1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Jamie here reminding you that if 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: you enjoy this show, please subscribe to it, leave a 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: couple of stars, review whatever you want. It all helps 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: and if you have episode requests for sixteenth Minute, check 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: out our Reddit board at our slash sixteenth minute. 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: Enjoy the episode, stay. 7 00:00:42,159 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: Six Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we 8 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: talk to the Internet's characters of the day see how 9 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: their moment affected them and what it says about the 10 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: Internet and US and today Halloween itself. We're revisiting the 11 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: saga of the tumblr bone Witch. If you haven't listened 12 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: to part one of this series, you will be very confused, 13 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: because this is a rich story, one with internet drama, 14 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: police state intrigue, and a witch who doesn't understand why 15 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: grave robbing may in fact be illegal where they are 16 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: robbing a grave aka bone Gazi twenty fifteen, and as 17 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: you now know, it is a wild story, one that 18 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: has quite a to say about how laws around human 19 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: remains don't always really square with the bone crimes of today. 20 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: To learn more about the history of these laws and 21 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: why Ender Darling was destined to be uniquely fucked by 22 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: the law, I spoke to Professor Tanya Marsh. 23 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 3: I'm Tanya Marsh, the Senior Associate Dean for Academic Affairs 24 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: and a professor of Law at wake Forest University School 25 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: of Law. My scholarship and my teaching centers around the status, treatment, 26 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: and disposition of human remains. 27 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: How did you first get involved or drawn to this 28 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: area of law? 29 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 4: So? 30 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: I was a commercial real estate lawyer for ten years 31 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 3: before I started teaching full time, and I thought I 32 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: knew a lot about real estate and property law, and 33 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 3: then I started reading some cases. So I was looking 34 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: around for something to write about and started reading cemetery 35 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: law cases and I realized that here was I mean, 36 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: cemeteries are just a land use right, it's just property, 37 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 3: it's just real estate. But there's this super specific set 38 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: of rules and laws that surround cemeteries that I had 39 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 3: no idea about. And then I realized nobody really was 40 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: working in this space except for people who are like 41 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: in the industry, but nobody in academia was like looking 42 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: into these laws. And in fact, the last book describing 43 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: what the laws were was published in nineteen fifty. It is, 44 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 3: as you say, super necessary because you know, spoiler er, 45 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 3: everybody's going to die right, and our bodies have to 46 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: go somewhere, and everybody who died previously their bodies are somewhere, 47 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: and so we need to deal with that, and you 48 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: need to have legal structures that deal with that. So 49 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: it's been a really interesting area to study. 50 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: I kept like trying to characterize it to people as 51 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: like an area of lot that you don't know is 52 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: the most important thing in the world. 53 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: Until it affects you absolutely. 54 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: As you're going into this field for the layman, what 55 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: do you wish the average person knew more about your 56 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: field to study? 57 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: Wow, well, let me turn your question around a little bit. 58 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: Here here's the big problem with this area. The big 59 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: problem with this area is in the American culture, we 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: don't like to talk about death, and so as you say, 61 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 3: it's like a really important area of law and that 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: you ignore until you need it, the fundamental, like reoccurring 63 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: problem is nobody engages with what are my options? What 64 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: does the law forbid me from doing? What does the 65 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: law permit me from doing? Until it personally affects us? 66 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 3: And at the point it personally affects us, where it's 67 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: sort of a heightened state of grief and stress. Anyway, 68 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: and then once we get past those decisions, which are 69 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: being made at a time of stress, we don't want 70 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 3: to think about it anymore, right, We want to put 71 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: it off to people. And so as a result, what 72 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: we've got is a legal system that was developed in 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: an ad hoc way over the years when there were 74 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 3: crises that caused us to either have a court case 75 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: to deal with the problem, or the legislature was getting 76 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 3: a lot of public pressure to deal with a particular problem. 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: So we have this like super scattershot approach. And what's 78 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 3: frustrating to me is we have really predictable problems that 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: come up over and over and over again, but the 80 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: law hasn't thought about any of this in a systemic way. Right, 81 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: So as a culture, we need to get past this 82 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: whole death phobic thing, because we really do need to 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 3: all get on the same page about what are our 84 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: values and does the law protect and express those values. 85 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: For the most part, I think most people in the 86 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: United States are on the same page about what we 87 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: don't want to have happen. And I think people are 88 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: constantly surprised when it turns out the law doesn't expressly say. 89 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: That a common decency thing is not actually formally against 90 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 1: the law. 91 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 3: Correct. For an example, you know, a case that has 92 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: come up within the last year is a Harvard Morgue case. 93 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: Right there, remains we're donated to Harvard Medical School. Allegedly, 94 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: the head of the morgue, rather than sending them to 95 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: be cremated as he was supposed to do, instead allowed 96 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: collectors and folks to come in and take body parts, 97 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 3: or he removed body parts and allegedly sold them to 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: other people. I keep saying allegedly because he hasn't been 99 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: convicted yet. From the public stories of what we've heard, 100 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: there's a lot of evidence that certain types of things 101 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: went on. But then the question is that illegal, right, 102 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 3: Because it can't just be that we all think that's wrong. 103 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 3: It has to be that there is a law that 104 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: says describes behavior and says this is illegal, and here's 105 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: the punishment for it. And so I think what people 106 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: have been constantly surprised about. In that particular case, the 107 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: folks in that case were charged under federal law. Does 108 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: the federal law actually expressly make that behavior illegal? That's debatable, 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: But there are only a handful of states that say 110 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: that selling human remains is against the law, which is 111 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: very surprising to many people that I talk to that 112 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: that is not against the law. Clearly in every state. 113 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: The laws around human remains from state to state seem 114 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: to vary pretty wildly in their specificity. 115 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: Correct, there's very little federal law about human remains. There's 116 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: almost none about the newly dead. There's some price disclosure 117 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: requirements that the Federal Trade Commission has, the federal government 118 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: owns some cemeteries, especially for veterans, but beyond those things, 119 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: federal law has very little say about human remains. So 120 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: then it's all state law. And you know, some of 121 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: these state laws have been around for hundreds of years, 122 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: and some of them are fairly new. But again because 123 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 3: the way that governments have created these laws is in 124 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: this hugely scattershot approach. It's not like anybody sat down 125 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 3: and said, Okay, here's what we think about funerals and 126 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: human remains, and how long are we going to protect them, 127 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: and under what circumstances are we going to protect et cetera, 128 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: And let's create a system that's like cohesive and makes 129 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: internally coherent, right, And instead you have this, Okay, Massachusetts 130 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: in the eighteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds probably thought about 131 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: these issues very differently than New Mexico and the nineteen hundreds, right, 132 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: because of the people who are there and the cultural 133 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 3: background and the people making the rules, et cetera. So, 134 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: because of that kind of like historical diversity in terms 135 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: of when states made rules and also the people who 136 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 3: were in those places at the time the rules were 137 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 3: being made, you get a lot of differences from state 138 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: to state. 139 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: Have you encountered examples of American laws being in conflict 140 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: with other cultures? 141 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely. This is the part of the law when 142 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: people are sort of newly dead. 143 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: Right. 144 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: Is the way the law is structured generally in the 145 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: States says within X number of days after death, you 146 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: people surrounding the dead body have to do particular things, right, 147 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: Maybe you have to report the death to the government, 148 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 3: you have to get a death certificate, things like that. 149 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 3: In some states it's pretty clear you have to go 150 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: hire a funeral director. In most states, families can act 151 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: or religious organizations can act as a funeral director on 152 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: sort of a nonprofit basis, But there has to be 153 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: some kind of final disposition within a certain period of time. 154 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: And then what that final disposition is is also dictated 155 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: by statute. So until about ten years ago, I would 156 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: have told you your only options are cremation, burial into mintnamausoleum, 157 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 3: or donation to science. In the past ten years, we've 158 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 3: had alkaline hydrolysis, which is basically dissolving people, and then 159 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 3: natural organic reduction, which is composting people. Those two methods 160 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 3: of disposition have been increasingly legalized in the States, still 161 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: state to state, but there are a lot of other 162 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 3: practices that are done around the world that aren't on 163 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 3: that list, right because when we started, when America started, 164 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 3: the only was burial. That was the only option because 165 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: that was the only option that the Protestant Christians who 166 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: wrote the laws would entertain. It took one hundred years 167 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: to get cremation legalized, but cremation is widely practiced in 168 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: other areas of the world. There's just a bunch of 169 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 3: death rituals and methods of disposition that are expressly not 170 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 3: legal in the United States, and so I think that 171 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: creates some problems in an increasingly diverse society. 172 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: And I think it's fascinating, just like hearing how much 173 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: of the existing law is sort of connected to religion 174 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: and commerce. 175 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: It sounds like, yeah, I mean it started out I'd 176 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: say at the beginning of American history, death was the 177 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: province of families and religious organizations. And this is consistent 178 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: with a lot of kind of trends in society. 179 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: Right. 180 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: We used to grow our own food. Now we're increasingly 181 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: divorced from that, and we have to go to the 182 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: grocery store. 183 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 4: Right. 184 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: People used to die at Homeeople die in hospitals or 185 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: nursing homes. We used to take care of our debt 186 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: at home. Now funeral homes handle that for us. So, 187 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: I mean it's kind of part and parcel of like 188 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 3: an industrialized society that we've taken a lot of these 189 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 3: sort of fundamental processes out of the home and commercialize 190 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: that activity. But then there's also a swing back, right, Okay, 191 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 3: I don't like going to grow strong and go a 192 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 3: farmer's market. I've got more of a direct connection with 193 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: my food. I don't want my loved one to die 194 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: in the hospital. I want them to come home and 195 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: be in hospice care before they die. I don't want 196 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 3: a funeral home to handle all these things. I want 197 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 3: to do a home funeral. So there's there's sort of 198 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: a move towards I call it the wall martizing of America, 199 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: and then like a swing back to sort of more 200 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: authentic practices. 201 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to kick it to Louisiana. Now, were you 202 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: familiar with the bone Gazi story? 203 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I had heard of it. I had heard of it. 204 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: Okay, do you call what you made of the story 205 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: at the time. 206 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 3: So I am never surprised because I probably hear about 207 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: more of these stories than most people do, because whenever 208 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: something like this happens, like all my friends email me 209 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: or text me and say, have you heard about the latest? 210 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: So I wasn't super surprised. I yeah, also super illegal. 211 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: It feels ridiculous to ask, But since I have you, 212 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to, yeah, why is this illegal? 213 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 3: Well, this activity took place in Louisiana. You know, I 214 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: teach the law, so I always tell my students I'm 215 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 3: going to tell you what the law is, and I'm 216 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: not going to tell you what the law is in 217 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 3: Louisiana because Louisiana is always so different. Because yeah, in 218 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 3: terms of the way the law is structured, because the 219 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: United States is a common law country except for Louisiana, 220 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: which has a lot of echoes of civil law because 221 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 3: of the French history, So there are definitely some things 222 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: that are unusual. But Louisiana also takes the dead very seriously, 223 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: so there are a lot of laws that are very 224 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 3: specific in Louisiana that do not exist in many other states. 225 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: In general, it is illegal to disturb graves, so if 226 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 3: a body has been placed in the ground or in 227 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: a mausoleum, almost every state has a criminal statute that 228 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: says you cannot disturb that grave right now. The exact 229 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: wording of those rules differs from place to place, but 230 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: Louisiana's says it's unlawful to knowingly disturb an unmarked burial 231 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: site or any human skeletal remains. So even if you 232 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 3: didn't dig, even if you just picked up human skeletal 233 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 3: remains out of a cemetery or from the burial site, 234 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: that's expressly legal in Louisiana. In Louisiana, it's unlawful to 235 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 3: knowingly buy, sell, barter, exchange, give, receive, possessed, display, discard, 236 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 3: or destroy human skeletal remains. They're like, we mean it. 237 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: It sounds like there may be wasn't a worse to 238 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: have done this? 239 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: In Yes, that I would agree with that. 240 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: Were you surprised about the online reaction to this and 241 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: the way that we sort of interact with death and 242 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: specifically with human remains in online discussion, I. 243 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: Mean no, because I think you see echoes of this 244 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: same kind of disagreements in the Harvard More case, right, 245 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 3: and and then John's Bones was another thing. Every once 246 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 3: in a while, these things sort of pop up. There's 247 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: definitely folks who don't have a problem with this. I 248 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: think that they're in the small minority. They exist, and 249 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: they're very active online. So I'm you know, I'm not 250 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: surprised that there's some people who who think that that 251 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 3: it's okay to use the dead in whatever way sort 252 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: of the living want to do it. But what I 253 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: thought was interesting about this particular case was sort of 254 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 3: the layers and the waves right of reaction because the 255 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: initial right, there's no shaming in this group, and then 256 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: talking about what cemetery the remains were being taken from. 257 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it is absolutely true that you know, there's 258 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: a ton of bones and human remains in private collections, 259 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: in museums, in academic collections all over the country, and 260 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: it is not people of wealth and privilege whose remains 261 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 3: end up in those collections. It is marginalized people, largely largely, 262 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: largely without their consent, whose remains end up that way. 263 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: So what's fascinating. One of the fascinating things about American 264 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: attitudes towards death is, on the one hand, we have 265 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 3: expressed in the law these super absolute statements right once 266 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: placed in the ground or in a mausoleum, human remains, 267 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 3: the remains themselves, the deceased person has a right to perpetual, 268 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: undisturbed repose. And that makes sense historically because the Christians 269 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: believe that if you move the remains from consecrated ground, 270 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: then you jeopardize their chances of eternal salvation. From a 271 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: historical standpoint, it makes sense why that is sort of 272 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 3: baked into the law. But then on the other hand, 273 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 3: we have, well, unless you want to do something with 274 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: the land, and then we can move the remains right 275 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: in an organized kind of way, but we don't throw 276 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 3: them out. So we have these incredible expressions of respect. 277 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: But then you got all these human remains everywhere, right 278 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: where did these bodies in the museums and private collections 279 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: come from? And see that kind of tension play out 280 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: in the Internet. 281 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: Is there a place where what they did is legal? No? 282 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: Okay, well let me say it this way. What they 283 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 3: did was walk past a burial ground and see skeletal 284 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: remains on the surface, and they picked them up and 285 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 3: took them home. If a person has no legal right 286 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: to exert control over human remains, they have no legal 287 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 3: right to exert control over human remains. Right, So it's 288 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 3: the next of kin or a person appointed by the 289 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 3: deceased who would have the legal rights. And then those 290 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: legal rights are con strained in particular ways. You have 291 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: to dispose of them finally within X number of days 292 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 3: after death. That kind of thing, right, you have the 293 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: law making it expressly illegal to do that kind of 294 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 3: activity in Louisiana. Most other states don't have a law 295 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 3: that's that specific, but they don't create a legal path either. Right, 296 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: So there are some activities that are not expressly legal, 297 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 3: but they're not expressly illegal either. You can't find permission 298 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 3: in the law to do a thing, but you also 299 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 3: won't get punished if you do it. I mean, first 300 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 3: of all, Louisiana has a lot of graves in the ground. 301 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 3: There's a ton of flooding, the water table is high. 302 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 3: Graves wash up every year in various places in the state, 303 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: and it is a nightmare to try and identify remains 304 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: and get them back in the ground where they're supposed to. 305 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: So I think that they probably have because of the 306 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 3: natural circumstances of the land, they have more problems than 307 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: many other places do. 308 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: Where is this area of law headed? Is the Harvard case? 309 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: Do you do you anticipate there being any significant change 310 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: or have you felt a shift in awareness or willingness 311 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: to talk about death since you've begun studying this area 312 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: of law. 313 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 3: I have not. I mean culturally, at the edges you 314 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: see more willingness to talk about death. I don't know 315 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 3: that that will filter through, you know. The problem is 316 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 3: when you have law of state level, you really need 317 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 3: interest groups who are willing to go in and lobby 318 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 3: the state legislatures to adopt particular laws. The issue with 319 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: making it more clear about what we can and cannot 320 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: do with human remains, like in these sorts of cases, 321 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: right like after disposition, is who's the interest group who's 322 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: going to go lobby the state legislatures to change the laws? 323 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: Right? 324 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: The public is really bad at mobilizing, So if a 325 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: couple state legislators read the news and get really disturbed 326 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 3: by it and want to push it. But you just 327 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: don't have any sort of organized group that's saying, let's 328 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 3: make this more clue. It's only expressly illegal in let's 329 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 3: say nine states to buy and sell human remains, it 330 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: should be illegal in every state. Let's go into the 331 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 3: state legislatures and make that happen. I don't know who's 332 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 3: going to do that. Yeah, so I'm not super optimistic 333 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: that this is going to happen anytime soon. 334 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. This was fascinating. 335 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: Truth well, thank you. 336 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Tania Marsh. 337 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 3: You can buy her. 338 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: Book at the link in the description. And when we 339 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: come back, Insight from a Real life witch Welcome back 340 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: to sixteenth minute. Everything I know about witchcraft I learned 341 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: from my uncle Dennis. Here he is talking in my 342 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: last podcast, Ghost Church. 343 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 5: I don't try and get any ready to believe anything. 344 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 5: I don't care what you believe. It's your business. For 345 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 5: those that believe, no proof is necessary. For those that 346 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: don't know, proof is sufficient. I can't make you believe 347 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 5: something you don't want to believe. I can only tell 348 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 5: you my experiences. 349 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: And today we're talking about the Tumblr Bone Witch. So 350 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: now we understand how the law in Louisiana and across 351 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: the US ranges considerably, making Darling's conviction all but inevitable. 352 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: But again, while there is no world where I would 353 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: condone stealing the bones of a disenfranchised stranger and putting 354 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: them in the US mail, I do feel bad that 355 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: this essentially derailed Darling's life because while it's true that 356 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: they broke the law, my anticursoral heart can't help but 357 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: think that part of why this happened was for the 358 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: entertainment of the Internet masses. And that's complicated too, because 359 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: within those masses were a number of black and Indigenous 360 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: witches who were understandably angry with Ender Darling for, in 361 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: many people's view, completely misconstruing their spiritual practice. But let's 362 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: be honest, there were plenty of people watching Bone Gazie 363 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: who were strictly there for the weirdness and the spectacle 364 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: of it all. So listener, I needed to speak with 365 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: a witch who had a background in the magic that 366 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: Darling claimed to be working with. And not to brag, 367 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: but I know someone. Here's my chat with my pal 368 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: the wonderful. JV. 369 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 6: Hampton van Sant Hello everyone, I am JV. Hampton Van Sant. 370 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 7: I am a voice actor, a drag queen, and a 371 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 7: witch of some several types, honestly just a witch generally 372 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 7: a witch about town. 373 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: What is your memory of encountering this story for the 374 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: first time? 375 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 7: So I didn't encounter this while it was happening, But 376 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 7: Tumblr history is so fascinating. There's so many why things 377 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 7: like this that just happened on there, and I'm like, 378 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 7: what what? 379 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 4: So? 380 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,239 Speaker 7: I was raised Unitarian, which I feel like is the 381 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 7: reason I don't have religious trauma just point blank period. 382 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 6: I just don't. The whole thing that they let you 383 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 6: do is like. 384 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 7: Okay, so you can stay here if you want, but 385 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 7: you can also like make a decision to not be 386 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 7: here if you don't want. I was at that point 387 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 7: just drawn to paganism in all its different forms. At thirteen, 388 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 7: I made the decision to like not go to that 389 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 7: church all the time. I still go there on occasion. 390 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 7: Because of that, and because I'm now thirty four, I 391 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 7: have now been I've now been pagan for over twenty 392 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 7: one years. 393 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 6: I remember my early years. 394 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 7: And the like the things I would think about and 395 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 7: get up to. And this entire controversy was feeling very 396 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 7: much like, oh, this is your like first second, third 397 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 7: year of this where you're not quite sure of all 398 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 7: of what this is, so. 399 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 6: There's some stuff to work out there. 400 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: When you were exploring paganism, were you using the internet 401 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: a lot? Where were you going so of what were 402 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: your resources as you were learning. 403 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 7: There's a small shop in my town called Crystal Essence. 404 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 7: They had a very robust like book section, and I 405 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 7: started working literally at like twelve, because I wanted to 406 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 7: be out in doing things rather than and earning money 407 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 7: a little bit too, so I bought some books from them, 408 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 7: and it was very much like, congratulations, you've decided you 409 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 7: want to do witchcraft and things. Let's go through the 410 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 7: basics and also tell you some shit not to do 411 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 7: because you're teenagers and you don't you don't need to 412 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 7: be messing with shit on this level on these huge, 413 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 7: powerful thingies. 414 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 6: There's a part of the post where. 415 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 7: She starts talking about like I work with death and 416 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 7: I work with death magic, and part of me was. 417 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 6: Immediate like why what are you doing? 418 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 7: Not Necromance are very clear about that, but also what 419 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 7: the fuck are you doing with this? 420 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: Sounds silly, but could you walk me through why this 421 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: is wrong? Specifically in the context of having been a 422 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: witch for so long? 423 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 7: All right, So all of these are like wildly practical concerns. 424 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 7: If you think about what bones are, they are things 425 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 7: that were in the body that was that housed a 426 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 7: human soul. Right, That's what they generally speaking are, and 427 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 7: that's why bodies are kind of sacred and viewed as 428 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,239 Speaker 7: sacred and important across literally every religion. Anything that was 429 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 7: tied to a specific human soul thing. Number one, whatever 430 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 7: you're going to do with that thing, that soul also 431 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 7: has to be on board with whatever you're doing. I 432 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 7: highly doubt whatever they were planning on doing, whoever they 433 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 7: were doing it with was probably not on board with it. 434 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 6: Just for curse work specifically, I don't think so. 435 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 7: So just on a practical level, it's gonna fuck up 436 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 7: whatever you're gonna do because they aren't on board with 437 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 7: whatever you're trying to do because you've not asked them 438 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 7: and you've not shown them any level of respect in 439 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 7: like the use of their bones in any way. So, 440 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 7: point blank period, you've disrespected somebody. So they're not going 441 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 7: to want to help you. 442 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 4: Thing. 443 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 7: Number two, items that are like tied to a specific 444 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 7: person tend to also link whatever you are doing to 445 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 7: that person. So if you are attempting to do a 446 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 7: curse on somebody, you have bones of a completely different 447 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 7: person that's going to fuck up where the energy goes. 448 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's obviously illegal, but it also 449 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: is impractical as far as which craft goes exactly. 450 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 7: This speaks to me of like you were going for 451 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 7: an esthetic and you weren't going for the practicality, because 452 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 7: the practicality of that would have you consider energy, and 453 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 7: energy is specific and it's specific to each person. You 454 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 7: would then just be muddling everything up with that energy. 455 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 7: So like, if what this person wanted, and here's where 456 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 7: I'm going to be slightly controversial and give alternative options, 457 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 7: and I will use myself as like a sort of 458 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 7: reference for this. A friend of mine a few months 459 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 7: ago was having issues with an ex who kept like 460 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 7: contacting them. This ex had abused them, so it was 461 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 7: like kind of a bit of a serious thing. So 462 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 7: in addition to just socially surrounding him constantly with like 463 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 7: people that would keep him. 464 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 6: Safe, I decided to throw in a little bit of 465 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 6: cursework on my own. 466 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 7: What I used for that rather than like, I don't 467 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 7: know anything bone related. I used the dirt from a 468 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 7: gravesite of a civil rights leader whose legacy is such 469 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 7: that she has a domestic violence center named after her. 470 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 7: So like it made the energy was tied there, and 471 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 7: I knew that that was the type of work. Also 472 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 7: I attempted to commune with her a bit, so like 473 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 7: I could ask for permission for that, and like offered 474 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 7: something in exchange for the little bit of dirt that 475 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 7: I was taking from that little graveyard. Another sort of 476 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 7: alternative to that is to leave a quartz bristle, something 477 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 7: that absorbs energy anyway, leave that above the grave that 478 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 7: you of the person you are specifically you want their 479 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 7: energy and their help with this. You leave that there. 480 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 7: You let that charge a little bit. People tend to 481 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,719 Speaker 7: not take things from graveyards generally, So if you do 482 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 7: go and visit like respectfully, and you leave that there, 483 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 7: it'll take up the energy that is needed. And then 484 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 7: you come back after a few days, you bring that 485 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 7: home with. 486 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: You, okay, And then that way there's no you know, 487 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: explicit quote unquote disturbance of the site. 488 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 7: Exactly, yes, because like I will own the part that 489 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 7: I did, technically would also have disturbed a little bit 490 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 7: of the site I took basically like a little bit 491 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 7: of grass and like a small bit of dirt, but 492 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 7: like not a noticeable chunk, just like those specific sort 493 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 7: of plots that I like, know what legacy they have 494 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 7: and I know what their life's work was, So you 495 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 7: also have to know where this is coming from. 496 00:27:59,359 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 6: They have a. 497 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 7: Good a good system generally around keeping these things safe 498 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 7: in places where this is a huge concern. There's a 499 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 7: way to handle all of this that is so much 500 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 7: more respectful of the dead, respectful of the people that 501 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 7: were at one point there, who to some degree are 502 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 7: still there in terms of energy and spirit. Their consent 503 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 7: is also important in everything that we do. Consent is 504 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 7: always important, and this entire situation was devoid of that consent. 505 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 7: And part of that is the poverty of it, Like 506 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 7: if I recall correctly, it's the paupers grave that they 507 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 7: had said, at least in the initial post. 508 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: What was the tenor of online which in communities as 509 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: you've experienced them. 510 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 7: So I have had very limited sort of experiences with 511 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 7: online which communities but I have had a lot of 512 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 7: experience with online communities in general. It's unfortunate that that's 513 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 7: the case, because I do think that the Internet should 514 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 7: have safe spaces, but like in a community that is 515 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 7: that large and full of that many people, yeah, that's 516 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 7: gonna happen, particularly if you start doing something like a 517 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 7: little fucking. 518 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 6: Crazy for lack of a better way to refer to it, like. 519 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: They did something that I sort of think they didn't 520 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: understand quite how illegal it was, and then instead of 521 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: taking the criticism, got very defensive and double down and 522 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: double down and double down. 523 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 7: My go to instinct, and I think on Carly said 524 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 7: it in her video as well, which is I would 525 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 7: straight up just delete my Tumblr and I would leave 526 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 7: like I just like, I'm gonna ditch Tumblr, and I'm 527 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 7: going to also leave that Facebook group and then I'm gone, 528 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 7: like no one will like, no one will know that 529 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 7: that is me, no one will be able to talk 530 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 7: to me about this, and I'm not going to respond 531 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 7: about this further. And I'll also delete that post in 532 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 7: that group because at that point, like, well, people have 533 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 7: taken this out of context and have taken it elsewhere. 534 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 7: The aim is just remove posts so that no one 535 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 7: can continue to contact me wherever possible. Scorch just baseline 536 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 7: safety reasons. Also, a nobody need to go around threatening 537 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 7: and threatening people's children. That's stupid, That's that's corny, that's tired, 538 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 7: this plate out, We're not doing that. I did appreciate 539 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 7: the line, I'll. 540 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 6: Put your teeth on my altar. That was good, that 541 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 6: was kind. 542 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 7: I love that they had me with that. That said, 543 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 7: the reliance also on like indigenous practices to some extent. 544 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 7: One of the things that I've been researching more just 545 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 7: as time has gone on is root work and things 546 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 7: like that. So root work and conjure are not an 547 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 7: aspect necessarily a voodoo, but something related to it in 548 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 7: that this is the folk magic of the American South, 549 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 7: as it were. I have looked into it. A lot 550 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 7: of it does come from the blending of multiple cultures, 551 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 7: including Indigenous American cultures and Indigenous African cultures, and just 552 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 7: these different roots and has all these different roots in 553 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 7: different medicinal practices. Honestly, more than anything else, medicinal was 554 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 7: the primary thing that I when I look at the 555 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 7: qualities of different herbs and items that are produced by 556 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 7: the earth, better than used in this way. It's use 557 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 7: has been medicinal or spiritual within that and looking through 558 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 7: that lens of those things, yeah, these people still wouldn't 559 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 7: tell you to use the bones of a random stranger, 560 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 7: least of all a poor stranger who probably has had 561 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 7: a difficult ass life and does not need some random 562 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 7: people doing some weird shit that's going to get them 563 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 7: cursed and probably their whole family lineage cursed because they're 564 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 7: not careful enough. I just ultimately would be like, hey, 565 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 7: this isn't the way. This is not a good idea. 566 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: Where the story kind of comes full circle is black 567 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: witches within the group were like, well, hold on, how 568 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: do we factor in here? Because we're not okay with this? 569 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: And if the way that the group is structured means 570 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: we can air our genuine concerns, then how is it 571 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: a safe space if we're being asked to kind of 572 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: quiet down when this was very likely the grave of 573 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: a poor black person living in New Orleans? What now? 574 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: And the group kind of self implodes from there because 575 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: no one could come to an understanding. 576 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 7: That is the only way that I would see that going. 577 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 7: And the mod response to that, I think is a 578 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 7: fair one of like, well, yeah, we generally try not 579 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 7: to criticize each other because everyone has different practices, Like 580 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 7: there is a local witch group out here and that 581 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 7: we have that same general rule. Everyone is welcome at 582 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 7: any of our practice, at any of our ceremonies at 583 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 7: any point unless you are bringing like extremely negative ass 584 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 7: energy and then we don't have to kick you out. 585 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 6: But that's like that was an energy related thing. 586 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 7: You do have to like check in with people because 587 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 7: once again, within every aspect of life and everything, consent 588 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 7: is important. So like sometimes people are just not straight 589 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 7: up going to be consenting to death related magic, like 590 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 7: I just at a certain point, people just aren't necessarily 591 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 7: going to all be on board with that because that's 592 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 7: a lot, that's a lot to do, and that's a 593 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 7: lot of energy and it drains a lot out of you. 594 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 7: Maybe don't bring that to the larger coven. That's just 595 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 7: not what the larger coven is able to handle. You 596 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 7: can find other people that will be able to handle it, 597 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 7: and that is then your your smaller coven, your smaller 598 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 7: circle of people. But also at that point, this person, 599 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 7: we're probably doing it in like a solo practice, which 600 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 7: again I would caution to them is like pretty dangerous. 601 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 7: One of the most misunderstood things about voodoo and root 602 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 7: work generally is that there's a principle of balance and 603 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 7: working with both hands, as it were. So whatever you 604 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 7: do that is good, you might be called upon by 605 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 7: people to do something possibly a little bit negative, but 606 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 7: you are only in ways that restore a balance of 607 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 7: some type or restore peace in some way. I feel 608 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 7: like at that point, if you're thinking about things karmically 609 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 7: and thinking about the level of energy you are attempting 610 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 7: to pool and to pull from at a certain point, 611 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 7: doing things then with death is maybe a little bit 612 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 7: too far. And it isn't just necessarily that your own 613 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 7: beliefs are the things that are going to affect you. 614 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 7: It also if you are doing something that involves another 615 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 7: person is going to involve their beliefs as well. So 616 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 7: if you are violating someone's consent and they believe that 617 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 7: if you violate their consent with one of these workings 618 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 7: that that will reflect poorly back on you, that's when 619 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 7: you have to be concerned, because that's then how that 620 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 7: energy is going to be directed. 621 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 6: I don't know. 622 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 7: My whole thought is like, yeah, this is a young 623 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 7: person doing a young person thing, and as a person 624 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 7: who's been doing this for over twenty years, I would 625 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 7: literally just want to tell them, hey, one, you just 626 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 7: doing too much, honey, you're just doing way too much. 627 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 6: This is too much. 628 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 7: I will say, keep going and helping keep the graves. Like, Okay, 629 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 7: that's a good thing to do. That was a proactive 630 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 7: and good thing to do. If you find bones when 631 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 7: you do this, first of all, take note of where 632 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 7: it is. Take a photo so that you can show 633 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 7: it to whoever is in charge of maintenance of that 634 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 7: place so that they can deal with it. It's weird, 635 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 7: it's strange. I'm personally not okay with that as a thing, 636 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 7: but the government seems to never actually care about the 637 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 7: bodies of people of color. Just ask any museum ever. 638 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 7: Consent is always the thing that I look to first 639 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 7: for literally everything, but specifically for something like this. Is 640 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 7: every party consenting to this, and yes, even the dead, 641 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 7: even the day. If the dead are not consenting, things 642 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 7: going and take a turn, and it's never going to 643 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 7: be for the better. 644 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so so much to JV for their time 645 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: and for sharing their practice. It was genuinely enlightening to 646 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: hear from someone who has experience in traditionally Black American 647 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: forms of spirituality and witchcraft. And also JV's just really 648 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: funny and cool. You can follow their work at the 649 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: links in the description. And when we come back, what 650 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: can we learn from bone Gazi? Can we learn from 651 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: bone Gazi? Have we as a culture recovered from bone Gazi? 652 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 4: More? 653 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: When we come back? Welcome back to sixteenth minute. The 654 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 1: closest I've been to being a grave robber was taking 655 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: a taxidermy class last year, and I have no regrets, 656 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: and I have one more conversation about the Tumbler bone 657 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: witch saga that I'd like to share. Speaking with Tanya 658 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: and JV was extremely helpful in terms of placing this 659 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: moment along both legal and spiritual lines, where there was 660 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: more ethical crossover than I would have expected. But I 661 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: still felt that speaking with someone from New Orleans was 662 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: crucial because New Orleans relationship with death and the occult 663 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: is extremely unique. It's the home of Louisiana Voodoo, an 664 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: African diasporic religion that to this day is organized and 665 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: practiced autonomously. You may have heard of its most famous practitioner, 666 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: Black Indigenous, which Marie Leveaux. There's also who DOOO practitioners 667 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: through Harria Practitioners. Basically, the city's association with the occult 668 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: is both extremely strong and unlike places like Salem, connected 669 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: specifically to predominantly non white cultures, and this, combined with 670 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: the climate, makes for a very unique culture around graves 671 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: and death rituals as well. And there were a number 672 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: of groups dedicated to preserving and respecting this wide diversity 673 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: of practices. So I reached out to an organization that 674 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: was one of the earliest to condemn under Darling's actions 675 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: at Holt Cemetery, a nonprofit group called Save Our Cemeteries, 676 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: and I was lucky to speak with their vice president, 677 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: Shanna Hudson Stowe, about why this was not just a 678 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: harmful act, but uniquely harmful in New Orleans. 679 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 6: Here's our talk. 680 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 4: My name is Shane Stowe. I am currently the vice 681 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 4: president for Save our Cemetery in New Orleans, Louisiana. Save 682 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 4: Our Cemeteries is a nonprofit organization that was founded in 683 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four by Mary lu Kristovich, who was a 684 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 4: formidable person in New Orleans who also led the charge 685 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 4: of the founding of the preservation Resource Center and was 686 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 4: a major funder for the Historic New Orleans Collection, hence 687 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 4: the name Save Our Cemetery. She succeeded, and her legacy 688 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 4: is that Saint Louis Member one is now one of 689 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 4: the most famous cemeteries in the United States. A different 690 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 4: approach in care and attitude by cemetery owners of particularly 691 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 4: historic cemeteries. 692 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 1: I've spoken with a few different people about this story, 693 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: and everyone says that New Orleans has a very multicultural 694 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: population and history. Something I hadn't considered was that that 695 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: would of course interfere with cemeteries, with rules, with customs, 696 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: and with death rituals. So when you're working in preserving 697 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: such a unique area with regards to its culture towards death, 698 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: what are things you find yourself bumping up against her 699 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: having to manage as the organization sort of evolves. 700 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,479 Speaker 4: We took a stance very early on that we would 701 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 4: be historically accurate and that we would also respect the 702 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 4: dignity and the integrity of the cemeteries and the structures 703 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 4: within it. We did not always find that other tours 704 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 4: businesses or guides took that approach. Human ring remains, you 705 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 4: don't want to breathe that in. You really don't. It's 706 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 4: just not good for you. 707 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: The subject of the show that I'm working on is 708 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: the tumblr bone Wich saga from almost ten years ago. Now, 709 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: I know you said when we were emailing that you 710 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: vividly recall this, So could you sort of walk me 711 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: through what your experience with this was and what save 712 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: our cemeteries experience with learning that this had happened. 713 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 4: I was doing my normal Facebook kind of scroll saying 714 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:45,439 Speaker 4: and a friend of mine said, holy crap, what is this? 715 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 4: And my friend was a gas and appalled and horrified 716 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 4: by it, and I was like, oh my, and I 717 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 4: had a very visceral similar reaction to it. Holds some Harry, 718 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 4: is what you would call a potter's field. There's two 719 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 4: elements of a potter's field. One is that the city 720 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 4: used this ground for unidentified people and also people who 721 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 4: died incarcerated in their jail system. And also when there 722 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 4: was mass death events such as or a terrible flooding event, 723 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 4: they were buried on masks, so they're basically buried in 724 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 4: a probably in a shroud which is essentially just wrapped 725 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 4: in a sheet, put into a grave with maybe other individuals, 726 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 4: and then they were covered over. They did bury them 727 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 4: fairly deeply. This is a part of town where the 728 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 4: elevation is a little higher, so they can do in 729 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 4: ground burials and hold is all in ground burials. There 730 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 4: are no tombs. 731 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: You come across this store organically and you're horrified by 732 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: what happens. 733 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 4: Then well, I started making some phone calls and sending 734 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 4: some emails, and one of them was to Amanda Walker, 735 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 4: who was the executive director of Save Our Cemeteries at 736 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 4: that time, and I said, we need to do something 737 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 4: about this because this cannot continue. And also it should 738 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 4: be noted that it is illegal to sell human remain 739 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 4: to cross day line. It is a federal crime if 740 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 4: you sell them across day line. So it makes sense 741 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 4: in the fact if you think of people who were 742 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 4: not necessarily inturd boxes or maybe not buried very deeply. 743 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 4: I'll say very deeply. Because the other element of whold 744 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 4: cemetery is that it's what you would call it diy cemetery. 745 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: Okay, what do you mean. 746 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 8: Do it yourself, very very own, bury your own well, 747 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 8: d I Y, you know, do it yourself, so you 748 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 8: would take care of your you. And I think that 749 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 8: you could still do that and Carrollton has a little 750 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 8: section you can do that too. So if you have 751 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 8: a loved one and you could hire somebody to dig 752 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 8: a burial spot and you pick a spot and the 753 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 8: rest is up to you. Wow, you enter your your 754 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 8: loved one and you make your own coping, you make 755 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 8: your own marker and yeah, yeah. It is a place 756 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 8: where people who did not have the means to have 757 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 8: a formal funeral or a formal burial service or owned 758 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 8: a family tomb, and so there are fairly recent burials there. Hold, 759 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 8: it's still an a cemetery. You know, a human body 760 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 8: can once it starts to degrade at any number of 761 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 8: different rates, So it depends. There's a lot of different 762 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 8: factors involved with it, which is one of the reasons 763 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 8: why it is a study of several different places to 764 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 8: measure how things affect people. In terms of forensic science, 765 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 8: you know, when they find somebody who has died and 766 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 8: is unintended and being able to figure out how long 767 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,359 Speaker 8: they were out there or to date a burial that 768 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 8: might be one hundred years old or five hundred years old. 769 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: Based on everyone I've talked to it and particularly this 770 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: conversation that having a permanent resting place seems to be 771 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: kind of a class issue, and it very much though. 772 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 4: But I think it's it really speaks to your question 773 00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 4: about human dignancy and also race and class. In the 774 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 4: United States and not just in Louisiana, there was a 775 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 4: commission enacted by state law to address African American burial 776 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 4: that are located on private property that may not be 777 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 4: identified or being properly cared for by the owners. And 778 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 4: this came about, I'm going to say twenty seventeen. This 779 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 4: commission met once. There hasn't been any activity on that 780 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 4: since that time. And African American enslaved burial places, you know, 781 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 4: that's a national issue, particularly in the Eastern and southeastern 782 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 4: United States, and there has been a lot of discussion 783 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 4: about being able to make these properties accessible, perhaps in 784 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 4: some cases removing remains and placing them in a place 785 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 4: that is more secure for longevity and proper marking. The 786 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 4: level of care and concern is really led by citizens. 787 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: Say I am walking around a graveyard and I see 788 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: that there have been remains that have surfaced from a grave. 789 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: What should your average person do? 790 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 4: I think my first, first and foremost answered that is 791 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 4: leave it alone. Leave it alone, particularly you know, in 792 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,240 Speaker 4: a place like cold, I would say, definitely leave it alone. 793 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 4: If it happens in a place that needs to be managed, 794 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 4: then I would bring that to the attention of the 795 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 4: owner of the cemetery or the proctor or what they 796 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 4: call the sexton, which is a term for somebody who's 797 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 4: basically caretaker of the cemetery. So if you bring that 798 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 4: to the attention of them and say, hey, look, you know, 799 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 4: there's something not quite right. And also one of the 800 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 4: things possible in my personal experience, it could have been 801 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 4: an animal bone. 802 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you just can't be sure. 803 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 4: Depending on the situation you're in, but don't pick it up, 804 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 4: don't move it. And whether you notify somebody or not, 805 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 4: I would say it depends on the situation. 806 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: What can we take away from this incident? Leave it alone, 807 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: you know. 808 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 4: And also to real life, this was a part of 809 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 4: a human being. The thing is about human relay remains 810 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 4: is that this was a person. This is somebody who 811 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 4: had a mother and a father. Maybe they had children, 812 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 4: but this was somebody who had a life and that 813 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 4: life should be respected and their life is just as 814 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 4: valid as your it is. Now to me, that's at 815 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 4: the core of that. Most of the people that I 816 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 4: encounter who work in the funeral industry, they really do 817 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,359 Speaker 4: have a deep understanding of that it was inhumane and 818 00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 4: the most it was just it was it was really deplorable. 819 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Shanna for her time. And you 820 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: can learn more about Save our Cemeteries at the link 821 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: in the description. So what can we learn from the 822 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,439 Speaker 1: Bone Witch saga after all these discussions. I really think 823 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: it has to do with who you are and what 824 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:26,280 Speaker 1: your views are. Tanya, JV, and Shanna all had slightly 825 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: different approaches to this story because they're individuals and they 826 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: have their own relationships with death. Tanya's is very legal, 827 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: JV's is very spiritual, Shanna's is community minded. And that's 828 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: just the surface. I won't pretend that any one law 829 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,360 Speaker 1: or faith tenant will have an answer that works for everyone. 830 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: It definitely won't. But here's what we all agreed on 831 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 1: the bone Witch maybe missed the mark. It really depends 832 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: if we're talking witchcraft. I think there's a lesson to 833 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: be learned about really getting educated and listening to longtime 834 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: practitioners instead of just acting alone. If we're talking human remains, 835 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot to be said about how none of 836 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: these laws, for the most part, have been updated in 837 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: the last century, making the punishments associated with disrespecting human 838 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 1: remains kind of more of a slap on the wrist 839 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 1: if we're talking Internet. The lesson of the Tumblr bone 840 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: Witch saga is that when shit hits the fan and 841 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: you did it, stop posting. My God. And on that note, 842 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 1: the Tumblr bone Witch and bone Gazi, we're putting this 843 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,720 Speaker 1: in the ground for real this time. Your sixteenth minute 844 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: ends now, and I know exactly what we're going to 845 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: do for our moment of fun this week. This is 846 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: the Halloween media that haunts my soul personally, the haunted 847 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: cassette tape form McDonald that used to play on my 848 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: aunt's porch until my ears bled. Happy Halloween, Motherfucker's see 849 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:05,800 Speaker 1: you next week. 850 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 6: Watch that. 851 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 1: I think it's the ghost. 852 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,760 Speaker 3: It's gang closer. 853 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,320 Speaker 1: Look cool. 854 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 6: A panic, look bok, who's Thereoooo? 855 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: Don't cry, It's all leave me. Gramma sixteenth Minute is 856 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: a production of Full Zone Media and iHeart Radios. It 857 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: is written, posted, and produced by me Jamie Ossis. Our 858 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,280 Speaker 1: executive producers are Sophie Lichtman and Robert Evans. The amazing. 859 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our 860 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is from 861 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: Grant and Pet. Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson, 862 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: my cat's fleeing Casper, and my pet rock Bird, who 863 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,839 Speaker 1: will outlive us all Bye.