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Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk about mindfulness these days, which

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Speaker 1: is fantastic. I mean, we all want to be more

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Speaker 1: present and self aware, more patient, less judgmental. We discuss

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Speaker 1: all these themes on the podcast, but it's hard to

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Speaker 1: actually be mindful in your day to day life. That's

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Speaker 1: of On Purpose get forty percent off a subscription to

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Speaker 1: your mind, Change life.

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Speaker 2: One third of our lives is potentially spent dreaming. Your

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Speaker 2: waking life is feeding your dream life. That's a solar

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Speaker 2: flare from your brain in a unique state that you

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Speaker 2: can't get to during the day. Dual trained brain surgeon

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Speaker 2: and neuroscientists Doctor Raoul Jandyall the measurements of emotion in

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Speaker 2: our dreaming brain can reach a top speed our waking

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Speaker 2: brain can never reach. How are you processing? How are

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Speaker 2: you metabolizing the most difficult thing in your day?

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, I've got some huge news to share with you.

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Speaker 1: In the last ninety days, seventy nine point four percent

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Speaker 1: of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are

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Speaker 1: not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that

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Speaker 1: if you want to create a habit, make it easy

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Speaker 1: to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a

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Speaker 1: habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed.

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Speaker 1: This would also mean the absolute world to me and

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Speaker 1: help make better, bigger, brighter content for you and the world.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe right now.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast Jay Sheety Jay

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Speaker 2: Shetty see Zy Sheet.

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Speaker 1: Everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, to number one health

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Speaker 1: podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one

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Speaker 1: of you that come back every week to listen, learn

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Speaker 1: and grow. I'm so excited because we've really been tapping

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Speaker 1: here On Purpose into things you're fascinated about questions that

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about, topics, you're exploring themes that you're wondering about,

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Speaker 1: and this was one of those that I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to share with you. This has been a theme I've

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Speaker 1: been fascinated about. We're talking to the expert, the person

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Speaker 1: who's thinking about it differently, who's open to the idea

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Speaker 1: of this truly being discovery, all based on curiosity. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Raoul Johndel is a dual trained brain surgeon and neuroscientist

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Speaker 1: at City of Hope in Los Angeles. Doctor John Deale

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Speaker 1: leads the John Deale Lab, which explores the intersection of

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Speaker 1: neurobiology and cancer. As part of his nonprofit that he founded,

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Speaker 1: he teaches and performs pediatric neurosurgery in charity hospitals in

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Speaker 1: South America and Eastern Europe. Today, we're talking about his

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Speaker 1: newest book out now, This is Why You Dream. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show, Roul John Dale Roll, It's great to

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Speaker 1: see you.

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Speaker 2: Pleasure of mind.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to do this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really grateful. And like I said to you, honestly,

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Speaker 1: this is usually when we're doing an interview, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna you know, I've got certain questions.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go with the flow and the amount

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Speaker 1: of questions we've had from our team, our audience, our community.

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Speaker 1: It's never happened before. I'm just telling you that. And

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Speaker 1: so you're going to see me reading out questions from

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Speaker 1: real people who've sent them in for you to understand

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Speaker 1: more about dreaming, which I think is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most undiscovered, untapped, misunderstood, or completely on on thestudy

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Speaker 1: areas of our lives. So let's dive straight into it.

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Speaker 1: And the first question I have for you is does

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Speaker 1: everyone dream?

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Speaker 2: I think so. So here's how I describe it. I

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Speaker 2: would first say, let's bust a major myth that dreaming

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Speaker 2: and sleep is a time of rest for our brains.

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Speaker 2: Our brains are not resting while we sleep. Just imagine

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Speaker 2: somebody lying down and when they're sleeping, the heart is

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Speaker 2: flickering a little bit of electricity from the EKG that

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Speaker 2: we put on the surface of their heart. We put

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Speaker 2: a bunch of stickers on the surface of the scalp,

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Speaker 2: and there's vibrant electricity while we're sleeping. The electricity our

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Speaker 2: brain generates while we sleep is as hot as the

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Speaker 2: electricity our brains are generating now, so that's the first thing.

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Speaker 2: The second thing is the heart when it's pushing up

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Speaker 2: the blood, the brain is mopping up glucose. It's burning

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Speaker 2: hot metabolically, so inside our skull while we're lying down,

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Speaker 2: even though we don't remember a lot of it, we're

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Speaker 2: burning hot and we're spark electricity. So people who remember

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Speaker 2: their dreams and people who don't remember their dreams, that

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Speaker 2: brain is still sparking hot and generating a lot of electricity.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's more of memory recall in the morning.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, we all know about a nightmare,

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Speaker 2: so we've all had one dream. The question is why

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Speaker 2: do some people dream more, dream less, or remember their

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Speaker 2: dreams more remember their dreams less. And that's something I

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Speaker 2: think is related to the variety of human experience. We

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Speaker 2: don't hold our waking thoughts to the same rigid contours, right,

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Speaker 2: so our dreamscape, our dream life is individual between us,

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Speaker 2: and we remember more when we're younger, we remember less as

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Speaker 2: we get older, and then in certain diseases, dreams come

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Speaker 2: to the rescue. And it seems now that at the

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Speaker 2: end of life, like with my cancer patients, dreams return

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Speaker 2: and they're filled with reconciliation. You would think in their struggle,

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Speaker 2: like you know, there would be dark, but they're actually positive.

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Speaker 2: So those patterns of dreams are there. The brain electricity

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Speaker 2: is firing while we sleep, and that's the sort of

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Speaker 2: foundation from which I try to find meaning.

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Speaker 1: And dreaming absolutely, I mean, the book is called This

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Speaker 1: Is Why You Dream? Why do we dream? And why

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Speaker 1: is it important for us to understand why we dream?

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Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of people say, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: dream sometimes sometimes I don't. Who cares? What's the big deal?

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Speaker 1: But I'm fascinated by it. I know a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are. So why do we dream? And why is

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Speaker 1: it important to try to understand why we dream?

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Speaker 2: The it's not a big deal. It's completely off for

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Speaker 2: those people who think it. If they understand one third

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Speaker 2: of our lives is potentially spent dreaming and the brain

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Speaker 2: shuts down right, it's just one third, like that can't

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Speaker 2: be passive and it puts you down right, Like you

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Speaker 2: get sleep pressure, like I got to sleep well when

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Speaker 2: I was in training in surgical training. We skip a

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Speaker 2: night of sleep. What happens when somebody skips a night

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Speaker 2: of sleep. The next night, they dream harder and earlier.

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Speaker 2: If I can be so bold, I think sleep is

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Speaker 2: for the brain. It's not for our thigh muscle, it's

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Speaker 2: not for our liver. There are some metabolic changes. I'm

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Speaker 2: not discounting all of it, but the real thing driving

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Speaker 2: us to sleep is our brain. What does our brain

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Speaker 2: do just vibrantly when we sleep, it's dream. So that's

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Speaker 2: like my straight up answer about like that thing that's

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Speaker 2: not happening on accident, right, that's not a glitch that

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Speaker 2: didn't last through thirty thousand generations accidentally. And so then

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Speaker 2: the question becomes if we have this vibrant one third

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Speaker 2: of our lives that we partially remember sometimes remember sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's an exciting journey, sometimes an erotic journey. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: a nightmare, like what's that all about? You know? And

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Speaker 2: the way I've come to understand it is, first, you know,

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Speaker 2: given respect to people who've tried to come up with

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Speaker 2: some ideas like it's a threat rehearsal if we're running

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Speaker 2: from a wooly mammoth and our dreams were better prepared

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Speaker 2: for during the day, what I would say is maybe,

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Speaker 2: And when I say maybe, you're likely it's not a

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Speaker 2: respect for you and your listeners. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: be that guy that comes in here says yes no

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Speaker 2: about something as big and magical as dreaming, so threat rehearsal.

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Speaker 2: Maybe some people think it's a nocturnal therapist because towards

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Speaker 2: the morning, when we have more of our vivid dreams,

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Speaker 2: the emotional balance, the valence they call it, tends to

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Speaker 2: be more positive. Maybe I like to think of it

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Speaker 2: as something that sparks creativity because of what happens with

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Speaker 2: the dreaming brain. The dreaming brain looks for looser dots

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Speaker 2: to connect. It's imaginative by design, logic is dampened down.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's our creativity engine. And then the

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Speaker 2: way I put it all together is with something straight

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Speaker 2: up called use it or lose it that people know

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Speaker 2: about when we talk about the brain, right, they say, hey,

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Speaker 2: use it or lose it. We know if we don't

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Speaker 2: use our biceps, the atrophy, but our day. If you

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Speaker 2: look at the brain, activation electricity is so narrow. The

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Speaker 2: brain wants to be efficient, right, because it's an energy hog.

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Speaker 2: It's only like four or five pounds, but it uses

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Speaker 2: twenty percent of our blood. So the brain during the

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Speaker 2: day to navigate the world task on outward. Executive network

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Speaker 2: logic wants to be efficient driving down the one to

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Speaker 2: one easily, going on the tube easily, not have to

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Speaker 2: activate everything to get that done. If we only use

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Speaker 2: those limited parts of our brain during the day and

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Speaker 2: didn't have some way to high intensity train them, those

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Speaker 2: would go derelic we wouldn't use them, and we may

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Speaker 2: lose them. So I think in the biggest way possible

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Speaker 2: is that dreaming process. Dreams and dreaming is high intensity

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Speaker 2: training for our brain. It keeps those corners engaged, It

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Speaker 2: keeps those neurons firing that might not during the day,

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Speaker 2: and those are available to us the next day for

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Speaker 2: a creative process for the next day, or the next year,

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Speaker 2: or the next generation for an adaptive process. That's my biggest,

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Speaker 2: most romantic way of thinking about about why we dream

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Speaker 2: so hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like them, maybe because I think we've all

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Speaker 1: had different dreams that you feel you had for different reasons,

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Speaker 1: And there are some dreams that you did feel well,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, like you're a nocturnal therapist, this feeling

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Speaker 1: of like Okay.

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Speaker 2: I'm healing them there, you're working something out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're working something out. I've definitely had dreams where

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Speaker 1: I feel like, oh my gosh, like this feels like

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Speaker 1: it's mirroring my reality and I'm either preparing or I'm

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Speaker 1: dealing with it internally. And I think you're so right

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Speaker 1: that there's so many different processes and it's hard to

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Speaker 1: it down to one. Is there a way to start

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Speaker 1: to label and define or do you think that's unhealthy

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Speaker 1: when it comes to dreaming?

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Speaker 2: Perfect question. So to the maybe, I'll add likely, you know,

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Speaker 2: not yes and not no when it comes to my dream,

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Speaker 2: your dream infinitely wild. Okay, but what happens when you

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Speaker 2: start looking at ten thousand dreams? What happens when you

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Speaker 2: start So I'm over here, so there is no like

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Speaker 2: professor of dream science. Right, So now I was like

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Speaker 2: when they asked me, the publisher asked me, like, can

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Speaker 2: you put a book together about this? I think we're

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Speaker 2: vibing about this before we uh, before we went live

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Speaker 2: with this or recording with this. And it was like

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Speaker 2: they're like, you wrote this thing about the brain, like

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Speaker 2: you know, smart drugs, Alzheimer's creativity. Then you wrote this

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Speaker 2: thing about the mind, like resilience and trauma and belief

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Speaker 2: and about your own struggles, why don't you put together

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Speaker 2: something about dreams from a scientific perspective that everybody can read.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, there's going to be so many gaps,

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Speaker 2: and they said, then let us know where the gaps are,

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Speaker 2: say maybe, say likely, and say I wonder, I believe,

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Speaker 2: And that's what I've tried to do in the book.

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Speaker 2: But to your question about when I started this process,

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Speaker 2: when I looked at not your dream, my dream, but

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Speaker 2: ten thousand dreams, Aristotle was writing about lucid dreaming a

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Speaker 2: couple hundred years ago, they're still writing about being chased

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Speaker 2: or falling, and I was like, wait a second, there

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Speaker 2: are patterns to dream reports, like now they have dream banks.

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Speaker 2: So the first thing I noticed was nightmares and erotic

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Speaker 2: dreams are essentially universal. And I say essentially because it's

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Speaker 2: ninety plus in this world is considered a hundred, right,

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Speaker 2: because that's just how science works when you look at

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Speaker 2: questionnaires and surveys, So everybody's at a nightmare, erotic dreams

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Speaker 2: are almost all the way up there. And then chasing falling,

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Speaker 2: falling teeth, that seems to be common. And then there

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Speaker 2: was a dream that was very rarely reported doing math.

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Speaker 2: I don't like math, so I was like, that's all

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Speaker 2: good for me. But but you start when you look

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Speaker 2: at lots of thousands of dreams, like why is that

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Speaker 2: one so low? Now walk with me over here. Then

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Speaker 2: you start looking at brain scans and brain electricity and

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Speaker 2: what happens. What's the difference between the waking brain and

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Speaker 2: the dreaming brain. Right in a twenty four hour cycle,

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Speaker 2: we're about two thirds waking brain and one third dreaming brain.

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Speaker 2: And there are some transition zones that I love, like

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Speaker 2: I call them liminal states or blurry zones that we

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Speaker 2: can get into. But that when you see that and

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Speaker 2: you say, well, what's the difference I started off with like,

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Speaker 2: they're both burning hot, they're both sparkling electricity, So what's

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Speaker 2: the difference. So when you go from waking brain to

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Speaker 2: dreaming brain, what happens is the need to look outward changes, right,

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Speaker 2: And so the executive network, a collection of structures, not

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Speaker 2: just one thing, dampens logic and math ability damping. They

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Speaker 2: don't turn off. Nothing turns off on the brain, otherwise

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Speaker 2: you know you'd have a stroke. So it dampens the

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Speaker 2: imagination network and the emotional systems called the limbic structures

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Speaker 2: are liberated. So if we know now that the dreaming

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Speaker 2: brain as a measurement, not my opinion, right, we can

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Speaker 2: talk about opinions, but this is a measurement. If the

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Speaker 2: dreaming brain has dampened logic and reason and math, liberated emotion,

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Speaker 2: hyper visual, it kind of makes sense why we don't

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Speaker 2: see a lot of math, because that part of the

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Speaker 2: brain that does that is to take in a back

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Speaker 2: seat while we dream. So I said, okay, even if

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Speaker 2: that's the only thing I can say in this book,

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Speaker 2: and some youngster, you know, ten twenty thirty years from now,

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Speaker 2: it takes more data from dream banks that are more

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Speaker 2: inclusive and bringing in more people that patterns of how

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Speaker 2: we dream, you know, and what we dream can be

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Speaker 2: explained by the brain. Thought to me, that was fascinating.

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Speaker 2: So dreams are not limitless. Yours is mine is when

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Speaker 2: you look at a lot of them, nightmares happen universally,

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Speaker 2: erotic dreams happen essentially universally, and then we find very emotional,

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Speaker 2: visual movement based dreams.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I mean, you don't even think about it

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Speaker 1: that way, and I think so often it's kind of

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because it's a microcosm of how we live

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Speaker 1: our lives, Like we live our lives thinking no one

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Speaker 1: understands me, no one knows what I'm going through, only

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Speaker 1: I have this experience. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: when you zoom out and you look at the patterns,

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Speaker 1: you're like, wait a minute, we're all struggling with the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I was just talking to someone earlier and

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Speaker 1: we were talking about how we seem to be the

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Speaker 1: problem solvers in our families, and then you start realizing, how,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, we're all trying to solve the same problems.

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Speaker 1: We're dealing with the same emotions, and those patterns are

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Speaker 1: so useful in finding so have they basically looked at

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Speaker 1: dream patterns and then looked at stress patterns and lifestyle patterns?

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Speaker 1: Like is that what you're measuring them against? Or what

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Speaker 1: are the patterns being measured against? So if out of

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Speaker 1: the ten thousand people, nine thousand people dreamt about their

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Speaker 1: teeth falling out, what then are we measuring in their

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Speaker 1: life to make sense of that dream?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. And also we tend to

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Speaker 2: fall into the same traps, right, I think that looking

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Speaker 2: at brain sigence shows that yes, we're individuals, but what's

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Speaker 2: driving us and what's holding us is also something we share.

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Speaker 2: That's why these conversations, that's why a certain book or

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Speaker 2: a certain song, or certain interaction can kind of liberate you.

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Speaker 2: And so the way I would explain this is the

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Speaker 2: dream patterns that they're looking at. And when I say they,

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Speaker 2: I mean twenty forty years of different studies, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to stitch it together. Let me give you a specific one.

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Speaker 2: There was one survey questionnaire where women going through divorce

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Speaker 2: when their dreams they were reconciling in their dreams, that

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Speaker 2: things were breaking up and people were moving on. Those

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Speaker 2: as a group tended to recover from divorce better. And

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Speaker 2: so when you just look into you just say, okay,

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Speaker 2: that's very interesting. Those that were struggling in their dreams

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Speaker 2: were also ones more likely to have depression longer. And

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Speaker 2: so what that does to me is that invites a conversation.

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Speaker 2: So does the dream or the dreaming brain kind of

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Speaker 2: give a clue to how well you're coping with your

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Speaker 2: real waking life. Stress, That by itself is powerful one

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Speaker 2: it knows about it. It ain't some other brain. It's

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Speaker 2: your brain, it's just in this dreaming mode, so it

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Speaker 2: knows about it. Your waking life is feeding your dream life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, six seven, eight hours, how are you processing,

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Speaker 2: how are you digesting? How are you metabolizing the most

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Speaker 2: difficult thing in your day? And I think that's where

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Speaker 2: I love it, is that it's not distinct and that

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Speaker 2: the dreaming brain can be your shepherd. It can be

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Speaker 2: the thing that helps you process emotional trauma. And for

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Speaker 2: people with PTSD, it can actually actually play back flashbacks.

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Speaker 2: So it's a wild space that leans emotional, leans visual.

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Speaker 2: Let me give you a second example with my patients

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Speaker 2: end of life cancer patients dreams are expansive, positive, filled

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Speaker 2: with reconciliation. As they're asking for surgery and all that.

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Speaker 2: You would think they're all going to be horrific because

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Speaker 2: it's dark time stress, right, You would think day stress

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Speaker 2: is turned into dreaming stress. But the connection is not clear.

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Speaker 2: And that's where I think there's power in our dream life.

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Speaker 2: I think, in general, when I look at all the surveys,

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Speaker 2: dreaming is our shepherd at the end of life. I

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Speaker 2: think nightmares and erotic dreams cultivate the young mind much

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Speaker 2: like our minds are cultivating adolescents. Dreams mirror and reflect

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Speaker 2: what's going on during our life. For example, pregnancy dreams

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Speaker 2: women who are pregnant, their dreams are very different rolling

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Speaker 2: over in bed what the babies are gonna be called.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes waking anxiety and dream anxiety clearly linked. I

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Speaker 2: gotta give a talk tomorrow. I got a dream showing

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Speaker 2: up naked. I gotta I gotta exam alarms. Sometimes they're clear,

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they're your companion. Pregnancy dreams, end of life dreams

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Speaker 2: sometimes are just jumped. Not everything's gonna make sense right,

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Speaker 2: Our waking life doesn't make sense. So I think when

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Speaker 2: you start to look at those categories, the fourth category

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Speaker 2: being universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams and children, then

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Speaker 2: the one we're left with that the one that now

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Speaker 2: I spend even more time with, is that hyper emotional,

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Speaker 2: hyper visual that lingers into the next day. What I

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Speaker 2: would say is, don't let that one go. That's a

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Speaker 2: solar flare from your brain in a unique state that

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Speaker 2: you can't get to during the day. Hyper emotional, hyper liberated.

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Speaker 2: The measurements of emotion in our dreaming brain can reach

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Speaker 2: a top speed. Our waking brain can never reach So

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Speaker 2: for me, when I look at the whole thing, the

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Speaker 2: hyper emotional, hyper visual with a central image is a

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Speaker 2: dream that has broken out from your dream life. That

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Speaker 2: is about you that a therapist can't get to. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's your brain conjured it and that's one to reflect on.

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Speaker 2: What I would say is like, not every time, not everyone,

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Speaker 2: but in our search for wellness and healing, that's a

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Speaker 2: free and accessible portal. And when I was working on

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Speaker 2: this book with the UK publishers, there were like seven

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Speaker 2: or eight people who are like, we're dreaming more, We're

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Speaker 2: remembering our dreams more. Some lucid you know, had lucid dreams.

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Speaker 2: So that's the second thing I would say is that

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Speaker 2: this can be induced and cultivated. You're not a passenger

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Speaker 2: with your dream life and what you remember from your

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Speaker 2: dream life. You can also cultivate that you're not a

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Speaker 2: passenger at that stage either.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Jay here. My wife and I have

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that a little. So I was gonna

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Speaker 1: ask you, if you don't remember your dream, if you

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Speaker 1: don't make the subconscious conscious, does that mean that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have an effect? And are you encouraging us to

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Speaker 1: take time to actually make the subconscious conscious and reflect

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Speaker 1: on our dreams.

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Speaker 2: I would say the first question is I can't answer

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Speaker 2: that fully. The second question is absolutely try to engage

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Speaker 2: your dream life sleep entry when you go from waking

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Speaker 2: to dreaming like Salvador Dali did or Christopher Nolan's talking

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Speaker 2: about inception sleep exit, which we can get into lucid dreaming.

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Speaker 2: The answer to the question should we engage our dream life? Yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: I got a lot of science on that. I got

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Speaker 2: to do it.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive. Let's let's dive into that. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: so many things I want to talk about, but let's

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Speaker 1: seeing as we've gone there now, let's let's dive into

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Speaker 1: it now. So let's talk about the process of being

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Speaker 1: more of a proactive leader in our dreams and not

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Speaker 1: a passenger in our dreams. What absolutely look right? Because

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Speaker 1: I would argue that anyone I talked to we're all

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Speaker 1: passengers in our dreams. We simply go to bed. We

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Speaker 1: may remember, we may not remember. We show up. It's

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Speaker 1: like the car Jenny, right, we jumped in the car,

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Speaker 1: you got to stap for a bit, you got to

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Speaker 1: the other side. Maybe you remember a tree you sore

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Speaker 1: along the way, or your mom and dad did something

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Speaker 1: when you were a kid, but you don't remember most

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Speaker 1: of it. It doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 2: You're in the driver's seat of a car you can't control.

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Speaker 2: It seems that way that one will get to with

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Speaker 2: lucid dreaming. But how you can affect your dreams, because

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Speaker 2: we've gotten to the science I believe the irrelevant. Let's

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Speaker 2: take this first stage. You go from waking to dreaming

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Speaker 2: right whatever time. That is not every time, not for everyone,

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Speaker 2: but just the fact that it's possible. That's something called

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Speaker 2: sleep entry. Okay, with those surface electros on our scalp,

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Speaker 2: the electricity blends. It's like a liminal state. Like I

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Speaker 2: used to be a scuba diver, when when you go

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Speaker 2: from a freshwater river to an ocean, it's not like

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Speaker 2: there's a crisp line, there's a blurry zone. Similarly, when

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Speaker 2: we go from waking to dreaming, there's about a ten

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Speaker 2: to fifteen minute period called sleep entry. Salvador Dali and

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Speaker 2: some current tech companies in San Francisco, they believe that

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Speaker 2: during that period you kind of sort of have access

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Speaker 2: to that divergent creative ideation of dreaming and that they

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Speaker 2: can extract ideas from there. So much so Thomas Edison

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Speaker 2: with the light bulb, would like would fall asleep in

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Speaker 2: a chair and when he'd fall asleep and he'd start

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Speaker 2: himself awake, he'd write down what he was thinking. That

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Speaker 2: that was a scene and inception. Right. So I'm just

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Speaker 2: up bringing the science in, But that's there. Christopher Nolan's

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Speaker 2: talking about that. Salvador Dolly wrote a book about that.

430
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: You know, his stuff is real, like the and so

431
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: what that period is the first entry into dream life

432
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: that you can still hold on to. And what we're

433
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,719
Speaker 2: finding is that people have more interesting ideas, they have

434
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: more divergent thinking and creative ideas at that window. Is

435
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 2: that But to be clear your trouble at work, you

436
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: got to create a project. Is that going to guarantee it? No,

437
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: But it's a habit of respecting that transition liminal zone

438
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 2: as a portal to a state your brain is not

439
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: in when you're awake or not in when you're dreaming. Right,

440
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: So that's one thing that people can do to cultivate

441
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: in that same area. Some people peel and report questionnaires

442
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: and surveys, not measurements that what you think about at

443
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: that time will be more likely to populate your dream life,

444
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: whether you remember or not, and may lead to the

445
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: aha moment the next day. Let me give you a

446
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: specific example. I'm a cancer surgeon. Cancer eats some blood

447
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: vessels and tissues in different ways on challenging cases. I'll

448
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: flip the images through. That's the last thing I go

449
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: to bed thinking about. And somebody asked me this in London.

450
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: They said, well, your dream of surgery. I said, no,

451
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: I've never dreamt. I've never dreamt a surgery, but I

452
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: have a lot of dreams of scuba diving, navigating mazes,

453
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: going through forests, and so what I concluded is my

454
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: opinion is that it's a three dimensional space. And I

455
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: know I'm working on a three dimensional creative project and

456
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: that my dream life is somehow rehearsing that, practicing that

457
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: providing me with that maneuver in a complex surgery. And

458
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 2: I say, manah, that was where did that come from?

459
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think it wasn't like in this scenario six,

460
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: I will come up with solution four. No, Like things

461
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 2: arise during our waking life, and I think that dreaming

462
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: brain builds that. So sleep entry for waking up intentionally

463
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: and writing down your thoughts and journaling at that moment,

464
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: journaling in general about what you want to dream about.

465
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 2: For me, looking at pictures about a surgery. Those are

466
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: specific things as you fall asleep that somebody can try.

467
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: Wow, that's fascinating because I think journaling has taken off

468
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: so much in culture, and.

469
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: I'm trying to bring some science to it.

470
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: I think the act of journaling straight after waking up,

471
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: like immediately. I know for a fact that if I

472
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: pick up my phone first thing in the morning, which

473
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: I try to avoid to do. But when it does happen,

474
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: I forget my dream immediately. Yeah, And I know I

475
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: wake up kind of of in a dream state and

476
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: then I completely shut it off. Have you found links

477
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: between going to sleep with your phone or without your

478
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: phone and how that affects our dreams? Or if you

479
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: watch a particular show and TV and how does that

480
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: affect your dream and what you do in the morning.

481
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: Does that have any correlation?

482
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: So that's a great question. The thing you said about

483
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: waking up, I'll get to that at sleep Exit because

484
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,959
Speaker 2: there's some interesting science there. But when you look at

485
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: all these surveys, that's why I open up with, like,

486
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: we need more dream banks. We need people who have

487
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 2: a great exposure to social media to start talking about

488
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: their dreams. At this point, it doesn't look like they

489
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: populate dreams. Let's take a specific example. Erotic dreams tend

490
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: to be about a narrow group of people in your

491
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: life family, even when you're younger, repellent bosses and celebrities.

492
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: So I'm curious to see like right, like So, now

493
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean there's one hundred papers on that, but

494
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: those are the spring, that's the sprinkling of information that

495
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: I saw, Like, so what becomes familiar to the bosses. Well,

496
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: you know people can have like awkward dreams about bosses,

497
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: is right, they have sexual dreams about people they actually

498
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: are not attracted to. That's a big category in erotic dreams.

499
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: But is there any reasoning to that specifically because being

500
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: erotic dreams about people you are not attracted to, Like,

501
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: where does that come from?

502
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's now we're getting into opinion.

503
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: I think it's a power dynamic play and I think

504
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: intimacy can be both collaborative and also a power dynamic

505
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: in some mix of it. All right, but that's just

506
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: that's an expiration. But erotic dreams, since we're there and

507
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: we'll get back to sleep exit is they're interesting. We

508
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: all get them. They come before we've done the erotic act,

509
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: even if we haven't seen it. So it's it's almost

510
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: like an instruction, if you will, an inheritance of thinking,

511
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 2: not just risk taking or mental health, but we inherit

512
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: those dreams. Even to people who never go on to

513
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: have sex, they still have erotic dreams, almost like a

514
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: playbook that's meant for a mind to activate our brain

515
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: and bodies for the act to pro create. That's the

516
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 2: big topic. The specific thing is across cultures, different over generations,

517
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: the percentages are surprisingly similar ninety plus. The other surprising

518
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: thing is that eighty to ninety percent in these reports,

519
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: infidelity cheating is common erotic dreams, whether you're in a

520
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: healthy relationship, whether you're lying about in a healthy relationship

521
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: and covening somebody else, or whether you're in a bad relationship.

522
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: It's almost like almost like a semi built in thing.

523
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: And I think that's how I've learned to think about

524
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 2: erotic dreams is that's just desire. It's like a flare

525
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: of desire. It interestingly tends to be toward a narrow group,

526
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 2: but the acts tend to be wild.

527
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: There's a few points that you made in the book

528
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: that fascinated me. Seeing as we're on the topic of

529
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: erotic dreams. I was sharing it with the team earlier.

530
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: So there's three things here, but let's go one by one.

531
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: So erotic dreams are not fueled by masturbation or pornography.

532
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: Walk me through that.

533
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: That's what some reports a decade ago mentioned that might

534
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: be changing. But what's interesting to me there is it's

535
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: not what we do during the day that shows up

536
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: in our erotic dreams. It's actually what we fantasize about

537
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 2: secretly during our day that's more likely to show up

538
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: in erotic dreams. And scientifically, to me, I think that

539
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense because the dreaming process is

540
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: the imagination network liberated, So it makes sense that what

541
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: you imagine in your dream life is more connected to

542
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: the fantasy you're having while you're awake. It doesn't matter

543
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: the sexual act the sexual person. That what brings someone

544
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: to climax, the thoughts they have during that process with

545
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: their lover, without their level. It's the internal thinking of

546
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: desire during the day that tends to find itself in

547
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: erotic dreams. And to me, that's consistent if you think

548
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: about the dreaming brain as something that has the liberated

549
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: imagination network. It's an imaginative process. Right your eyes are closed,

550
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: that movie you're making for yourself, So whatever you're thinking

551
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: about during the day, you know that's the movie you're

552
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: making at night.

553
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: So then getting back to what you're saying earlier, if

554
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: someone's in a happy relationship, but you're saying it's still

555
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: common for them to cheat in their dreams.

556
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: That's a separate pattern.

557
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a pattern that you've seen. So is

558
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: that an argument then that that doesn't may be happy

559
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: in the relationship, but then they're okay fantasizing.

560
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: I can't answer that. No, No, I love the question.

561
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: That's a deep question. What I would say to you

562
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: is from there what people ask us if you have dreams,

563
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: tend to have more bisexuality. So does that mean you

564
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: have your bisexual you just haven't figured that out or

565
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: you're not sharing that with somebody during the day. I

566
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: can't answer that, But I think as we bring in

567
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: more reports from dream banks and bring in more cultures,

568
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: more backgrounds, more genders, and more diverse sort of perspectives

569
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: on sexuality, we'll get insights into that. But that's a

570
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: very individual thing. So as a a whole, there's a

571
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: lot of cheating in erotic dreams. As a whole, what

572
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: shows up in our erotic dreams is what we imagine

573
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: and then it leaves it to the person. That's why

574
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: I open with like, you know, people have asked me like,

575
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: if you dream of your ex, does that mean you

576
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: really want them? I was like, well, if you're just

577
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: seriously thinking to still thinking if you're hung up on

578
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: them during the day, you're dream about your ex, that

579
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: means one thing. But if you're like, no, I've really

580
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: moved on and the lover pops up in your dream,

581
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: I think that's just a solar flare of desire. I

582
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't make much of that.

583
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: I think that's the hard part, right. I think what

584
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: we don't know is how seriously to take some of these,

585
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: to take a dream or not, because I feel like

586
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people exactly like you just said, you

587
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: have a dream about something, you're thinking, oh God, maybe

588
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: I need that, maybe I don't. And is that a

589
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: lack of self awareness? Is it because the dream is

590
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: not clear? Like? How do we how have you thought

591
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: about that as you've reflected on dreaming, How do we

592
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: get better at knowing whether to take a dream seriously

593
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: or not? Because I feel like that would help solve

594
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: so much a conundrum or dilemmas that's created by dreams.

595
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big question. It's a big question. It's

596
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: a big question.

597
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: I'd thought.

598
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, my opinion about it is that one, dreams should

599
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: not be neglected. Okay, nightmares if they pop up and

600
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: they arrive out of the blue, they shouldn't be neglected.

601
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: I think dreams that are flashbacks after PTSD obviously should

602
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: not be neglected. So there's some dreams that have an

603
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: easier rule to follow if you will. But then what

604
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: about those other dreams that you're bringing up right, like

605
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: intensely emotional to linger with you during the day, and

606
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: you're wondering like, wait a second, is that an insight

607
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: to myself that I don't even have yet about myself?

608
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: Should I discuss this with a therapist? Should I discuss

609
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: this with my lover? And I think the way I've

610
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: started to reflect on my dreams a bit more is

611
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: that when they are hyper emotional, it's an invitation to

612
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: look at your life differently. I feel like I'm doing well,

613
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: I'm high achieving, I'm doing this. I'm not. You know,

614
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: you feel like, no, it's fine, I'm dealing with a

615
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: broken relationship. But if you start having nightmares, or if

616
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: you have emotional dreams that are filled with fright or regret,

617
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that that there's never an automatic link,

618
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: right other than showing up naked at a podium or

619
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm not going off, But the one that's powerful haunts

620
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: you doesn't make sense. That's an invitation to think about

621
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: something and back to our original conversation. To me, that's

622
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: a life well examined is paying attention to the emotional,

623
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: powerful dreams that you have that linger with you. The

624
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: dream is symbolic to get to your answer in the

625
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: most specific way. The dream is a metaphor. The dream

626
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 2: is symbolism because from the dreaming brain and you've hyper visual,

627
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: hyper emotional. It's not going to spell it out for you.

628
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: It's going to be metaphorical. It's going to be symbolic.

629
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Specific example, Vietnam veterans who had PTSD got better, they

630
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: start going through divorce, they're not and they're struggling. They're

631
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: not dreaming of divorce, they're dreaming of war again. So

632
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: the experiences you're having, they're an invitation to reflect. The

633
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: meaning is metaphorical and symbolic, all based on how the

634
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: dreaming brain is built, and it's personal. It's hard to

635
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: say a bridge or a light bulb in your life

636
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: at this moment is going to be the same meaning

637
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: for me at this at this moment in life, or

638
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: my life ten years from now, not just former versions

639
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: of myself. So I'm not here to refute anything, but

640
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: it's a very personal process. Your brain made it. It's

641
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: hyper it's an emotion to a hyper emotional state. It

642
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: could mean nothing, it could mean something. But what I'm

643
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: here to say is take a look at it. Yeah,

644
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: it's not just static.

645
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: No, I think that's I completely agree with you. I

646
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: think it's a great point, and I feel like it's

647
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: really interesting because it then goes back to the idea

648
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: that humans are meaning makers and that way story and

649
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: if you're looking at a me a lot on that man,

650
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: then you're trying to figure out and if you have

651
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: a if you have a negativity bias in your conscious mind,

652
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: I wonder how much like I'll give an example. I

653
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: was talking to someone the other day and they were

654
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: saying that they'd been dreaming about bears, and so I

655
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: started googling what that means, and I was gonna ask you,

656
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: and I was googling about it. It was really interesting

657
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: because in a conscious state, a big bear feels scary

658
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: and it feels like death, and it feels like run away.

659
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: And that's how they saw a bear in their dream.

660
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: But then when you look at the dream, spiritual version,

661
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: whatever you call it, the interpret Sorry, when you look

662
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: at dream interpretation, the interpretation of that was bears represent

663
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: strength and they represent courage, and they have the symbol

664
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: and the now goo. So it's it depends.

665
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends on which brain conjured up which image. Yeah,

666
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: you work in the circus, bear means one thing, you know,

667
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: your hunter, bear means one thing you know. In culture,

668
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: bear means something else. So I like that. But just

669
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: to go back to something that you know, I've been

670
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 2: I've been moving around and people have asked me stuff.

671
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: The question you just asked is something special about are

672
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: we meaning makers? And now this is gonna take me

673
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: a little time to open up on this. But but

674
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: what's what's interesting, and again I don't have all the

675
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: answer this conversation, is that in the dreaming brain, even

676
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: though the logic and reason areas are dampened, specifically the

677
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: dorsal ladder prefrontal cortex, it's right behind our sort of

678
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: horns in the prefrontal cortex that pushed our brains forward,

679
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 2: there's another area called the medial prefrontal cortext that's preserved.

680
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: It stays throbbing, it's actually liberated a little bit. And

681
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: you know what that one does. It does something we

682
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 2: only figured out when we accidentally injure it or somebody

683
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: has a stroke in that area. It stitches the story

684
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: of our life together. Right, And so what's happening this

685
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: is this is this is cool. What's happening is your

686
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: emotions and your vision centers and your movement centers are

687
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: just firing up stuff linked directly and directly to the

688
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: stuff you feted during the day, the stuff your life feted, right,

689
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: your life, your memory plus the imagination and then the

690
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: media prefrontal cortex is they're putting a story to it. Dreams,

691
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: often not always are stories. They have a narrative component.

692
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: They're emotional, they're visual, they have a narrative component. Our

693
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: brains want to make a cohesive story. I know that

694
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons, and the dreaming brain is

695
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: something that also preserves that. And some have even extended

696
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: that say like, well maybe that's why we can you know,

697
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: we get movies that have jumps of ideas, people go

698
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: from one place to the other, like our dreaming. The

699
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: way we dream prepares us for the way we appreciate art. Right,

700
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: so we can let that go this way on this

701
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: on this side some of my patients with certain complications

702
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: and certain tumors and different things, they'll wake up and

703
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: they won't feel certain parts of their body and they'll

704
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: develop something called neglect, or they'll develop something what it's

705
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: called confabulation. It's a fancy word for lying. When the

706
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: body signals are disconjugate, they don't make sense. The brain,

707
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: the mind will make up a story to make it

708
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: all fit. And some patients have actually tried to throw

709
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: a leg they don't feel off the bed and they say, oh,

710
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: that was a stranger. And so you see things with

711
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: the injured brain and the healing brain that there's a

712
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: drive within us sometimes will even lie to ourselves and

713
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: others to create a consistent or a story that makes

714
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 2: sense to ourselves meaning. And I think if you look

715
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 2: at that at the brain level, and you look at

716
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: that at the dreaming level, what I try to tell

717
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: people my first book is look at that at the

718
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: life level. Like our maturation isn't done just with adolescens.

719
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: R work has to continue to cultivate your brain and

720
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: your mind and your life. So when you get through

721
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: a struggle and you get through it, that prepares you

722
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: for the next one. If you're in a struggle. Now,

723
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 2: that's just overwhelming, like something difficult, so hard. Don't worry

724
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: because you're cultivating that stress, stress for the next one.

725
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: And I think all of those pieces not measurements, but

726
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: my opinion that we are meeting makers. We are storytellers

727
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: in the moments of our lives, in our dreaming brain,

728
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: in our life in general, and the area where stories

729
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: and emotions are the wildest with our dreams. And that's

730
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: where I think why we dream is something bigger than

731
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: just threat rehearsal. I think it's something powerful when we

732
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: wake up. And that clarity is because are some consciousness

733
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 2: had its run?

734
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: Are people having when you look at the data, are

735
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: people having the same dream again and again and again

736
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: or are they having different dreams every night?

737
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 2: Well that's a good question. So there are recurrent dreams.

738
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 2: It's a specific example. The only thing I can say

739
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 2: with certainty is dreams come our brain. We do these

740
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: exotics brain surgeries where we wake people up to map

741
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: the surface of their brain. You don't feel. You wouldn't

742
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: know if I touched your brain if the situation ever rose,

743
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: which it won't. But like the brain doesn't feel, the

744
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: brain feels through its nerves, so we can dissect the

745
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: brain in somebody while they're talking. The point there is

746
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 2: is not to scare anybody. That's a therapeutic process. But

747
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: when we tickle and map the brain, they'll say, oh,

748
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: I remember this nightmare from when I was a kid.

749
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: You can activate a recurrent nightmare in a patient by

750
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: tickling the surface of the brain. So dreams come from

751
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: the brain. There are recurrent dreams. There are that's individual.

752
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: There are common dreams across people falling, being chased, teeth

753
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 2: falling out. There are universal dreams, so you start to

754
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: see all these patterns. A recurrent dream is a loop

755
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: of electricity in that part of your brain that pops

756
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: up again and again. It must be because if we

757
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: take a little faint pen and tickle it and you

758
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: have that dream again, that's that's built into the electrical

759
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: flows of your brain. So we have to step back

760
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: a little bit when you ask those questions because there

761
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: are so many different dream types and dream experiences. I

762
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: don't want to give a single answer. But recurrent dreams

763
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: are loops of electricity that happen over and over again.

764
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: We can actually activate that and then universal dreams common

765
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: dreams and rare dreams. Is how I conceptualize it.

766
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: What does someone do if they have a recurrent dream

767
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: that they don't want to have?

768
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: Any big question? Okay, so let's look at that. So

769
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: now we got the foundation waking brain, dreaming brain, hyper imaginative,

770
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: hyper emotional. You're cooking up, you're creating the events of

771
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: your dreamscape. And I found this to be very powerful

772
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: that nightmares since we imagined them. The treatment for nightmares

773
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: is something called imagery rehearsal therapy. Now I'm not a therapist.

774
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: I mean I take care of a lot of cancer patients.

775
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: I'm more than ten thousand in my life, So there's

776
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: there's a cultivation that I have benefited from from them

777
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: trusting me. So I think I have some sense of

778
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: understanding of human nature. But therapy, when you try to

779
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: help somebody through conversation talk therapy, right, that's great. It

780
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: seems to be effective. That's out there. What they're finding

781
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: is imagery rehearsal therapy. It's a new thing where imagine

782
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: what you want to be, imagine something you don't want

783
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: to have. And when I read that, I was like,

784
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can sink my teeth in

785
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: that until I started reading about nightmares and learning about

786
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: nightmares and across all different sciences that if you practice

787
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: before you go to bed, going back a bit to

788
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: your saying that we can actually feed our dreams. If

789
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: you practice a new script for the ending of your nightmares,

790
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: you can rescript your nightmares through something called imagery rehearsal therapy.

791
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 2: People can look it up and not every time, not

792
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: for everyone, but just the fact that nightmares can be

793
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: rescripted is powerful. That you think you're out of control,

794
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: but you can feed your dreams, you can steer your dreams,

795
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: and lucid dreaming as the prime example of that, and

796
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: that therapy can guide you to a better conclusion in

797
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: your dream. I love that as a scientist because it's

798
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: the imagination network. You've imagined this nightmare, and it's powerful

799
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 2: to think now you can actually imagine a different kind

800
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: of ending for this nightmare. To me, that's all scientifically consistent,

801
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: and to me, that's why I think it's powerful to

802
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: look at dreaming as more magical, more fascinating, that it

803
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: is being driven by certain brain processes. Right, so you

804
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: don't wake up and say, ah, that's a glitch that's static. No,

805
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: there's something drove that. Learn about the engine behind it,

806
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 2: and then reflect about the meaning about it.

807
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I mean I can relate to that.

808
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: I feel like there have been parts of my life

809
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: where I've been able to code the emotion and feeling

810
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 1: and script that I wake up with by what I

811
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: put into the code before I go to bed. And

812
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: so at one point in my life when I was

813
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: trying to wake up early and I didn't enjoy it,

814
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: and my reaction to waking up early in the morning

815
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: would be, Oh, I'm so tired. I just want to

816
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: stay in bed. I just you know, And I wanted

817
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: to wake up early. I believed that was a worthy

818
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: pursuit and a habit to invest in, and so I

819
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: would before I went to bed, I would say to myself,

820
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: I am waking up energized, happy and healthy. And so

821
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: even that rescripting in the evening, I found I would

822
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: wake up and I would be saying that to myself

823
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: when I woke up, and there was this direct link

824
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: between a script that I didn't have it written in

825
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: the morning. I didn't have it there, but that repetition

826
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: would carry over in the morning and I found whenever

827
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: I used it, it worked, and whenever I don't use it,

828
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: I can still wake up and feel, oh God, why

829
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: am I waking up so early? And so I've sensed

830
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: moments of that, or I've had experiences of that and

831
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: that coding or that imagery rehearsal therapy that you mentioned.

832
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: I would love for our audience to practice a community

833
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: to try it out and see how it shows up

834
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: in your life, because I think what we don't realize

835
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: is you're subconsciously rehearsing anyway.

836
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right, whatever you do, the work is going on,

837
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: you're doing it, work with it.

838
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever you're watching, reading seeing that is imagery rehearsal.

839
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: It's just not therapy and it's not conscious. But we're

840
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: doing imagery rehearsal throughout the day and before we go

841
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: to bed.

842
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 2: And it adds a big question here. So when you

843
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: when you say something like that, it ties into positive thinking,

844
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 2: wish fulfillment, all these these nebulous terms that I think

845
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: some people really embrace. Other people poo poo, and they

846
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: say that can't be true. Or I say something in

847
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: the middle that through studying about dreams and dreaming, I've

848
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: learned about, Like, what's the biology of how what you

849
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: just described about. I think about something before I go

850
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: to bed, and it helps me wake up, and I'm

851
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm feeling it more. I'm thinking about it

852
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: more in the right way, Like that's just out there right.

853
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: That feels like there's like a kite flight and flying

854
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: above our head. What I'm trying to get people to

855
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 2: understand is the dreams, if they can be defined, are thoughts, emotions,

856
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: and activities that are actually happening at the brain level.

857
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: That's what's sparkling all that electricity. If I'm running in

858
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: a dream, the motor strip that moves my legs, the

859
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: neurons they are firing, the signals just aren't getting through.

860
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: So then what that does is it opens up a

861
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: whole new world of athletes practicing the shot in their mind,

862
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: positive reinforcement, going to bed, and rescripting your dreams right journaling.

863
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 2: Like people are like, okay, so there's brain activity that's

864
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: leading to this mind that I want to get my

865
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: mind to lean a certain way, and the brain activities

866
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: driving that. And so the people say, well, how that happened.

867
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: I would give you the example of placebo and So

868
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: when you believe a medicine is going to help you,

869
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 2: even if I tell you, look, that's there's nothing active

870
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: in it. That's just like sugar. That's just something that

871
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: has no capacity to change by the pill itself the

872
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: physiology of your body. But belief is enough to make

873
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: people feel less pain. And I can give you a

874
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: scientific explanation about how that happens. Belief you're armed with neurotransmitters,

875
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 2: that electricity that we're measuring, the chemicals that are floating around.

876
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: Think of the brain as like one hundred billion microscopic jellyfish,

877
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: and is there's like electric storms and waves of neurotransmitters

878
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: flying around in there. When you believe, the pharmacy of

879
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: your mind is actually releasing chemicals and things that generates

880
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: different electricity, that alleviates pain, that prepares your brain and

881
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: mind for rescripting the nightmare, that makes positive, gives you

882
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: the scientific basis possibly for positive reinforcement. Positive relationships like

883
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 2: these are actually not just emotions, but they're working at

884
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: the level of the brain. That's powerful.

885
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I loved that description. And as

886
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: you were saying that, I was thinking about this. It's

887
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: all coming back to an intentionality of programming, a like

888
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you is just this idea of

889
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: get active, get involved, be conscious, be aware. I was

890
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: thinking about. I remember during the pandemic, I probably hadn't

891
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: up until the pandemic, I probably hadn't watched TV or

892
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: played video games for like ten years, like consistently at all.

893
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: And I think the pandemic kind of you know, had

894
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: had time and we were indoors and all the rest

895
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 1: of it. And so I started watching TV. I remember

896
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: one of the shows I was watching, which I really

897
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: enjoyed watching, was Ozark, and I can I remember watching

898
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: Ozark every day for thirty days in a row, and

899
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: it's not even the scariest show. And while I was watching,

900
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: I probably didn't feel anything. And somehow I felt that

901
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: I had dreamed every night that my house was being

902
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: broken into like that that was an experience that I

903
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: was having and I connected to because it's someone who

904
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: didn't have nightmares as an adult and as someone who

905
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: didn't watch that much TV. Those are the only two

906
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: changes that I'd at least not is.

907
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: Or if we get back to that, it's symbolic. Maybe

908
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 2: is the stress of the pandemic. I mean, so it's

909
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: never going to be pinned down exactly. But you're right.

910
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: The paying attention to the patterns of your dreams more

911
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: than just a dream unless it's higher emotional. But the

912
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: pattern of dreams, I think is an important thing to do.

913
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: And how does our waking life feed our dream life?

914
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 2: What I would tell you is when color television arrived,

915
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: the magazines the dream reports show a bump in people

916
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: having color color dreams, like there were more black and

917
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: white dreams when TV was black white, And I was like, wait,

918
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 2: but the world is in color. And what I'm saying

919
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: to you is that's why this topic is so fresh

920
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: because it doesn't all make sense. The science gives some insight,

921
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: and the exploration reveals there's so many things we don't understand.

922
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: The take home is it's not a it's not a

923
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: passive process. It's not something that is coming from the

924
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: gods or omens. It's your brain giving you thoughts, emotions, dreams,

925
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: and potentially insights that you can't have access to with

926
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 2: your waking brain. And to me, that's a special portal.

927
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 2: And how people cultivate that, I think it's up to them.

928
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: I'm here to let people know that there's a rigorous

929
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: science behind the brain biology, brain chemistry, brain electricity that

930
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: drives dreaming.

931
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that bump in color television. I can't

932
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: imagine when we have enoughdates to look at the social

933
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: media bump, right, because to me, it's bizarre to feel

934
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: that I'm exposed you to show social media pornography. Being

935
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: on the online world doesn't lead to specific or certain.

936
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: Dreams, especially with the hours that people putting in, right, Yeah, exactly,

937
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 2: So that would be the next wave. And my hope

938
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 2: is that somebody listening to this, you know, as I mentioned,

939
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: I'm fifty one, I've got three sons eighteen ninety teen,

940
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: twenty two in college. Like, my hope is somebody walks

941
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: away and says, oh wait, some of the stuff about

942
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: dreams can be explained by the brain. Because imagine in

943
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years how much more data will have through

944
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: people with online dream banks, and how much more will

945
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 2: know about neuroscience. Imagine the connections that somebody's sitting here

946
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: playing different roles than us can make. And so it's

947
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 2: more of a it's an inception. I want people to

948
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: be ignited that dreams can some parts of dreams can

949
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: be made sense of.

950
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to dive back into nightmares because as

951
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: a child, I grew up having a lot of nightmares.

952
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,479
Speaker 1: I don't I remember one of them very vividly, even

953
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: till today. I don't dream about it anymore, but I

954
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: remember waking up in the middle of the night feeling horrified.

955
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: And you talk about in the book how children have

956
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: the most nightmares, like it's common children have five times

957
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: as many nightmares as adults. You say, even the gentlest

958
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: childhood is no protection against nightmares. And I think that's

959
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: really unnerving for parents when their kids having nightmares. I

960
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: have friends who have kids who tell me like, oh God,

961
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: she just doesn't sleep, she has nightmares, And it's like

962
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:07,919
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure it out. And I mean, you're

963
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: a father, so it's interesting to hear how you may

964
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: have felt about that. I'm sure a lot of us

965
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: listening right now are thinking, God, I definitely had nightmares

966
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: as a kid. When you're having that as a kid,

967
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: it can be so unnerving. It can be so difficult,

968
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: even more than as an adult, because you really feel powerless.

969
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: What have been some Have there been any therapies or

970
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: remedies that have helped, But then you go on to

971
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: say that nightmares are needed. So walk me through there.

972
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: All right. So when I was thinking about this book,

973
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: I was rolling around in La going to different spots

974
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 2: and sort of just bouncing around people, you know, regular

975
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: people at Dodger Stadium, and often I got the question, like,

976
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 2: all right, you're going to talk about dreams and dreaming.

977
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: You need to have a new take on it. But

978
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: clearly nightmares can't be good for you, right, There's no

979
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: use for nightmares. And I thought I got to take

980
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: this one head on in chapter two. And so when

981
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: I look at that, I would ask people to think

982
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: of nightmares based on age, and we do that in

983
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 2: the hospital and medicine and surgery and science where they're

984
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: sort of age related. Pediatric and adult is what I

985
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: would say. We've talked about adults, flashbacks, nightmares. If they

986
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: y paid attention to them, they could be a warning

987
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: flair for some mental health issues. You get them more

988
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: in depression. You know, we've left that how to explain

989
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: nightmares and kids is an exploration, it's a conversation. I

990
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: think it's fresh. And I looked at a bunch of

991
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 2: pieces that helped me sort of come up with an idea,

992
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: a story, if you will. So if you look at

993
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: the first thing about nightmares that struck me is you

994
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 2: have to say, hey, Johnny, that was only a nightmare.

995
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: It's only with nightmares that we tell our kids that's

996
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 2: only a nightmare. So as a conversation, does that mean

997
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: Johnny was blurring dreaming brain thoughts and waking brain thoughts

998
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: until that moment. So that's a power. I'm not saying

999
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: I have the answer. I'm just I'm leaving that with

1000
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: your audience. There's one nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares

1001
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 2: wake you up and they see your memory. Okay, just

1002
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: like our kids learn to walk and talk, our mind

1003
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: is being cultivated. So they have these families that signed

1004
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: all the kids up to be woken up and talk

1005
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 2: about their dreams for like twenty years in a row.

1006
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: They're called longitudinal kids. When they start talking, their dreams

1007
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: are like a table, you know, a sweater. Then they

1008
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 2: get more imaginative, and what happens is five ' sixt'

1009
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 2: seven nightmares arrive. What else is arriving? They're developing visuospatial skills,

1010
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 2: and they're also developing this thing called theory of mind.

1011
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: People can look up these terms that children at some

1012
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: point developed the ability to look at somebody and say

1013
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: that smile. I don't think they mean well, mind reading,

1014
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: reading the other person's intention, right. That arrives theory of

1015
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 2: mind at the same time as nightmares. So my biggest

1016
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: way to conceptualize that is nightmares arrive in children to

1017
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 2: help them develop a sense of self versus other help them,

1018
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: not a sense of identity, but that my thoughts and

1019
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 2: my experiences are mine, My waking life and dream life

1020
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 2: are separate, and that I need to think of myself

1021
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 2: as different from my uncles and aunts and other people

1022
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 2: around me. And I think that's the function of nightmares

1023
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 2: and children. You may have had them a lot, but

1024
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 2: they arrive and then very few of them lead to

1025
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: nightmare disorder, like it doesn't ruin there the next day.

1026
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 2: So it's almost sort of like whereas an adults, nightmare

1027
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 2: disorder means the residue is lingering with you. So when

1028
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: you look at the patterns children learn to work, we'll

1029
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: walk and talk. Nightmares arrive around four or five, six, and

1030
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: most of them go away. Erotic dreams around like eleven, twelve, thirteen,

1031
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 2: and persist in some way. Adolescences arise around fifteen sixteen.

1032
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: But these are cognitive changes. The brain looks about the same.

1033
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: It's not like a new low pops up. These are

1034
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 2: cognitive changes that are happening. So I think nightmares cultivate

1035
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 2: them mind, mind and children. They arrive and fade things

1036
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 2: that happen that universally and science aren't accidental. And it's

1037
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 2: the it's the dream we've always had that all of

1038
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 2: us have had as a nightmare.

1039
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's super fascinating to me, super fascinating.

1040
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: It's an exploration.

1041
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it is such a it's so interesting

1042
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: how we're so addicted to certainty and conclusiveness.

1043
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of stifling. Yeah, it's very rigidity to it, right,

1044
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: do this, don't do this, this will save you, this

1045
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: won't say no. But the dreaming process leaves it open, like, yeah,

1046
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 2: we're just beginning to understand it's personal. Keep digging, keep exploring,

1047
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 2: fail better. I think that's what that all shows us.

1048
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: What why? I feel like what the conversation we're having

1049
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: exposes a weakness that we have across so many areas

1050
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: of our life, which is that we're uncomfortable with uncertainty. Yeah,

1051
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: and we constantly feel discomfort when we can't control. And

1052
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: I think dreams are like the ultimate version of that.

1053
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 2: Dreams are like, hey, just to remind you you need uncertainty. Yeah, yeah,

1054
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: Let me dig into that a little bit. I have

1055
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: some ideas about that, like when we fall asleep and dream.

1056
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: The executive networks dampen. Let me reverse a bit. Most

1057
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: of the day is something we call task on. It's

1058
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: outward and the brain the executive network. Reason logic is

1059
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 2: paying attention. Of course, food scarcity, right, Willie mammitz. It

1060
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: makes sense those who are best at paying attention outward,

1061
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 2: navigating the world and using as little amount of calories

1062
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: and brain energy. That seems like that would be a

1063
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: natural adaptation. Well, what I would tell people is when

1064
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: we're not tasked on, the brain doesn't rev down like

1065
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: your computer like goes and then you have to hit

1066
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: the keyboard to pop it up. No, it creates a

1067
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 2: mental life of its own, right, that's the imagination network.

1068
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 2: So during the day we're mostly executive network outward. But

1069
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 2: if there's nothing to do with mind wandering or things

1070
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: are safe, we turn back into our own head. Dreaming

1071
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 2: is the example of that, but just suffused with like uncertainty,

1072
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: and so the question becomes the day is so focused

1073
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: on thinking, calculating. Adrenaline is up. Adrenaline finds the signal

1074
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 2: in the noise. They've done studies where they change that,

1075
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: and then the dreaming brain is kind of the opposite.

1076
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: Adrenaline comes down. You're looking for looser patterns, divergent thinking,

1077
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 2: designing a car, not fixing an engine. To me, to me,

1078
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 2: the uncertainty that the dreaming brain goes through. That's our

1079
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: genius built in. We don't We actually don't want to

1080
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: become too rigid in our habits. It might be okay

1081
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: today going on the freeware, going on the tube, as

1082
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 2: we mentioned, but that's not the process your brain needs

1083
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 2: to be in to be the most adaptive for heartache,

1084
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: for falling in love, for a kid, getting sick, for

1085
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: the uncertainty the environment will give us, and the uncertainty

1086
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: we almost want to engage in love affairs and adventures.

1087
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: I think that's the balance. Get things done, Try not

1088
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 2: to be too rigid, try to be open minded and

1089
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: appreciate that your dreaming brain is gonna take you there,

1090
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 2: whether you want it or not. That's the love story

1091
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: of uncertainty and creativity.

1092
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's I'm gonna flip flop because we talked

1093
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: about uncertainty and creativity, but I want to go into

1094
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: lucid dreaming and this idea of wanting some control in

1095
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: the uncertainty. But before we get there, I wanted to

1096
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: go back to sleep exit because I don't think we

1097
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: talked about sleep entry, but we didn't finish sleep exit.

1098
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: And that works because sleep exit that dampened executive network,

1099
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: that damp and adrenaline that looks for the signal and noise.

1100
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: It seems to come back on. And if an alarm

1101
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 2: goes off, we know it comes back on. Like you

1102
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: could be dreaming and sleeping you smell smoke. The executive

1103
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: network is the boss. It will pop back on and dominate.

1104
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 2: And so if you do grab your phone in the morning,

1105
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: I check emails too quickly or jump on Instagram, like,

1106
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: your brain will go to that forward task on feature

1107
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 2: and the residue or the lingering feelings of your dream

1108
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: life will necessarily be put in the backseat. And so

1109
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: if you do want to remember your dreams more as

1110
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: you wake up, if you have the luxury of a

1111
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 2: bed and time and not an alarm. That's a critical

1112
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 2: windows sleep exit to sort of hold onto your dream

1113
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 2: thoughts and your dream experiences. It's an imperfect process, but

1114
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: I can tell you people who have tried, they get

1115
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: better at it. And again, it's free, it's accessible, it's

1116
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: from your own brain. I think it's one of those

1117
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: habits that I've incorporated my life for the last five

1118
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 2: ten five ten years.

1119
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: I get what exactly.

1120
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: So what I do is if I have the luxury,

1121
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: because I do now I didn't for a long time.

1122
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: I mean, the phone calls and pages are going off

1123
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, and now it's more

1124
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: like if I wake up in the morning, I try

1125
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 2: to linger, I try not to move. And there's different

1126
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 2: types of yoga. The people have been talking about a

1127
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: lot of stuff like this for centuries and millennia, and

1128
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: I'm just adding some scientific pieces that support it. But

1129
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to not have my executive network kick in.

1130
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: I'll keep my eyes closed. I'll run through some thoughts.

1131
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: So that's interesting, hold none that Whishould I do that?

1132
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 2: Like I have my sleep exit thinking or moments if

1133
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 2: you will, and then I'll reach over and I'll go

1134
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: to my notes app. It's write on the home screen,

1135
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 2: and I'll write a few things down. When I have ideas,

1136
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: I mean i'd say a great majority have come from them.

1137
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: They're almost all bad ideas, but that is the idea generator.

1138
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 2: If I've had a good idea, it's been during that time.

1139
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: It's rarely. It's rarely, like at two o'clock on a

1140
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 2: triple espresso. Right. That's important because we have to get

1141
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 2: things done. But the dreaming process, sleep entries we talked about,

1142
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: and sleep exit I think are interesting portals where there

1143
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: are sort of blurry liminal states that we have a

1144
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: different type of thinking without it being just like wildly psychedelic.

1145
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's measured, but it's a fresh perspective. It's

1146
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: a different take on the things that are important in

1147
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 2: your life at that moment.

1148
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, even the language of sleep entry and

1149
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: sleep exit is so powerful.

1150
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: Well, I got to you know, but this calls hypnogogic

1151
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: and hypnopopic. So the first thing I'm out there is like,

1152
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: stop using these words that suck, right, like a terrible Yeah.

1153
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. Yeah, even hearing you say I've I've

1154
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: never heard the word sleep entry and sleep exit before. Yes,

1155
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: and personally really like that language because I think we

1156
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: don't think about it like that. And it's so funny

1157
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: how we we enter buildings, we leave buildings, we enter spaces,

1158
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: we leave spaces, and sleep is kind of like that.

1159
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: And we are talking about evening routines and morning routines,

1160
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: but this was almost a bit more intimate to both

1161
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 1: sides of that.

1162
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 2: It's the essential routine. I'll just sleep entry and sleep exit.

1163
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 2: What I love about it is that I can put

1164
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 2: stickers on your scalp our scalps and record the electricity

1165
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: and be like, look the waves you are measurably, not

1166
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 2: just by report like, hey, I'm feeling different. I get that.

1167
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: I trust that that's individual. But the brain waves during

1168
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: sleep entry and sleep exit have a pattern. They overlap

1169
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: in a way that never happens while you're awake or

1170
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: while you're dreaming. All right, So that's why I want

1171
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 2: people to walk away like it's not just his thing.

1172
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: He's looking at the fact that he can measure that

1173
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 2: this is a different space right now. Yeah, yeah, No,

1174
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean it's powerful or not. That's for you

1175
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 2: to figure out. But we can measure sleep entry and

1176
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 2: sleep exit, and it looks different on a twenty four

1177
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 2: cycle of brain waves. And how long does it lost

1178
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 2: was different for different people, and people seem to cultivate it.

1179
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 2: But Salvador Dali's written about it said, you know, anywhere

1180
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 2: from two to twelve minutes.

1181
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: That's how long you have.

1182
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's it's personal, but it's real as for

1183
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 2: everybody to figure out for themselves.

1184
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: You know, by like the two to twelve minutes, it

1185
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: gives us a gauge sure as to how long do

1186
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 1: you not let you executive brain turn on in the morning.

1187
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: And because there's science, there's tech companies coming up with

1188
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: a little you know, your iPhone or Apple watch is

1189
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 2: tracking your stages of sleep and when people are in

1190
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 2: that sleep entry, it'll buzz them to wake up, like

1191
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: Dolly tried, and they'll and that that's their way of

1192
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 2: write down what you're thinking now as sort of the

1193
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: tech approach to creativity. It's interesting, right, how does.

1194
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: I mean talking about the tech approach again? Another tangent

1195
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: because aspect I'm like completely obliterated any form of structure,

1196
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: but it's it's great. Where do you see the cross

1197
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: section of AI and dreams, like where can it be useful?

1198
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: Where will it be helpful with this? Where will it not?

1199
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: Will it help us ask better questions? Is it going

1200
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: to help us take better notes? Is it going to

1201
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: help us?

1202
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not a computer scientist, but I'll

1203
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 2: tell you two things. They're making programs that add noise

1204
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: because sometimes the patterns and algorithms of computers become so

1205
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: rigid like our daily thinking, that they can't handle the

1206
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,919
Speaker 2: insertion of new data. And that's sort of mirrors what's

1207
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 2: going on like that's it's called overfitted. The computer process

1208
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 2: and algorithm design is too tight, too efficient, and that

1209
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: learning from dreaming, they find that the computer system is

1210
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: more adaptive when they add in noise. Where artificial intelligence

1211
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 2: fits in, I'm not sure, but tech is all over it.

1212
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: They're tracking the data from smartphones and certain people you're volunteering.

1213
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 2: They'll play certain songs and you'll have people watch commercials

1214
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: and see if they dream about it more and then

1215
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 2: buy that product more. Like that space is here, so

1216
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: if somebody's listening, like, that's a massive space, and I

1217
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: just think I would remind people that we're not completely

1218
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 2: shut off when we dream, we wake up to alarms

1219
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: and smoke, and that we should be careful about in

1220
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: that vulnerable, precious, remarkable, a unique state that somebody's not

1221
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: just taking marketing advantage of it. And I think that's

1222
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: where AI will extract data, figure out what's the right buzz,

1223
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 2: the right sound, and just to riff on this a

1224
01:04:58,040 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 2: little bit, like one hundred years ago, they were like,

1225
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 2: people are sleep and they put their hand in like

1226
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 2: a bucket of water, see if they had more dreams

1227
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 2: about water. In the modern version, they're going to be

1228
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 2: taking your data and trying to fine tune like the song,

1229
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 2: the scent and the picture to put, you know, to

1230
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: throw at you to try to get you to buy stuff.

1231
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 2: So I'm a bit like dystopian about that because I

1232
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 2: don't want you know I'm private, especially in my dream life.

1233
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely no, it's I mean, I feel like some

1234
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: of my favorite movies have been about dreams. You mentioned

1235
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: Inception even I mean this isn't about dreams, but still

1236
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 1: in that in that space of Vanilla Sky, Yeah, with

1237
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise and Cameron DearS. That movie, if you're not

1238
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: seeing it, it's probably one of my favorites. And just

1239
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: how that memory bank or some sort of like subconscious

1240
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: bank is created and held. And it's fascinating thinking about that.

1241
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: There's a few more things roll that I want to

1242
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: go over with you from the book, which I think

1243
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: are so interesting for people. I want to talk to

1244
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: you about. Before we get into lucid dreaming. I want

1245
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: to talk to you a bit about how dreams can

1246
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: predict the future. And I think a lot of people

1247
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously.

1248
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 1: Somewhere we feel that like I know people who have illnesses,

1249
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: or like, oh I manifested this, like I made this happen,

1250
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: or like I have a disease and oh my god,

1251
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: I saw this coming, or you know that kind of

1252
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: feeling warning dream Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels

1253
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: a bit worrying as well, because often when you have

1254
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: that warning, you know, constantly replaying and thinking about it

1255
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict

1256
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 1: the future, especially when it comes to health.

1257
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 2: In one specific way, dreams can absolutely predict the future

1258
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 2: of your health, and we'll get into that that's Parkinson's,

1259
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: but in general for cancer, for other diseases. It's hard

1260
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and

1261
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 2: then sort of reverse thought like I think I had

1262
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 2: a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm just

1263
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 2: totally open minded. But I can't grip the data on that.

1264
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 2: But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically

1265
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 2: you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been

1266
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 2: looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a

1267
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 2: certain anxiety you're having again symbolic. You might be struggling

1268
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 2: with something and then have a disease based dream. So

1269
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 2: as long as we remember that most of the time

1270
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There

1271
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patents

1272
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 2: are said like I had a dream, I felt the

1273
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 2: lump in these sort of things, I respect that, I

1274
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 2: respect their whole journey, So I want to put that

1275
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 2: out there. The one specific way that dreams can predict

1276
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 2: the future. I need to unpack this one for a

1277
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 2: little bit, because this was mind blowing when I when

1278
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 2: I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder,

1279
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 2: which I'm relabeling dream and act. My behavior. Uh yeah,

1280
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 2: my world, my world. The words are they confuse, you know,

1281
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 2: dream and act my behavior. Middle aged men fifties acting

1282
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 2: out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come

1283
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: in the bed partners maybe has an injury. Those men

1284
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 2: ninety four percent of the time. And that's essentially in medicine,

1285
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 2: it's universal. Fifteen years later will develop Parkinson's. I think

1286
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 2: you know. So that is the one example, and it's

1287
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 2: if it's the only example for every neuroscientists out there,

1288
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,520
Speaker 2: Every scientist out there hear me with this that the

1289
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 2: first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is

1290
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 2: a change in dreams fifteen years ago. I'll just leave

1291
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 2: it at that. For all the rigorous people out there saying, hey,

1292
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 2: they're talking about stuff like I'm questioning whether you know

1293
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: the science can really show this. Look up REM behavior

1294
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 2: disorder cap all caps RAM behavior disorder, which I call

1295
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 2: dream and acting behavior. It's in scientific American. This isn't

1296
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 2: like one paper I'm digging up, like this is thing.

1297
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: This is stuff that that's coming out. REM behavior disorder

1298
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 2: predicts Parkinson's fifteen years later. And what I would say

1299
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 2: to the researchers out there, is that an opportunity for

1300
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: us to start with medicine earlier. I mean, it just

1301
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 2: says so much. But outside of that one and all

1302
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 2: you need is one unicorn for unicorns to be real.

1303
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 2: I haven't found any evidence that dreams predict the future.

1304
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 2: I mean, they definitely don't give you lottery numbers and

1305
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 2: stuff like that, but at a more grounded level, they

1306
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 2: don't actually predict what's going to happen to you, but

1307
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 2: what happens to you maybe because of what the dream

1308
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 2: is symbolically mentioning you're going through a difficult time, or

1309
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 2: you lose your job. You have a dream about losing

1310
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 2: your job, So I can see where those connections would form.

1311
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 2: I just don't have any, so I'll leave it as

1312
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 2: a maybe.

1313
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: It's so interesting how again, it goes back to this

1314
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: idea of when you get a diagnosis or something happens,

1315
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: you then go back to finding that point Like it's

1316
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: almost like you've been dating someone and you knew they

1317
01:09:58,240 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: were wrong, and then when they break up with you,

1318
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: I knew it.

1319
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 2: You go and you replay it all.

1320
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you replaying it, like and then you now

1321
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 1: you see all the red flags do and again, there's

1322
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with it, but it's that feeling of I

1323
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: remember and I know, but we're not always good at

1324
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 1: trusting our gut in that moment, you know what I'm saying,

1325
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: Like there's there's not a feeling of it's almost like again,

1326
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: and I'm not discounting anyone's experience, but I find even

1327
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 1: I do it where you're living your life and then

1328
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: something happens and you go, I knew it. I knew it.

1329
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: There was a part of you that sensed it.

1330
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 2: I call that hunch and instinct. Yeah, and I think

1331
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 2: we we connect if I may, yeah, please in the

1332
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,600
Speaker 2: moment as we navigate uncertainty, and because we're not just

1333
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 2: reflexive creatures, right, there's this thing called counterfactual thinking, like

1334
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 2: I can run out if this happens, then that I

1335
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 2: can play scenarios out and you know what does that

1336
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: The imagination network, the same thing that's liberating and dreaming.

1337
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 2: We create a mental workspace what if this happens, What

1338
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: if this happens? What if this doesn't happen? As we

1339
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 2: navigate the uncertainty, So it's not just you know, pull

1340
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: back from a hot frying pan or you know, pull

1341
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 2: back from a scorching rock if you're a lizard, right,

1342
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 2: those are reflexes. We have the ability to choose. And

1343
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 2: I think when you look at what you're saying about

1344
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 2: hunch and instinct and how we kind of nuse something

1345
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 2: and we should have maybe paid more attention to it,

1346
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 2: I think that for me, that's in the rear view.

1347
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 2: When you're in the moment and things are imperfect, as

1348
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 2: they often are, I believe that you are trying to

1349
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 2: create the outcome out of that imperfect situation, and when

1350
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 2: it doesn't arise or it doesn't arrive for you, so

1351
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 2: we do look back and say, hey, you know, maybe

1352
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 2: we should have done things differently. That is the cost

1353
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 2: of the freedom of choice that we have right now

1354
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 2: what to do, whether to grab this glass or not.

1355
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 2: And just like heartache is the cost of exposing yourself

1356
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 2: to falling in love, you know, And I'm familiar with that,

1357
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 2: So I think I think people should look at that

1358
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 2: as like, that's that's what makes life exciting.

1359
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you see any connection between alcohol and dreams.

1360
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:04,719
Speaker 2: Well, it's a big question. So this is a notable

1361
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 2: thing that I left out of the book. I have

1362
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 2: patients waking up from anesthesia. I'm floating above disassociative states

1363
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 2: like psychedelic experiences, ambient dreams, fent no dreams, alcohol suppresses dreams.

1364
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 2: People who smoke weed, marijuana users in the morning, they

1365
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: don't remember their dreams. Well, I couldn't find it. It

1366
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 2: definitely affects dreaming. To me, that says two things. Dreams

1367
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 2: are coming from the brain. You take drugs and your

1368
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 2: dreams change. They're biological. And the second thing is I

1369
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 2: couldn't find a way to say antidepressants make this change

1370
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,879
Speaker 2: your dreams. You know, coke and meth makes this change.

1371
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 2: And alcohol and alcohol if I just couldn't find something

1372
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 2: to wrap it aroun. Yeah, And I tried because I

1373
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 2: was like, that's going to be one of the chapters,

1374
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 2: and I just I didn't find a clear link except

1375
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,679
Speaker 2: for one. Galantamine is this drug we give patients with dementia.

1376
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 2: It works on a seat of colin. It's one of

1377
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 2: the less famous neurotransferers. We have a lot, they do

1378
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 2: a lot. It's not dopamine does this. It's not that

1379
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 2: linear as we're seeing now and liberating people now. Is

1380
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 2: galantamine and so those people they take it and they're like,

1381
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I'm becoming aware. I'm dreaming while I'm dreaming.

1382
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 2: That's lucid dreaming. You double that dose. They have more

1383
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,759
Speaker 2: lucid dreaming. And the world of science that dose dependent

1384
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 2: escalation is as close as you get to you know,

1385
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 2: cause and effect. So drugs definitely affect the brain. I

1386
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 2: just couldn't put them into Knie categories because people are

1387
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 2: anti depressants at this type of dream. People are on

1388
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 2: to cope the next day they had a different type

1389
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:38,679
Speaker 2: of dream. So that is a mixed bag, and alcohol

1390
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 2: is part of that. It's you know, it's a chemical.

1391
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 1: Do you think we'll ever get closer to understanding the

1392
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,759
Speaker 1: links more deeply as the memory banks dream branks?

1393
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 2: I hope so. I hope so. And I think that's

1394
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 2: an interesting question. The things that I'm looking at are

1395
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 2: what we're available to me everywhere, from Aristotle a few

1396
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 2: thousand years ago to stuff happening now to questionnaires from

1397
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. It's, of course necessarily it's imperfect, but

1398
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 2: I think as people are more honest, and that's the

1399
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:09,719
Speaker 2: liberated to fill the dream banks in with this stuff,

1400
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 2: somebody after me is going to take that and say ooh,

1401
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: I think alcohol does this and antidepressants do this. I

1402
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 2: think it's I think it's quite possible. But just as like,

1403
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 2: just to let everybody know, I'm working with what's out

1404
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 2: there and trying to connect the dots between the gaps

1405
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 2: of like from you know, philosophy to brain science to YouTube,

1406
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 2: you know, ambient dreams. Like I'm really trying to bring

1407
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 2: it together from every corner that I could.

1408
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 1: You know, look at how much do we dream in

1409
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 1: events in reality versus completely fantasy based events, Like how

1410
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: much of our dreams are replaying like you were saying

1411
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 1: that the veterans, for example, they dream about the war

1412
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: it's like a real event that happened in their life there,

1413
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: So that's a flashback. Yeah it's a flashback.

1414
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 2: Yeah so but when they dream about it when they're

1415
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 2: getting divorced, that's a symbolic dream representing something.

1416
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: What's going to breakdown of dreams of flashbacks versus fantasy.

1417
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 2: I think PTSD flashbacks are clearly replay of a bad

1418
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 2: experience in your dreamscape, the imaginative component of dreams. When

1419
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 2: you look at these surveys, it's a complete mixed bag.

1420
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 2: But what I will tell you is that I'm trying

1421
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 2: to just add the information here to your question, which

1422
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 2: is a good one. But how much of our dream

1423
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:35,640
Speaker 2: life is a replay versus just completely cooked up by

1424
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 2: the imagination network? I get that that's a good question.

1425
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:44,759
Speaker 2: And what I would say is, in flashbacks, it's a replay.

1426
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: If your dream is falling, that's not a replay, but

1427
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,719
Speaker 2: indicative something. And then there's most stuff is in between.

1428
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 2: It's highly visual, highly creative, jumping from social situations to

1429
01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 2: visual situations. You know, you're on the top of a building,

1430
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 2: you're an awkward situation, you're finding with something. There are

1431
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 2: these jumps, a little bit movie like, but it's not

1432
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 2: a hallucination. And this is the best I because I

1433
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 2: wanted to be able to answer this question like two

1434
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 2: years ago when I was thinking of this, and this

1435
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 2: is with a gem that I found. When you hallucinate,

1436
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 2: just bear with me. It's a purple elephant in this room.

1437
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 2: The landscape is reality, the element is inserted in it.

1438
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:33,600
Speaker 2: In dreaming, the whole thing is imagined. And so I

1439
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 2: would say the entire process of dreaming leans heavily imaginative.

1440
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:39,680
Speaker 2: That's the best to answer I can.

1441
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good answer. Yeah, No, it's interesting to me

1442
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 1: because I yeah, I always wonder, like I'm like, we

1443
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 1: always do we have a dream in a space we've

1444
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:50,799
Speaker 1: been in and seen.

1445
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 2: In and even all of it, you think all of it.

1446
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean that's so you have memory of places you've

1447
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 2: been and then you can imagine, and dreaming has access

1448
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 2: to both that and if I may the dreaming memory,

1449
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 2: like when you go up, you get up to go

1450
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 2: to the bathroom, sometimes you can slip back into a dream,

1451
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 2: so it's not random. And so I always wonder, is

1452
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: there's like access to memory our dreaming mind can have

1453
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 2: that are waking mind does not have access to Like

1454
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 2: people with this is fascinating, like this a little bit

1455
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 2: heavier on the size part, Like people who have memory issues,

1456
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 2: like they've had a trauma and they can't remember if

1457
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 2: they played Tetris or a video game. They'll see pictures

1458
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 2: of it in their dreams but can't tell you about

1459
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 2: it when you ask them during the day, I said, no,

1460
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 2: I never played a Tetris game, but I had one

1461
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 2: in my dream. And they're basically playing Tetris is being

1462
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 2: played in front of them, So there's something going on

1463
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 2: where the dreaming mind has a memory system. I think

1464
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 2: I don't have evidence for this, but there are little

1465
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 2: dots like that, like slipping back into a dream, getting

1466
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 2: up to go to the bathroom. People with amnesia being

1467
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 2: able to feed their dreams. Can't identify like on a

1468
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:05,759
Speaker 2: map or you know, a dissection. But there's something unique

1469
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 2: going on with a dreaming memory and dreaming mind. And

1470
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 2: that's why it's so inspiring for me. Like you know, I,

1471
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 2: you know, I use drills and take off pieces of

1472
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 2: skull and I dissect with him. I'm like, I'm not

1473
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:19,920
Speaker 2: that guy, right. Most people would think, I think that's

1474
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,599
Speaker 2: why it's powerful, like brain surgeons talking about the dreaming mind,

1475
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 2: and but that's what it's done for me. My man

1476
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 2: is like fifty one years in ten thousand patients operate

1477
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:39,840
Speaker 2: in like ten countries, suns, you know, wild love, affair, heartbreak,

1478
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 2: all of it, intense emotions, relationship with my partner for

1479
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 2: thirty years, like all of it. And you start to

1480
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 2: think like I think I'm getting a sense, and then

1481
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 2: you then putting this book together, it's it's almost like

1482
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: a rebirth. There's too much of a statement, but like,

1483
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 2: oh wait a second, there's a dreaming mind memory system.

1484
01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 2: Wait a second, Parkinson's The first flare is a change

1485
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,720
Speaker 2: in dreaming pattern. So just when I thought, like, you know,

1486
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:08,440
Speaker 2: I think I'm figuring this out, you know, I'm excited

1487
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 2: to have the lens with which I approached the world reset.

1488
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 2: And that's what dreaming has done for me.

1489
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,880
Speaker 1: Let's talk about lucid dreaming. We've been talking about. We've

1490
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 1: been kind of like peppering it in the whole time.

1491
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 1: First of all, let's just define and a lot of

1492
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: the questions I ask are very simplified. And the reason

1493
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 1: for that is because I think a lot of these

1494
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:31,599
Speaker 1: terms ideas are out there and most people don't even know.

1495
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 1: And I think, as you're simplifying language from a very

1496
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 1: scientific point of view, my goal is to try and

1497
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 1: simplify topics that we all hear about, and you might

1498
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: even hear around a conversation and you're sitting there going,

1499
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 1: I don't even know what that means. I don't know

1500
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: if anyone knows what that means, but we're all pretending

1501
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 1: to know. So it's like, what is lucid dreaming? How

1502
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 1: common is it? And then how do we do it?

1503
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 2: So let's go do lucid dreaming. Here's the way I

1504
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 2: explained it to you first, a little bit of a

1505
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 2: story about it. When I was constructing this book, it's

1506
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 2: lucid dreaming. Oh no, I don't want to cover there

1507
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:02,720
Speaker 2: can't be any science for it. Two out of nine

1508
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 2: chapters aren't lucid. And so again that's it's refreshing for me.

1509
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:12,759
Speaker 2: And the most rigorous science on dreaming is about lucid dreaming.

1510
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 2: So we talked earlier about the waking brain and the

1511
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 2: dreaming brain. Now we know that there's a sleep entry

1512
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 2: and there's a sleep exit in the middle of dreaming.

1513
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 2: In the middle of the night, some people become aware, Hey,

1514
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 2: I'm actually dreaming, and they become aware of the dream.

1515
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 2: And somebody might say, well, why is that unusual? Well,

1516
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 2: most dreams are in the rear view. You wake up

1517
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 2: and you say, oh, whoa, that was a dream, because

1518
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:42,439
Speaker 2: but like I had a visual at a vibrant one

1519
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 2: last night, but I was and only when I woke

1520
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:47,559
Speaker 2: up I was like, Okay, that was only a dream.

1521
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,480
Speaker 2: But when the dream was happening, I was fully inhabiting

1522
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 2: the dream. That was the dream was happening in my

1523
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 2: mind right and at the neuronal electrochemical level. So sleep entry,

1524
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:04,759
Speaker 2: sleep exit. Lucid dreaming is the return of awareness allowing

1525
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 2: people to know that they are actually in a dream

1526
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:10,800
Speaker 2: while dreaming, Okay, not in the rear view like I

1527
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 2: had this morning. And so that's a big statement. And

1528
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 2: what I would say is there's proof for it. Lucid

1529
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 2: dreaming can be proven by this experiment that they did

1530
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 2: and have been doing. That's the thing about studies and

1531
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:29,599
Speaker 2: experiments for your listeners. If somebody breaks into something new

1532
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 2: and it's real, you'll see an explosion of data in

1533
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 2: the scientific literature for that. And in the seventies somebody said,

1534
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 2: wait a second, you're a lucid dreamer. You're telling me

1535
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 2: you can become aware while you're in a dream while

1536
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 2: the dream is happening. And so they did a couple

1537
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 2: of things. They trained the person that rapid eye movement,

1538
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,599
Speaker 2: which is like skittish eye movements when we sleep and dream.

1539
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 2: They said, if you're in a lucid dream and consciousness

1540
01:21:56,200 --> 01:22:00,120
Speaker 2: has returned, can can you communicate with me, like with

1541
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:03,559
Speaker 2: your eyeballs through like a Morse code? And people should

1542
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 2: look this up. They left, right, left, right. They train

1543
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 2: these eye pattern movements. At the same time, they put

1544
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 2: the electrodes on the surf of the scalp because a

1545
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 2: guy like me will be like, he's just woke up, right, Well,

1546
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,479
Speaker 2: I need to know more than that. And they prove

1547
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 2: by the electricity that the person is truly asleep, so

1548
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:26,200
Speaker 2: you can't fake being asleep across a glass. This person

1549
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 2: at a certain time in the middle of the night,

1550
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 2: proving they're asleep, starts to communicate with their eyeballs, and

1551
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,840
Speaker 2: it still shows you're asleep, communicating with the outside world

1552
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 2: when you're asleep. That's powerful. That's lucid dreaming. Am I

1553
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:41,639
Speaker 2: a lucid dreamer?

1554
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 1: No?

1555
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 2: Have I had one or two? Yes? Did people working

1556
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 2: on this book start two? Yes? Can it be induced? Yes?

1557
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 2: And so lucid dreaming is powerful because again it's a

1558
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 2: liminal state, right, It's a bit of awareness, it's a

1559
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 2: bit of waking consciousness that has bubbled up during dreaming consciousness.

1560
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 2: And so nothing is rigid sleep entry. You don't go

1561
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 2: from wake to sleep in a second. It's not a

1562
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 2: hard line. So there are all these overlapping, blurry states

1563
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 2: and lucid dreaming is that Two more points about that,

1564
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,639
Speaker 2: when you put those patients, not patients, participants into brain scanners.

1565
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 2: That executive network I've been talking about logic and stuff

1566
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 2: is dampened. They show more blood flow that area, not

1567
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:27,439
Speaker 2: as much as when you're awake, but the blood flow

1568
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 2: to the frontal cortext that does reason and logic and

1569
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 2: awareness is halfway. So you know exactly right. And so

1570
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:37,640
Speaker 2: if everybody's been a lucid dreamer and telling people of

1571
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 2: work and people are shaking you off like you're out

1572
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 2: of your head, tell them no, there's there's the left

1573
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 2: right eye movement proof. There's brain scan proof. Galantamine, that

1574
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:51,759
Speaker 2: drug that makes lucid dreamers have more or have people

1575
01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 2: start to lose ad dream There's a lot of scientific

1576
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 2: evidence for that. And the last thing is, so can

1577
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:00,760
Speaker 2: we learn to lucid dream? And that dream I had

1578
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 2: was a trippy one. I was in the pandemic and

1579
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:06,479
Speaker 2: I was teaching the boys to say, we got this boat,

1580
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 2: I just like we had. I had to get them outdoors.

1581
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 2: You can't have three dogs and puppies in the house

1582
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 2: and in a pandemic. And I thought, this is luxury

1583
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 2: I have. We're by the water here in California. It

1584
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 2: was like I'm turning the helm hard, but I'm going

1585
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 2: horizontal like on a giant like river pouring off in

1586
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 2: a waterfall. And it was just like I'm trying so

1587
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:28,640
Speaker 2: hard just to stand still, and you know, I just

1588
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 2: remember the whole thing like this my right arm. And

1589
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 2: this was during the construction of this book, and I

1590
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 2: thought to myself, that's interesting. It's very visual. I know

1591
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 2: I'm in a dream. I mean, those are unique experiences

1592
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 2: for me. Again, as a brain surgeon, they usually would

1593
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:47,080
Speaker 2: not even explore these areas. But when I see the

1594
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,760
Speaker 2: brain scan showing you're halfway between sleep and wake, when

1595
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 2: I see that drugs bringing loose to dreaming, I love

1596
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:55,600
Speaker 2: pulling those two worlds together for people, you know. So

1597
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 2: I'm fascinating now with fascinating now with lucid dreaming. And

1598
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:01,599
Speaker 2: I think people who about a third of people do it,

1599
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 2: like when you, thirty to forty percent report it sometimes

1600
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:08,920
Speaker 2: more sometimes less athletes tend to have it, more gamers

1601
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:11,559
Speaker 2: tend to have more visuospatial creative people tend to have

1602
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 2: more lucid dreams. And there are some techniques that are

1603
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:14,679
Speaker 2: out there.

1604
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you if someone's a beginner, Yeah,

1605
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 1: and they want to try it. After watching this, they're

1606
01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:20,519
Speaker 1: going to get the book and they're like, all right,

1607
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 1: I want to play with it. What are the first

1608
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 1: three things someone should do?

1609
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 2: First thing they should do is look up mild lucid

1610
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 2: dreaming mild techniques. So there's a lot of techniques written

1611
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 2: about since antiquity, people cultivated spirituality with that this massive

1612
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:39,120
Speaker 2: topic faith. Yeah, so mild technique and what it is

1613
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 2: is waking up a bit earlier than you should you

1614
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:43,479
Speaker 2: plan to or should, and then trying to hold onto

1615
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:46,960
Speaker 2: consciousness and waking life as you drift into sort of

1616
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:50,439
Speaker 2: back into sleep. The technique is described in the book

1617
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 2: and you can look it up online. But I want

1618
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:55,840
Speaker 2: people to know why I mentioned that technique after four

1619
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 2: or five is because there is a study when they

1620
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 2: took a bunch of people and they said, okay, we're

1621
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 2: going to teach you the left right left right morse code.

1622
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,320
Speaker 2: You practice this technique, then we're going to get you

1623
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,599
Speaker 2: in the sleep lab. It's not my experiment or it's

1624
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,680
Speaker 2: not my investigation. We're going to get you in the

1625
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 2: sleep lab. Okay, now, prove to us with your eyeball

1626
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:18,000
Speaker 2: movements that you're actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was

1627
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:20,599
Speaker 2: a survey like, yeah, I did it, and I'm locid

1628
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 2: dreaming more. I believe people, but you know, I like

1629
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,599
Speaker 2: that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is

1630
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 2: proven with the left right left right Morse code technique

1631
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,520
Speaker 2: that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain

1632
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:36,120
Speaker 2: electricity and you are using eye patterns so much so

1633
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 2: this is a banger. They started doing a little bit

1634
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 2: of math two plus two and they have code, and

1635
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 2: somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris,

1636
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:46,240
Speaker 2: and I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming

1637
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 2: brain doesn't do bath. I said, yeah, but I also

1638
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:50,600
Speaker 2: showed you the brain scans that show a bit of

1639
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,880
Speaker 2: awareness and has come back, as does the bit of

1640
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 2: ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces

1641
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 2: come in consistently.

1642
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:02,080
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. Brother. From audio, You've done, you know, tons

1643
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 1: of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel

1644
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 1: one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from

1645
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 1: this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams

1646
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 1: are the wrong questions. We're asking, like what does this mean?

1647
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 1: Is this? You know? Is this real? Like? You know,

1648
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 1: what should I do with this? What would you say

1649
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 1: are the best questions we should ask when we've woken

1650
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:29,559
Speaker 1: up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point

1651
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 1: us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're

1652
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 1: wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.

1653
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 2: So I would say, when I'll tell you my approach again.

1654
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 2: That's that's a massive topic you've you've just asked of me.

1655
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:48,560
Speaker 2: Is one. There are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety,

1656
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 2: showing up late, longoing lone doesn't go off showing up

1657
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:56,439
Speaker 2: naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking.

1658
01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 2: So some don't require you to spend much time on them.

1659
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:04,439
Speaker 2: Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares, and erotic dreams.

1660
01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 2: We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, their

1661
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,599
Speaker 2: dreams are just static. You know, let's not hold dreaming

1662
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 2: thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's

1663
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff we do with them today we

1664
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 2: don't even hold on to right. Similarly, the fourth our

1665
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 2: genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening, Massive

1666
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 2: lifetime events are happening, and you're dreaming. That's consistent the

1667
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 2: ones that I would say to people are to focus

1668
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 2: on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional and

1669
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 2: they linger into the next day. You can try to

1670
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 2: cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a

1671
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:42,639
Speaker 2: slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly.

1672
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 2: But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.

1673
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:53,520
Speaker 2: Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain called limbic structures.

1674
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 2: The brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat sort

1675
01:28:57,439 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 2: of back there. That's instinct. It makes you take a

1676
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,400
Speaker 2: breath when you're underwater. Above it developed the emotional brain

1677
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 2: much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition,

1678
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 2: they have instinct. That's called the limbic system. And people

1679
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 2: can look this up and there's there's circuits in there

1680
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:17,600
Speaker 2: like the Pepe circuit, and it's a fascinating it's a

1681
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,360
Speaker 2: fascinating part of the brain. And then on top of

1682
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,880
Speaker 2: it is a giant frontal cortex. The frontal cortex has

1683
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 2: is integrated with all those they're all intertwined. There is

1684
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 2: no dopamine. There's a reward pathway that jumps from the

1685
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,679
Speaker 2: reptilian to the emotional to but to get things done,

1686
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 2: our advantage and the thing that blossomed our foreheads forward

1687
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:42,280
Speaker 2: was logic and reason, the executive and the CEO. So

1688
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 2: I believe that limbic system, those emotional systems are dampened

1689
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 2: during the day for productivity, a conventional productivity, not creativity.

1690
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,080
Speaker 2: And what's happening with your dreams is the roles are

1691
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:57,960
Speaker 2: reversed and the emotional systems can achieve a top speed

1692
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 2: that you're waking life can't. So if you have emotions, thoughts,

1693
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 2: and experiences from a hyper emotional, hyper liberate brain, that's

1694
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 2: the one to reflect on within your life. And I've

1695
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:13,600
Speaker 2: given a few specific examples and the process of reflecting

1696
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 2: what it means, it's individual to you. If you are

1697
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 2: having nightmares and you don't have them and you think

1698
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:24,840
Speaker 2: your day, wait, my day's fine, I'm having a lot

1699
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 2: of nightmares when I don't, let that be a warning

1700
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:32,720
Speaker 2: sign to reflect more upon yourself. If you're struggling with

1701
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:36,320
Speaker 2: a relationship and you have dreams of falling or hyper

1702
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: emotional dreams of being chased, you know that's your relationship

1703
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 2: symbolically finding itself into your dreams. If you are at

1704
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 2: the end of life and you're having a lot of

1705
01:30:51,439 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 2: dreams about reconciliation. Those are that's the dreaming process coming

1706
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 2: to your rescue. The end of life dreams serve a

1707
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:05,200
Speaker 2: different fundunction. I think they bring a solace And there's

1708
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:08,519
Speaker 2: evidence coming out now that even when our heart is stopped,

1709
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:12,439
Speaker 2: the last thing a brain does is haves one massive

1710
01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 2: dream in the last minute or two, potentially experiencing the

1711
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 2: universal feature of near death experiences. So know that a

1712
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 2: hyper emotional dream comes from a hyper emotional state that's

1713
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:28,639
Speaker 2: individual to your brain and that no one can give you,

1714
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 2: no one has access to. And maybe it's your responsibility

1715
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 2: to turn over that feeling in those thoughts and it

1716
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 2: just to pause for a minute and take all the

1717
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 2: information coming at you, take all the stuff you've gone through,

1718
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 2: and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey,

1719
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 2: what was that solar flare from my mind? And if

1720
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 2: it's useful to you, great, If the process helps you

1721
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 2: remember those more, great, But if you just have that

1722
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 2: five to ten minutes during your morning where you just

1723
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,639
Speaker 2: remember that you were not resting the night before, there

1724
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 2: was something wild and vibrant going on and you got

1725
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:05,599
Speaker 2: a glimpse of it. What it means is up to you,

1726
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:07,320
Speaker 2: but definitely don't neglect.

1727
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 1: It well, said doctor Raoul John Deel. The book is

1728
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:13,320
Speaker 1: called This Is Why You Dream. If you don't have

1729
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove

1730
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:19,599
Speaker 1: into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's

1731
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 1: so much more inside this book that I believe you're

1732
01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:23,719
Speaker 1: going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better,

1733
01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:27,600
Speaker 1: dream bigger, and dream more beautifully as well, which is

1734
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:29,840
Speaker 1: what I wish for each and every one of you, rowld.

1735
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 1: Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you

1736
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 1: want to share that is on your heart and mind

1737
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:36,440
Speaker 1: intuitively that you believe is important for our community.

1738
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:40,479
Speaker 2: I think there's too much judgment going on in the

1739
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 2: ways that people approach life. And some people think they've

1740
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:47,559
Speaker 2: got it all figured out, and some people on the

1741
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 2: other end saying I've got nothing figured out. And I

1742
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:53,000
Speaker 2: got to tell you, listens, I've been into that entire range,

1743
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 2: and I would say a couple of things. I would say,

1744
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,839
Speaker 2: I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius

1745
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 2: built in that gives us resilience and resilience. I want

1746
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:07,120
Speaker 2: to leave people with a brand new definition of it,

1747
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:13,520
Speaker 2: a psychological definition that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience.

1748
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 2: Systemic resilience is is what you bring to the fight,

1749
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:23,760
Speaker 2: and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you.

1750
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 2: So wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain

1751
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 2: as your ally. And I think to me, that gives

1752
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:35,160
Speaker 2: me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me,

1753
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 2: protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's not

1754
01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:41,960
Speaker 2: one side. That's that's rule speaking emotionally. Right on the

1755
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 2: other side, when you sit here and you say that's

1756
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 2: brain surgeon is trying to rock this stuff about the

1757
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 2: brain and mind and all that. I'll leave you with

1758
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 2: something I did not know in neuroscience. Right I got

1759
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:56,839
Speaker 2: a lab, a PhD in neuroscience or a brain surgeon.

1760
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:59,000
Speaker 2: You start to think you're like the expert at it.

1761
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 2: But there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that

1762
01:34:04,439 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 2: I was surprised, like, how did I not know that?

1763
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 2: Because it would have changed all the ways I would

1764
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 2: have acted through my life. I would have been more open,

1765
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:18,679
Speaker 2: more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences because

1766
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:20,800
Speaker 2: it doesn't all have to make sense even to the

1767
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,479
Speaker 2: uber expert. So I leave people with something to search

1768
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:29,640
Speaker 2: online called paradoxical kinesis p r A d o xicl canisis.

1769
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,760
Speaker 2: It's called I can't explain why you move that way.

1770
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 2: That's my street translation for that medical term. But what

1771
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 2: it is is those same patients that have dream and

1772
01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 2: act and behavior the care act out their dreams and

1773
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 2: later on their Parkinson's develops and their brains with her.

1774
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 2: The strangest thing is when the parkinson sets in and

1775
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:53,080
Speaker 2: their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid. When

1776
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:56,240
Speaker 2: they act out their dreams, their voices are big and

1777
01:34:56,240 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 2: their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind, somehow can access

1778
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 2: the body in a better way, in a more fluid way,

1779
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 2: in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.

1780
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,880
Speaker 2: And that that's what I like to leave people with, Like,

1781
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:16,679
Speaker 2: I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are too.

1782
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: So, Raoul, you talk about how naps lasting sixty to

1783
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 1: ninety minutes can boost learning and create a problem solving

1784
01:35:22,479 --> 01:35:26,200
Speaker 1: by forty percent. Why is this And when's the best

1785
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:27,080
Speaker 1: time to take a nap?

1786
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:29,840
Speaker 2: The napping thing is big these days, and people are

1787
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 2: finding it's not work harder, work longer, and all that,

1788
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:34,719
Speaker 2: but try to work with the different states of mind

1789
01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 2: and brain that you have and napping if you get

1790
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:39,680
Speaker 2: to sixty or ninety minutes. People have done surveys and

1791
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:42,799
Speaker 2: ask people to nap with puzzles and they find entering

1792
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:46,800
Speaker 2: the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as

1793
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:50,360
Speaker 2: we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they

1794
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 2: solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And

1795
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:57,960
Speaker 2: the big point there for people is there's a utility

1796
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 2: to napping. You're not lazy because you app and if

1797
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:02,960
Speaker 2: you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt

1798
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,360
Speaker 2: your sleep later on in the day, I think that's

1799
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 2: another you know, in the world of hacks, I think

1800
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 2: that's the hack that we've all got built in.

1801
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:12,639
Speaker 1: Can you dream in that sixty to ninety minutes? Yeah,

1802
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 1: And have those dreams shown to be any different?

1803
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 2: I can't answer that. There isn't dat on. Have those

1804
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:20,439
Speaker 2: shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would

1805
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:24,479
Speaker 2: say one condition is narcolepsi, where people fall asleep suddenly

1806
01:36:24,479 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 2: and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall

1807
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 2: asleep and then they wake up and they enter a

1808
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 2: dream state. But that's a whole space. That's opening up

1809
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:34,400
Speaker 2: the utility of naps, and it doesn't have to be

1810
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:37,320
Speaker 2: every day, it doesn't have to be rigid, and if

1811
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:39,760
Speaker 2: you have a big event or a big project coming up,

1812
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:42,760
Speaker 2: I think personally, what I've tried is just shutting your

1813
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 2: eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental work space,

1814
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:50,799
Speaker 2: allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards

1815
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:53,640
Speaker 2: in your thoughts. Whether you actually fall technically sleep or not,

1816
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:55,600
Speaker 2: to me, that's been advantageous.

1817
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,040
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I agree with that, and I know many

1818
01:36:58,080 --> 01:37:00,000
Speaker 1: athletes who do that as well before a big game,

1819
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 1: before a big performance. You're not necessarily falling asleep, but

1820
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:07,400
Speaker 1: I like it. You're an off mode definitely. And also,

1821
01:37:07,520 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 1: last question I want to ask you was the question

1822
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 1: that Helena mentioned. So a lot of people when they're

1823
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:17,559
Speaker 1: in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does

1824
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:19,800
Speaker 1: that exist? Why do people have that experience?

1825
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:21,639
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have an answer for that,

1826
01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:24,240
Speaker 2: and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any

1827
01:37:24,280 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 2: signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep, it is

1828
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 2: a time where activation of the movement centers is pronounced

1829
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:38,120
Speaker 2: and falling is actually a movement it's not you think, oh,

1830
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:40,280
Speaker 2: running is a movement, falling something that happens to you know,

1831
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 2: But the activation of the brain when people fall it

1832
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 2: has to do with the motor strip as well motor sensory,

1833
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:49,000
Speaker 2: so during that transition there may be a link there.

1834
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's even interesting language like falling asleep, like I

1835
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:54,840
Speaker 1: guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of

1836
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 1: falling is just I don't know.

1837
01:37:58,040 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 2: I find entering.

1838
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:01,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look

1839
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:03,800
Speaker 1: at like falling to sleep, like that doesn't make any

1840
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:07,759
Speaker 1: sense to me beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't

1841
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:11,400
Speaker 1: necessarily create a RESTful, peaceful feeling.

1842
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:13,840
Speaker 2: Take that back two thousand years and we memorize it

1843
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 2: by heart, and that's when we thought the heart was

1844
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 2: a center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind.

1845
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:23,480
Speaker 2: I mean the power of words and people finding handwriting

1846
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 2: is it activates more part of the brains than typing.

1847
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:32,840
Speaker 2: And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning,

1848
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:36,679
Speaker 2: there's something there. I'll explore that hopefully in the years ahead.

1849
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think sleep entery and exits brilliant language though.

1850
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,559
Speaker 1: That has really stayed with me, and it's making me

1851
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments

1852
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:50,719
Speaker 1: just before waking up, especially those two to twelve minutes

1853
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 1: that you said before you go to bed and after

1854
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:55,719
Speaker 1: you wake up, because evening and morning routines make sense,

1855
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 1: but there's an even more special time there that could

1856
01:38:59,360 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 1: be managed.

1857
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that morning time for me sleep exit is definitely

1858
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 2: something I put to you. So a lot of the

1859
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 2: ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping

1860
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:09,080
Speaker 2: through a bunch of papers, I'm like, what does this mean?

1861
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:10,720
Speaker 2: What does this mean? And then it would be in

1862
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:13,800
Speaker 2: the morning, I'd oh, maybe that, maybe that. Yeah, not

1863
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 2: a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.

1864
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing roll. So we end every episode of On

1865
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:22,519
Speaker 1: Purpose with a fast five final five. These are questions

1866
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:24,280
Speaker 1: that have to be answered in one word to one

1867
01:39:24,320 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: sentence maximum, and these are your final five. So the

1868
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:32,080
Speaker 1: first question is what is the best dreaming advice you've

1869
01:39:32,080 --> 01:39:33,160
Speaker 1: ever heard or received?

1870
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 2: Or try to remember them more?

1871
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:37,920
Speaker 1: Okay, second question, what is the worst dreaming advice you've

1872
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:38,920
Speaker 1: ever heard or received?

1873
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:40,840
Speaker 2: Dreams are meaningless?

1874
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 1: Question Number three a dream you wish you'd have more often?

1875
01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:45,760
Speaker 2: Falling in love? The first time.

1876
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:51,439
Speaker 1: Question number four, A dream that you wish people would

1877
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 1: have more often?

1878
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 2: Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.

1879
01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have.

1880
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:03,559
Speaker 2: I don't know, but those are the ones that some

1881
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:05,600
Speaker 2: people report toward the end of life. And I just

1882
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 2: wonder if we had that more in the middle of

1883
01:40:07,320 --> 01:40:10,760
Speaker 2: our life, we'd be you know, we would have we

1884
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 2: would have less regrets, and we'd be less you know,

1885
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 2: encumbered by the fuss of the day.

1886
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:18,920
Speaker 1: Why do you why is there any study to show

1887
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 1: why people having it later on in life? No?

1888
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:23,880
Speaker 2: Wow, that's yeah, And I can tell you that from

1889
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:28,080
Speaker 2: my own experience with cancer patients. Yeah, they're called genre dreams,

1890
01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 2: end of life dreams. And again, our last act might

1891
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:33,639
Speaker 2: be a massive dream, and it tends to be positive,

1892
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:36,240
Speaker 2: not always for near death experiences. To me, I call

1893
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:38,719
Speaker 2: that a dreaming coming to our rescue.

1894
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, could you imagine that You're so right? If you

1895
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 1: could have that earlier on.

1896
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:45,240
Speaker 2: Like all that beat, all that fuss. You know, it's

1897
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:48,000
Speaker 2: a great answer, you know, I wish I could to

1898
01:40:48,080 --> 01:40:48,919
Speaker 2: let it go earlier.

1899
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, fifth and final question. We asked this to every

1900
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 1: guest who's ever been on the show. If you could

1901
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 1: create one law that everyone in the world had to follow,

1902
01:40:57,280 --> 01:40:58,560
Speaker 1: what would it be?

1903
01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 2: Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine

1904
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Speaker 2: yourself in that person's shoes.

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Speaker 1: Great answer, Doctor L. Johndale. The book is called This

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Speaker 1: Is Why You Dream. Thank you so much for joining

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01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:12,639
Speaker 1: us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow

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01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:17,080
Speaker 1: doctor Raoul Johndale on Instagram across social media. Grab a

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01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:19,080
Speaker 1: copy of the book. We'll put the link in the

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Speaker 1: comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for

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Speaker 1: your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've

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Speaker 1: completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly through

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Speaker 1: your book in this interview, I think I knew nothing

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01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:36,440
Speaker 1: about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas

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01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:39,639
Speaker 1: and maybe some limited beliefs, and speaking to you today

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01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: has just opened up a whole new area of growth

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Speaker 1: for me that I don't even think I was thinking about.

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Speaker 1: So I love the idea that I'm walking away with

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Speaker 1: some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from

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Speaker 1: tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey,

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Speaker 1: and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you

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01:41:57,000 --> 01:41:58,560
Speaker 1: read the book. I hope you're going to go on

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Speaker 1: a dream journey with me too. Love to see you

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01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 1: tag me and doctor roll in some of the experiments,

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Speaker 1: some of the tests that you're carrying out in your

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Speaker 1: own life. Thank you so much, pleasure, Thank you so

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01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:13,160
Speaker 1: much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it,

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01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:17,320
Speaker 1: you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort

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01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking

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01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:23,760
Speaker 1: your hidden potential. If you know you want to be

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01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 1: more and achieve more this year, go check it out

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,

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Speaker 2: and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.

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Speaker 2: There's no sense of meaning and purpose. You sort of

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Speaker 2: expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it

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Speaker 2: didn't happen.