1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: It's July twenty twenty one, and zeb Hal is going 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: to work. Get out of my car, you know, working 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: a nail net for a contract thirty bucks an Arrow'm 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: fucking happy. It's been nearly a year since he's seen 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: Mickey Windecker or really anyone involved in the protest scene. 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: And walk back to my car because I forgot something 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: came back out. Then I saw those letters as he's 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: walking back to his car. Zepsi's a man wearing a 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: blue jacket with three large yellow letters on the back. 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: He said, zebadiyas Hall. I was like, yeah, FBI. It 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: was hard for me to hear anything else after that. 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: And I'll just put my hands up in the air 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: because I'm thinking these dudes are gonna just fucking straight 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: up shoot me. I'm freaking out and shaking everything in 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: my I'm like, fuck, you know, I'm you know, I'm no, 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm getting arrested. FBI agents search zeb and his car, 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: they take his belt and his shoes. Then they take 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: me to like this holding sale and I'm freaking walk out. 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Zeb has just one question, was it Mickey. I'm Trevor 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: Aaronson from Western Sound and I heeart podcasts This is 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: Alphabet Boys, Episode ten, America didn't send its best. Among 22 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: the racial justice demonstrators in Denver, Trey Quinn is the 23 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: only one who was really onto Mickey. I think he's 24 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: I think he's fucking suspicious. Trey had proposed a hypothetical 25 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: idea to Mickey back in August twenty twenty, what if 26 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a neighborhood were set on fire, and Mickey told Tray 27 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: that he knew some guys who could make that happen. 28 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: Trey was smart enough to suspect that that's the behavior 29 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: of a FED, but Trey never has definitive proof until 30 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: the next month when he's arrested. I had the day off, 31 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: and when I went back to work the next day, 32 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: one of my courses like, Hey, yeah, the cops came 33 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: here looking for you and you weren't here. And I 34 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: was like, and I was like, oh shit, here we go, 35 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: Here we go. At the time, Tray's working out a 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: Sherwyn Williams. From inside through the windows, he sees a 37 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: police cruiser pull up right behind his car in the 38 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: parking lot, and I see two cops walking through the doors, 39 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: and then two more walk through the doors, and then 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: one more walks through the door and stands out the door, 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: and they come up and they like to trade Quinn, 42 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: you got one for your risk for insighting Ray and 43 00:02:58,480 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. And so I was like 44 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: no protests, saying I lead no protests, which was true 45 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: at this time. What Tree means is that as the 46 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: protests had become more violent with the attacks on the 47 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: police stations, he had backed away. So Trey wasn't technically 48 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: leading the protest any longer. And so then they cuffed me. 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: We get outside and there's a Shillottle cop cars out 50 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: there and tossed me in and whipped me away, just 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: voiced me away. He and five other organizers are arrested 52 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: that day for activities during the demonstrations. In twenty twenty, 53 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: Trays charged with inciting a riot, engaging in a riot, 54 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: false imprisonment, and obstructing government operations. When I was being 55 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: detained and questioned, they passed me off to the FITS. 56 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: Trey is taken into an interrogation room. And so when 57 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: the FETs came in the room and introduced themselves to me, 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: Mickey was the first name that they dropped for Trey. 59 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: Hearing the FETs mentioned Mickey from the very beginning. He 60 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: knew what that meant. They were trying to gauge his suspicion. 61 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean, why else would you do that? And so 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: I said, what do you know about Mickey? And they said, well, 63 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: we're trying to figure that out. And that's obviously a 64 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: tell right there. And so I knew right then and 65 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: there he's working with these guys. Prosecutors, after deliberating for 66 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: nine months, eventually dropped all the charges against Trey. The 67 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: five other protest organizers who are arrested also have their 68 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: charges thrown out. Their cases were bogus, but the damage 69 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: to the movement is done. Mickey's operation in Denver is 70 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: coming to a close as the FEDS, with the help 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: of local officials, start hauling in some of the people 72 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: he's been secretly recording. Well, they showed up at my house, 73 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: they showed up at the park that I was at 74 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: with my girlfriend and her daughter, and they showed up 75 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: at my best friend in's house. This is Bryce Shelby, 76 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: the guy who discussed with Mickey and the FBI undercover 77 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: agent a plan to assassinate Colorade as attorney general or 78 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: was it the district attorney A vague plot that ultimately 79 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: went nowhere. They said I was under investigation for pretty 80 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: much saying that was gonna murder the attorney general. This 81 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: was on November third, twenty twenty, the same day of 82 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: the presidential election. The cops seemed on edge, so they 83 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: patted me down and shit like that. And it was 84 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: really light first off, Like for your listeners, I'm not 85 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: trying to be amusement and poke fun and no ship 86 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: like that. But it was almost like they were still 87 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: scared in whatever way. It was like they were still afraid, 88 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: Like this motherfucker, he's still got something still, you know 89 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: what I mean. It was weird. They take Bryce's assault 90 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: rifle from his home, but they don't arrest him. Bryce 91 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: isn't being charged with a crime. Instead, local prosecutors use 92 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: the evidence the FBI collected to ask a court to 93 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: take away Bryce's gun for a year. Under Colorado's so 94 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: called red flag law, Bryce is a potential threat to 95 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: the community, prosecutors argue. Local media run with a story. 96 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: His name is Bryce Jordan Shelby and this is his 97 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: mug shot from twenty eleven. Law enforcement officials present Bryce's 98 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: case as if the assassination plot was something a lot 99 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: more than it was. This is from the local Fox 100 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: affiliate KDVR, as accuses Bryce Jordan Sidney Shelby I'm surveilling 101 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: Attorney General phil Wiser's Hall. The twenty nine year old 102 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: is now accused of plotting to shoot Attorney General Phil 103 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: Wiser in the head, Planning to shoot the state's top 104 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement official in the head and quote does not 105 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: care if a g Wiser's wife, dog, or children have 106 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: to die in the process, and adhering to take away 107 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: Bryce's firearms. A Denver police detective testifies that the FBI 108 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: had reached what he called an impasse and had not 109 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: been able to build a prosecutable criminal case against Bryce. 110 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: Probably gets a little blurred because I did say certain things. 111 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: So that's whatever they're in some way to put it 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: for intent and shit like that, you know what I mean. 113 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, not going through with any kind of plant 114 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: payments and shit like that. Yeah, no, you know, I 115 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: mean no, zeb Hall isn't as fortunate. After buying a 116 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: gun for Mickey and being there that strange night when 117 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: Mickey recorded the video making threats and saying he wasn't 118 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: a snitch, zeb backed away from all of it, and everyone, 119 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: including Mickey, things had gone too far, had become too dangerous. 120 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: The revolution that can wait, police say. Shelby, who self 121 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: identifies with the Black Panther Party, also said he wanted 122 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: to I woul eliminate the mayors and police chiefs of 123 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: Denver and Aurora. Zeb see's on the news that police 124 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: have taken away Bryce Shelby's guns. Zeb's been very slow 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: to come around to this conclusion, but by now he's 126 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: finally beginning to suspect that Mickey's an informant. So and 127 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: this is kind of bizarre given that suspicion. But Zeb 128 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: sends a link to a local news article about Bryce 129 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: to Mickey, and you know, that was when I text 130 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: Mickey out of nowhere, gonna say that, you know, I 131 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: guess fuck around, I'll find it out. And he says yep, 132 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: and kept it at that. That was in November twenty 133 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: twenty months pass and in July twenty twenty one, out 134 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: of nowhere, Zeb gets another text from Mickey. According to 135 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: an FBI internal report, agents asked Mickey to reach out 136 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: to Zeb an anticipation of securing an indictment against him 137 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: and to determine his whereabouts, checking to see how you're doing, Mickey, writes. 138 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 1: Zeb text Mickey that he's surprised to hear from him. 139 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: He also says he's distanced himself from everyone who's participated 140 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: in the demonstrations. I think you're paranoid, lol. Mickey replies, 141 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: nothing against you and your crew, but the past year 142 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: was dangerous, Zeb writes. At this point, Zeb is scared 143 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: of Mickey. Is he a snitch as people have claimed, 144 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: or is he just some crazy, badass motherfucker? What if 145 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: he comes looking for me? Zeb thinks I even bought 146 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: a gun because I was just afraid of him. I 147 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: was fucking terrified of this guy. Always kept it up 148 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: in my closet and everything. You know. I took it 149 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: out with me a few times just because I was 150 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: fucking afraid, kept it in my car. I don't know 151 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: if that's legal or not, but I was just fucking 152 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: terrified this human being. About two weeks after that out 153 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: of the blue text exchange with Mickey, Zeb's at work 154 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: and walks back out to his car. He sees a 155 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: bunch of guys wearing FBI jackets. They're waiting for with 156 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: a federal indictment. Zeb's been charged with transferring a firearm 157 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: to a felon, an offense punishable by up to ten 158 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: years in prison and a fine of up to two 159 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Zeb is about to enter 160 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: a criminal justice system that's rigged against him more after 161 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: the break. No doubt, the FBI was hoping for much 162 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: more with Zeb, some sort of headline grabbing criminal case 163 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: related to a bomb plot or a plan to kill 164 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: a politician. But Zeb never moved beyond tough guy talk, 165 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: and tough guy talk isn't a crime. The FBI got 166 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: Zeb on what's sometimes called a backup charge. FBI agents 167 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: will often entice targets to commit lower level crimes, in 168 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: Zeb's case, buying a gun for a felon, so that 169 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: if the big case doesn't work out, at least they 170 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: have something to show for all the work and all 171 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: the taxpayer money poured into their investigation. In Zeb's case, 172 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: there are two problems, and I think they highlight the 173 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: fundamental absurdity and unfairness at work here. The first is 174 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: that Mickey and the FBI had engineered a relationship with 175 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: Zeb in which Mickey was the alpha. Mickey portrayed himself 176 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: as dangerous and violent. He had pictures of dead ISIS 177 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: fighters on his phone when Zeb bought the gun for Mickey. 178 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: How much of what he did was driven by fear 179 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: of Mickey? And I'm thinking, oh, yeah, this dude is 180 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: fucking crazy, But I don't think it hit completely that 181 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: he was complete fed at some points. But when he 182 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: asked me to do that shit, I was like, whoa fuck. 183 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't safe if I said no. And second, 184 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: what Zeb did only happened because the FBI secretly enabled 185 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: every step of the process. They gave him money to 186 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: give to me. You know, right, so you use the 187 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: So you basically use FBI money to buy a gun 188 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: that essentially went back to the FBI. Yeah, your tax moment, 189 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: Our tax moment. Zeb ultimately decided to plead guilty to 190 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: his felony case. This is not at all uncommon for 191 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: an American in his position. The federal criminal justice system 192 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: is designed to produce plea deals. Over ninety seven percent 193 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: of all criminal convictions in federal court are the result 194 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: of plea agreements. This is due entirely to the horribly 195 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: lopsided risk of taking a federal criminal case to trial. 196 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: If Zeb had presented his case to a jury, pitting 197 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: his overworked public defender against the limitless resources of the 198 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: Justice Department, he would have risked spending up to ten 199 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: years in prison. But if Zeb takes a plea deal, 200 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: the Justice Department will recommend that he not spend any 201 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: time in prison. I felt that if I fought it, 202 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: they found some way to label me as a domestic terrorist, 203 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: and so I figured, yeah, it's better to take the plea. 204 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: Zeb has no real choice here. He's screwed. The house 205 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: always wins, well, maybe not always. The summer of twenty twenty, 206 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: all that anger and fear, can we really say anything changed? Maybe? 207 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's been some accountability. In Aurora, Colorado, the 208 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: police officers and paramedics responsible for the death of Elijah McClain, 209 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: the unarmed black man who was injected with a lethal 210 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: dose of ketamine. They were indicted on state criminal charges, 211 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: now a thirty two count indictment. Officers, a former officer, 212 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: and two paramedics each face account of manslaughter and criminally 213 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: negligent homicide. Four of the five also face assault charges, 214 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: and a federal jury ordered the city and County of 215 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: Denver to pay millions and damages to demonstrators who were 216 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: injured by police during the protests. Denver has to pay 217 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: up big time fourteen million dollars to twelve people over 218 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: the police department's use of force during protest over the 219 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd. This civil case was the first 220 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: in the nation to take to trial accusations of police 221 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: brutality during the summer of twenty twenty. A jury ruled 222 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: in favor of protesters today who say dept violated their 223 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: civil rights and used excessive force when officers used tear 224 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: gas and fired pepperballs at them back in twenty twenty 225 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: oh and remember Colorado Springs gendercover cop with her pink hair. 226 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: Those activists got some results too. The city ended up 227 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: settling a lawsuit with the family of the Von Bay 228 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: who's fatally shot in the back by a police officer, 229 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: for three million dollars. No doubt, public pressure and all 230 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: those demonstrations played a role in making those small changes. 231 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: In that way, Zeb and the other protesters accomplished something, 232 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: but it came at a cost. For Zeb. He's pleaded 233 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: guilty to a felony charge, and with his sentencing hearing 234 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: coming up, he's concerned that, despite assurances to the contrary, 235 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: the judge could sentence him to prison for using the 236 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: government's money to buy a gun for the government's agent, 237 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: who then gave it to the government. On September seventh, 238 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, zeb walks into the federal courthouse in 239 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: Denver for a sentencing hearing. An hour later, he calls me, Hey, 240 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: what the d are you doing? Hey? Zeb, how are 241 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: you add all right? Got a three years probation, They says, 242 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: I could probably get off after one the probation, and 243 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: the prosecutor they argued for three. My attorney argued for one. 244 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: But they kind of tied it to political events coming up, 245 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: maybe the twenty twenty four election and any other events, 246 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: because they directly brought up the January sixth incident, saying that, 247 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's the potential that if something like that 248 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: happened again, mister Hawker just just swept up into it. 249 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: So do you feel Do you feel good about it? Uh? No, dude, 250 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't deserve it, and I don't feel 251 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: good that they want to cover up the fact that local, state, 252 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: and federal law enforcement caused violence here. I don't feel 253 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: good about it. I don't feel good about it. So 254 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: here's something interesting. During the hearing, Zeb's judge mentioned January sixth. 255 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: Direction It's interesting because as the FBI and the Justice 256 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: Department were focused on racial justice groups, they turned a 257 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: blind eye to right wing extremists who ultimately stormed the 258 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: US capital. David Bowditch, the FBI deputy director who compared 259 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: the racial justice protests to nine to eleven, had said 260 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: just days before January sixth, that the bureau was ready 261 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: to respond to any problems. Boutich and the FBI were, 262 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: of course, proven very wrong. After January sixth, Boutich quietly 263 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: retired from the FBI. The immediate reaction among right wing 264 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: news media and politicians was to tap into the same 265 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: narrative they'd used during the summer of twenty twenty that 266 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: Antifa was the boogeyman. We really don't know who is 267 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: behind this. I guess you could call these, for lack 268 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: of a better word, antifa like tactics. We don't know 269 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: if Antiva is out there. January sixth, maybe it was Antifa. 270 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: If Antifa was there, we need to root it out 271 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: and to make sure that that's called out because it 272 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't be blamed on groups that weren't responsible. The last 273 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: couple of times we've seen these rallies, it hasn't just 274 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: been the President's supporters. We have seen Antifa, We have 275 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: seen Black Lives Matter. These claims and many others like them, 276 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: had an effect exaggerating the threat of anti fascist activists 277 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: while downplaying the threat of right wing extremists. Even the FBI, 278 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: from top to bottom, appeared to be influenced by the 279 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: Antifa boogeyman claims. Here's Michael Jerman, a former FBI agent 280 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: who regularly testifies before Congress. How can you not have 281 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: seen the way the Proud Boys have committed violence all 282 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: across the country in the four years prior to January sixth. 283 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: They had committed violence in Washington, DC at Trump rallys 284 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: in November and December of twenty twenty. Agents had fallen 285 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: for the false narrative about Antifa activists, and that allowed 286 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: for a deadly bias that somebody in a position authority 287 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: of the FBI could have such a divergent view of 288 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: the necessary preparations the FBI should be making for a 289 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protest versus an increasingly public white supremacists 290 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: and far right militant violence, I think highlights that bias. 291 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: In Senate testimony two months after the insurrection, Jill Sanborn, 292 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: then the FBI's Assistant director for counter Terrorism, was asked 293 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: why the FBI was unaware of social media communications concerning 294 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: planning for the attack on the Capitol. Under our authorities, 295 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: we cannot collect First Amendment protected activities without sort of 296 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: the next step, which is the intent. And so we'd 297 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: have to have an already predicated investigation that allowed us 298 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: access to those comms and or a leader or a 299 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: tip from a community citizen or a fellow law enforcement 300 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: partner for us to gather that information. That isn't true. 301 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: It's total bullshit, because that's exactly what the FBI did 302 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: in Denver in the summer of twenty twenty. The issue 303 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: in stopping January sixth wasn't the FBI's lack of power 304 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: and authority. The issue was that the FBI was blinded 305 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: by its own hand. It was running around trying to 306 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: create bad guys in the racial justice movement while ignoring 307 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: the very real bad guys who would soon bring violence 308 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: to the US capital. On top of all that, the 309 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: FBI helped us roy the racial justice movement. Just look 310 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: at what happened in Colorado. Racial justice leaders like Trey 311 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: Quinn began to disengage following the rampant mistrust that Mickey 312 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: had created. The Denver chapter of the Young Democratic Socialists 313 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: of America imploded after Mickey used the group in its 314 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: members to bolster his credibility among the demonstrators. There's no 315 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: longer a y DSA in Denver. Eventually, the mass demonstrations 316 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: intended to call attention to the deaths of young black 317 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: Americans at the hands of police. They stopped. Some of this, 318 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: no doubt, was a natural occurrence. All political movements eventually stopped, 319 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: but the FBI's undercover work in Colorado hastened that collapse. 320 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: Mickey's work for the FBI follows a long pattern. The 321 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: FBI did the same thing in the nineteen sixties. We 322 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: had congressional investigations reforms, and we told ourselves, this doesn't 323 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: happen anymore. But it does happen. It happened in Denver 324 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twenty. That summer, President Trump 325 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: and right wing media told us that we needed to 326 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: be afraid of the Antifa boogeyman. It turns out they 327 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: were right. There was an Antifa boogeyman. He drove a 328 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: silver hearse filled with guns. He advocated for violence and destruction, 329 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: and he was created and controlled by the US government, 330 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: by the FBI. And now I need to find Mickey. 331 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: I'm parked near some rundown apartments south of Denver in 332 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: the city of Sheridan. There are two square, white buildings. 333 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: Each building is split in half, with two units on 334 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: each side, one upstairs, the other downstairs. The apartments are 335 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: designed in what's known as shotgun style. If you were 336 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: to fire a gun from the front door, it had 337 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: passed through the back door, a straight line from door 338 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: to door. This is the apartment that Cassie Windecker shared 339 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: with Mickey, the same one where Mickey was arrested for 340 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: grabbing Cassie by the neck and slamming her against the table. 341 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: I had long assumed that Mickey wouldn't talk to me, 342 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: after all, remember his life rule fucked the three piece, 343 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: the politicians, the press, and the police. I mean, we 344 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: know now that's not exactly true about the police. Mickey 345 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: was a professional snitch, but I figured he was likely 346 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: serious about at least one of the other peas. Still 347 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: I want to find him to try to talk to him. 348 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: While reporting out this podcast, I met with a lot 349 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: of people who knew Mickey. Most were terrified of him, 350 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: and many didn't want to be recorded or have their 351 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: names revealed. Several of these people told me the same thing, 352 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: Mickey isn't in Denver any longer. But then I did 353 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: get this one tip. My best chance of finding him 354 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: go to his old apartment. The guy who lives there, 355 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: i was told, is Mickey's close friend in journalism. Doorstepping 356 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: his industry slang for an unannounced visit. It's a last resort, 357 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: you doorstep someone when other efforts have failed. And I've 358 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 1: done this enough to know the likeliest outcome is that 359 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: no one answers the door, even if someone is home. 360 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: So I write a note, leave along with my business card, 361 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: and say I'm interested in speaking with Mickey, but it's 362 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: worked for the FBI. Hello. I can see inside through 363 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 1: the closed screen door. The apartment is a mess, piles 364 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: of stuff everywhere, with strangely several vacuum cleaners lined up 365 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: against the wall. One of the bedroom doors is closed, 366 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: and no one's responding. I placed my note in business 367 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: card under the door, and I leave, and later that 368 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: evening I get a surprise when Mickey actually calls me, 369 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: but I missed the call and it goes to voicemail. Yeah, 370 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: this is Michael Vindecker. This is the voicemail and its entirety. 371 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: L you know now that address you went to a 372 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: post in that piece of paper saying that I worked 373 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: for the FBI, and shit, I don't live there. I 374 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: haven't lived there at months. But if you post something 375 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: a story about me saying I suppose I worked for 376 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: the FBI, will sue the shit out of you. I 377 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: will take you to court and I will break you 378 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: off in court for declamation and character as slander. I've 379 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: already notified my attorney about this. My previous land or 380 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: notified me and seventy of these papers that you put 381 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: on the old door I used to live that stating 382 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: that I worked for the FBI. I do not work 383 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: for the FBI. I've never worked for the FBI. Do 384 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: a proof of me working for the FBI, then I'll 385 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: say otherwise, but there's no proof because I didn't work 386 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: for them. Don't be posting stuff on my old apartments 387 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: to are my neighbors. My old neighbors are thinking that 388 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm an FBI consultant or whatever the hell it is. Okay, 389 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: if you do that again, I promise you I will 390 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: sue you. That's a guarantee. Don't fucking do that again. 391 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: Don't come to my old house. Don't be posting stuff 392 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: that's not true. Twenty minutes later, I receive another voicemail 393 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: from a block number. I'm just letting you know. Michael 394 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: Winnicker has not lived at this address for probably now 395 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: since midfall last year. Remember, I had heard that a 396 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: friend of Mickey's still lives at the apartment where I 397 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: left the note. So I asked that you'd please not 398 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: come by my address again. I do not need heat 399 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: on my house. If you do come back by my 400 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: house or apartment, I will notify my local law enforcement. 401 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: Do not send anybody else in your police I do 402 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: not mess around with stuff like this. Thank you for 403 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: your time, good look, and goodbye. It doesn't take a 404 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: master of deduction to figure out what likely happened here. 405 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: I left the note by the door. Mickey's friend found 406 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: it and he called Mickey. They then come up with 407 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: a plan. The friend will call me and say he 408 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to reach Mickey, leaving me at a 409 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: dead end. It's a solid plan, honestly, if Mickey's looking 410 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: not to be found. But if this was the plan, 411 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: Mickey screwed it up. This voicemail would have been the 412 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: dead end. But Mickey couldn't stop himself from calling me first, 413 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: and he does what we now know he does when 414 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: he's cornered. He lashes out and makes threats he's going 415 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: to sue me, Mickey claims break me off for defamation, 416 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: as he put it. And Mickey didn't call from a 417 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: block number, so I call him back and he answers, Hello, Hi, 418 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: this is Trevor. I'm sorry I missed your call. Yeah, Trevor, 419 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: this is Michael Bindeck. I got a call from my 420 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: landlord that you posted a note on my older partment 421 00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: that used to prove that state and I was an 422 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: h console or something like that. Yeah. So, so I'm 423 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: a journalist and I'm doing a story on your work 424 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: with the FBI during the summer of twenty twenty, and 425 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: I've been trying to reach you, um twenty you did. 426 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: I have records in video and audio proving this. Records 427 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: in video and audio, will be working with the FBI. 428 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: That seems kind of weird because I didn't work with 429 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: the FBI. You were paid UM five thousand dollars every 430 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: two weeks during the during your work with them. That's 431 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: not true. Well that's what the records say. But I 432 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: would love to talk to you about this. UM, I 433 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: let to interview you about your work during the summer 434 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. No. See, the thing I don't do is 435 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: I don't talk to the press. I don't talk to politicians, 436 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: and I don't talk to police. So Mickey then threatens 437 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: again to sue me for defamation if I report that 438 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: he worked for the FBI, and he hangs up. So 439 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: I call back. Do you reach Commandard your major Smokey 440 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: at the tone? You know what to do. Hey, Mickey, 441 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: this is Trevor Aaronson. I know you're probably surprised you 442 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: have gotten my call, so I understand why you would 443 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: have reacted the way you did. I just want to 444 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: make clear that I have definitive proof that you are 445 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: working with the FBI. These include records, these include audio, 446 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: and these include video. And this is absolutely unambiguous. So 447 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: what I'm hoping to do is to get you to 448 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of tell what happened. You know, getting your account 449 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: of what happened is very important. I understand that you 450 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: would have various reasons to not want to be exposed 451 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: as an FBI informant, but that's likely going to happen 452 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: no matter what with this project. So I would very 453 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: much like to talk to you, So give me a 454 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: call and let me know how he can how he 455 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: might arrange this. Mickey has never responded. I followed up 456 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: with text and additional calls. I've also sent them screenshots 457 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: of some of the FBI undercover videos to prove to 458 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: him that I'm not bluffing. Still nothing. He clearly doesn't 459 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: want to talk to me about his work for the 460 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: FBI during the summer of twenty twenty, and the FBI 461 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: doesn't want to answer any questions either. The FBI's press 462 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: office declined to make anyone available for an interview and 463 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: refuse to provide written responses to a list of questions 464 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: I sent. The day after Mickey calls me, a head 465 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: over to zeb Hall's apartment in Denver. It's a three 466 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: story building. Zeb's place is on the top floor. Inside 467 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: the kitchen and living room are together a single room. 468 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: It's sparsely furnished. ZEB has a large desk in the 469 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: corner and a couch facing a television. What did you 470 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: just doing a sound check? Okay, I set up my 471 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: recording equipment. ZEB is setting in a chair next to 472 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: his desk. I'm on his couch. So the first thing 473 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about was I finally 474 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: got a hold of Mickey. Oh yeah, and he left 475 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: me a message. One to play it for you and 476 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: for your reaction. I play Mickey's voicemail for Zeb. Don't 477 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: be posted it stuff on my old apartments for are 478 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: my neighbors. My old neighbors are thinking that I've an 479 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: FBI consulting or whatever the hell it is. Okay, if 480 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: you if you do that again, I promise you I 481 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: will suit you that the guarantee. Don't fucking do that again. 482 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: I don't come to my old house. Don't be posted 483 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: stuff is stopped? True? What do you think of that? 484 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: But he got paid though it wasn't a donation. You know, 485 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, hey, man, I didn't work for him, 486 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: but you know they gave me some brid for like 487 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, the payment records I have for Mickey 488 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: appeared to be incomplete, but what I have shows he 489 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: was paid every two to three weeks, sometimes five thousand dollars, 490 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: sometimes a little less. I can confirm that he made 491 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: more than twenty thousand dollars working for the FBI that summer, 492 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,959 Speaker 1: though I suspect Mickey earned significantly more. FBI informants can 493 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: make an excess of six figures a year. The fact 494 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: that was paid a lot of money by the FBI 495 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: is significant because FBI internal reports suggest that Mickey wasn't 496 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: motivated by money to work as an informant, but instead 497 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: by a desire to be a good samaritan. Who is 498 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: going to believe or want to work with a good 499 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: samaritan who has all these charts, It doesn't make any sense. 500 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: Zeb's talking about Mickey's many criminal charges, including assault, sexual assault, 501 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: and menacing with a weapon. American incident is best at 502 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: the end of that point, I'm pretty sure there's some 503 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: good people in the FBI. Well the FBI and sitting there, 504 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's a yeah, yeah, America didn't send its 505 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: best in Mickey Windecker. I don't know if Mickey's still 506 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: working for the FBI as a policy, the FBI will 507 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: neither confirm nor deny that anyone is an informant. One 508 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: of Mickey's friends had told me that he'd stopped working 509 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: for the FEDS, and then he's now living in Nashville, 510 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: clocking hours as a motorcycle mechanic. I called as many 511 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: motorcycle shops in Nashville as I could find, and no 512 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: one had heard of a Mickey Windecker. And it gave 513 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: me chills just now, because he's a bad guy. Bad 514 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: guys are tracking bad guys, and I feel like he's 515 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: gonna keep doing this forever. Cassie, Mickey's third ex wife, 516 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: had told me that Mickey is such a master of 517 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: deception and has so many people who will cover for 518 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: him wittingly and unwittingly, that it's impossible to know what's true. 519 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: If someone claims Mickey's in Nashville, Cassie says, then it's 520 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: a good bet he's not in Nashville. Cassie believes her 521 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: ex husband is a kind of dark force, riding into 522 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: town after town to extract financial game from the suffering 523 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: of others. She thinks Mickey is out there, still working 524 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: for the FBI and still trying to set up unsuspecting 525 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: guys like zep Hal, Bryce Shelby and Trey Quinn. One 526 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: thing I've learned is they will use a little fish 527 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: to get the big fish. And I think in these 528 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: cases they use the big fish to get all the 529 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: little fish, because Mickey is he's a shark and not 530 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: on the good, bad assway and nasty sharks, and you know, 531 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: if they can get a bunch of little fish and 532 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, just just just get people, 533 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, and hurt them, and you know, especially the 534 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matters thing. You know, when you told me 535 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: about that, I was just like, great, this is like 536 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: a carnival for him. He doesn't give a shit about people. 537 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: He doesn't give a shit about helping people or you know, 538 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: making their lives better. No, he's doing it to make money. 539 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: And I don't know how much longer he's gonna keep roaming. 540 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: This reads, but it's almost like talking about the night 541 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: Stalker or something, you know, or Jeffrey Dahmer, like when 542 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: are they gonna get caught? You know, they're out there 543 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: and they're gonna do it again. I too, think Mickey's 544 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,399 Speaker 1: out there somewhere behind the wheel of a silver hearse 545 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: secretly taking orders from the FBI. Well, I guess not 546 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: so secretly anymore. This was Trojan Hearse Season one of 547 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: Alphabet Boys and coming very soon season two. So you 548 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: do personal security all over the world. You're connected to 549 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: all these different people. It's an alphabet soup with the CIA, 550 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: the d EA, and the FBI all mixed up in 551 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,959 Speaker 1: the same case. And you had to somebody call you 552 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: and say, can you get grenades and nuns for this 553 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: guy in Columbia? Specifi A lot of Ammunians Ammunisian. It's 554 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: the story of a jet setting Romanian businessman, a brash 555 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: Columbian drug runner, a call to the CIA, and a 556 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: seventeen million dollar arms deal that goes really really wrong. 557 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: At the center of everything is Flavia. But who is Flavia? 558 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: When I land, there's Flavio in a suit, It's like 559 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: follow me? Is he a secret agent? And he slams 560 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: down his badge in my passport and they just stamp it, 561 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: and I'm like, something's going on here? Is he an 562 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: arms dealer? You have your friends because I have right 563 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: now in my n or is Flavio something else? Entirely? 564 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: This college from an innate quis in Alphabet Boys Season 565 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: two coming soon. Alphabet Boys is a production of Western 566 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: Sound Nightheart Podcasts. It's reported, written and hosted by Me. 567 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: Trevor Aaronson. Bennett Dare and I are the executive producers. 568 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: Colin McNulty is our showrunner. The producer is Nicole McNulty. 569 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: Original composition in mastering is by Alex mckinnis. Sound designed 570 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: by Alex and Dan Leone. Eleanor Knight is our production 571 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: assistant and fact checker. Additional production help from Victoria Sefflett 572 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: Installa Hartman. Additional research by Marco Williams. Sam Pearson designed 573 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: our cover art. Special thanks Brian Loma. Executive producers for 574 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts are Nick Stump, Bethan Macaluso, and Lindsay Hoffman. 575 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: For more information about this series or to drop us 576 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: a tip, head to Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can 577 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. We 578 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: believe this story is important and could result in changes 579 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: to FBI oversight in public policy. But to have impact, 580 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: people need to hear the story, so we need your help. First, 581 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the 582 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: best recommendations. Second, spread the word on social media. At 583 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: alphabet boys dot xyz, you'll find FBI undercover recordings and 584 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: secret documents. You can share the stuff the government never 585 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: wanted public. Third, help us ride the algorithms by leaving 586 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: a rating or review on your favorite podcast app that 587 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: helps other people find us. And finally, thanks so much 588 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: for listening.