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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Manny here with a quick shameless plug before

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Speaker 1: we start today's episode. If you're in or around New

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Speaker 1: York City, Noah, Devin and I are putting on a

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Speaker 1: live event book talk on March twenty ninth. Now, you

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Speaker 1: may be wondering whose book we're going to be discussing

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Speaker 1: at this show. Is it Gavin Newsom's, Is it Josh Shapiro's.

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Speaker 1: Is it a third future presidential candidate? Well maybe, because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about my new book. It's called

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Speaker 1: Colored People Time, A Case for Casual Rebellion, and it's

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Speaker 1: a collection of humorous essays about my personal life, about politics,

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Speaker 1: about video games, about revolutions, and partying and gardening. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot packed into this book, and it's all connected

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Speaker 1: by the theme of the concept of time. Now, one

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Speaker 1: great thing about this book is how short it is.

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Speaker 1: Take it to the beach, take it to the doctor's office.

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Speaker 1: You can tell your friends that you read a whole

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Speaker 1: book and they don't have to know that it only

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Speaker 1: took you ninety minutes. In the description for this episode,

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Speaker 1: you can find my book and you can find the

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Speaker 1: tickets to the live event where we will talk about

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Speaker 1: said book. Thank you for your attention to this matter,

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Speaker 1: and enjoy today's episode. I'm Manny and this is no

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Speaker 1: such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments

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Speaker 1: and yours by actually doing the research. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be taking a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: world of sports gambling.

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Speaker 2: Antiop what people say, There's.

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Speaker 3: No no such thing, no touch thing, touch, thank.

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Speaker 1: Touch, thank touch thang.

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Speaker 4: All right.

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Speaker 1: By now, we've all heard about sports betting. Yes, not

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Speaker 1: only have you heard about it, you've seen it everywhere.

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Speaker 1: You've seen Kevin Hart promoting DraftKings with Lebron James.

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Speaker 3: Are you a little too old to be playing football?

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Speaker 4: Wait? What they want?

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Speaker 1: Somebody that can run it?

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Speaker 4: Forty?

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Speaker 2: Now, somebody that is forty.

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Speaker 1: You've seen fucking John Hamm promoting bet MGM. So they

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Speaker 1: pulled out the BETMGM app and put together a live parlay.

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Speaker 4: But what would the fourth leg be?

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Speaker 1: The big you are and those are just during commercials.

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Speaker 1: You've also seen this stuff, like literally during the games.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm watching sports most days, probably more

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Speaker 1: than the average person. But I'm curious how often have

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Speaker 1: you two seen sports gambling promotional material in your lives?

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Speaker 4: I don't really watch sports besides baseball, but it's become

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Speaker 4: really annoying the amount of just sort of sports gambling,

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Speaker 4: odd stuff that like Apple has now started broadcasting baseball

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Speaker 4: games and they all have like the likelihood that this

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Speaker 4: next ball is going to be a strike. Just stuff

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Speaker 4: that's just like so inconsequential. Yeah, like graphics on screen

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Speaker 4: the entire game.

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Speaker 5: And like I feel like on baseball they have it

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Speaker 5: on the actual like not on the bottom.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've seen it.

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Speaker 4: Like it's Apple doesn't like Apple does it on screen. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 4: which is really crazy. Yeah, it's ins insane. The local stuff,

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Speaker 4: the local like my local s and ys, the Mets

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Speaker 4: local they don't do. It's not as in your face,

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Speaker 4: but it's like you're saying, it's every single commercial they

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Speaker 4: come back from break, they're talking about the odds. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's it's it just feels like in the beginning it

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Speaker 4: was really like, oh my god, it's just crazy. Now

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Speaker 4: it's just like so normalized. I don't even think about

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Speaker 4: it anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and during basketball games you'll get like the live

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Speaker 1: odds thing, which just feels wrong, like they're literally trying

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Speaker 1: to win the game and it's like all these stats

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Speaker 1: and graphs and shit for me anyway ruins the like

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Speaker 1: experience of watching the Ax game.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agreed.

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Speaker 1: In case people don't know, sports betting is a type

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Speaker 1: of gambling, except instead of risking your money on poker

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Speaker 1: or roulette, you're risking your money on, for example, whether

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Speaker 1: the Lakers are going to win a game against the Celtics. Now,

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Speaker 1: it used to be the case that if you wanted

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Speaker 1: to bet on sports, you'd get your ass in the

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Speaker 1: car and drive all the way to like Atlantic City

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Speaker 1: or some casino in your area, and you'd place a

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Speaker 1: bet there. But in twenty eighteen, the Supreme Court struck

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Speaker 1: down a law that banned sports betting in most states.

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Speaker 1: So because of that, you're now seeing this proliferation of

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Speaker 1: sports betting all over the place, and you can now

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Speaker 1: legally place a sports bet on your phone, which was,

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Speaker 1: you know, not the case before. I you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: be honest, I've I've dabbled. I've probably probably more than dabbled.

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Speaker 4: On the record. Yeah, you're very much on the record

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Speaker 4: talking about it's got.

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Speaker 1: To be transparent about this, and I think like, if

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Speaker 1: you're responsible, obviously it can be like a fun way

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Speaker 1: to kind of heighten the urgency of the watching experience.

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Speaker 1: Have you guys ever placed a bed or I've dabbled.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm clean now, but yeah, I mean there have

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Speaker 5: been times when, you know, I used to go to

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Speaker 5: a lot of NETS games and it would add a

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Speaker 5: layer of excitement to what would otherwise be a pretty boring, yeah,

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Speaker 5: unclimbactic game regular season when you you know, maybe you

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Speaker 5: want the Nets to win, but you need Julius Randall

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Speaker 5: from the Knicks at the time to score over a

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Speaker 5: certain amount and it's down to the last minute.

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Speaker 2: It's exciting stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Now, I never bet anything, you know, more than I

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Speaker 5: think fifty dollars in yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah, making

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Speaker 5: some crazy parlay, which is, you know, laying a bunch

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Speaker 5: of random things to happen essentially and hopefully they all

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Speaker 5: happen to make you know, say one thousand dollars on

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Speaker 5: that fifty dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an exciting high, you know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I remember we went to a

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Speaker 1: Nets game together once and we would both have kind

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Speaker 1: of a bet riding, and I remember you won a

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Speaker 1: decent amount once.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, how to quit? Yeah, pretty much.

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Speaker 1: Devin have you partaken at all?

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Speaker 4: No, nothing in my body wants to bet on sports,

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Speaker 4: especially because you know, I'm a fan of the Mets

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Speaker 4: and there's just so such an unpredictable team that I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I have I watched them every single day and I

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Speaker 4: have absolutely no idea what is going to happen day

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Speaker 4: to day. Yeah, so I am not putting money on

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Speaker 4: the line for this. Although you guys have You haven't

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Speaker 4: convinced me yet, but I guess my initial thought with

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Speaker 4: sports betting was like, you just got to pick who

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Speaker 4: wins and who loses, And I was like, I would

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Speaker 4: never do that because I don't know day to day

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Speaker 4: whether or not I'm actually gonna win. Yeah, But then

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Speaker 4: y'all talked about, oh, you can bet on smaller things, right,

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Speaker 4: you can bet on whether or not somebody gets a

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Speaker 4: certain amount of hits her. So that's a little bit

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Speaker 4: more fun because it's less you know, you're kind of

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Speaker 4: leaning into the uncertainty. Yeah, yeah, versus like trying to

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Speaker 4: make calculated decisions. It's a little bit more like feels

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Speaker 4: a little bit more like the lottery to some degree

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Speaker 4: of like, oh, right, you know I'm gonna put some

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Speaker 4: amount of money down and like if I lose it, whatever,

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Speaker 4: but you're not like thinking so much about it. You

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Speaker 4: have you know, obviously you have a little bit of insight,

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Speaker 4: but it's a lot of it is up to chance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's this kind of idea. I think

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Speaker 1: that it's different than regular gambling because you know, people

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Speaker 1: feel like they know sports, they know a team in

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Speaker 1: and out, and they feel like they can affect some

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Speaker 1: money coming their way because you know, they know that

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Speaker 1: show hao Tony's gonna get one hit per game. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's a real stat. I don't watch baseball,

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Speaker 1: but if you bet on that every game and he

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Speaker 1: does it most games, you know you're not gonna win

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Speaker 1: that much money.

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Speaker 4: If it's an easy bet, then you're not gonna win them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Just really quickly, I'll just go through like

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Speaker 1: the popular kinds of vets. One of them is called

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Speaker 1: the money line, which is literally just choosing which team

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Speaker 1: is gonna win. One of them is called the over under.

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Speaker 1: You're just choosing whether the amount of points in a

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Speaker 1: game will be over x amount or under that amount,

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Speaker 1: and then the other one is the spread. So like

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Speaker 1: if the Vegas will determine that the Lakers are gonna

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Speaker 1: win by seven points, and then you can bet on

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Speaker 1: the Lakers covering that spread if you think they're gonna

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Speaker 1: win by more than seven points. Now, sports betting has

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Speaker 1: gotten a lot more complicated. There's like a million more

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Speaker 1: things you can do now, one of those things being

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Speaker 1: in recent history, the parlay, which is, for example, saying

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Speaker 1: that the Lakers are gonna win, they're gonna win by

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Speaker 1: over seven points and Lebron James is gonna score twenty points.

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Speaker 1: And the more things you add to the parlay, you know,

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Speaker 1: your bet becomes lottery esque. It just multiplies the amount

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Speaker 1: of the payout that you're gonna get, but also makes

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Speaker 1: it that much more unlikely. And I think it's that

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Speaker 1: kind of bet that I feel like, as you know,

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Speaker 1: the all these sports betting apps are promoting the most

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Speaker 1: because they know it's they're so unlikely, and that feels

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Speaker 1: kind of like dark and insidious to me. They're like

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Speaker 1: giving you free money to do these things so that

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Speaker 1: you can get hooked on it. And I have seen

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Speaker 1: people get hooked on it, like I know people.

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Speaker 4: Who are parlay specific parlays.

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Speaker 1: But also like once you're in the app. I think

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Speaker 1: the app is like designed in a way almost like

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Speaker 1: social media, where like you're there's these like little dopamine.

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Speaker 5: And there's promos and stuff like that too, so it's like, oh,

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Speaker 5: you'll get an extra point, like you'll get some credit

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Speaker 5: if you do a five leg parlay instead of a

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Speaker 5: three leg one.

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Speaker 1: The worst kind of promotion I've seen is like, all right,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna give you free money to work with if

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Speaker 1: you make a parlay bet that's plus five hundred or longer,

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Speaker 1: which means like you're only you're only gonna get free

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Speaker 1: money if you make a bet. That's impossible. So it's

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Speaker 1: just like this kind of loop the cycle that keeps

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Speaker 1: you in there.

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Speaker 4: My introduction to the parlay was uncut Gems.

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Speaker 2: That's right, se Yeah, famous example.

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Speaker 4: This is me, all right, I'm not a fucking think.

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Speaker 4: This is my fucking way. This is how I went.

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Speaker 2: Look how that turned out did not did not work

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Speaker 2: out so good for Sandler.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that I think maybe Uncut Gems was that was

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Speaker 1: a little bit before uh it was not like betting

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Speaker 1: popped off online. Yeah, and I think it kind of

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Speaker 1: popularized it too.

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Speaker 4: I think they did a great job explaining what it

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Speaker 4: was too. Yeah in the movie, because I had no idea.

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Speaker 4: By the end, I understood.

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Speaker 5: Everyone pause this and come back in two hours. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: pull up you know, HBO Max. Yeah, if our explanation

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Speaker 5: didn't make sense, Yeah, So we'll talk to our guests

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Speaker 5: Danny in a little bit about kind of the detrimental

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Speaker 5: aspects of sports betting, what it's done to us as

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Speaker 5: a society.

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Speaker 1: But briefly, there's also been controversy with sports betting fiascos

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Speaker 1: in the NBA, particularly where players are getting caught up

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Speaker 1: in allegedly rigging games. And so we know this has

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Speaker 1: happened with Johntay Porter. Michael Porter Junior's brother.

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Speaker 6: Toronto Raptors forward Johntay Porter has been banned from the

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Speaker 6: NBA for life, the league announced. The NBA said that

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Speaker 6: Porter provided confidential information to betters, limited his own participation

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Speaker 6: in games for gambling purposes and bet on.

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Speaker 1: NBA games, and he's alleged to have like basically played

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Speaker 1: worse because someone else that he knew bet on the game,

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Speaker 1: bet on his unders. So maybe instead of jumping up

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Speaker 1: to get that rebound, he would let someone else do

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Speaker 1: it so that his friend's bet could hit. And then

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Speaker 1: more recently we've seen Terry Rozier.

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Speaker 4: All right, tim breaking news.

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Speaker 7: Is catching everybody by surprise, the FBI arresting NBA.

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Speaker 4: Player Terry Rozier early this morning.

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Speaker 7: In connection with a widespread sports betting investigation.

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Speaker 4: And he's not the only.

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Speaker 1: One we know that that's bad, right, So, like sports

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Speaker 1: gambling is starting to permeate in actual sports. It's like

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Speaker 1: jeopardizing the kind of purity of the game when the

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Speaker 1: sports is supposed to be very merit based. Now you've

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Speaker 1: got the case where like this new phenomenon is causing

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Speaker 1: these players to play differently.

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Speaker 4: It's come up of baseball too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just walk us through some of the baby

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Speaker 1: to Cleveland Guardians.

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Speaker 7: I heard really, yeah, Guardians pitchers Emmanuel class and Luis

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Speaker 7: Ortiz had been charged with fraud, conspiracy, and rigging pitches.

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Speaker 7: Prosecutors said in the indictment that class A and Ortiz

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Speaker 7: through specific pitches for balls so betters could place prop

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Speaker 7: bets in profit.

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Speaker 4: So this is like you're like, you're talking about like

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Speaker 4: sick people like to be voting on a specifically pitch type.

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Speaker 4: It's crazy. But these two pitchers have been indicted for

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Speaker 4: throwing specific pitches, and one of these was in the playoffs,

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Speaker 4: like purposely throwing a type of pitch you know, not

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Speaker 4: for a ball, they purposely like out of the strike

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Speaker 4: zone and having someone you know in connection to them

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Speaker 4: betting on that specific pitch type a lot of money

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Speaker 4: down and you know, getting a lot of money he

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Speaker 4: paid out for being correct on those pitches. And you

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Speaker 4: can say, oh, this is like, you know, what's the

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Speaker 4: big deal? You know, like these pitches didn't change the

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Speaker 4: outcome of a game. Sure, maybe not, but it is

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Speaker 4: like the sort of thing that like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 4: how you start right like you do to really Okay,

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Speaker 4: I'm just gonna throw this one pitch out of the

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Speaker 4: strike zone and then start out this batter not the

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Speaker 4: way I naturally would. But then you start to wonder, Okay,

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Speaker 4: if this is the only thing we caught, what else

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Speaker 4: are you actually doing behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really disturbing because there's clips now circulating of

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Speaker 1: like Terry Rozier like, yeah, putting up some horrific shots

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Speaker 1: or like losing the ball all the time, and in

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Speaker 1: ways that just look a little bit weird.

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Speaker 4: And look he made that. May it may be legitimate, right,

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Speaker 4: maybe like you were just trash today, Yeah, Like these

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Speaker 4: pictures may be like, hey, you just didn't have your

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Speaker 4: stuff today. But now when you find out that, like, oh,

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Speaker 4: there may be something happening here, you start to question

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Speaker 4: on this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what makes it so dangerous because I

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Speaker 1: know people are getting caught now, but I think it

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Speaker 1: is relatively easy to hide your assistance on someone else's bet.

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Speaker 1: There was a clip of Lebron last year where he

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Speaker 1: was like in a postgame interview and he said that

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Speaker 1: some fan was screaming at him that he just needed

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Speaker 1: one more rebound from Lebron, yeah, so his bet could hit.

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Speaker 1: And then Lebron was like, so I just helped him out,

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Speaker 1: jumped up to get a rebound.

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Speaker 4: He definitely yo at me, got my intentions rebound. I'm

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Speaker 4: like what he was like, more so I got one

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Speaker 4: more and I pointed at him to acknowledge that I

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Speaker 4: was listening.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of like a funny moment, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but like underneath the surface, it's like, oh, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of dark. Yeah, all right, So we know that sports

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Speaker 1: betting has invaded the sports infrastructure in such a way

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Speaker 1: that is detrimental to the purity of the game. But

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Speaker 1: I am curious. It made me think about, like, what

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Speaker 1: if a player is betting on him or herself to

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Speaker 1: do well? M what if Lebron can bet on himself

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Speaker 1: to score, you know, thirty points? Should should that be allowed?

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Speaker 1: Because it it incentivizes him.

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Speaker 4: Exactly to do well.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious, like what the pros and cons I'm.

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Speaker 5: Trying to think of, you know, I'm trying to make

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Speaker 5: the argument. Of course, that sounds great. Maroone says, Hey,

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Speaker 5: I'm gonna try to score at least twenty points today

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Speaker 5: and if I get.

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Speaker 2: That, I win whatever, two thousand dollars.

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Speaker 5: Like he needs it, whatever, whatever he wants to twenty

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars in the wine cellar.

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Speaker 4: Whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: But the issue, though, I think it's like, if you

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Speaker 5: can do that openly, then it's like, who's to say

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Speaker 5: he's not making a little carve out for his friends

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Speaker 5: on the Celtics who he's playing against.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to make sure, you know, to make sure he

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Speaker 1: does now points.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I'm not gonna block him so hard so I

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Speaker 5: can get a piece of this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 5: It's it seems simple, But then it's like so easily

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Speaker 5: opens it up to anything else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so unless you you all.

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Speaker 5: Have secret bets and some it's some system that then

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Speaker 5: like why are we making it?

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Speaker 4: Like why no, can't be secret, gotta be all out

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Speaker 4: and open. Yeah. So you know, like you want to

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Speaker 4: put all these other odds and stuff on the screen.

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Speaker 4: I want to see what Lebron is betting on himself. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and it's like, you know, there's no more underground. There's

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Speaker 4: no no more underground, you know, get rid of the

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Speaker 4: on it. We're legalizing, you know, like you say legalized drugs,

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Speaker 4: We're gonna legalize sports betting.

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Speaker 2: So like it's just gonna.

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Speaker 4: Just all out in the open. I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: I think about it.

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Speaker 1: Or what if it was as simple as you know,

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Speaker 1: he's only allowed to bet on the Lakers to win,

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Speaker 1: not like necessary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you could pick out what like you know, I

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Speaker 4: think there's ways you could work it out. So you're

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Speaker 4: not getting so specific that like it's altering, like you're

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Speaker 4: saying whether or not somebody's gonna put up a shot

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Speaker 4: or something. But I think about this, like I don't

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Speaker 4: know how it works with contracts and you know, the

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Speaker 4: sports that y'all watch all the other sports besides baseball.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds a degree, watch sports if you call those sports.

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Speaker 4: But like in baseball, right, especially with say someone has

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Speaker 4: kind of like an off year, or they're injured to what,

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Speaker 4: or there'll be incentives that like, hey, in this contract,

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Speaker 4: if you start a certain amount of games, if you

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Speaker 4: win whatever award, if you you know, get a certain

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Speaker 4: amount of strikeouts or home runs, whatever, you'll get a

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Speaker 4: bonus added to your contract. Exactly. How is that so

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Speaker 4: different than betting? Right, Like, if someone because this has

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Speaker 4: come up where it's like someone may have let's say,

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Speaker 4: you know, a pitcher needs you know, one hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty innings to get that contract clause, and they have

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Speaker 4: one hundred and forty nine and it's the last game

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Speaker 4: of the season, and the manager is like, do I

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Speaker 4: got Do I take this guy out or give him?

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Speaker 4: Do I give him another pitch?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: And people start the second guess like, oh, they took

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Speaker 4: himut because they didn't want to pay that out. You know.

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Speaker 4: So like that sort of stuff does happen.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point. I mean that happens in football

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Speaker 1: all the time, where let's say there's a wide receiver

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Speaker 1: who needs one more touchdown to like trigger some clause

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Speaker 1: in his contract.

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Speaker 4: Do you drop up a play knowing that and then you.

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Speaker 1: Know, if it's a substantial amount of money, could you

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Speaker 1: then talk to the guy on the other team, like

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Speaker 1: who's covering you? Be like, hey, I thirty some of this.

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Speaker 1: If you let me get you, let me get this touch.

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Speaker 4: Games out of hand, let me catch Yeah, I'm gonna.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about performance bonuses, that them being similar

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Speaker 1: to you know, betting on yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess those are long term goals.

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Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, like you can't do it every game.

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Speaker 5: I think the per game ones is I think scary

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Speaker 5: or like, I think that's a bad, bad hole to

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Speaker 5: go down.

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Speaker 1: Because then even if we decide it's ethically okay, it's

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Speaker 1: still I think affects the like sanctity of the game.

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Speaker 1: Where like, let's say Lebron James is allowed to bet

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Speaker 1: on the Lakers to win, he might be making different

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Speaker 1: decisions at the end of that game than he would have.

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Speaker 1: He might feel like, oh my god, the only way

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Speaker 1: we're gonna win is if I take this last shot instead.

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Speaker 3: Who cares?

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Speaker 4: Who cares that the team?

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Speaker 1: I guess Yeah, I just mean it's it changes the

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Speaker 1: dynamic a little bit.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess I think I think it should be

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Speaker 5: more for either full games or more team based than

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Speaker 5: individual based.

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Speaker 4: I think once we're.

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Speaker 5: Doing this individual stuff, that's when you're gonna get kind

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Speaker 5: of the more selfish play from maybe players who aren't

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Speaker 5: Lebron who can Maybe.

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Speaker 1: People are egos that are bigger than so.

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Speaker 5: I think it's like, yeah, if the Detroit Pistons say, hey,

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Speaker 5: we're gonna try to win sixty games this year and

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Speaker 5: Kate Cunningham wants to bet on that, that seems fine

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Speaker 5: to me because he wants to win.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can see your concern that you were

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Speaker 1: saying earlier with essentially it opens the door to maybe

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Speaker 1: working with some other team to let there's just too

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Speaker 1: many to let them perform a certain.

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Speaker 2: Unknown unknowns, as Donald Rumsild would say.

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Speaker 1: Too many unknown unknowns. This is just like the war

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Speaker 1: in Iraq. Well, the good news for us is going

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Speaker 1: to learn a lot more about this with our guest today,

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Speaker 1: Danny Funt. Danny is the author of Everybody Loses The

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Speaker 1: Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk to him right after this break. All right, we

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Speaker 1: are back, and we're joined by Danny Funt, the author

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Speaker 1: of Everybody Loses, The tumultuous Rise of American sports gambling,

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Speaker 1: which happens to be exactly what we were just talking about. Wow, Danny,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 3: What's up man? Thanks for having me on first.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask if you could briefly walk

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Speaker 1: us through just the history of sports betting in the

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Speaker 1: US in general. I know there were some kind of

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Speaker 1: big sports betting controversies I think in the twenties, thirties, forties,

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Speaker 1: and fifties. If you could just walk us through that,

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Speaker 1: how did we get here today?

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Speaker 3: There's been betting on sports since there have been organized

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Speaker 3: sports in America, even going back to like the very

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Speaker 3: first baseball games in New York City eighteen fifties. It

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Speaker 3: was such a big part of why people cared about

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Speaker 3: baseball in the first place that the New York Times

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Speaker 3: wrote an editorial that said, we can't even think of

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Speaker 3: this as a national pastime because, as they put it,

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Speaker 3: it's a contrivance for gambling. And then the National League

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Speaker 3: was created in large part to rid the game of

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Speaker 3: gambling because it felt like it was corrupting the sport

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Speaker 3: and putting off a lot of prospective fans. And then

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Speaker 3: that leads us to the Black Sox scandal in nineteen nineteen.

439
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 3: You probably know about that, eight players on the Chicago

440
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 3: White Sox colluding with gamblers to fix the World Series,

441
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 3: and the Commissioner of Baseball was established after that specifically

442
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: to get gambling out of baseball. There were scandals basically

443
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 3: every decade, most notoriously in college men's basketball in like

444
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties, getting caught up with mob people

445
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 3: who wanted them to fix games. And all of that

446
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 3: brings us to two when the leagues lobbied Congress to

447
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 3: officially ban sports betting outside Nevada, where it had been

448
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: legal since about the fifties, and then that law was

449
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 3: struck down in twenty eighteen, and things were often running

450
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 3: from there as far as states legalizing sports betting.

451
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: And what was kind of the sports betting environment so

452
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: to speak in the fifties and sixties. I know there

453
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: were some of those, like specific scandals, but how did

454
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: like your average American get involved with that?

455
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 3: So in Nevada, as I said, they had a legal

456
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: book making infrastructure, but it was really an afterthought and

457
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 3: it was mainly just to draw to get people into casinos,

458
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 3: and it remained that way honestly to today. Like in

459
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 3: the casino business, sports betting is almost a rounding error,

460
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 3: like it's really just yet another thing, you know, along

461
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 3: with restaurants and other gimmicks to get people to come

462
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 3: in and then go to the blackjack tables and the

463
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 3: slot machines. Were they really make money. In the rest

464
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 3: of the country, it was largely mob run, which is

465
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: why you might have heard of the Kofaver Commission, which

466
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 3: was this massive congressional inquiry in the fifties that looked

467
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: into how gambling was funding the mob. And this senator

468
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 3: from I think Tennessee made it a huge TV attraction,

469
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 3: these congressional hearings where they would bring in gang leaders

470
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: to testify about how much they were taking in bets.

471
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: And that was the first time a lot of Americans

472
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 3: even heard the word mafia, and it led It led

473
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 3: the Kennedy administration to push for a number of laws

474
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 3: that made it officially illegal, and.

475
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: Then, of course, the mafia responded by killing John F.

476
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: Kennedy right right. A fun historical fact, the guy who

477
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 3: invented the point spread was I think JFK's elementary school teacher.

478
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, go to the top.

479
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah.

480
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: But after nineteen ninety two, you basically could not bet

481
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: on sports unless you travel to Nevada? Is that true?

482
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: Or you had a bookie?

483
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, And just for the audience, like, describe what

484
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: a bookie is? How like how was that allowed or

485
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: is it it wasn't It was like under the table.

486
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: Totally under the table everywhere but Nevada. And basically that's

487
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 3: someone who you know will take your bet on a game,

488
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: is probably only against the point spread. Maybe they took

489
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: over unders on the point total, and they're kind of

490
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 3: writing numbers down in a book, hence the name bookmaker,

491
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: and you know, hopefully paying you if you win. Most

492
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: of that's done on credit. You're not like handing the

493
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: money and saying, you know, pay me back if I win.

494
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: It's it's the honor system, which is why knees get

495
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 3: busted and thumbs get you know, chopped off if you're

496
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 3: not paying. But yeah, that was a pretty big business.

497
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 3: I remember there was a book maker in Nevada who

498
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: was I think it was a Sports Illustrated article where

499
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: they were talking about, you know, trying to figure out

500
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 3: the size of the illegal sports betting industry in like

501
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 3: the middle twentieth century. And this guy was like, I

502
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: know of a town in Wisconsin that has thirteen thousand

503
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: people and two book makers. So just think about you know,

504
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: if like a middle of nowhere town in Wisconsin has

505
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 3: two bookies, it probably suggested there were a ton of

506
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 3: them across the country.

507
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. That kind of leads me to my next question.

508
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: Like when I bet on a game today, I'll open

509
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: the app and it'll and I'll bet on whatever the

510
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: Lakers to win, and it'll say plus two hundred. And

511
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: I understand that that means if I bet one hundred dollars,

512
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: I'll win two hundred. But where the hell do they

513
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: get that number from? Who actually is responsible for providing

514
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: the odds on a given sports match.

515
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 3: That's an important point because we still say colloquially like

516
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: Vegas thinks, you know, Vegas thinks the Seahawks are a

517
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 3: three point favorite. It really almost has nothing to do

518
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: with what anyone in Vegas thinks. It's an aggregation of

519
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 3: worldwide betting trends. And usually when they'll open with numbers.

520
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: They're basing it on betting markets in like Asia and

521
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: other parts of the world that might be ahead of us,

522
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 3: just on the time difference, and then going from there,

523
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 3: and then the numbers get sharpened, mainly by the bets

524
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: that you see coming in from professional gamblers. A lot

525
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: of bookmaking is just responding to what these sharp betters

526
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 3: are doing and then massaging the numbers accordingly. It's not

527
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: like a genius odds maker who posts a number and

528
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: then takes on all these different people and you know

529
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 3: it's trying to outsmart them. It's it's the wisdom of crowds,

530
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: as it's sometimes said.

531
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: And people would say colloquially Vegas because those bookies were

532
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: normally in Vegas before the Supreme Court action.

533
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of these companies, you know, based

534
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 3: in Vegas, whether it's Caesars or MGM or what have you.

535
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: So then what is the format of that business? How

536
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: exactly do they make money? Like I know how I

537
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: lose money to them, but like what is what's the

538
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: structure exactly?

539
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 3: So the simple answer is they bake an edge into

540
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 3: the odds so that they win no matter what. And

541
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: there's complexity to that. But basically it's the reason why

542
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 3: if you bet twenty bucks on both sides of a bet,

543
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: it's not going to be a wash, right, You're going

544
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: to lose a certain amount, and that certain amount is

545
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: roughly what the sports book is making. It's complicated because

546
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: there's a common misconception that the art of bookmaking is

547
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: posting odds or spread or whatever that's going to attract

548
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: fifty percent money on both sides, and then you get

549
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 3: the vig that house edge that I just mentioned, and

550
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: that's how they make money. They're really not going for

551
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty. They're going for on the side of

552
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: the professional gamblers, but posting a number that's gonna get

553
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 3: a lot of money on both sides. But the sportsbook

554
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: wants to basically bet on the side of the sharps

555
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: because they're right more often than not. And if that happens,

556
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 3: then they're gonna the house is gonna win even more

557
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: than that edge that they bake into the odds. So

558
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: gets a little complicated, but that's the business. It's not like,

559
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 3: let's figure out what's gonna get half and half on

560
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: both sides.

561
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna ask if you could clarify a

562
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: little bit about the vig. Okay, the Lakers and Celtics

563
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: are playing, and I bet twenty dollars on each of

564
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: them to win, I'm gonna win twenty dollars, right.

565
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: So you're gonna see minus one ten typically on both sides.

566
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: So if you bet one hundred and ten dollars and

567
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: you win, you make a hundred. If you bet one

568
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: hundred and ten and lose, obviously you get nothing, So

569
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: that ten bucks the difference there is the thig, right.

570
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: So typically it's why in order to beat those sorts

571
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: of bets and make money, you have to win about

572
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: fifty two and a half percent of the time because

573
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: if you just won fifty to fifty, the house has

574
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 3: that edge and they're going to beat you, and it's

575
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: really really hard. It's really hard to win more than

576
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: half your bets. Conversely, if you think about it, it's

577
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: really hard to lose more than half your bets if

578
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: you're betting those types of straight bets.

579
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: That's what I tell my wife. In your book, you

580
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: interviewed and talked to a lot of people who have influence.

581
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: I think at some of these companies like FanDuel and DraftKings,

582
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: like what did you learn from talking to them about

583
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: how about like the average Americans relationship to sports betting

584
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: and how they try to recruit more people into it.

585
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: There was a bunch because some of it I think

586
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: is pretty sinister, and I definitely wanted to get into

587
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: that of some of the predatory tactics they're doing. But

588
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 3: some of it also was just interesting to me of

589
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: how this business actually works. There was someone who was

590
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: in like marketing insights at FanDuel, and she told me

591
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: a bunch of things that I found really interesting. One

592
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: was that people are always thinking like there's so many

593
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: ads that must turn off a lot of people because

594
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 3: they're like, I just can't stand seeing all these fandel ads.

595
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 3: I'm never gonna give them my business. And she said,

596
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: from their research, that's not true at all. No matter

597
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: how much you hate a company's advertising, it doesn't stop

598
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: you from patronizing them. So that's instructive. But another thing

599
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: she said that was interesting was although these companies like

600
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: to brand sports betting as this social activity and you

601
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: know this idea of like you know, all me, me

602
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: and my buddies like gather and replace our bets, and

603
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: that's like a way that we socialize around sports. Based

604
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: on her research, a lot of people are doing it

605
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: when they're alone and they don't like to talk about

606
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 3: they don't like to talk about their betting because they're

607
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: kind of embarrassed about it, that it's this thing they

608
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: do to like liven up a boring night alone. And

609
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 3: I mean I do that, you know sometimes, So I'm

610
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: not here to judge, but I think that's maybe maybe

611
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: a huge percentage of this business is people like that.

612
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's an interesting dynamic. When sports betting

613
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: it was legalized in New York, like me and some buddies,

614
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: I think I noticed that we were socializing more often

615
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: than we were before, and part of me was like, oh,

616
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: this is kind of nice that, like, you know, in

617
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: what so many people are calling a male loneliness epidemic,

618
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: we're kind of like we've got this like discord channel

619
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: now and we're hanging out. But you know, I think

620
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: it's very easy to see how that turns sour because

621
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: sometimes I see people who are just really deep in it,

622
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: like really addicted to trying to make their money back

623
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: for sure.

624
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: And also think about a lot of states legalized, including

625
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: New York during COVID so people were extra isolated and

626
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: bored and like doing anything, you know, baking, sour now

627
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: and sports.

628
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, what are some of the more predatory behaviors

629
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: that these companies are engaging in to keep me on

630
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: the app?

631
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: I'll get into some of the messed up ones, but

632
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: one that I I find interesting that I think you

633
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 3: and your listeners might too, is maybe not as predatory,

634
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: but it's just a it's a counter argument to this

635
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: idea that sports betting just enhances fandom, which is an

636
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: argument you hear the leagues make. It's like this just

637
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: makes you extra locked in as a fan. It's just

638
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: taking an interest you already have and like putting it

639
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 3: on steroids. And I remember talking to this guy at

640
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: a company called simple Bet, which creates these so called

641
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: micro bets, which are like bets on a shrunken down

642
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: time frame, like will the next pitch in a baseball

643
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: game be a ball or a strike? In a football game,

644
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: you know, will they score a touchdown, pund get a

645
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: field goal, whatever. And he was telling me that when

646
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: they're setting the odds on those bets, they do what's

647
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: called shading, which is they recognize that fans have a

648
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: bias to overestimate the likelihood of positive outcomes, Like if

649
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: you're watching a football game, you're you're gonna overestimate the

650
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: odds that a team scores in a given possession, right,

651
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: either just because you're rooting for them, or it's nice

652
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: to think that the good thing is going to happen,

653
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: And so the payouts on those bets are less than

654
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 3: if you're betting for the negative thing to happen. So

655
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: basically they're taking the inherent optimism that comes with being

656
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: a fan and using that against you so that you

657
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: make less money if you bet on optimistic things. And

658
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: I just I heard that and I was like that

659
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: that's really shrewd from a business standpoint, But it totally

660
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: goes against this idea that betting is just like, you know,

661
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: encouraging people to be fans, because they're basically using your

662
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 3: fandom as a vulnerability to make more money off of.

663
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: But as far as as far as the predatory stuff goes,

664
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: I think one is these enticements that dangle what sounds

665
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 3: like free money, and then you read the fine print

666
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: you're like, this is not free money at all. Furthest

667
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: thing from it. Whether it was no sweat bets, but

668
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: sometimes advertised really enormous dollar figures like you know, three

669
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: thousand dollars risk free bet or no sweat bet. Risk

670
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 3: free was like the term of art for a while,

671
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: and then they realized that was just even two outrageous

672
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: for betting companies, so they dialed it back to no sweat,

673
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: which really conveys the same thing, which is, you don't

674
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: have any reason to worry that you're going to lose

675
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: this money, and that couldn't be further from the truth,

676
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: and that's a gigantic bummer to people when they figure

677
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: that out.

678
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like no sweat. If you bet twenty

679
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: five dollars on this and you lose, we'll give you

680
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: twenty five dollars in the app that you can you

681
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: can't withdraw. You can only use it on another bet

682
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: which you are likely to lose.

683
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 3: And you know, if you bet twenty five bucks, let's

684
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 3: say you bet twenty five bucks on an overwhelming favorite,

685
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: you might win twenty five plus two dollars, Like you

686
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: get your twenty five back and then the two. In

687
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: the case of those free bets, you don't get the

688
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: steak of the bet bet. You would only get the

689
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 3: two bucks, you're really down twenty three bucks. And I've

690
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: I made this mistake when I was in New York

691
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: and like an idiot about these promotions, and a lot

692
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 3: of people did as well, where they're like, Okay, if

693
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: I lose my no sweat or risk free bet, I'm

694
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: just going to bet it on favorites and have a

695
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 3: really high chance of you know, coming back. Even does

696
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 3: not work that way.

697
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 5: When sports betting became legalized, I remember states were talking

698
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: about this, will you know, be an influx of you know,

699
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 5: money for the state. Has Now that it's been a

700
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 5: few years, has that kind of come to fruition, Like

701
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 5: are states actually making money off this too, or is

702
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 5: it kind of marginal or do you have any insight

703
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 5: on that it's.

704
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 3: Mostly a drop in the bucket, Like it does not

705
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: solve their budget problems at all. New York is a

706
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: slight exception just because they get away with taxing online

707
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 3: sports betting at fifty one percent, which is way way

708
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 3: higher than the rest of the country. And these companies

709
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: feel like, how could they not operate in New York?

710
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: You know, it's what the bulls is and where they're

711
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 3: baded to just be insane not to, but they're being

712
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: taxed through the roof. So New York has generated almost

713
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: half of all the tax revenue on sports betting in

714
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: the country.

715
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 4: We should.

716
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like a third event.

717
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: And for a lot of the country it's it's like,

718
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: you know, it's a trivial amount of money. And then

719
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: the other side of that is like they make it

720
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: sound like it's just found money, like they you know,

721
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 3: struck oil or something, but people aren't spending that money

722
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 3: on other things, you know, or they don't or they're

723
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: not investing it, or they have health problems now, or

724
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 3: like you know, debt that people need to deal with,

725
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: and that's a that's a cost on the other end.

726
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: So I think people when people start studying that holistic

727
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: picture of this, it's going to be pretty bleak for

728
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 3: that argument.

729
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some of the other social costs we've

730
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: seen from this proliferation of sports because I saw I

731
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: read in an article I think that domestic violence, for example,

732
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: has increased since twenty eighteen when this was all allowed

733
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: to happen. Curious about that and like any other negative

734
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: effects that we've seen.

735
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's study. I wish I remember the College to

736
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: shout them up, but it was so dark it was

737
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 3: I think they looked at with the home football team

738
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: wins or loses in states with or without legal sports betting,

739
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 3: and in places where it's legal, and then the home

740
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 3: team loses, domestic violence incidents were demonstrably higher than in

741
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: places where it's illegal.

742
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I found that that is University of Oregon.

743
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: They found that when a professional football team has an

744
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 4: unexpected loss, intimate partner violence and its home market can

745
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 4: increase by ten percent.

746
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 3: While one of the things that I find just so

747
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 3: upsetting and scary is the amount of abuse that athletes

748
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 3: are getting from enraged gamblers. Now I lead my book

749
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: off of that, just because to me, it's one of

750
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: the strongest examples of how things are totally different now.

751
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 3: Even if people used to bet, you know, under the table,

752
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: the fact that they're betting so easily and so much

753
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: on so many different things is creating a lot of

754
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: new problems. And the online abuse that they get is

755
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: just grotesque and relentless. I remember Jalen Brunson on the

756
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 3: Knicks was like, I think this was with the athletic

757
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: He's like, think of the worst stuff you might think

758
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: we're hearing, and it's way worse than that. But then

759
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: it goes way beyond that sort of harassment, where you

760
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 3: know athletes have been stocked at their team hotel or

761
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: at their home.

762
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 4: JB.

763
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 3: Bickerstaff, the Pistons coach, said people were texting his personal

764
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 3: cell phone that they knew the identities of his kids

765
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 3: and where he lives. The manager of the Padres just

766
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: resigned last season in part because he was so exhausted

767
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: from all these death threats. And like there's there've also

768
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 3: been people arrested for like really credible death threats to

769
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: getting athletes when they lost a bet. And I just

770
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: think inevitably someone's going to try to kill someone. And

771
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: I heard that from the former chief security officer of

772
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: the NFL, who, as he put it's only a matter

773
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: of time before there's a gambling related murder. That's just

774
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 3: super grim to think about. But yeah, when we talk

775
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 3: about what would actually have to happen for lawmakers to say,

776
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: you know, enough is enough, this is way out of control,

777
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 3: I think that would be on that list.

778
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

779
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about being a fan of sports,

780
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: there's like an emotional stake you have in it. But

781
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: then once that is converted into a financial stake, you

782
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: can easily see people kind of going down the wrong path.

783
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: But okay, so we talked about like how this has

784
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: been affecting athletes and managers. I am curious too about

785
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: the betters themselves, Like are people we of course know

786
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: they answer to this question, but are people being responsible

787
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: or are they spending money they shouldn't be spending? Like,

788
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: is there any data about, you know, how how like

789
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: the better is has been affected?

790
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like the industry always says, you know, oh,

791
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: the majority of people bet and they have no issue

792
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: and it's just something they do now. It's like, no

793
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: different than spending money to go to a movie. I

794
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 3: think there's studies. Of course that's true and on a

795
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: simplistic level, but there's studies that indicate a lot more

796
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: people are betting more than they wish they were than

797
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: you might think. So there was one study that found

798
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: that a third of people who bet on sports have

799
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 3: felt ashamed after the fact that how much money they lost.

800
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: Oh god, Half of people who bet concede that they're

801
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 3: not honest with family and friends about how much they're

802
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: losing and how often they're betting. Even just like the

803
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 3: amount being lost. I remember DraftKings in one of their

804
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 3: quarterly earnings reports, the average customer loses more than one

805
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: hundred bucks a month, which you know, on average, that's

806
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: a lot. If you're losing hundred dollars yeah a year,

807
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: and the amount that you have to bet to lose

808
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 3: that much is a ton. So I think it's designed

809
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 3: to get you to bet more than you intended. A

810
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: moment ago, I told you about that executive who crafts

811
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 3: these micro bets and was talking about shading. Let's say

812
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 3: someone's okay betting fifty dollars pregame, if they're betting constantly

813
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: during the game, they might bet ten dollars ten times

814
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 3: and then look up and be like, oh, I just

815
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 3: bet twice as much as I intended. And this guy

816
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 3: was like, yes, exactly, that's the goal. That's what we're

817
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: going for. And yeah, I mean it's again like, from

818
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 3: a business standpoint, it makes total sense, but from a

819
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 3: customer safety standpoint, it's problematic.

820
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 4: For sure.

821
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the legalization of sports betting was

822
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: a mistake.

823
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 3: I think the way they went about it is undoubtedly

824
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 3: a mistake, and too often this gets boiled down to

825
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 3: like prohibition or legalization with no guardrails, and there's so

826
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: much in between. It would be pretty hard to defend

827
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 3: the manner through which so many states decided to do this.

828
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 3: For one simple reason, among others, is they were often

829
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 3: completely oblivious to what could have been learned if you

830
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: looked at the UK and elsewhere in Europe and Australia

831
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 3: and other places that have had sports betting for a

832
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: while and have had arguments and dealt with the fallout

833
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: from all the things we've been talking about, you know,

834
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 3: misleading ads, excessive ads in general, types of bets that

835
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 3: encourage compulsive behavior, on and on. Those are all tired

836
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 3: arguments in a lot of elsewhere in the world, and

837
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: they've had to learn the hard way that you shouldn't

838
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 3: allow that stuff, and they had to reregulate after a while.

839
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 3: And from my reporting, it sounds like Americans just paid

840
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: no attention whatsoever to that when they were writing their laws.

841
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 3: It was like, this is this grand American experiment. We're

842
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 3: going to figure things out as we go. And I

843
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: guess that's pretty typical this country to just be completely

844
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 3: arrogant and oblivious that way. But there was so much

845
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 3: that was ignored that would have informed these laws in

846
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: a pretty profound way.

847
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: So before we let you go, we earlier were having

848
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: a very brief debate about whether it would be okay

849
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: for athletes to bet on themselves to excel, So like,

850
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: would it be okay for Lebron James, for example, to

851
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: bet on the Lakers to win, because technically that would

852
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: only incentivize him to, you know, play better. Just curious

853
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: your own thoughts that you see any kind of pitfalls

854
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: with after one hour of talking about how terrible this is.

855
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 3: I mean, the risk would be it's hard to stop

856
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: at betting on yourself, and then they just start betting

857
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 3: on everything, and that's where they get into trouble. But

858
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: if we're just being like purely intellectual about it, I

859
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 3: don't think there's anything wrong with betting on yourself to

860
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 3: win if there's no caveats. I'm pretty sure. I hope

861
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: I don't get this wrong. I'm pretty sure fighters are

862
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: allowed to bet on themselves to win outright, but they

863
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 3: can't bet on like I'm gonna win after the eighth round.

864
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 3: And I remember for the I think it was the

865
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: Mayweather Jake Paul fight. Mayweather tried to bet On like

866
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna win in the seventh round, and they were like,

867
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 3: absolutely not.

868
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: Because he could totally effect he could play with him

869
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: for six rounds and then knock him out.

870
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think he did.

871
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you so much for joining us, Danny.

872
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: This was illuminating my pleasure.

873
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

874
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: All right, we're back on Manny Noah, and we just

875
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: had a conversation with Danny Funt about the sports gambling world.

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00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: One takeaway. One thing I found interesting. I would have

877
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: assumed that sports betting what was actually a big chunk

878
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: of the gambling industry, but Danny was saying, it's basically

879
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: a way to get people interested in more classic versions

880
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: of gambling like roulette and blackjack and craps and all that.

881
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.

882
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 5: I mean those are obviously more time consuming in a

883
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 5: way mm hm. So I can see once you get

884
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 5: in there, you're going to be really in there. Versus

885
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 5: the sports spending. It's it is relatively easy to dip

886
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 5: your toe in.

887
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, and if you.

888
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 5: Only follow maybe one sport and maybe only one team,

889
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 5: maybe you're only doing it a little bit.

890
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: That's at first at least, but.

891
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 4: Should think about. I don't know if y'all have gamblers

892
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 4: in your life, like family members who like are obsessed

893
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 4: with the casino. But people lose a lot of money

894
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 4: when they have a casino in a way that would

895
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: be very hard gambling on your phone to lose, Like

896
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 4: people will go and lose thousands of dollars, you know,

897
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 4: like spending a day or two in a casino.

898
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 5: You're not going from there and spending ten dollars. Yeah,

899
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 5: that's what I did when I went to Atlantic City.

900
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 5: But that's me, Yeah, most ready to spend spending country money.

901
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 5: So there's probably maybe there's a scale.

902
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 4: It's not as easy you know, to get as many

903
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 4: people in the door as a casino, you know, as

904
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 4: opposed to your phone, But you're going to people who

905
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 4: get in the door big spenders.

906
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: They're spending like as if they're ten sports gamblers.

907
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

908
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 5: At the right the thing of like solutions if like, okay,

909
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 5: we're too far gone on this, how do we pull

910
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 5: back or put in guardrails?

911
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: It's like one thing.

912
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, well, like having to go somewhere in

913
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 5: person to bet on sports or anything is a big difference.

914
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 5: Then I'm in my basement. You know, my family's upstairs

915
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 5: and I'm just watching.

916
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: I would literally never be It's like it would change

917
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: it so much trying to go somewhere to do it. Yeah,

918
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: that would immediately curb the activity. And I think, yeah,

919
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: just in terms of like guardrails, you know, ask someone

920
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: who does enjoy like here and there throwing like the

921
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: cost of a couple of you know, lattes on a sports.

922
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 4: A vague alcoholic drink day.

923
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: That's more accurate in instead of buying like a cocktail,

924
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: I might throw that on a on the game. I

925
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: think one way to kind of reel this back a

926
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: little bit would be to only allow people to bet

927
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,959
Speaker 1: on the outcome of a game, like.

928
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: Who is always simplifying stuff.

929
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: Who's gonna win the game? That's the only thing you're

930
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: allowed to bet on. You can bet as much as

931
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: you want on that. But this whole thing with like

932
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: the really intricate, nuanceding, Yeah, that that kind of stuff

933
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: is what I think get trapped.

934
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 4: So there is a story recently about Russell Westbrook's wife

935
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 4: got a email threat saying like I hope you die

936
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 4: or something over over someone who's betting on her husband.

937
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: That is so terrible. I mean, yeah, you see every

938
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 1: day Kevin Durantz on Twitter fighting some guy who needed

939
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: him to get an extra rebound. The idea that this

940
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: is so such a big part of your life that

941
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 1: you need to go confront the person who has inadvertently

942
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: lost you money is really bleak.

943
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: Damn someone betting on him is respectfully.

944
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: He's He's no such thing. As a production of Kaleidoscope Content.

945
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatzekador. The

946
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph.

947
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: The theme and credit songs are by me Manny, and

948
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: the mixing was done by Steve Bone. Thank you to

949
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: our guest Danny Funch, the author of Everybody Loses The

950
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. You can find that

951
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: book in the link in our bio. Visit No Such

952
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: Thing dot Show to subscribe to our newsletter, and if

953
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: you have feedback for us or a question, our email

954
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: is Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com. See you

955
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: next week.

956
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 6: He's He's no such thing.