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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well.

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Speaker 2: Last week we talked a lot about Jeffrey McDonald and

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Speaker 2: that was our first part and now we're diving into

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Speaker 2: part two.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, you know, I've got a little bit of

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Speaker 3: wine with me, so don't judge. I'm doing a little

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Speaker 3: bit of day drinking right here. But I'm ready, and

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Speaker 3: let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: Good to know I'll go fast. So let's do a

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Speaker 2: quick synopsis. So you have a twenty six year old

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Speaker 2: Green Beret surgeon Jeffrey McDonald, who has reported that his

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Speaker 2: wife and his two children have been killed, multiple stab wounds,

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Speaker 2: lots of overkill blood in two different sections of the house,

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Speaker 2: in the master bedroom and in the girls bedroom.

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Speaker 1: He has some.

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Speaker 2: Injuries that turn out to be what I thought, we're serious,

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Speaker 2: but seemed not as life threatening as they could be.

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Speaker 1: The police are suspicious.

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Speaker 2: He's charged with murder, and they begin investigating and putting

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Speaker 2: together their case, and ultimately the military prosecutors said, we

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Speaker 2: don't have enough of a case. Some things have gotten

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Speaker 2: mucked up that you and I could talk about in

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Speaker 2: a little bit. But good lord, it seemed like a

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Speaker 2: lot of information to me. But then you were saying

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Speaker 2: that you weren't particularly impressed with some of it.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Some of the evidence against.

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Speaker 3: Him, well, at least with what we've discussed, you know

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Speaker 3: in the first episode. Circumstantially, behaviorally, I believe that he

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Speaker 3: is a prime suspect. Now, evidence wise, you know, the

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Speaker 3: complexity of this case if he is the killer is

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Speaker 3: it's his house. Him and his family have lived inside

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Speaker 3: this house. So there's going to be reasons for a

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Speaker 3: lot of the types of evidence that are often looked for,

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Speaker 3: like let's say fingerprints. Well, finding his fingerprints in his

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Speaker 3: own house mean nothing, So you end up having to

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Speaker 3: really focus in on the evidence related to the homicides itself.

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Speaker 3: And can it be proven that with the evidence that

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Speaker 3: he is the killer. That's that's the big question. And

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Speaker 3: right now I haven't heard of the evidence in this

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Speaker 3: case that can suggest that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about fibers, which I always look at

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Speaker 2: a little askew because I don't know, it seems a

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Speaker 2: little flimsy. But let me tell you what it is.

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Speaker 2: So McDonald's wearing pajamas. He says that his pajamas have

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Speaker 2: been sliced up. They find several threads of his pajama

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Speaker 2: underneath and around Collette's body and in the five year

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Speaker 2: old girl's bedsheets, and at least two of the same

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Speaker 2: fibers in Kristen's area. Also, So fibers just around his

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Speaker 2: wife's body in bed. None of that is applicable. I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming to hard evidence against him.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, if these are just single fibers or

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Speaker 3: several just strands of fibers, you know, he's already made statements.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was laying on top of Collet's body.

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Speaker 3: He's possibly manipulated her body during the resuscitation efforts, which

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Speaker 3: could create the ability for some fibers to end up

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Speaker 3: underneath her body.

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Speaker 4: And it's his own house.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what kind of fabric this

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Speaker 3: pajamas are, But are these fibers that would you know

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Speaker 3: as a type of fabric that would shed these fibers

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Speaker 3: or are we talking about actually cut pieces of fabric

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Speaker 3: that are found. But if it's just fiber evidence, right now,

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Speaker 3: this is not a case that is going to be

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Speaker 3: solved using fibers and circumstantially, I think it's so easy

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Speaker 3: to be able to come up with innocent explanations to

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Speaker 3: dismiss the fiber evidence outright.

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Speaker 2: Okay, tell me if this is innocent, because now we're

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Speaker 2: in the fibers.

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Speaker 1: I'm more interested in.

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Speaker 2: They find one fiber from his pajamas underneath one of

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Speaker 2: the little girl's fingernails. Now, how would that have gotten

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Speaker 2: there less it was defense? And this is one of

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Speaker 2: the kids. It was Kimberly, the youngest one, who they

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Speaker 2: said had some defensive wounds, So underneath her fingernail.

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Speaker 3: Well, did she give daddy a hug before she went

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Speaker 3: to bed? Okay, how much fiber are we talking about?

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Speaker 3: You know, when I am looking at trace evidence underneath

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Speaker 3: fingernail clipping or chances in nineteen seventy they did what's

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Speaker 3: called a scraping. They use a toothpick and go underneath there.

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Speaker 3: We are talking about microscopic fibers. This is nothing that

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Speaker 3: can be attributed to the act defensive act. When Jeffrey

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Speaker 3: MacDonald and his daughter, you know, they physically interact with

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Speaker 3: each other, you know, so I don't put any weight

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Speaker 3: on that at all.

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Speaker 2: I really like it when you put on the defense

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Speaker 2: attorney hat.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really helpful.

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Speaker 2: I just would have thought, there's no way how else

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Speaker 2: would that have gotten under her fingernail had it not

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Speaker 2: been in some sort of a scrap with her dad

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Speaker 2: defending herself.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I wouldn't say what I'm doing is

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Speaker 3: putting on the defense attorney hat. What I'm doing is

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Speaker 3: I am trying to discern whether or not the evidence

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Speaker 3: is probative to determine who is the killer in this case.

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Speaker 3: And a single fiber underneath a daughter's fingernail, for me,

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Speaker 3: that is so trivial.

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Speaker 4: I dismissed that outright.

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Speaker 2: Okay, here's more fire stuff there is, as I said,

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Speaker 2: the fiber underneath Collette on Collette in bed, under the

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Speaker 2: fingernail of one of the girls. They find no threads

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Speaker 2: anywhere else, including the living room where he says he

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Speaker 2: was attacked. Doesn't the absence of threads also tell you something?

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Speaker 3: Oh we have a saying absence of evidence is not

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Speaker 3: evidence of absence.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So this is where to draw.

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Speaker 3: Any conclusions from fibers, and the location of fibers in

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Speaker 3: this type of situation doesn't indicate anything to me. He's

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Speaker 3: attacked in this living room space, he's, per his statement,

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Speaker 3: sleeping in this living room, presumably in these pajamas. He's

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Speaker 3: put himself in this environment through innocent means, and yet

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Speaker 3: they're not finding fiber evidence to even just establish the

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Speaker 3: fact that he was sleeping in this living room.

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Speaker 4: So this just.

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Speaker 3: Suggests that they are reaching in terms of trying to

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Speaker 3: interpret this fiber evidence. And again I'm putting no weight

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Speaker 3: whatsoever on that finding.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the threads don't matter to you.

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Speaker 2: The fiber really doesn't add anything or detract anything from

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Speaker 2: this case.

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Speaker 3: Well, the fiber evidence doesn't add anything at all. If

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Speaker 3: now there's pieces of fabric that are a result of

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Speaker 3: the single stab wound that he had to his pajamas, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, I would want to know, well, where is

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Speaker 3: that evidence actually being located at. And it's so hard

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Speaker 3: with fiber evidence because as we talked before in a

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Speaker 3: previous episode about secondary tertiary transfers, you know, just him

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Speaker 3: moving around could be picking up fibers from his own

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Speaker 3: clothing that's now on the floor and he transfers it

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Speaker 3: to a different location in the house. But there's nothing

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Speaker 3: here that is causing me to go Okay, now I.

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Speaker 4: Can sink my teeth into that evidence.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that I think is interesting

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Speaker 2: is they are trying to do that thing that the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor in Texas has said, where you're gathering a bunch

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Speaker 2: of pieces of circumstantial evidence that is unbreakable.

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Speaker 1: It's just too much.

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Speaker 2: It's too much, and a jury is going to look

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Speaker 2: at it and say this guy is guilty. One of

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Speaker 2: the little pieces is a reconstruction of the fight. So

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald says four people basically attacked him in his

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Speaker 2: living room stabbed him, that there was a big brawl,

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Speaker 2: and the Army prosecutors had said during their hearing listen,

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Speaker 2: this living room seems pretty well intact, with the exception

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Speaker 2: of a potted plant that had been tipped over, but

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Speaker 2: that a coffee table was flipped on its side, that

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Speaker 2: nothing had been hardly disturbed.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is.

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Speaker 3: Where you know, right now we're talking physical evidence. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but this case is predominantly not a physical evidence case

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Speaker 3: unless it was committed by these intruders. This case, if

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey MacDonald is the suspect, and he was early on,

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Speaker 3: so much about whether or not this case can be

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Speaker 3: made resides in the interview of Jeffrey McDonald. And this

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Speaker 3: is where I have concerns because now you have what

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Speaker 3: I am going to assume from CID investigators who are

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Speaker 3: not well versed in an interview, in an interrogation strategy

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Speaker 3: with this type of case, and so they may not

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Speaker 3: have done a thorough enough job accumulating all the statements

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Speaker 3: of McDonald's to be able to determine what he is

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Speaker 3: saying doesn't match up with the crime scene, does it

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Speaker 3: match up with the physical evidence, does it match up

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Speaker 3: with his injuries. You know, maybe he ends up contradicting

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Speaker 3: himself during the interview process. You know, all of this

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Speaker 3: is so critical to tease out a case as to

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Speaker 3: whether or not they could prove based on his statements,

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Speaker 3: to corroborate and refute all the various statements he makes.

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Speaker 4: Could they actually make a case.

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Speaker 3: That the prosecutors would have been more comfortable with if

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Speaker 3: a proper interview had been done, And it sounds like.

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Speaker 4: Prosecutors weren't happy. It's physical evidence.

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Speaker 3: Prosecutors couldn't make anything circumstantially based on the interviews that

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Speaker 3: they did of McDonald.

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Speaker 4: And that's a big miss.

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Speaker 2: And we're coming back to just not enough experience with

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Speaker 2: these investigators and prosecutors.

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Speaker 4: That is what my guess is at this point in time.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've alluded to that in terms of the

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Speaker 3: physical evidence, but this case is predominantly going to be

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Speaker 3: residing upon, you know, the interview early on McDonald, and

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Speaker 3: my guess is that interview was not thorough or well planned.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: One of the mistakes they made was during this hearing,

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Speaker 2: which was essentially to decide whether or not there was

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Speaker 2: enough evidence to take him to trial, was that you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm showing you a photo of the living room, and

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Speaker 2: in the living room, you see that there's a coffee

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Speaker 2: table that's been turned over on its side. Their argument

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Speaker 2: was that if this was really a hand to hand

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Speaker 2: combat with Jeffrey McDonald versus four hippies, that this room

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Speaker 2: would have been wrecked and this coffee table looks staged

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Speaker 2: on its side. So during the hearing, let me do

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Speaker 2: you this. During the hearing, the Army prosecutor reenacted what

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald claimed the fight was like, and he had

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Speaker 2: the furniture in the courtroom, and when he knocked during

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Speaker 2: this mock fight, when he knocked into the coffee table,

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Speaker 2: the exact same thing happened.

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Speaker 1: It ended up in the same place.

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Speaker 2: So that was a big fail you know, this trying

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Speaker 2: to show that what he was saying wasn't true in

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Speaker 2: this particular instance was a big failure for them and us.

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Speaker 3: Assessing the crime scene and the signs of a struggle

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Speaker 3: that is tenuous at best. You know, all you can

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Speaker 3: really do is see what the signs of struggle are

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Speaker 3: at the crime scene. Here, I'm looking at the photo

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Speaker 3: and I'm saying, okay, there's a coffee table that's been

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Speaker 3: knocked over. Now extrapolating that out to is this consistent

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Speaker 3: with McDonald struggling with these four intruders. Three of them,

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Speaker 3: men who are going to make an assumption are relatively comparable.

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Speaker 3: Each man intruder is relatively comparable to McDonald, and McDonald

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Speaker 3: is just dramatically overpowered under this circumstance. With the intruder theory,

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Speaker 3: it is entirely possible the intruders could completely submit McDonald,

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Speaker 3: no matter how hard he is struggling, and not have

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Speaker 3: a lot of the crime scene itself being disturbed just

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Speaker 3: because you have such a dramatic difference in terms of

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Speaker 3: strength being levied. That's something that I always pay attention to.

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Speaker 3: Can I discern a physical difference between the offender and

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Speaker 3: the victim by taking a look at what was done to.

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Speaker 4: The victim and what's going on in the crime scene environment.

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Speaker 3: So here this is where again it comes back down

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Speaker 3: to did they have McDonald walk them through step by

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Speaker 3: step what this combat was like. If he's saying I

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Speaker 3: was upright, and we were moving around the living room

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Speaker 3: and they kept pulling on me and they're hitting me

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Speaker 3: and I'm hitting them back, and he's really showing that

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Speaker 3: this was an ongoing fight and moved throughout the space,

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Speaker 3: then I would say, okay, well, this living room really

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Speaker 3: doesn't look like you have five people fighting in it

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Speaker 3: like that. But if his statement is they attacked me,

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Speaker 3: they jumped on top of me.

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Speaker 4: I was kind of upright, next thing, I know, I'm down.

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Speaker 4: I've lost consciousness. I don't know what happened.

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Speaker 3: Then they just completely overpowered him, and you don't have

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Speaker 3: the movement through the crime scene to account for, you know,

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Speaker 3: disturbances to the furniture or the other objects.

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Speaker 4: That may be on shelves or hanging on the wall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, this was not the most reliable piece

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Speaker 2: of evidence against him. So, you know, before as they're

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Speaker 2: sort of moving towards hopefully getting him to a trial,

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Speaker 2: which they managed not to. Unfortunately, by the end of

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Speaker 2: this they go through what their theory is.

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Speaker 1: So this is what they think happened.

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Speaker 2: One of the girls had wet her bed and it

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Speaker 2: upset Jeffrey, and you know, this had happened earlier in

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Speaker 2: the day, really irritated him. A friend of Collette and

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Speaker 2: Jeffries had said that the two of them had acrimony

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Speaker 2: for probably about the past month or so. So they're

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Speaker 2: trying to come up with this motive what exactly happened.

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Speaker 2: So the army investigators say that Jeffery McDonald got into

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Speaker 2: a fight with Collette, an argument. She said something to

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Speaker 2: him about the bed wedding that he needs to calm

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Speaker 2: down about it.

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Speaker 1: It turned physical.

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Speaker 2: They think that Collette through something at McDonald, perhaps a hairbrush.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's from a physical injury that

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Speaker 2: he had or what it was, but they just think

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Speaker 2: that she instigated essentially something physical.

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Speaker 4: And we don't know if you know it was.

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Speaker 3: McDonald is saying that this type of verbal and physical

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Speaker 3: encounter occurred between him and Collette earlier in the day

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Speaker 3: during early statements.

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Speaker 1: No perfect marriage, no fights ever.

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Speaker 3: Okay, they're coming up with a theory. There must be

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Speaker 3: some basis, you know that like the bed wedding. Did

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Speaker 3: they see evidence of bed wedding? You know, not to

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Speaker 3: get too graphic, but it is common for victims of

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Speaker 3: homicide to.

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Speaker 1: Lose, yeah, their faculties, you know.

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Speaker 3: They're faculties, you know, so I fully expect possibly all

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Speaker 3: three victims potentially had urine stains under them or on

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Speaker 3: their clothing. So if they're just relying on the observation

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Speaker 3: and let's say you're instain in the bed, then that

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Speaker 3: also underscores these are very inexperienced homicide investigators.

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Speaker 2: Well, get ready to hear the rest of this theory.

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00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 2: This is bananas to me. So McDonald is hit in

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Speaker 2: the head or somewhere by Collette with a hair brush.

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Speaker 2: Then McDonald's gets really mad and hits her with something

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Speaker 2: a lot larger.

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Speaker 1: They don't know what they think that with all of

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Speaker 1: this noise.

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Speaker 2: At three in the morning, Kimberly, who is five year old,

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Speaker 2: gets up and comes to the master bedroom, and this

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Speaker 2: is the one with the blunt force trauma on her skull.

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Speaker 2: She was hit with something accidentally, which could explain why

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Speaker 2: the fluids from her brain were found nearby.

300
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Speaker 1: I don't know even I, as.

301
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 2: A la person, could tell that with the extent of

302
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 2: the injuries on her head alone, crushing skull, that's not

303
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 2: accidentally and that's not enough to spill brain matter in

304
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 2: her parents' bedroom, you know, at least.

305
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 3: With what I'm seeing with the injuries to these two

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00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,240
Speaker 3: little girls, neither one of the girls really appears to

307
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 3: have a head injury in which I would be expecting

308
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 3: to see brain matter. I of course would want to

309
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 3: know how they determined that this piece of tissue was

310
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Speaker 3: in fact brain matter and how they are determining it's

311
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 3: from the girls as just on ABO testing, because even

312
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 3: Collette doesn't appear to have depressed skull fractures with open

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Speaker 3: brain exposed.

314
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like Kimberly is the only

315
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,680
Speaker 2: option here. She had been struck in the head multiple times,

316
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Speaker 2: such horse at her skull had been shattered. Kimberly is

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Speaker 2: on the ground in her mom's bedroom. McDonald is continuing

318
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Speaker 2: to assault Collette until he thinks she's dead. He thinks

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Speaker 2: she's dead, he then kills Kimberly. He carries her back

320
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Speaker 2: into her room, he kills her in the room, then

321
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Speaker 2: he kills Kristin. Collette regains consciousness and tries to save Kristin,

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Speaker 2: the littlest girl who's being killed, And that's why Collette's

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Speaker 2: blood is in the sheets.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I already kind of talked about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the possibility of brain matter adhering to McDonald as he's

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Speaker 3: you know, yeah, going in and checking on his daughters

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Speaker 3: and then coming back into the master bedroom.

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Speaker 2: And I think that part of the issue is again

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Speaker 2: they're speculating of how all this happened because they're reaching

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Speaker 2: for how do we convince a jury or a judge

331
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Speaker 2: that this man could have killed his whole family. And

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Speaker 2: that's really what this comes down to, is that with

333
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 2: the Jeffrey McDonald case. There had been family annihilators certainly before,

334
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,720
Speaker 2: but this was pretty stunning.

335
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Speaker 3: This is where sometimes motive is the hardest thing to prove,

336
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 3: and you don't have to have motive or prove motive

337
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 3: in order to prove homicide or to prove murder. So

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00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 3: motive is something that is comforting to have, but there

339
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 3: are times where, no matter how thorough the investigation, the

340
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Speaker 3: only person that knows why is the killer.

341
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Speaker 4: And in this case, maybe.

342
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 3: There was outside relationships, financial difficulties, he may have been

343
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 3: just dissatisfied living a family life. Who knows why get

344
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 3: up there, But at a certain point that night he

345
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 3: twists off on Collette with a club yeah, and then

346
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Speaker 3: proceeds to kill everybody else in the house.

347
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Speaker 2: The family annihilate idea behind this story and why we're

348
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Speaker 2: talking about.

349
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Speaker 1: One of the things that's so interesting about it.

350
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Speaker 2: Is that that the John List story had not happened yet.

351
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 2: That happened in nineteen seventy one, and this takes place

352
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy This is pre us knowing about Bundy.

353
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Speaker 2: You know, this is pre behavioral science unit. This is

354
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 2: all sort of fresh for people. So it was stunning

355
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 2: that this man, who was middle class professional in the military,

356
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Speaker 2: that this had all happened. I think people found it

357
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Speaker 2: very hard to believe. So you could see the army

358
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 2: scrambling to gather evidence. More than a thousand pieces of

359
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 2: evidence in this case.

360
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a lot of evidence when I was

361
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 3: at all collected out of the crime.

362
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 2: Scene, I believe so, but it could be fibers, It

363
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: could be there was so much blood, there's blood droplets.

364
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 2: Who knows what they're counting as physical evidence. But a

365
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 2: thousand pieces of evidence is what they say.

366
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Speaker 4: You know, that speaks volumes to me too.

367
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Speaker 3: And this is going to probably be different than what

368
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Speaker 3: most people would expect. You think, oh, they got a

369
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 3: thousand items of evidence, they must have done a very

370
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 3: thorough job. What I have seen agencies that do this

371
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 3: type of thing, it often is an agency that doesn't

372
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 3: know what they're doing. They are now just collecting everything,

373
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 3: and sometimes they're collecting things in a manner that probably

374
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 3: should be consolidated into one item of evidence, but they've

375
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 3: partitioned it whatever it is out across twenty items of evidence.

376
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 3: I have worked massive cases. I've worked a case in

377
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Speaker 3: which I had what five six bleeders inside a you know,

378
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 3: six thousand square foot house, and these bleeders are running

379
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Speaker 3: all over the place.

380
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Speaker 4: We had.

381
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 3: The father was killed and then the gang banger who

382
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 3: came in was also shot and killed.

383
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: You know, two people dead, and we.

384
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 3: Didn't come close to having one thousand items of evidence.

385
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 3: I'm looking at these crime scene photos and yes, it's

386
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 3: going to be a big case, but I'm not going

387
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 3: to have a thousand pieces of evidence. So this is

388
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 3: where it's okay. Whoever's processing this scene is not doing

389
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 3: it right.

390
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 2: So I tell you this theory that I told you

391
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 2: I thought was a little bananas, just because I want

392
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: you to understand why what then happens next happens? This

393
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 2: is It seems like a prosecution team in disarray and

394
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 2: their theories to me don't make sense today.

395
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: No, no, and let me just clarify. Collect After she

396
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 3: reportedly has been bludgeoned stabbed with both a knife and

397
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 3: an ice pick, Yep regains consciousness and goes into Kimberly's room,

398
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 3: transfers her blood and then goes back to the master

399
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 3: bedroom where she succumbs to her injuries.

400
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 4: Is that the prosecution's theory.

401
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 2: Well, what I think they are saying happened is that

402
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: he beat her, he thought that was going to do

403
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: the job, and then she gets up, she bleeds from

404
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: whatever trauma she got from being beaten, bleeds in Kristen's bed,

405
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: and then goes back into the bedroom and that's where

406
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: he stabs her with the knife and the ice pick.

407
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: That's what I think they think happened, Okay, which makes

408
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 2: a little bit more sense. I just I couldn't tell.

409
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: It's hard to know from Collette's injuries from the club

410
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 2: if that was enough to cause bleeding, because I know

411
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: you said sometimes it just depends on where it is

412
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 2: and at what stage it's in, whether there's excessive bleeding

413
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: or not. And would she have really transferred blood into

414
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: Kristen's bed based on just being beaten by.

415
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 3: That, so you know, part of assessing Okay, Collet's movements. Now,

416
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: this is where if she has lacerations to her scalp

417
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: as a result of the blows from the club, and

418
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: she's also now got two broken arms warding off this thing,

419
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 3: she goes upright and then walks into the daughter's room. Well,

420
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: you're going to start to see blood flows going with gravity,

421
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: and so these blood flows will start flowing with gravity,

422
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 3: and it's possible that you would also have a dripped trail.

423
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 3: You know, the scalp has it bleeds a ton, and

424
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 3: she's got multiple scalp lacerations, she likely is going to

425
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 3: be leaving a trail in addition to having a lot

426
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 3: of downward flows on her clothing. Her shirt is thoroughly

427
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: saturated with blood as a result of the stab wounds,

428
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: and I'm seeing a fair amount of blood underneath her

429
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: head in the position as found, but I'm not seeing

430
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 3: anything to indicate that she has blood flows. And telling

431
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 3: me that she went upright after she received these blows

432
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: to her scalp, Yeah, I would dispute that. I believe

433
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 3: that the transfer of blood from Collette happened in a

434
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 3: different way.

435
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: Well, what the prosecutor says is that once he killed

436
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 2: the whole family, McDonald took Collette's body back to the

437
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: master bedroom. So they're saying, right, I know Paul shaking

438
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: his head. You guys can't see it, but he's shaking

439
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 2: his head. No, I agree, it makes no sense. It

440
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like the sight of the murder for her

441
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: happened in that bedroom makes no sense.

442
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 3: All three of these victims were killed and the locations

443
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 3: found and did not move from that location or were

444
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: not moved from that location. The two girls are killed

445
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 3: where their bodies are found in their rooms, and Collette

446
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: was killed at that location in the bedroom. I'd be

447
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 3: interested if there was any blood spatter, you know, on

448
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: the surrounding furniture walls, the carpeting, which I just can't

449
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 3: see right now with the photos that I have access to.

450
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: You would think between a knife and an ice pick

451
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: and a club that there would be like cast off

452
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 2: or something right sprays well.

453
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: Most certainly with multiple blows to the head, there's a

454
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: good likelihood that some of those blows would land where

455
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 3: there's that pooled blood source, and now you'd get some

456
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 3: cast off spatter, and then you know, with the stabbing

457
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: with both the ice pick and the knife, cast off

458
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 3: does occur. It's an absolutely real thing, but it's not

459
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 3: something that is always going to be readily apparent. You know,

460
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 3: it depends on is there a recording surface to document

461
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: the cast off? Because when you stay with a knife

462
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 3: to a point. Let's say, do multiple stab wounds, and

463
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: now the knife is coated in blood. Cast Off happens

464
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: on the upswing because that's when the centripetal forces and

465
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 3: you have all the blood coming out of the wound.

466
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: It gets flung off the knife up onto a wall.

467
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 3: But then on the downward strike, generally the blood has

468
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: already been flung off. You're not going to see more

469
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: blood being flung off during the downward stroke, So it's

470
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: usually on the upward. But where you see cast off

471
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 3: is usually on vertical surfaces because if there's no vertical

472
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: surface nearby, imagine these blood drops that are flung up

473
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: into the air.

474
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 4: What do they do?

475
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: Well, they just arc down and they just look like

476
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 3: blood drops on the carpet or on the floor. So

477
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: that's where I'm looking at these crime scene photos, and

478
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: none of these photos are done in such a way

479
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: to properly document the blood pattern. So somebody like myself

480
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: can have confidence in that, oh, I should be seeing

481
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: this or I'm not seeing that, so I can now

482
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 3: render an opinion. Basically, I'm seeing some contact transfers and

483
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: I'm seeing some blood pooling, and it's like, yeah, you know,

484
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 3: at least with what I can discern, they're killed right there.

485
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 4: All three of the victims are killed where they were found.

486
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: So their theory is not matching up with the evidence

487
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: that you're seeing, is what it sounds like.

488
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 4: No, it's not at all.

489
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: I think they are getting information probably from ABO testing

490
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: on these various blood stains and where they were located

491
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 3: in the house, and they're trying to come up with

492
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: a scenario to account for the location of those blood

493
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: stains or this brain fluid is what they're calling it,

494
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: but not taking into account that the other blood pattern

495
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: evidence the injuries really reflect much better what is going

496
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: on in terms of how this homicide was committed.

497
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: I don't think it's going to come to a surprise

498
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: to anybody that Jeffrey McDonald maintained his innocence throughout this

499
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: whole hearing, and his defense attorney called into question all

500
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: of this evidence and said it was pretty much ridiculous

501
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: that McDonald was an exemplary employee and proud military and

502
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: all of that, and now we have a problem because

503
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: of the way the investigation was done. I've hesitant to

504
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: list off all of the bad things that happened forensically here,

505
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: but will continue because this is very familiar. The crime

506
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: scene wasn't properly sealed, so twenty five people had stumped

507
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 2: their way through it. Law enforcement hadn't stopped the garbage

508
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: men from collecting the contents, so any evidence that Jeffrey

509
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: McDonald had thrown away, clothing, anything, had been discarded and

510
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: was now in a landfill. The ambulance driver had stolen

511
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: McDonald's wallet from the crime scene, and the pathologist never

512
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: bothered to get the girl's fingerprints before they were buried.

513
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: Oh boy, I mean, it's just like unreal. It's like

514
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Keystone Cops. And there were multiple pieces of evidence that

515
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: were lost or stolen, including that fiber found under Kristen's

516
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: fingernail and some of Collett's skin you know that came

517
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: from under her fingernail, and even the bloody footprint. Just

518
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: an incredible amount of bad things that happened on this case.

519
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that just really underscores a very

520
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: inexperienced investigators CSI. They need to come up with a

521
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: mechanism to be able to pull in true experts. Just

522
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: the crime scene processing at this day and age, the

523
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: FBI has their Evidence Response Team, the ERT, and these

524
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: are typically they're very highly trained individuals. But back in

525
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 3: the day, you know, they were begging me to go

526
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: out to homicide scenes because they don't get called out

527
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: to that. That's not what they investigate. And they needed

528
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: the experience. And so even the FBI's ERT, which I

529
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 3: think would be a better resource than you know, CID

530
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: here at Fort Bragg, you know, they're not necessarily going

531
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: to be the go to people to process a complex

532
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: case like this.

533
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: So I mean that is a big lesson, and the

534
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: Army learned that lesson too, because ultimately there was a

535
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: good enough argument from McDonald's defense attorney where there's just

536
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: not enough evidence and you're scratching your back.

537
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: I am, I've got a backscratcher right here that hangs

538
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: on my desk because I do not have the shoulder

539
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: mobility to be able to reach my and scratch my back.

540
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 4: And when my back itches it drives me nuts.

541
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: Okay, well scratch away, Paul, and I forgets you to

542
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: concentrate on this case. So the defense attorney poked holes

543
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: in this whole case. They gave up, the CID gave up,

544
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: and he was released. He was dishonorably discharged, and he

545
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: was let go to go and live his life with

546
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: no concrete answers as to who killed his wife and

547
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: his children and his in laws. Collette's parents and family

548
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 2: stood by him the whole time. Nobody believed that this

549
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: guy was capable of that, and these four hippies who

550
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: supposedly came and killed everybody in his family except for

551
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: him sort of dissolved into the ether and he went

552
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: off just to go do whatever he wanted to do. So,

553
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, this was not the end of the story,

554
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: but we'll pause at this part of the story because again,

555
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: this is something that was a case that you're right,

556
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: had the right questions been asked and the right experts

557
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: been brought in, this was a case that I would

558
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: assume from your opinion, being one of those experts who

559
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: could have been called in, you know, were you a

560
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: little bit older, that you think this would have been

561
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: a case that a DA, a good DA, could have

562
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: really sunk his teeth into.

563
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

564
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, I think if the investigation had been done

565
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: right from the very beginning, if the crime scene had

566
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: been processed right, documented appropriately, you know, the right interview

567
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: tactic had been used that a case against Jeffrey McDonald

568
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: could have been made back in the early seventies for sure,

569
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: without having to resort to DNA testing or anything that

570
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: is what today we would be expected to use to

571
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: try to resolve some of these questions.

572
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: Well, as I said, Koalit's parents had stood by Jeffrey,

573
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: but as the years went on they became more convinced

574
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: of his guilt. The police weren't particularly that interested in

575
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: pursuing for mysterious hippies when they really believe that McDonald

576
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: did it, but they started to become curious as Collette's

577
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: family started to pressure the police to investigate further. So

578
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: the police said, okay, well, we really do need to

579
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: investigate some of these instances of people who might have

580
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: taken some strong political stance. And they start talking to

581
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: first responders who had gone to the McDonald house, and

582
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: they ended up finally talking to one and said, listen,

583
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: Jeffery McDonald's says that these four people came, including a

584
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: woman in a big floppy hat. Did you see anybody

585
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: like that in the neighborhood? And the first responder said, yes,

586
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: there's a young woman, blonde with a floppy hat standing

587
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: near the road that night that he responded to the house,

588
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: and it was a woman named Helena Stockily, and she

589
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: was described as a local drifter who was known to

590
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: abuse hard drugs. This is a real person who he's describing,

591
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: as a real person who existed, who described herself as

592
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: sort of the hippie type, and who used her drugs.

593
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 4: Okay, so do the investigators track her down?

594
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: They do, and one of the things about Helena is

595
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: that she frequently used drugs and it was sort of

596
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: a constant state for her.

597
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: So she essentially said, listen.

598
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: I'm around here all the time, you know, I know

599
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: I fit this description, and sort of hymns and has

600
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: for a little bit. And then as they press her,

601
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 2: she says that, yes, I was high on hallucinogens a lot,

602
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 2: but I do remember being in his house and I

603
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: remember kind of having a grudge against him. So she

604
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: starts unspooling this information while constantly contradicting herself, and she

605
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: was currently on drugs while being interviewed by the police.

606
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: So a woman who says, yes, I think I was

607
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: in the house and maybe I was responsible for this.

608
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems weird, doesn't it.

609
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: Well, yes and no. There's many cases, you know, many

610
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: cases that never get any public notoriety in which you

611
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: run across individuals like this during the course of the investigation.

612
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 4: And you have to resolve them.

613
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 3: So she's making statements, so I do remember being in

614
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: the house, I was high on drugs, and of course

615
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: her state of mind based on her intoxication is something

616
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: that has to be taken into account. You still get

617
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: a statement from her because chances are if she's such

618
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: an abuser of drugs, she's probably more cognizant under the

619
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 3: influence than when she is off the drugs when.

620
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 4: Going through withdrawals.

621
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: So you get a statement and then if it's significant enough.

622
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 4: You know my initial line of inquiry.

623
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 3: If she says, oh, I remember being inside the house, okay,

624
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: describe what you remember?

625
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay.

626
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: I want to know does she have specific memories with

627
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: details that I can correlate inside the house? Yep? And

628
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: then you know, if she does, then it's like, okay,

629
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: she's an important minimally a witness, if not a suspect.

630
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 3: Now it's going to be I need to get her

631
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 3: clean to where Now let's get a statement when she's

632
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 3: sober and see how that correlates, if possible. But we've

633
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 3: got three others that she reportedly is with. Does she

634
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 3: make any statements about the two white guys and the

635
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 3: black guy that supposedly also came into the house.

636
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: Vague, vague stuff, I mean, nothing that people had read

637
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: about it. This was a case that had been in

638
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: the news for a long time. Nothing's and she couldn't

639
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: point to anybody. I think the police everybody felt like

640
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: this was just very unreliable.

641
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: She wasn't sure what was happening.

642
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: Everything she said contradicted itself, but it was odd. And

643
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: that's what I wanted to get back to is do

644
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 2: you think that he spotted her in the area, made

645
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 2: note of it? So this was very premeditated? Because they're

646
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: not saying this is premeditated. The prosecutor was saying. Our

647
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: big argument, he snapped, and that was it can it

648
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: be both ways? Can it be planned but not premeditated

649
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: at the same time.

650
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 4: Well, I think it can be both ways.

651
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 3: In terms of was this premeditated by McDonald to eliminate

652
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: his family and stage it to look like, you know,

653
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: hippies came in. That is a possibility. It's also a

654
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: possibility that he ends up in a moment for Age

655
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: killing Collette, and now you know, realizes I've got to

656
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 3: kill everybody else if I'm going to be able to

657
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: get out of this without being thrown in custody for

658
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 3: the rest of my life. His statement, as I brought

659
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: up early on of how detailed he describes this wi

660
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 3: her name, what's her last name, Stokely, Stockiley, Stockily. You

661
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: know the fact that she's in the area. The ambulance

662
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 3: driver sees her that night, Okay, and that's significant. He's

663
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: placing somebody who matches a description of what McDonald's saying.

664
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: One of the intruders look like.

665
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: Near the road is what he specifically says near the road.

666
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: But she's somebody in the area all the time, right,

667
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: So this is somebody that McDonald likely has seen on

668
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 3: prior occasions. Now for a premeditated crime, he could have

669
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: seen her and go, Okay, this matches sort of this

670
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: idea I have to kill my family based on the

671
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 3: Manson type of scenario. She looks that part, so she's

672
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: going to be one of the people who came in

673
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: to kill the family. But he also could have just

674
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: twisted off that night, no pre planning, but now in

675
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: a retroactive staging, he's going, there's that weird woman. She's

676
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: going to be one of the acid heads, and he

677
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: had seen her enough to be able to describe her

678
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: to the detail that he did. I can't differentiate which

679
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: way at this point in time, but I think both

680
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: are possibilities. But this is where for me, this all

681
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: just goes towards the staging aspect. He is picking out

682
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: somebody that he's probably seen on many occasions coming and

683
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: going as he goes into work and comes back to work,

684
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 3: or is just out and about.

685
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is really interesting

686
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: also about this case I forgot to tell you conveniently

687
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: is that at the crime scene the police had found

688
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: a blood soaked Esquire magazine with a story about Sharon

689
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 2: Tate and the Manson murders that happened just a few

690
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: months ago.

691
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 4: Well, there you go.

692
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 2: So this feels very pre planned. This feels very pre planned. Yeah,

693
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald is free, but Kalet's parents are really pressuring

694
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: the CID to take it to court, and it goes

695
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: through a whole lot of legal rigamar role where it

696
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: ends up going into federal court and they take it

697
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: to a grand jury who chooses to indict him for

698
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: the murder of his wife and two children.

699
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:58,959
Speaker 1: This is nine years later.

700
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: This man has been walked looking free for nine years

701
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: until nineteen seventy nine. Now he is going on trial

702
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: which he had never been on before. There was just

703
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: a hearing and that was it to evaluate the evidence.

704
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: So this is a brand new thing for Jeffrey McDonald.

705
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: And I think this is an interesting disclosure. This is

706
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: what convinced the in laws. It sounds like Jeffrey MacDonald

707
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: and his wife and their friends have come forward and

708
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: said over this time period he was having multiple affairs.

709
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: Collette was very unhappy. She had either asked him for

710
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 2: a divorce, but they were heading for divorce absolutely when

711
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: all of this happened. So do you believe in triggers?

712
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: Is this a trigger? Her demanding a divorce is what

713
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: it seems like happened.

714
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 4: Well, it could be for sure.

715
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: And when we get into taking a look at when

716
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 3: we have these interpersonal crimes where we have the offender

717
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 3: and the victim know each other, have an intimate relationship together,

718
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: oftentimes the crime occurs as a result of something that

719
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: really fractures the emotional state of that intimate relationship. So

720
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 3: if she is now approaching him for divorce and he

721
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: is now feeling slighted in some way I'm not good

722
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: enough and he flies off in a fit of rage,

723
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 3: that is entirely a possibility. But you know we've had

724
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: these conversations, is that the stable individual under these circumstances

725
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 3: would be more of Okay, let's talk about this. We're

726
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: going to get a divorce. Let's get a divorce. You

727
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: don't go off and kill your entire family, you know.

728
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: So there's obviously an issue that McDonald internally has just

729
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: as a person to fly off in this fit of

730
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 3: rage like this and just brutally kill his wife and

731
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: two young girls.

732
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, there's a little pen at the end of this

733
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 2: that I'll tell you. So Jeffrey McDonald goes on trial.

734
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: Seventy five witnesses come forward, these extra Mary affairs are revealed,

735
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: there's the evidence, and it just seems clear to this

736
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: court that he is guilty. He is convicted of killing

737
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: all three of them, Collette and Kristen and Kimberly, and

738
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: he is sentenced to three life sentences in North Carolina.

739
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is interesting is

740
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 2: as these appeals come up, He's still alive. He's still there.

741
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: He's alive, okay, and he's around. And as these appeals

742
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: come up, he in the past has clung to the

743
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: idea of Helena Stockiley, the woman in the floppy hat.

744
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: This never goes anywhere. She's now long gone and nothing

745
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: has resolved itself.

746
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: He is there. He has maintained his innocence.

747
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: He has said that when he comes up for parole,

748
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: when and I think the last tie was twenty twenty,

749
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: when he comes up for parole, if he is forced

750
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: in order to go free to of course, parole boards

751
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: want to hear repentance and yes, I did it.

752
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: He said, I'll never do that. I'd rather spend the

753
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: rest of my life prison.

754
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: But how do you feel about that about people who

755
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear he's guilty, who still say

756
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: I would rather sit and rot in prison?

757
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: Is that a disillusion?

758
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: Is he trying to convince himself or does he care

759
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: so much what other people think that he refuses to

760
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: admit to something.

761
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, well, it tells me he still has hope.

762
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 3: He has hope that he will be set free, and

763
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: so he's never going to make an admission to the

764
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 3: parole board and have even if it's to help him

765
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 3: actually get out, but to have this stigma of being

766
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 3: a family killer. He doesn't want that, for whatever his

767
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 3: internal reasons are. So he believes that, you know, by

768
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: being able to take a look at what I would

769
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 3: consider to be very suspect evidence, you know, with further

770
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: DNA testing, that he might be able to have his

771
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 3: innocence proven. When I looked this up before we got

772
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 3: on to talk about the case. From a forensic standpoint,

773
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: it looks like back in twenty eleven, the defense was

774
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: pursuing like three hairs to do DNA on.

775
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a fingerprint that was never matched to anybody

776
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: who could have been the Maytag repair guy.

777
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: We have no idea, I mean, come on, yeah.

778
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 3: And this is where I think I really want to,

779
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 3: you know, speak to this, because what do those hairs

780
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 3: mean to the case. I can go into anybody's house

781
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 3: and find foreign hairs. How many times have you had

782
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: other people over to your house, people that either you're

783
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 3: friends with or you know, people that come into your

784
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 3: house for one reason or another, Like you said, the

785
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 3: Maytag repairman. So you know, unless that hair is from

786
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 3: a location that is significant. And to give you know,

787
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 3: just a very blunt example. If I've got a foreign

788
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 3: hair that is wrapped up in let's say a sexual

789
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 3: assault victim's pubic hair, now that hair is significant. If

790
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 3: I have a hair that I collected off the carpet

791
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 3: from a tape lift and it doesn't match anybody in

792
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 3: the house, it means nothing to me, you know, at

793
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 3: least you know, to prove that.

794
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 4: In this case, his innocence.

795
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: This is where when I'm assessing this case, I want

796
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 3: to go after evidence that is core to the actual homicide.

797
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: And what is that That is those weapons, that's going

798
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 3: to be the club, the knife, the ice pick.

799
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 4: And in this day and age.

800
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: If I've got the intruder theory going on, there's a

801
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 3: chance that I would be able to find foreign DNA

802
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: on those items that could possibly be used through genealogy

803
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 3: to identify who that person is and then investigate it

804
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: as to whether or not they had the method, the means,

805
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 3: the motive, the opportunity to be able to commit this crime.

806
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 4: The defense is they always and this is their job.

807
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 3: You know, they are going after evidence that they think

808
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: is going to prove their client's innocence because they have

809
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 3: confidence it's likely not going to come back to their client.

810
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: But no, let's petition the courts to allow further testing

811
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: to go after the actual instruments of homicide. And is

812
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 3: there somebody else on these instruments that does not come

813
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: back to Jeffrey McDonald or the family. If there is,

814
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: now the defense has an argument to say somebody else

815
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 3: could be the one responsible for killing Collette and the

816
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 3: two girls.

817
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, I find Jeffrey McDonald continuing to be an odd

818
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: person to look into. He is seventy eight, and he

819
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: has petitioned several times to be released under the federal

820
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: Compassionate Release law for people who are older than seventy

821
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: to give prison under certain circumstances. And then he has

822
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: withdrawn a couple of these requests, So we have no

823
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: idea what he's thinking. He's seventy eight and he's serving

824
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: these sentences. He has such an ego that he requested

825
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: decades ago a book to be written about him, and

826
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: he contacted a guy named Joe McGinnis, who's a really

827
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: great journalist to write a book, and it was a

828
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 2: book called Fatal Vision, and it was turned into a

829
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: TV series, and ultimately someone asks the author, what do

830
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: you think of Jeffrey McDonald, the man who contact you

831
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 2: and said write my life story? And he called him

832
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: a narcissistic sociopath who would never have a good relationship

833
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: with women, and he was self centered and just a

834
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: miserable person. So, boy, when your biographer says that about you,

835
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: time to reflect on some things in life, I think,

836
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: and Jeffrey McDonald is doing nothing but reflecting. I'm assuming

837
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: in prison.

838
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 3: And with what I'm seeing on this case, he is

839
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 3: rightfully in custody for this quadruple homicide and I would

840
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: hate to see him be released unless there is compelling

841
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 3: evidence that I would have confidence that would prove his innocence,

842
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: and right now I don't see how that's ever going

843
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: to be found with what I know about this case.

844
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 2: Well, you and I often don't talk about people who

845
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: are still alive, these suspected killers, convicted killers who are

846
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: still alive. So this has been an interesting one, and

847
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, I will admit it's not my favorite

848
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: time period to work in, but this has been really interesting,

849
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: just the intersection between the military and the government, and

850
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: that someone would if we're going to assume he's guilty,

851
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: and I do that someone would use something in culture

852
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: as effectively as he has just to set up a

853
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: crime scene based very specifically on the Manson family murders

854
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: that happened. And just where this all fits into history

855
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: has been really interesting. It's been an interesting road to

856
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: go down with you.

857
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's where it's a great example of you know,

858
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 3: when you do have an intelligent offender and they want

859
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: to get away with a crime, you have to be

860
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: able to recognize how they will stage a crime scene.

861
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: And this is where when I'm taking a look at

862
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 3: this case, it just speaks to being staged.

863
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 4: And as I mentioned.

864
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: At the top, is that where do people turn to

865
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 3: to learn how they should stage a crime?

866
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: Yep?

867
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: And it is it's a pop culture and he's got

868
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: a magazine in the house that is now talking about

869
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: the Manson family and there you go. You know, for me,

870
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: that's like, okay, I know exactly where he got his

871
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: information from. It was something within the house in this

872
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: day and age would be off the computer, and whether

873
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 3: he planned it ahead of time or in a fit

874
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 3: of age, he killed Collette and then decided I need

875
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: to make this look like the Manson family murders. But

876
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: I believe that's what he did.

877
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: But he created some reasonable doubt in there, which has

878
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 2: been one of the more interesting cases that I've read

879
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 2: about recently. So I am now going to go get

880
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: in my car and finish up Mike Kenny Loggins Ekstravaganza,

881
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: and I'm going to follow it up with Wham.

882
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: What about you? You gonna go drink more kava?

883
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 4: Wham? You have to know when, of course I know

884
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 4: who Wham?

885
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 3: Okay, So think about the era when Wham was big

886
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 3: and I'm listening to hard rock.

887
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 4: Wham was like the arch enemy right to you. I

888
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 4: could not walk.

889
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: With the group of people that I knew and say,

890
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: oh I just listened to Wham.

891
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 2: Oh way, we could not be friends, Paul, we could

892
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: not be friends. That's all I listened to. Is way

893
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: up with the little def Leppard of there. Well, next

894
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: week will be another really good case, I'm sure. So

895
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: go get some rest and clear your mind and go

896
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: have a good walk in the mountains and then I will.

897
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: See you next week.

898
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 4: Sounds good.

899
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 2: Thanks again, this has been an exactly right production.

900
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

901
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

902
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

903
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

904
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

905
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

906
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

907
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

908
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

909
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: buried Bones Pod.

910
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

911
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

912
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and Paul's

913
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: Best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold Cases

914
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: is also available now