Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by our newest Patreon
Speaker 1: members Renee, Dan and Jasmine, and all the rest of
Speaker 1: our members who support the show. If you'd like to
Speaker 1: become a member of our Patreon community and enjoy the
Speaker 1: many benefits of the membership, go to One You Feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash join. It is always fascinating to me,
Speaker 1: just as a observer of human behavior, that anybody would
Speaker 1: think that every single person with any illness would be
Speaker 1: exactly the same. Welcome to the One you Feed. Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Gabe Howard,
Speaker 1: an award winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar
Speaker 1: and anxiety disorders. He is the host of the weekly
Speaker 1: psych Central show. His new book is Mental Illness As
Speaker 1: an Asshole. I Gabe, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks, Eric,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 1: You and I have met in person. We're both people
Speaker 1: in Columbus, although on fortunately for today we are not
Speaker 1: both in Columbus. But um, you know, so we've got
Speaker 1: to meet in person, which was nice, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about your book, which is called Mental Illness Is
Speaker 1: an Asshole and other observations. But before we get into
Speaker 1: the book, let's start like we always do with the parable.
Speaker 1: There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops. He thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second and looks up at his
Speaker 1: grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins, and
Speaker 1: the grandfather says the one you feed. So I'd like
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you what that parable means
Speaker 1: to you in your life and in the work that
Speaker 1: you do. I think, as with all things, wherever you
Speaker 1: give the most attention is going to grow the biggest.
Speaker 1: And if you give the most attention to something negative,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have more negativity because you're well feeding. It
Speaker 1: is as the as the parable states, and that really
Speaker 1: feeds into a lot of what I do. When I
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, it was only negativity crisis
Speaker 1: and mental illness doesn't need any help. It's all over
Speaker 1: the news, it's everywhere, and because that's what society is feeding,
Speaker 1: people misunderstand people like me. They're scared of people with
Speaker 1: mental illness, and they don't get the help they need
Speaker 1: if they're having a mental health issue because they think, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not a violent psychopath, and that's all they understand.
Speaker 1: So in my work, I wanted to feed the other
Speaker 1: side again, to go back to the parable. I want
Speaker 1: people to understand that there are people like Gabe Howard
Speaker 1: walking around all over and when you look at me,
Speaker 1: I'm just a dopey looking, redheaded guy. You don't look
Speaker 1: and see a bipolar You just look and see a
Speaker 1: middle aged man. And that's good because I was able
Speaker 1: to get the help that I needed. And that's really
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to put out there. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: essentially feed the other side, because especially when I started,
Speaker 1: a lot of people weren't doing that exactly. And so
Speaker 1: let's start by talking a little bit about bipolar. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's been a topic of the show before,
Speaker 1: although we've had so many episodes I can't fully remember,
Speaker 1: but I don't think we've really talked a lot about it.
Speaker 1: So I thought we'd start this conversation by you telling
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what bipolar is, kind of
Speaker 1: how it maybe showed up in your life, and some
Speaker 1: things that people should know about bipolar. That's a big question,
Speaker 1: so I'm glad that you've got a long show. First,
Speaker 1: let's start with the technical definition of bipolar disorder. The
Speaker 1: technical definition is extreme highs and extreme lows, so uh
Speaker 1: and sort of vacillating back and forth. So the extreme
Speaker 1: lows would be like suicidal depression, the extreme highs would
Speaker 1: be godlike mania, and then everything in between the thing
Speaker 1: that I want people to know about bipolar disorder, and
Speaker 1: I think the real sticking point for a lot of
Speaker 1: people is they think people with bipolar disorder are either
Speaker 1: one pole or the other, the extreme low or the
Speaker 1: extreme high, when in reality it's better described as moving
Speaker 1: back and forth between two poles, which means that sometimes
Speaker 1: you will be typical, you will be normal, you will
Speaker 1: be fine. And I think that that's a very dangerous
Speaker 1: thing because whenever you hit one of those extremes, people
Speaker 1: remember you when you were okay. They're like, well, I
Speaker 1: I know Gabe can pay attention if he wants to.
Speaker 1: I know Gabe can achieve on a high level if
Speaker 1: he wants to. I know that Gabe doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be a jerk because he was fine at my you know,
Speaker 1: birthday party last month, and and now we can't get
Speaker 1: a hold of him, so he's choosing this behavior. I
Speaker 1: guess I could describe by polar disorder a sort of
Speaker 1: an intermittent illness. Sometimes you're sick, sometimes you're not, and
Speaker 1: that makes it one harder to get diagnosed, but two
Speaker 1: harder for people to understand and have compassion for you.
Speaker 1: They just remember you when you're great, and then they
Speaker 1: remember that you hurt their feelings, or that you were unrelied, doble,
Speaker 1: or in in some cases, that you did something terrible
Speaker 1: to them. And you know, that looks a lot of
Speaker 1: different ways, right. One of the things you say is
Speaker 1: that one thing to know about bipolar is that the
Speaker 1: symptoms aren't necessarily equally split. So the people who do
Speaker 1: know bipolar is really high, really low, they assume you
Speaker 1: you get, you know, maybe equal amounts of both, and
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the case. It's not only not necessarily
Speaker 1: the case, it's it's pretty much never the case. One.
Speaker 1: I don't even know how you would figure that out.
Speaker 1: Every time you're manic, you press a button, and every
Speaker 1: time you're depressed, you press another button. I mean, it
Speaker 1: just it's really just not the reality. There's no real
Speaker 1: way to decide which one is more present than the other,
Speaker 1: because both are damaging in their own way. And again,
Speaker 1: you you can't help but remember that center part, that
Speaker 1: that everything is okay. You're just whoever you are that
Speaker 1: middle So I don't even know where you put that,
Speaker 1: but yes, so many people are like, oh, well he's
Speaker 1: depressed today, but tomorrow is going to be super happy.
Speaker 1: So that's a good trade, one that wouldn't even be
Speaker 1: a good trade if it was true, and to it's
Speaker 1: just not even the reality. And so sort of expanding
Speaker 1: that theme is that everybody's bipolar will look a little
Speaker 1: bit different. Yeah, everybody's everything looks a little different. So
Speaker 1: it's it is always fascinating to me, just as a
Speaker 1: observer of human behavior, that anybody would think that every
Speaker 1: single person with any illness would be exactly the same.
Speaker 1: That that's just fascinating to me. But it really is
Speaker 1: the belief of society that every single person with a
Speaker 1: specific mental illness in my case, bipolar disorder, are gonna
Speaker 1: be exactly the same as all of the other people
Speaker 1: with that illness. I think if they stop and think
Speaker 1: about it, even for just a moment, they'd realize how
Speaker 1: crazy that is pun intended, right, So tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about realizing you had bipolar and what treatment
Speaker 1: has looked like for you over the years. This is
Speaker 1: an absolutely fascinating story, and I am biased, I'll admit it,
Speaker 1: but looking at all of it and really putting the
Speaker 1: story into you know, a speech and a keynote and
Speaker 1: writing it down has has really just left me kind
Speaker 1: of in awe of everything that happened to me, and
Speaker 1: that that's not as exciting as it sounds. I was
Speaker 1: born with bipolar disorder, but nobody noticed. I thought about
Speaker 1: suicide every day for my entire life, as far back
Speaker 1: as I can remember, and I tell people, Yeah, when
Speaker 1: I was ten years old, I thought about suicide. When
Speaker 1: I was four years old, I thought about suicide, and
Speaker 1: they're like, well, what about on good days? On good days,
Speaker 1: I thought, hey, I'm happy, I'm not going to commit
Speaker 1: suicide today, And on bad days, I would think, is
Speaker 1: today the day I'm getting closer. I'm I'm weighing these
Speaker 1: pros and cons. And when I looked out at everybody else,
Speaker 1: I just assumed that they were doing it too, because
Speaker 1: this was the only thing that I ever knew. I
Speaker 1: just assumed that this was part of the human experience.
Speaker 1: I assumed that everybody was contemplating suicide every moment of
Speaker 1: every day. I had no idea that it was abnormal,
Speaker 1: and neither did my family. Everybody at this point, they're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well he's gonna a zag to the left and tell
Speaker 1: me how horrible his parents were. Yeah, they weren't My
Speaker 1: parents are good people. They're married to each other. They
Speaker 1: loved me very much. My father is now a retired
Speaker 1: truck driver. My mother was a stay at home mom.
Speaker 1: We were a close knit family. We ate dinner together,
Speaker 1: we vacationed together, we fought together. They knew stuff about me.
Speaker 1: I knew stuff about them. So it wasn't that they
Speaker 1: were absent or not paying attention. They just had absolutely
Speaker 1: no mental health or mental illness understanding or training, except
Speaker 1: of course, for the pop culture earmarks, the stereotypes. They
Speaker 1: believed that people with mental illness were violent. I wasn't violent.
Speaker 1: They believed that people with mental illness us were you know,
Speaker 1: rocking back and forth in a corner, drooling on themselves
Speaker 1: and not intelligent. I was the opposite of that. I
Speaker 1: was the life of the party. I was charismatic. I
Speaker 1: was outgoing. I was extroverted. And of course the biggest
Speaker 1: one that they believed is that people with mental illness
Speaker 1: came from bad families. My family was was great. They
Speaker 1: were they were good people. My mom loves me, my
Speaker 1: dad loves me, my grandparents, even my siblings, and that,
Speaker 1: you know, it pains me to say, because you know,
Speaker 1: who wants to like their siblings, but I did. I
Speaker 1: love them. They're they're fine people. We just had no idea.
Speaker 1: And after I was diagnosed with bi polar disorder and
Speaker 1: my parents learned what it was, my mother said, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I always called you my doctor Jekyl and
Speaker 1: Mr Hyde child. I'm like, Mom, you're literally describing bi
Speaker 1: polar disorder. And she's like, we didn't know, and they didn't.
Speaker 1: I got help because I was lucky. I ran into somebody,
Speaker 1: a woman I is casually dating at the time. And listen,
Speaker 1: I say casually dating because this is a family show.
Speaker 1: She understood what mental illness actually was. She recognized the
Speaker 1: symptoms of bipolar disorder, she recognized the symptoms of suicidality.
Speaker 1: She saw it all, and which is amazing to me.
Speaker 1: She intervened on my behalf. She walked up to me
Speaker 1: and said, are you thinking about killing yourself? And I
Speaker 1: looked her right in the eyes, and I got excited
Speaker 1: and I said, yes, yes, I am. And I got
Speaker 1: excited because I thought this meant that I would have help,
Speaker 1: that she would help me, and this was fantastic. And
Speaker 1: then she looked at me like I was crazy, and
Speaker 1: she panicked and she started, just oh my god, we
Speaker 1: have to go to the hospital. I said, the hospital.
Speaker 1: We don't I'm not sick. And she said, no, we
Speaker 1: have to go to the emergency room right now. And
Speaker 1: I said the emergency room. That that's where you go,
Speaker 1: like if you break your leg or you get in
Speaker 1: a car accident and you're having a heart attack. I
Speaker 1: just I I was just flabbergasted that she was behaving
Speaker 1: in this way. And she said, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1: Here's what we're gonna do. Get in the car, we'll
Speaker 1: go to the emergency room, and we'll ask the doctor
Speaker 1: if this is where you need to be. If the
Speaker 1: doctor says that this is where you aren't supposed to be,
Speaker 1: you will win the argument and I will take you
Speaker 1: to dinner any place in the city my treat. And apparently,
Speaker 1: even in my suicidal, delusional, and depressed state, I still
Speaker 1: had the overwhelming desire to win an argument. So we
Speaker 1: hopped in the car, we drove to the emergency room.
Speaker 1: We walked in, she said to the intake nurse, this
Speaker 1: is my friend Gabe. He wants to kill himself. And
Speaker 1: things started to happen. They they put me in a room.
Speaker 1: A social worker came to visit me, They started asking
Speaker 1: me questions. There was forms other people came to see me,
Speaker 1: they started doing I don't even know, but what they
Speaker 1: did clearly was part of a protocol, like they had
Speaker 1: seen this before, like other people like me had been
Speaker 1: there before. And at that point I pretty much blacked out.
Speaker 1: I don't remember anything past the realization that, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there is something very wrong with me. And I want
Speaker 1: to be clear. When I got in that car to
Speaker 1: ride with her, I was one percent positive I was
Speaker 1: going to be right on point nine. Not pretty sure, no,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent positive that she was wrong and I
Speaker 1: was right. That was the level that I was at.
Speaker 1: And the next morning I would wake up in an
Speaker 1: impatient psychiatric hospital where I would be diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
Speaker 1: That is quite a story and speaks to how we
Speaker 1: cannot even have a clue sometimes what is happening with us.
Speaker 1: So you're diagnosed with bipolar, then you're in impatient psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 1: What has your recovery looked like in broad strokes? So
Speaker 1: I spent four days and three nights in the psychiatric hospital,
Speaker 1: and when I walked out, I always say that that
Speaker 1: began my four year at battle with mental illness because
Speaker 1: I had to fight it, and it took four years
Speaker 1: from the time that I was diagnosed into the time
Speaker 1: that I reached recovery. And I always explained that what
Speaker 1: recovery means to me is that I spend more time
Speaker 1: living my life than I do managing bi polar disorder.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to spend some amount of time managing
Speaker 1: bi polar disorder every day for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: But the day that I walked out of the hospital,
Speaker 1: of my time was managing it. And now it's probably
Speaker 1: ten percent overall. And as long as I pay attention,
Speaker 1: as long as I do the right things, take the medication,
Speaker 1: go to the doctors, reports symptoms accurately, and be open
Speaker 1: to the idea that I can get sick again so
Speaker 1: that I can get the medical care ahead of a
Speaker 1: time instead of in creasis. I'll be okay. Probably that
Speaker 1: that probably always of course gets me, but but I
Speaker 1: should be okay. But yeah, four years of my life
Speaker 1: was spent battling an illness that one I didn't know
Speaker 1: existed until you know, that morning, and that I thought
Speaker 1: would be cured overnight. Because there's again misconceptions abound. There's
Speaker 1: just so many of them, and me and my family
Speaker 1: we believed them all. We believed every single stereotype. And
Speaker 1: I think that that made it lonely and depressing and
Speaker 1: sad and scary and frightening. But that's what it looked like.
Speaker 1: That's what it looked like, trial and error, ups and downs,
Speaker 1: goods and baths with progression, right. And I think so
Speaker 1: much of learning to live with mental illness of any sort,
Speaker 1: whether it be bipolar, depression, anxiety, whether it be addiction.
Speaker 1: You know, my experience with those things has been similar
Speaker 1: to yours that it took me a while to figure
Speaker 1: out what actually works for me. You know, it was
Speaker 1: it was as much, it feels to me, a learning
Speaker 1: process as it was anything else. Now, some of that
Speaker 1: learning was happening chemically, because it was about finding the
Speaker 1: right medications are different things. But the vantage of looking back,
Speaker 1: I just see how I was learning, Okay, that works,
Speaker 1: that doesn't, or that helps a lot, that doesn't help
Speaker 1: as much. Hope I need more of that than I
Speaker 1: thought I did, you know, kind of on and on
Speaker 1: like that. And I actually really love that definition of
Speaker 1: recovery because I often say I don't know what to
Speaker 1: say about my depression right, because I never know, Like
Speaker 1: do I say I'm recovering from depression. I have depression.
Speaker 1: I don't have depression. But by that standard of I
Speaker 1: spend more of my life living it than I do
Speaker 1: managing it. I am in a wonderful state of recovery.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Recovery looks different for everyone, and I
Speaker 1: think that that's something that the greater society has to
Speaker 1: understand that I am. I am very lucky in a
Speaker 1: number of ways, but specifically, I'm very lucky. I work
Speaker 1: a full time job, I own a house, I'm married,
Speaker 1: I go on vacations. There's a lot of things that
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to do when I was first diagnosed
Speaker 1: that I am now able to do fifteen years later.
Speaker 1: And that's fantastic that I was able to reach this
Speaker 1: level of recovery. But listen, there's people out there who
Speaker 1: live with bipolar disorder that aren't able to work, or
Speaker 1: they're not able to work full time, or they're able
Speaker 1: to work part time, but they can't really leave the
Speaker 1: city because they get too uncomfortable, or they're not able
Speaker 1: to drive because driving just creates too much anxiety. Or
Speaker 1: it's too much risk for them. But all of those
Speaker 1: people can consider themselves recovered as well because they're living
Speaker 1: the best life within the confines of their illness. And
Speaker 1: I think that that is so valuable because so often
Speaker 1: people are like, well, you can't be recovered with bipolar
Speaker 1: disorder because you're on disability Listen. That's that's wildly inappropriate
Speaker 1: and incredibly unfair. It's like saying that somebody in a
Speaker 1: wheelchair can't live their best life because they can't walk.
Speaker 1: They're living their best life within the confines of the
Speaker 1: cards they were dealt. And I think that it's just
Speaker 1: so vital for people to remember, and society just often
Speaker 1: forgets this message. My first real dealing with quote unquote
Speaker 1: mental illness was dealing with my addiction, right, and in
Speaker 1: those days, at least in the programs, it was a
Speaker 1: very clear thing. You're sober, you're not sober, right, And
Speaker 1: I think there's more nuance to it than that than
Speaker 1: I used to, but so it was very clear, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the line of recovery was very clearly demarcated,
Speaker 1: and it's not so much with other mental illnesses. But
Speaker 1: I think the question that is so interesting to me
Speaker 1: and it's one that I have wrestled with on and
Speaker 1: off and still do to some extent. Is how do
Speaker 1: you know when the recovery you've got is good enough?
Speaker 1: And how do you know when I need to keep
Speaker 1: trying different things? And I know you can't answer that
Speaker 1: question for every person. It's it's individual. I just be
Speaker 1: curious about how you would think about that. For me,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get as far as I could,
Speaker 1: and some of that is is unhealthy. I'll be the
Speaker 1: first to admit, because you know, I call it moving
Speaker 1: the goal post. When I was first diagnosed, I wasn't working,
Speaker 1: and I said, look, I'll be happy as soon as
Speaker 1: I can work part time because I'm tired of being
Speaker 1: in the house. And then as soon as I got
Speaker 1: a part time job, I was like, well, I'll I'll
Speaker 1: be happy as soon as i'm working full time. And
Speaker 1: as soon as I got a full time job, I
Speaker 1: was like, well, I'll be happy as soon as I
Speaker 1: make more money. And as soon as I got a
Speaker 1: job making more money, I was like, well, I'll be
Speaker 1: happy as soon as I use this money to buy
Speaker 1: a house, and and just on and on and on
Speaker 1: and on and on. So I do caution people, You've
Speaker 1: got to be happy with what you have, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you can't work toward more. The reality
Speaker 1: is is I did not know how far I could go,
Speaker 1: and as I sit here right now, I don't know
Speaker 1: how much further I can go. There is a possibility
Speaker 1: that my chosen career of of being a speaker and
Speaker 1: a writer and a podcaster could could cause me to relapse.
Speaker 1: That is a very real possibility. There are not a
Speaker 1: lot of people with severe and persistent mental illness that
Speaker 1: can hop on a plane and fly to a different
Speaker 1: time zone and then fly back and be okay, because
Speaker 1: that's really hard. That's hard on people who aren't managing
Speaker 1: mental illness. I am very fortunate that I have learned
Speaker 1: coping mechanisms. I have the right medication, and I have
Speaker 1: the right plan every time that happens. I know what
Speaker 1: to do before, I know what to do during, and
Speaker 1: I know what to do after. But you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a crisis point, a panic attack and anxiety issue or
Speaker 1: a breakdown away from Look, Gabe, you can't travel anymore,
Speaker 1: or you have to travel a lot less or who knows.
Speaker 1: That's part of honestly managing your symptoms. That's part of
Speaker 1: taking an honest account of what you can and cannot do.
Speaker 1: And as you said, that looks different for everybody. You know.
Speaker 1: Right now, I traveled one or two times a month,
Speaker 1: and I can absolutely handle that. But I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could handle one or two times a week.
Speaker 1: So you know, if tomorrow somebody says, hey, Gabe, we
Speaker 1: want to pay you a million dollars, but you've got
Speaker 1: to be in a different city twice a week, that
Speaker 1: very well could be way too much for me. And
Speaker 1: that would be hard because I want the million dollars,
Speaker 1: but I gotta decide what's more important, wellness or the
Speaker 1: million dollars. But to be fair, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know that that won't work. How are the city
Speaker 1: set up? Are the cities next to each other? There
Speaker 1: just be a lot of questions that I would have
Speaker 1: to ask and a lot of honest stock that I
Speaker 1: would have to take, And I'd want to make sure
Speaker 1: that any backslide wasn't past the point of no return,
Speaker 1: because some backslide is just normal, it really is. We're
Speaker 1: not always exactly the same. We're human. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about medication for a second. You just brought it up.
Speaker 1: I love um. In the book you describe, you're in
Speaker 1: an event and there's a couple saying to you, you know,
Speaker 1: we've tried medication with our son. None of the medications
Speaker 1: work for him, and maybe you can talk about how
Speaker 1: you answer that question. I absolutely love this question because
Speaker 1: I really think that people just have a general misunderstanding
Speaker 1: of how to treat people from a medical standpoint. If
Speaker 1: you have any illness, let's let's talk physical illness. Let's
Speaker 1: talk your diabetes, your cancer, your headache. And you go
Speaker 1: to a doctor and the doctor prescribes you medication and
Speaker 1: that medication doesn't work. You go back to the doctor
Speaker 1: and the doctor is like, oh, I'll prescribe you a
Speaker 1: different medication. And I threw a headache in there, because
Speaker 1: what are there you know, seven or eight different pop
Speaker 1: alert headache remedies from aspirin to a leave, to tail
Speaker 1: in all to ibuprofen, and we all have a different
Speaker 1: one that we swear by for our headaches, and we
Speaker 1: all take a different amount one pill, two pills, three pills.
Speaker 1: And that's for something as simple as a headache. But
Speaker 1: for some reason, when we talk about mental health, people
Speaker 1: are like, well, I was diagnosed with mental illness. I
Speaker 1: went to the doctor, he gave me pills and it
Speaker 1: didn't work. Quack doctor is a liar, just pushing pills
Speaker 1: on me, And like, why why is this happening? Why
Speaker 1: is there so much stigma about the cure that you
Speaker 1: thought the doctor would magically give you the right pills
Speaker 1: right up front. And second, there's a couple of hundred
Speaker 1: psychiatric medications, and I myself with bipolar disorder, I'm on
Speaker 1: seven different medications, which is not uncommon. Cocktails are very
Speaker 1: common for people with severe and persistent mental illness. So
Speaker 1: the fact that you would have to take multiple medications,
Speaker 1: and the fact that the dosage isn't magical, and the
Speaker 1: fact that you would have to be prescribed these medications
Speaker 1: one at a time, so the doctor knows which pill
Speaker 1: is causing the the good or which pill is causing
Speaker 1: the symptom, or just how the pill is working for you.
Speaker 1: This really creates a scenario where you have about, you
Speaker 1: know what, trillions of combinations, literally trillions of combinations, and
Speaker 1: people are like, look, I tried one and and pills
Speaker 1: don't work for me. Yeah, you've got to get into
Speaker 1: the billions before I'm going to start believing you and
Speaker 1: and listen. I always like to to to put a
Speaker 1: little you know, like asterix right there and say, look,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna have to try billions. Doctors are are
Speaker 1: really intelligent. They've gone to school for this. They they
Speaker 1: understand what to look for so that they they're not
Speaker 1: just guessing. It is trial and error, but it's educated
Speaker 1: trial and error. And that's why it took me four
Speaker 1: years to get on the right medication, because we had
Speaker 1: to try all of these and get closer and closer
Speaker 1: and closer and closer. And while it took four years
Speaker 1: to go from diagnosed to recover, that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: I didn't see constant improvement along the way. I also
Speaker 1: saw setbacks because that's part of recovery as well, but
Speaker 1: I saw improvement as well. I really think medication just
Speaker 1: gets an incredibly bad rap because I just don't think
Speaker 1: people understand how medical treatment works and mental illness really
Speaker 1: does impact the young. Sixteen to twenty four is the
Speaker 1: average age of diagnosis, and what sixteen year old really
Speaker 1: understands medical care. I mean, honestly, we all think we're invincible, right,
Speaker 1: And you go on to say that you know, mental
Speaker 1: illnesses a medical illness, and it needs medical intervention. What
Speaker 1: that medical intervention looks like is between the patient and
Speaker 1: their doctor. It shouldn't be between the patient, their doctor,
Speaker 1: and society, which I think he is what you're speaking
Speaker 1: to here, where there there's a lot of opinion out
Speaker 1: there about medication or don't take medication, or it's good
Speaker 1: or it's bad, or it's a big pharma thing, or
Speaker 1: it's all these different things. As is typical of me,
Speaker 1: I sort of see this middle ground, right. I see
Speaker 1: what some people are saying, which is, you know, you
Speaker 1: mentioned you're not feeling good, You go in, your doctor
Speaker 1: writes you a prescription for something, and that's the end
Speaker 1: of the conversation. That is, to me, not the right approach.
Speaker 1: I also think that swearing off medication because you think
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with it, I don't know that i'd
Speaker 1: be here if I had done that. You're absolutely right,
Speaker 1: and I have a joke. I'm like you. I consider
Speaker 1: myself a moderate and the mental health advocacy debate, which
Speaker 1: I thought, meant both sides would love me, but in reality,
Speaker 1: it means that both sides hate me. But you're right.
Speaker 1: You are so right. It is so individualized, and there's
Speaker 1: just a lot of shame that comes with being young
Speaker 1: and taking medication, and there's this idea of weakness. If
Speaker 1: you take medication, you must be weak. I'm like you,
Speaker 1: I understand that. I'm not going to tell you that
Speaker 1: when I was twenty five years old and I was
Speaker 1: carrying around what I call on a granny pill minder,
Speaker 1: and I was swallowing seven pills a day and my
Speaker 1: grandfather was taking one. You know that he's my grandfather,
Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, and he's on one pill. I'm his
Speaker 1: twenty five year old grandson and I'm taking fist fools
Speaker 1: every day. I'm not going to tell you that that
Speaker 1: didn't sting, because it's stung. But I learned in therapy,
Speaker 1: and I learned with experience that yeah, it stings when
Speaker 1: your body lets you down. It stings to be sick,
Speaker 1: it stings to be different. That's not the fault of
Speaker 1: the treatments. That's the fault of Hey. We all have
Speaker 1: egos and we think we're invincible. As soon as I
Speaker 1: got out of my own way, I realized this was
Speaker 1: my best shot to my best life, and that made
Speaker 1: the pills so much easier to swallow because frankly, I
Speaker 1: would absolutely, unequivocally not be here without my medication. I
Speaker 1: would lose my job, I would lose my house, I
Speaker 1: would lose my dog, I would lose my wife. I
Speaker 1: would lose the ability to speak in complete sentences. But
Speaker 1: I guess that makes me strong. I don't see it
Speaker 1: that way anymore. But I did have to work that
Speaker 1: out for myself. That was not my opinion. On day one.
Speaker 1: I had to mourn the life that I lost, and
Speaker 1: that took time. Yeah, and you know, I agree, I
Speaker 1: think that. You know, my approach to medication was, you know,
Speaker 1: when I started taking it, I was like, you know
Speaker 1: what I want to do all and my depression was bad,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't completely crippling. So I was like, I
Speaker 1: would like to make sure that I'm taking care of
Speaker 1: myself physically. Am I exercising? Am I eating well? Do
Speaker 1: I have social connection? Like? Am I doing the things
Speaker 1: that people say helped depression? And I realized I was
Speaker 1: doing all those things that I was still freaking miserable.
Speaker 1: So I went on medication. And people have heard me
Speaker 1: tell that story before, the part of the story that
Speaker 1: nobody has heard yet because I haven't really shared it
Speaker 1: on the air yet because it's pretty recent. Was about
Speaker 1: a year and a half ago. I said, you know what,
Speaker 1: I've been on these medications along long time, and I
Speaker 1: don't know if I still need to be on them
Speaker 1: because I'm doing pretty well. So I'm going to make
Speaker 1: an attempt to get off of these medications. And I
Speaker 1: did it very very slowly. I did it with doctors helps,
Speaker 1: or I did it with a doctor's help. All that
Speaker 1: I did it the quote unquote right way, extremely conservatively.
Speaker 1: And the verdict turns out to be at least right
Speaker 1: now that yes, I did need to be on some
Speaker 1: of those medications because I got all the way off
Speaker 1: and I had a period that was okay, and then
Speaker 1: I went, you know what, boy, I am slogging through
Speaker 1: life way more than I am used to like. It's depression.
Speaker 1: There's no cause for it. I'm still doing everything in
Speaker 1: life that I was doing before, and I take the
Speaker 1: medicine away and I suddenly feel lousy, right, And I
Speaker 1: share that only because for me it felt important to
Speaker 1: see to make sure I needed them. But now that
Speaker 1: I know, at least for now, that I need them,
Speaker 1: I have no problem with that. I have no issue
Speaker 1: with being on medication because it makes life so much
Speaker 1: better for me, and that just seems to be the
Speaker 1: way I am built and designed. What I love about
Speaker 1: your story. I've got a couple of things to say
Speaker 1: about it, but my favorite part is that you you
Speaker 1: told everybody that you did it conservatively and responsibly and
Speaker 1: with the doctor's help. I understand the the do I
Speaker 1: still need this? You know, I've been doing the same
Speaker 1: thing for ten years. Has my body updated? You know?
Speaker 1: Let's let's face it. We all look different at forty
Speaker 1: than we did it thirty, and we looked different at
Speaker 1: thirty than twenty. So it's not unreasonable to think that
Speaker 1: your your makeup has changed because as we age, our
Speaker 1: makeup changes. So you did it the right way. So
Speaker 1: often I hear that story of I don't think I
Speaker 1: need this anymore, so I quit cold turkey and I
Speaker 1: didn't tell anybody. And that is a terrible idea. It
Speaker 1: is a dangerous idea, and it often ends not Well,
Speaker 1: let's just go with that. Yeah, I mean it took
Speaker 1: me a year. Over a year was the was the
Speaker 1: weaning process, probably closer to sixteen months. Was you know.
Speaker 1: So when I say slow and conservative, I mean it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: There's there's another part that I want to talk about
Speaker 1: for a moment, and and this is this is what
Speaker 1: I love and hate all about the Internet. In your story,
Speaker 1: you said that right after you went off, so so
Speaker 1: Eric is one off of psychiatric medications, that there was
Speaker 1: a period of time where you were fine and then
Speaker 1: it sort of started to trickle downhill for you. Is
Speaker 1: that a fair statement? Is that correct? Yeah? And I
Speaker 1: actually never got to be clear, I never got a
Speaker 1: hundred percent off all the medicines there was. There was
Speaker 1: still one that I was on, a on a much
Speaker 1: lower dose of, but I was still on so I
Speaker 1: was still in the weaning process. Okay, so let's uh,
Speaker 1: let's let's adjust your story a little bit so that
Speaker 1: I can make my point. Thank you for your honesty,
Speaker 1: but but let's pretend that you would have gotten all
Speaker 1: the way off, because that's usually, honestly, where this story
Speaker 1: ends up, either because it's called turkey, or because people
Speaker 1: are highly motivated to get all the way off and
Speaker 1: now they're they're on zero medications, and they do because
Speaker 1: this is how our bodies work. We we feel, okay
Speaker 1: for a couple of months, either because we still have
Speaker 1: it built up in our system or because even like
Speaker 1: I said, with bipolar disorder, there's there's that period where
Speaker 1: you do absolutely nothing and you'll feel just fine. Depression
Speaker 1: works the same way. You do absolutely nothing and you'll
Speaker 1: feel just fine, you know, usually right before the downturn.
Speaker 1: And this is what I hate and love about the Internet.
Speaker 1: Somebody will go completely off of their meds. A month later,
Speaker 1: they're still feeling fantastic, and they get on YouTube and
Speaker 1: they make a video. Hi, my name is John, and
Speaker 1: I was big farm up pumped me full of drugs
Speaker 1: and I'd stopped taking them and I'm just fine. Look
Speaker 1: I just climbed this mountain and went to Disney World
Speaker 1: and met the girl of my dreams, big pharmas a scam.
Speaker 1: Stopped taking your meds. And then that video gets uploaded
Speaker 1: the YouTube and two months later, when they end up
Speaker 1: in the psychiatric ward, or they end up depressed and
Speaker 1: that girl leaves them and Disney has them arrested for
Speaker 1: running naked through the streets, they don't go and update
Speaker 1: that video. That video lives forever as test theremony that
Speaker 1: you don't need medication and that Big Pharma is scamming you.
Speaker 1: Please do not believe those videos. One even if they
Speaker 1: were true, which they are not, that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: it will be true for you. Bill Gates can take
Speaker 1: a bath and hundred dollar bills you can't. Don't do
Speaker 1: that bad idea. Those hundred dollar bills are probably important
Speaker 1: for the rest of us. Bill Gates can soil them
Speaker 1: all the once. Right, Yeah, and so I mean I
Speaker 1: really love that you know that kind of what you
Speaker 1: said in the quote I read in the beginning, Right,
Speaker 1: this is not about a debate with society. It's not
Speaker 1: society to weigh in on whether you should or should
Speaker 1: not be taking medicine, because that's a that's an individual
Speaker 1: question and there are so many variables. So is there
Speaker 1: a place for reasonable criticism of of drug policy, sure, right,
Speaker 1: But to take that, to take that, or to take
Speaker 1: any demographic thing and boy it down to a person
Speaker 1: and individual is very dangerous because, as you've said multiple times,
Speaker 1: everybody is so very different. Our experiences are upbringing the
Speaker 1: level of recovery we've had through therapy, you know, our
Speaker 1: biochemical makeup. Everybody is different, and so whether you need
Speaker 1: medicine or not is not a question that really involves
Speaker 1: anyone else. It means what do you need to be
Speaker 1: living your best life exactly? And that really is the
Speaker 1: message that I try to get out there. I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are listening to the wrong people,
Speaker 1: and it flusters me so much because some of the
Speaker 1: industries that people are listening to are also billion dollar industries.
Speaker 1: You know, the natural supplement industry, the cannabis oil industry,
Speaker 1: the alternative medical industry. They they talk about these like,
Speaker 1: oh no, they're just trying to help me. These are
Speaker 1: also billion dollar industries. So if you don't trust doctors
Speaker 1: and pharmaceutical companies because they're billion dollar industries, you should
Speaker 1: also be weary of these other industries because they're also
Speaker 1: billion dollar industries. They're just also unregulated and they can
Speaker 1: lie to you. Pharmaceutical companies are at least overseen. I
Speaker 1: agree that they probably need more oversight, and there is
Speaker 1: a definite discussion, like you said, about the way that
Speaker 1: we prescribe, the way that we monitor and science, but
Speaker 1: it's still some it's still more than zero. The industry
Speaker 1: that people flock to to listen to zero oversight, and
Speaker 1: they're like, well, that's how you know they're honest because
Speaker 1: nobody's paying attention. And again that just scares me. It
Speaker 1: scares me, terrifies me for me ultimately, you know middle way, right,
Speaker 1: It's one of my philosophies in life, the middle way
Speaker 1: for me, I really look at depression in me. As
Speaker 1: you know I've said before, I throw the whole kitchen
Speaker 1: sink at it. Medicine is a part of it, but
Speaker 1: it is not sufficient, right. There have been lots of
Speaker 1: other things that I do. You actually say at one
Speaker 1: point in the book that in order to ment to
Speaker 1: manage a mental illness, and you're talking about bipolar in
Speaker 1: this case, a person has to have a lot of skills.
Speaker 1: There's not one thing that you learn and do. You
Speaker 1: actually need to manage multiple skills. And that's been my
Speaker 1: experience with depression is it's taken a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: different things sort of patched together to equate recovery. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Could you imagine if all you needed to do to
Speaker 1: be a quarterback on a professional football team is throw
Speaker 1: a ball. You don't have to have cardio, you don't
Speaker 1: have to be a fast runner, you don't have to
Speaker 1: have defense or teamwork. Nothing. As long as you can
Speaker 1: throw the ball. You're the top quarterback in the world.
Speaker 1: That's nonsense. The top quarterbacks, they have multiple skills, multiple skills,
Speaker 1: and that that is how it is for mental illness.
Speaker 1: If you just have one skill, that's a problem. And
Speaker 1: so many people rely way too heavily on medication. Medication
Speaker 1: is it's a it's a necessary thing. It really is
Speaker 1: for for most people with serious and persistent mental illness.
Speaker 1: I'd go as far as to say that it's it's required,
Speaker 1: probably for of people. But if all you do is
Speaker 1: swallow the pill and expect your life to get better,
Speaker 1: it's not absolutely it will not get better. Pills are
Speaker 1: not magical at all. They are They are one component,
Speaker 1: and I don't even know that they're the most important component,
Speaker 1: because again, that's just that's just a nonsense argument. It's
Speaker 1: like saying, what's the most important part of your house.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If any of it's missing, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be pretty ticked off at my house. So I guess
Speaker 1: I like it all equally. And then people debate, but
Speaker 1: electric is more important? You won't have internet? Okay, this
Speaker 1: is stupid. I want it all. That's what we need
Speaker 1: to focus on. Whole health, holistic wellness, not just we're
Speaker 1: a little bit better, We're completely better. Because even though
Speaker 1: I have bi polar disorder, I can't go out and
Speaker 1: weigh six pounds and be like what I treated by polar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's not gonna work. I can still get diabetes,
Speaker 1: I can still have bad knees. I can still you know,
Speaker 1: try out for six d pound of life. So I
Speaker 1: have to take care of my physical health as well.
Speaker 1: I don't get a pass. I can have multiple illnesses,
Speaker 1: and I don't want that one is enough. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean my experience has certainly been that those physical
Speaker 1: components are so critical to my managing of depression, not
Speaker 1: to mention, as you said, all the other diseases I
Speaker 1: could get and what I have been so uh happy
Speaker 1: about is the right word. But as I look at
Speaker 1: a lot of these lifestyle behaviors, you know, let's just
Speaker 1: say basically exercising and eating pretty well, and you know,
Speaker 1: for me, a contemplative practice. And the good news is
Speaker 1: these things seem to help all kinds of things. So
Speaker 1: it's not you know, in my case, it's not like
Speaker 1: I have to be off doing all these strange esoteric
Speaker 1: practices for my depression that are not also improving my
Speaker 1: life in lots of other areas at the same time. Exactly,
Speaker 1: diet and exercise is important whether you're mentally ill or not,
Speaker 1: and we need to remember that, you know, drinking lots
Speaker 1: of water, getting a good night's sleep, all of these
Speaker 1: things are important and and people understand that. But you know,
Speaker 1: let's talk about something that you mentioned earlier in the show,
Speaker 1: which was you have friends, you have family, you have
Speaker 1: people around you. You you go out in public and
Speaker 1: you say hi to the person who sell as your coffee.
Speaker 1: That is also something that we do that contributes to
Speaker 1: our overall wellness. It's important, it sure is. So let's
Speaker 1: change directions here because we're running near the end of time.
Speaker 1: But I really wanted to hit this because I've never
Speaker 1: heard anybody say this in quite the way that you did. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's about suicide, so obviously very serious, very heavy topic,
Speaker 1: but I just want to kind of read what you
Speaker 1: wrote because I think this really struck me. The mentally
Speaker 1: ill do not commit suicide. It makes it sound like
Speaker 1: they did it on purpose or they had to say
Speaker 1: in the matter, but they don't. Really. Their illnesses were
Speaker 1: in control. The entire concept of committing suicide as it
Speaker 1: relates to mental illness is nothing short of tragedy. The
Speaker 1: context of this quote, as you're saying this to somebody,
Speaker 1: your son died by suicide. More specifically, he died from
Speaker 1: his mental illness. Your son didn't kill himself, the illness
Speaker 1: killed him. Of all the things that I've ever written,
Speaker 1: that's probably be the most poignant one, because when when
Speaker 1: somebody dies by suicide, we we've all all heard the
Speaker 1: horror stories people not being allowed to have funerals in
Speaker 1: the churches that they were members of since they were children,
Speaker 1: being shunned by family and friends because you know, after all,
Speaker 1: your your child did it on purpose. We've heard things like,
Speaker 1: how could he be so selfish to do that? Didn't
Speaker 1: he love us enough to stick around? And they're really
Speaker 1: just as this blaming of people who are dead, And
Speaker 1: I tell so many people, I'm like, look, they're not faking,
Speaker 1: they're not doing it to you. This isn't manipulation. It's
Speaker 1: not part of an overall plan. If you need proof
Speaker 1: that this person was sick, it's that they're no longer here.
Speaker 1: And I don't understand why we talk about suicide the
Speaker 1: way that we do. And not only is it tragic
Speaker 1: to the memory of the person who has passed away,
Speaker 1: but it's just so cruel old to their family because
Speaker 1: the message is clear, your family member didn't love you
Speaker 1: and did this to you, and that makes it so
Speaker 1: hard to mourn and move on. And I just I
Speaker 1: just can't even imagine. I can't even imagine, had I
Speaker 1: died by suicide, the idea that my family would have
Speaker 1: thought that it was about them in any way. It
Speaker 1: had nothing nothing to do with them, And it had
Speaker 1: everything to do with an illness that I did not understand,
Speaker 1: I did not ask for, and I did not know
Speaker 1: I had that desperately needed medical intervention. And because I
Speaker 1: got that, I'm here. Had I not got that, my
Speaker 1: mom and dad could be walking around right now saying, well,
Speaker 1: Gabe was so selfish. I can't believe he did that
Speaker 1: to us. I just can't even imagine. I can't even imagine, right,
Speaker 1: And you go on to say, like, it's normal to
Speaker 1: be angry, but be angry at the illness. Yeah, put
Speaker 1: the blame where it goes. I'm I'm a big proponent
Speaker 1: of that, and I want to pivot on this topic
Speaker 1: a little bit. First, I agree with you Hunter or Sent,
Speaker 1: and like I said, I'd never heard somebody say it that. Well, Um,
Speaker 1: I want to pivot on that point to people who
Speaker 1: are struggling with the thoughts of suicide, because you also
Speaker 1: then at different points talk about holding on right, don't
Speaker 1: choose a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and you
Speaker 1: say it is important to remember that these feelings will pass.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow is another day, and you need to hang on
Speaker 1: and fight, quite literally for your life. Suicide doesn't end pain,
Speaker 1: it ends life. There is no feeling of relief because
Speaker 1: there's no ability to feel, but the pain remains. It's
Speaker 1: transferred onto the people left behind. Mental illness works just
Speaker 1: like any other illness. The person who has the illness
Speaker 1: can do things to impact the outcome. It doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you'll win, it doesn't mean that it always works,
Speaker 1: but there are things to be done when it comes
Speaker 1: to mental illness. One of the things that we can
Speaker 1: do is call a doctor. We can call we can
Speaker 1: go to the emergency room. We can tell somebody that
Speaker 1: we need help or we're going to die. And this
Speaker 1: is just so incredibly important and a bigger thing that
Speaker 1: we can do is catch it early. The earlier you
Speaker 1: realize you're sick, the easier it is to treat. And
Speaker 1: again in a manner of speaking, but we want to
Speaker 1: do something. And if you are all alone and these
Speaker 1: thoughts are in your brain, please please do anything you
Speaker 1: can to fight. And I'm just hoping that somebody remembers
Speaker 1: these words. That it doesn't end the pain, it transfers
Speaker 1: it to somebody else, because if they can remember that,
Speaker 1: maybe that will allow them to hold on. But if
Speaker 1: they can't remember it, if their illness wins. Listen, we
Speaker 1: all talk about fighting cancer, and he fought cancer and
Speaker 1: he beat cancer. But we do need to understand that
Speaker 1: no matter how hard you fight, not everybody beats cancer.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing with mental illness. No matter how
Speaker 1: hard you fight, not everybody beats it. Not everybody can
Speaker 1: beat it. It is an illness after all. But I
Speaker 1: do want to tell the people suffering, if you can
Speaker 1: hang on, you can win. If you can get treatment,
Speaker 1: you can win. If you can get help, you can win.
Speaker 1: And that's the part that you can affect, that's the
Speaker 1: part that you can control. You have to do your part.
Speaker 1: Remember when I said that medication wasn't magic, it's not
Speaker 1: you have to help, and I just really want to
Speaker 1: empower and encourage people to help. Well, that is a
Speaker 1: powerful and beautiful place for us to wrap up. You
Speaker 1: and I are going to go on and have a
Speaker 1: post show conversation where we talk about key mistakes that
Speaker 1: people with social anxiety can make, especially at the beginning
Speaker 1: of a friendship. And I also want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about this dance between how other people see
Speaker 1: us and what we can accomplish and what we see
Speaker 1: in ourselves and so um I want to I want
Speaker 1: to talk about that too, and you and I'll do
Speaker 1: that in the post show conversation. Listeners. You can get
Speaker 1: access to post show conversations and other things at one
Speaker 1: you Feed, dot net slash Support. Gabe, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for coming on the show. I have really enjoyed this
Speaker 1: conversation and I think it's really been powerful and hopefully
Speaker 1: really useful. Thank you so much for having me Eric,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it has been a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 1: consider making a donation to the one you Feed podcast.
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