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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we are returning

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Speaker 3: today with the second part in our Star Wars week series.

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Speaker 3: In the last episode, we focused exclusively on the ice

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Speaker 3: planet Hawth from the Empire Strikes Back. We took a

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Speaker 3: close look at tonton physiology and how that relates to

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Speaker 3: realities from paleontology in the real world, about theropod dinosaurs

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Speaker 3: that lived in freezing Arctic and Antarctic conditions in the

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Speaker 3: Cretaceous period. We also talked about the real world viability

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Speaker 3: of the infamous Taunton sleeping bag. The whole segment there

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Speaker 3: about you know, how long can you survive inside a

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Speaker 3: gutted horse and a frozen environment? And then finally we

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Speaker 3: looked at the ecology of the carnivorous beast of hawk,

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Speaker 3: the Wampa. So if you haven't heard part one, i'd

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Speaker 3: recommend go check that one out first. But for today

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Speaker 3: we're going to be changing gears and focusing on some

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Speaker 3: sith psychology topics or maybe a general episode on Sith science.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you know I was thinking maybe I

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Speaker 2: should have actually worn my black hoodie all the way

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Speaker 2: for a Sith episode, you know, But you applied less

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Speaker 2: I cream that sort of thing, do we. But it's

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Speaker 2: too late for that. We have to go with what

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Speaker 2: I got.

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Speaker 3: It is too late for you, now, Okay, Well, why

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Speaker 3: don't you take things first. I know we both have

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Speaker 3: our own sort of Sith psychology topics we want to address,

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Speaker 3: but you have a very good one that I'm keen

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Speaker 3: for us to get to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess first we'll just briefly mention what

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Speaker 2: the Sith are. I think everyone listening to this has

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Speaker 2: a pretty good idea. But yeah, we're talking about the

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Speaker 2: bad guys of the majority of the Star Wars films.

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Speaker 2: This is the dark Side Force religion, dark Side Forlhilosophy

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Speaker 2: and also an ancient warrior cult that long existed in

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Speaker 2: stark opposition to the Jedi order. And while the Jedi

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Speaker 2: stressed balance and equanimity, the Sith embraced the power of

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Speaker 2: negative emotional states. Using those states is their key to

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Speaker 2: force manipulation, harnessing this submerged power of the Force, and

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Speaker 2: they seek both worldly and otherworldly power through violent oppression.

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Speaker 3: That sounds about right, hate, anger, viciousness, selfishness. That they

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Speaker 3: don't only practice these things, they conceptually embrace them. They say, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's what I am, and it's what I'm for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, red light, sabers, black hooded figures, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: You know, they have their own esthetic that they cling

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Speaker 2: to as well. And you know, just as the Jedi

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Speaker 2: are based in large part on a number of Eastern concepts,

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Speaker 2: we can look to various examples of the Siths sort

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Speaker 2: of dark magic and say Dallas tradition, where it might

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Speaker 2: be portrayed as an imbalance of Yin and Yang, favoring

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Speaker 2: the subtle, hidden darkness of Yen. Not in this context

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Speaker 2: because Yen is evil, but because everything has to be balanced,

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Speaker 2: and if you're presuming something that is lopsided, that is

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Speaker 2: out of balance, well then it can become a dark path. Well.

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Speaker 3: Not to get overly nerdy, but I do now recall

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Speaker 3: some of the temptations offered by Sith lords in the

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Speaker 3: Star Wars movies often are bids for balance, right like

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Speaker 3: it doesn't At this point, Senator Palpatine explain his knowledge

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Speaker 3: of the dark side of the Forest to the young

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Speaker 3: Anakin by saying that we have to understand both sides,

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Speaker 3: not just the dogmatic one side of the Jedi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is pretty fascinating, and this is also a

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Speaker 2: trend or thread anyway that is discussed later in some

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Speaker 2: of the sequel materials as I remember this idea that

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's like the Jedi are not the

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Speaker 2: ultimate answer either, but there's some sort of ultimate in between,

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Speaker 2: a balance of forces that there has to be darkness

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Speaker 2: in light, and you know, certainly would be more in

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Speaker 2: keeping with with with Dallas philosophy, for example, but even

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Speaker 2: in Dallas treatment of magic, you know, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of talk about, you know, what happens when your interests

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Speaker 2: become increasingly driven by ego or or focused on harmful intent.

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Speaker 2: And then you couple this with a desire for immortality,

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Speaker 2: but not immortality for any noble reason, but just for

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Speaker 2: selfishness or and hunger for power, and yet then it

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Speaker 2: becomes a dark road. But yeah, there's there's an interesting

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Speaker 2: case to be made, and perhaps it's exactly the kind

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Speaker 2: of case of Sith Lord would make that the path

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Speaker 2: of the Jedi is also one of imbalance, that if

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Speaker 2: you ignore these dark paths, something else is out of line.

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Speaker 2: And you know, certainly we see case after case of

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Speaker 2: light Jedi that ends up falling into darkness, and maybe

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Speaker 2: that because there's sort of a pendulum situation in place here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is interesting. So there is some truth to

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Speaker 3: the idea of the narrowness of the Jedi. Yet at

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Speaker 3: the same time, I think, at least within the prequel films,

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Speaker 3: I know, this bid for balance that Palpatine makes is

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Speaker 3: ultimately revealed to be a false temptation. Oh it is,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's not it's not actually bringing Anakin or

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Speaker 3: Palpatine to a place of greater, more harmonious understanding. It

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Speaker 3: is a bid to like, no, why don't you try it? Come,

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Speaker 3: come taste the dark side? Ya, that's really the operative

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Speaker 3: thing there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Darthsidius slash Emperor Palpatine, you know, tremendous villain, but

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Speaker 2: also absolutely a villain, Absolutely a murderous, hateful, mass murdering,

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Speaker 2: genocidal ruler. So yeah, without any doubt he is the

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Speaker 2: villain in the scenario.

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Speaker 3: But there's never just one Sith villain, is there.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Star Wars fans are well aware of the

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Speaker 2: Sith rule of two, which, if you dig into the

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Speaker 2: lore reportedly was instituted by Sith Lord Darth Bain after

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Speaker 2: the Dark Force Order Slash religion was nearly eradicated by

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Speaker 2: the Jedi Order during the Jedi Sith War. And as

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Speaker 2: the part of this too is that the apparently the

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Speaker 2: Old Republic era Sith, this is back when there were

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Speaker 2: a lot of Sith. There's a whole full fledged faction

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Speaker 2: like you might encounter in the Knights of the Old

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Speaker 2: Republic games. They were apparently plagued by infighting, and this

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Speaker 2: restructuring was also intended to provide increased stability as well

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Speaker 2: as secrecy that would enable the Scith to not only

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Speaker 2: survive long enough to regain their power, but also to

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Speaker 2: eventually enact some sort of horrible vengeance against the Jedi.

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Speaker 3: But so functionally, what is the Sith rule of two?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 2: So basically it is that we're going to reduce this

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Speaker 2: entire Force Religion, Dark Side Force Relie to a two

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Speaker 2: person religious order, a two person organization for the most part.

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Speaker 2: And as we mentioned in the last episode, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to be completely dogmatic when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the law here. Realizing that within Canon Star Wars

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Speaker 2: fandom and extended universe lore legends, if you will. There

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Speaker 2: are going to be a lot of additional facts, and

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Speaker 2: we're happy to talk about all of that in over

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Speaker 2: email and we can get into it and listener mail,

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Speaker 2: but we're going to deal pretty broad strokes for the

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Speaker 2: most part here. Now.

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Speaker 3: While we always do accept factual corrections, I will say

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Speaker 3: if you're too pedantic about star Wars low, you may

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Speaker 3: be in for some light ribbing if we address it

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Speaker 3: in listener may.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, so yeah, always too. There are

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Speaker 2: a master and an apprentice from Bain onward the Sith.

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Speaker 2: They're able to exist in near secrecy for roughly a

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Speaker 2: thousand years. A master, the master of the two, holds

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Speaker 2: absolute power, while the apprentice craves that power, eventually inevitably

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Speaker 2: slaying their own master and taking on a new apprentice

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Speaker 2: to continue the chain. So the apprentice kills the master,

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Speaker 2: becomes the new master, finds a new apprentice, and this

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Speaker 2: chain continues with various ins and outs. Tell the Sith

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Speaker 2: apprentice Darth Sidius, slays his master, Darth Plagus, and takes

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Speaker 2: on a series of apprentices himself, ultimately failing to pass

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Speaker 2: the mantle of Sith Lord on to anybody else. However,

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Speaker 2: of course, Sidius does largely succeed in the long term

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Speaker 2: Sith goal of eradicating the rival Jedi order, So.

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Speaker 3: From his point of view, he gets a lot done,

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Speaker 3: but he does not successfully pass on the torch to

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Speaker 3: an apprentice, right or pass on the torch? Well, okay,

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Speaker 3: I actually have a question. I maybe you don't know

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Speaker 3: the answer, but if you do, are the Sith aware

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Speaker 3: they're like explicitly aware that it goes the apprentice, kills

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Speaker 3: the master and then takes it takes the master's place, Like,

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Speaker 3: do they have this in mind? It's like part of

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Speaker 3: the plan.

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Speaker 2: Well, I haven't, to my memory, I haven't read a

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Speaker 2: novelization or or encountered any media that like directly gets

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Speaker 2: into this. I'm sure they do. But my sort of

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Speaker 2: gut read on all of this is that you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with with very egotistical individuals, and I can easily imagine

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Speaker 2: that as the apprentice, you know this is the way

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Speaker 2: things go, and you know that the pattern has always

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Speaker 2: been that the new dark Lord then takes on an apprentice,

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Speaker 2: and that apprentice rises up and kills the paster. But

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Speaker 2: you can easily imagine that once the individual becomes the

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Speaker 2: dark Lord, they probably think they are the exception to

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Speaker 2: the rule.

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Speaker 3: I am different, Yes, very perceptive, Yes, that must be

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Speaker 3: that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Or and in the same way that you know,

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Speaker 2: you will have you know, various individuals throughout history who

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Speaker 2: recognize the the basic power structure that allows them to

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Speaker 2: take power, but then reject it as soon as it

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Speaker 2: is also the means to their own exit from power.

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Speaker 2: So when you see that time and time again.

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Speaker 3: A standard part of the Tyrants playbook, and it is

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Speaker 3: powered by Hubris. Yeah, thinking that I'm different, the rules

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Speaker 3: don't apply to me like they do to everybody.

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Speaker 2: Else, right, right, So I wanted to get into the

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Speaker 2: rule to here a little bit, you know, to be clear.

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Speaker 2: It fulfills its main purpose in that it is it

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Speaker 2: makes for great drama, it makes for great lore, and

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Speaker 2: you know, ultimately we're talking about Black Magic Space Wizards.

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Speaker 2: So it's silly to get too serious about all of this,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's also fun fun to in good

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Speaker 2: faith do some computation on this question. Okay, so let's

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Speaker 2: start with just the realm of secrecy again. The Sith

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Speaker 2: want to stay very secretive throughout this rebuilding phase so

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Speaker 2: that they can eventually carry out their vengeance, make sure

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Speaker 2: the Jedi forget about us, and then we can rise up.

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Speaker 2: So there is of course an old adage that reminds

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Speaker 2: us that three can keep a secret if two of

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Speaker 2: them are dead, And the logic is that secrets can

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Speaker 2: only effectively be kept by parties of one. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know that there's much to be gained by going

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Speaker 2: into a lot of game theory on this one. I

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Speaker 2: originally thought I might go in that direction, but at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, a lot of this comes

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Speaker 2: down to the advantages gained by keeping or revealing secrets.

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Speaker 2: And very broadly, the whole Sith rule of two depends

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Speaker 2: on the master keeping at least some secrets of power

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Speaker 2: to themselves, and then the promise of those secrets and

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Speaker 2: power is the sole thing driving the apprentice, both their

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Speaker 2: loyalty and their eventual betrayal of their master. But all things,

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Speaker 2: I mean, all things considered equal, if you reduce your

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Speaker 2: organization to just two people, you're probably going to have

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Speaker 2: a much easier time keeping things secret. There's going to

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Speaker 2: be fewer leaks that way, fewer people exiting the company

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Speaker 2: and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is hard for me to imagine a model

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Speaker 3: by which adding more people to the conspiracy decreases the

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Speaker 3: odds of being leaked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, two people secrecy, two people conspiracy makes sense. However,

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Speaker 2: coming back to that whole if two are dead, example,

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Speaker 2: secrets are best kept when everyone is dead. And the

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Speaker 2: kicker is that having us a secrets a secret society

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Speaker 2: of two is in fact very close to the absolute

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Speaker 2: secrecy that comes with death, which leads us to our

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Speaker 2: next consideration, and that is stability of your organization, your

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Speaker 2: two person organization moving across time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One thing I was thinking about is if there is

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Speaker 3: only one master and one apprentice, and you consider the

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Speaker 3: Master the expert in the dark side of the force.

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Speaker 3: If the Master dies before the apprentice's training is complete,

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Speaker 3: doesn't that mean that some expertise has just been lost? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like nobody else knows it, nobody has act it.

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Speaker 2: There are so many ways that can go wrong. Like,

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Speaker 2: another way I was thinking about is if the Master

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Speaker 2: becomes hesitant to in some way let go of his power.

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Speaker 2: And this is this is kind of difficult to hash

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Speaker 2: out because like the Master traditionally only gives up his

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Speaker 2: power when he is killed. But then the model is

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Speaker 2: sort of a passing of the baton. But if the

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Speaker 2: Master is too good at not being killed, he might

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Speaker 2: eventually get bumped off by a rather undeserving apprentice, you know,

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Speaker 2: like like he eventually like he's just defeated one apprentice

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Speaker 2: is like fifth apprentice, he brings in a sixth apprentice.

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Speaker 2: This guy's just as green as grass. But the Master

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Speaker 2: is so old and so weakened from these various secession

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Speaker 2: battles that he's just knocked off really easily. And now

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Speaker 2: the whole order is left in the hands of someone

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Speaker 2: who has no idea what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then how are you going to build up

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Speaker 2: your your, your, your, your momentum to take out the

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Speaker 2: Jedi Order at that point? Yeah, So yeah, the ideas

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Speaker 2: this chain of Master and apprentice has to continue undisrupted

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Speaker 2: across the centuries, centuries again, during which the Sith are

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Speaker 2: supposedly keeping a low profile. But you know, these guys

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Speaker 2: don't mean they're doing nothing. They're staying isolated, but they're

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Speaker 2: still going to encounter threats and dangers. You know that

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Speaker 2: they're going to have their own adventures, and there's probably

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Speaker 2: going to be one or two crackpot Jedi out there

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Speaker 2: who are convinced that the Sith are still out there

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Speaker 2: and we should maybe try and hunt them down.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if we just take the case of Darth Sidius,

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Speaker 3: I say, even within your own execution of plans, there

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Speaker 3: seems to be a lot of danger. There's you know,

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Speaker 3: all these ruses with being kidnapped by Droid separatists and

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Speaker 3: things like that, placing yourself in an awful lot of danger,

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Speaker 3: especially when you are the only repository of Sith knowledge. Now, well,

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Speaker 3: I guess not the only one at this point, because

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Speaker 3: when that happened, there was still a Dooku out there,

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Speaker 3: wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But always, you know, there's always the sense that

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Speaker 2: he is holding something back. There are secrets he's not

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Speaker 2: going to pass on yet, even though we do catch

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Speaker 2: him more or less in a lie here with Anakin,

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Speaker 2: because he's like, I know how people can live forever.

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Speaker 2: I know how to bring the dead back to life.

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Speaker 2: And then once he actually brings Anakin into the fold,

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Speaker 2: he's like, we've got some work to do on this,

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Speaker 2: but I have some great leads on the answer to

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Speaker 2: this question.

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Speaker 3: Who would have thought it that Sith lords will lie,

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Speaker 3: they will sometimes make false promises.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so well, one, there are obviously several problems,

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Speaker 2: potential problems with this setup. So even if this is

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Speaker 2: a stable system, so you know, at least you know,

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Speaker 2: through these long centuries of not making huge swings to

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Speaker 2: take over the republic, how much work can the sith

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Speaker 2: get done given that they're an asymmetrical two person organizations.

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Speaker 2: So again, not even like a full partnership, but a

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Speaker 2: master and apprentice set up.

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Speaker 3: Very good question. I actually just have some more questions

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Speaker 3: occurring to me, but I'm want to let you go

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Speaker 3: with this first.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So, I mean, obviously corporations and governments they have

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Speaker 2: a hard time keeping secrets, but they can also do

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Speaker 2: things that at a much larger scale, at industrial scale.

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Speaker 2: But you know, presumably one of the main reasons that

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Speaker 2: a Sith lord takes on an apprentice at all is

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Speaker 2: that they need a powerful underling. They need some help.

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Speaker 2: It's not a one person job. And yeah, they may

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Speaker 2: have a small network of less powerful minions, and some

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Speaker 2: of these minions may have there's no idea of what

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Speaker 2: their master's all about. You know, it may be a

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Speaker 2: hidden identity like oh we don't we don't work for

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Speaker 2: a dark lord. We work for a senator, or or

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever the cover story may be. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it seems like you're going to be very limited in

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Speaker 2: what you can do, and therefore any kind of like

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Speaker 2: vengeance you're planning against, you know, a major interplanetary civilization,

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Speaker 2: it's going to take some time building that up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: We also might look at this greatly reduced and sustained

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Speaker 2: reduced population of two as an extreme bottleneck for an organization.

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Speaker 2: I've recently been reading about various new religious movements, and

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Speaker 2: by and large you tend to find that a two

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Speaker 2: person religion, which essentially is what the sith are in

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Speaker 2: this case, it constitutes either the beginning or the end

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Speaker 2: of a religion, not so much the heyday of it.

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Speaker 3: I think I would have known even without looking ahead

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Speaker 3: in the notes which examples you may be thinking of here.

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Speaker 3: But it does strike me as common that at the

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Speaker 3: beginning of a new religious movement, it's often not just

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Speaker 3: one person preaching or crying in the wilderness. It's one

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Speaker 3: person and another loyalist. There's somebody there to be giving

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Speaker 3: the message and somebody else there to be saying that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think you can look at a number

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Speaker 2: of new religious movements where you have a pair of

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Speaker 2: individuals sometimes following into falling into the roles of visionary

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Speaker 2: on one hand, an organizer on the other. Uh, and

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Speaker 2: that between the two of them they're able to sort

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Speaker 2: of codify the faith in its early goings. And also

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Speaker 2: there might be even be in some cases a kind

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Speaker 2: of like shared paranoia, you know, like the two individuals

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Speaker 2: can really be a think tank for the creation of

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Speaker 2: some sort of new faith, you know, and really enhancing

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Speaker 2: whatever the kind of outside viewpoint or outside worldview is

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Speaker 2: being nurtured in this in this partnership. So two examples

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Speaker 2: that came to my mind. First of all, the Heaven's

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Speaker 2: Gate religious group at its peak had hundreds of members,

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Speaker 2: but initially consisted of just Marshall apple White and Bonnie Nettles,

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Speaker 2: who developed and largely solidified the teachings that would gain

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Speaker 2: masses of followers. A second example that comes to mind

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Speaker 2: is that from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty five, the

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Speaker 2: United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing, or the Shakers.

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Speaker 2: Some of you may have Shakers on the brain because

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Speaker 2: it was the topic The founding of the Shakers was

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Speaker 2: covered in the excellent film The Testament of Anne Lee,

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Speaker 2: which I highly recommend, really good view. During between twenty

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Speaker 2: seventeen and twenty twenty five, they were reduced to just

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Speaker 2: two followers, and this was due, I believe, in large part,

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Speaker 2: among other factors, to the group's key teachings against procreation.

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Speaker 2: Hard to really build up your follower base whilst in

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Speaker 2: the movement you're not supposed to have any offspring. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm to understand they've subsequently absorbed a third member, but

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Speaker 2: unless something drastically changes, it's hard to imagine that this

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Speaker 2: group's stability is improving and that they're on the upswing. Incidentally,

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Speaker 2: it has also been reported that Heaven's Gate is currently

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Speaker 2: reduced to two members active and kind of a caretaker

354
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Speaker 2: role for the movement's website and publications. But again also

355
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Speaker 2: not a case where I think there's a strong argument

356
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Speaker 2: to be made that Heaven's Gate has a big future

357
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Speaker 2: ahead of them in terms of you know, building up

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Speaker 2: those followers. Right. So, yeah, you could see the synergy

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Speaker 2: of a two person religious movement as a great sort

360
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Speaker 2: of consolidation engine, and maybe there's even against shared paranoia

361
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Speaker 2: that helps cement a radical worldview, and I think a

362
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Speaker 2: lot of that rather fits the Sith. You can imagine

363
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Speaker 2: this loan Sith Lord and Sith Apprentice like out there

364
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Speaker 2: in the galactic wilderness just getting like crazier and crazier

365
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Speaker 2: and more overflowing with hatred, and it just you know,

366
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Speaker 2: solidifies various aspects of their philosophy. But you know, if

367
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Speaker 2: the Faith undergoes changes during these tenures, during these little

368
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Speaker 2: think tank periods, well what happens if it undergoes too

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Speaker 2: much change? One can easily imagine it doing so, and

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Speaker 2: that would to put the whole like you know, multi

371
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Speaker 2: generational enterprise in some sort of jeopardy, because on one hand,

372
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Speaker 2: what if the Sith Lord and his apprentice begin introducing

373
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Speaker 2: changes that make the Faith less desirable by others and

374
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Speaker 2: you know, less combatible with a larger world, So it

375
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Speaker 2: might be harder to bring on the next apprentice and

376
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Speaker 2: allow the Faith to continue on into a new generation

377
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Speaker 2: or reach the point where it is able to carry

378
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Speaker 2: out its vengeance. Or what if it makes it like

379
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Speaker 2: more palpable to a larger audience and in doing so,

380
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Speaker 2: brings about the end of the secret small scale you

381
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Speaker 2: know niche system that they've put in place.

382
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Speaker 3: Now, I actually have a question. I wonder if you

383
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Speaker 3: know the answer to this. In the prequel films, we

384
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Speaker 3: see that Anakin Skywalker is lured into apprenticeship with Darth

385
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Speaker 3: Sidius under false pretenses like this, This relationship begins, the

386
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Speaker 3: mentorship begins without Anakin knowing that he is a Sith Lord,

387
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Speaker 3: and they've already become pretty close and establish some loyalty

388
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Speaker 3: before there is a revelation. Is that a standard recruiting

389
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Speaker 3: pitch or are there a lot of apprenticeships that begin

390
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Speaker 3: with full knowledge that I'm a Sith Lord. I need

391
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Speaker 3: a Sith apprentice.

392
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Speaker 2: How about you? I think I'm trying to remember exactly,

393
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Speaker 2: but I believe it is more like that with Douku's apprenticeship.

394
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Speaker 2: I think it's a little more out in the open

395
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Speaker 2: like that, So, and you know, you could I think

396
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Speaker 2: there's a I think there's a larger understanding that the

397
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Speaker 2: Sith are not the only Dark Force users in the galaxy.

398
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Speaker 2: So there may be a case where there's already someone

399
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Speaker 2: who's been exploring the dark side of the Force, at

400
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Speaker 2: least in an amateur fashion. Maybe with the even within

401
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Speaker 2: the confines of another sort of dark Force religion, and

402
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: then someone else comes along and says, hey, here, you're

403
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: into this dark Force stuff. Let me tell you about

404
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 2: the sith obvious. Would you like to go pro Yeah,

405
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: because obviously we see this with a lot of different

406
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: religious movements and religious groups. You know, where someone gets

407
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: into say, you know, ufology and some sort of UFO

408
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: religion before you know, changing up joining a different one

409
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: starting their own. Well, I mean, and we don't even

410
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: have to look to UFO religions. We can look to

411
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: various Christian groups or you know, any group associated with

412
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Speaker 2: any of the major long standing world religions.

413
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

414
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Speaker 2: So yeah, the recruitment policy, you know, the actual details

415
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Speaker 2: of the recruitment I guess could could vary. But we

416
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Speaker 2: might even look at the recruitment of Anakin as being

417
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Speaker 2: an outlier where he's like, hey, I have to admit

418
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Speaker 2: something to you. I'm a Sith lord. And then Anakin's like,

419
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Speaker 2: what what are you talking about? And you know, he

420
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Speaker 2: has to remind him, well, I'm also I'm also your friend,

421
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Speaker 2: and I've made you know, I've made sense on all

422
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: these other points, so you have to continue to follow

423
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Speaker 2: me into this.

424
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I guess you could look at that from

425
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Speaker 3: a storytelling point of view as Anakin is a particularly

426
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 3: high value apprentice and it is worth the risk of

427
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 3: making this, you know, overture toward a potentially non receptive

428
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Speaker 3: pupil because he's so so high quality, because he's good.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's hard to imagine. I guess

430
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Speaker 2: you'd have to deal with a scenario where you'd have

431
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Speaker 2: to have like a very high profile celebrity that is

432
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Speaker 2: being indoctrinated into a certain religion or a head of

433
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: state or something like that. That would probably be the

434
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: Something along those lines would be comparable to the scenario.

435
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, again, I can't help but think, like,

436
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 4: what are the risks to changes to sith doctrine, because

437
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: presumably they have traditions, they have books, But then you

438
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 4: end up with certainly one, maybe two individuals at max

439
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 4: having a tremendous amount of control over how the religion

440
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 4: is portrayed and interpreted.

441
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: You know, I was reminded, for instance, something we've discussed

442
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: in the show before, the example of the late eighteenth

443
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: dynasty pharaoh Naughton, who elevated the solar deity Autan, and

444
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: you know, above all the other gods of the Egyptian pantheon,

445
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: and in this case, his successors and the religious establishment

446
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: returned things to the way they were followed after his death.

447
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: But you can imagine cases, especially with a small system

448
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: like this, where that wouldn't be possible or desired depending

449
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: on what one or two individuals end up coming in

450
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: the wake of it.

451
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So instead of there being a whole

452
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 3: people to remember the old gods and then lead us

453
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: back to the old ways, it could be that, like

454
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: we've been saying it, with these other things, that the

455
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: knowledge of the old ways are wiped out.

456
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it only conceivably takes conceivably takes one sith lord

457
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: to say, actually, we're not really all about getting revenge

458
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: on the Jedi anymore. You know, we're a dark side religion,

459
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 2: but we're peaceful and we don't believe in violence. You know.

460
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: It's like those kind of changes could conceivably take place

461
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: within one generation of the religion and then it gets

462
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 2: passed on to the next. And then if there is

463
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 2: any kind of like expansion of population or like you know,

464
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: you know, clergy, then things could become solidified in a

465
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: way that you don't easily backslide from now.

466
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: There's one thing I was wondering about a minute ago

467
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: that I wanted to bring up quickly, which is the

468
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: Sith are very open in their embrace of moral vices. So,

469
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: you know, the Sith, at least as far as I'm aware,

470
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: maybe it's different in some of the books or something,

471
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: but it seems like they're openly advocating of They openly

472
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: advocate hate. Of course, negative emotions like anger and hate,

473
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: but also treachery and deception and things like that. And

474
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: that kind of makes me feel like it would it

475
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: would undermine a conspiracy, because a conspiracy may be deceptive

476
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: in its overall presentation to the larger struck sure of

477
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: politics or to the outside world. I would think that

478
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: within a conspiracy there actually has to be some level

479
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: of trust, you know, some kind of like mutual trust

480
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 3: and shared values. And so if the if there's a

481
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: conspiracy of two people and they both openly say that

482
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 3: lying and treachery and backstabbing are good, how do you

483
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: effectuate enough trust to carry out a conspiracy together.

484
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: That's a great point, and I think that that might

485
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 2: actually be a point that is is difficult to to

486
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: you know, come up with an answer to we maybe

487
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 2: have to do a fair amount of mental gymnastics to

488
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: make it work, because yeah, if if there if everyone's

489
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: a backstabber, then how do you establish any kind of

490
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 2: working trust? I mean, I guess the easy answer is

491
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: that the apprentice needs the power and the knowledge of

492
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 2: the Master, and so he's going to be They're going

493
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: to be loyal as long as they can and in

494
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: order to gain that information. And meanwhile, the Master needs

495
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: the help of the apprentice to carry out you know,

496
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: whatever you know, task and duties and plots uh, they

497
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: have in mind, and so they're gonna have some sort

498
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: of loyalty to them as well. But yeah, eventually you're

499
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: going to get into some sort of a scenario where uh,

500
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: that trust is going to decay. Uh. And actually, you know,

501
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: we're we're about to get into that a bit here,

502
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: because you know, again, the the the the passing of

503
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: the baton pretty much exclusively. I think there may be

504
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 2: some counterexamples if you get into the deeper like comic

505
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: book and novel lore and the expanded universe and so

506
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: forth in the legends, but for the most part, it

507
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: has the transition has to occur when an apprentice kills

508
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: the master, and you can tease that apart, like it

509
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: to what extent is the Master letting go at that point?

510
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: You know, at what point if they sort of like

511
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: pushed it to the level where okay, I have a

512
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: worthy apprentice because they can physically kill me, I guess

513
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: you can sort of look at it that way. But

514
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: but then you get into this question of like what

515
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: happens when the Master doesn't want to pass the baton

516
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: one way or the other. And I think we actually

517
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: do kind of see an example of that, you know,

518
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: in the Star Wars movies with Darth Sidius, because like,

519
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: look at how it ends up going for him. He

520
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: ends up running through at least what three different apprentices,

521
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: tries to get a fourth essentially, and in the background

522
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: is seems to be very devoted to the idea of

523
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: long term rain and even some manner of physical immortality,

524
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, especially when you get into some of the

525
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: Expanded Universe stuff and some of the stuff that they're

526
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: cooking up with like the Mandalorian series now with the

527
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: idea that he wants to continue his own physical existence

528
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: through like clone bodies, like this is not a guy

529
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: who's looking to actually have any kind of a successful

530
00:29:52,920 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: passing of the baton? Yes, yeah, And so this leads

531
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: to another I think I found really interesting real world

532
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: analog that of the successor's dilemma. So the basic problem

533
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: here is an ancient one in human society, and you

534
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: don't need black magic wizards in order to crunch it.

535
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: But a ruler or individual in some level of great

536
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: authority and power eventually has to contemplate the continuation of

537
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: the organization after they die or leave their post. A

538
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: successor must be chosen. But as we know from countless

539
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: human dramas, the most famous of which is probably King

540
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: Lear complexities, complications often arise, yes, And of course there

541
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: are plenty of successor dramas playing out in the political world,

542
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: in the religious world all around us. But the kings

543
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: of our modern age are of course sometimes the leaders

544
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: of industry CEOs. And so for this next part here

545
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: I wanted to turn to what was This is something

546
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: that exists largely in the business world, so I wasn't

547
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: really familiar with it, but there is something called the

548
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: successor's dilemma, and it originates with Dan Champa and Michael Watkins,

549
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: who introduced it in their November December nineteen ninety nine

550
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: Harvard Business Review article of the same title, and you

551
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: can pull this up in full on the internet, as

552
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: I did so. The authors of this piece argue thatship

553
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: leadership transitions in the business world being the main focus here.

554
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: They often go awry with considerable frequency, generally due to

555
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: an emotionally charged power struggle between the outgoing CEO and

556
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: the incoming successor. And you can guess the basic typical

557
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: factors here if you've ever watched even a single human

558
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: drama about this sort of thing.

559
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: And to be clear, you're not talking about this drama

560
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: happening only in the case where like an old, older

561
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: CEO is being in some hostile way pushed out and

562
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: replaced against their will, like this would be the case

563
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: even for voluntary handovers of power.

564
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: Right, And really that's their main focus. Is not a

565
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: situation where you're bringing in some sort of a you know,

566
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: a hostile outsider like this is like best laid plans

567
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: territory that we're talking about here. So this is the

568
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: way they basically lay it out is happening. So a

569
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: CEO realizes, as does the board or surrounding corporate structure

570
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: that they need to lay the groundwork for someone to

571
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: carry on leadership after the CEO leaves. CEO positions, after all,

572
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: are not generally lifetime appointments. Sometimes they kind of work

573
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: out that way for one reason or another. But you

574
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: know at some point they're going to need to pass

575
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: the reins on to a selected air and everyone rests

576
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: more easily if there is in fact a plan for

577
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: this and not just a mad scramble. Again, in the

578
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: business world, you're can have a board to have you know,

579
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: the entire corporate structure. You're going to have shareholders and

580
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: everything else, and they barely are mentioned at all in

581
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: this article. But you also have employees whose salaries and

582
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: livelihoods depend on the overall corporation functioning in a healthy manner.

583
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Right, So having a planned handoff in place, or at

584
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: least having the appearance of such, is not just for

585
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: the actual functional value that it would provide when the

586
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: handoff happens. It's also for appearances to calm people, to

587
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: give people assurances.

588
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so through some combination of corporate world

589
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 2: mysticism and politics, a successor is chosen an air appearent,

590
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: often from outside the company, who now has the job

591
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: of preparing for their eventual ascension to CEO hood or ceoedom,

592
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: learning from the master while also making quote organizational and

593
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: strategic changes to prepare the company for the time when

594
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: he will.

595
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: Lead it, okay, giving the appearance of both learning and

596
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 3: also making their mark as the as the new leader,

597
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: the preparation to say I'm in charge now and you

598
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 3: will observe that because I'm going to do something right.

599
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: And you know, this is often you're dealing with the

600
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: sorts of people here that are generally going to be

601
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: movers and shakers, and you're often dealing with some sort

602
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: of like generational change, like this is the leader that's

603
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: going to take us into the digital age, this is

604
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: the leader that's going to take us into the AI

605
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: age or whatever. You know, the argument happens to be.

606
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: Going to manage our pivot to blockchain.

607
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sort of thing. And so you have initially

608
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: a period where everybody feels really great about this. The

609
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: CEO and the board, they're like they're really patting themselves

610
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: in the back, saying, yeah, yeah, this is this is

611
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: the guy, this is the this is the person this

612
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: is the next generation, and they you know, they're they're

613
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: all about the stability that they've engineered here. But then

614
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: feathers begin to ruffle. The acting CEO ends up having

615
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 2: a trouble letting go. This is very human. We can

616
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: all get this, you know, fueled by ego, worried over legacy,

617
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: and on varying levels, perhaps about mortality itself. They may

618
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: be dealing with like the end of their career and

619
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: that forces them to think even about the end of

620
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: their life.

621
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and not just at the CEO level. I mean,

622
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 3: you know, you can read lots of accounts of people managing,

623
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: you know, our retirement or late career transitions and thinking

624
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: about thinking about mortality as a result. It kind of

625
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: is inevitable that your thoughts go there, and a lot

626
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 3: of people don't want to think about that.

627
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so you know, all this is very relatable.

628
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, the successor, uh, they there's there's actually a

629
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of weight on their shoulders as well.

630
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: They're expected to deliver upon taking over, but they need

631
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: the cooperation of the existing CEO to reach that point.

632
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: And you know that there's they're they're they're risking alienation

633
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: of that CEO if they push too hard from their end,

634
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: and the relationship based basically begins to drastically sack at

635
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: this point, and you know, it's just as the CEO

636
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: is realizing that they need to leave on their own,

637
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 2: they're hit with the threatening realization, you know, to varying

638
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: degrees true, that their successor wants them to leave. And

639
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: again that may not be with any heat. They're like,

640
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: I was brought on to be the new CEO. You know,

641
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: I'm ready to take the reins, Like I'm here. I'm

642
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: a go getter. That's why they hired me. That's why

643
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: they're paying me the big bucks. And this big this,

644
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: this this begins to be a sour situation between the

645
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: two individuals.

646
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you can imagine, even for the exact same person,

647
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: it might feel good to believe you are voluntarily under

648
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 3: no pressure handing over power, but feel very bad if

649
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 3: if you think there's pressure on you to give up power.

650
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like even if it's as simple as like, well,

651
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: I was gonna, I was gonna try. We're gonna do

652
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: this baton passing next Friday, and now you want it Thursday,

653
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: And now I feel you know, attacked, you know, and

654
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: I think we can understand how that would be. So

655
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: this is where the true dilemma sets in, according to

656
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: the authors, Here, what's the successor supposed to do. The

657
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: more they push, the more push back they're gonna get

658
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: from the acting CEO and any loyal board members or

659
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: members of the corporate structure, and they're gonna be left

660
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: with two choices. Either they wage open war against the

661
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: current CEO they begin to really push and try to

662
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: push them out and take that top position, or they quit.

663
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: They walk away and they say, you know, all right,

664
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: if you're not gonna if you don't want me to

665
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: be the new CEO, I'm gonna leave. I have other

666
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: offers out there. And according to the authors, both of

667
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: these choices are pretty bad ones. They stress that open

668
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: war with this acting CEO, this can get really ugly

669
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: and apparently rarely works. So the idea of a hostile takeover,

670
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 2: it's going to be a very risky swing that likely

671
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: is going to end in defeat. Meanwhile, stepping down and

672
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: leaving the company, they say this and end up being

673
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 2: like a high profile failure that could tarnish any any

674
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: future prospects. So again, we're talking about, like, you know,

675
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: really high achieving individuals that really want to be at

676
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: the top of whatever company they're in. So I don't

677
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: know that one thing to keep in mind here is

678
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: failure for that individual still sounds a lot like victory

679
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: for most people out in the world, where it's like, oh,

680
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: you don't have you don't get to be number one

681
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: in a company. You only get to be a high paid,

682
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: high powered number two or three. But you know, from

683
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: their point of view, it could be a colossal failure.

684
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: It's kind of a classic Shakespearean or Greek tragedy point

685
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: of view that, whether literally or just figuratively, the loss

686
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: of power and kingship is death.

687
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And the authors here argue that the situation

688
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: is made all the more dire because relatively few individuals

689
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: in an organization can actually help with the matter once

690
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: it's reached this point. So not other board members, not hr,

691
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: just the two individuals trapped in the dilemma. They're the

692
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: only ones who can really act, and everyone has something

693
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: to lose in the scenario, the board, the company, the shareholders,

694
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 2: without mentioning the employees, and the CEO themselves, but the

695
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: successor they argue has the most to lose and therefore

696
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: has to be the one to manage the situation. And

697
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: so the authors here they have served as professional advisors

698
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: for situations like this, But their core advice in this

699
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: original paper is four part. They're saying, these are the

700
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: four steps that the successor in ours this scenario, This

701
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 2: would be the apprentice can consider getting into the scenario,

702
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: like even ahead of a potential dilemma. So first of all,

703
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: they say, the successor needs to work ahead of time

704
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 2: to better understand the current CEO and their emotional readiness

705
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 2: to step aside, long before they even accept the number

706
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: two position.

707
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 3: Now we'll have to come back and kind of translate

708
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 3: this piece of advice for our Star Wars scenario because

709
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: of major differences in how the transition happens, Yes, how

710
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 3: the power handoff happens, and usually in CEOs versus the

711
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: Sith lords.

712
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: But I think we can go ahead and handle this

713
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: first bit of advice because I don't think it's particularly

714
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: appliable to the Sith scenario because the Siths are such

715
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: obvious liars and there's so much secrecy involved, Like what

716
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: Sith apprentice is really going to be able to get

717
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: a handle on their sith master's willingness to eventually give

718
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 2: up power. I just don't know that there's any way

719
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: that they could really move on that, but it makes

720
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: sense from CEO standpoint.

721
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 3: All right, what's the rest of the advice?

722
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So number two on the CEO level is the

723
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: successor has to make regular communication with the CEO a priority.

724
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: Okay, that seems valuable, maybe even for sith who knows.

725
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 2: I think so. I think it is a basic human

726
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: reality that the more communic communication to individuals have the better.

727
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 2: Even if they're two sith just lying their faces off

728
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: to each other, at least you have some sort of

729
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: back and forth that can be read and interpreted. So

730
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna stick with that being a piece of advice

731
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: that does stand well.

732
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 3: Let me iterate on that just one way, which is

733
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 3: that we're all familiar with ways that communication can go bad.

734
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: Communication like a you know, a text message or an

735
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: email can be read the wrong way. It can be

736
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: taken with more hostility or some negative emotion that wasn't

737
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: really intended by the person writing it. Communication can of

738
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: course increase tensions and problems, but I think in a

739
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 3: lot of cases we I don't know. Maybe thinking about

740
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 3: that aspect, we underappreciate how much tensions and problems can

741
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 3: be created just by lack of communication. Yeah, that with

742
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: silence can really amplify pre existing worries andbiguities, And almost

743
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 3: any communication, as long as it's not overtly negative or hostile,

744
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 3: can reduce those negative ambiguities. And I think this is

745
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 3: true in all different kinds of relationships, from you know,

746
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 3: family and romantic relationships, to work relationships to whatever it's

747
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 3: it's just usually it's good to check in to like community,

748
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: having some kind of communication is better than just radio

749
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: silence and leaving people having no idea what's going on.

750
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: Like in the CEO scenario, even if it's just getting

751
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: together to play golf or to talk about golf, yeah yeah,

752
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: or in the syth scenario getting together to play golf

753
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: or talk about golf. Would that would that would probably

754
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: do wonders for avoiding any unnecessary early violence between the two.

755
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: This race is a great question. Do sith lords ever

756
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: have fun? You never see them doing anything that make

757
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 3: it seem like, oh wow, it would be great to

758
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: be a sith lord. In all these movies about like

759
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 3: crime bosses and stuff. Yeah, they leave. They lead these horrible,

760
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 3: squalid lives, full of like sin and betrayal and and

761
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: treating people poorly. But at least you usually get to

762
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: see them having fun and enjoying their wealth. I don't

763
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 3: remember any scenes like that for the Sith Lord.

764
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: So if you love what you do, you never work

765
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: a day in your life, I guess so. I mean,

766
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: Palpatine does have a really swank, dark office towards the

767
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: end of his days as a secret Sith Lords, and

768
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: then I guess really gets into the aesthetics of imperial

769
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 2: rule once he's out in the open.

770
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 3: He just likes looking out the windows at Coruscond. No,

771
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: that's true. I think he Palpatine probably does get a

772
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: lot of genuine pleasure from commissioning monuments and like having

773
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: things built in his honor.

774
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you should see the ballroom that he exactly. Yes,

775
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: But anyway, coming back to the list here, they're number three.

776
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: Bit of advice to an incoming CEO or the apprentice.

777
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: In our scenario, the successor needs to lean on a

778
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: balanced personal advice network to navigate any struggles or problems.

779
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: I think that's a great bit of advice for the

780
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: CEO scenario and probably for a lot of real world scenarios,

781
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: doesn't really help the sith scenario all that much because

782
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: given a secretive to individual structure, there's not really going

783
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: to be a personal advice network that you can lean on,

784
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: balanced or otherwise.

785
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: I'm writing a story in which someone is a secret

786
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: sith lord. What do you think they would do in

787
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 3: this scenario?

788
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess there might be some droids

789
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: or uninitiated underlings he might bounce some ideas off of,

790
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: but you know, they're probably not going to be great help,

791
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: and you're just going to get them lightsabered by sharing

792
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: anything with them.

793
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: See, my main character, Schmannikin, is really trying to figure

794
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 3: out if his sith lord will tell him the secret

795
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 3: of life and death.

796
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then finally, the fourth bit of advice they

797
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: have his they focused on professional goals, not be quote

798
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: emotional traps that surround them. That's that feels like good advice.

799
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: I think in the real world also probably easier said

800
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: than done. There's probably a lot of coaching that goes

801
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 2: into realizing that. Within the sith context, I would say

802
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: they're probably quite a lot of emotional traps in the

803
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: Sith master Sith apprentice relationship. But yeah, it might be

804
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: it might be good to be able to figure out

805
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: which ones are traps and work around them, you know.

806
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: But they openly embrace emotional.

807
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: Traps, they do, that's right. They're all about negative to hate.

808
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: They're constantly messing with each other. So yeah, that's a

809
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: good question. To what extent can you even navigate around

810
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: those emotional traps. You've you've got to indulge them to

811
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: some degree.

812
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: This is like giving that advice to somebody at a

813
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 3: corporation where their product is making their own executives angry

814
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: and hateful. Like it's just not cannot be followed.

815
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I don't know. It's interesting to think

816
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: about this transition as being like the CEO transition. But obviously,

817
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 2: as we've been driving home, there are number of key

818
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: differences for starters they would be CEO. I think it's

819
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: gonna have a hard time just quitting this in the

820
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 2: Sith scenario, because what are you gonna do Just gonna say, actually,

821
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm not a Sith anymore. That sounds like a great

822
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: way to get lightsabered. They're probably maybe there are probably

823
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 2: some expanded universe examples, but the only one I could

824
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: think of where you have somebody sort of quit the

825
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 2: Sith is by being left for dead. So like Darth

826
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: Maul is cut in half, presumed dead, later re emerges

827
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: as an underworld criminal figure.

828
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 3: I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, he comes back.

829
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: He does. He comes back in first in the Clone

830
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: Wars series, and then and then in Rebels, and then

831
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: it makes a brief cameo in the Han solo movie

832
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: that came out years back, and his storyline is really interesting.

833
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 2: He's a much more interesting character after his death than

834
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: he was before, but he never achieves the same level.

835
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 2: So it's like, this is very much a guy who's

836
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: never gonna make CEO again. I mean, he guess he

837
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: kind of becomes CEO of Darth Maul Crime Incorporated, but

838
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: a much smaller organization.

839
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 3: Do you get to see him having fun now that

840
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 3: you Herestrial.

841
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 2: No, he is especially miserable for the rest of his life.

842
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: Palpatine Sidius is having a great time compared to the

843
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: Ma All okay, but you know he's working his way up.

844
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: He's focused on his goals, let's see. And then, of

845
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: course we already mentioned how there is the whole aspect

846
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: of the thing where the sith Lord does have to

847
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: eventually die in order for the transition to take place.

848
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: And so you know that's going to add a certain

849
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: amount of weight to the whole scenario. Anyway, interesting to

850
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: think about all this again, I'm gonna say that, Yeah,

851
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 2: I think it's a severe bottleneck for a two person

852
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: religious organization to go about things like this. And I

853
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 2: think that we can look to Palpatine's example as a

854
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: downfall that is directly tied to the successor's dilemma, as

855
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: he proves himself more concerned with holding on to life

856
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: and power himself than to truly passing on the mantle.

857
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: Probably I think, very much in his own mind, seeing

858
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: himself in his own rule as the culmination of this

859
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: system and not a part of the chain, which you know,

860
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: given the egotistical nature of tyrannical rule, I think this

861
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: is this is pretty common. You see this time after

862
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: time through human history. Now I know that you watched

863
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: and very much enjoyed and or as I did, and

864
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: we never see the emperor in that he is alluded to.

865
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 2: And there, you know, there's some great bits where I

866
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: forget the spymaster's character's name, but he's like I spoke

867
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: with the Emperor earlier today, and you know, if that's

868
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: true or not, he still his name is invoked like that.

869
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 2: And apparently at some level in writing the and Or series,

870
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: they considered using the Emperor as a character, Like they

871
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: had access to the character and the actor. They could

872
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 2: have employed him to some degree, but they couldn't figure

873
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: out the way to do it that they liked, you know,

874
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 2: what was the right balance. So I am curious how

875
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 2: they thought about portraying his relationship with his you know,

876
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: more political advisors and you know, spy world operatives as

877
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: opposed to you know, figures like Darth Vader and and

878
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, and rivals and so forth.

879
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: I actually very much liked the way he does not

880
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 3: appear directly in the story. I think that made the story.

881
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 3: I don't know that that worked very well in the

882
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 3: execution of Andor from my perspective that the ultimate villain

883
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 3: of the story exists at a remove, and we only

884
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 3: get there their will expressed second hand and third hand

885
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 3: through all of these obsequious underlings who were all fighting

886
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: each other trying to get you know, in the better

887
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: graces of the Emperor who we never meet.

888
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again may not even really be in direct

889
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: communication with him, right, So yeah, I think it was

890
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: absolutely the correct choice for the series.

891
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I you know, I've not gone into a

892
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: lot of the you know, Star Wars extended universe stuff.

893
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: I haven't seen some of the more recent movies and

894
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 3: shows and stuff. But I thought Indoor was fantastic though.

895
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 3: It was really good. Yeah, absolutely, all right, folks, Well,

896
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 3: we have just gone off Mike and looked at the

897
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 3: time and said, you know what, we've got to wrap

898
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 3: up this episode here. We had a whole other section

899
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 3: we planned on doing today, but it's pretty pretty long,

900
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 3: pretty substantial, and it would probably really just make a

901
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 3: whole other episode worth that segment. By the way, I'll

902
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 3: just go ahead and tease it is going to be

903
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 3: called Palpfacts, where we just check it fact check some

904
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: claims made by our beloved Emperor Palpatine.

905
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: Yes, we may even at times say, you know, don't

906
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 2: like that Emperor Palpatine, but he was right on.

907
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 3: A few things. He tells it like it is, tells

908
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 3: it tells it like it is sometimes. Yeah, so yeah,

909
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: we're we're gonna come back with some Palp facts and

910
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 3: some fact checking the Emperor in the future. But I

911
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 3: think that's it for today.

912
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that'll be it for this our second episode

913
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: for Star Wars week. But yeah, keep an eye on

914
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: the feed because in the future we'll come back in

915
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: and we'll finish up this treatment. Perhaps it's just kind

916
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: of like a standalone episode, but you'll be able to

917
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: tell it's the it's the essentially the third Star Wars episode. Right,

918
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: all right, let's see in the meantime, what else suit

919
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: should we tell you? Well, will just remind you that

920
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily a science and

921
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 2: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short

922
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: form episode on Wednesdays, and then on Fridays. We set

923
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

924
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema. Indeed, tomorrow's episode of Weird

925
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: House Cinema will be Star Wars related. I'll just go

926
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: and let you know. I don't want to build up.

927
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: Are not going to cover an actual Star Wars film.

928
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 2: We are going to cover one of the many films

929
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 2: that came out in the wake of Star Wars. In

930
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: an attempt to ride that wave of commercial success and

931
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: maybe artistic success, though I think these efforts were more

932
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 2: about making money.

933
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 3: I think the one that we're going to do this

934
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: week is maybe the greatest of the Star Wars ripoffs arguably.

935
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: All right, well, join us for a conversation on that topic.

936
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we'll just remind you that, hey, you

937
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: can get stuff to blow your mind episodes wherever you

938
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. We've been around for years and years

939
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 2: at this point, so there's a vast audio reserve of episodes,

940
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: a stockpile. We are also in video form on Netflix.

941
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: Those are just recent episodes only, however, so if you're

942
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: watching on Netflix, we thank you for doing that. Certainly

943
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: give us some thumbs up and so forth. Whatever the

944
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: little bells and whistles are that you can click, but

945
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: just remember that we have all these other episodes in

946
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 2: audio format only, and you're going to find those wherever

947
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 2: you get your audio podcasts.

948
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 3: That's right on Netflix. You can click remind me to

949
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 3: get future video episodes of our show on your podcast platforms,

950
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 3: you just click subscribe, and we encourage people to hop

951
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: across platforms as well. So if you discovered us on Netflix.

952
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: Why not go subscribe to the audio wherever you get

953
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 3: your podcasts, or vice versa. If you only know us

954
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: on audio, go check us out on Netflix. Let's see huge.

955
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Pousway.

956
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

957
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

958
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

959
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

960
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

961
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

962
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

963
00:53:55,040 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

964
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: Name