1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murder requires specific intent. It 2 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: can be implied or specific, but there must be intent 3 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: to do the act. But what about a recent spate 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: of murders committed while the killer is sound asleep, And 5 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: believe it or not, some jurdars are actually buying it. 6 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Am I understanding this? A 7 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: jury actually equits someone of murder because they claim that 8 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: they slept. Walk through the entire or deal. First of all, 9 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. They are not in the 10 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: one with her head. There's something going on with a 11 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: young boy and my son in law. We need help. 12 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: We need andrans and police please, okay, we'll have a 13 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: dearly emergency. There's a young boy and my grandson four 14 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: years old. We can't wake him up. The father is 15 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: rocked up in a room. We don't know what's going on. 16 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: Everybody's screaming. Wow, that must be some sound sleeper because 17 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: everybody is screaming and daddy's still asleep. Listen to a 18 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: little bit more of that. Nine mone call and tell 19 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's up 20 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: there screaming. So her husband is in a in his study. 21 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: He can't. He won't come out. And now there's a 22 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: young boy, his son, four years old. We can't wake 23 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: him up. Okay, and I don't know what's going on. 24 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: We need an emergency as fast as possible. Yes, down, 25 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: that follows me. Okay, I will have information for you. 26 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: Someone else is going to get him on the way. Okay, 27 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: is it your grandson? My grandson is twenty years old. 28 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: My daughters trying to break into a door. We don't 29 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: know if he's alive or not alive. Well, I can 30 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: answer that much. He's dead. The four year old little 31 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: boy is dad. You can hear screaming and wailing in 32 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the background. With me an all star panel to break 33 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: you down and put it back together again. But first 34 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: of all, let me ask Cheryl McCollum, director of the 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, joining US forensics expert. The defense says, 36 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: daddy's asleep. Hold on, Cheryl, Satellite down Christy, Missouri with 37 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: me Emmy Award winning investigative reporter Christie. Is that correct? Well, 38 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, if you'd like to believe the defense team, 39 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: that's what they're claiming, sleep walking, right, But these are 40 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: some tragic tales to this evening in fact, it's the 41 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: daughter Alexa has had to fight her father off. This 42 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: is just almost too much for me to take in. Guys, 43 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: let me finish introducing our panel with me Doctor Mark R. Pressman, 44 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: sleep and Scientific evidence specialist Pressman Sleep and Science Forensics 45 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: dot com and author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable 46 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence and FYI. He's an expert on many of 47 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: these sleepwalking cases. James Shellnutt twenty seven years on law enforcement, 48 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Police Force, now lawyer. You can find him at shelnut 49 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: Lawfirm dot com. Doctor jen Mann therapist host on VH one. 50 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: She's the host of Doctor Jen Show on series x 51 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: sim She's an author of The Relationship Fix. Wow. I 52 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: don't have enough paper to give you her resume, but 53 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: doctor jen Man Therapist is joining us, as I said earlier. 54 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute, let me know 55 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: when her satellite issue it is up. You missed your 56 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: first question, Cheryl, if you were in a sleep Cheryl McCollum, 57 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert 58 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. I can't wait to hear what he's 59 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: got to say about this. He's a medical examiner for 60 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida, and you can find him 61 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: at pathcaremed dot com. And I already went to ire 62 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winner Investigative Reporter Christy Missouri, President of Successful 63 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: Strategies PR and Crisis Communications, and I would call this 64 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: a crisis. Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if you could 65 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: hear us. We could not hear you. But I just 66 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: played part of a nine one one call, and just 67 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: for you, Cheryl, I'm gonna play it again. Take a 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: listen to this nine one one call. I'm not on 69 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: a one week. There's something going on with a young 70 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We 71 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: need angelis and police. Please, okay, we'll have a dearly emergency. 72 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: Did a young boy and my grandson all years old. 73 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is rocked up 74 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming 75 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: and more than I'm all in call please Jack and 76 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's 77 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: up there screaming, so her husband is in a in 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: his study. He can't he won't come out. And now 79 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: there's a young boy, his son four years old. We 80 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: can't wake him up, okay, and I don't know what's 81 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: going on. We need to emergency as fast as possible. Yes, 82 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: down that hollow is me? Okay, I will have information 83 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: for you. Someone else is going to get him on 84 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: the way. Okay there. How old is your is this 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter's 86 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: trying to break into a door. We don't know if 87 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: he's alive or not alive. Stay on the phone. Are 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: you kidding me? Uh, Cheryl Mccollumy, he needs to go 89 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: break that door down. You hear screaming and wailing in 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the background. Cheryl McCollum. I'm gonna go to Christy, Missouri 91 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: in just a moment for all the facts. But are 92 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: you buying this? Are you actually buying this that the 93 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: peer is asleep? He needs to break the door down, 94 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: And no, I don't believe he's asleep. You can hear 95 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: everybody in that house screaming and having a fit and 96 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: calling for more help, and he's going to sleep through it. 97 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I mean, Cheryl, as you know, 98 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: I have slept walked, I sleep talk, I sleep walk, 99 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: but it doesn't take a lot to wake me up. 100 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: I don't get very far. It's my point. I just 101 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe you can go in 102 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: a room, lock the door, murder your four year old 103 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: child while everybody's still trying to bam the door down 104 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: and screaming, and you sleep through it all. To Christy Missourich, 105 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: investigative reporter and president of Successful Strategies PR in Crisis Communications, 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: let me just start with this case. Start at the beginning, 107 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: pick it up at the nine on one call. What happened? 108 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: So it all starts with the daughter blasting into the 109 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: peri bedroom saying, you know mommy, hello, wa wait how 110 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: old is the daughter? Wait a minute, wait a minute? 111 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: How old is the daughter? Mid teens? Right, he has 112 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: two older children and a tenure. Okay, So the team 113 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: girl blast in into her parents' bedroom, okay, saying, Mommy, 114 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: help us, help us, daddy's trying to hurt us. She 115 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: tells police that her dad came into her room that 116 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: night wearing a Halloween mask. No no, no, no, wait 117 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: wait wait wait yes, stop everything. Did you hear that, Jackie? 118 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Okay? Wearing a Halloween mask? It 119 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: will be a cold day in h double l that 120 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: I believe this guy slept through finding a Halloween mask. 121 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: First of all, right, there, how am I going to 122 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: find a Halloween costume that's not gonna happen until next 123 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: Halloween at Spirit Halloween dot com? And I go out 124 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: and buy one. The lord knows where Halloween costume is, 125 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: but he gets a Halloween costume and puts the mask 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: on around his head. Correct, Okay, I just wanted to 127 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: make sure I understood that. Go ahead, Chrissy Missouri. I 128 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what happens next. So she's asleep. 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: She's asleep, and she wakes up days and confused to 130 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: her dad on top of her, wearing a Halloween mask, 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: pushing her head between her bed and a what do 132 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: you mean? On top of her? On top of her 133 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: to molest her, on top of her, to kill her, 134 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: to try to smother her, pushing her head between the 135 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: bed and the wall. You know, if your bed's up 136 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: to the corner where the wall meets the joint. He's 137 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: trying to force her head in between the bed and 138 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: the wall, trying to smother her. She passes out. Moments 139 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: later here screams from her brother. She sees her father 140 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: attacking her brother. She bites him tries to rip him 141 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: off of the brother. That's when she goes to get 142 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: her mom. The mom thinks that her husband's having a 143 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: nervous breakdown and is unaware how serious four year old 144 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: Blake's injuries are. That's when the grandpa gets riled up 145 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: and called the police. Now, remember I told you the 146 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: daughter Alexis fights her father off of her brother, and 147 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: the dad takes off Halloween mask and toll and barricades 148 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: himself in the home office. So he leaves the bedroom Christie, Missouri, 149 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: and goes and hides in the home office. That's right, 150 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: that's right. Okay. You know, to doctor Mark R. Pressman, 151 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: sleep scientific evidence Specialist, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and 152 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: Reliable Scientific Evidence, Doctor Pressman, there is no way that 153 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: this guy sleepwalking. I don't care what science may say, 154 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: and you know, I just don't How could he do 155 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: all that and still be asleep? Well, to say that 156 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: he's asleep, it's not exactly true. This is not normal sleep. 157 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: This is sort of a weird mixture between deep sleep 158 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: and waking that occurs because of some problems in the 159 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: brain of sleepwalkers. So so sleepwalkers, he would not expect 160 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: him to act just like anyone else who's asleep. Time 161 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take a listen to our 162 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: friends at w r AL. This is Aaron Hartness. Joseph 163 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: Mitchell is accused of doing something almost unimaginable to most people. 164 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: Deputies believe he suffocated his four year old son, Blake, 165 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: and then stabbed himself multiple times. As Sir Twarren says, 166 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: Mitchell's other two children say they woke up with something 167 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: over their faces and had to fend off their father. 168 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: Lieutenant Stan Harris says at some point during the attack, 169 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: Mitchell's wife ran to another part of the house trying 170 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: to get help for her children. As sirch twarrens says, 171 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: the family was in deep financial trouble and their home 172 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: was about to be seized by a bank. Well that 173 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: played a major role, of minor role, we're just not 174 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 1: a little to say right now. Poor documents say Mitchell's 175 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: wife didn't know the extent of the financial trouble. Sirchwarren's show. 176 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: Investigators took computers from the home along with copies of 177 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: life insurance policies, including policies for all three children. Investigators 178 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: also took a mask and a knife. Hold on, I 179 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: can't write that fast. I need to learn shorthand. But 180 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: what's really jumping out of me, doctor jen Man? A 181 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: wife had no idea about the finances. Why is that 182 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: still happening in twenty twenty one? B I heard the 183 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: word life and sharans connected to policy. All right, so 184 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: and I herd financial troubles. Did you hear all that, 185 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: doctor jen I assure did Nancy. And you would be amazed, 186 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: in this day and age, at how many couples organize 187 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: their finances where one person, usually the person who everyone 188 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: decides is kind of quote unquote better at those things, 189 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: handles them and the other person is in the dark. 190 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: And I always encourage couples that even if one person 191 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: is handling the logistics of actually pressing the button to 192 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 1: send the check or actually literally writing the check, that 193 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: the other persons be involved so they know what's going on. 194 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: But you'd be amazed at how often one partner is 195 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: in the job. And you know, Jackie's over here rolling 196 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: her eyes. Again, let me just say it's not always 197 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: a woman. Do you know my brother with a successful career, 198 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: very successful career, brags he doesn't know how to use 199 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: an ATM and his wife handles all the finances. When 200 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: he says that, I'm so proud of my children they 201 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: just turned thirteen, doctor Jenn, and they all look at 202 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: each other and it's not a secret. I give him 203 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: a lot of grief about it, but it happens. He 204 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: brags he does not know how to use the ATEN. 205 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: I give him fifty cents and tell him to go 206 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: buy some candy. Really, so okay, doctor Jen, that's the 207 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: first thing. But Shela Jim Shellena, twenty seven years Metro 208 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: Major Case Now lawyer, life insurance policy. Did you hear that? 209 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: It was like a siren blaring in my ear? Yeah, 210 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: life insurance policies on the children and the wife, So yeah, 211 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, motive honestly is you know, doesn't 212 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: have to be proven in a case. But when you 213 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: have a case like this where somebody saying, oh I 214 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: didn't mean to do it or it was sleepwalking, being 215 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: able to show a potential motive like this is huge. 216 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: You're in a financial dispair, you're about to lose everything. 217 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: There is a way for you to get this money, 218 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: and it's through a life insurance Paul, I think that 219 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: goes a long way towards helping a jury make a 220 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: decision at least if this irrational jury. And to you 221 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher, 222 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: right in your back yard in the shadows of Disney. 223 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,479 Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall this over in celebration 224 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: where the father was going under with all of his businesses. 225 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: He was committing fraud on the government for like one 226 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: of those muscle rehab places where after you are injured 227 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: you're supposed to get rehabbed. He was cheating the government 228 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: like nobody's business. They found out, everything started going down, down, down. 229 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: He drove straight down to Celebration, Florida and murdered his 230 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: wife and children rather than anybody find out they're all 231 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: going bust. This is not a knee story, doctor Gallagher. 232 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: Remember that's case. It was recessed. Oh absolutely, And if 233 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: anyone has been a celebration, it's a very high exclusive 234 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood in the Disney area where how is there millions 235 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars each and of course image would 236 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: be one of the main pressing factors there. If you're 237 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: going to live, you know, doctor Gallagher, I got myself 238 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: and the children and my husband all in the car 239 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: on a vacation. I had an underlying motive. I went 240 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: down there to see this location and see and it's 241 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: exactly as you just said. That's what we call where 242 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: I come from, living high on the hog, way too 243 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: high on the hog. And then when it all started 244 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: falling apart, it was better to kill his family than 245 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: admit financial ruin. I want to go back to a 246 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: special guest, doctor Mark R. Pressman. Doctor Pressman, I want 247 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: you to take a listen to our cut number nine. 248 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: This is Ariel Clay at w R A L. Christine 249 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: Pirolini broke down when recalling the night her four year 250 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: old son was suffocated, and I was scared to touch 251 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: him first because he didn't look great. Intosh's he didn't 252 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,479 Speaker 1: have a February Joseph Mitchell's attorneys say he was sleepwalking 253 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: the night of the incident, and question Pierrolini about trouble 254 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: Mitchell had at night before Blake's death, including one time 255 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: when he reared back to hit her. Believe so interesting 256 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: to you, doctor Pressman, the only time he had. He 257 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: has these episodes where he commits X in his sleep 258 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: they're always domestic violence. You don't think that's a coincidence, Well, 259 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: it certainly could be. My approach is very different. I 260 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: want to know whether his behaviors that night are consistent 261 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: with what we know sleepwalkers can or cannot do. And 262 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: so typically sleepwalking violence, the sleepwalker does not go to 263 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: the victim. You know, all this sort of cartoonish stuff 264 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: about the sleepwalker walking with his arms out and to 265 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: be a knife in his hand and you know, yelling kill, kill, 266 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: kill while he looks for revenge or something. That doesn't happen. 267 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: In almost all of the cases of sleepwalking violence, the 268 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: victim actually comes to the sleepwalker. Fleepwalkers up and about 269 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: and the victim basically tries to get them to turn around, 270 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: or they block them, or they do something and they 271 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: accidentally trigger sleepwalking violence, which is actually defensive because the 272 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: sleepwalker doesn't recognize fleepwalker can't recognize faces, They don't know 273 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: who this person is. This person is just a potential 274 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: a potential threat that they have to deal with on 275 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: a very primitive level. And also there are no reported 276 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: cases ever a violence of more than one person at 277 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: a time. So the fact that he came into the room. 278 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: Very unusual and and abnormal in the fact that there 279 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: are three victims all at the same time has never 280 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: been reported and is not consistent with what we know 281 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: about sweet and Coincidentally, although I couldn't get you to 282 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: commit to a coincidence, very wise of you, doctor. Coincidentally, 283 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: there were three life insurance policies as well. Okay, doctor, pressman, 284 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay 285 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: down for this. Let's hear cut ten. This is tamer 286 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: gives ABC eleven. The jurors we spoke with are so 287 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: concerned about the public's reaction to their verdict that they 288 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: asked to remain anonymous, and they tell us if manslaughter 289 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: had been on the table, Joseph Mitchell would still be 290 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: in jail. On one side of the courtroom, a relieve defendant, 291 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: on the other, a grieving mother, and inside the jury 292 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: box twelve conflicted men and women. It was the reasonable 293 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: doubt that that gotten as men all this jur who 294 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: asked us not to reveal her name or show her face, 295 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: says a nitial. There were a few holdoubts, but ultimately 296 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: the panel agreed Joseph Mitchell did not act with malice, intent, 297 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: or premeditation that's required for a first second degree murder conviction. 298 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: Our justice system failed this family. I don't think the 299 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: jury failed. I think we made the decision we had 300 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: to make based on the laws and the instructions we 301 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: were given. Well, they can tell themselves that when they 302 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: try to put their head on the pillow. To you, 303 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: sel McCollum, you know when a jury or a jr. 304 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: Has to hide their face when they leave the courthouse, 305 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: when they don't want their name known, they know they 306 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: did the wrong thing. Here's what drives me crazy about 307 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: what she said. She doesn't believe her own verdict. Why 308 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: in the world would you say there's reasonable doubt when 309 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: there's not with you? That's insane to me. This guy 310 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: did not go to bed with a mask and a knife. 311 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: He waited until the wife was asleep, and by the 312 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: house of sleep he went and attacked two children and 313 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: then fled after the murder, locking himself in a room 314 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: for self protection, and then claimed, oh, I didn't know 315 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was sleepwalking. And my question 316 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: for that is had he ever sleepwalked before? Had he 317 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: sought medical help for it? What steps did he take 318 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: to prevent this. I bet nothing because it was pre planned. 319 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: I bet nothing because there was no previous sleep walking 320 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: problem unless he tried to pull one over on his wife. 321 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: And for ten on an earlier occasion, he had been sleepwalking. 322 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you that 323 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: did not hear it, the jury down this guy not guilty. 324 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: Blake Mitchell, the little boy who lost his life just 325 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: four years old. His dad Joseph Anthony Mitchell fifty there 326 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: in Durham, North Carolina, has walked free. But that's really 327 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg, you know. And I 328 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: want to go back out to you. James Shellnutt, twenty 329 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: seven years Metro Major case law Enforcement now lawyer. James. 330 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: The judge specifically instructs the jury in every single criminal 331 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: felony case, you are to use and apply your common sense, 332 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: almost verbatim, and you are to reach a verdict to 333 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: a moral and reasonable certainty, moral and reasonable certainty, reasonable head, 334 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: moral heart. In other words, if you believe it. If 335 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: you believe he did this thing, then the state has 336 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: carried their burden. Yes or no, shall not? Oh? I agree, 337 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: And you know I find it odd for this jury 338 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: to say, well, if manslaughter would have been on the table, 339 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: then he wouldn't have left the courthouse. He'd went to jail. 340 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: You know, malice of forethought can be formed in the 341 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: blink of an eye. It doesn't take days or weeks 342 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: or hours of planning. It can happen in an instant 343 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: and quite frankly, sometimes you just get bad juries. You 344 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: get bad juries that don't use common sense. You get 345 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: bad juries that may not understand what they're doing, and 346 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: you get bad juries that sometimes they're anti police, anti prosecution, 347 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: And it just seems like this was a bad jury 348 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: that made a bad decision on a case where a 349 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: man should have been convicted of murder. This jury, reeks, guys, 350 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: that was in North Carolina. Let's cross a country to Phoenix, Arizona. 351 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut one. This is Brianna Whitney. 352 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: Just heard her kneeling and you could hear her rolling 353 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: around in the rocks. Scott Phalater's next door neighbors jolted 354 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: away everyone outside to see if we could hear if 355 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: somebody needed help or something, and then the screaming quit. 356 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: Police got to the house to find Phalater waiting for them. 357 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: His wife Yarmila dead in the pool forty four stab 358 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: wounds to her body. Phalater told them he had been 359 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: sleepwalking and couldn't remember anything, but the next door neighbor 360 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: told police he watched Phalater stab his wife, drag her 361 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: to the pool, hold her head underwater, and then quieting 362 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: the dog, going up the stairs, turning on a light, 363 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: taking clothes off, going down to the garage, getting things 364 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: out of the garage. He dashed the bloody knife and 365 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: his bloody clothes in his car, all while his twelve 366 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: and fifteen year old children were asleep in the house. 367 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends there at True Crime Arizona. Another 368 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: sleepwalking murder. Okay, guys, forty four stab wounds. Take a 369 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition our cut too. 370 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: It was a murder that shocked the nation. The notorious 371 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: sleepwalking killer Scott later stabbed his wife forty four times, 372 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: then drowned her in the pool. His defense, he was sleepwalking. 373 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: I breathed the fight. When Phoenix cops got there, they 374 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: found Falter at the top of the stairs in his pajamas. 375 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: He made remarks to the stead of what's going on? 376 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: What are you doing in my house? That is all 377 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: about Scott Later. Let me go back to Chrissy miss Uri, 378 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, what happened in Arizona. It 379 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: depends on what tale you want to believe, whether you 380 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: want to believe Scott Later or the neighbors that watched 381 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: a methodical murderer in action. You know, as as the 382 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: US start with the neighbors, Christie right, so they hear 383 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: some noises in the neighbor's backyard and look over the 384 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: fence to find your milla create a laying on the 385 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: ground that they watched Scott walk very calmly back into 386 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: the house and is mentioned in the clip you know, 387 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: turn lights off and on as he's making his way 388 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: through the house changing clothes. But one detail that came 389 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: out in testimony is that Greg Coon's the neighbor watched 390 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: Scott's Philater don a pair of gloves before he comes 391 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: back outside and drags his body his wife's bodies over 392 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: to the pool and drowns her. The very critical fact 393 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: removes the gloves, takes off his clothes, puts him in 394 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: a tupperware container along with the bloody knife. When the 395 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: cops show up, he's standing at the top of the 396 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: stairs with a crisp white T shirt eye. Okay, Cheryl McCallum, 397 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert jump 398 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: in feet first, premeditation Again, everything he did after the 399 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: murder was to save himself. So you're talking about a 400 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: calculated I've got to have gloves. I've got a drown 401 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: her to make sure she's dead, because she's not dead 402 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: from the stab wounds. Now I've got to hide the 403 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: clothes that I was wearing when I committed the crime. 404 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to change clothes so I looked fresh and clean, 405 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: so they'll never suspect me. This is not somebody out 406 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: of it asleep that doesn't know what they're doing. These 407 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: are criminals acting out crimes we see every day the 408 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: exact same way. I mean, don't you think doctor Tim 409 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: Gallagher that after forty four stabs, the jarring of the stabs, 410 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: crunching through bone, cartilage, tendons, muscle, human organs would have 411 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: woken him up? Well, you know, my patients really are 412 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: not you know, alive. But I would think that by 413 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: using common sense, which all of us on the panel have, 414 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: that yes, one stab when one poke, even a poke 415 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: in the eye, roke or a sharp poke in the 416 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: chest would wake me up, certainly, forty four stab wounds 417 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't wake me. No, I mean the defendant, the husband, 418 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 1: the jarring motion of forty four stabs, dragging your wife 419 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: around changing clothes, and then when the police to get there, 420 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: you're like, what happened? I mean to doctor Mark Pressman, 421 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: joining us, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable scientific Evidence, 422 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: I must make a confession. My nephew a real brainiac, 423 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: and as a child, would sleepwalk. And I remember one episode. 424 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: We went all went to Jackson Hall, Wyoming for my parents' 425 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: fiftieth wedding anniversary, and that night my nephew was sleeping 426 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: in the room with me and I heard the door 427 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: opening and I looked up and immediately sprung up. This 428 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: is when I was still a prosecutor. I ran out 429 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: in the hall and there is my little nephew, maybe 430 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: nine years old, walking down the hall, and I called 431 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: his name, and he didn't turn around. I called his 432 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: name again, he didn't turn around. I ran to him 433 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: and got in front of him and grabbed him by 434 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: the shoulders. He looked so afraid and he ran back 435 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: to the room. Jumped in the bed and hunched up 436 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: and put a pillow over his head. He was afraid 437 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: he was asleep, but when I touched his shoulders, he 438 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: was groggy. But he ran back to the room because 439 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: he looked around in the hall and didn't understand what 440 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: was happening around him. But by the time he got 441 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: back to the room, he was awakened from his sleepwalking. 442 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: So explain to me, you're the expert, doctor Pressman, how 443 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: someone could conceivably stab their wife forty four times and 444 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: claimed they were asleep. Wow. I was the prosecution expert, 445 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: so I don't think he did. At trial, I presented 446 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 1: sixty different instances of behaviors he had. This was Remember 447 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: this trial was very unusual because the next door neighbor 448 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: was in the backyard watching what was going on for 449 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: a good twenty minutes. You know, light's going and off. 450 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: That's evidence that you never have in cases like this. 451 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: So the important thing to know about a real sleepwalker 452 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: is real sleepwalker does not have well we go higher 453 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: cognitive function. Real sleepwalker cannot form a memory, cannot retrieve 454 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: a memory. A real sleepwalker cannot plan, A real sleepwalker 455 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: cannot form an intent. Real sleepwalker has no social social abilities. 456 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: That part of the brain that has those you know, 457 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: where those abilities reside is turned off in the sleepwalker 458 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: is deactivated. So if the sleepwalker does something that can 459 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: only happen with that part of the brain activated, then 460 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: they're not asleep. They're not sleepwalker, they're awake. Crime Stories 461 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Guys, we are talking about murders committed 462 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: while they defendant is allegedly asleep. You were just hearing 463 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: about Scott Felder. You'll be happy to know that he 464 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: was actually convicted. But I want to talk to you 465 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: about another case, the case of Deborah Lazaraine to Christy Missourich, 466 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, President of Successful Strategies pr 467 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: in Crisis Communications, tell me about the case of Deborah Lazaraine. 468 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: So this is again the children are involved, and they're 469 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: really the ones that kind of perpetuate the nine one 470 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: one calls a Raymond Lazarine calls his son Nathan. It's 471 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: the middle of the day, afternoon, urging him to come 472 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: to the house. He said he's having a dream that 473 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: he shot and killed his wife. It was not a dream. 474 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Nathan arrives. He finds his mother, Deborah dead on the floor, 475 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: shell casing scattered all around her. She's shot a half 476 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: dozen times, two shots to her head, in her back. 477 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: He finds his father in the bedroom with a gun, 478 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. When the police arrived, he tells him he 479 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: doesn't know what was happening. He was dreaming. But here's 480 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: the thing, you know. When the cops talked to to Nathan, 481 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Nathan said, look, my father's threatened my mom in the past. 482 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: He's very controlling. We never filed a complaint, didn't know 483 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: if it would rise to this, And at the time 484 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: of this shooting, Raymond Lazarine was under psyched yet for 485 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: care and taking prescriptions for psychotic episodes. Straight back out 486 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, director of the Coal Case 487 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: Research Institute, didn't O. J. Simpson have a dream that 488 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: he killed Nicole Brown? I believe. So let me tell 489 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: you something easy, funny, how these dreams were If it 490 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: weren't so prop I guess they're all clairvoyant, Cheryl, because 491 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: all these dreams come true. They do kill their wives, 492 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: and they know exactly how they kill them. It wasn't 493 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: like oh Man and I had a horrible dream. She 494 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: fell off a cliff. No, you knew you shot her. Amazing, 495 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: and you just happen to be sitting there with a 496 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: weapon in your hand when your son finally shows up. 497 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: I mean here, it's just baffling. And again, if it 498 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: weren't so tragic, it would be laughable. The level of 499 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: bs that this arises to is just unbelievable. Everybody on 500 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: this panel that is married to a man knows that knows. 501 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: The time they couldn't find a mask or gloves or 502 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: bins or phone numbers, they always come to us, but 503 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: not these much. Well that's a mop and a brand, 504 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: much less a mop of a broom. But not these guys. 505 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: Oh he found a Halloween mask or what Halloween? The 506 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: other one has a pair of gloves sitting on ready. 507 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: The other one's got bins. He could put bloody clothes 508 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: in garbage. It's complete, garbage, complete. I can't believe juries 509 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: are falling for this guys. We're talking about the case 510 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: of Raymond Lazarine his wife Deborah Lazarine. Take a listen 511 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: to our cut thirteen Kaylee harteng at ABC's America This Morning. 512 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: This Morning, an unusual murder trial is underway in Texas 513 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: for a man who blames his sleepwalking for the death 514 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: of his wife. In December twenty thirteen, Raymond Lazarine called 515 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: his son and told him he had just had a 516 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: dream that he shot and killed his wife of thirty 517 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: five years, Deborah Lazarine. But it wasn't a dream. Lazarine 518 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: admits he shot Deborah half a dozen times. He claims 519 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: it was involuntary on account that he was asleep. There 520 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: are other witnesses over there that have seen the manifestation 521 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: of a sleep disorder, and we thought that would be 522 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: important for the jury. Tonne joining me special guest doctor 523 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable 524 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence, and an expert witness in the case against 525 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. What can you tell us, doctor, Well, first 526 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: of all, they got it a little bit wrong. It 527 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: actually was not a sleepwalking defense. It was a disorder 528 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: that may appear externally very similar, but is even rarer 529 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: and actually scarier. It's called rem behavior disorder RAM is 530 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: rapid eye movement sleep. Most people are where that's the 531 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: kind of sleep when you typically have your vivid dreaming 532 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: and okay, wait a minute, let me understand how finally 533 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: you're splitting this hair. You're saying, this is not a 534 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense. This is an M defense. You have ri 535 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: em rapid eye movement. So everyone has when you're asleep, 536 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: everyone has REM sleep. And what brief he is saying 537 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: he was asleep when he killed him. He's claiming he 538 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: was in REM sleep at the time. And there's one 539 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: Could you tell me what difference does that make he 540 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: was asleep when he did it. It's there's an enormous 541 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: difference in why it occurs and what kind the behaviors 542 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: someone who has M behavior disorder can have. One of 543 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: the least known things about normal REM sleep is that 544 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: people who are or are dreaming are unable to move 545 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: okay for all intensive purposes. Everybody who has who dreams 546 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: is essentially paralyzed while they dream. If you weren't paralyzed, 547 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: you might be able to essentially act out your dream. 548 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: And just think of the last dream you had, what 549 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: would happen if you acted that out. So what he's 550 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: saying is for some reason problem in the brain. That 551 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: we actually know what is wrong in the brain in 552 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: these cases, that the mechanism that causes the paralysis didn't work, 553 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: and for some reason he got up and retrieve the 554 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: gun and search for his wife, etcetera, etcetera. But none 555 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: of that is possible. Yes, I'm sorry to ask you 556 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: a very simple This is a yes. No, doctor in 557 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: the case you must Yes, I've got you on the 558 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: hot seat. You're on cross in my mind anyway. Yeah, 559 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 1: you've been You want me to answer yes or no? 560 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: I never answer or doctor Fressman. Isn't it true that, 561 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, charged in the murder 562 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: of his wife, Deborah Lazarine, in that case you were 563 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: an expert witness. And isn't it true that at the 564 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: time of the death of the wife Lazarine claimed he 565 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 1: was asleep. Well, he claimed he was streaming asleep. Yes, 566 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: he claimed he was in a dream when he did it. Yes, Yes, 567 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: Now I understand you're saying, or I think I do. Anyway, 568 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: they didn't teach me this at law school. You'd have 569 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: to be an MD for this. But I think what 570 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: you're saying is, let me throw this to you, doctor 571 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: gen Man. The parsing of the words is splitting of 572 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: the hair. Is that the defendant claim he had an 573 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: RM rapid eye movement problem. But the reality is he 574 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: still claims he was asleep when he murdered his wife. 575 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: Are you understanding that the same way I'm understanding I am. 576 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know that this guy had a rapid 577 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: eye movement problem. Might think he had a domestic violence 578 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: problem because there is a history of other incidents where 579 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: he was violent with his wife. And as a therapist 580 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: who I don't specialize in fleet disorders, but I have 581 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: a long history working with domestic violence survivors. That's what 582 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: I look at. And there's an incident where his wife 583 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: asked for a glass of water and next thing she knew, 584 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: he was on top of her with a gun under her. 585 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: Chick to you, Christie Missourich, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter. 586 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: Isn't it true that this defendant, the husband, Raymond Lazzarine, 587 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: had a long history of being a nasty and hateful 588 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: and abusive drunk as an abusive alcoholic who regularly threatened 589 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: his wife with violence. Isn't that true? According to his 590 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: son Nathan, he broke down too many instances to list. 591 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: The problem was they never called the police out of 592 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: maybe their own personal fear. But the father would habitually 593 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: pop these prescription medications and you know, slug back a 594 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: couple of shots of whiskey. You know what's interesting, Cheryl McCollum. 595 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: You know all the years that I prosecuted, including domestic 596 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: homicides and agg assualts, and worked at the Battered Women's 597 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: Center on the hotline. So often it's typically men, but 598 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: it can be women to blame beating their partner on alcohol. 599 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 1: I don't buy that. It's not the alcohol's fault. Alcohol 600 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: makes you more of what you are. So when women say, oh, 601 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 1: he's a good man when he's not drinking, the problem 602 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: is he ain't never not drinking. And if you drink 603 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: enough again, it heightens who you are. If you are 604 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: fun and just the life of the party, the more 605 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: you drink, the more fun you are. If you're just 606 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: a piece of crap who's looking for a fight, as 607 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: soon as you start drinking, you're just slugging the first 608 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: person you see. To you, Christine, mister Rick, what happened 609 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, You don't look he's 610 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: We're all safer to have someone like that behind, you 611 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: know what, And to my understanding, multiple defendants across the 612 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: US have gotten off Scott Free walks, Scott Free claiming 613 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: sleep disorder, sleep walking. Today we examine the case of 614 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: Scott for later, who managed to slip through the fingers 615 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: of Lady justice, as compared to Mitchell and Lazarine. Long 616 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: story short, all of these guys, still, whether convicted or acquitted, 617 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: insist they were sleepwalking. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off 618 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: Goodbye friend.