1
00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,000
Speaker 1: If you haven't heard of methylene blue yet, you have

2
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,040
Speaker 1: to listen to Joe Rogan and Chase He's discussing on

3
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 1: his podcast.

4
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 2: Mel Gibson was on here talking about it.

5
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,520
Speaker 1: RFK Junior tory about you had a brain disease.

6
00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 2: What did you do to fix it? I started him

7
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,920
Speaker 2: a seizures like a few years ago. And everybody in

8
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,400
Speaker 2: my family knows I'm a neuroscientist, so I kind of

9
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 2: looked around and I found this guy's a functional medicine guy,

10
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 2: and he got me on methylene blue. And I know

11
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 2: mel Gibson was on here talking about it. That instantly

12
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,680
Speaker 2: stopped everything. Tastes like chewing an ass. I take it, okay, Yeah,

13
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:30,840
Speaker 2: I take it every day as well.

14
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,479
Speaker 1: And RFK Junior toy about it.

15
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 2: Man, It's fantastic. It helps with depression and anxiety and

16
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,159
Speaker 2: all kinds of life stress and stuff. It is a

17
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,520
Speaker 2: miracle and it's been proven for one hundred years. That's

18
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 2: one of the most well proven drugs out there.

19
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 1: Emily, I am stressing out a little bit about this episode,

20
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: are you? I am so? Methylene blue is probably the

21
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: first topic we've covered that, like most people may not

22
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: have heard of yet. Like this is I mean, it's

23
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: definitely in the wellness space, but you know, it's not microplastics,

24
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,280
Speaker 1: it's not glp ones, and they're certainly as we'll get to,

25
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, this stuff is not totally benign. And I

26
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 1: was thinking, like, wait, should we even be talking about

27
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: this or like we platform? Can you platform a wellness product?

28
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 3: And should you do your platform a synthetic dye?

29
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah yeah. Are we to methylene blue what

30
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson is to Nick Fuent's That is what is

31
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 1: keeping me up at night right now?

32
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 3: That would keep me up? But I think the answer

33
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 3: is no, partly because Joe Rogan has already talked about this.

34
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 3: People have speculated that the Health Secretary is drinking and

35
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 3: although he is not confirmed. And I also think one

36
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,000
Speaker 3: of the things that happens with a lot of these

37
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 3: wellness trends is they pop up when you're not expecting them.

38
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 3: And this is like a pre preparation. So in your analogy,

39
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 3: it's like, we are going to pair you for what

40
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 3: Nick Foundays is like and then whin Tacker Carlson has

41
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 3: him on, you'll be ready. I'm Emily Aster. I'm an

42
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 3: economist and a data expert.

43
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,520
Speaker 1: And I'm Perry Wilson. I'm a medical doctor.

44
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 3: It's Thursday, May twenty first, twenty twenty six, and this

45
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 3: is wellness actually.

46
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 1: Because you're getting a staggering amount of health and wellness

47
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,400
Speaker 1: information nowadays from every source imaginable, and some of it

48
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 1: is awesome and some.

49
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,080
Speaker 3: Of it is well actually bullshit. Fortunately, we are both

50
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 3: people who know how to read studies, how to parse

51
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 3: the data, and can tell you what's worth thinking about

52
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,240
Speaker 3: and what you can safely ignore.

53
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 1: But before we dig in, a note that this podcast

54
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 1: is for educational purposes and should not be construed as

55
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: medical advice. We don't know your unique situation, so talk

56
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 1: to your doctor for personal health decisions.

57
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 3: This week we're asking what's the deal with methylene blue?

58
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,640
Speaker 3: Perry and I will give the official smasher pass, and

59
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 3: then we'll get to your question of the week. But

60
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,640
Speaker 3: first let's do the health news. After the break.

61
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,959
Speaker 1: And we're back with your health news of the week, Emily,

62
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with something that is like really

63
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: caught fire on social media, and that is Driscolls strawberries,

64
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 1: a product that because my youngest absolutely loves strawberries, I'm

65
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 1: buying quite frequently. There was a report released that there

66
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,040
Speaker 1: were multiple pesticides and including some so called forever chemicals

67
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 1: found on these strawberries, and it's leading to people getting

68
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 1: very afraid to purchase them. So what do you think?

69
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,360
Speaker 1: Is this a disaster for the strawberry industry?

70
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 3: So I think it's worth saying what people are seeing online,

71
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 3: which is posts that say there's a thirty eight percent

72
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 3: increased risk of cancer consume from Driscoll strawberries. That's the headline,

73
00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 3: panic headline that people are hearing, and I want to

74
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,600
Speaker 3: start with what that is. So what's going on there

75
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,920
Speaker 3: is some people have looked at childhood cancer rates by

76
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 3: county in California and one of the things they've noted

77
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,120
Speaker 3: is that the counties that grow strawberries have, relative to

78
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 3: the average in California, elevated cancer rates. Now, there are

79
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons that could be true. They may

80
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,720
Speaker 3: have a different demographic population, they may have actually sometimes

81
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 3: this is because they have a hospital and so you're

82
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 3: counting things in a different way because of where the

83
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,200
Speaker 3: diagnosis is. These aren't the places with the highest cancer

84
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 3: rates in California, but they are higher than the average.

85
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 3: And the link that is then made is Okay, this

86
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 3: is because of pesticide exposure from the strawberries. There's really

87
00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,040
Speaker 3: no direct evidence that that is true. And even and

88
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 3: if that were true, it doesn't mean that eating the

89
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,039
Speaker 3: strawberries gives you the kind of exposure that would have

90
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 3: any risk for cancer. So this is like we're sort

91
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 3: of seven steps down on the causal chain. It is

92
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 3: true that most fruits are treated with pesticides, but then

93
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 3: they are washed, and we do have some exposure to

94
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,359
Speaker 3: chemicals as people, but that is part of our life

95
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 3: in the modern world. So this has struck me as

96
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 3: an overstated panic headline that should not really be keeping

97
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 3: people up the way that it is.

98
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,200
Speaker 1: But I should keep washing my strawberries.

99
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,039
Speaker 3: You should wash your strawberries because they've been at the

100
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 3: store and they might have poop on them and stuff

101
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 3: like that. But yes, you should wash your fruit, but

102
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 3: it's not a you should always be washing your fruit.

103
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: Don't underestimate how lazy I am.

104
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:47,839
Speaker 3: Wash your fruit berry?

105
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: Okay, good lord, what if I'm really hungry?

106
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,839
Speaker 3: Okay? On another topic, we have been seeing a lot

107
00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:01,400
Speaker 3: about ebola. Yeah, say more. Can we be worried about ebola?

108
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 3: Have moved, We've moved on from hauntavirus seems to have

109
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 3: died down, and when now we're on a Bola. What's

110
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 3: going on with Abola?

111
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,560
Speaker 1: I know this is our third week in a row

112
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,800
Speaker 1: talking about a epidemic slash potential pandemic, which is very

113
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,960
Speaker 1: upciting and giving me some COVID PTSD. But let's level

114
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: set here. So first of all, remember hauntavirus like the

115
00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: hottest thing a week ago, and now it's like, oh no,

116
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 1: that's that's old news. We're onto ebol. Everybody, haunt of

117
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 1: virus is gone, haunt virus is still out there. I

118
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,919
Speaker 1: will just point out that there are no positive cases

119
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 1: in the US and that particular outbreak on the cruise

120
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 1: ship does seem to have been effectively contained. Knock on woods,

121
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 1: so we'll see. Ebola is a virus that causes a

122
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 1: hemorrhagic gastron tritis. You know, you're essentially bleeding from multiple orifices.

123
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,559
Speaker 1: This particular outbreak is a version of the virus called

124
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,960
Speaker 1: Ebola Bundy bugio, which is actually relatively rare. They are

125
00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,560
Speaker 1: about four different Ebola viruses. You may have heard of

126
00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,839
Speaker 1: Ebola year, which is the one that they talked about

127
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 1: in the hot zone. This outbreak is primarily in the

128
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo. There are three hundred and thirty

129
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 1: cases with eighty to ninety fatalities so far, almost all

130
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 1: entirely in that country, although there has been some spread

131
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: into Uganda. Just yesterday, the US instituted a thirty day

132
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: travel restriction from the DRC Uganda and Southern Sudan, And

133
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 1: so you know, they're treating this as and the who

134
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: is treating this as a public health emergency. Ebola is

135
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,400
Speaker 1: transmitted through bodily fluids, through the blood and excrement and

136
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 1: stuff like that that an infected person is putting out,

137
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,880
Speaker 1: and so the primary risk here is to healthcare professionals

138
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 1: and family members potentially in under resourced areas, who are

139
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: trying to treat and care for these people. Transmission can

140
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 1: be very effectively prevented through the use of personal protective

141
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 1: equipment gowns, loves masks, biohazard suits, et cetera. But this

142
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 1: does spread person to person. It has. We've talked before,

143
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,520
Speaker 1: Emily about the basic reproduction number, the average number of

144
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: people that one person spreads the virus two and a

145
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 1: bowl is sitting around two. It's not crazy high. But

146
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 1: it's a little bit. That number is an average and

147
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: it belies one of the weirdnesses of ebola transmission, which

148
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 1: is that it's it's very super spreader dominant, So most

149
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 1: people with ebola may not transmit it at all, and

150
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 1: then you have these individual people who will transmit it

151
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 1: to you know, ten twenty thirty people, so you get

152
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,080
Speaker 1: an average of two, and that just means you have

153
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 1: to be super careful again with containment, you know, we

154
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,640
Speaker 1: have to follow this. This is something particularly in areas

155
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 1: that don't have access to good quality healthcare and the

156
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 1: biohazard containment that's necessary for very infectious and obviously very

157
00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,760
Speaker 1: deadly virus like this, like this could lead to a

158
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 1: large outbreak, particularly you know in sub Saharan Africa where

159
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,080
Speaker 1: those resources just aren't available.

160
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've seen that kind of size outbreak before

161
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 3: in these areas. The last few years, there have been

162
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 3: some smaller outbreaks which have been contained. So this is

163
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,320
Speaker 3: something where I think we do know how to contain it,

164
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,439
Speaker 3: or at least have some tools to do that. The

165
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 3: question is just sort of implementing them.

166
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,079
Speaker 1: I should say, there is an FDA proved e bowl

167
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,160
Speaker 1: of vaccine, but it is targeted against the zyre strain,

168
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of consternation actually about whether this

169
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: vaccine would be affected for this Bungi bunyo strain. They're

170
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 1: genetically not very similar. I mean, they're both the BOWLA viruses,

171
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,320
Speaker 1: but they're not like brother and sister, and so there's

172
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 1: some debate about whether it's ethical to, you know, ship

173
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 1: vaccine over there. You want my cards on the table,

174
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, why don't you give it a tribe because

175
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,679
Speaker 1: that's what we have, and you know, the vaccine is

176
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: relatively safe. But people above my pay grade will be deciding.

177
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 3: Those sorts of things, that's for sure.

178
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 1: All right, Let's move on to something a little less scary,

179
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:18,079
Speaker 1: and that's tanning beds. So the FDA is now withdrawing

180
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 1: a proposed rule that would limit tanning bed exposure for miners.

181
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: Several states across the country do prohibit miners from using

182
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 1: tanning beds, and the FDA was potentially going to make

183
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 1: that a national rule. And the reporting here is that

184
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 1: this comes from the La Times, is that this was

185
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 1: driven by RFK Jr, a man who may or may

186
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: not own eight tanning beds and rotate through them every

187
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 1: single day. RFK has said stuff about like the importance

188
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: of some light that I've always kind of wondered what

189
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 1: he's talking about, Emily, like what's going on? What's going

190
00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 1: on with tanning beds?

191
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 3: And RFK no, he So you know, first of all,

192
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 3: we have a fair amount of evidence that exposure to

193
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 3: a lot of a UV light increases your risk of

194
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 3: skin cancer. So tanning beds are not a good idea

195
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 3: for people, and they're actually particularly not a good idea

196
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,200
Speaker 3: for young people who have many, many years in which

197
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,120
Speaker 3: to develop skin cancer. And so it is this is

198
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 3: why we tell people that they should wear sunscreen, and

199
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 3: why we tell kids that they should wear sunscreen, and

200
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 3: why you shouldn't purposely go inside a place with no

201
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 3: sunscreen that's going.

202
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,520
Speaker 1: To irradiate you.

203
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,559
Speaker 3: But what I think is interesting here is like what's

204
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 3: behind this? Because often with these things you sort of

205
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 3: back into like, well, why would you think this is

206
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,839
Speaker 3: a good idea? And I think the answer is that

207
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 3: there is this feeling in some of these wellness spaces

208
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 3: that we need more sun exposure because of vitamin D,

209
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,400
Speaker 3: that like we need more natural vitamin D sun exposure,

210
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,480
Speaker 3: and people have gotten it's gotten too much with the sunscreen,

211
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,679
Speaker 3: and you should be going outside some of the time

212
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 3: to be exposed to some vitamin D. I don't think

213
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,240
Speaker 3: we have a lot of evidence for that, But even

214
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 3: if we did, what you'd be talking about, if you said, like, look,

215
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 3: you need a little more vitamin D, we'd be talking

216
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,160
Speaker 3: about like fifteen minutes in the early morning when the

217
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 3: UV light is not as extreme. This is very different

218
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 3: than you know, lay inside an ultra radiated UV experience

219
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 3: as a teenager. So I'm just I am a no

220
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,239
Speaker 3: on tanning bits. Yeah, I'm a past I'm not smashing

221
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:28,960
Speaker 3: Teenso tanning beds pairy.

222
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,679
Speaker 1: Oh, their carcinogenic. And also they give you wrinkles.

223
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,080
Speaker 3: They do give you wrinkles. I wore so much sunscreen

224
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,839
Speaker 3: and look at where we are now. You know people

225
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,920
Speaker 3: can't see. But it's just beauty, porcelain, porcelain.

226
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,200
Speaker 1: It's so small porcelain skin.

227
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 3: Well, that's not just the filter. That's also.

228
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,079
Speaker 1: All right, that's the health news of the week after

229
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 1: the break, what's the deal with methylene blue?

230
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 4: First, fighting for my life, I learned something most people

231
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 4: never hear from their doctor. Your mitochondria decide whether your

232
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 4: body heals or breaks down. And one of the simplest

233
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 4: tools I still used to energize mysels is methylene blue.

234
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 5: What makes methylene blue such an amazing chemical? Methylin blue

235
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,440
Speaker 5: does a bunch of things to the body. Can help

236
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 5: improve your energy, and it can help improve your mood.

237
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 5: It can help improve your brain function, can help improve

238
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 5: your focus. It's a bit of an anti microbial and

239
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:23,840
Speaker 5: also an anti viral.

240
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 1: Hand it can improve your skin.

241
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 4: Trust me, a blue tongue is worth it if your

242
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:28,560
Speaker 4: mitochondria are tired.

243
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 3: Okay, Perry, So before we even get into methylene blue,

244
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,679
Speaker 3: I actually want to talk about mitochondria.

245
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 1: Oh good, there is.

246
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 3: There are two reasons. One is I feel very prepared

247
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 3: because my ninth grader has been doing biology and so

248
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,400
Speaker 3: all year I've been learning about this. So I feel

249
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 3: like I'm this is the first time in like, you know,

250
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 3: twenty seven years, that I'm prepared to discuss the details

251
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:52,600
Speaker 3: of mitochondria.

252
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Maybe we should just do a whole

253
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 1: episode on mitochondria, bring your ninth grader on board.

254
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 3: But I also but I think the thing that struck

255
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 3: me here is the phrase my mitochondria are tired, And

256
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,680
Speaker 3: like I think we should help people. We should start

257
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 3: by helping people understand why are your mitochondria and what

258
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 3: would it mean to say that they are tired of

259
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 3: doing things?

260
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean people, stop anthropomorphizing your mitochondria. Do we

261
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 1: name our mitochondria? Jason?

262
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 3: We have so many it would be hard.

263
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: It is hard.

264
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,520
Speaker 3: Jason one and Jason two, Jason three.

265
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So the ninth grade version, of course, is that

266
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 1: the mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell, right, They're

267
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 1: the things that make energy. But you know, I think

268
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 1: we have to now we've got to like go up

269
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 1: to ap bio level maybe here, and talk to people

270
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: in a little more detail about what the mitochondria are

271
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 1: actually doing. So do you want me to talk about

272
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 1: the electronic transport chain or do you want to jump in?

273
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 3: First of all, I just want to be clear. I

274
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 3: did learn about the electronic transfer again earlier this year,

275
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 3: so I'm prepared. But why don't you start?

276
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 1: And then okay you jump there? All right, So we've

277
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: talked before that your cells use ATP as their energy currency.

278
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,360
Speaker 1: So all the proteins that need energy bind ATP. They

279
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 1: use the energy of ATP kick off a phosphate and

280
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 1: they can do their stuff that requires energy, and it's

281
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: the mitochondria that make that atp. They do that by

282
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,520
Speaker 1: getting electrons in a very high energy state from a

283
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 1: variety of digestive processes that occur in your cell, like

284
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,520
Speaker 1: the CREB cycle, which is something else that I really

285
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: don't want to go through right now. We're staying away

286
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 1: from the Cb cycle. But what you get out of

287
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: the Creb cycle takes glucose and things like that down

288
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 1: to a very highly energetic molecule called NADH, which has

289
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: an electron in it that's at a very high energy state,

290
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,280
Speaker 1: and that electron is donated to the electron transport chain

291
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 1: in the mitochondria. And the best way I can explain

292
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: the electron transport chain is like, imagine you have a reservoir, okay,

293
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 1: and you know a dam that's holding back water, and

294
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 1: then you can open you know, a valve on that

295
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 1: dam and water flows to a lower level and generates electricity.

296
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: And then imagine below that level you have a lower

297
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 1: level that you can open a valve and the water

298
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: drains down and generates more electricity, and so on and

299
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 1: so forth. That's the electron transport chain. There are four

300
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 1: complexes in it, and it takes that high energy electron

301
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 1: and every time that electron gets passed from one complex

302
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 1: to another, it gets to a lower and lower energy state,

303
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 1: and that energy is used to pump protons into the mitochondria.

304
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 1: And at the very end, all those protons are stuck

305
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 1: in the mitochondria, they're really eager to get out. They

306
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: flow through this protein which is like a turbine, which

307
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 1: is called the proton ATP synthase, and that protein makes ATP.

308
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 1: So you've got this really complicated process to take energy

309
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,360
Speaker 1: from electrons and step wise get it into something that

310
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 1: can make ATP. That's a mitochondria, and the ATP can

311
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 1: do it's thing. If one of those proteins doesn't work, okay,

312
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 1: like the valve in the dam is stuck. You can't

313
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 1: open the valve, okay. Those are typically genetic conditions that

314
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 1: we call the mitochondrial diseases. So these are typically inherited

315
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: from the mother, because you get virtually all your mitochondrial

316
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,200
Speaker 1: DNA from your mom, because the egg has all the

317
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,199
Speaker 1: mitochondrias your mitochondrial DNA is maternal and kids who have

318
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 1: these these particular mutations in the electron transport chain are

319
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: severely disabled. I mean sometimes fatally so because they can't

320
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 1: generate ATP in adequate amounts. But of course that's not

321
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,160
Speaker 1: what people are using methylene blue form.

322
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's like, okay, so we're in a bag

323
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 3: no methylene blue yet, Perry, we're not ready for it.

324
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

325
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 3: So the electron transport chain inside the mitochondria, it takes

326
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 3: the electrons and their high energy state, it turns them

327
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 3: into a TP.

328
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

329
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 3: In a person without where that process is generally working. Fine.

330
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,960
Speaker 3: There is no meaning to the phrase my mitochondria are tired.

331
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 3: They aren't tired. You could be tired, and that is

332
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 3: the thing. People get tired, people get fatigued. It's a

333
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,639
Speaker 3: experience people have. It's not because your mitochondria are like

334
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 3: only sort of slowly. They're not like, ah, too many

335
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 3: electrons today, Like I just I want to take a

336
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 3: nap and not move so many. Like that's not how

337
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 3: this works. They're not tired. That's it's not a person.

338
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,160
Speaker 3: It's it's not chemical reaction cell.

339
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: But when you hear people talk about mitochondria in the

340
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: wellness space, that's often what it is. It's like it's

341
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 1: like we're going to unleash your mitochondria. We're gonna you know,

342
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 1: we're we're It's as if you've got like a G

343
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: on the motor and you were gonna, you know, whatever

344
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 1: the supplement is. People are hawking, it's gonna nice, you know,

345
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: turn off that that governor and things are going to

346
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: go rippering and you'll feel like you're nineteen again.

347
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 3: And you know, and I think the idea, I see

348
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 3: the idea. The link there, which is like the mitochondria

349
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 3: is making the ATPD. ATP is what's providing you energy.

350
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 3: And it is true that there are things you can

351
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 3: do that would lower your ability to do that. For example,

352
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 3: if you don't have enough glucose these like you know,

353
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,160
Speaker 3: you don't have enough clycogen like, it can't this can't

354
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,480
Speaker 3: work because you need that to stick in to get

355
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: the thing with the high energy to make the ATP

356
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 3: on the other end. So it is true if you

357
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,639
Speaker 3: didn't have enough glucose, yeah, your mitochondria wouldn't be doing

358
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 3: enough and then you'll be tired.

359
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 1: Do you know what else you need to make that

360
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: electron transport chain work is you need something to accept

361
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 1: the low energy electron at the end to like get

362
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 1: it out of the mitochondria.

363
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 3: It's called oxygen.

364
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,119
Speaker 1: That's oxygen. It It turns out if you do not breathe,

365
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,680
Speaker 1: your mitochondria suffer quite dramatically and.

366
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 3: You'll feel tired and also dead. But the mitochondria are

367
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 3: so they're not tired, They're just okay.

368
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: So I have to say, as I was doing the

369
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: like reading again into the etc. And stuff and now

370
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,400
Speaker 1: that I'm paying more attention to the wellness space, I

371
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 1: was making a list of the number of supplements that

372
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: like appear somewhere in the electron transport chain. So here's

373
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: my here's my list of things that are actually in

374
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: the electron transport chain. Not saying that supplements make any

375
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 1: difference here, by the way, I'm just saying, like, here

376
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: they are coenz im q, ten nadh riboflavi and vitamin

377
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,880
Speaker 1: B two sucks and eight vitamin K two magnesium. These

378
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 1: are all things that like biologically speaking, facilitate the work

379
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: of the electron transport chain. And all of those things

380
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: will get marketed to you using the same exact logic

381
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 1: as bethlene blue, which we'll get to, which is like,

382
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 1: don't you want your mitochondria to work better? And I

383
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: think if there's one thing that people need to sort

384
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 1: of understand this a lot, like maybe there's biological plausibility here,

385
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: But just because something is necessary in some amount to

386
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 1: make a biological process work doesn't mean that getting more

387
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 1: of that makes it work better. Like that's just not

388
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: typically how the body works.

389
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 3: It is not okay. So with that background, I hope

390
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 3: people enjoyed this ape bio lesson. Let's talk about methylene blue. So,

391
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 3: methylene blue is a die. It was first prepared in

392
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 3: the late eighteen hundreds by a guy named Henrik Heinrich

393
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 3: presumably Caro as a dye for fabrics. It makes things

394
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 3: blue like fabric or your poop or pee. And it

395
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 3: has the property that it can stain cells and bacteria

396
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,719
Speaker 3: without necessarily killing them. That turns out to be a

397
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: very valuable property because it generates some uses where you

398
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 3: can basically color cells in bacteria, yeah, which is helpful

399
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 3: for various diagnostic things we can talk about. And it

400
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,239
Speaker 3: was originally used in a variety of medical settings like

401
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 3: for UTIs. It may have some efficacy as an anti

402
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 3: malarial although we have much better versions of that now.

403
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: But I will say the thing I did not dig up,

404
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 3: although perhaps you know is like how on Earth did

405
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: people have this fabric dye? And then they were like,

406
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 3: let's try drinking it. There's the link there.

407
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: It's it is really hard. I mean, I don't have

408
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: a one to one link, but I think I can

409
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: tell a story here, which is that you get this

410
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 1: fabric dye in the late eighteen hundreds. This is the

411
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: heyday of you know, microscopy and germ theory, like we're

412
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: starting to categorize bacterias and amibas, and so people are

413
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: really excited about what are called vital dyes, dyes that

414
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: don't kill the thing you're trying to study under the microscope.

415
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: They're just like, dies, kill the thing and then they

416
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: don't move anymore. And so this was really cool. And

417
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: they also saw that it had some anti malarial effects,

418
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: so people started taking it for things like malaria. So

419
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: at least then you've got, okay, there's human data that

420
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: it doesn't kill humans when you take it, and then

421
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: it's really not until I think the year here is

422
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: almost like two thousand and eight, like the early two thousands,

423
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 1: when people started experimenting with methylene blue in cell culture

424
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: to see what its effects would be specifically on oxidative

425
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 1: stress in cells. So one of the things that makes

426
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: methylene blue sort of special is that it can accept

427
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: electrons and give electrons two things we've talked about electrons

428
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: and electron transport chain. This is going to be why

429
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: it's important. And chemists knew that property of it. They

430
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: were actually using methylene blue as an indicator die in

431
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: chemical reactions. So you could if you remember like in chemistry,

432
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: where you would you know, you'd titrate things and like

433
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: it would turn like red, and then you'd add acid

434
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: and it would turn blue. Like those were so fun.

435
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: So methylene blue does that too, because it's an electron

436
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: acceptor and an electron donor depending on the conditions. And

437
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: so it made sense that like, oh, if it can

438
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: do that, maybe it will do something with mitochondria. And

439
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: so people started experimenting with that in you know, in

440
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: vitro in cell culture with some promising results and we

441
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: can talk about those. And I think, like all wellness things,

442
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: you get like one tiny study in a petri dish

443
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: full of cells, and then especially if that thing is

444
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: cheap and already available, and you can just like market

445
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: it without needing approval from the FDA, Like you are

446
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: off to the races man.

447
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: And I think here it is like worth stepping one

448
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 3: step back into the discussion of the electron transport chain

449
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 3: and thinking about why this might matter. So if you

450
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 3: think about methylene blue as like a bus that can

451
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: pick up some electrons and drop them somewhere else, it

452
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 3: is possible if there's like a like a problem in

453
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: the electron transport chain where one of those you know,

454
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: pieces of the dam doesn't open, like in principle, yeah,

455
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: this mall. This could take some of those electrons and

456
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: deliver them to a later part of the transport chain

457
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 3: and kind of bypass something that is that is.

458
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: Exactly like if that valve is stuck between complex one

459
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: and complex two, methylene blue can take an electron from

460
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: complex one and give it straight to complex three. Right,

461
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: And I should say, medically speaking, this has been used

462
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: for cyanide poisoning, so second time cyanide has come up

463
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: on this podcast for longtime listeners. Cyanide blocks the very

464
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: end of the electron transport chain, that step where oxygen

465
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: is there to pick up the low powered electron and

466
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: get rid of it so that things can keep moving

467
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: so it blocks that very end point, and because of

468
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: that ATP synthesis stops and you die. Cyanide is quite poisonous,

469
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: and so again this might be a recurring theme. We

470
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: have better treatments for cyanide toxicity now, but before we did,

471
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: methylene blue was used for this basically to like pick

472
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: up that last electron to kind of keep things moving

473
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: a little bit, even in the presence of cyanide while

474
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: you try to work. It does work. I mean it

475
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: doesn't work. I mean still people died a lot, but

476
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: like it does work. Better than nothing, and not as

477
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: good as you know, the current treatments for cyanide toxicity.

478
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I think that's a good that's a good segue

479
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 3: into the fact that this actually is something with some

480
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: small number of real medical uses, and so one obviously

481
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: is cyanide poisoning in the past. The other usage that

482
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: is still the one FDA approved indication for use of

483
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: methylene blue is for something called acquired methane moglob I

484
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: could say it metemoglobinemia, which is a hemoglobin disorder effectively,

485
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: uh yeah, but can be acquired and is really bad.

486
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Uh. So this is the FDA approved indication metemoglobinemia is

487
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: like your your hemoglobin has an iron atom in the

488
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: middle to pick up oxygen, and that under certain states,

489
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: and like certain drugs do this, like benzocaine toxicity can

490
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: do this. But I guess maybe more more relevant is

491
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: uh IS poppers like those are the recreational drugs, like

492
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: the inhalance alkyl nitrates, so that can reduce the iron

493
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: in hemoglobin to a state that cannot bind oxygen. It

494
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: kind of imagine it like rusts the iron in the hemoglobin,

495
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: so like the iron doesn't work anymore, and this is

496
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: really bad, and like the blood turns this chocolate brown color.

497
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: If you've seen me hemoglobinemia, it is very strange and disturbing.

498
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: It's like it's not dark blue like venus blood. It's

499
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: not bright red. It's brown like hot chocolate. Very weird.

500
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 1: And you need to give an electron back to that

501
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: iron to get it back into its ordinary hemoglobin state.

502
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: And methylene blue, as we've said, can like donate electrons

503
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: under the proper circumstances, can receive electrons under other circumstances.

504
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: That's its main indication. I actually see it as a nephrologist.

505
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: Not infrequently. When I'm rounding in the cardiothoracic intensive care unit,

506
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: you see the folly bag, that's the urine bag, you know,

507
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: next to the bed, and every once in a while

508
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: one is blue, sometimes green if the person is a

509
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: little bit more dehydrated, because yellow and blue makes green.

510
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: And these are people who get methylene blue after heart surgery.

511
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: So if you're on cardiopulmonary bypass, when you put the

512
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: patient back, when you switch their heart back on and

513
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: now they're supporting themselves, they often will have this phenomenon

514
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: called vasoplesia where just like their blood vessels don't they

515
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: kind of like are like floppy and their blood pressure

516
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: just drops extremely and methylene blue. The data is not

517
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: great for this, but it is common practice to use

518
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: methylene blue to sort of reverse that. Post cardiac surgery.

519
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: Vasoplegia probably reduces nitric oxide synthase for the biologists who

520
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: are listening. And the up practical upshot is that I

521
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: see a lot of blue urine when I walk through

522
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: the cardiothoracic I see you, so obviously you should take

523
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: this to make yourself like have more energy from daily life.

524
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: Right, But here is where I think I can see

525
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: why this compound is so like compelling in the wellness space,

526
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: because there are a lot of processes in our body

527
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: for which electrons need to be moved around, not just

528
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: the yes, including the mitochondria function, but also all these

529
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: other things. And now you're sort of listing like, oh, well,

530
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: here's some that you know, someone who has had a

531
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: serious surgery or has like overdosed on poppers or in

532
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: some other way has some kind of diffuse problem that

533
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: involves electrons, and this is the thing that fixes it.

534
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: You can see why you would get to like, well,

535
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: I'm feeling tired, and like I'm you know, maybe I

536
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: need more electrons moving around Like that sounds fun and

537
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: maybe it is going to fix my problem because we

538
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: don't really understand that much about exactly how this is working,

539
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: so it seems plausible. I mean, I think that's the

540
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: that's the kind of interesting thing about all these spaces,

541
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 3: but this one in particular for me.

542
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things I liked about this particular

543
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: topic is because it's not just nonsense. It's not total

544
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: snake oil. It's not you know, it's something that someone

545
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: made up or like homeopathic remedies that have nothing actually

546
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: in them, like it does do things. But let me

547
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: give you a counterpoint for someone who's worried about their

548
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: sleepy mitochondria, which is based on what I just told you.

549
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: Let's say you're mitochondria are working okay, like there isn't

550
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: a blockage. And by the way, I don't know why

551
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: they're why people are like, oh, your mitochondria blocked up,

552
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: Like I don't know why we think that's happening. But

553
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: let's say you have normally functioning mitochondria. You know, so

554
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: you take high energy electrons and they goin jin jing

555
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: down the chain and drive a gradient to make atp

556
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: if I skip a step in that chain artificially, like

557
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: that gives me less energy per unit, right, Like like

558
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: why would if I need to skip a step because

559
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: something's blocked up, that's one thing, but if not, like,

560
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: why would you think this is better? This is, you know,

561
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: short circuiting a system that is supposed to work the

562
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: way it's supposed to work.

563
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was explaining this to my husband the other night,

564
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: for event, and he was like, you know, I just

565
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: don't think you should be messing with your mitochondria. I

566
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: just feel like they're just I feel that they're they

567
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: should just do their thing. And I was like, I

568
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: could I can see that perspective.

569
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: Let the mitochondria be the mitochondria. I'm a big proponent

570
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: of the mitochondria rights movement.

571
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: All right, So let's talk about what the data, what

572
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: some of the data says, because this has this is

573
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: a place where we've had a little bit of you know,

574
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: people trying treatment with this for various things and mostly

575
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: with pretty limited success.

576
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, it's again one of those things

577
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: where if you do it in a small test tube

578
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: with like cells and everything's very carefully done, you can

579
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: generate some interesting results. And then if we scale up

580
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: to full sized humans or even to mice, even to mice,

581
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: we can go through the mice. But let me maybe

582
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: can I I want to touch on one of the

583
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: studies that really got this going, which was a study

584
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: of lung fibroblasts among some other types of cells. So

585
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: these are just these are lung cells in a petri dish,

586
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: and they were looking at the rate at which the

587
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 1: cells would double, which is like a measure of lifespan,

588
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: like how many times can they before they like give

589
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: up and die, right, Like how many kids going to

590
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: have I guess is one way to think about it.

591
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: And the study shows that cells exposed to methylene blue

592
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: compared to you know, treated with a vehicle that doesn't

593
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: contain methylene blue, had a significantly longer lifespan. So okay,

594
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: long fiberbraasts in a petri dish, Okay, but they live longer.

595
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: That's cool. But if you read the study and sorry

596
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: this is in the FACEB Journal, two thousand and eight,

597
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: if you read the study, the cells were all treated

598
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: with either hydrogen peroxide or cadmium, so they were given

599
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: a poison, and particularly poisons that are redox agents, so

600
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: poisons that like messing with electrons would be the appropriate

601
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: treatment for And then they showed that, okay, treatment with

602
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,239
Speaker 1: methylene blue like makes the cells live longer. And I

603
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: just want to point that out that like the devil's

604
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: in the details here. It's not like, oh, these were healthy,

605
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: happy cells that they showed live longer. These were cells

606
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: that were actively being killed by hydrogen peroxide and then

607
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: you add some mathlene blue and they don't get killed

608
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: as much. So I'm level setting again that like there's

609
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: a difference between you just had cardiac surgery and are

610
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: in cardiogenic shock versus like you feel well, sleepy.

611
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then you know, we when they've sort of

612
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 3: moved this into say mice, they've tried to evaluate like

613
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 3: lifespan effects in mice, and they do not find life

614
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 3: span effects in mice. Maybe, so this is a study

615
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: in with an incredibly difficult to pronounce title called arkobose

616
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 3: seven alpha estradol and nordy hydro guanouretic acid extends lifestan

617
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 3: preferentially in males. But what they find here.

618
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: A classic No, no, no, it's great. I just think

619
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: it's hilarious, Like this is. I can guarantee this is

620
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: the only time this study has ever been mentioned by

621
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: full title anywhere in the universe. I think that's very

622
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: special for us.

623
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, congratulations to the twenty three authors of this study.

624
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 3: I have successfully said the title of your paper. But

625
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: unfortunately they do not find treatment with methylene blue improved

626
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,479
Speaker 3: lifespan in even in mice. And this is you know, again,

627
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: when we think about some of these biological some of

628
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: these sort of like there's a biologically plausible argument, then

629
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 3: maybe you go into cells, maybe you see something then

630
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: maybe you go into mice. And there's often times even

631
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: if we see something in mice, then we don't see

632
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 3: it in people. And here we kind of couldn't quite

633
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 3: get to mice. And again that may be a result

634
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 3: of you know, maybe the mice were fine. I don't

635
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 3: think these were unhealthy mice. There's like regular mice and

636
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: the mice maybe it didn't neither electrons to be moved

637
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: around right quite so much.

638
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did Google earlier just to see, like, is

639
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: Brian Johnson taking methylene lean blue? That is influencer that

640
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, is like experiment on himself.

641
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 3: Yes, of course he takes everything.

642
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: Of course he is. He has some posts with like

643
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, the blue tongue. That's the influencers will like

644
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: post their blue tongue because it, you know, stains, It

645
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: stains living tissue.

646
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: And you can also get af from cupcakes. Actually, as

647
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: most parents will know, you can get a blue tongue

648
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: from eating too many frosted cup.

649
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: I mean equally disturbing to me in some sense.

650
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 3: Also that also will make your poop blue.

651
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: By the way, how did the wellness there is something

652
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: about like okay, wait, we like dies now, like what

653
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: about like we put don't we hate only some of

654
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: the like some dies. My friend is yeah anyway, Brian

655
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: Johnson is yes. And I was reading an article about

656
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: like some of the changes in biomarkers from before and

657
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: after he took methleene blue and had the greatest caveat ever,

658
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: which was that unfortunately, during this period of treatment he

659
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: was also taking one hundred other vitamins and supplements.

660
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 3: So it's like like the worst study design ever. I

661
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: change literally everything.

662
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: So great. Anyway, all right, moving on from trying to

663
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: extend your life, let's I think you know, people do

664
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: tend to focus a little bit more on like the

665
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: energy cognition stuff. And I will mention a paper just

666
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: because it comes out in a lot of influencers suggesting

667
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: that the use of methylene blue can maybe improve memory

668
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: a little bit. This is a paper in Radiology twenty sixteen,

669
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: twenty six healthy adults. This is from ut Health, San Antonio.

670
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: And they got just a single dose of methylene blue

671
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: versus placebo, and it was randomized and double blind everything

672
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: you would want. And then an hour later they got

673
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: an fMRI and did some like short term memory tasks

674
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: and after the methylene blue. They had like a seven

675
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: percent increased correct response on the short term memory tag,

676
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: and that's what people will lean on when they're like

677
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: the data that randomized clinical trial data shows that methylene

678
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: blue improves your memory.

679
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: What do you think, m what's the placebo?

680
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,479
Speaker 1: Some pill that did not contain methylene blues?

681
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was I think my first question would

682
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: be here is like did you know, like, did you

683
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: know that you were getting the methylene blue? Was the

684
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: other pill blue?

685
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: I think the other pill was blue, and I think

686
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: it was encapsulated so it wouldn't turn your tongue blue. Yeah, okay,

687
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: so seven percent.

688
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: An hour later, my read of this is like, first

689
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: of all, seven percent is a very small effect. The

690
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 3: P value on this is not aggressive. It's point oh one,

691
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: which is a fine P value. But you know, given

692
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: the number of things that we test and my general

693
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 3: feeling about fMRI machines, I'm not wildly impressed. And also,

694
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: like with many things here, you do a study on

695
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 3: twenty six people, you need to do another study, Like

696
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: maybe there are fifty studies of this and this is

697
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 3: the only one that found this, and it's the only

698
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: one that got published. There's like a publication bias issue.

699
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 3: There are just a lot of reasons why pulling out

700
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: a single study of a small number of people and saying, ah,

701
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 3: there's a statistically significant result at a conventional level is

702
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 3: actually different than saying, you know, we have hard quality

703
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 3: evidence of this being true.

704
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: And whenever you're talking about wellness stuff and you want

705
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: to look at studies, you know studies appropriately so are

706
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: often controlled with placebo. But that's not really the question

707
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: that you, as like an individual, need to ask. Let's

708
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: say I want to improve my memory. The question isn't

709
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: should I take methylene blue or should I take a

710
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: blue colored sugar pill? That's not what my actual question is,

711
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: Like should I take methlene blue? Or should I do

712
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: the New York Times crossword every day? Or should I

713
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: just like practice memory drills on flash cards?

714
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 3: Or or should I sleep more?

715
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: Or should I sleep more or keep more? Should Yeah?

716
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: Like so, I think people are so quick to lean

717
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: on placebo controlled studies that they forget that the problem

718
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: in this space is that there are almost too many choices.

719
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: Brian Johnson's hundred supplements is a problem, Like, that's not

720
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: the right strategy. I'm sure at the very least it's

721
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: incredibly expensive and none of us can afford it.

722
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 3: He's not dead yet. And I think consistent with consistent

723
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: with this view, there are some follow up papers, or

724
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 3: at least later papers that have looked at this question

725
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 3: of cerebral blood flow and oxygen consumption other things which

726
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 3: could be correlates of this, which haven't found that same

727
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 3: kind of impact. So it isn't the case that there's

728
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: this study and then there's a million follow up studies

729
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: with the same kind of kind of thing. We see

730
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 3: some but I would say mixed evidence on mixed evidence

731
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 3: on the brain. Yeah, and none of it is very big.

732
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean there's even some evidence to the contrary.

733
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: Did you see the study that actually maybe look like

734
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: the use of methylene blue decreases blood flow to the brain.

735
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: But again it's like, yeah, so there's a study that

736
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: says it decreases blood flow. Is a study that says

737
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: it increases blood flow? Again, maybe the studies that say

738
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: nothing are just sitting in someone's drawer not published because

739
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: it's not very interesting to publish a paper that says

740
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: I did this with these people and nothing happened. Fair enough,

741
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: very hard to publish a null finding. That's something we

742
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 3: can talk about.

743
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:27,959
Speaker 1: Oh, I've been there.

744
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's actually pause on that, because I think this

745
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: is something we can talk about more in other contexts.

746
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 3: But when you are reading papers that are published, you

747
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 3: want to remember that there are many studies that happen

748
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: that do not get published, and we are more likely

749
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: to see things published if the result is significant in

750
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: one way or the other. Right, if you think about, like,

751
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 3: what is the journal looking for? Usually looking for something

752
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: that's significant or surprising.

753
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: Or you know, yeah, impactful.

754
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so there is a thing called publication bias,

755
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 3: which is why we less frequently see null results, which

756
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: means results where the effect was zero. Then we might

757
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: expect to because many of those things get run and

758
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 3: then just no one ever reports out on them.

759
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, sadly, there is maybe one area and I'm actually

760
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: curious if you're going to agree with me on this,

761
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: but there is one area that I think methylene blue

762
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: might actually work. And that's for mood. All right, you're

763
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: making skeptical face.

764
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 3: Uh, give a pitch.

765
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: Let's let's test this out. Okay. One of the things

766
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: that methylene blue does is inhibits something called monoamine. Oxidase.

767
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: It is an MAO inhibitor, And does that ring a

768
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: bell to anyone? Does I ever remember what the MAO

769
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: inhibitors were. Maybe not, because these are pretty old drugs.

770
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: MAO inhibitors were the first antidepressants. They were invented, like

771
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties. Monomineoxidase in the brain

772
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: breaks down serotonin, dopamine and stuff like that. So if

773
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: you inhibit that, the levels of serotonin and dopamine in

774
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: your brain go up, and it has an antidepressant effect,

775
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: and they do work. They're actually still used today for

776
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: refractory depression. But there's a reason that we don't use

777
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: MAO inhibitors anymore, and that's because the side effects are

778
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: quite brutal. It has this effect where if you're on

779
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: MAO inhibitors, you can't eat like certain aged cheeses or

780
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: other things that contain tyramine because you can get dramatic

781
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: spikes in blood pressure due to a difficulty to metabolize

782
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: tyramine that can be life threatening. And so MAO inhibitors.

783
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: Once SSRIs came out and tricyclic antidepressants came out, MAO

784
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: inhibitors just kind of like because of that side effect,

785
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: profile went to the wayside. But methylene blue is an

786
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: MAO inhibitor. We have good in vitro documentation that it

787
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: is an MAO inhibitor at doses that people take, and

788
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: with a potency that is similar to some of the

789
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: pharmacologic MAO inhibitors. I've got a human study from nineteen

790
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: eighty seven.

791
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, Okay, okay, fifteen people, what how many people?

792
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: There is number of.

793
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: People thirty patients with severe depression who got daily methylene

794
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: blue for three weeks in addition to their existing treatment

795
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: versus match placebo, and they had a significant reduction in

796
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: depression scores. That's back in nineteen eighty seven, before the SSRIs.

797
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 1: We're really up and going. But there's even a study

798
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen which took thirty seven patients with bipolar

799
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: disorder and randomized them to methylene blue for three months

800
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: and then cross them over in a random order to

801
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: a placebo for three months, and they had significant improvement

802
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: in depression scores. And so I'm going to argue Emily

803
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: that it's an MAO inhibitor. It's not a regulated MAO inhibitor.

804
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: You're not getting it prescribed by a doctor. We have

805
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: some randomized trial data that suggests it improves depression scores.

806
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: People say it gives them some energy. Maybe they're just

807
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: taking an MAO inhibitor.

808
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 3: Okay, I will say I I'm going to say a

809
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 3: few things. So First, I am generally skeptical of a

810
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 3: literature that has thirty years between papers studies, and each

811
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 3: of which have like thirty people in them. You know,

812
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: it's just like if this were a very effective version

813
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: of this, I think we would have seen more of it.

814
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 3: The second thing I will say is, even if this

815
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: is true, I don't think it's very important because if

816
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 3: someone is struggling with depression, we have much better treatments

817
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 3: than this. Now.

818
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: We have treatments that are stigmatized.

819
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 3: We have treatments that are are are the I mean,

820
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 3: I feel like we've made progress on that. I think.

821
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: I think in particular, there's like in the wellness space,

822
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: there's this like very there's this undercurrent that's highly skeptical

823
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: of things like SSRIs, I mean, even skeptical of psychiatry.

824
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 3: I guess. But I think to say like we should

825
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 3: have it people, like we should encourage people to take

826
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 3: this because their skepticis there no, no, no, And obviously

827
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: you're not saying, but I think what I would say

828
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 3: is like if you just sort of look at from

829
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 3: a science if somebody came to me and they said,

830
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 3: I'm struggling with depression, should I take methylene blue, my

831
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: answer would be no, you should go talk to a

832
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 3: doctor and see if you can get on one of

833
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 3: the many effective treatments for depression, or think about non

834
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 3: pharmacological remedies like exercise, and so, depending on kind of

835
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 3: where you are in this in this space, I think

836
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 3: the other the third thing I will say is that

837
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 3: one of the risks associated with methylene blue is it

838
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 3: interacts in a dangerous way with serotonin inhibitors. So the

839
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 3: thing I would really worry about is people who are

840
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 3: on an SSRI who decide to take this as like

841
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: a like a boost up in their antidipression. That is

842
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 3: actually incredibly risky.

843
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: Super risky black box warning on the FDA label for

844
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: methylene blue because of this. Because you can't mix MAO

845
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: inhibitors and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors together, you get something

846
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: called serotonin syndrome, which is terrible super high blood pressures,

847
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: fevers out of control, like muscle problems can be life

848
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: threatening and fatal, so you definitely can't mix those two things.

849
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: I think I'm more sort of bringing this issue up

850
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: as like maybe people aren't like I'm clinically depressed, but

851
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that there are more people walking

852
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: around with some depression than are diagnosed with depression, and

853
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: maybe they don't recognize it themselves, and maybe it's not pure.

854
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not full blown like major depressive disorder. Maybe

855
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: it's dysthymia, which is kind of it's like the medical

856
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: term for like you're just not great. And if a

857
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: person who's in that state decides to take some methylene blue,

858
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: maybe just for energy, and it kind of bumps their

859
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: moon up a little bit, does that like reinforce the

860
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 1: idea like, Wow, this thing works. I feel different because

861
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: I think I think it can make you feel different.

862
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you should take it, but it has

863
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: potential neurologic effects.

864
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 3: I feel like you're just making an argument for the

865
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 3: placebo effect. I feel like you're just saying, like, if

866
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: you you know there's a lot of people walk around

867
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 3: with able depressions, benefit from thinking that you're taking something

868
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: that helps them, and like, yeah, sure, the placebo effect is,

869
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: as I've said many times, it's one of our best effects. Yeah,

870
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 3: and so I can see it working for that reason.

871
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it seems like there are

872
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 3: many other things without any risks that don't turn your

873
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: pee blue that also work as a placebo. And then

874
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 3: some things like exercise which aren't even like have treatment

875
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: effects on this, that aren't a placebo.

876
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, couldn't agree more. Let's mention risks, because now I

877
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: feel bad that I've been like, hey, everybody, it's a free,

878
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: cheap antidepressant.

879
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 3: It's like and later we'll be get we'll be put it.

880
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: See the link in the show notes for Perry.

881
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: It's actually rand doctor Wilson's special methylene blue preparation turns

882
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: your pee glow in the dark. You know what there

883
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: is glowing the dark?

884
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: Pea.

885
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 3: Oh, why does that happen?

886
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: Okay, it's it's it's it's actually a little sad. But

887
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: people who drink ethylene gly call, which is anti freeze.

888
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Uh it, I don't even know if I should say this.

889
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: It's sweet tasting and it does make you feel drunk.

890
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: It's also highly highly toxic. Some people drink it as

891
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: a suicide attempt. Some people drink it because it makes

892
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: you feel drunk. But anti freeze has a chemical in

893
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: it that glows in the dark, so you can see

894
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: spills with a UV light. So when we are suspicious

895
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 1: that someone has consumed ethylene GLYCLL, we can go to

896
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: the ED and we can put a little YOU light

897
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: on their urine and if it glows, that is a

898
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: quick way to make the diagnosis.

899
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: Wow. Cool, right, your job is unusual. Okay, let's talk

900
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 3: about the risks. So we talked about the serotonin risks.

901
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 3: So if you're on an SSRI absolutely counter indicated, do

902
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 3: not take this. It is very dangerous.

903
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: You could die good. Another big risk is that it's

904
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: un like so many things, unregulated, not tested by the FDA.

905
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: If you google methylene blue, you'll find that methylene blue

906
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: is in aquarium tank treatments. It can, you know, help

907
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: some parasites on your fish or something like that. Don't

908
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: take that kind of methylene blue. Like that's even less

909
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: tested than the stuff that you can buy that are

910
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: actually marketed to humans. But just to say it out

911
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: loud and then the other thing is if you have

912
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: G six pd deficiency, methylene blue can cause homolysis and

913
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: you don't know if you have G six pd deficiency.

914
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: About two percent of the population does, and there's no

915
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: reason you would particularly be aware of it unless you

916
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: are about to be treated with a medication that interacts

917
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: with G sixpd, in which case we test you first

918
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: before we give you that medication. Methylene blue is one

919
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: of those medications. So yeah, unless you've already been ruled

920
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: out for G six pd deficiency, something to think about.

921
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: All right, Perry, are you a smash or pass? I'm

922
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 3: methylene I'm a pass on. Methylene blue is not going

923
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 3: to shock polymarket. Sorry everyone, I'm a pass.

924
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: This at best is an MAO inhibitor, which is a

925
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: pretty bad anti depressant that we gave up on long ago.

926
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: And at worst, it's something that you're going to waste

927
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: your money on and it's going to turn your p

928
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: fun colors. I mean, reasonable party trick, but not worth

929
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: your wellness dollar. Emily smash pass.

930
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: I'm a pass. I think to say that this is

931
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 3: something that is dangerous for two percent of the population

932
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: plus anyone on an SSRI feels like already significant downsides

933
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 3: on top of there being no real upsides so that

934
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: we are aware of for healthy people. So I'm I'm

935
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: a past but I did enjoy learning more about the

936
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 3: electron transport chain.

937
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, this's a good biology episode.

938
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: Good biology episode, good bio. I'm gonna have my kids

939
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: listen to it, you know.

940
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: Perfect. That's it for Bethlene Blue your male back question

941
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: the week after the break. Hey, emilyam Perry, here's one

942
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,439
Speaker 1: for you. I am a knuckle cracker. Am I going

943
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: to give myself athritis? Do you crack your knuckles?

944
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 3: No? I don't. I think I used to, but I don't,

945
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,479
Speaker 3: and I don't think I could do it anymore. Maybe

946
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 3: I'm just old.

947
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: Do you try? I don't, but I think I could.

948
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: Should We let's see if you can. Oh, our producer

949
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: is like freaking out right now.

950
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, my thumb. I can crack one of them, one.

951
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: Of my hands. That's good audio. Emily's cracking knuckles bad

952
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: for you?

953
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: Get Cracking knuckles is not bad. It doesn't give you arthritis.

954
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 3: And I want to read you. This is a great

955
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: opportunity for me because my favorite paper in the whole

956
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 3: wide world of academic papers is about this topic, okay.

957
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 3: It is a nineteen ninety eight letter to the editor

958
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 3: in a journal called Arthritis and Rheumatism. Here's how it starts.

959
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 3: During the author's childhood, various renowned authorities, his mother, several aunts,

960
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 3: and later his mother in law informed him that cracking

961
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: his knuckles would lead to arthritis of the fingers. And

962
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 3: then the author explains the study he performed. For fifty years,

963
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 3: the author cracked the knuckles of his left hand at

964
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 3: least twice a day, leaving those of the on the

965
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 3: right as a control. Thus, the knuckles on the left

966
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: were cracked at least thirty six five hundred times, while

967
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 3: those on the right were cracked barely. At the end

968
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 3: of the fifty years, the hands were compared for the

969
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 3: present barthritis, and he concludes he has no northritis in

970
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,479
Speaker 3: either hand and as a result, knuckle cracking doesn't matter.

971
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 3: And I just love so very much this paper by

972
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 3: Donald Hunger m d Oh.

973
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: My gosh, doctor, I salute you.

974
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 3: That is yes, but we actually have some larger scale evidence.

975
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 3: It also shows that there's there's no data we do.

976
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: Do you know what the sound comes from?

977
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 5: You?

978
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: I don't.

979
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: So it was always like people were like, oh, is

980
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: that the bones kind of moving against each other. It's not.

981
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: There was an MRI study that actually like captured what

982
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: was happening in the joint at the time the knuckles

983
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: were cracked, and apparently it's what's called cavity formation, which

984
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: happens when I guess, when certain fluids are moved very rapidly,

985
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: so like if you've seen a propeller underwater of a boat,

986
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: like how bubbles will form behind it, even though like

987
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: it's not like sucking bubbles. I'm from the surface right

988
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: like like a submarine. You know, it's like that. That's

989
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: cavitary bubble formation, and a tiny little version of that

990
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: happens in your joint when you crack your knuckles, and

991
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: that makes the sound that.

992
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 3: Is very interesting. People will sometimes also ask like, once

993
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: you do it, you have to keep doing it, because

994
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 3: one people do it, then they keep then they do

995
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 3: keep doing it. But that's called habit formation. That's not

996
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 3: a medical thing. So anyway, if you want to crack

997
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 3: your knuckles, it's fine.

998
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: But uh, from tomorrow, our producer.

999
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 3: People, our producer doesn't like it. So if you're spending

1000
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 3: time with our producer tomorrow Please do not crack.

1001
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: Your knuckles about to crawl under the table.

1002
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 3: All right, that's it for us today. Stick with us

1003
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 3: next week when we'll ask what's the deal with red

1004
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 3: meat and the carnivore diet. Wellness Actually is produced in

1005
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 3: association with iHeartMedia. Our senior producer is Tamar Avishaik. Our

1006
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 3: executive producer at iHeart is Jennifer Bassett. Our theme music

1007
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 3: is by air Joys, and our content is for educational

1008
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: purposes only.

1009
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: If you like the show, help other people find us.

1010
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: Leave a reading and review on Apple Podcasts or your

1011
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: podcatcher of choice and help us spread the word about

1012
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: the show. You can follow us on Instagram at Wellness

1013
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: Actually pod and don't forget We want to hear from you.

1014
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: Head over to Wellness Actually dot fm and leave us

1015
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: a question for our mailbag or suggest a topic for

1016
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: a future show.

1017
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 3: We'll let the influencers have the last word. The reason

1018
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 3: I argue so effectively so I'm absolutely out of my mind.

1019
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 3: On Methyline Blue, you can get it.

1020
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: Go try reborn dot com and get it in pill

1021
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: form if you don't like the avatar tongue, or you

1022
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: can get it this one. Do it properly if you're

1023
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: gonna do it dear right.

1024
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 3: And I still regret to this day not being an

1025
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 3: intravenious heroin addict.

1026
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: So there's no way I'm going to get by with

1027
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: just shoving Methlin Blue peels up my ass when I

1028
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: could be taking it straight down the garland like a man.

1029
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: That's