the Quadrilateral. Jeff is

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<v Speaker 2>a golf architect in his own right. He co designed

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<v Speaker 2>Rustic Canyon. He's spent the consultant on a number of projects,

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<v Speaker 2>and he has written number of great books on golf architecture.

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<v Speaker 2>He also has a sub stack. We talk about that

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<v Speaker 2>at the top of his section. And also I am

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<v Speaker 2>joined by Rob Collins of King Collins Dormer Design. Rob

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<v Speaker 2>is a golf architect based out of Chattanooga, who's designed

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<v Speaker 2>golf courses such as Sweeten's Cove and Landman. Jeff and

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<v Speaker 2>I talk kind of about like routing and strategy of

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<v Speaker 2>Augusta Nashal, and Rob and I dive into what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of makes the greens great. So this was super fun.

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<v Speaker 2>As for fans of the Frida Egg, a reminder here

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<v Speaker 2>we have a fresh assortment of merch options for next week.

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<v Speaker 2>Next week's big tournament. So we We've got our Mackenzie Bunker,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think is a cool little logo. It's on

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<v Speaker 2>a number of hats. We have a collaboration with Swag

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<v Speaker 2>on some headcovers. You can go to proshop dot Thefridagg

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<v Speaker 2>dot com to check out that. One last bit of

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<v Speaker 2>before we get to Jeff and Rob, let's take a

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<v Speaker 2>moment to talk about our partner, Club Champion. They've been

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<v Speaker 2>with us for a long time. Thank you to them

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<v Speaker 2>for all their support. We're excited to partner again in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five and with the first major of the

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<v Speaker 2>let's get to Jeff Shackleford here all right. I am

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<v Speaker 2>joined by Jeff Shackleford, owner, CEO, COO, chief marketing officer,

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<v Speaker 2>also intern at the Quadrilateral. A great substack newsletter. Everybody

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<v Speaker 2>should subscribe, especially this is the time of the year.

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<v Speaker 2>This is like your Christmas time, because the major season

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<v Speaker 2>is starting. You have, I believe, golf's only major championship

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<v Speaker 2>focused newsletter. Uh and uh it's it's a great it's

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<v Speaker 2>a great read. It's honestly, I get a lot of newsletters.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't read a lot of them. Yours's appointment reading.

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<v Speaker 2>I usually save it for a moment where my house

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<v Speaker 2>is a little quiet. I sit down and I just

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<v Speaker 2>die in and I enjoy. I enjoy the uh, the

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<v Speaker 2>irreverence of it. I there's always what I find two

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<v Speaker 2>or three laugh out loud moments in in the UH

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<v Speaker 2>in the text, so I enjoy it quite a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Jeff Shackelford, how are you doing, sir? Are you ready

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<v Speaker 2>for for AUGUSTA National?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing great. I am very ready. I'm very excited.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 3>I would love the weather forecast to improve a little bit.

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<v Speaker 3>That's my only real gripe going in. And I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's gonna be a I think it's gonna be a

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<v Speaker 3>really good one. So I've heard good things about the

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<v Speaker 3>condition of the course given Helene and all that stuff. So, uh,

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<v Speaker 3>just tweak the weather and we'll have a great uh

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<v Speaker 3>anwa and then we'll have and I more importantly, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think there's any serious cold right now in the forecast,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm I'm happy about that. It's been a little

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<v Speaker 3>cold last few years. Andy, Well, well it's not very

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<v Speaker 3>springtime when it's forty two degrees there.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been thinking about it. It has not been great

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<v Speaker 2>the weather for like really since I started covering the

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<v Speaker 2>event there. Yeah, it's been pretty bad. You know obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>like all the way back to the Tiger one, we

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<v Speaker 2>had a Sunday morning finish instead of a Sunday afternoon.

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<v Speaker 2>You just think about what that did to ratings. That

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<v Speaker 2>would have set all sorts of of highs for the

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<v Speaker 2>for the Masters, if if Tiger was playing that afternoon

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<v Speaker 2>and winning. But yeah, the weather is is interesting. I

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<v Speaker 2>it's Helene post Alene's gonna it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>new look. I've heard from a few people it's shocking

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<v Speaker 2>how many trees are down.

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<v Speaker 3>That well, that that's definitely number one. And then how

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<v Speaker 3>the wind factors in now And that's what I just

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<v Speaker 3>interviewed Ben crench Off for the newsletter and he just

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<v Speaker 3>played there and he that's what he's he's curious to see.

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<v Speaker 3>He said it's in great shape, maybe the best he's

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<v Speaker 3>ever seen it. You know, they did have a chance

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<v Speaker 3>to do another ryegrass touch up there after the after Helene.

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<v Speaker 3>And but that's what he's looking for, is is uh

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<v Speaker 3>is kind of the impact of of of wind in

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<v Speaker 3>different ways that players aren't used to.

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<v Speaker 2>I heard also, the T shots are a little like

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<v Speaker 2>you know how they have those just branches that mightious hang. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>some of them. Some of those branches are gone, so

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<v Speaker 2>the T shots are a little less intimidating. But we're

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<v Speaker 2>not gonna we're not talking about this. We are talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the routing and the routing of Augusta National.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And I would love to hear you know what you

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<v Speaker 2>admire about the routing of Augusta National.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's not the easiest property. Obviously, they had very

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<v Speaker 3>few limitations that we know of from their writings, Bobby

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<v Speaker 3>Jones and Alistair McKinzie. But it's a as you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's a it's it's a beautiful property, but it's

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<v Speaker 3>not easy in terms of golf course design because it's

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<v Speaker 3>got a high spot and a low spot and a

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<v Speaker 3>actually you have to come back to the high spot,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's not always the most enjoyable ground to create

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<v Speaker 3>holes on, and it's probably why seventeen and eighteen or

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit on the dull side, I guess compared

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<v Speaker 3>to Amen Corner to a lot of people, and I

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<v Speaker 3>understand that. So I think that what they were able

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<v Speaker 3>to do is fascinating, and I'm sure, yeah, I'm working

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<v Speaker 3>on a deep dive on the third hole because it's

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<v Speaker 3>just always been a little bit of a mystery to me.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's a cool topo map out there and you

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<v Speaker 3>can see they picked that green site, so They'm sure

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<v Speaker 3>they had spots on the course where there were holes

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<v Speaker 3>that were important to them, and around Amen Corner was

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<v Speaker 3>obviously one of those. But of course, as most people know,

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<v Speaker 3>that was not the back nine originally, and thankfully it

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<v Speaker 3>is now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think there's one hundred and fifty feet of

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<v Speaker 2>fall from like ten t to Amen Corner, which I think,

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<v Speaker 2>like the vast majority of golf courses that are really

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<v Speaker 2>great are in like the twenty to eighty feet of

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<v Speaker 2>fall rise and fall across the property. And so you

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<v Speaker 2>think about like how big that I mean almost double

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<v Speaker 2>that of like what would be considered a great severe property.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what if you as someone who's written you know,

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<v Speaker 2>multiple entry level books to golf architecture, how would you

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<v Speaker 2>explain why a really hilly property makes routing difficult?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the number one thing is that what I just

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned getting back to the clubhouse means you're going to

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<v Speaker 3>have some some dogs and you're going to have some

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<v Speaker 3>holes that are not pleasing. I like uphill par threes.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, as you know, people come there and they're

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<v Speaker 3>always shocked how uphill the eighteenth is. Even the seventeenth

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<v Speaker 3>I think surprises people. So that's number one. And then

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<v Speaker 3>you know drainage wise and water movement and kind of

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<v Speaker 3>wonky stuff like that that's not very sexy. Ith it

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<v Speaker 3>plays a big part and how you think, and I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>the good news is it all drains down to Raise Creek.

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<v Speaker 3>The bad news is it all trains down to Raise Creek.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know they've done a lot of work underground

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<v Speaker 3>to try to try to capture water and and more,

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<v Speaker 3>I think for spectating and the patrons. You see, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>getting into my lingo speak. I'm k measing into it.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm working on it, but for the patrons experience as

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<v Speaker 3>much as it is for the golf, because, as we know,

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<v Speaker 3>some of the stuff they do for drainage for the

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<v Speaker 3>golf is not great. It's kind of weird. But and

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<v Speaker 3>some of it might be, you know, scalloping out around

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<v Speaker 3>greens in the name of scoring. I don't I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really get briefed on those things, so I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know. But so I mean, those would be the

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<v Speaker 3>main things. And just to give you an idea of

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<v Speaker 3>Rustic Canyon, from the thirteenth green to the entrance is

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred and forty feet of elevation change, but basically

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<v Speaker 3>over twice the distance as say from the tees Tee

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<v Speaker 3>to the twelfth green. So I think that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>that shows you that it happens in a quick amount

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<v Speaker 3>of time, that that elevation change. But they made it

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<v Speaker 3>work beautifully. And I think those uphill holes, yeah, they

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<v Speaker 3>work as well as they can other than all the

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<v Speaker 3>trees they've planted.

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<v Speaker 2>If you were going to like I think you made

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<v Speaker 2>a great point there, So Rust Canyon one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>forty feet of elevation, but it's over a really wide

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<v Speaker 2>swath and it's kind of a steady climb. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're in like that individual you're in a valley a

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<v Speaker 2>bit going up into foothills versus there, it's very abrupt.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think what you were talking about with with

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<v Speaker 2>uphill versus you know, uphill holes being dogs. I think

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<v Speaker 2>like everybody who plays golf, like if you played a

0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:02.040
<v Speaker 2>succession of uphill hole, you'd be like, all right, Like

0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.880
<v Speaker 2>whether you're attuned to architecture or not, you might at

0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.440
<v Speaker 2>some point be like we're going uphill again, you know. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think like that's like with very severe properties,

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<v Speaker 2>that's obviously an extreme challenge, is like how do you

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<v Speaker 2>get back up the hill? Do you think there are

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<v Speaker 2>a couple holes? With this severe abruptly severe land that

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<v Speaker 2>Augusta is on. You know, it's dramatic on one hand,

0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.280
<v Speaker 2>which I think is like everybody that walks out there.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the great things is like you walk out

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<v Speaker 2>there and you're mesmerize it at how dramatic it is.

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<v Speaker 2>But are there a couple holes in particular? In on

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<v Speaker 2>the golf course that make everything work.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Yeah, when you think about a whole like eight

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<v Speaker 3>that that kind of gets you back up, but not entirely.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you have number nine come back down. Not

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<v Speaker 3>the most scenic thrilling part five, but it's got a

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 3>great looking tea shot for the most part, although I

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<v Speaker 3>think it looked better when the bunker was more of

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<v Speaker 3>a kind of a center line looking bunker. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 3>and then you know funky green that that isn't quite

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<v Speaker 3>as crazy, I don't think as it was in Mackenzie's day,

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<v Speaker 3>but you know, Clifford Roberts bulldozed it and and then

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<v Speaker 3>they Byron Nelson and I think it was a Joe

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<v Speaker 3>Finger I think who he worked with that that put

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<v Speaker 3>it back and they did pretty well. But anyway, it's

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<v Speaker 3>so it's kind of a funky ending and and liven

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<v Speaker 3>sings up. And so I'd say that's one. Obviously they

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 3>used four and six as and Mackenzie wrote about this

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.360
<v Speaker 3>and George Thomas wrote about it. The par threes are

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.160
<v Speaker 3>handyways to get from one place to another and and

0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 3>clearly they loved that land up there on the fifth hole.

0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.080
<v Speaker 3>I think, yeah, just with the fall off on the left.

0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 3>They were pretty clear from the beginning that was going

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 3>to be sort of a road hole, a flipped road

0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.400
<v Speaker 3>hole strategy of you know, hug the side and you

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.839
<v Speaker 3>get the better angle of the green, and the more

0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.959
<v Speaker 3>you bail out, the worse the angle. And unfortunately when

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.719
<v Speaker 3>they redid it last time, they gave you, well, very

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.160
<v Speaker 3>few people the ability to clear the bunkers and and

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 3>then there's no reward on the other side of them.

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 3>So I don't really know how they missed that one

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 3>because it. Jones was pretty pretty explicit in what they

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.160
<v Speaker 3>consider his Bible. Golf is my game. He's you know,

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.240
<v Speaker 3>he's just was such an incredible writer, as was Mackenzie

0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.880
<v Speaker 3>bub Jones really got a lot in in a paragraph

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 3>and he summed that hole up. So anyway, so yeah,

0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:43.400
<v Speaker 3>I think that was a that was a part of

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 3>the property that was a little separated, but they always

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 3>they always wanted to use that and and I think

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.640
<v Speaker 3>the original hole was pretty cool and the green's pretty great.

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. What when you say par threes are easy to

0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.880
<v Speaker 2>get you from one in place like great great ways

0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:03.880
<v Speaker 2>to get you from one place to another, what does

0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 2>that mean? Well, usually do you when you, especially when

0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.160
<v Speaker 2>you look at four and six for example.

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 3>Well especially six, because it's so steep downhill and and

0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 3>you can't you couldn't have kept going straight because then

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 3>you run into the third hole. So it was just

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.400
<v Speaker 3>an awkward piece of the property or not awkward, but

0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 3>it just a severe part of it that got allowed

0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:25.960
<v Speaker 3>them to get it back down there. And then the

0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 3>beautiful land on number seven. You can't see it. It's

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.640
<v Speaker 3>covered in trees, but uh and that but it's it

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 3>was a beautiful it is a beautiful lay of the

0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 3>land hole and the original green was a little bit

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.760
<v Speaker 3>down the hill, not much but uh so, yeah, that

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.960
<v Speaker 3>was one and then four. Same thing to kind of

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 3>get you to number five was, you know, I was

0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 3>a pretty jungly area in the nursery, although they're really

0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 3>I saw an areel the other day. I was shocked

0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.760
<v Speaker 3>town how many trees they planted in the original nursery

0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.920
<v Speaker 3>was was more open than I I had never seen

0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 3>this area pre golf course, and it surprised me. But anyway,

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 3>that area had kind of has a little a little

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 3>creak and gully that that's mostly been piped under now

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 3>on four and uh left of five, there's actually hazard

0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 3>left to five for part of the hole. Nobody really

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 3>ever counts it in play because it kind of ends

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.960
<v Speaker 3>about two hundred yards off the tee. So that area

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 3>was I think pretty rough, and those two part threes

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:34.240
<v Speaker 3>allowed them to to to deal with that that portion.

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I I you know, I never think about those

0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.840
<v Speaker 2>necessarily as like keys to the routing, but it is

0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>like getting to that high ridge on the on on five, which,

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.240
<v Speaker 2>like you know, otherwise it would be we just played

0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 2>down five almost gives it diversity of having another ridge

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.760
<v Speaker 2>hole with that that left side and it and it

0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>creates like we're just not playing down and up right,

0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>there's another up part of it famously.

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.200
<v Speaker 3>Well just quickly that is another great part of the routing,

0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.320
<v Speaker 3>is that is it You never you don't feel like

0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 3>you're playing down hill and uphill. They zigzag, it moves

0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.720
<v Speaker 3>around and yeah, so but that hole, you're correct, that

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 3>was probably a great element to that hole that added

0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.200
<v Speaker 3>to its its attractiveness to.

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Them when you so obviously I think most people know

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 2>this and most people that listen to this podcast know this,

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:39.120
<v Speaker 2>but originally the golf course, the nines were flipped. So

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>what we now know is the front nine was the

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.800
<v Speaker 2>back nine. What we now know is the back nine

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>was the front nine. Have you ever put a lot

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 2>of thought into which cadence you prefer, because obviously routing,

0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:55.639
<v Speaker 2>one of the big aspects of routing is how a

0:17:55.680 --> 0:18:00.879
<v Speaker 2>golfer goes around to property. There were shape and frost

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.439
<v Speaker 2>concerns with the original front nine. If you were to

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 2>take out, you know, any shade and frost concerns, which

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 2>which manner in which going through the golf course would

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:13.480
<v Speaker 2>you prefer?

0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh, oh, the current for sure. I mean there's there's

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.479
<v Speaker 3>you know, I view of routing as sort of an

0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 3>equivalent of a story, and it story has acts and

0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.600
<v Speaker 3>arcs and ups and downs, and I think that's where

0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 3>they've made some changes, not really regarding that enough, and

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.720
<v Speaker 3>and it became sort of established law in a way,

0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 3>the way the course flowed basically in the seventies, eighties

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:48.359
<v Speaker 3>and nineties, where you you, yeah, you had a really

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.920
<v Speaker 3>tough opener. It's always been a hardhole. It's kind of

0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 3>an awkward t shop, but then two, three you had

0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.639
<v Speaker 3>a chance. Four and five were always pretty tough, but

0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.240
<v Speaker 3>then six through nine was sort of a real little

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 3>a great little stretch where somebody's hot, they're making birdies

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.120
<v Speaker 3>and if they're not, they're making bogies in it. Those

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:11.440
<v Speaker 3>kind of interesting in between holes. And I think they've

0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 3>just gone in a direction where now it's basically hold on,

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.639
<v Speaker 3>uh you still have two and three and and but

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.119
<v Speaker 3>then really until you get to eight, that stretch in

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:28.600
<v Speaker 3>between four through uh seven is is you can't have

0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.680
<v Speaker 3>to play pretty conservatively, So it really kind of changes that.

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 3>The Yeah, it's like the A. I also like to

0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 3>think of it like an album, you know, when a

0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 3>producer and I realize I'm dating myself. Nobody listens to

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.400
<v Speaker 3>albums anymore, but the records.

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Records are records, and with the hipsters.

0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Believe me, I got I do too. I love it.

0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.880
<v Speaker 3>And uh, you look at the way they place the songs,

0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.880
<v Speaker 3>and you know, you don't put a bunch of ballads

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.240
<v Speaker 3>at the beginning, or you don't put you know, you

0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.359
<v Speaker 3>try to start out with something and you slip in

0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 3>some of those kind of B sides for almost B

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 3>side songs somewhere, and you you know, you have some

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.719
<v Speaker 3>ups and downs. And so I can't even fathom why

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.120
<v Speaker 3>they had the original version, just because anybody with any

0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:21.199
<v Speaker 3>kind of theatrical, dramatic sensibility would want those holes around

0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Race Creek and the tributary of Race Creek to be

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:30.320
<v Speaker 3>something you're building towards later in the round. And you know,

0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:35.400
<v Speaker 3>they they they had their reasons, and I'm so confused

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.920
<v Speaker 3>at this point as to who drove what on that

0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.439
<v Speaker 3>that it just doesn't it really doesn't matter. But I

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.760
<v Speaker 3>think what does matter is that when you think about

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.680
<v Speaker 3>all the incredible masters of the seventies through the nineties,

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.640
<v Speaker 3>that we've lost something. You know, there was a flow

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 3>to those rounds and a cadence and both from players

0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:04.000
<v Speaker 3>and patrons who kind of knew what was what was happening,

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.679
<v Speaker 3>what was what was potential potentially happening. And it feels

0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.919
<v Speaker 3>like the Hoodie Fazzio area changes have taken some of

0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.439
<v Speaker 3>that out of play and they just haven't quite gotten

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 3>that that's same cadence back.

0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I you know, it's a I think like one

0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.640
<v Speaker 2>of the things that's done really well if you look

0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 2>at it from like a very macro view, is that

0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 2>no golf course has withstood technology as well. And obviously

0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 2>that's with the ability to just build new te's like

0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:44.119
<v Speaker 2>still having like still being a course that had puts

0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:49.160
<v Speaker 2>mid irons in players hands on occasion. They've done that,

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:54.240
<v Speaker 2>but they have in that pursuit they have lost a

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.200
<v Speaker 2>little bit of the essence of the of the flow

0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.520
<v Speaker 2>of the round and some of the world at a

0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.199
<v Speaker 2>micro level, like if you you said at you know,

0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.640
<v Speaker 2>ten thousand feet or forty thousand feet, this is generally

0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>they've done a nice job of keeping the course courses relevance,

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.879
<v Speaker 2>Like it hasn't turned into John Deere, you know, in

0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.359
<v Speaker 2>terms of like driver just driver Wedgefest. But when you

0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 2>when you zoom in on micro and you look at

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:27.320
<v Speaker 2>what's happened to the individual holes, it's like, yeah, we

0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.600
<v Speaker 2>were missing some of the essence of this hole and

0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.240
<v Speaker 2>what it was, you know, as Bobby Jones and Alistair

0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Merckenzie laid it out to be what what dynamic that

0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.640
<v Speaker 2>hole was supposed to present and how it fits within

0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.640
<v Speaker 2>the overarching character of the golf course. And I think

0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:49.239
<v Speaker 2>that's like an interesting aspect of it. Is like you know,

0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 2>if you compare it to Sawgrass, right, Sawgrass added a

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.239
<v Speaker 2>few new T's this year, but it's become Sawgrass has

0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.240
<v Speaker 2>become just like a wedge fest. I mean, like guys

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 2>are hitting it over that bunkerround fifty team on the right,

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and they leave themselves with like a gap wedge into

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.040
<v Speaker 2>this or sand wedge into this what used to be

0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a driver six iron into into this tiny green. You know,

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:13.879
<v Speaker 2>like you look at the way they've been able to

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.679
<v Speaker 2>preserve some of that that you know, they call it

0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.320
<v Speaker 2>shot value. But what they have missed a little bit

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:24.399
<v Speaker 2>is on the on the strategy and execution of the

0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.359
<v Speaker 2>idea of what they want to do, as as you

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 2>reference with like the road hole for an example. And

0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I think that, like when I think about the old routing,

0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.600
<v Speaker 2>I one of the things I think that has happened

0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 2>that people gloss over is like if you if if

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.520
<v Speaker 2>six six is this par three which has like a

0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>very like you either hit the shot or you don't,

0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:53.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, And if you hit the shot, it's a birdie.

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.439
<v Speaker 2>It's a great birdie opportunity. If you don't, it is

0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.119
<v Speaker 2>like going to be very hard to make. Par seven

0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:01.440
<v Speaker 2>used to be obvious. Now it's a four hundred and

0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.040
<v Speaker 2>sixty very narrow par four where you have to hit

0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:07.600
<v Speaker 2>like a perfect drive. I mean, you got like a

0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>five yard area you can land the ball that keep

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.359
<v Speaker 2>it on that fair away to a raise green that

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 2>used to be a driver pitch hole, you know, drive

0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:19.000
<v Speaker 2>and pitch or drive you know in the original version

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.000
<v Speaker 2>when the green was low a driveable hole either right,

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and then you go eight par five and nine a

0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:30.680
<v Speaker 2>very like taxing second shot into nine, like very challenging

0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.200
<v Speaker 2>second shot. I think that finish, I think that four

0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.920
<v Speaker 2>hole finish would have been more is way more exciting

0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:41.240
<v Speaker 2>than the current four hole finish.

0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:42.400
<v Speaker 3>Correct. Correct.

0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 2>But so it's interesting because you're changing the diet, you

0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.919
<v Speaker 2>would completely flip the dynamic of like right now with

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the finish, especially with seventeen eighteen, it's like, okay par

0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:57.320
<v Speaker 2>par and the old routing on seven, particularly seven eight nine,

0:24:57.359 --> 0:24:59.320
<v Speaker 2>you're thinking, I got to put my foot on the

0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 2>gas here and my lead, my two shot lead might

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:04.600
<v Speaker 2>not be safe unless I hit great shots.

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:10.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's correct. It's just that I think the cadence

0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:16.359
<v Speaker 3>of having amen corner where it is, the way things

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 3>when you make the turn, just kind of the build up.

0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:23.439
<v Speaker 3>I think it's okay that you have that where you

0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 3>have it, and then the last two holes. Yeah, I

0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 3>guess where I'd also disagree is they've made eighteen seventeen

0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:35.720
<v Speaker 3>and eighteen such just hould on for dear life holes

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:39.920
<v Speaker 3>And if you watch those those great masters in the seventies,

0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 3>eighties and nineties, they were they were not easy holes,

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 3>but it felt like if somebody made a miske it

0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 3>felt like it was easy to make a mistake. But

0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.600
<v Speaker 3>it was also easy to make birdie if you play

0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:56.880
<v Speaker 3>the right shots on those holes. And now they're very

0:25:56.920 --> 0:26:01.720
<v Speaker 3>defensive holes, extremely defensive and both and so they're really

0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:05.600
<v Speaker 3>quite boring in a way. I'll be curious how that

0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:08.720
<v Speaker 3>eighteenth t shot looks how the trees. That was one

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:11.840
<v Speaker 3>of the ones where I would you know, people always

0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 3>really out of Jordan hit that t shot off the

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:17.720
<v Speaker 3>tree on eight Well, those trees really hang over. It

0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 3>doesn't doesn't take much from that back tea to bring

0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:22.400
<v Speaker 3>those in play. And you know, we've seen how some

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:24.760
<v Speaker 3>really awful tea shots there in recent years because it's

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:27.880
<v Speaker 3>just it's a hard t shot from back there and awkward.

0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.879
<v Speaker 3>It's awkward. So I guess, yeah, I some of the

0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.760
<v Speaker 3>defensiveness is just uh, I mean, ultimately that's what I

0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:38.520
<v Speaker 3>don't you don't like to see there because, as Creunchhaw

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:41.960
<v Speaker 3>has said many times, quoting Jackie Burke it was the

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:44.720
<v Speaker 3>most tempting course in the world, and and there's just

0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:50.320
<v Speaker 3>there's there's not as much temptation out there because of

0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.480
<v Speaker 3>some of the changes they've made, not because of the technology.

0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:57.240
<v Speaker 3>And that's where you'd love to just ask a few

0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:00.640
<v Speaker 3>questions and try to understand now and that's it. They've

0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.119
<v Speaker 3>also done some things like on number two, to to

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 3>kind of tempt you to try to turn that corner

0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:09.520
<v Speaker 3>even more and and but also bring more trouble into

0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:12.240
<v Speaker 3>play with getting the rough right up to the pine

0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:14.840
<v Speaker 3>needles and things like that. So there have been a

0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:18.720
<v Speaker 3>few good ones like that, and the eleventh is better

0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:24.400
<v Speaker 3>but still not still not idyllic, but you feel like eleven.

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:26.439
<v Speaker 3>I guess one of the things too, And when you

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:28.679
<v Speaker 3>think about it is it was always more of a

0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:33.000
<v Speaker 3>second shot course than that than people I think appreciated,

0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:37.280
<v Speaker 3>and less about driving accuracy, and they've made a little

0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:41.120
<v Speaker 3>bit more about hitting it straighter, and I think it's

0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 3>just a way more interesting course if you if it's wider,

0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 3>the ball's running, and it is about the second shots

0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 3>and letting everybody kind of wap it out there and

0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:54.439
<v Speaker 3>get wherever they get. And then and then see what

0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:57.240
<v Speaker 3>happens who who controls their irons the best. I think

0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.520
<v Speaker 3>that's an underrated part of how it used to play.

0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I think Augusta National operates the best as I think

0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.920
<v Speaker 2>it's one of the things that it's got, like it's

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:11.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of pushing and pulling against this idea of like

0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:15.159
<v Speaker 2>being a golf course that's got a lot of shades

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.600
<v Speaker 2>of gray depending on where your ball goes, and there's

0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.840
<v Speaker 2>lighter shades of gray and darker shades of gray, you know,

0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:25.000
<v Speaker 2>meaning like you know you're you might not know, it

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 2>might not be very obvious if you're in a really

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>good or a really bad spot to casual eye. And

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.320
<v Speaker 2>I think the push and pull there is around is

0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:40.680
<v Speaker 2>that should this be? You know, I think like the

0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:46.280
<v Speaker 2>general ethos if you asked a great player, what should

0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>tournament golf do? And I think this is like a

0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 2>something that's like held by great golfers is they think

0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:58.680
<v Speaker 2>that every shot should be penalized more offline it goes,

0:28:59.080 --> 0:29:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and that becomes a very black and white setup where

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:06.840
<v Speaker 2>it's like I hit it straight and I'm good, or

0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.080
<v Speaker 2>I hit it offline and I'm bad. And that's just

0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:14.719
<v Speaker 2>the general ethos of like how and they think if

0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I hit it ten yards offline or thirty yards offline.

0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 2>If I hit a thirty yards offline, I should be

0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:23.040
<v Speaker 2>even worse spot than if I hit it ten yards offline.

0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:27.840
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's where in the last thirty years,

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Augusta Nashals really really struggled to crystallize on what our

0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:38.360
<v Speaker 2>identity is. You know, are we this type of golf course?

0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:41.120
<v Speaker 2>And like the seventh hole is a perfect example of

0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:44.880
<v Speaker 2>this where it's like we have lengthened it way back.

0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.640
<v Speaker 2>We've made an awful walk back to that tee, but

0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:51.920
<v Speaker 2>also we've just narrowed it down to like if I

0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>hit the fairway, it's good. If I do not, I

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:59.880
<v Speaker 2>am in a very bad spot. Versus you know, if

0:29:59.880 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>you you look at like what people love about let's

0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:07.000
<v Speaker 2>say the thirteenth hole, in which they've also you know,

0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>made a little more black and white, is like this

0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>like variety of If I get it up the left,

0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:16.080
<v Speaker 2>it's really a good spot. It's flat, lie best angle

0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:19.040
<v Speaker 2>in and every yard off that creek line that I

0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>go it gets a little bit tougher.

0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:25.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Well, and to your point, I think that if

0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:29.480
<v Speaker 3>the fairways were cut normally and the ball ran, you

0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.400
<v Speaker 3>would have the precision that they want off the tee

0:30:33.040 --> 0:30:36.120
<v Speaker 3>unless it's really muddy, which it's not gonna be muddy

0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.440
<v Speaker 3>ever there, but it could be soft. But if you

0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:40.480
<v Speaker 3>if you had the ball when it hits the ground

0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 3>and because the ground is so severe there, I mean

0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:45.800
<v Speaker 3>seven is a great example. That's actually a hole where

0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.480
<v Speaker 3>the way they cut the fairway toward the tee helps

0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:52.240
<v Speaker 3>you because it's so narrow and it's got a it's

0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 3>got a little tilt to it and a lot a

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:55.440
<v Speaker 3>lot of tilt.

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's the most surprising one hitting a golf

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 2>ball on is like I hit a really good drive

0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>there that had a little bit of fade that.

0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 3>Landed in the middle of the fair at around are

0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:06.680
<v Speaker 3>we going to go?

0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:08.560
<v Speaker 2>No, I ended up in the rough, but I just

0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:11.240
<v Speaker 2>thought about I was like, wow, like you really want

0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:15.320
<v Speaker 2>to hit a draw into that fairway otherwise it is tiny.

0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Tiny, It's it's literally five to eight yards of a

0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:21.520
<v Speaker 3>spot if you hit a little bit of a cut otherwise,

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:25.400
<v Speaker 3>and the fairway counters not helping. But the point is

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:29.280
<v Speaker 3>even so even if you you hit that fairway, you've

0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:32.320
<v Speaker 3>got a little bit of a side hill, sometimes downhill,

0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 3>lie uphill to a tiny green And I guess that's

0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:38.280
<v Speaker 3>where I'd ask him, is don't you have a little

0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:41.680
<v Speaker 3>more faith in your green complexes and the art the

0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:47.400
<v Speaker 3>strategy that the original guys thought up to defend the course? Uh,

0:31:47.640 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 3>it feels like you're not having enough faith in that

0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:53.480
<v Speaker 3>part of the facility, for lack of a better word,

0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:58.000
<v Speaker 3>to defend what you know, to uphold kind of the

0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 3>traditions of the tournament. And you could kind of go

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.920
<v Speaker 3>through every hole and find that stripping away of the

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:07.880
<v Speaker 3>strategy is sort of dumped it down in spots and

0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:12.960
<v Speaker 3>it's made it It almost doesn't really make it harder

0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:16.080
<v Speaker 3>when you make it so easy, and when, as you say,

0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:17.040
<v Speaker 3>take away the gray.

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think like Augusta National in its best form

0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:27.160
<v Speaker 2>plays against the best player in the world's egos. It

0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:30.000
<v Speaker 2>dares them to hit shots that they don't want to

0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:36.960
<v Speaker 2>necessarily hit right, and usually that's from perfect lies quote

0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:40.880
<v Speaker 2>unquote perfect lies in the fair away where like, and

0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 2>I think you see this whenever you watch Old Masters

0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.800
<v Speaker 2>is like, guys, you know we just did a flashback

0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>on Chip Beck on shotgun start. Yeah, And in the

0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:55.120
<v Speaker 2>ninety three Masters he's got two thirty six to the

0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 2>front edge, his ball's on a little bit of a

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:01.280
<v Speaker 2>down slope, and he's standing there three shots behind Bernard

0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Longer and he lays up yep. But it put him

0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:07.960
<v Speaker 2>in this paradoxical position where he probably knew and deep

0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:09.640
<v Speaker 2>down he had to go for it, but he just

0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to do it. Like I love when golf

0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:18.920
<v Speaker 2>at the highest level puts players in a situation where

0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:22.400
<v Speaker 2>they don't want they don't want to do either of

0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the options. And I think like a great example would

0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>be like the six hole at LACC would be like

0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:32.320
<v Speaker 2>the six hole that's short part four at LACC, players

0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:34.520
<v Speaker 2>don't want to go for it because of what's in front,

0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:36.440
<v Speaker 2>but they also don't want to hit like a six

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.840
<v Speaker 2>n iron off the tee on a three hundred yard hole.

0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Like to me, that's that That's kind of like the

0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:45.120
<v Speaker 2>most interesting push and pull that you can give PGA

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:49.600
<v Speaker 2>tour players, the best players in the world, is multiple options,

0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:52.800
<v Speaker 2>none of which are necessarily appetizing to them.

0:33:52.960 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 3>Right Well, I'm working on this deep dive on the

0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.920
<v Speaker 3>third hole, and it's the perfect example of what you described,

0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 3>because Bob Cupp added this trio of bunkers in the

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 3>fairway short of the one fairway bunker that Mackenzie had.

0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:11.160
<v Speaker 3>And I talked to Weiscoff years ago and it just

0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 3>drove him nuts. He said, I used to love to

0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:15.279
<v Speaker 3>lay up there, And then I asked Crenshawn. He goes,

0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:20.000
<v Speaker 3>nahuh not really. I wasn't really, I don't know about

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:22.040
<v Speaker 3>that play. And then I went and found some photos

0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:23.680
<v Speaker 3>and there's a bunch of guys who used to lay

0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:25.520
<v Speaker 3>up right in front of that bunker because they wanted

0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:28.040
<v Speaker 3>a full shot into that green. There are other people

0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:30.040
<v Speaker 3>who love to just get over that, just pass that

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:35.160
<v Speaker 3>bunker and have a shorter shot in, and now we're

0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:37.320
<v Speaker 3>seeing everybody just throw it up at the green. It

0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:39.640
<v Speaker 3>kind of like a video game that like rolls up

0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:43.160
<v Speaker 3>the hill, comes down, and we've seen Scotty if he

0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:45.880
<v Speaker 3>bails out, he bails out left because you'd rather hit

0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:47.520
<v Speaker 3>it in the link to the green. So it's just

0:34:47.600 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 3>kind of lost like putting those bunkers in. And then

0:34:50.480 --> 0:34:53.080
<v Speaker 3>they also moved that fairway in before the tournament for

0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 3>some reason.

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:58.320
<v Speaker 4>You'll be shocked to know they didn't have any I asked,

0:34:58.360 --> 0:35:03.840
<v Speaker 4>and the politely declined, I may be for spectating purposes,

0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 4>it may be a gronomy thing, but anyway, the fairway

0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:09.840
<v Speaker 4>is cut really wide most of the year and you

0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:14.319
<v Speaker 4>just go like, okay, so come tournament time, it's just

0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:16.239
<v Speaker 4>it's becoming a one dimensional hole.

0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:18.239
<v Speaker 3>And it should be sort of like six at LA.

0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:21.480
<v Speaker 3>It should have a bunch of different philosophies on how

0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:25.680
<v Speaker 3>to play it. And that alone right there as we know,

0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.920
<v Speaker 3>and the kind of herd mentality of good good golfers

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 3>and everybody just kind of doing what everybody else is doing.

0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:36.520
<v Speaker 3>That's both fascinating to play, it's fascinating to watch, and

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:40.239
<v Speaker 3>it probably adds, you know, a little bit to the

0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 3>scoring average. It actually takes, you know, when there's certainty,

0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:48.640
<v Speaker 3>there's just no hole that you can design that is

0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.400
<v Speaker 3>immune from from these guys just just slaughtering it. But

0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.880
<v Speaker 3>if you put a little doubt in their mind, it

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 3>makes it. It makes a trickier and more interesting for everybody.

0:35:58.800 --> 0:36:02.759
<v Speaker 2>Those bunkers in the layup area of three are are

0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:06.359
<v Speaker 2>very if you think about if you think about, like

0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:08.960
<v Speaker 2>what you have to do to make a PGA Tour

0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:11.799
<v Speaker 2>player lay up in this day and age, is you

0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:15.879
<v Speaker 2>have to make it so like so obvious that we're

0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:21.359
<v Speaker 2>just giving you something. And I think that removal of

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>say two of those bunkers would maybe prompt some players

0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:30.120
<v Speaker 2>to lay up. Like one of my favorite things about

0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the Masters is you see the old guard still hitting

0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>irons off that tee. It's like the you know, like

0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.560
<v Speaker 2>the forty five and up crew still hit irons on

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:45.240
<v Speaker 2>that tee and and lay up and take that wedge

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.919
<v Speaker 2>because it is like I think, like, what's amazing about

0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>that hole in the grand scheme of things, is it

0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:55.319
<v Speaker 2>offers the only time that you are able to hit

0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.880
<v Speaker 2>a second shot from a flat lie right to a

0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>level target on the third hole. That's the only opportunity

0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:06.560
<v Speaker 2>that you get to hit a wedge from a flat

0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 2>lie to a level target on a second shot at

0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:13.040
<v Speaker 2>Augusta Nashville is a third hole, and that's what it's offering.

0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 2>But the layup has gotten is tough. It is not

0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:17.080
<v Speaker 2>an easy layup.

0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:20.440
<v Speaker 3>Well we'll see too, you know, they that part of

0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.080
<v Speaker 3>the hole, the right side, took a huge hit in

0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:25.799
<v Speaker 3>Helene from the photos I've seen from above, so we'll

0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:28.960
<v Speaker 3>see if that changes the dynamic. But you're correct, and

0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:31.040
<v Speaker 3>by the way, the other reason to lay up short

0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:33.080
<v Speaker 3>of those bunkers is for the pin on the right,

0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.840
<v Speaker 3>the back right. You know, the green used to have

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:39.839
<v Speaker 3>an even more pronounced sort of almost I'm not gonna

0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:44.360
<v Speaker 3>say starfish, but it had little more pronounced wings. And

0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:46.640
<v Speaker 3>there's also a beauty in that that you have different

0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:49.960
<v Speaker 3>layups or different strategies for different hole locations. I mean,

0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:52.880
<v Speaker 3>this is really not complicated stuff, but they seem to

0:37:52.920 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 3>have consultants who don't understand these things, or they feel

0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:00.600
<v Speaker 3>like it's their job to take some of those things

0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:06.000
<v Speaker 3>away because options and freedom lead to to birdies or

0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:09.520
<v Speaker 3>too much good play. It's just it's a classic argument,

0:38:09.560 --> 0:38:12.320
<v Speaker 3>and I mean it's been going on since the twenties

0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:16.880
<v Speaker 3>of penal design versus strategic and unfortunately they had, you know,

0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:20.759
<v Speaker 3>a really strategic course that is still there's still a

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:22.920
<v Speaker 3>lot of strategy because of the speed of the greens,

0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:26.560
<v Speaker 3>all the different angles and different things that still go on.

0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:30.040
<v Speaker 3>The history everything, well most people know the history, like

0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:33.439
<v Speaker 3>Ludwig probably didn't understand, probably didn't know Ben Hogan's quote

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:35.759
<v Speaker 3>about the eleventh al last year. But but there's that

0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:40.400
<v Speaker 3>there's that sort of backstory wisdom that you that also

0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 3>plays into your your thinking there and so the more

0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:47.960
<v Speaker 3>they chip away at that is just kind of frustrating

0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:52.120
<v Speaker 3>and because we know it's it just makes it a

0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:56.960
<v Speaker 3>little less interesting and a little less uh fun to watch.

0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's that's uh an interesting aspect of

0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:04.880
<v Speaker 2>of the you know, if you took the routing and

0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.560
<v Speaker 2>strategy and if you took routing and laid it all

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:12.279
<v Speaker 2>the way into like the tree plantings, right, because that

0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.440
<v Speaker 2>is would you say that'd be part of it, Like

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:17.759
<v Speaker 2>if you're building a golf course tomorrow, part of the

0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:25.080
<v Speaker 2>routing processes tree clearing. Sure, so tree planting is it

0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:29.360
<v Speaker 2>has impacts on the routing and we're having a routing

0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:33.160
<v Speaker 2>discussion and strategy discussion. Really but if you think about it,

0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:37.600
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's it's still one of the most, if

0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>not the most strategic golf course that we see these

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:44.920
<v Speaker 2>guys play every year. Yeah, but it is it is

0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:49.799
<v Speaker 2>so far it has it has lost a lot of

0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the strategic elements that it used to have, which is

0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 2>which is fascinating is you know, I think you could

0:39:56.640 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 2>make a case that it was for up until you know,

0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:07.799
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine, the most strategic every like like by far,

0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:09.839
<v Speaker 2>one of the you know, along with the old course

0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the most strategic golf course in the world.

0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:17.239
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no question, And obviously it was inspired quite a

0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 3>bit by the old course, And yeah, I think you

0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:21.120
<v Speaker 3>know the thing, it turned back to the rowdy. I

0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:26.200
<v Speaker 3>think it'd be interesting to give each hole, I don't know,

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:30.040
<v Speaker 3>a grade or a number on where you in terms

0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:34.080
<v Speaker 3>of their sort of strategy variability, some sort of index

0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:37.920
<v Speaker 3>that kind of places that the holes at least in

0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:40.040
<v Speaker 3>that stretch from the seventies to the nineties, and what

0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:45.399
<v Speaker 3>they meant to the overall round in terms of excitement difficulty.

0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Kind of like the way a writer doing a story

0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.319
<v Speaker 3>would put out a storyboard and you'd have, you know,

0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:53.120
<v Speaker 3>and you look up and you go, way a second,

0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:55.279
<v Speaker 3>I've got all these depressing scenes, one on top of

0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:56.840
<v Speaker 3>the other. Well, I want to mix these up and

0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:01.960
<v Speaker 3>maybe have a comic relief moment here. Yeah, it's like

0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:04.040
<v Speaker 3>a same thing with a symphony. You know, you don't

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:08.200
<v Speaker 3>want you want to have some some changes in mood

0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:12.719
<v Speaker 3>and you build up to a big moment and and

0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:16.160
<v Speaker 3>so you'd love to see them. Think about that a

0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:21.040
<v Speaker 3>little bit more from the player's perspective, because I think

0:41:21.120 --> 0:41:25.239
<v Speaker 3>that really plays so much into somebody feeling like they

0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:27.360
<v Speaker 3>can get on a roll out there, and then also

0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:29.880
<v Speaker 3>when they're hot, knowing when okay, this is not the

0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:31.800
<v Speaker 3>hole for me to get greedy on. I am playing

0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:36.040
<v Speaker 3>great today. I'll miss the eleventh green to the right

0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 3>because I got thirteen to fifteen coming up. That kind

0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:42.360
<v Speaker 3>of stuff. And if we could just just get a

0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:45.120
<v Speaker 3>little more of that thinking back into the way that plays,

0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.960
<v Speaker 3>I think it'd be it'd be a lot more exciting.

0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:53.879
<v Speaker 2>What would you say is the whole today that most

0:41:54.320 --> 0:42:00.279
<v Speaker 2>non part three that most embraces the whole that you know,

0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:02.560
<v Speaker 2>the holes in their forms in the like the seventies,

0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.360
<v Speaker 2>eighties and nineties, really the you know the years that

0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:07.960
<v Speaker 2>made the masters the masters.

0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:12.319
<v Speaker 3>Uh well, I was going to say number two, but

0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:15.960
<v Speaker 3>it's now it's now the easiest toll on the.

0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Course statistically, bunker on the right.

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. No, I'm not a fan of that, but I

0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:23.680
<v Speaker 3>do love that it. You know, there is a there

0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:25.759
<v Speaker 3>is a drive to kind of want to get it

0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:28.239
<v Speaker 3>down the middle or down the left side and get

0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:31.000
<v Speaker 3>the roll and have the shorter shot in. And I

0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:34.120
<v Speaker 3>love that green. It's probably the one green that Robert

0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:37.480
<v Speaker 3>Trent Jones in his life made better with the way

0:42:37.520 --> 0:42:39.920
<v Speaker 3>it's bunkered and everything, and the layups kind of fun.

0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:43.520
<v Speaker 3>I think it's really interesting when guys have to lay up. Actually,

0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 3>it's more fun to watch those shots. Although the shot

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.359
<v Speaker 3>into the green is pretty great too, but it is

0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 3>playing a lot easier. And as you say, that bunker

0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.399
<v Speaker 3>on the right again, Samet, you know that bunker.

0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 2>Is the same thing we're we've talked about. It's the

0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:57.600
<v Speaker 2>same discussion.

0:42:57.280 --> 0:42:59.440
<v Speaker 3>If you if you have the fairways cut tight and

0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:03.839
<v Speaker 3>rolling and you didn't have that bunker the right side

0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:07.040
<v Speaker 3>would scare the daylights out of guys because the ball

0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:09.360
<v Speaker 3>could just start running down into you know, the junk

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.200
<v Speaker 3>over there on the right. And that's not pretty over there.

0:43:12.200 --> 0:43:14.480
<v Speaker 3>Now again they've lost some trees over there, but yeah

0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't. And of course it's gotten so deep too,

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:18.960
<v Speaker 3>and it's just on the outside of a dog leg,

0:43:19.000 --> 0:43:21.759
<v Speaker 3>which isn't really McKenzie's style and all that. But I

0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:24.439
<v Speaker 3>don't think we're going to get that one taken out.

0:43:24.680 --> 0:43:31.200
<v Speaker 2>I would say, you know, for any patron sitting behind

0:43:31.239 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 2>two greens one of the best places you can see,

0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:37.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it is, and just I love going there. I'll

0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:41.479
<v Speaker 2>go there on Saturday of the Masters, and I will

0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>just sit there for two hours just because it's just

0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:47.240
<v Speaker 2>one of the best places to just watch golf shot

0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:50.440
<v Speaker 2>golf shots well, because there's so much going on on

0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:52.479
<v Speaker 2>that second and third shot, and.

0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:55.319
<v Speaker 3>The pin is so different day to day, so if

0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.200
<v Speaker 3>you go there more than once, you see some different

0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:01.400
<v Speaker 3>stuff with different pins. You know, when it's back left

0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.640
<v Speaker 3>from the from the fairway perspective, smart old guys lay

0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:07.719
<v Speaker 3>up way to the right. They get it down there

0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:09.240
<v Speaker 3>and then they hit into the length of the green

0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:11.880
<v Speaker 3>and stuff like that. You know. I love the quadrant

0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:17.920
<v Speaker 3>of two fair way uh three green, that little that

0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:19.759
<v Speaker 3>little area, just because you can kind of pop back

0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:23.479
<v Speaker 3>and forth, watch them t off four, watch them play

0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:26.160
<v Speaker 3>into three. You can still watch two from a distance,

0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:28.880
<v Speaker 3>and it's that's my I think that's actually my favorite

0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:32.400
<v Speaker 3>spot other than you know, the top the grand stand

0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:35.319
<v Speaker 3>on on Amen Corner at twelve's pretty cool, but you

0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:37.239
<v Speaker 3>still see some good stuff there. But yeah, in terms

0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:38.959
<v Speaker 3>of your question on other holes.

0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm maybe ten would be outside of all the all

0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:47.600
<v Speaker 2>the planting on the right that's made it so so

0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:50.440
<v Speaker 2>tough on the right, there's no recovery really if you

0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 2>miss it right, But the t shot and second shot

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.080
<v Speaker 2>feels very what it was.

0:44:57.520 --> 0:44:59.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I give you that one. That's I think

0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:00.920
<v Speaker 3>that is a good one. That green is just so

0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:03.960
<v Speaker 3>I asked Crenshaw that last year. Why is that green

0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:08.719
<v Speaker 3>so difficult to putt? It just is the shadows. I

0:45:08.719 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 3>thought that was really interesting what Rory said about sixteen

0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:14.920
<v Speaker 3>and the and the and the tree loss there fewer shadows.

0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:18.560
<v Speaker 3>I think that that gets underrated on sunny days. How

0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:22.880
<v Speaker 3>much shadows make reading greens. They're tricky. So again another

0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:23.560
<v Speaker 3>little theory.

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:29.319
<v Speaker 2>That's your theory. Overcast? Uh yeah, with no best scoring conditions.

0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:31.799
<v Speaker 3>I'll keep begging. It's one of these days. Shot links

0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:34.760
<v Speaker 3>gonna they're gonna enter that weather data. I know Lemania

0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:35.520
<v Speaker 3>would agree with me.

0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:36.360
<v Speaker 1>I would.

0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:39.279
<v Speaker 3>I just am dying to see what that what that

0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:42.759
<v Speaker 3>data would look like if ken Venturre's it was ken

0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:46.560
<v Speaker 3>Venturre's philosophy. You know that a that have soft, overcast

0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:50.480
<v Speaker 3>days without shadows are just better for scoring for golfers.

0:45:50.520 --> 0:45:54.319
<v Speaker 3>You just see the architectural features better. Uh, you have

0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:57.680
<v Speaker 3>fewer distractions on putting when you're trying to read a pott.

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.279
<v Speaker 3>It's probably not as wain not necessarily, but there's a

0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:05.359
<v Speaker 3>good chance. So anyway, it's but they don't they don't

0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:08.200
<v Speaker 3>enter the weather on that on the I think they

0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:09.680
<v Speaker 3>just do it for the day or something, but it

0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:13.479
<v Speaker 3>doesn't allow you to quantify what might be happening under

0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:17.280
<v Speaker 3>sunny versus overcast, or windy versus still, et cetera.

0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.400
<v Speaker 2>All right, well you mentioned the crunch shaw q and

0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:25.080
<v Speaker 2>a what else does the quadrilateral have coming ahead of

0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the masters?

0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:28.680
<v Speaker 3>This deep dive on the third hole? I just you know,

0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:30.920
<v Speaker 3>I'd always have been I've always thought it was kind

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:34.359
<v Speaker 3>of a mystery why And it's me Mackenzie. I still

0:46:34.360 --> 0:46:36.920
<v Speaker 3>haven't found where he is quoted supposedly as saying it

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:39.960
<v Speaker 3>was nearly a perfect hole. I'm the more I read,

0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:42.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm more I'm convinced. He said that to keep Cliff

0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:46.040
<v Speaker 3>for Roberts from screwing with it, and and Rod Whitten

0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:48.319
<v Speaker 3>had a thing years later that Cliff wanted to put

0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:50.279
<v Speaker 3>a lake. I'm looking at it right here down to

0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:52.799
<v Speaker 3>the left on three. Anyway, he was not good when

0:46:52.800 --> 0:46:54.920
<v Speaker 3>it came to architecture. So but I've always found it

0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:57.120
<v Speaker 3>kind of a weird hole. So I talked to some players,

0:46:57.160 --> 0:47:00.560
<v Speaker 3>and of course it has changed. The mentality from the

0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:04.919
<v Speaker 3>tee it's it's bombed up there and that could change again.

0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:06.760
<v Speaker 3>By the way, that just seems to be what guys

0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:08.920
<v Speaker 3>have decided to do. So I'm looking at that, and uh,

0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:12.080
<v Speaker 3>I've got I've had a few things the last few

0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:17.319
<v Speaker 3>days and uh, a little landwalk coverage and you know,

0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:19.520
<v Speaker 3>we'll see who gets in in Houston and all that

0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:22.719
<v Speaker 3>good stuff. But I'm excited to finish off this thing

0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:25.040
<v Speaker 3>on the third because I was shocked to find that's

0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:29.040
<v Speaker 3>most definitely changed a lot. I knew it had changed some,

0:47:29.239 --> 0:47:32.040
<v Speaker 3>but I didn't realize going deep into some of the

0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:35.680
<v Speaker 3>stuff how much that hole has changed when it's touted

0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:37.880
<v Speaker 3>as the least changed hole on the course.

0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:42.520
<v Speaker 2>All right, well, thank you for for giving us some

0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:46.520
<v Speaker 2>time talking the routing, and we will we'll see you

0:47:46.520 --> 0:47:50.160
<v Speaker 2>in a week. Yeah, looking forward to see to seeing you. Yeah,

0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:52.880
<v Speaker 2>having some breakfasts in the media center, a little.

0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:57.799
<v Speaker 3>Breakfast, a few ice cream sandwiches hopefully, and yeah, it

0:47:57.800 --> 0:47:58.640
<v Speaker 3>should be a good week.

0:47:58.719 --> 0:48:00.920
<v Speaker 2>So let's hope we's going to be there.

0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:05.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I hope. So no no blueberry or you know,

0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:10.839
<v Speaker 3>let's hope. Let's hope they made plenty and because it is,

0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:13.360
<v Speaker 3>it is a delicacy. And yeah, and let's hope for

0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:15.560
<v Speaker 3>some good weather. I think it'd be fun to it'd

0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:17.320
<v Speaker 3>be nice to see the guys be able to play,

0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:21.920
<v Speaker 3>not in a gale force win or in forty eight

0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:24.879
<v Speaker 3>degree weather. And plus, with this field the size it is,

0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:27.319
<v Speaker 3>we we need good weather to get them around and

0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:31.480
<v Speaker 3>finish our time because they are. They're pushing five forty

0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:36.000
<v Speaker 3>on on the late weekdays if there's any wind at all,

0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:39.200
<v Speaker 3>and with ninety I think it's gonna end up being

0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.200
<v Speaker 3>ninety six players. I mean, I haven't looked at the

0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:42.080
<v Speaker 3>Houston scores, but.

0:48:42.760 --> 0:48:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, the Toasty Toasty's lurking. He's a he's a demon

0:48:46.440 --> 0:48:49.399
<v Speaker 2>on at Memorial Park.

0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:52.200
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, so that would be great to add him

0:48:52.239 --> 0:48:54.040
<v Speaker 3>to the field as well. Wouldn't that be nice.

0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:59.160
<v Speaker 2>To be incredible? Yeah, so truly incredible if he's in there.

0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:01.879
<v Speaker 2>All right, right, Well, we'll talk to you next week.

0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Everybody check out the Quadrilateral subscribe if you don't. If

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:11.640
<v Speaker 2>you don't yet, it's a great golf reading there. Thanks Andy,

0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:21.880
<v Speaker 2>all right, big thanks to Jeff for coming on. And

0:49:21.960 --> 0:49:24.560
<v Speaker 2>before we get to Rob Collins and the greens at

0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Augusta National. Let's talk about our partner Echo. Echo has

0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:32.239
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0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:34.640
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0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:38.239
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0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:41.279
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0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:45.799
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0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:49.960
<v Speaker 2>latest breakthrough in the biome hybrid franchise, the biome H five.

0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.640
<v Speaker 2>Drawing inspiration from the rugged Scottish Scottish Highlands and leveraging

0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:58.400
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0:49:58.440 --> 0:50:02.040
<v Speaker 2>performance golf shoe built for the elements and represents the

0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:05.799
<v Speaker 2>true nature of golf. Designed to thrive in the very

0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:08.880
<v Speaker 2>environment that inspired it, the biome H five is a

0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.560
<v Speaker 2>shoe made to be worn to get better with time.

0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:16.520
<v Speaker 2>It has echoes, all new Echo text, waterproof membrane which

0:50:16.560 --> 0:50:20.000
<v Speaker 2>makes sure your feet stay dry, and obviously it has

0:50:20.160 --> 0:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the signature Echo comfort. These are the most comfortable shoes,

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.759
<v Speaker 2>especially if you're on a long golf trip or I

0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:29.400
<v Speaker 2>have a long day of golf ahead. These were always

0:50:29.440 --> 0:50:34.000
<v Speaker 2>my favorite ones to wear, the Echoes because they were

0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:36.920
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0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:41.480
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0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.440
<v Speaker 2>to US dot Echo dot com slash golf. That's US

0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:58.600
<v Speaker 2>dot Echo, Ecco dot com slash golf. All right, I

0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:02.760
<v Speaker 2>am joined here by golf off architects extraordinary Rob Collins,

0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.239
<v Speaker 2>who I would say has been known to build a

0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:12.640
<v Speaker 2>few wild greens of his own, a few thought provoking, provocative,

0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:18.120
<v Speaker 2>maybe polarizing greens in his day, And we're going to

0:51:18.200 --> 0:51:21.280
<v Speaker 2>talk about some of the some of the craziest greens

0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:25.359
<v Speaker 2>in the world Augusta National. I think when you first

0:51:25.400 --> 0:51:29.520
<v Speaker 2>see these greens, they provoke a lot of thoughts, They

0:51:29.520 --> 0:51:32.359
<v Speaker 2>make you feel things, and I think you know, at

0:51:32.360 --> 0:51:36.160
<v Speaker 2>his core you want golf architecture to make you feel

0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.440
<v Speaker 2>certain ways. And I think that's one of the things

0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:41.839
<v Speaker 2>that that Augustin National. While I think we get a

0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:45.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of muted commentary from players, I think deep down

0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:49.080
<v Speaker 2>it does make them feel a lot of a wide

0:51:49.200 --> 0:51:54.040
<v Speaker 2>range of emotions when they play. So, Rob, if you

0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:55.839
<v Speaker 2>could take us back to the first time you saw

0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Augustin National as greens, what what were your big takeaways?

0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:06.120
<v Speaker 1>I Uh, I was lucky to dad my dad had

0:52:06.120 --> 0:52:08.520
<v Speaker 1>a knack for getting practice round tickets. It was a

0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:12.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of a miracle. He would land these tickets and

0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't. My brother and I never got them, and

0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:16.080
<v Speaker 1>he would get them. And so I got to go

0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:18.600
<v Speaker 1>with my dad quite a bit, and we actually landed

0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:21.719
<v Speaker 1>real tickets for the very first time. I went was

0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:26.279
<v Speaker 1>in ninety six for the second round, and remember it

0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:29.480
<v Speaker 1>so well, and followed this guy named Tiger Woods around

0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:33.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot and was blown away by his talent. But

0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:40.000
<v Speaker 1>speaking about the green specifically, I remember just being in

0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:42.760
<v Speaker 1>awe of number six green. I had never seen anything

0:52:42.880 --> 0:52:46.640
<v Speaker 1>like that, really, I mean, I'd been to the Old

0:52:46.640 --> 0:52:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Course at that point, but that was the closest thing

0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:51.680
<v Speaker 1>I'd ever seen to a contour like that, certainly the

0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:53.320
<v Speaker 1>only thing I'd ever seen in America like that. I

0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:55.400
<v Speaker 1>mean that that hole just blew my mind.

0:52:56.880 --> 0:52:59.520
<v Speaker 2>And then which contour. Let's let's talk a little more

0:52:59.520 --> 0:53:03.680
<v Speaker 2>about six screen. What what specifically about the contour?

0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:07.600
<v Speaker 1>It was the big contour that comes off the if

0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:11.359
<v Speaker 1>you're facing the green the high right side, as it

0:53:11.440 --> 0:53:16.240
<v Speaker 1>transitions down to the left, there's just a really big

0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:19.359
<v Speaker 1>sharp transition, and I remember thinking, Man, if you got

0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.160
<v Speaker 1>on the wrong side of that, you'd be in big trouble.

0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:24.799
<v Speaker 1>And then not only that, if you don't if you're

0:53:24.840 --> 0:53:27.600
<v Speaker 1>putting from down below back up, and we've seen this before.

0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Guys hit it and they just don't quite get there,

0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:31.759
<v Speaker 1>and they get to try that same putt again, which

0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:35.280
<v Speaker 1>must be one of the loneliest and most awful feelings

0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:38.840
<v Speaker 1>in the world when you know you're going to hit

0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:40.200
<v Speaker 1>it a third time. If you don't hit it hard

0:53:40.320 --> 0:53:41.719
<v Speaker 1>enough for a fourth time, I mean, it's just going

0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:42.560
<v Speaker 1>to keep happening.

0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:48.560
<v Speaker 2>So that that green. You know Bob Crosby, who I know,

0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:52.600
<v Speaker 2>you know well, he came on this pod last fall

0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:58.239
<v Speaker 2>and he described this this period of augustin National as

0:53:58.400 --> 0:53:59.919
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie on Ass.

0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:03.279
<v Speaker 1>You know, I love that. That was one of my

0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:05.680
<v Speaker 1>favorite podcasts ever. I'm a big fan of his and

0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:09.279
<v Speaker 1>thoroughly enjoyed everything he said, hung on every word and

0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:13.520
<v Speaker 1>he's right. I mean, Mackenzie was really doing some radical

0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.840
<v Speaker 1>stuff at that time. I mean, look at some of

0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:21.160
<v Speaker 1>the mounds around the Jockey Club. And in anticipation of

0:54:21.200 --> 0:54:23.520
<v Speaker 1>this little discussion here, I went back to an old

0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>book I have by Stan Birdie about that runs through

0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:29.240
<v Speaker 1>the changes. Have you ever seen that book.

0:54:29.560 --> 0:54:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Yes, Yes, really cool book.

0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:33.680
<v Speaker 1>And it's fun to look at those old pictures and

0:54:33.800 --> 0:54:36.640
<v Speaker 1>just think of the sheer boldness of some of the

0:54:36.640 --> 0:54:37.600
<v Speaker 1>stuff he was doing.

0:54:38.640 --> 0:54:42.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, he did so few bunkers around the golf course.

0:54:42.840 --> 0:54:45.680
<v Speaker 2>And I think like one of the things that sticks

0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:49.640
<v Speaker 2>out to me about the golf course every time I

0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:53.960
<v Speaker 2>go around is, you know, it's a it's a really

0:54:54.239 --> 0:54:57.560
<v Speaker 2>heaving sight. And I talked with Jeff shackle Ford to

0:54:57.560 --> 0:55:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the beginning of this podcast about that. But where where

0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:07.960
<v Speaker 2>there needed to be interest, it's so like eccentric the features.

0:55:08.120 --> 0:55:11.040
<v Speaker 2>It's it's mounds. Like if you think about like a

0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:14.680
<v Speaker 2>perfect example of this is between eight and one, right,

0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:18.640
<v Speaker 2>that's really flat right there, there's nothing really going on,

0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 2>and he built this like series of mounds that carries

0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:26.080
<v Speaker 2>the They're almost connected. When you look at him from

0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:29.879
<v Speaker 2>far away, you can see how the features just kind

0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:32.480
<v Speaker 2>of pour into the other, into the into the other

0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:35.440
<v Speaker 2>green there and the greens are obviously very close. But

0:55:35.640 --> 0:55:37.799
<v Speaker 2>like you think about one, it's like right out of

0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:40.279
<v Speaker 2>the gate with one and obviously ten was the first

0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:43.080
<v Speaker 2>hole originally, but right out of the gate with one

0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:46.479
<v Speaker 2>that is just an insane green to start the day.

0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:50.160
<v Speaker 1>It is an unbelievable grain. And one thing I wanted

0:55:50.200 --> 0:55:54.080
<v Speaker 1>to say on this podcast is that one green is

0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.960
<v Speaker 1>one of my favorites on the entire golf course, and

0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.799
<v Speaker 1>I think that it's very much overlooked. Its shadowed by

0:56:00.920 --> 0:56:06.760
<v Speaker 1>five and fourteen because I think they're later in the round.

0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:10.240
<v Speaker 1>But where number one grain occurs in the round? Obviously,

0:56:10.280 --> 0:56:13.399
<v Speaker 1>the first hole, you know, is a spectator. You're you're

0:56:13.400 --> 0:56:16.160
<v Speaker 1>thinking about what's coming next, you know, what are the

0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:17.680
<v Speaker 1>guys doing on the course, and they're kind of just

0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:20.560
<v Speaker 1>getting through one. But that first green is not something

0:56:20.600 --> 0:56:23.359
<v Speaker 1>to be slept on. It is a work of art

0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:24.400
<v Speaker 1>and it's amazing.

0:56:25.000 --> 0:56:27.239
<v Speaker 2>It never will get us too because it's the first hole.

0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:29.560
<v Speaker 1>That's That's what I'm trying to say exactly, is like

0:56:29.600 --> 0:56:32.160
<v Speaker 1>if it was the sixteenth hole or something, people would

0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:34.080
<v Speaker 1>be going crazy and.

0:56:34.120 --> 0:56:37.440
<v Speaker 2>You think from there, how the how the greens work?

0:56:37.640 --> 0:56:41.799
<v Speaker 2>But it's you know, you go from there and immediately

0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:44.919
<v Speaker 2>the second green is so wildly different. And I think

0:56:44.960 --> 0:56:48.480
<v Speaker 2>that's something for me that really stands out is the

0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:52.479
<v Speaker 2>immense variety. They aren't like I think I was thinking about.

0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:54.680
<v Speaker 2>I did an exercise where I thought about my five

0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:58.879
<v Speaker 2>favorite green sets of greens in America, and like one

0:56:58.920 --> 0:57:01.520
<v Speaker 2>of them that's up at new the top is Chicago Golf.

0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:04.880
<v Speaker 2>In Chicago Golf, I think like a lot of it

0:57:04.880 --> 0:57:06.640
<v Speaker 2>has to do with the site, but like most of

0:57:06.680 --> 0:57:09.640
<v Speaker 2>their greens are up right, you know, they're kind of

0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.400
<v Speaker 2>up in the air. Augusta has every type of green

0:57:13.600 --> 0:57:17.520
<v Speaker 2>you could imagine. Some on the ground. One is a

0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:20.520
<v Speaker 2>great example of a green that's up two the next

0:57:20.560 --> 0:57:23.120
<v Speaker 2>green just sits so beautifully on the ground.

0:57:23.960 --> 0:57:26.960
<v Speaker 1>It does. And the other thing that's interesting about Augusta

0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:30.800
<v Speaker 1>is when you go there for the first time, and

0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:35.720
<v Speaker 1>if you watch the course on television, it is easy

0:57:35.800 --> 0:57:39.120
<v Speaker 1>to kind of come away with the impression that all

0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the greens have these big transitions in them, because you know,

0:57:42.920 --> 0:57:45.320
<v Speaker 1>that was my memory the first time out seeing number six,

0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:49.520
<v Speaker 1>seeing number five, number fourteen, number one, like number two,

0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:51.320
<v Speaker 1>for instance, I mean a lot of it's just kind

0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:53.919
<v Speaker 1>of a tilted plane, you know, and if you get

0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:56.320
<v Speaker 1>in the wrong spot, it kills you. Same with number three.

0:57:57.440 --> 0:58:00.320
<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of greens that don't have you know,

0:58:00.600 --> 0:58:04.840
<v Speaker 1>massive internal contour, but tilt in such a way with

0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:07.280
<v Speaker 1>the land that it's it can really hurt you. If

0:58:07.280 --> 0:58:09.200
<v Speaker 1>you get in the wrong spot. You number nine, I

0:58:09.200 --> 0:58:10.760
<v Speaker 1>mean it's got a little it's got a step in

0:58:10.760 --> 0:58:13.120
<v Speaker 1>the middle, but it's not like number six, for instance.

0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I think you make like an awesome point there. I

0:58:17.000 --> 0:58:22.640
<v Speaker 2>think your early times around the golf course, you like

0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:25.880
<v Speaker 2>it's impossible not to fixate on the greens that are

0:58:25.960 --> 0:58:31.640
<v Speaker 2>so bold in their contouring, like the front on fourteen

0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:34.919
<v Speaker 2>and five, Like you just go up to those greens.

0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:38.000
<v Speaker 1>And oh, they're just just like my god. Yeah.

0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:41.600
<v Speaker 2>But if for me, who you know, I'm lucky. I

0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:45.120
<v Speaker 2>get to spend all week there every year, you know,

0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:47.800
<v Speaker 2>and I just walk around and watch golf and stare

0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:50.360
<v Speaker 2>at the greens and stare at the golf course. But

0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:54.120
<v Speaker 2>to me, like you start to appreciate small features more

0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:57.040
<v Speaker 2>and more. Like a green that I've really come to

0:58:57.240 --> 0:59:01.120
<v Speaker 2>like over time is the seventh green, and how how

0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:04.240
<v Speaker 2>it's just like so different than the other greens. And

0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:06.360
<v Speaker 2>this is this is not a Mackenzie green, This is

0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:07.480
<v Speaker 2>a Perry Maxwell green.

0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Maxwell Green, he built some amazing greens in his career.

0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, It's like kind of like sometimes I go down

0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.400
<v Speaker 2>like a thought experiment of like what if every green

0:59:18.600 --> 0:59:21.320
<v Speaker 2>was Maxwell, how different would the golf course be the

0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:26.080
<v Speaker 2>routing would definitely be different, right, like because Maxwell you

0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:29.960
<v Speaker 2>can already see with his changes he loved going up,

0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:32.960
<v Speaker 2>playing up to ridges, and you see like his two

0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:36.760
<v Speaker 2>biggest changes seven Green going from down low to up

0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and then ten going up, and those are I think,

0:59:40.040 --> 0:59:42.760
<v Speaker 2>like Ten's one of the great second shots on the

0:59:42.760 --> 0:59:47.240
<v Speaker 2>golf course where it really gets you. Your mind is

0:59:47.320 --> 0:59:51.560
<v Speaker 2>just going crazy because of the topography, the wind, the elevation,

0:59:51.880 --> 0:59:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and then you're hitting into the screen that's got like

0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:56.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's just a hard green to hit into.

0:59:57.400 --> 1:00:00.360
<v Speaker 2>But seven Green like the way it had as that

1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:03.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of little bisecting spine, and it's got like all

1:00:03.880 --> 1:00:08.240
<v Speaker 2>these little tiny pockets on it, and it's so shallow.

1:00:08.480 --> 1:00:12.520
<v Speaker 2>The orientation of it is completely different than the first

1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.760
<v Speaker 2>six holes that you play. It's small, it requires a

1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:20.640
<v Speaker 2>very precise shot, and then it's got just neat little

1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:24.760
<v Speaker 2>internal contouring that you can particularly pick up on on

1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:29.160
<v Speaker 2>on in early mornings or late at nights out there.

1:00:29.280 --> 1:00:31.320
<v Speaker 1>And it's a fun one to watch approach shots on.

1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in twenty nineteen, I was fortunate to be

1:00:35.200 --> 1:00:37.800
<v Speaker 1>there with my good friend John Allen and we watched

1:00:37.840 --> 1:00:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Tiger birdie that hole and you know he gets kind

1:00:40.400 --> 1:00:42.400
<v Speaker 1>of hit that right place and it came back and

1:00:43.320 --> 1:00:45.480
<v Speaker 1>so you know, I mean, that's what's one thing I

1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:48.080
<v Speaker 1>love so much about Augusta National is that you know

1:00:48.240 --> 1:00:50.840
<v Speaker 1>the drama is played out at the same place every

1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:52.800
<v Speaker 1>year over and over and over, and you kind of

1:00:52.840 --> 1:00:55.000
<v Speaker 1>know generally where the pins are going to be, and like,

1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:56.960
<v Speaker 1>if the guy hits this kind of shot, it's going

1:00:57.040 --> 1:01:01.640
<v Speaker 1>to go there. And so that's A seven totally exemplifies

1:01:01.680 --> 1:01:03.640
<v Speaker 1>that those little pocketed pins.

1:01:04.320 --> 1:01:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I think something that some of your golf courses can

1:01:07.640 --> 1:01:12.000
<v Speaker 2>do is you can set up with greens to make

1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:17.760
<v Speaker 2>things extraordinarily difficult, hard to get to, but also in

1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:24.000
<v Speaker 2>places that have a lot of potential gathering points. And

1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I think that's something with Augusta like where if you

1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:30.240
<v Speaker 2>did set up there and you went around with with

1:01:30.240 --> 1:01:34.640
<v Speaker 2>with whole locations, you could make it where guys where

1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:37.920
<v Speaker 2>we'd see low scores like all over the place because

1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:41.040
<v Speaker 2>of just whole occasions, or you can make it like

1:01:41.080 --> 1:01:43.520
<v Speaker 2>you would you know, they always have a great balance

1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:45.600
<v Speaker 2>of this, or you can make it where it's like

1:01:45.800 --> 1:01:49.640
<v Speaker 2>almost impossible to get close to anything. You know, what

1:01:49.880 --> 1:01:52.320
<v Speaker 2>is it? How do you go about that when you're

1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:56.600
<v Speaker 2>building greens and what what do Augustas do so well

1:01:56.640 --> 1:01:57.680
<v Speaker 2>that they create that.

1:01:58.680 --> 1:02:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you definitely want to do that. I

1:02:01.160 --> 1:02:05.360
<v Speaker 1>mean that that's probably the number one arsenal or number

1:02:05.360 --> 1:02:07.280
<v Speaker 1>thing in your in your in your arsenal or in

1:02:07.320 --> 1:02:10.760
<v Speaker 1>your in your playbook as an architect to try to

1:02:10.800 --> 1:02:14.280
<v Speaker 1>achieve that, you know, tired old maxim of you know,

1:02:14.360 --> 1:02:18.280
<v Speaker 1>playable for everyone, but challenges the best players. And but

1:02:18.320 --> 1:02:21.240
<v Speaker 1>that's what Augusta does so well. I mean that it's

1:02:21.360 --> 1:02:24.040
<v Speaker 1>it's an amazing members course and then comes on and

1:02:24.040 --> 1:02:27.920
<v Speaker 1>hosts the biggest tournament of the year too. And you know,

1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:30.480
<v Speaker 1>they do have pins out there that are easy, but

1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:33.440
<v Speaker 1>there's some that will just absolutely kill you if you

1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:35.120
<v Speaker 1>get in the wrong spot. I mean, I think about

1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:39.880
<v Speaker 1>number number fourteen. If you miss that left hand pin

1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:43.080
<v Speaker 1>a little to the right, you're going to have you

1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:46.040
<v Speaker 1>might be off the green. There's so much slope in

1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:48.840
<v Speaker 1>that part of the land, and so those greens really

1:02:48.960 --> 1:02:53.080
<v Speaker 1>utilize the natural slope of the land which way it's tilting,

1:02:53.280 --> 1:02:55.440
<v Speaker 1>and if you get on the wrong side of that,

1:02:57.040 --> 1:02:59.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just gonna it's gonna it's gonna kill you,

1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:02.920
<v Speaker 1>or maybe it'll give you an opportunity to hit a

1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:05.800
<v Speaker 1>heroic shot too by playing to a certain contour. In

1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:09.040
<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, I was up there by number nine and

1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:11.800
<v Speaker 1>saw Tiger hit the best shot I've ever seen anyone hit,

1:03:12.000 --> 1:03:12.280
<v Speaker 1>you know.

1:03:12.400 --> 1:03:13.040
<v Speaker 2>The lag putt.

1:03:13.840 --> 1:03:15.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was unbelievable.

1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:18.480
<v Speaker 2>That was insane.

1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:21.400
<v Speaker 1>It was unbelievable. It was like he is in real

1:03:21.440 --> 1:03:23.920
<v Speaker 1>big trouble right now, and I mean, of course everyone

1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:26.479
<v Speaker 1>you're pulling for him, and then he hits that shot

1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:28.560
<v Speaker 1>and it's like that was what was so cool about

1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:31.280
<v Speaker 1>it is that it can be done, but it takes

1:03:32.400 --> 1:03:36.040
<v Speaker 1>an extremely high level of precision if you're in the

1:03:36.040 --> 1:03:36.640
<v Speaker 1>wrong spot.

1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:42.320
<v Speaker 2>That is like kind of a recipe of Augusta Nashvial.

1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:45.960
<v Speaker 2>In general, I think where it plays the best is

1:03:46.000 --> 1:03:51.000
<v Speaker 2>that every shot as possible, and that's where it plays

1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:54.280
<v Speaker 2>with the best players in the world's egos a little bit,

1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:58.919
<v Speaker 2>because none of the shots are you know. I think

1:03:59.000 --> 1:04:03.240
<v Speaker 2>like if you think about like your US Open thick rough,

1:04:03.520 --> 1:04:06.040
<v Speaker 2>which I think they've gone a little away from that,

1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:09.120
<v Speaker 2>but we can still use it as the example your

1:04:09.400 --> 1:04:14.800
<v Speaker 2>your father's US Open, where it's ten inch rough and

1:04:14.840 --> 1:04:18.640
<v Speaker 2>you're in it it's just impossible. You can't do anything

1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:27.720
<v Speaker 2>with it. Augustina never has that kind of impossibleness. There's

1:04:27.800 --> 1:04:31.479
<v Speaker 2>always a way you can achieve a shot, and you can,

1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:35.840
<v Speaker 2>if you're willing to take it on, hit a great

1:04:35.840 --> 1:04:40.880
<v Speaker 2>shot that completely flips the tables on your situation. And

1:04:40.920 --> 1:04:46.520
<v Speaker 2>I think that that with the way the Greens in work,

1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that it's all kind of the Greens that set that

1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:51.400
<v Speaker 2>up totally.

1:04:51.480 --> 1:04:54.360
<v Speaker 1>And that's what's so fun about If you ever have

1:04:54.440 --> 1:04:56.800
<v Speaker 1>a chance to go to a practice around to anyone

1:04:56.800 --> 1:04:59.440
<v Speaker 1>who's listening, just go, I mean, got it. It's so

1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:02.520
<v Speaker 1>fun to watch them hit these different putts and experiment

1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:09.040
<v Speaker 1>are around to different locations without the you know, having

1:05:09.080 --> 1:05:11.360
<v Speaker 1>to count the score, and so they're trying all kinds

1:05:11.360 --> 1:05:13.800
<v Speaker 1>of different things, and you know, you see them putting

1:05:13.840 --> 1:05:17.440
<v Speaker 1>with their back to the hole and aiming away like

1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:20.080
<v Speaker 1>the puts on number nine for instance, I mean to

1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:22.760
<v Speaker 1>a lower pin. I mean where you're aiming versus where

1:05:22.800 --> 1:05:25.720
<v Speaker 1>the ball lands up is just two completely different things.

1:05:25.760 --> 1:05:29.640
<v Speaker 1>And it's fun to watch the best in the world

1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:31.240
<v Speaker 1>experiment in that way.

1:05:32.320 --> 1:05:34.720
<v Speaker 2>It is it is I think you know you you

1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:37.720
<v Speaker 2>talked about fourteen, how it's set in the side of

1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:43.080
<v Speaker 2>the hill. I think that's another aspect of Augusta's greens, right.

1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:43.680
<v Speaker 1>You have.

1:05:45.520 --> 1:05:48.960
<v Speaker 2>You have greens that are on ridges, kind of we

1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:50.840
<v Speaker 2>talked about ten and seven.

1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Like number three. Three is a good example.

1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Three is a great example of ridges. You have greens

1:05:56.960 --> 1:06:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that sit on the ground, like two a good example.

1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Other good examples would be like eleven, twelve, thirteen. Then

1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:10.600
<v Speaker 2>you have kind of the holes that play along the

1:06:10.680 --> 1:06:14.640
<v Speaker 2>side of the hill, and those are you know, fourteen's

1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:18.480
<v Speaker 2>obviously one of the most famous greens of that stretch,

1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:20.600
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's gotten a lot of love over

1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:24.280
<v Speaker 2>the years. It's it should I mean, it's got this

1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:27.640
<v Speaker 2>amazing false front and almost three tiers that kind of

1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:31.560
<v Speaker 2>go down like steps. It's beautiful green. The one that

1:06:31.640 --> 1:06:35.600
<v Speaker 2>I find myself staring at all the time is the

1:06:35.680 --> 1:06:40.880
<v Speaker 2>seventeenth and I think like one of the you know,

1:06:41.520 --> 1:06:44.640
<v Speaker 2>they have all these holes that run along the hillside,

1:06:44.720 --> 1:06:49.240
<v Speaker 2>which is like a pretty severe hill. It's not an

1:06:49.240 --> 1:06:52.880
<v Speaker 2>easy I imagine, it's not an easy place to build

1:06:53.160 --> 1:06:57.560
<v Speaker 2>golf along, and in particular at the green.

1:06:58.080 --> 1:07:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Correct building the side of a hill is very challenging.

1:07:00.760 --> 1:07:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Like to me, one of the things that's crazy.

1:07:05.760 --> 1:07:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Is the optical illusion sometimes that these sidehill holes present

1:07:12.960 --> 1:07:15.600
<v Speaker 2>where there's so much slope, but they build up in

1:07:15.800 --> 1:07:19.320
<v Speaker 2>seventeen it's the classic example that that hole on the

1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:23.240
<v Speaker 2>right where they have that high, you know, right whole location,

1:07:24.800 --> 1:07:27.080
<v Speaker 2>it looks like it's like up in the air. But

1:07:27.160 --> 1:07:30.480
<v Speaker 2>if you're coming from the left side, it's like an

1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:34.400
<v Speaker 2>optical illusion. It almost seems it runs away so fast.

1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:40.440
<v Speaker 2>It's insane, Yes, insane optical illusion. But that green to me,

1:07:40.720 --> 1:07:43.400
<v Speaker 2>with all the different variations, you have the back left

1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:46.760
<v Speaker 2>section that's amazing, you have the right over the bunker,

1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and then you obviously have the back right location. That one,

1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:54.680
<v Speaker 2>to me is one that that just I could sit

1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:58.400
<v Speaker 2>there and just stare at it for days. Is there

1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:01.520
<v Speaker 2>another one for you that really stands out?

1:08:02.000 --> 1:08:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Number five is one that I could stare at for days.

1:08:06.360 --> 1:08:10.080
<v Speaker 1>I talked about one earlier. One green on my last

1:08:10.160 --> 1:08:14.240
<v Speaker 1>trip to Augusta, which was last year, that I spent

1:08:14.320 --> 1:08:16.439
<v Speaker 1>some extra time around that. I don't know if I'd

1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:19.040
<v Speaker 1>ever really stared at it from this direction. They were

1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:20.880
<v Speaker 1>actually mowing the green at the end of the day,

1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:23.920
<v Speaker 1>so I was really close to it. Was number sixteen, and

1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:29.519
<v Speaker 1>you know sixteen has the famous Sunday pin, and you

1:08:29.520 --> 1:08:33.280
<v Speaker 1>would think that it would have a really sharp transition

1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:36.840
<v Speaker 1>in the green there from the back to the front,

1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:41.160
<v Speaker 1>but it's more subtle than it seems like because of

1:08:41.200 --> 1:08:43.640
<v Speaker 1>how much the balls gather down there. It's kind of

1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:46.959
<v Speaker 1>a tilted plane, and I think it you know, probably

1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:49.320
<v Speaker 1>you have a little bit of a flat spot on

1:08:49.360 --> 1:08:50.840
<v Speaker 1>the back where the ball can hold up, and then

1:08:50.880 --> 1:08:52.559
<v Speaker 1>it kind of goes to like four or five six

1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:55.120
<v Speaker 1>percent probably, and then it slows down at the bottom

1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:58.760
<v Speaker 1>and it just fits in there. Think that's one thing

1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:01.479
<v Speaker 1>that's so cool about Augusta. It's so elegant. Things just

1:09:01.920 --> 1:09:07.720
<v Speaker 1>flow and fit in. It's extremely bald, but at the

1:09:07.760 --> 1:09:10.640
<v Speaker 1>same time it all ties in. And fourteen might be

1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:12.720
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the best example of that. I mean,

1:09:12.720 --> 1:09:14.720
<v Speaker 1>it just ties in perfectly a grade on the left

1:09:14.760 --> 1:09:17.120
<v Speaker 1>hand side and then just kind of tumbles and it's

1:09:17.120 --> 1:09:20.000
<v Speaker 1>like it's not it's not forced, it's not trying to

1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:23.519
<v Speaker 1>do things, but it does them effortlessly and in a

1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:25.040
<v Speaker 1>very profound way.

1:09:25.800 --> 1:09:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie used to would write about how they should just

1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:36.120
<v Speaker 2>like be effortless flows like a long horizon line, and

1:09:36.160 --> 1:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>that's you know, how he tried to get that into

1:09:39.040 --> 1:09:42.120
<v Speaker 2>I think, like, what if you were gonna critique some

1:09:42.160 --> 1:09:44.800
<v Speaker 2>of the new work is that it has brought a

1:09:44.880 --> 1:09:48.880
<v Speaker 2>sharpness to some of the greens that didn't exist before.

1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking particularly of like the new work on the

1:09:52.240 --> 1:09:54.920
<v Speaker 2>backside of six is very sharp where it used to

1:09:55.000 --> 1:09:58.320
<v Speaker 2>just kind of flow up, and I think like it's

1:09:58.320 --> 1:10:02.280
<v Speaker 2>got to be one of the harder balances if you

1:10:02.520 --> 1:10:05.320
<v Speaker 2>put yourself in the shoes of an architect there of.

1:10:05.920 --> 1:10:08.240
<v Speaker 2>And I think the club probably grapples a little bit

1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:12.200
<v Speaker 2>with this, is like are we a golf tournament venue

1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:15.360
<v Speaker 2>for the best players in the world or still or

1:10:15.800 --> 1:10:19.439
<v Speaker 2>a club for our members, right, because you know, I

1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:22.559
<v Speaker 2>think like some of the work has lost a little

1:10:22.600 --> 1:10:27.600
<v Speaker 2>of that art artistry, but it's in the it feels like,

1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:30.679
<v Speaker 2>in the vein of of being a little more penal.

1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. Yeah. I remember having that conversation with you

1:10:34.240 --> 1:10:38.680
<v Speaker 1>about six last year, and that that is it's a

1:10:38.760 --> 1:10:41.320
<v Speaker 1>valid point. I mean, you know that that might be

1:10:41.360 --> 1:10:44.240
<v Speaker 1>one of those things that overnight sometimes just kind of

1:10:44.320 --> 1:10:47.680
<v Speaker 1>changes and nobody really notices it, but it kind of

1:10:47.680 --> 1:10:51.120
<v Speaker 1>softened a little bit around the edges. The other one

1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:54.880
<v Speaker 1>I remember running into, uh, I think I was talking

1:10:54.880 --> 1:10:57.040
<v Speaker 1>to Jeff Shackelford last year and we were talking about

1:10:57.080 --> 1:11:01.120
<v Speaker 1>how cool the front left pin on thirteen is that

1:11:01.240 --> 1:11:04.639
<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie drew. How if you look at the old drawings,

1:11:05.040 --> 1:11:07.120
<v Speaker 1>I feel like that should be discussed too, that that

1:11:07.240 --> 1:11:10.439
<v Speaker 1>was such a neat location that's not there, but that

1:11:10.479 --> 1:11:12.240
<v Speaker 1>would be cool if you could go back to that.

1:11:13.240 --> 1:11:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I mean what dynamics would would be reintroduced

1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:23.840
<v Speaker 2>if they got you know, originally Augusta National had all

1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:27.639
<v Speaker 2>these tongues and you know they and what I mean

1:11:27.680 --> 1:11:32.000
<v Speaker 2>by that is like the imagine the edges just extending

1:11:32.080 --> 1:11:35.160
<v Speaker 2>a little bit further and they're almost like a mee

1:11:35.160 --> 1:11:39.439
<v Speaker 2>boy shapes to them, and they would What would that

1:11:39.560 --> 1:11:41.960
<v Speaker 2>do to the golf course? If you were to be

1:11:41.960 --> 1:11:45.760
<v Speaker 2>able to reintroduce some of those tongues, I.

1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Think it would introduce another layer of complexity and challenge.

1:11:51.560 --> 1:11:53.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, if you look at the old pictures of

1:11:54.680 --> 1:12:00.559
<v Speaker 1>four and seven and nine, those tongues are probably too tight,

1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:03.280
<v Speaker 1>at least that's the way they appear in the photos.

1:12:03.320 --> 1:12:05.200
<v Speaker 1>They would need to be a little more substantial than

1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:11.040
<v Speaker 1>they looked in the early thirties. But you know, Mackenzie

1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:13.880
<v Speaker 1>had a way of tucking those behind a bunker or

1:12:13.920 --> 1:12:16.120
<v Speaker 1>next to a little mound or something where you could

1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:20.040
<v Speaker 1>utilize a contour to get close and play away from

1:12:20.200 --> 1:12:22.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, play away from a hole, or you had

1:12:22.280 --> 1:12:25.240
<v Speaker 1>to challenge a bunker. I think it would be interesting.

1:12:26.560 --> 1:12:29.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it would be less interesting if you could.

1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Restore one old whole location that doesn't exist anymore, would

1:12:33.760 --> 1:12:35.559
<v Speaker 2>it be that front left one on thirteen?

1:12:36.680 --> 1:12:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I think so. I think thirteen is one of the

1:12:41.040 --> 1:12:44.519
<v Speaker 1>maybe five or ten best holes in the world, and

1:12:45.320 --> 1:12:49.240
<v Speaker 1>it's just an incredible golf hole, and just for the

1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:51.960
<v Speaker 1>sake of, you know, making it go to eleven, maybe

1:12:52.000 --> 1:12:52.840
<v Speaker 1>that would be fun.

1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:59.360
<v Speaker 2>I feel like that green the hole gets talked about,

1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:04.280
<v Speaker 2>but there is so great and how it just promotes

1:13:04.439 --> 1:13:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and I think like where I always tell people to

1:13:08.160 --> 1:13:12.920
<v Speaker 2>walk Augusta backwards, like you start on eighteen green and

1:13:12.960 --> 1:13:15.840
<v Speaker 2>you walk backwards because like you look at the green

1:13:15.880 --> 1:13:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and then the hole makes a lot of sense. And

1:13:18.760 --> 1:13:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I think thirteen thirteen is kind of like the crown

1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:26.720
<v Speaker 2>jewel of how you can orient to green and contour

1:13:26.880 --> 1:13:30.960
<v Speaker 2>green to reinforce how you want the gameplay of a

1:13:31.040 --> 1:13:36.200
<v Speaker 2>hole to play out. Yeah, because that green makes everything

1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:37.559
<v Speaker 2>else work on the hole.

1:13:38.560 --> 1:13:42.960
<v Speaker 1>It does. I mean, you can get to those front

1:13:43.080 --> 1:13:46.160
<v Speaker 1>right or back right pins, but you've got to challenge

1:13:46.200 --> 1:13:48.960
<v Speaker 1>the creek. If you kind of wimp out or hit

1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:51.920
<v Speaker 1>not quite the right shot, you kind of get hung up,

1:13:51.920 --> 1:13:53.519
<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden you're going, oh god,

1:13:53.560 --> 1:13:55.599
<v Speaker 1>I don't want a three put I can't leave them

1:13:55.640 --> 1:13:57.920
<v Speaker 1>about to three putt and par a par five. And

1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:01.360
<v Speaker 1>so it creates this dynamic in your mind. You know,

1:14:01.760 --> 1:14:04.200
<v Speaker 1>it's it's such a fascinating hole.

1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:10.519
<v Speaker 2>It's you know, like off the tee. It's just saying, hey,

1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:13.719
<v Speaker 2>get up the left side, just hit it up there.

1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:18.160
<v Speaker 2>But you stand there and you're like, I, I can't

1:14:18.200 --> 1:14:22.000
<v Speaker 2>mess with that creek, and you bail out right because

1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the green, the way the green shaped that tells you

1:14:24.880 --> 1:14:28.360
<v Speaker 2>to hit it up the left beyond anything right it

1:14:28.560 --> 1:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>the way it kind of angles and opens all the

1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:34.000
<v Speaker 2>if you're of the left, every contour on that green

1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:35.800
<v Speaker 2>helps you funnel it right.

1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Well. Not only not only that, but another thing that's

1:14:39.120 --> 1:14:41.000
<v Speaker 1>so cool about that hole is the left side has

1:14:41.120 --> 1:14:45.120
<v Speaker 1>far left, far less right to left slope, so you

1:14:45.160 --> 1:14:47.120
<v Speaker 1>have a you have a better, more level life if

1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:48.960
<v Speaker 1>you're playing up the right hand side, you've got to

1:14:50.360 --> 1:14:52.599
<v Speaker 1>a ball above your feet with the green going like

1:14:52.640 --> 1:14:54.720
<v Speaker 1>that the other way, and that just adds to the

1:14:54.760 --> 1:14:55.760
<v Speaker 1>complexity of it.

1:14:56.560 --> 1:14:59.680
<v Speaker 2>And I always say, this is the best golfer you know,

1:15:00.439 --> 1:15:05.760
<v Speaker 2>is probably the most conservative golfer you now, right, Like

1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:10.320
<v Speaker 2>they're actually like the biggest whims because the better you get,

1:15:10.400 --> 1:15:14.559
<v Speaker 2>the more averse you get to any sort of risk yep.

1:15:14.760 --> 1:15:17.879
<v Speaker 2>So it's like an amazing t shot because it's like, okay,

1:15:18.360 --> 1:15:20.519
<v Speaker 2>like I'm dumping it out right or I'm like going

1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:22.040
<v Speaker 2>to try and just like hit it up the right

1:15:22.080 --> 1:15:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and if it turns over, it turns over. That's I

1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:27.880
<v Speaker 2>imagine how most of these guys play play the hole.

1:15:27.960 --> 1:15:30.439
<v Speaker 2>But I cannot mess with left. So then if you

1:15:30.600 --> 1:15:33.680
<v Speaker 2>just end up hitting it where you're looking, you end

1:15:33.760 --> 1:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>up with this awful lie. I mean, it's horrendous, it's impossible.

1:15:39.320 --> 1:15:42.120
<v Speaker 1>And it's just scary as hell, and you you're you're

1:15:42.200 --> 1:15:43.920
<v Speaker 1>then your e'er in your mind going I've got a

1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:46.000
<v Speaker 1>birdie this hole. But then you've got this shot that

1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:50.599
<v Speaker 1>feels basically impossible. And I mean that's that back nine

1:15:50.720 --> 1:15:53.400
<v Speaker 1>is just so fascinating because it's just whole after all,

1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:57.479
<v Speaker 1>after hole you get this interesting dynamic where the guys

1:15:57.520 --> 1:15:59.599
<v Speaker 1>got to make that decision.

1:16:00.479 --> 1:16:03.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And it's all because of that orientation of

1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:05.840
<v Speaker 2>the green because from the right, the other thing that's

1:16:05.880 --> 1:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>working against you is the green. The green's all of a sudden,

1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:11.799
<v Speaker 2>super shallow and unforgiving, and you've got a hook lie,

1:16:11.840 --> 1:16:14.640
<v Speaker 2>which makes it even more unforgiving because the ball is

1:16:14.640 --> 1:16:17.080
<v Speaker 2>gonna move left and you're gonna end up left. But

1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:18.880
<v Speaker 2>if you don't, you know, Like, one of the things

1:16:18.880 --> 1:16:22.679
<v Speaker 2>that's super interesting about the shot is like long irons

1:16:22.720 --> 1:16:25.760
<v Speaker 2>do not draw the way you think they like. You

1:16:25.800 --> 1:16:28.240
<v Speaker 2>get those lies and you think like, oh, this is

1:16:28.280 --> 1:16:31.280
<v Speaker 2>gonna hook, but they don't hook because they don't have

1:16:31.320 --> 1:16:34.360
<v Speaker 2>as much spin on them as the short irons. So

1:16:34.439 --> 1:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>you're weighing that and you don't. I feel like these

1:16:36.960 --> 1:16:40.320
<v Speaker 2>guys hit less and less of these, and then it's like, okay,

1:16:40.360 --> 1:16:43.640
<v Speaker 2>can I get it into the pocket? Like I just

1:16:43.720 --> 1:16:46.519
<v Speaker 2>think it's a fascinating aspect And I think one of

1:16:46.520 --> 1:16:51.040
<v Speaker 2>the things that goes a little like if they reintroduce

1:16:51.160 --> 1:16:53.880
<v Speaker 2>that front contour, I'd be interested to see how guys

1:16:53.960 --> 1:16:57.479
<v Speaker 2>laid up. That's like, I think the most interesting thing

1:16:57.520 --> 1:17:00.320
<v Speaker 2>about the front pin would you see guys like, hit

1:17:00.360 --> 1:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>it way back?

1:17:02.960 --> 1:17:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Would you go? I could? I could. You could make

1:17:05.280 --> 1:17:07.720
<v Speaker 1>an argument that you would want to go far to

1:17:07.800 --> 1:17:11.240
<v Speaker 1>the right, wouldn't you way right and right, way right

1:17:11.280 --> 1:17:14.519
<v Speaker 1>and long? And then you're playing back across the green.

1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:16.320
<v Speaker 1>You have green all the way. All you got to

1:17:16.360 --> 1:17:20.240
<v Speaker 1>do is hit it over the creek to be on land.

1:17:20.240 --> 1:17:23.479
<v Speaker 1>It's not you know, disasters probably not there. But you

1:17:23.520 --> 1:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>could use that contour then to feed it down where

1:17:27.040 --> 1:17:30.439
<v Speaker 1>you could you could play safe but have a reward.

1:17:31.320 --> 1:17:35.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, that would be God, that'd be interesting. But

1:17:35.400 --> 1:17:39.280
<v Speaker 1>there again, you know, is it is it easier to

1:17:39.400 --> 1:17:41.840
<v Speaker 1>challenge the creek on the left and then just you're

1:17:41.880 --> 1:17:43.680
<v Speaker 1>just staring right at it and it's just like this

1:17:43.840 --> 1:17:46.479
<v Speaker 1>tiny little pitch to a little flat spot. I mean,

1:17:46.560 --> 1:17:48.479
<v Speaker 1>maybe that's easier. I don't know. But if that's the

1:17:48.520 --> 1:17:52.000
<v Speaker 1>type of thing you'd be thinking about, is.

1:17:52.040 --> 1:17:53.800
<v Speaker 2>What's your least favorite green out there?

1:17:54.600 --> 1:17:59.960
<v Speaker 1>My least favorite green? Sorry, this has taken me a while.

1:18:01.280 --> 1:18:03.160
<v Speaker 2>That's always my favorite question about it.

1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:09.679
<v Speaker 1>It's a hard question. Obviously, I like the eleventh hole,

1:18:10.439 --> 1:18:15.360
<v Speaker 1>but Mackenzie had some really awesome mounds on the front

1:18:15.439 --> 1:18:18.639
<v Speaker 1>right that kind of have been softened over time, and

1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:21.280
<v Speaker 1>I think that would be interesting to have those back.

1:18:21.320 --> 1:18:24.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, and that's no way really a slide of

1:18:24.439 --> 1:18:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that green. I mean, I think it's a good green,

1:18:26.240 --> 1:18:30.519
<v Speaker 1>but maybe it's kind of the Maybe it's the least

1:18:30.600 --> 1:18:33.519
<v Speaker 1>dynamic of the greens. I mean, it's the pond plays

1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:38.120
<v Speaker 1>such a big role in that hole. It's maybe not

1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:39.519
<v Speaker 1>I guess what I'm trying to say is it's maybe

1:18:39.560 --> 1:18:41.760
<v Speaker 1>not so much about the green as it is other

1:18:41.920 --> 1:18:42.840
<v Speaker 1>something else.

1:18:43.280 --> 1:18:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I think about, like greens as this surrounds. Also, it

1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:50.439
<v Speaker 2>feels like that those mounds have been taken out of play.

1:18:50.560 --> 1:18:53.040
<v Speaker 1>They're really not. I mean, if you look at old pictures,

1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:55.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, those things were huge, and that that's where

1:18:55.200 --> 1:18:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Bob's comment about Mackenzie, you know on acid. I mean,

1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:01.080
<v Speaker 1>those were so strong in the mounds on eighth that

1:19:01.160 --> 1:19:04.040
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned, and there was a huge mound on the

1:19:04.120 --> 1:19:06.960
<v Speaker 1>left of seventeen. If you look at all old historic

1:19:07.000 --> 1:19:12.599
<v Speaker 1>photos and you know, I think that you know, Augusta

1:19:12.680 --> 1:19:17.720
<v Speaker 1>National is such a bold and fascinating piece of property.

1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:22.840
<v Speaker 1>He was kind of matching the built environment to that

1:19:23.479 --> 1:19:26.080
<v Speaker 1>boldness and not shying away from it, I think is

1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:29.800
<v Speaker 1>what he was trying to do and he achieved it.

1:19:29.840 --> 1:19:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's got this sense of like, wow, this

1:19:33.960 --> 1:19:39.040
<v Speaker 1>place is just it embraces its boldness. You know what

1:19:39.120 --> 1:19:39.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying.

1:19:40.560 --> 1:19:42.040
<v Speaker 2>I know exactly what you're saying.

1:19:42.120 --> 1:19:45.880
<v Speaker 1>It was like a lot of people would probably shy

1:19:45.960 --> 1:19:48.880
<v Speaker 1>away from the baldness of the property and try to

1:19:48.920 --> 1:19:51.320
<v Speaker 1>build something softer. That's not what happened.

1:19:51.960 --> 1:19:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's like, you know, we've mentioned Bob's

1:19:55.160 --> 1:19:57.760
<v Speaker 2>comment about the asset thing, but like this was such

1:19:57.800 --> 1:20:02.599
<v Speaker 2>a different golf course anything that people had seen. I'm

1:20:02.640 --> 1:20:07.559
<v Speaker 2>reading Kurt Sampson's book right now, and like a lot

1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:11.400
<v Speaker 2>of the players hated the golf course the first the

1:20:11.560 --> 1:20:14.080
<v Speaker 2>early play, they were like, what is this golf course?

1:20:14.360 --> 1:20:17.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, because it was it's out there, It introduced

1:20:17.320 --> 1:20:21.439
<v Speaker 2>like it was certainly like a it was a push

1:20:21.479 --> 1:20:25.240
<v Speaker 2>in a direction. And really I think like one of

1:20:25.280 --> 1:20:29.160
<v Speaker 2>the things that's fascinating about the history is like this

1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.439
<v Speaker 2>was effectively like the last great golf course built before

1:20:32.479 --> 1:20:35.599
<v Speaker 2>the Great Depression. You know, there were some that were

1:20:35.640 --> 1:20:39.440
<v Speaker 2>being built by Perry Maxwell and in Oklahoma and Kansas

1:20:39.439 --> 1:20:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and those, but like this golf course,

1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:47.360
<v Speaker 2>then the art of golf architecture just hit a screeching

1:20:47.400 --> 1:20:49.799
<v Speaker 2>halt because of the Great Depression in World War Two.

1:20:50.240 --> 1:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>But this golf came in vogue and housing developments afterwards,

1:20:54.040 --> 1:20:55.600
<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden, you don't really have

1:20:55.720 --> 1:20:58.000
<v Speaker 1>anything built like that for a very very long time.

1:20:58.520 --> 1:21:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I think those mounds on a Evan, you know, to

1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:06.280
<v Speaker 2>get back to that, what's become like the play and

1:21:06.320 --> 1:21:10.640
<v Speaker 2>this is you know, those mounds really pushed to the

1:21:10.680 --> 1:21:14.759
<v Speaker 2>front of that front right of that green. What's become

1:21:14.840 --> 1:21:17.160
<v Speaker 2>the play And you see this is like the Scottie

1:21:17.320 --> 1:21:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Scheffler playbook. He just dumps it to the right, just

1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:24.800
<v Speaker 2>does not like Scotty's trying to hit the front right

1:21:24.840 --> 1:21:27.519
<v Speaker 2>of that green. That's all he's trying to do. Yeah,

1:21:27.640 --> 1:21:30.880
<v Speaker 2>like it's not going left. You know, we saw Ludwig

1:21:31.000 --> 1:21:33.280
<v Speaker 2>last year missed it left. He's the one thing you

1:21:33.320 --> 1:21:35.800
<v Speaker 2>can't do, yea. And he just dumps it over there

1:21:35.840 --> 1:21:38.479
<v Speaker 2>and he gets up and down. If those if there's

1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a giant mound there, I think you would think, like.

1:21:40.760 --> 1:21:42.519
<v Speaker 1>You'd think twice about it.

1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Because you could if it's firm, you could hit the mound.

1:21:45.400 --> 1:21:46.320
<v Speaker 2>It could bounce into the.

1:21:46.280 --> 1:21:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Water for sure. And Mackenzie talked about I mean if

1:21:49.920 --> 1:21:54.280
<v Speaker 1>you read their comments about the construction. Of course, you know,

1:21:54.320 --> 1:21:56.519
<v Speaker 1>the game's changed so much now. I don't know that

1:21:56.560 --> 1:21:57.920
<v Speaker 1>they would do it, but it was so much. It

1:21:57.960 --> 1:22:01.719
<v Speaker 1>was about running the ball in, you know, having contour influence.

1:22:01.760 --> 1:22:04.120
<v Speaker 1>But I think your points valid, Like if those were

1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:07.080
<v Speaker 1>really firm, I mean, it could kick and redirect and

1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:10.320
<v Speaker 1>in a way that you don't want. And you know,

1:22:10.320 --> 1:22:13.360
<v Speaker 1>another thing that's so fascinating about the course is how

1:22:13.439 --> 1:22:18.200
<v Speaker 1>many greens were based at least in part on something

1:22:18.280 --> 1:22:22.400
<v Speaker 1>from you know, Scotland. You know, you just go through them.

1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:27.400
<v Speaker 1>It's one after another. I mean four the Eden five

1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:31.479
<v Speaker 1>was inspired by seventeen at Saint Andrews. Six was a ridan,

1:22:33.320 --> 1:22:36.720
<v Speaker 1>seven was valley of sin in front of eighteen at

1:22:36.720 --> 1:22:39.519
<v Speaker 1>Saint Andrew's. Eight was a punch bowl. He talks about

1:22:39.680 --> 1:22:45.479
<v Speaker 1>number seventeen at Mierfield. I think then, you know, going

1:22:45.520 --> 1:22:55.759
<v Speaker 1>through the back nine fourteen and seventeen. Seventeen was supposed

1:22:55.800 --> 1:22:59.559
<v Speaker 1>to be the opposite of the fourteenth green at Saint Andrews,

1:23:00.960 --> 1:23:02.680
<v Speaker 1>where you could come in from the far right to

1:23:02.720 --> 1:23:06.160
<v Speaker 1>play up against the slope that you were talking about. Yeah,

1:23:06.360 --> 1:23:09.760
<v Speaker 1>whereas it h Yeah, anyway, it's just it's cool how

1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:14.160
<v Speaker 1>they implemented those concepts on a hilly Georgia site. I

1:23:14.200 --> 1:23:17.840
<v Speaker 1>think that's one of the neatest thing that's ever been accomplished.

1:23:19.200 --> 1:23:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Also, I think, like you know, inspiration gets a bad term,

1:23:24.439 --> 1:23:27.800
<v Speaker 2>like templates have gotten this kind of like I think

1:23:27.800 --> 1:23:31.000
<v Speaker 2>people love like the identifiability of it, like they make

1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:34.800
<v Speaker 2>golf architecture a little approachable. But there are some that

1:23:34.880 --> 1:23:37.840
<v Speaker 2>have like resisted against this, like oh, it's just templess.

1:23:38.680 --> 1:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>But like one of the things I love is like

1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:43.400
<v Speaker 2>people are like look at six and they're like, well,

1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:46.160
<v Speaker 2>it's not really a radan, Like that's but it's like

1:23:46.560 --> 1:23:49.280
<v Speaker 2>that's an adaptation of a radan, And I.

1:23:49.200 --> 1:23:51.880
<v Speaker 1>Think that's kind of I think that's an important point

1:23:52.120 --> 1:23:55.559
<v Speaker 1>is that they were capturing the spirit of those holes

1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:58.360
<v Speaker 1>and some of the questions that they asked and just

1:23:58.840 --> 1:24:01.560
<v Speaker 1>the essence of them. And a lot of it was

1:24:01.600 --> 1:24:04.160
<v Speaker 1>about how the ball reacted when it hit the ground.

1:24:04.840 --> 1:24:07.120
<v Speaker 1>And you know, even though it's a much more aerial

1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:12.479
<v Speaker 1>game today, Augusta National still makes these guys think about

1:24:12.560 --> 1:24:14.599
<v Speaker 1>how the ball is going to move on the.

1:24:14.520 --> 1:24:19.839
<v Speaker 2>Ground exactly, I think, I mean, I mean, that's.

1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:22.800
<v Speaker 1>What it's all about. That's the classical adaptation. I think

1:24:23.240 --> 1:24:25.560
<v Speaker 1>you have to think about those kind of things.

1:24:26.640 --> 1:24:30.040
<v Speaker 2>And I love like, you know, like the normal dan

1:24:30.120 --> 1:24:32.599
<v Speaker 2>Hold does not have the whole location on the right

1:24:32.640 --> 1:24:37.200
<v Speaker 2>side on six for example, but that whole location is

1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:40.040
<v Speaker 2>so fun on Saturdays when they put it up there.

1:24:40.439 --> 1:24:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Man, that's a tough hole, isn't it.

1:24:42.840 --> 1:24:44.599
<v Speaker 2>It's crazy that is.

1:24:45.280 --> 1:24:46.680
<v Speaker 1>You look at it from the tee and you think

1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:49.920
<v Speaker 1>about hitting that. That's a tough one. And then you know,

1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:52.479
<v Speaker 1>standing behind the tee on sixteen, I mean that isn't

1:24:53.000 --> 1:24:55.080
<v Speaker 1>The guys are so good they kind of make it

1:24:55.120 --> 1:25:00.519
<v Speaker 1>look somewhat easy to the bowlpen behind the the bunker.

1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.800
<v Speaker 1>But god, that is a scary looking shot with a

1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:05.880
<v Speaker 1>tournament on the line. To try to imagine that.

1:25:07.040 --> 1:25:08.759
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of scary shots out.

1:25:08.640 --> 1:25:10.000
<v Speaker 1>There, one after another.

1:25:10.360 --> 1:25:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, last question, what green would you have

1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:18.400
<v Speaker 2>in your backyard if you could have one?

1:25:20.120 --> 1:25:21.480
<v Speaker 1>I think I'd go with fourteen.

1:25:22.479 --> 1:25:24.000
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to go wrong with that one.

1:25:24.800 --> 1:25:28.400
<v Speaker 1>What about you seventeen.

1:25:29.800 --> 1:25:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Seventeen? I do love seventeen. I think i'd go fourteen.

1:25:36.640 --> 1:25:43.400
<v Speaker 2>It's become kind of the hipster thing, you know, I think, like, yeah,

1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:46.160
<v Speaker 2>I think I would do that one. Would be a heart.

1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:49.439
<v Speaker 2>One honestly would be probably the most fun one to

1:25:49.520 --> 1:25:53.120
<v Speaker 2>chip around. Yeah, yeah, two would even be cool. I

1:25:53.200 --> 1:25:56.920
<v Speaker 2>think two is underrated, right, yeah, because you can get I.

1:25:56.920 --> 1:26:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Think three is underrated too. I mean basic, it's of

1:26:00.439 --> 1:26:02.960
<v Speaker 1>all the holes, it's one of the least changed. I mean,

1:26:02.960 --> 1:26:05.120
<v Speaker 1>they added a cluster of bunkers in the fairway, but

1:26:05.320 --> 1:26:07.880
<v Speaker 1>as far as the hole goes, it's pretty darn similar

1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:11.599
<v Speaker 1>to the original and similar length too, and it's it's

1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:14.040
<v Speaker 1>a very scary approach shot.

1:26:14.840 --> 1:26:17.320
<v Speaker 2>It's it's funny. Jeff and I talked a lot about three.

1:26:17.600 --> 1:26:21.680
<v Speaker 2>We talked and he was talking about the introduction of

1:26:21.720 --> 1:26:25.960
<v Speaker 2>the extra bunkers on the left, how it's taken a

1:26:25.960 --> 1:26:30.160
<v Speaker 2>little of the essence of that layup away where you

1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>could play left and then you're in shore of the

1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>bunker and then you're hitting up.

1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:40.559
<v Speaker 1>Into the rather than across it.

1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and now this, you know, like it almost puts

1:26:43.880 --> 1:26:46.880
<v Speaker 2>you into a bad spot to lay up to from

1:26:47.080 --> 1:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the holes where you're playing down slope.

1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:51.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great point.

1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a I do love three, you know, I don't.

1:26:57.960 --> 1:26:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to humble Breck, but as someone who

1:27:00.160 --> 1:27:02.719
<v Speaker 2>when when I you know, you're always outside the ropes

1:27:02.960 --> 1:27:06.720
<v Speaker 2>and I read greens a lot with my feet. M hmm.

1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:10.759
<v Speaker 2>And when I got to go onto the Greens three

1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:14.920
<v Speaker 2>was shocking the amount of slope hurdling away.

1:27:14.840 --> 1:27:16.760
<v Speaker 1>From right to left. How scary that is?

1:27:17.080 --> 1:27:20.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh my, like your feet your the sensation in your feet.

1:27:20.600 --> 1:27:22.120
<v Speaker 2>You're like, this is terrifle.

1:27:22.120 --> 1:27:25.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna I'm gonna put it into the middle of

1:27:25.200 --> 1:27:26.320
<v Speaker 1>four fair way.

1:27:26.520 --> 1:27:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just like, oh my god, there's a lot

1:27:29.520 --> 1:27:30.280
<v Speaker 2>of slope.

1:27:29.960 --> 1:27:32.439
<v Speaker 1>On this creek. Yeah yeah, it's.

1:27:32.320 --> 1:27:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, I you know. One of my one of

1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:38.479
<v Speaker 2>the things I love, uh and I keep rambling here,

1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:43.880
<v Speaker 2>but I love about the construction of the Greens is

1:27:43.960 --> 1:27:48.639
<v Speaker 2>how the slopes, the tears, they aren't just like uh,

1:27:49.439 --> 1:27:51.760
<v Speaker 2>they have like a back roll to them.

1:27:52.160 --> 1:27:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so when you have when you.

1:27:53.800 --> 1:27:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Don't hit a great shot. I this is something that

1:27:58.400 --> 1:28:02.920
<v Speaker 2>a personal huge bugaboo of me putting is when I

1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:05.920
<v Speaker 2>have to go up a slope and then there's a

1:28:05.960 --> 1:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>downslope on the backside. I hate them because like it's

1:28:09.360 --> 1:28:12.120
<v Speaker 2>like you need to give it enough juice to get over.

1:28:12.240 --> 1:28:14.720
<v Speaker 2>But then when it has the downslope on the backside,

1:28:15.120 --> 1:28:17.880
<v Speaker 2>it's so hard. It makes putting so tough. Yeah, and

1:28:17.960 --> 1:28:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I think it introduces such a element of like you

1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:23.920
<v Speaker 2>have to be a great lag putter because of this,

1:28:24.439 --> 1:28:28.800
<v Speaker 2>because there's always a backslope on You see these big

1:28:28.840 --> 1:28:33.080
<v Speaker 2>slopes and your eyes drawn to the big slope that's obvious,

1:28:33.240 --> 1:28:37.080
<v Speaker 2>but on the backside of those slopes there's always another slope.

1:28:37.160 --> 1:28:39.439
<v Speaker 2>So it's almost like all these putts are like up

1:28:39.520 --> 1:28:43.000
<v Speaker 2>and overs and that was like, and they hide all

1:28:43.040 --> 1:28:45.720
<v Speaker 2>the small slopes in the greens is the other thing.

1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:50.160
<v Speaker 1>And it's just it's easy to wind up with a

1:28:50.280 --> 1:28:53.840
<v Speaker 1>ten plus foot putt or more second time. I mean,

1:28:53.840 --> 1:28:58.040
<v Speaker 1>that's just some of the hardest lag puts you've ever

1:28:58.080 --> 1:28:59.840
<v Speaker 1>seen out there.

1:29:00.600 --> 1:29:06.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's incredible, But Rob, thank you for coming on.

1:29:06.760 --> 1:29:09.280
<v Speaker 1>I love chatting thinking about Augusta. I can't wait for

1:29:09.320 --> 1:29:09.879
<v Speaker 1>the tournament.

1:29:10.320 --> 1:29:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Are you going any days?

1:29:12.040 --> 1:29:15.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't have any plans. Well, you know, maybe I'll

1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:16.200
<v Speaker 1>get lucky.

1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And run into some tickets.

1:29:18.560 --> 1:29:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Run into a ticket or something like that. So I've

1:29:21.280 --> 1:29:23.599
<v Speaker 1>had some fun taking my daughter out there the last

1:29:24.080 --> 1:29:27.360
<v Speaker 1>several years, and I've loved, you know, her getting into

1:29:27.400 --> 1:29:27.960
<v Speaker 1>it a little bit.

1:29:28.120 --> 1:29:31.880
<v Speaker 2>So what's what's the age minimum for daughter out there.

1:29:32.680 --> 1:29:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think you could take him. My brother changed

1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:39.800
<v Speaker 1>his daughter's diaper underneath the trees on the left hand

1:29:39.840 --> 1:29:42.200
<v Speaker 1>side of number two in nineteen ninety eight in a

1:29:42.280 --> 1:29:47.599
<v Speaker 1>practice round, so that was fine. We feel like we

1:29:47.640 --> 1:29:50.840
<v Speaker 1>want to take it back. They haven't, you know, denied us.

1:29:51.320 --> 1:29:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I go. I might wait till six. Six might

1:29:55.120 --> 1:29:58.960
<v Speaker 2>be a better age than four and a half. All right, Rob,

1:29:59.000 --> 1:30:03.320
<v Speaker 2>thanks for coming on. Everybody can follow you. Everybody can

1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:06.960
<v Speaker 2>go see your work out in the wild, you know,

1:30:07.000 --> 1:30:10.520
<v Speaker 2>one of the some of the most public and accessible

1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:14.120
<v Speaker 2>places of the new New designs. And look forward to

1:30:14.120 --> 1:30:16.519
<v Speaker 2>seeing more and more of your work as you've been

1:30:16.960 --> 1:30:17.559
<v Speaker 2>very busy.

1:30:18.160 --> 1:30:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Andy, it's great to see you man. Hope to

1:30:20.720 --> 1:30:21.280
<v Speaker 1>see you around.

1:30:21.280 --> 1:30:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Hope to see in augusta yeah, hopefully next week see

1:30:25.120 --> 1:30:26.080
<v Speaker 2>a tea bones.

1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:36.920
<v Speaker 3>All right.

1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Big thanks to PJ. Clark for editing and producing this episode.

1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:45.120
<v Speaker 2>Also huge thanks to Rob and Jeff for their time.

1:30:45.400 --> 1:30:48.080
<v Speaker 2>It's always great to chat with both of them. We

1:30:48.120 --> 1:30:51.200
<v Speaker 2>will be back early next week. We will be doing

1:30:51.280 --> 1:30:56.439
<v Speaker 2>a Sunday drop of our Master's preview podcast. It'll be

1:30:56.960 --> 1:31:01.720
<v Speaker 2>our traditional five Things about the Masters, so that will

1:31:01.760 --> 1:31:05.280
<v Speaker 2>be out on Sunday in your feed. I will be

1:31:05.400 --> 1:31:10.040
<v Speaker 2>joined by the Great High Adas. I'm looking forward to that,

1:31:10.160 --> 1:31:15.000
<v Speaker 2>so we'll have high ideas to preview Trevor Immelman to recap.

1:31:15.200 --> 1:31:18.479
<v Speaker 2>It should be a awesome Masters. I hope everybody's getting

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<v Speaker 2>into the mood. We will be back on Sunday, so

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<v Speaker 2>it'll be kind of loaded in for your early week.

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<v Speaker 2>You can just kind of get into that Master's mood.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'm not going to promise it. Maybe if something happens,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll drop another one in there in the feed next week,

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<v Speaker 2>but it'll probably be a Sunday and then the following

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<v Speaker 2>Wednesday with Trevor schedule. So big thank you to PJ

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<v Speaker 2>for putting this together. Looking forward to next week's Masters,

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<v Speaker 2>and look for your episode on Sunday