1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I think the best 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: way of characterizing this administration it is essentially the kind 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: of monetization of US hegemony. The left polite way is 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: something about a mafioso shakedown. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Flanders, head of Government and Economics at Bloomberg, 6 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: and this is Trumpanomics, the podcast that looks at the 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 2: economic world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped the 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: global economy and what on earth is going to happen next. 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: This week, well, we're widening the lens a bit because 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: I just had a fascinating conversation i'd like to share 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: with you. The occasion was Bloomberg's second Women, Money and 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: Power event in London, and the conversation was with Alessandra Galoni, 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: the editor in chief of Reuter's News Agency, and Zanni Mintembadows, 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: editor in chief of The Economist. The title of our 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: session was reporting on money and Power in the current moment, 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: and there was plenty of Trump andomics in the mix. 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: But what you'll also hear is how all three of 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: us have been grappling with not just the sheer volume 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: of news coming out of Washington, but also the Trump 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: administration's aggressive approach to handling the media. We see that 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: obviously in the Jimmy Kimmel saga and the many lawsuits 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: the President has filed against the New York Times, the 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal, most of the traditional US news networks. 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: But it's also something we've been living with behind the 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 2: scenes since the White House took control of the White 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: House Press Pool and dramatically cut the mainstream media's regular 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 2: access to the president. So yes, it's a little bit 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: more introspective than our usual discussions on Trump andomics. But 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 2: like it or not, Donald Trump is leaving his mark 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: on journalism as well as the global economy, and sitting 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: at the helm of these two major news organizations, Zanni 32 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: and Alessandra have a bird's eye view of both. I 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: started by asking Alessandra eight months in how this Trump 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: administration had changed the way Reuters did its job. 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: I think there's sort of two buckets, right, there's what 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 3: you have to do journalistically, and then instead of how 37 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: you go about it and navigate some of the new 38 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: rules that have come in journalistically, I think, you know, 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: the bottom line is sort of a back to the future. 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 3: You do what we always do, which is you report 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: this administration. And what we try to do is we 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: try to report what matters, you know, what the real 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 3: effects of the executive orders are, or what the real 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: effects of changes in policy new laws are. So for example, 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: just yesterday, we had a story that looked at how 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 3: prosecutions for drug abuse, or for money laundering, or for 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: crime financial crimes that used to be prosecuted a lot 48 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 3: in the US have now sort of given way to 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: deportations because so much attention of the Trump administration is 50 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 3: focused on deportations that a lot of the same sort 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: of prosecutors and officers who are focusing on one type 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: of crime are now focusing on what Trump classifies as 53 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: another type of crime. So again, what flows from changes 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: in policy. That's just one example. I mean this there's 55 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: worth perhaps mentioning a few of the restrictions that we've had. 56 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: The new one is on the Pentagon reporting, which all 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: of us have, which is that there's a new rule 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 3: now or a new request for all journalists who cover 59 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 3: the Pentagon to sign a piece of paper saying that 60 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: that essentially we wouldn't publish something that could be in 61 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: a security interest of the of the US, you know, 62 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: without checking with the Pentagon first. Essentially, now, of course 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: that is something that we can't do right, and that 64 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: is something that I think, you know, to my knowledge, 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: virtually nobody has signed this right and you faced the 66 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: same thing. And so we're you know, talking to the 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: administration about how we can change this. And interestingly, what 68 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: we understand is that it's actually aimed more at people 69 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: work in the Pentagon to avoid them from leaking. And 70 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: of course leaks also have been sort of more kind 71 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: of criminalized with a criminalization of what the administration would 72 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: call leaks. So I think on the reporting side, we 73 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: keep reporting on the news, trying to you know, understand 74 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 3: what is going on, and then sort of try to 75 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: convince the administration that, you know, First Amendment press freedom 76 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 3: is something important for everyone no matter where you operate 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 3: in the US or in our case, in all the 78 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 3: two hundred other countries where we work. 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: And I mean as why and news services obviously Router's 80 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 2: and Bloomberg have been affected by just taking what taking 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: the wires out of the Oval office. As a matter 82 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: of course, off the plane, there was always a wire 83 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: journalist previously on the plane, or more than one. There's 84 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: just a consistent sort of lack of people to ask 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: questions or questions that aren't along the lines of mister president, 86 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 2: how do you look so healthy and so much younger 87 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: than in your previous administration. But I mean, Zami, you're 88 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: in a slightly different position with the economists, but I 89 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: know obviously you have much the same journalistic mission. How 90 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 2: are you dealing with the different aproach that this administration has? 91 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: You know, what we do is to join the dots 92 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: between geopolitics, business technology to help our readers understand where 93 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: the world is going. And that mission is exactly the 94 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: same as it always has been, and the Trump administration 95 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: changed our framework because the Trump's administration is so dominant 96 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: in pretty much every global story. And so for me, 97 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: one of the things that has changed is that I 98 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time making sure that we differentiate 99 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 1: between the signal and the noise. If you're not careful, 100 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: every story about every part of the world could start 101 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: with the reference to Donald Trump. And so I spend 102 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: quite a lot of time, either literally or at least figuratively, 103 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: crossing out first paragraphs that mentioned Trump too much. It 104 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: would be incredibly boring if you had every single story 105 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: framed in a Trump way. Differentiating the signal from the 106 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: noise also means, you know, not suffering from Trump derangement 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: syndrome and being fair minded about the way you cover 108 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: this administration. We have a lot of Republican readers, we 109 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: have a lot of Trump administration people read US, and 110 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: indeed trumpions read us. And I think it's very important 111 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: that even people who don't share the economist's world view. 112 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: We believe in liberal values. We were founded to champion them. 113 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: They drive what we do. But I feel very strongly 114 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: that even people who do not share that view should 115 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: find our journalism useful, and so we need to be rigorous, 116 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: fact based. We need to really go the extra mile 117 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: to make sure we are fair minded in our analysis. 118 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: And that's that's doubly important at this moment in terms 119 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: of the kind of way we deal with it. I mean, 120 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: of course, things have changed for us too. All my 121 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: non American journalists when they go to the US now, 122 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: including the carrier, I think it's a G twenty nine form. 123 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: It's a form that if you are stopped by the 124 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: customer border control, you sign it. I'm sure you have 125 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: it too, and they have to call our lawyer in 126 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: the US. I look at my phone before I go. 127 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: I scrub my phone to make sure that just in case. 128 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 3: I have to say. 129 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: I've gone to the US every week this month, and 130 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: I've sailed in and I have global entry. 131 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: And it's also you're not well known. Feel scerless posts exactly. 132 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: But I just think it's prudent, and that is a 133 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: weird feeling. I've been to China many, many times, and 134 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: I have never scrubbed my phone. I've taken a burner computer, 135 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: so for there are different behaviors that I do there. 136 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: But so the environment has changed, undoubtedly. It's a long 137 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: answer to your question, but it makes me value our 138 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: independence more. This sound incredibly pretentious, and I don't mean 139 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: it to be, but I think we should all be thinking, 140 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: not just about the hearing now, but how are our 141 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: successors going to look at what we did. Did we 142 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: go overboard with Trump derangement syndrome or did we normalize 143 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: totally non normal behavior and fail to raise enough red 144 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: flags about what is potentially happening to American democracy? And 145 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: I think the balance between those two is what I'm 146 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: figuring out. 147 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: I think we do find that the White House team, 148 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: particularly I think is having to use it thesaurus very 149 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: often on different words for unprecedented. That's the way you 150 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: put it in perspective and don't normalize it while still 151 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: reporting it. Just to come back on you, Sanny, because 152 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: I was dropped by this a couple of weeks ago. 153 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: There's a version of Trump derangement syndrome when one's thinking 154 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: about global affairs and global events, and I was struck 155 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: the Shanghai Summit and then the parade in China. A 156 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: lot of the coverage saw everything that was happening in 157 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: Beijing as a response to Trump, and indeed India Prime 158 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: Minister Modis going to China, all of that as being 159 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: entirely a response to what Donald Trump had done and 160 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: the trade wars and other things, which in many ways 161 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: was true, or at least was one way of looking 162 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: at it. But there was another way, which I got 163 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: from talking to my Indian colleagues and our geoeconomics analyst 164 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: in India, that it was entirely in line with Prime 165 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: Minister Modi's own objectives. He needed to have a relationship 166 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 2: with China because it's a key part of his manufacturing 167 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: domestic manufacturing agenda that he needed access to these inputs 168 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: from China, and we could show how many inputs he 169 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: relied on, etcetera, etcetera. It struck me that was true 170 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: for almost every country there that you could also just 171 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: redescribe what they were doing as not putting two fingers 172 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: up to Donald Trump, but pursuing their national interests in 173 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: a world in which the US has to some extense 174 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: step back. So how do you guard against that? That's 175 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: an aspect of the same issue. 176 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. That's a sort of 177 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: another way of framing the too much focus on Trump. 178 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: I think two ways. Firstly, you know, what is happening 179 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: right now is a period of extraordinary uncertainty because we've 180 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: got at least three massive great shifts going on in 181 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: the world economy. One is the geopolitical shift, which is 182 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: driven in part by the administration, but was also starting 183 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: long before the rise of China, you know, the kind 184 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: of authoritarian axis. There were big shifts going on before 185 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: the Trump administration. Secondly, the huge economic shift, which again 186 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: predated the sort of I'm afraid the sort of end 187 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: of the unfashionability of the worldview of the economists started 188 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: long before Donald Trump became president. But he's taken it 189 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: a step further with massive protectionist turn. And then the 190 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: third one is the technological revolution who wins the AI race. 191 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: And all three of those are driving the world, and 192 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: all three of those are driving what Prime Minister Moodia 193 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: is doing, or Brazil is doing, or any country doing. 194 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: And so you're right, if you only think of this 195 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: through the prism of the US and through Trump, you're 196 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: missing something. And once that for this, I think the 197 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: US is what you'll know down exactly. I think there's 198 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: a sixteen percent of global trade. It's a relatively small proportion. 199 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: It's of course it's dominant in global finance, but that 200 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: suggests that a lot of what is going on is 201 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: actually external to the United States, and so we have 202 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: to absolutely make sure that we don't overemphasize the impact 203 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: of this hyperactive and of course extremely important administration. 204 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: I completely agree. I think nobody doubts that US administration 205 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 3: is important. And what has been happening where this is 206 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: like global trade, you know, geopolitics is no question something 207 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: that we need to cover. But the risk is if 208 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 3: we only cover it from the vantage point of the US, 209 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: we miss what's actually happening in other countries, and we 210 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: may find ourselves, to your point, about ten years from now, 211 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 3: twenty years from now or more, we may miss the 212 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: applical shifts in places like China and India because we've 213 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 3: only been focusing on them as a result of the 214 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: US administration. And then equally, this accounts on one of 215 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: the key thing for journalists is to be open minded. 216 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 3: You have to be open to the possibility that your ideas, 217 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: your original idea, your original hypothesis, is wrong. And I 218 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 3: think that the mainstream press as we sometimes we're called, 219 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: has a certain view of this administration, and we you 220 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 3: need to be open to the possibility that the US 221 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 3: economy is not going to collapse because of what is happening, 222 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: because that inflation is not going to be what people 223 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 3: feared because of the tariff policy. That you know, the 224 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 3: institutions of the state of law, the institutions in the 225 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 3: US will not collapse necessarily, that they're strong and that 226 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 3: they will last some of the attacks, right, I mean, 227 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: I mentioned before in passing some of the new Attorney 228 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 3: General's rules on against sort of leaks, you know, leaks 229 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 3: by journalists. Well you know what actually what it reversed 230 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 3: was a policy of the Biden administration. It went back 231 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: to a policy of the administration visa you journalists, and 232 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: so I think everybody was ready. So even though we 233 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 3: are there in the rooms and we are fighting for 234 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: press breedo, and we also have to put it into 235 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 3: context right and not criminalize everything that is done by 236 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: this administration while standing firm to fact check everything that 237 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: is said. 238 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: I want to do a bit more on the economics, 239 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: not least because this is going to be getting out 240 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: of my Trumpnomics podcast, which you can get anyway. I 241 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: can't speak about de arrangement syndrome on the name of 242 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: the name of the podcast. I think the closest thing 243 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: to a consistent principle of trump Noomics as it's applied 244 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: globally has been that the rest of the world should 245 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 2: just pay for stuff that previously it got quote unquotes 246 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: for free from the US, whether that's reserve, currency, security umbrella, 247 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: a certain kind of global order. And I think the 248 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: assumps at the beginning of the year might have been 249 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: that countries were going to push back a bit more 250 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: than they have. Have you been surprised any by how 251 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: effective the administration has been short term at dividing and ruling. 252 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: So, first of all, I think your characterization is spot on. 253 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I think the best way of characterizing this administration, and 254 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: people have over the last few months have talked about 255 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: is it is it isolationist? Is it great power series? 256 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: It's not. It is Essentially the polite way is a 257 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 1: kind of monetization of US hegemony. The less polite way 258 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: is something about a mafioso shakedown. And you can you 259 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: can take your pick which one you want to use, 260 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: but that really is the common thread that goes through 261 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: all of the administration's international economic actions. I'm struck. If 262 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: you'd said to me in March, you know, just before 263 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: Liberation Day, and you'd said me, the Trump administration is 264 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: going to increase America's effective tariff from around two percent 265 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: to about nineteen percent, and it's going to have fifty 266 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: percent taffs some countries like India and thirty five percent 267 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: on Canada, I would have said, the odds are we 268 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: are going to go into some kind of nineteen thirties 269 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: style tit for tat trade war. There's going to be retaliation, 270 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: And actually you're right. The surprising thing is that two 271 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: things happened. Ju Jinping retaliated and America caved very clearly. 272 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: Trump realized that he couldn't win that, and then the 273 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: other countries have essentially all tried to strike deals, and 274 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: what we haven't had is a kind of collective we're 275 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: standing up to this. And so in the short term, 276 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: you're right, it's been quite successful. I actually don't. I'm 277 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: not at all sure it's going to be successful in 278 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: the medium term, because I think, firstly, America loses out. 279 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a card carrying free trader, and I 280 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: believe that the country that imposes tariffs does lose out, 281 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: the consumer does pay. It's not good for American competitiveness, 282 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: and although it may not cause an inflation problem in 283 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: the short term, in the long term this is bad 284 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: for the United States. And therefore, I think the rest 285 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: of the world has shown very clearly that it does 286 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: have no intention of going down this route, and so 287 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: you will see greater coordination between different regional trees GA 288 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: agreements that I actually think. I mean, it won't be 289 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: the WTO, it won't be the old system, but you 290 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: will have something that resembles a rules based trading system, 291 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: increasingly excluding the US, and that is not good for 292 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: the US and the medium. 293 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: The system has worked. Ultimately, what you're saying is that 294 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: global trade to a certain extent has worked because we've 295 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: seen the deals that have been struck. You know, it 296 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: has been a huge overhaul of the system. But we 297 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: thought that there would be more of a dismantling. 298 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we have to say we have I think 299 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: it is a new system, but I think that it 300 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: is there. We will see a limit to the ability 301 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: even of the US. That's shakedown. That's where countries over 302 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: the medium term. I think this is the height of 303 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: the shakedown ability. 304 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: And China was and China, as you say, was the one. 305 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: There was no way that you could push further with China, 306 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: and that's why you're backtracked. 307 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: Well, and there's any points out there's more than eighty 308 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: percent of global trade. 309 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: Shameless self promotion. Since this is going to be on 310 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: your conference RESI is that, as you may know, next 311 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: week we're launching the Economist inside US series of video 312 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: shows on there'll be specialist ones and I will co 313 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: host a weekly one, but the first episode will be 314 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: along this track, and as part of it, I am 315 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: I have an interesting conversation with Prime Minister Mark Carney 316 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: on precisely this topic, so you should listen. 317 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: To it right, watch the space. 318 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: The other thing I think we should not forget is 319 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: that a lot of Trump's policies that are ostensibly about economics, 320 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: or sensibly about global trade, or or are actually about 321 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: getting something else in the geopolitical sphere in that his 322 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: linkage policy is very strong. 323 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: So I will what the king. 324 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: Feels like exactly the court exact king, and the king 325 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: likes you, so that then you're going to stop, you know, 326 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: sign a piece deal, right. 327 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: Alessandra, do actually think in this environment? I think we've 328 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: all agreed that there's a kind of short term getting 329 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: along with the US, but long term a real erosion 330 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: of US position and potentially a vacuum into which other 331 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: countries will move in. Do you think there's any scope 332 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: for Europe to step up in this environment? And there's 333 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: a lot of pressure. 334 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: I mean, there's certainly scope. There's a big question as 335 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 3: to whether as to whether Europe will. But I think 336 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 3: another point, and I know we reached the end that 337 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: I that I think we also shouldn't forget recently, actually 338 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 3: we were in the room together when we were talking 339 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: to the former head of I six, I think at 340 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: Davos in January, and one of the things that this 341 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 3: was that was all right, well, what I'm about to 342 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: say is pretty thank you. 343 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: From and among friends. 344 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: No. But one of the things that I thought was 345 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: very interesting is how much of an emphasis he put 346 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 3: on the fact that leave aside the heads of these 347 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: or the organizations, you know, the top organizations of the 348 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 3: US and of the UK, but that a lot of 349 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: the work is done at the second and third level, 350 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 3: and a lot of the relations and he was talking 351 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 3: about about security, but you could extend this to many 352 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 3: other areas is actually done not at the top levels, 353 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: and that the coordination and collaboration still goes on. And 354 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: I was really struck by that because it's suggested to 355 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 3: me that you know, administrations come and go, and they 356 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: are important, and this administration may lead to another same administration. 357 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 3: We just don't know what's going to happen, right, But 358 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 3: that actually between countries and among countries, a lot of 359 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 3: the work that and that holds policies together is still 360 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 3: still good. 361 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: And that is that is actually a lot of the 362 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: concerns were pretty much run out of time. But I 363 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: do want to just because you are also leaders of 364 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: people and managers of people, and this is a pretty fractious, 365 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: often emotive journalistic environment for particularly reporters in the US 366 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: to navigate, and we've seen that in spades over the 367 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: last few weeks. So I just wondered both of you, 368 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: how much are you how much have you had to 369 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: think about that? Have you had issues with people either 370 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: with burnout or just people struggling to sort of hold 371 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 2: that line because you both stand for objective, rigorous reporting. 372 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: The answer is it is people feel very very strongly 373 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: about what's going on. I think we benefit from being 374 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: we don't have to you know, we do different kinds 375 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: of journalism to you too, so we have the time 376 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: to discuss and debate. And what's most important to me 377 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: is that people feel their voices are heard. And so 378 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: we have lots of discussions about a lot of these subjects, 379 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: and we may end up often with leader lines that 380 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: perhaps I'm fairly sure some of my team don't agree with, 381 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: but as long as they've had their voices heard, and 382 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: I think it's people. I mean, I can speak for 383 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: my colleagues. They have been extraordinary in their sort of 384 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: professionalism and the way that they have risen to the challenge. 385 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: They understand that our role is to make sense of 386 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: what is happening, explain it to our readers around the world, 387 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: never never compromise on our underlying values. We are a 388 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: liberal newspaper, classic English liberalism. We proudly champion that. But 389 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: you can do that and at the same time have 390 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: fair minded journalism that distinguishes between the signal and the noise, 391 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: and I think everyone is completely on board with that. 392 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: We have a slightly different situation. You know, we're obviously 393 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: on the sharp edge of a lot of what happens 394 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: in the world, and including in conflict. We've been talking 395 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: about economics, but you know, we have the other half 396 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 3: of our newsroom, you know, is in war zones. We 397 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 3: have many people in Ukraine, I mean, on battlefields around 398 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: the world. So for us, there's a real imperative to 399 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 3: keep our people safe physically all the time, and that 400 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 3: is becoming increasingly difficult. I mean, I mean it's no 401 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: secret I've been in this job as EIC for four 402 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 3: years and we've lost four journalists. So, you know, in conflict, 403 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: so the physical remains very, very important because there are 404 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 3: a lot of actual kinetic situations on the ground. But 405 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: to your point, which is more sort of the emotional 406 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: aspect of it. No, it's very real. I mean, our 407 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 3: journalists in the US are feeling the same sort of 408 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 3: pressures that many of our journalists and other countries feel. 409 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 3: And so, you know, we do a lot of hostile 410 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: environment courses. Those are mainly for physical protection, but increasingly 411 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: we use a lot of mental health protection and how 412 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: to protect your mental health, how to keep yourself safe 413 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: scrubbing your phone, you know, digitally. And we have introduced many, 414 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 3: many more sessions on hostile environment writ large in the 415 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 3: US than we ever could have imagined. 416 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: We are. 417 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: We're rolling out trainings that we've never before done in 418 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: the US. And to your point, people who are in 419 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: the Washington Bureau who have come from Latin American countries 420 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: and others that are finding this much more familiar territory. Okay, final, 421 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: very quick question. We've none of us managed to get 422 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 2: sued our organization so far by the administration. Will you 423 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: be a little bit embarrassed if you're not by the 424 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: end of the administration. 425 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: No, genuinely, don't think about it. I will be embarrassed 426 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: if we haven't done the best possible coverage, and that 427 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: is if that leads to us being sued, so being yeah, are. 428 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: You exciting our general council firing. 429 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: Up our general councils? You know have plenty of work 430 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 3: to do with all the investigations that we do and 431 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: all of the countries we operate in, so I think 432 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: they've got plenty to handle. 433 00:21:52,320 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: Alessandro Zani, thank you so much for Davis. Thanks for 434 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: listening to Trumpnomics from Bloomberg. It was hosted by me 435 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: Stephanie Flanders, and I was in a conversation with the 436 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: Reuters editor in chief Alessandra Galonni and the Economists editor 437 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: in chief Zanni Minton Beadows. Trumponomics was produced by Summer, 438 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: Sadi and Moses and and special thanks this week to 439 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,959 Speaker 2: the organizers of the Women, Money and Power event at 440 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's headquarters in London. Sound design was by Blake Maples 441 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: and Kelly Gary and Amy Keene is our executive producer. 442 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: Sage Bowman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. To help others 443 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: find the show, please rate it and review it highly 444 00:22:46,880 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts.