WEBVTT - Star Wars Week 2026, Part 2: Way of the Sith 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.800 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.760 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:16.480 is Robert. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.720 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we are returning 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:23.600 today with the second part in our Star Wars week series. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.160 In the last episode, we focused exclusively on the ice 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.600 planet Hawth from the Empire Strikes Back. We took a 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.360 close look at tonton physiology and how that relates to 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.560 realities from paleontology in the real world, about theropod dinosaurs 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:43.640 that lived in freezing Arctic and Antarctic conditions in the 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.480 Cretaceous period. We also talked about the real world viability 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.880 of the infamous Taunton sleeping bag. The whole segment there 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.520 about you know, how long can you survive inside a 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.280 gutted horse and a frozen environment? And then finally we 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.560 looked at the ecology of the carnivorous beast of hawk, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.280 the Wampa. So if you haven't heard part one, i'd 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.959 recommend go check that one out first. But for today 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.360 we're going to be changing gears and focusing on some 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.759 sith psychology topics or maybe a general episode on Sith science. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.040 Yes, yes, and you know I was thinking maybe I 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.040 should have actually worn my black hoodie all the way 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.880 for a Sith episode, you know, But you applied less 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.560 I cream that sort of thing, do we. But it's 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:29.760 too late for that. We have to go with what 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:30.160 I got. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.680 It is too late for you, now, Okay, Well, why 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:36.560 don't you take things first. I know we both have 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.080 our own sort of Sith psychology topics we want to address, 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.480 but you have a very good one that I'm keen 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:43.280 for us to get to. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.160 Yeah, yeah, I guess first we'll just briefly mention what 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.280 the Sith are. I think everyone listening to this has 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.360 a pretty good idea. But yeah, we're talking about the 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.800 bad guys of the majority of the Star Wars films. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.480 This is the dark Side Force religion, dark Side Forlhilosophy 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.120 and also an ancient warrior cult that long existed in 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.480 stark opposition to the Jedi order. And while the Jedi 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.720 stressed balance and equanimity, the Sith embraced the power of 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.880 negative emotional states. Using those states is their key to 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:22.840 force manipulation, harnessing this submerged power of the Force, and 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.360 they seek both worldly and otherworldly power through violent oppression. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:32.880 That sounds about right, hate, anger, viciousness, selfishness. That they 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.720 don't only practice these things, they conceptually embrace them. They say, yes, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.560 that's what I am, and it's what I'm for. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:44.600 Yeah, red light, sabers, black hooded figures, that sort of thing. 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.240 You know, they have their own esthetic that they cling 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.440 to as well. And you know, just as the Jedi 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.720 are based in large part on a number of Eastern concepts, 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.160 we can look to various examples of the Siths sort 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.600 of dark magic and say Dallas tradition, where it might 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.840 be portrayed as an imbalance of Yin and Yang, favoring 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.320 the subtle, hidden darkness of Yen. Not in this context 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.160 because Yen is evil, but because everything has to be balanced, 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.640 and if you're presuming something that is lopsided, that is 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.880 out of balance, well then it can become a dark path. Well. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.040 Not to get overly nerdy, but I do now recall 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.880 some of the temptations offered by Sith lords in the 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.200 Star Wars movies often are bids for balance, right like 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:35.480 it doesn't At this point, Senator Palpatine explain his knowledge 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.200 of the dark side of the Forest to the young 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.480 Anakin by saying that we have to understand both sides, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.160 not just the dogmatic one side of the Jedi. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.880 Yeah, this is pretty fascinating, and this is also a 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.480 trend or thread anyway that is discussed later in some 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:53.520 of the sequel materials as I remember this idea that 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.360 you know, maybe it's like the Jedi are not the 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.000 ultimate answer either, but there's some sort of ultimate in between, 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.640 a balance of forces that there has to be darkness 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.480 in light, and you know, certainly would be more in 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:10.920 keeping with with with Dallas philosophy, for example, but even 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.480 in Dallas treatment of magic, you know, there's a lot 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.160 of talk about, you know, what happens when your interests 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:23.919 become increasingly driven by ego or or focused on harmful intent. 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.760 And then you couple this with a desire for immortality, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.400 but not immortality for any noble reason, but just for 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.680 selfishness or and hunger for power, and yet then it 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:38.120 becomes a dark road. But yeah, there's there's an interesting 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.680 case to be made, and perhaps it's exactly the kind 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.120 of case of Sith Lord would make that the path 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.240 of the Jedi is also one of imbalance, that if 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.719 you ignore these dark paths, something else is out of line. 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.760 And you know, certainly we see case after case of 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.760 light Jedi that ends up falling into darkness, and maybe 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.680 that because there's sort of a pendulum situation in place here. 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.839 Yeah, that is interesting. So there is some truth to 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.720 the idea of the narrowness of the Jedi. Yet at 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.000 the same time, I think, at least within the prequel films, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.000 I know, this bid for balance that Palpatine makes is 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.159 ultimately revealed to be a false temptation. Oh it is, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.800 you know, it's not it's not actually bringing Anakin or 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:29.479 Palpatine to a place of greater, more harmonious understanding. It 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.000 is a bid to like, no, why don't you try it? Come, 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.800 come taste the dark side? Ya, that's really the operative 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:35.480 thing there. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:41.479 Yeah, Darthsidius slash Emperor Palpatine, you know, tremendous villain, but 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:47.719 also absolutely a villain, Absolutely a murderous, hateful, mass murdering, 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:52.279 genocidal ruler. So yeah, without any doubt he is the 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:53.400 villain in the scenario. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.760 But there's never just one Sith villain, is there. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.960 That's right. Star Wars fans are well aware of the 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.280 Sith rule of two, which, if you dig into the 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.120 lore reportedly was instituted by Sith Lord Darth Bain after 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.400 the Dark Force Order Slash religion was nearly eradicated by 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.279 the Jedi Order during the Jedi Sith War. And as 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.520 the part of this too is that the apparently the 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.200 Old Republic era Sith, this is back when there were 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.320 a lot of Sith. There's a whole full fledged faction 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:27.640 like you might encounter in the Knights of the Old 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.880 Republic games. They were apparently plagued by infighting, and this 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.280 restructuring was also intended to provide increased stability as well 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.880 as secrecy that would enable the Scith to not only 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.960 survive long enough to regain their power, but also to 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.920 eventually enact some sort of horrible vengeance against the Jedi. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.880 But so functionally, what is the Sith rule of two? 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:53.360 All right? 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.800 So basically it is that we're going to reduce this 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:01.280 entire Force Religion, Dark Side Force Relie to a two 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:06.560 person religious order, a two person organization for the most part. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.400 And as we mentioned in the last episode, you know, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.160 we're not going to be completely dogmatic when it comes 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.760 to the law here. Realizing that within Canon Star Wars 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.280 fandom and extended universe lore legends, if you will. There 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:21.800 are going to be a lot of additional facts, and 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.200 we're happy to talk about all of that in over 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.240 email and we can get into it and listener mail, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.920 but we're going to deal pretty broad strokes for the 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.320 most part here. Now. 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.240 While we always do accept factual corrections, I will say 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.160 if you're too pedantic about star Wars low, you may 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.360 be in for some light ribbing if we address it 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:41.160 in listener may. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.680 Yeah, yeah, all right, so yeah, always too. There are 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:50.000 a master and an apprentice from Bain onward the Sith. 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.040 They're able to exist in near secrecy for roughly a 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.840 thousand years. A master, the master of the two, holds 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:01.880 absolute power, while the apprentice craves that power, eventually inevitably 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.440 slaying their own master and taking on a new apprentice 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.760 to continue the chain. So the apprentice kills the master, 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.000 becomes the new master, finds a new apprentice, and this 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.440 chain continues with various ins and outs. Tell the Sith 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:20.720 apprentice Darth Sidius, slays his master, Darth Plagus, and takes 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.000 on a series of apprentices himself, ultimately failing to pass 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.280 the mantle of Sith Lord on to anybody else. However, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.120 of course, Sidius does largely succeed in the long term 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.520 Sith goal of eradicating the rival Jedi order, So. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.600 From his point of view, he gets a lot done, 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.360 but he does not successfully pass on the torch to 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:46.160 an apprentice, right or pass on the torch? Well, okay, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.600 I actually have a question. I maybe you don't know 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.040 the answer, but if you do, are the Sith aware 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.600 they're like explicitly aware that it goes the apprentice, kills 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.200 the master and then takes it takes the master's place, Like, 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.760 do they have this in mind? It's like part of 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:04.200 the plan. 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.320 Well, I haven't, to my memory, I haven't read a 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.800 novelization or or encountered any media that like directly gets 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.480 into this. I'm sure they do. But my sort of 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.160 gut read on all of this is that you're dealing 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:24.840 with with very egotistical individuals, and I can easily imagine 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.640 that as the apprentice, you know this is the way 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.320 things go, and you know that the pattern has always 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.240 been that the new dark Lord then takes on an apprentice, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.320 and that apprentice rises up and kills the paster. But 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.599 you can easily imagine that once the individual becomes the 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.360 dark Lord, they probably think they are the exception to 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:44.800 the rule. 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:49.040 I am different, Yes, very perceptive, Yes, that must be 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:49.480 that way. 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:51.440 Yeah. Or and in the same way that you know, 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.880 you will have you know, various individuals throughout history who 0:09:54.920 --> 0:10:01.160 recognize the the basic power structure that allows them to 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.480 take power, but then reject it as soon as it 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.160 is also the means to their own exit from power. 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.439 So when you see that time and time again. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.440 A standard part of the Tyrants playbook, and it is 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.400 powered by Hubris. Yeah, thinking that I'm different, the rules 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.440 don't apply to me like they do to everybody. 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.040 Else, right, right, So I wanted to get into the 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.559 rule to here a little bit, you know, to be clear. 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.960 It fulfills its main purpose in that it is it 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.760 makes for great drama, it makes for great lore, and 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.720 you know, ultimately we're talking about Black Magic Space Wizards. 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.600 So it's silly to get too serious about all of this, 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.880 but I think it's also fun fun to in good 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:45.200 faith do some computation on this question. Okay, so let's 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:49.480 start with just the realm of secrecy again. The Sith 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.280 want to stay very secretive throughout this rebuilding phase so 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.920 that they can eventually carry out their vengeance, make sure 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.079 the Jedi forget about us, and then we can rise up. 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.720 So there is of course an old adage that reminds 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:06.880 us that three can keep a secret if two of 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.959 them are dead, And the logic is that secrets can 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.520 only effectively be kept by parties of one. And I 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.520 don't know that there's much to be gained by going 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.680 into a lot of game theory on this one. I 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.600 originally thought I might go in that direction, but at 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.000 the end of the day, a lot of this comes 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.280 down to the advantages gained by keeping or revealing secrets. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.360 And very broadly, the whole Sith rule of two depends 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.600 on the master keeping at least some secrets of power 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.559 to themselves, and then the promise of those secrets and 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.240 power is the sole thing driving the apprentice, both their 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:45.040 loyalty and their eventual betrayal of their master. But all things, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.280 I mean, all things considered equal, if you reduce your 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.959 organization to just two people, you're probably going to have 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.719 a much easier time keeping things secret. There's going to 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.240 be fewer leaks that way, fewer people exiting the company 0:11:59.320 --> 0:11:59.959 and so forth. 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.240 Yeah, it is hard for me to imagine a model 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.600 by which adding more people to the conspiracy decreases the 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.720 odds of being leaked. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:13.280 Yeah. Yeah, two people secrecy, two people conspiracy makes sense. However, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.200 coming back to that whole if two are dead, example, 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.840 secrets are best kept when everyone is dead. And the 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.960 kicker is that having us a secrets a secret society 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.720 of two is in fact very close to the absolute 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.160 secrecy that comes with death, which leads us to our 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.000 next consideration, and that is stability of your organization, your 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.120 two person organization moving across time. 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:37.800 Yeah. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:38.560 Yeah. 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.800 One thing I was thinking about is if there is 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.480 only one master and one apprentice, and you consider the 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.120 Master the expert in the dark side of the force. 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.920 If the Master dies before the apprentice's training is complete, 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.640 doesn't that mean that some expertise has just been lost? Yeah, 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.520 like nobody else knows it, nobody has act it. 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:02.240 There are so many ways that can go wrong. Like, 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.360 another way I was thinking about is if the Master 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.760 becomes hesitant to in some way let go of his power. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.040 And this is this is kind of difficult to hash 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.760 out because like the Master traditionally only gives up his 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.800 power when he is killed. But then the model is 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.160 sort of a passing of the baton. But if the 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.560 Master is too good at not being killed, he might 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.040 eventually get bumped off by a rather undeserving apprentice, you know, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.479 like like he eventually like he's just defeated one apprentice 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.079 is like fifth apprentice, he brings in a sixth apprentice. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.000 This guy's just as green as grass. But the Master 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.839 is so old and so weakened from these various secession 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.679 battles that he's just knocked off really easily. And now 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.640 the whole order is left in the hands of someone 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.120 who has no idea what they're doing. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:50.520 Yeah, it's a problem. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.439 Yeah, and then how are you going to build up 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.559 your your, your, your, your momentum to take out the 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.600 Jedi Order at that point? Yeah, So yeah, the ideas 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.840 this chain of Master and apprentice has to continue undisrupted 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.320 across the centuries, centuries again, during which the Sith are 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.640 supposedly keeping a low profile. But you know, these guys 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.360 don't mean they're doing nothing. They're staying isolated, but they're 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.679 still going to encounter threats and dangers. You know that 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.960 they're going to have their own adventures, and there's probably 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.200 going to be one or two crackpot Jedi out there 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.760 who are convinced that the Sith are still out there 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:27.600 and we should maybe try and hunt them down. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.360 I mean, if we just take the case of Darth Sidius, 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.280 I say, even within your own execution of plans, there 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.480 seems to be a lot of danger. There's you know, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:40.080 all these ruses with being kidnapped by Droid separatists and 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.520 things like that, placing yourself in an awful lot of danger, 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:48.040 especially when you are the only repository of Sith knowledge. Now, well, 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.000 I guess not the only one at this point, because 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.160 when that happened, there was still a Dooku out there, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:52.680 wasn't there. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.120 Yeah, But always, you know, there's always the sense that 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.080 he is holding something back. There are secrets he's not 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.040 going to pass on yet, even though we do catch 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.800 him more or less in a lie here with Anakin, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.400 because he's like, I know how people can live forever. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.240 I know how to bring the dead back to life. 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.480 And then once he actually brings Anakin into the fold, 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.520 he's like, we've got some work to do on this, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.440 but I have some great leads on the answer to 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:17.000 this question. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.440 Who would have thought it that Sith lords will lie, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.400 they will sometimes make false promises. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:38.840 Yeah, yeah, so well, one, there are obviously several problems, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.240 potential problems with this setup. So even if this is 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.000 a stable system, so you know, at least you know, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.240 through these long centuries of not making huge swings to 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.560 take over the republic, how much work can the sith 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.960 get done given that they're an asymmetrical two person organizations. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.600 So again, not even like a full partnership, but a 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:03.960 master and apprentice set up. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.000 Very good question. I actually just have some more questions 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:08.960 occurring to me, but I'm want to let you go 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:09.640 with this first. 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.600 Okay, So, I mean, obviously corporations and governments they have 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.600 a hard time keeping secrets, but they can also do 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.360 things that at a much larger scale, at industrial scale. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.160 But you know, presumably one of the main reasons that 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.320 a Sith lord takes on an apprentice at all is 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.160 that they need a powerful underling. They need some help. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.920 It's not a one person job. And yeah, they may 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.120 have a small network of less powerful minions, and some 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.160 of these minions may have there's no idea of what 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.360 their master's all about. You know, it may be a 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.360 hidden identity like oh we don't we don't work for 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.920 a dark lord. We work for a senator, or or 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.120 you know, whatever the cover story may be. But yeah, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.160 it seems like you're going to be very limited in 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.520 what you can do, and therefore any kind of like 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:58.800 vengeance you're planning against, you know, a major interplanetary civilization, 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.240 it's going to take some time building that up. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:02.800 Yeah, totally. 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:09.920 We also might look at this greatly reduced and sustained 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.639 reduced population of two as an extreme bottleneck for an organization. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.600 I've recently been reading about various new religious movements, and 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.720 by and large you tend to find that a two 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.679 person religion, which essentially is what the sith are in 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.280 this case, it constitutes either the beginning or the end 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.440 of a religion, not so much the heyday of it. 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:36.920 I think I would have known even without looking ahead 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.600 in the notes which examples you may be thinking of here. 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.480 But it does strike me as common that at the 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:47.240 beginning of a new religious movement, it's often not just 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.920 one person preaching or crying in the wilderness. It's one 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.440 person and another loyalist. There's somebody there to be giving 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.960 the message and somebody else there to be saying that's right. 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.720 Yeah, Yeah, I think you can look at a number 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.840 of new religious movements where you have a pair of 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.720 individuals sometimes following into falling into the roles of visionary 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.560 on one hand, an organizer on the other. Uh, and 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.800 that between the two of them they're able to sort 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.000 of codify the faith in its early goings. And also 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.200 there might be even be in some cases a kind 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.159 of like shared paranoia, you know, like the two individuals 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.359 can really be a think tank for the creation of 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.600 some sort of new faith, you know, and really enhancing 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.000 whatever the kind of outside viewpoint or outside worldview is 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:43.480 being nurtured in this in this partnership. So two examples 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.640 that came to my mind. First of all, the Heaven's 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.880 Gate religious group at its peak had hundreds of members, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.680 but initially consisted of just Marshall apple White and Bonnie Nettles, 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.880 who developed and largely solidified the teachings that would gain 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.120 masses of followers. A second example that comes to mind 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.199 is that from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty five, the 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.040 United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing, or the Shakers. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.280 Some of you may have Shakers on the brain because 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.639 it was the topic The founding of the Shakers was 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.080 covered in the excellent film The Testament of Anne Lee, 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.680 which I highly recommend, really good view. During between twenty 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:27.840 seventeen and twenty twenty five, they were reduced to just 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:32.000 two followers, and this was due, I believe, in large part, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.720 among other factors, to the group's key teachings against procreation. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:41.240 Hard to really build up your follower base whilst in 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.280 the movement you're not supposed to have any offspring. Now 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.000 I'm to understand they've subsequently absorbed a third member, but 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.879 unless something drastically changes, it's hard to imagine that this 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:56.440 group's stability is improving and that they're on the upswing. Incidentally, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.040 it has also been reported that Heaven's Gate is currently 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.639 reduced to two members active and kind of a caretaker 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.680 role for the movement's website and publications. But again also 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.159 not a case where I think there's a strong argument 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:10.800 to be made that Heaven's Gate has a big future 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.000 ahead of them in terms of you know, building up 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.920 those followers. Right. So, yeah, you could see the synergy 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.680 of a two person religious movement as a great sort 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.840 of consolidation engine, and maybe there's even against shared paranoia 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.639 that helps cement a radical worldview, and I think a 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:29.959 lot of that rather fits the Sith. You can imagine 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.200 this loan Sith Lord and Sith Apprentice like out there 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.920 in the galactic wilderness just getting like crazier and crazier 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.480 and more overflowing with hatred, and it just you know, 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:48.800 solidifies various aspects of their philosophy. But you know, if 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.640 the Faith undergoes changes during these tenures, during these little 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.800 think tank periods, well what happens if it undergoes too 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.560 much change? One can easily imagine it doing so, and 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.040 that would to put the whole like you know, multi 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.200 generational enterprise in some sort of jeopardy, because on one hand, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.800 what if the Sith Lord and his apprentice begin introducing 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.239 changes that make the Faith less desirable by others and 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.199 you know, less combatible with a larger world, So it 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.600 might be harder to bring on the next apprentice and 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.639 allow the Faith to continue on into a new generation 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.480 or reach the point where it is able to carry 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.800 out its vengeance. Or what if it makes it like 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.720 more palpable to a larger audience and in doing so, 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.359 brings about the end of the secret small scale you 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:35.760 know niche system that they've put in place. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.199 Now, I actually have a question. I wonder if you 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.640 know the answer to this. In the prequel films, we 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:48.960 see that Anakin Skywalker is lured into apprenticeship with Darth 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:53.639 Sidius under false pretenses like this, This relationship begins, the 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:58.480 mentorship begins without Anakin knowing that he is a Sith Lord, 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.320 and they've already become pretty close and establish some loyalty 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.399 before there is a revelation. Is that a standard recruiting 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.800 pitch or are there a lot of apprenticeships that begin 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.840 with full knowledge that I'm a Sith Lord. I need 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:13.680 a Sith apprentice. 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.760 How about you? I think I'm trying to remember exactly, 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:23.200 but I believe it is more like that with Douku's apprenticeship. 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.960 I think it's a little more out in the open 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.560 like that, So, and you know, you could I think 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.240 there's a I think there's a larger understanding that the 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.200 Sith are not the only Dark Force users in the galaxy. 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.520 So there may be a case where there's already someone 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.800 who's been exploring the dark side of the Force, at 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.280 least in an amateur fashion. Maybe with the even within 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.800