Speaker 1: It's July twenty twenty one, and zeb Hal is going
Speaker 1: to work. Get out of my car, you know, working
Speaker 1: a nail net for a contract thirty bucks an Arrow'm
Speaker 1: fucking happy. It's been nearly a year since he's seen
Speaker 1: Mickey Windecker or really anyone involved in the protest scene.
Speaker 1: And walk back to my car because I forgot something
Speaker 1: came back out. Then I saw those letters as he's
Speaker 1: walking back to his car. Zepsi's a man wearing a
Speaker 1: blue jacket with three large yellow letters on the back.
Speaker 1: He said, zebadiyas Hall. I was like, yeah, FBI. It
Speaker 1: was hard for me to hear anything else after that.
Speaker 1: And I'll just put my hands up in the air
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking these dudes are gonna just fucking straight
Speaker 1: up shoot me. I'm freaking out and shaking everything in
Speaker 1: my I'm like, fuck, you know, I'm you know, I'm no,
Speaker 1: I'm getting arrested. FBI agents search zeb and his car,
Speaker 1: they take his belt and his shoes. Then they take
Speaker 1: me to like this holding sale and I'm freaking walk out.
Speaker 1: Zeb has just one question, was it Mickey. I'm Trevor
Speaker 1: Aaronson from Western Sound and I heeart podcasts This is
Speaker 1: Alphabet Boys, Episode ten, America didn't send its best. Among
Speaker 1: the racial justice demonstrators in Denver, Trey Quinn is the
Speaker 1: only one who was really onto Mickey. I think he's
Speaker 1: I think he's fucking suspicious. Trey had proposed a hypothetical
Speaker 1: idea to Mickey back in August twenty twenty, what if
Speaker 1: a neighborhood were set on fire, and Mickey told Tray
Speaker 1: that he knew some guys who could make that happen.
Speaker 1: Trey was smart enough to suspect that that's the behavior
Speaker 1: of a FED, but Trey never has definitive proof until
Speaker 1: the next month when he's arrested. I had the day off,
Speaker 1: and when I went back to work the next day,
Speaker 1: one of my courses like, Hey, yeah, the cops came
Speaker 1: here looking for you and you weren't here. And I
Speaker 1: was like, and I was like, oh shit, here we go,
Speaker 1: Here we go. At the time, Tray's working out a
Speaker 1: Sherwyn Williams. From inside through the windows, he sees a
Speaker 1: police cruiser pull up right behind his car in the
Speaker 1: parking lot, and I see two cops walking through the doors,
Speaker 1: and then two more walk through the doors, and then
Speaker 1: one more walks through the door and stands out the door,
Speaker 1: and they come up and they like to trade Quinn,
Speaker 1: you got one for your risk for insighting Ray and
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. And so I was like
Speaker 1: no protests, saying I lead no protests, which was true
Speaker 1: at this time. What Tree means is that as the
Speaker 1: protests had become more violent with the attacks on the
Speaker 1: police stations, he had backed away. So Trey wasn't technically
Speaker 1: leading the protest any longer. And so then they cuffed me.
Speaker 1: We get outside and there's a Shillottle cop cars out
Speaker 1: there and tossed me in and whipped me away, just
Speaker 1: voiced me away. He and five other organizers are arrested
Speaker 1: that day for activities during the demonstrations. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: Trays charged with inciting a riot, engaging in a riot,
Speaker 1: false imprisonment, and obstructing government operations. When I was being
Speaker 1: detained and questioned, they passed me off to the FITS.
Speaker 1: Trey is taken into an interrogation room. And so when
Speaker 1: the FETs came in the room and introduced themselves to me,
Speaker 1: Mickey was the first name that they dropped for Trey.
Speaker 1: Hearing the FETs mentioned Mickey from the very beginning. He
Speaker 1: knew what that meant. They were trying to gauge his suspicion.
Speaker 1: I mean, why else would you do that? And so
Speaker 1: I said, what do you know about Mickey? And they said, well,
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure that out. And that's obviously a
Speaker 1: tell right there. And so I knew right then and
Speaker 1: there he's working with these guys. Prosecutors, after deliberating for
Speaker 1: nine months, eventually dropped all the charges against Trey. The
Speaker 1: five other protest organizers who are arrested also have their
Speaker 1: charges thrown out. Their cases were bogus, but the damage
Speaker 1: to the movement is done. Mickey's operation in Denver is
Speaker 1: coming to a close as the FEDS, with the help
Speaker 1: of local officials, start hauling in some of the people
Speaker 1: he's been secretly recording. Well, they showed up at my house,
Speaker 1: they showed up at the park that I was at
Speaker 1: with my girlfriend and her daughter, and they showed up
Speaker 1: at my best friend in's house. This is Bryce Shelby,
Speaker 1: the guy who discussed with Mickey and the FBI undercover
Speaker 1: agent a plan to assassinate Colorade as attorney general or
Speaker 1: was it the district attorney A vague plot that ultimately
Speaker 1: went nowhere. They said I was under investigation for pretty
Speaker 1: much saying that was gonna murder the attorney general. This
Speaker 1: was on November third, twenty twenty, the same day of
Speaker 1: the presidential election. The cops seemed on edge, so they
Speaker 1: patted me down and shit like that. And it was
Speaker 1: really light first off, Like for your listeners, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to be amusement and poke fun and no ship
Speaker 1: like that. But it was almost like they were still
Speaker 1: scared in whatever way. It was like they were still afraid,
Speaker 1: Like this motherfucker, he's still got something still, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It was weird. They take Bryce's assault
Speaker 1: rifle from his home, but they don't arrest him. Bryce
Speaker 1: isn't being charged with a crime. Instead, local prosecutors use
Speaker 1: the evidence the FBI collected to ask a court to
Speaker 1: take away Bryce's gun for a year. Under Colorado's so
Speaker 1: called red flag law, Bryce is a potential threat to
Speaker 1: the community, prosecutors argue. Local media run with a story.
Speaker 1: His name is Bryce Jordan Shelby and this is his
Speaker 1: mug shot from twenty eleven. Law enforcement officials present Bryce's
Speaker 1: case as if the assassination plot was something a lot
Speaker 1: more than it was. This is from the local Fox
Speaker 1: affiliate KDVR, as accuses Bryce Jordan Sidney Shelby I'm surveilling
Speaker 1: Attorney General phil Wiser's Hall. The twenty nine year old
Speaker 1: is now accused of plotting to shoot Attorney General Phil
Speaker 1: Wiser in the head, Planning to shoot the state's top
Speaker 1: law enforcement official in the head and quote does not
Speaker 1: care if a g Wiser's wife, dog, or children have
Speaker 1: to die in the process, and adhering to take away
Speaker 1: Bryce's firearms. A Denver police detective testifies that the FBI
Speaker 1: had reached what he called an impasse and had not
Speaker 1: been able to build a prosecutable criminal case against Bryce.
Speaker 1: Probably gets a little blurred because I did say certain things.
Speaker 1: So that's whatever they're in some way to put it
Speaker 1: for intent and shit like that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But yeah, not going through with any kind of plant
Speaker 1: payments and shit like that. Yeah, no, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean no, zeb Hall isn't as fortunate. After buying a
Speaker 1: gun for Mickey and being there that strange night when
Speaker 1: Mickey recorded the video making threats and saying he wasn't
Speaker 1: a snitch, zeb backed away from all of it, and everyone,
Speaker 1: including Mickey, things had gone too far, had become too dangerous.
Speaker 1: The revolution that can wait, police say. Shelby, who self
Speaker 1: identifies with the Black Panther Party, also said he wanted
Speaker 1: to I woul eliminate the mayors and police chiefs of
Speaker 1: Denver and Aurora. Zeb see's on the news that police
Speaker 1: have taken away Bryce Shelby's guns. Zeb's been very slow
Speaker 1: to come around to this conclusion, but by now he's
Speaker 1: finally beginning to suspect that Mickey's an informant. So and
Speaker 1: this is kind of bizarre given that suspicion. But Zeb
Speaker 1: sends a link to a local news article about Bryce
Speaker 1: to Mickey, and you know, that was when I text
Speaker 1: Mickey out of nowhere, gonna say that, you know, I
Speaker 1: guess fuck around, I'll find it out. And he says yep,
Speaker 1: and kept it at that. That was in November twenty
Speaker 1: twenty months pass and in July twenty twenty one, out
Speaker 1: of nowhere, Zeb gets another text from Mickey. According to
Speaker 1: an FBI internal report, agents asked Mickey to reach out
Speaker 1: to Zeb an anticipation of securing an indictment against him
Speaker 1: and to determine his whereabouts, checking to see how you're doing, Mickey, writes.
Speaker 1: Zeb text Mickey that he's surprised to hear from him.
Speaker 1: He also says he's distanced himself from everyone who's participated
Speaker 1: in the demonstrations. I think you're paranoid, lol. Mickey replies,
Speaker 1: nothing against you and your crew, but the past year
Speaker 1: was dangerous, Zeb writes. At this point, Zeb is scared
Speaker 1: of Mickey. Is he a snitch as people have claimed,
Speaker 1: or is he just some crazy, badass motherfucker? What if
Speaker 1: he comes looking for me? Zeb thinks I even bought
Speaker 1: a gun because I was just afraid of him. I
Speaker 1: was fucking terrified of this guy. Always kept it up
Speaker 1: in my closet and everything. You know. I took it
Speaker 1: out with me a few times just because I was
Speaker 1: fucking afraid, kept it in my car. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's legal or not, but I was just fucking
Speaker 1: terrified this human being. About two weeks after that out
Speaker 1: of the blue text exchange with Mickey, Zeb's at work
Speaker 1: and walks back out to his car. He sees a
Speaker 1: bunch of guys wearing FBI jackets. They're waiting for with
Speaker 1: a federal indictment. Zeb's been charged with transferring a firearm
Speaker 1: to a felon, an offense punishable by up to ten
Speaker 1: years in prison and a fine of up to two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Zeb is about to enter
Speaker 1: a criminal justice system that's rigged against him more after
Speaker 1: the break. No doubt, the FBI was hoping for much
Speaker 1: more with Zeb, some sort of headline grabbing criminal case
Speaker 1: related to a bomb plot or a plan to kill
Speaker 1: a politician. But Zeb never moved beyond tough guy talk,
Speaker 1: and tough guy talk isn't a crime. The FBI got
Speaker 1: Zeb on what's sometimes called a backup charge. FBI agents
Speaker 1: will often entice targets to commit lower level crimes, in
Speaker 1: Zeb's case, buying a gun for a felon, so that
Speaker 1: if the big case doesn't work out, at least they
Speaker 1: have something to show for all the work and all
Speaker 1: the taxpayer money poured into their investigation. In Zeb's case,
Speaker 1: there are two problems, and I think they highlight the
Speaker 1: fundamental absurdity and unfairness at work here. The first is
Speaker 1: that Mickey and the FBI had engineered a relationship with
Speaker 1: Zeb in which Mickey was the alpha. Mickey portrayed himself
Speaker 1: as dangerous and violent. He had pictures of dead ISIS
Speaker 1: fighters on his phone when Zeb bought the gun for Mickey.
Speaker 1: How much of what he did was driven by fear
Speaker 1: of Mickey? And I'm thinking, oh, yeah, this dude is
Speaker 1: fucking crazy, But I don't think it hit completely that
Speaker 1: he was complete fed at some points. But when he
Speaker 1: asked me to do that shit, I was like, whoa fuck.
Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't safe if I said no. And second,
Speaker 1: what Zeb did only happened because the FBI secretly enabled
Speaker 1: every step of the process. They gave him money to
Speaker 1: give to me. You know, right, so you use the
Speaker 1: So you basically use FBI money to buy a gun
Speaker 1: that essentially went back to the FBI. Yeah, your tax moment,
Speaker 1: Our tax moment. Zeb ultimately decided to plead guilty to
Speaker 1: his felony case. This is not at all uncommon for
Speaker 1: an American in his position. The federal criminal justice system
Speaker 1: is designed to produce plea deals. Over ninety seven percent
Speaker 1: of all criminal convictions in federal court are the result
Speaker 1: of plea agreements. This is due entirely to the horribly
Speaker 1: lopsided risk of taking a federal criminal case to trial.
Speaker 1: If Zeb had presented his case to a jury, pitting
Speaker 1: his overworked public defender against the limitless resources of the
Speaker 1: Justice Department, he would have risked spending up to ten
Speaker 1: years in prison. But if Zeb takes a plea deal,
Speaker 1: the Justice Department will recommend that he not spend any
Speaker 1: time in prison. I felt that if I fought it,
Speaker 1: they found some way to label me as a domestic terrorist,
Speaker 1: and so I figured, yeah, it's better to take the plea.
Speaker 1: Zeb has no real choice here. He's screwed. The house
Speaker 1: always wins, well, maybe not always. The summer of twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: all that anger and fear, can we really say anything changed? Maybe?
Speaker 1: I mean there's been some accountability. In Aurora, Colorado, the
Speaker 1: police officers and paramedics responsible for the death of Elijah McClain,
Speaker 1: the unarmed black man who was injected with a lethal
Speaker 1: dose of ketamine. They were indicted on state criminal charges,
Speaker 1: now a thirty two count indictment. Officers, a former officer,
Speaker 1: and two paramedics each face account of manslaughter and criminally
Speaker 1: negligent homicide. Four of the five also face assault charges,
Speaker 1: and a federal jury ordered the city and County of
Speaker 1: Denver to pay millions and damages to demonstrators who were
Speaker 1: injured by police during the protests. Denver has to pay
Speaker 1: up big time fourteen million dollars to twelve people over
Speaker 1: the police department's use of force during protest over the
Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd. This civil case was the first
Speaker 1: in the nation to take to trial accusations of police
Speaker 1: brutality during the summer of twenty twenty. A jury ruled
Speaker 1: in favor of protesters today who say dept violated their
Speaker 1: civil rights and used excessive force when officers used tear
Speaker 1: gas and fired pepperballs at them back in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: oh and remember Colorado Springs gendercover cop with her pink hair.
Speaker 1: Those activists got some results too. The city ended up
Speaker 1: settling a lawsuit with the family of the Von Bay
Speaker 1: who's fatally shot in the back by a police officer,
Speaker 1: for three million dollars. No doubt, public pressure and all
Speaker 1: those demonstrations played a role in making those small changes.
Speaker 1: In that way, Zeb and the other protesters accomplished something,
Speaker 1: but it came at a cost. For Zeb. He's pleaded
Speaker 1: guilty to a felony charge, and with his sentencing hearing
Speaker 1: coming up, he's concerned that, despite assurances to the contrary,
Speaker 1: the judge could sentence him to prison for using the
Speaker 1: government's money to buy a gun for the government's agent,
Speaker 1: who then gave it to the government. On September seventh,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, zeb walks into the federal courthouse in
Speaker 1: Denver for a sentencing hearing. An hour later, he calls me, Hey,
Speaker 1: what the d are you doing? Hey? Zeb, how are
Speaker 1: you add all right? Got a three years probation, They says,
Speaker 1: I could probably get off after one the probation, and
Speaker 1: the prosecutor they argued for three. My attorney argued for one.
Speaker 1: But they kind of tied it to political events coming up,
Speaker 1: maybe the twenty twenty four election and any other events,
Speaker 1: because they directly brought up the January sixth incident, saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the potential that if something like that
Speaker 1: happened again, mister Hawker just just swept up into it.
Speaker 1: So do you feel Do you feel good about it? Uh? No, dude,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't deserve it, and I don't feel
Speaker 1: good that they want to cover up the fact that local, state,
Speaker 1: and federal law enforcement caused violence here. I don't feel
Speaker 1: good about it. I don't feel good about it. So
Speaker 1: here's something interesting. During the hearing, Zeb's judge mentioned January sixth.
Speaker 1: Direction It's interesting because as the FBI and the Justice
Speaker 1: Department were focused on racial justice groups, they turned a
Speaker 1: blind eye to right wing extremists who ultimately stormed the
Speaker 1: US capital. David Bowditch, the FBI deputy director who compared
Speaker 1: the racial justice protests to nine to eleven, had said
Speaker 1: just days before January sixth, that the bureau was ready
Speaker 1: to respond to any problems. Boutich and the FBI were,
Speaker 1: of course, proven very wrong. After January sixth, Boutich quietly
Speaker 1: retired from the FBI. The immediate reaction among right wing
Speaker 1: news media and politicians was to tap into the same
Speaker 1: narrative they'd used during the summer of twenty twenty that
Speaker 1: Antifa was the boogeyman. We really don't know who is
Speaker 1: behind this. I guess you could call these, for lack
Speaker 1: of a better word, antifa like tactics. We don't know
Speaker 1: if Antiva is out there. January sixth, maybe it was Antifa.
Speaker 1: If Antifa was there, we need to root it out
Speaker 1: and to make sure that that's called out because it
Speaker 1: shouldn't be blamed on groups that weren't responsible. The last
Speaker 1: couple of times we've seen these rallies, it hasn't just
Speaker 1: been the President's supporters. We have seen Antifa, We have
Speaker 1: seen Black Lives Matter. These claims and many others like them,
Speaker 1: had an effect exaggerating the threat of anti fascist activists
Speaker 1: while downplaying the threat of right wing extremists. Even the FBI,
Speaker 1: from top to bottom, appeared to be influenced by the
Speaker 1: Antifa boogeyman claims. Here's Michael Jerman, a former FBI agent
Speaker 1: who regularly testifies before Congress. How can you not have
Speaker 1: seen the way the Proud Boys have committed violence all
Speaker 1: across the country in the four years prior to January sixth.
Speaker 1: They had committed violence in Washington, DC at Trump rallys
Speaker 1: in November and December of twenty twenty. Agents had fallen
Speaker 1: for the false narrative about Antifa activists, and that allowed
Speaker 1: for a deadly bias that somebody in a position authority
Speaker 1: of the FBI could have such a divergent view of
Speaker 1: the necessary preparations the FBI should be making for a
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protest versus an increasingly public white supremacists
Speaker 1: and far right militant violence, I think highlights that bias.
Speaker 1: In Senate testimony two months after the insurrection, Jill Sanborn,
Speaker 1: then the FBI's Assistant director for counter Terrorism, was asked
Speaker 1: why the FBI was unaware of social media communications concerning
Speaker 1: planning for the attack on the Capitol. Under our authorities,
Speaker 1: we cannot collect First Amendment protected activities without sort of
Speaker 1: the next step, which is the intent. And so we'd
Speaker 1: have to have an already predicated investigation that allowed us
Speaker 1: access to those comms and or a leader or a
Speaker 1: tip from a community citizen or a fellow law enforcement
Speaker 1: partner for us to gather that information. That isn't true.
Speaker 1: It's total bullshit, because that's exactly what the FBI did
Speaker 1: in Denver in the summer of twenty twenty. The issue
Speaker 1: in stopping January sixth wasn't the FBI's lack of power
Speaker 1: and authority. The issue was that the FBI was blinded
Speaker 1: by its own hand. It was running around trying to
Speaker 1: create bad guys in the racial justice movement while ignoring
Speaker 1: the very real bad guys who would soon bring violence
Speaker 1: to the US capital. On top of all that, the
Speaker 1: FBI helped us roy the racial justice movement. Just look
Speaker 1: at what happened in Colorado. Racial justice leaders like Trey
Speaker 1: Quinn began to disengage following the rampant mistrust that Mickey
Speaker 1: had created. The Denver chapter of the Young Democratic Socialists
Speaker 1: of America imploded after Mickey used the group in its
Speaker 1: members to bolster his credibility among the demonstrators. There's no
Speaker 1: longer a y DSA in Denver. Eventually, the mass demonstrations
Speaker 1: intended to call attention to the deaths of young black
Speaker 1: Americans at the hands of police. They stopped. Some of this,
Speaker 1: no doubt, was a natural occurrence. All political movements eventually stopped,
Speaker 1: but the FBI's undercover work in Colorado hastened that collapse.
Speaker 1: Mickey's work for the FBI follows a long pattern. The
Speaker 1: FBI did the same thing in the nineteen sixties. We
Speaker 1: had congressional investigations reforms, and we told ourselves, this doesn't
Speaker 1: happen anymore. But it does happen. It happened in Denver
Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twenty. That summer, President Trump
Speaker 1: and right wing media told us that we needed to
Speaker 1: be afraid of the Antifa boogeyman. It turns out they
Speaker 1: were right. There was an Antifa boogeyman. He drove a
Speaker 1: silver hearse filled with guns. He advocated for violence and destruction,
Speaker 1: and he was created and controlled by the US government,
Speaker 1: by the FBI. And now I need to find Mickey.
Speaker 1: I'm parked near some rundown apartments south of Denver in
Speaker 1: the city of Sheridan. There are two square, white buildings.
Speaker 1: Each building is split in half, with two units on
Speaker 1: each side, one upstairs, the other downstairs. The apartments are
Speaker 1: designed in what's known as shotgun style. If you were
Speaker 1: to fire a gun from the front door, it had
Speaker 1: passed through the back door, a straight line from door
Speaker 1: to door. This is the apartment that Cassie Windecker shared
Speaker 1: with Mickey, the same one where Mickey was arrested for
Speaker 1: grabbing Cassie by the neck and slamming her against the table.
Speaker 1: I had long assumed that Mickey wouldn't talk to me,
Speaker 1: after all, remember his life rule fucked the three piece,
Speaker 1: the politicians, the press, and the police. I mean, we
Speaker 1: know now that's not exactly true about the police. Mickey
Speaker 1: was a professional snitch, but I figured he was likely
Speaker 1: serious about at least one of the other peas. Still
Speaker 1: I want to find him to try to talk to him.
Speaker 1: While reporting out this podcast, I met with a lot
Speaker 1: of people who knew Mickey. Most were terrified of him,
Speaker 1: and many didn't want to be recorded or have their
Speaker 1: names revealed. Several of these people told me the same thing,
Speaker 1: Mickey isn't in Denver any longer. But then I did
Speaker 1: get this one tip. My best chance of finding him
Speaker 1: go to his old apartment. The guy who lives there,
Speaker 1: i was told, is Mickey's close friend in journalism. Doorstepping
Speaker 1: his industry slang for an unannounced visit. It's a last resort,
Speaker 1: you doorstep someone when other efforts have failed. And I've
Speaker 1: done this enough to know the likeliest outcome is that
Speaker 1: no one answers the door, even if someone is home.
Speaker 1: So I write a note, leave along with my business card,
Speaker 1: and say I'm interested in speaking with Mickey, but it's
Speaker 1: worked for the FBI. Hello. I can see inside through
Speaker 1: the closed screen door. The apartment is a mess, piles
Speaker 1: of stuff everywhere, with strangely several vacuum cleaners lined up
Speaker 1: against the wall. One of the bedroom doors is closed,
Speaker 1: and no one's responding. I placed my note in business
Speaker 1: card under the door, and I leave, and later that
Speaker 1: evening I get a surprise when Mickey actually calls me,
Speaker 1: but I missed the call and it goes to voicemail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is Michael Vindecker. This is the voicemail and its entirety.
Speaker 1: L you know now that address you went to a
Speaker 1: post in that piece of paper saying that I worked
Speaker 1: for the FBI, and shit, I don't live there. I
Speaker 1: haven't lived there at months. But if you post something
Speaker 1: a story about me saying I suppose I worked for
Speaker 1: the FBI, will sue the shit out of you. I
Speaker 1: will take you to court and I will break you
Speaker 1: off in court for declamation and character as slander. I've
Speaker 1: already notified my attorney about this. My previous land or
Speaker 1: notified me and seventy of these papers that you put
Speaker 1: on the old door I used to live that stating
Speaker 1: that I worked for the FBI. I do not work
Speaker 1: for the FBI. I've never worked for the FBI. Do
Speaker 1: a proof of me working for the FBI, then I'll
Speaker 1: say otherwise, but there's no proof because I didn't work
Speaker 1: for them. Don't be posting stuff on my old apartments
Speaker 1: to are my neighbors. My old neighbors are thinking that
Speaker 1: I'm an FBI consultant or whatever the hell it is. Okay,
Speaker 1: if you do that again, I promise you I will
Speaker 1: sue you. That's a guarantee. Don't fucking do that again.
Speaker 1: Don't come to my old house. Don't be posting stuff
Speaker 1: that's not true. Twenty minutes later, I receive another voicemail
Speaker 1: from a block number. I'm just letting you know. Michael
Speaker 1: Winnicker has not lived at this address for probably now
Speaker 1: since midfall last year. Remember, I had heard that a
Speaker 1: friend of Mickey's still lives at the apartment where I
Speaker 1: left the note. So I asked that you'd please not
Speaker 1: come by my address again. I do not need heat
Speaker 1: on my house. If you do come back by my
Speaker 1: house or apartment, I will notify my local law enforcement.
Speaker 1: Do not send anybody else in your police I do
Speaker 1: not mess around with stuff like this. Thank you for
Speaker 1: your time, good look, and goodbye. It doesn't take a
Speaker 1: master of deduction to figure out what likely happened here.
Speaker 1: I left the note by the door. Mickey's friend found
Speaker 1: it and he called Mickey. They then come up with
Speaker 1: a plan. The friend will call me and say he
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to reach Mickey, leaving me at a
Speaker 1: dead end. It's a solid plan, honestly, if Mickey's looking
Speaker 1: not to be found. But if this was the plan,
Speaker 1: Mickey screwed it up. This voicemail would have been the
Speaker 1: dead end. But Mickey couldn't stop himself from calling me first,
Speaker 1: and he does what we now know he does when
Speaker 1: he's cornered. He lashes out and makes threats he's going
Speaker 1: to sue me, Mickey claims break me off for defamation,
Speaker 1: as he put it. And Mickey didn't call from a
Speaker 1: block number, so I call him back and he answers, Hello, Hi,
Speaker 1: this is Trevor. I'm sorry I missed your call. Yeah, Trevor,
Speaker 1: this is Michael Bindeck. I got a call from my
Speaker 1: landlord that you posted a note on my older partment
Speaker 1: that used to prove that state and I was an
Speaker 1: h console or something like that. Yeah. So, so I'm
Speaker 1: a journalist and I'm doing a story on your work
Speaker 1: with the FBI during the summer of twenty twenty, and
Speaker 1: I've been trying to reach you, um twenty you did.
Speaker 1: I have records in video and audio proving this. Records
Speaker 1: in video and audio, will be working with the FBI.
Speaker 1: That seems kind of weird because I didn't work with
Speaker 1: the FBI. You were paid UM five thousand dollars every
Speaker 1: two weeks during the during your work with them. That's
Speaker 1: not true. Well that's what the records say. But I
Speaker 1: would love to talk to you about this. UM, I
Speaker 1: let to interview you about your work during the summer
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. No. See, the thing I don't do is
Speaker 1: I don't talk to the press. I don't talk to politicians,
Speaker 1: and I don't talk to police. So Mickey then threatens
Speaker 1: again to sue me for defamation if I report that
Speaker 1: he worked for the FBI, and he hangs up. So
Speaker 1: I call back. Do you reach Commandard your major Smokey
Speaker 1: at the tone? You know what to do. Hey, Mickey,
Speaker 1: this is Trevor Aaronson. I know you're probably surprised you
Speaker 1: have gotten my call, so I understand why you would
Speaker 1: have reacted the way you did. I just want to
Speaker 1: make clear that I have definitive proof that you are
Speaker 1: working with the FBI. These include records, these include audio,
Speaker 1: and these include video. And this is absolutely unambiguous. So
Speaker 1: what I'm hoping to do is to get you to
Speaker 1: kind of tell what happened. You know, getting your account
Speaker 1: of what happened is very important. I understand that you
Speaker 1: would have various reasons to not want to be exposed
Speaker 1: as an FBI informant, but that's likely going to happen
Speaker 1: no matter what with this project. So I would very
Speaker 1: much like to talk to you, So give me a
Speaker 1: call and let me know how he can how he
Speaker 1: might arrange this. Mickey has never responded. I followed up
Speaker 1: with text and additional calls. I've also sent them screenshots
Speaker 1: of some of the FBI undercover videos to prove to
Speaker 1: him that I'm not bluffing. Still nothing. He clearly doesn't
Speaker 1: want to talk to me about his work for the
Speaker 1: FBI during the summer of twenty twenty, and the FBI
Speaker 1: doesn't want to answer any questions either. The FBI's press
Speaker 1: office declined to make anyone available for an interview and
Speaker 1: refuse to provide written responses to a list of questions
Speaker 1: I sent. The day after Mickey calls me, a head
Speaker 1: over to zeb Hall's apartment in Denver. It's a three
Speaker 1: story building. Zeb's place is on the top floor. Inside
Speaker 1: the kitchen and living room are together a single room.
Speaker 1: It's sparsely furnished. ZEB has a large desk in the
Speaker 1: corner and a couch facing a television. What did you
Speaker 1: just doing a sound check? Okay, I set up my
Speaker 1: recording equipment. ZEB is setting in a chair next to
Speaker 1: his desk. I'm on his couch. So the first thing
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about was I finally
Speaker 1: got a hold of Mickey. Oh yeah, and he left
Speaker 1: me a message. One to play it for you and
Speaker 1: for your reaction. I play Mickey's voicemail for Zeb. Don't
Speaker 1: be posted it stuff on my old apartments for are
Speaker 1: my neighbors. My old neighbors are thinking that I've an
Speaker 1: FBI consulting or whatever the hell it is. Okay, if
Speaker 1: you if you do that again, I promise you I
Speaker 1: will suit you that the guarantee. Don't fucking do that again.
Speaker 1: I don't come to my old house. Don't be posted
Speaker 1: stuff is stopped? True? What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: But he got paid though it wasn't a donation. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, hey, man, I didn't work for him,
Speaker 1: but you know they gave me some brid for like
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, the payment records I have for Mickey
Speaker 1: appeared to be incomplete, but what I have shows he
Speaker 1: was paid every two to three weeks, sometimes five thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: sometimes a little less. I can confirm that he made
Speaker 1: more than twenty thousand dollars working for the FBI that summer,
Speaker 1: though I suspect Mickey earned significantly more. FBI informants can
Speaker 1: make an excess of six figures a year. The fact
Speaker 1: that was paid a lot of money by the FBI
Speaker 1: is significant because FBI internal reports suggest that Mickey wasn't
Speaker 1: motivated by money to work as an informant, but instead
Speaker 1: by a desire to be a good samaritan. Who is
Speaker 1: going to believe or want to work with a good
Speaker 1: samaritan who has all these charts, It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: Zeb's talking about Mickey's many criminal charges, including assault, sexual assault,
Speaker 1: and menacing with a weapon. American incident is best at
Speaker 1: the end of that point, I'm pretty sure there's some
Speaker 1: good people in the FBI. Well the FBI and sitting there,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a yeah, yeah, America didn't send its
Speaker 1: best in Mickey Windecker. I don't know if Mickey's still
Speaker 1: working for the FBI as a policy, the FBI will
Speaker 1: neither confirm nor deny that anyone is an informant. One
Speaker 1: of Mickey's friends had told me that he'd stopped working
Speaker 1: for the FEDS, and then he's now living in Nashville,
Speaker 1: clocking hours as a motorcycle mechanic. I called as many
Speaker 1: motorcycle shops in Nashville as I could find, and no
Speaker 1: one had heard of a Mickey Windecker. And it gave
Speaker 1: me chills just now, because he's a bad guy. Bad
Speaker 1: guys are tracking bad guys, and I feel like he's
Speaker 1: gonna keep doing this forever. Cassie, Mickey's third ex wife,
Speaker 1: had told me that Mickey is such a master of
Speaker 1: deception and has so many people who will cover for
Speaker 1: him wittingly and unwittingly, that it's impossible to know what's true.
Speaker 1: If someone claims Mickey's in Nashville, Cassie says, then it's
Speaker 1: a good bet he's not in Nashville. Cassie believes her
Speaker 1: ex husband is a kind of dark force, riding into
Speaker 1: town after town to extract financial game from the suffering
Speaker 1: of others. She thinks Mickey is out there, still working
Speaker 1: for the FBI and still trying to set up unsuspecting
Speaker 1: guys like zep Hal, Bryce Shelby and Trey Quinn. One
Speaker 1: thing I've learned is they will use a little fish
Speaker 1: to get the big fish. And I think in these
Speaker 1: cases they use the big fish to get all the
Speaker 1: little fish, because Mickey is he's a shark and not
Speaker 1: on the good, bad assway and nasty sharks, and you know,
Speaker 1: if they can get a bunch of little fish and
Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, just just just get people,
Speaker 1: you know, and hurt them, and you know, especially the
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matters thing. You know, when you told me
Speaker 1: about that, I was just like, great, this is like
Speaker 1: a carnival for him. He doesn't give a shit about people.
Speaker 1: He doesn't give a shit about helping people or you know,
Speaker 1: making their lives better. No, he's doing it to make money.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how much longer he's gonna keep roaming.
Speaker 1: This reads, but it's almost like talking about the night
Speaker 1: Stalker or something, you know, or Jeffrey Dahmer, like when
Speaker 1: are they gonna get caught? You know, they're out there
Speaker 1: and they're gonna do it again. I too, think Mickey's
Speaker 1: out there somewhere behind the wheel of a silver hearse
Speaker 1: secretly taking orders from the FBI. Well, I guess not
Speaker 1: so secretly anymore. This was Trojan Hearse Season one of
Speaker 1: Alphabet Boys and coming very soon season two. So you
Speaker 1: do personal security all over the world. You're connected to
Speaker 1: all these different people. It's an alphabet soup with the CIA,
Speaker 1: the d EA, and the FBI all mixed up in
Speaker 1: the same case. And you had to somebody call you
Speaker 1: and say, can you get grenades and nuns for this
Speaker 1: guy in Columbia? Specifi A lot of Ammunians Ammunisian. It's
Speaker 1: the story of a jet setting Romanian businessman, a brash
Speaker 1: Columbian drug runner, a call to the CIA, and a
Speaker 1: seventeen million dollar arms deal that goes really really wrong.
Speaker 1: At the center of everything is Flavia. But who is Flavia?
Speaker 1: When I land, there's Flavio in a suit, It's like
Speaker 1: follow me? Is he a secret agent? And he slams
Speaker 1: down his badge in my passport and they just stamp it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, something's going on here? Is he an
Speaker 1: arms dealer? You have your friends because I have right
Speaker 1: now in my n or is Flavio something else? Entirely?
Speaker 1: This college from an innate quis in Alphabet Boys Season
Speaker 1: two coming soon. Alphabet Boys is a production of Western
Speaker 1: Sound Nightheart Podcasts. It's reported, written and hosted by Me.
Speaker 1: Trevor Aaronson. Bennett Dare and I are the executive producers.
Speaker 1: Colin McNulty is our showrunner. The producer is Nicole McNulty.
Speaker 1: Original composition in mastering is by Alex mckinnis. Sound designed
Speaker 1: by Alex and Dan Leone. Eleanor Knight is our production
Speaker 1: assistant and fact checker. Additional production help from Victoria Sefflett
Speaker 1: Installa Hartman. Additional research by Marco Williams. Sam Pearson designed
Speaker 1: our cover art. Special thanks Brian Loma. Executive producers for
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts are Nick Stump, Bethan Macaluso, and Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 1: For more information about this series or to drop us
Speaker 1: a tip, head to Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can
Speaker 1: contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. We
Speaker 1: believe this story is important and could result in changes
Speaker 1: to FBI oversight in public policy. But to have impact,
Speaker 1: people need to hear the story, so we need your help. First,
Speaker 1: tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the
Speaker 1: best recommendations. Second, spread the word on social media. At
Speaker 1: alphabet boys dot xyz, you'll find FBI undercover recordings and
Speaker 1: secret documents. You can share the stuff the government never
Speaker 1: wanted public. Third, help us ride the algorithms by leaving
Speaker 1: a rating or review on your favorite podcast app that
Speaker 1: helps other people find us. And finally, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for listening.