WEBVTT - Desert Hearts with Emily Mills

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<v Speaker 1>On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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<v Speaker 1>in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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<v Speaker 1>or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and

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<v Speaker 1>Beast start changing with the Bechdelcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Kitland, what are we going to do in forty minutes?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, talk and kiss? Well, probably not kiss

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<v Speaker 3>because they're in public, but they definitely talk about our feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I was I thought, maybe record a scintillating conversation

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<v Speaker 2>on a podcast, the least sexual thing you can do.

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<v Speaker 2>I think podcasting is one of the least sexually charged jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>I beg to differ for who, for who? I you

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<v Speaker 2>know what.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm horny all the time when we're talking.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, oh my gosh, wow wait, I'm realizing we need

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<v Speaker 2>to take this off bike.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh let's get a hotel room.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get a hotel room. Oh my god. In Reno,

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<v Speaker 2>I just this movie so beautiful. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Jamie Loftus.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Caitlin Dronte. This is our show where

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<v Speaker 3>we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the

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<v Speaker 3>Bechdel test. Simply as a jumping off point a very

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<v Speaker 3>relevant test, and the origins of this test are also

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<v Speaker 3>very relevant for today's movie and discussion. So Jamie tell

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<v Speaker 3>us all about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I was gonna say the same thing, because this

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<v Speaker 2>movie and the Bechdel Tests are in direct discussion and

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<v Speaker 2>also are released the same year the Bechdel Test, as

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<v Speaker 2>first mentioned as we as we talk about all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>The bechel Test was created by friend of the show,

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<v Speaker 2>Alison Bechdel, who originally did not seek out to make

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<v Speaker 2>a media metric, but basically wrote this as a one

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<v Speaker 2>off joke in her wonderful comics collection Dice to Watch

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<v Speaker 2>Out For in nineteen eighty five, Interestingly, the same year

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<v Speaker 2>of Desert Hearts, and the precise origins of the test

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<v Speaker 2>are very relevant to our episode today. She co created

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<v Speaker 2>it with her friend Liz Wallace, which we Bechdel Class

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<v Speaker 2>exclusive learned met each other in karate class and fell

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<v Speaker 2>out of touch. So I was expecting a whole, sweeping,

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful story, and it turns out sometimes you just take

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<v Speaker 2>a karate class with a lady and move on with

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<v Speaker 2>your life. But I'm so glad they took that test

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<v Speaker 2>because it changed the course of history in some ways,

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<v Speaker 2>So shout out to that karate class in I think Portland, Oregon.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>In any case, this test has since been adapted to

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<v Speaker 2>a more mainstream media metric, the version that we use,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I'll get back to how it started. The

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<v Speaker 2>version we use requires that two characters of a marginalized

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<v Speaker 2>gender with names speak to each other about something other

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<v Speaker 2>than a man for more than two meaningful lines of dialogue. However,

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<v Speaker 2>the actual, more specific origin of the test in a

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<v Speaker 2>single strip of text to watch out for that is

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<v Speaker 2>basically poking fun at and pointing out how few lesbian

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<v Speaker 2>romances there are in movies and and how that creates

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<v Speaker 2>the need for queer people to you know, ship characters

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<v Speaker 2>that may not be intended to actually be romantically involved

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<v Speaker 2>by the text. It's something we've talked about on the

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<v Speaker 2>show many times before and is very like kind of

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<v Speaker 2>fun way that Alison Bechtel was pointing out that there's

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<v Speaker 2>basically no lesbian representation in movies in nineteen eighty five

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<v Speaker 2>and then until until Desert Hearts, which was released I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was formally released in nineteen eighty six, but

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<v Speaker 2>it first came out at the Locarno Film Festival in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five, directed by the iconic Donna Ditch, screenplay

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<v Speaker 2>by Natalie Cooper and based on a novel that was

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<v Speaker 2>actually written at the time that the movie takes place

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<v Speaker 2>in the fifties, Desert of the Heart by Jane Rule,

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<v Speaker 2>who I'm so excited to talk about because I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know anything about her before yesterday, and so yeah, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of fascinating history with this movie, and it

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<v Speaker 2>is I think maybe more than any other movie we've

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<v Speaker 2>covered in direct conversation with the Bechdel Test. So exciting stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>very exciting. Jane Lynch has seen this movie fifty times,

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<v Speaker 2>I learned today. Wow, she's moderated multiple interviews with Donna

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<v Speaker 2>Ditch and Donna Deitch is like, I haven't seen this

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<v Speaker 2>movie fifty times, and Jane Lynch was like, well, someone

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<v Speaker 2>had to do it, and it was me.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, it's like us and Titanic vibes.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it truly, like sometimes the right movie finds

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<v Speaker 2>you at the right time. And obviously Jane Lynch speaks

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<v Speaker 2>on this beautifully and hilariously, but she was the age

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<v Speaker 2>she was Vivian Bell's a or No, she was wait,

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<v Speaker 2>how old is Jane Lynch. She was one of the

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<v Speaker 2>main characters age when it came out, either k or Vivian.

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<v Speaker 2>I honestly don't know. Okay, it would have been it

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<v Speaker 2>would have been k Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>So she was like twenty five, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and just got absolutely swept up by this movie.

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<v Speaker 2>She said her VHS tape broke so classic shout out Jane.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And we have an incredible guest, and I just like,

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<v Speaker 2>we just got to jump into it.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so excited, we really do. They are a Madison

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<v Speaker 3>based writer, musician DJ editor of Our Lives, which is

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<v Speaker 3>Wisconsin's only and longest running LGBTQ media outlet. They are

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<v Speaker 3>a longtime listener, first time guest.

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<v Speaker 2>Yay, it's Emily Mills. Welcome. Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 4>I am thrilled to be here, truly.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, we're so delighted to have you. You wrote a

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<v Speaker 3>piece about this movie, which is how we found you

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<v Speaker 3>and reached out to you. And who better to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about this movie with us than you.

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<v Speaker 4>I was curious. I'm like, has no one written something

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<v Speaker 4>more recently? I mean, this is just me being self effacing,

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<v Speaker 4>but I was so happy you found that piece it's

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<v Speaker 4>for a local Madison outlet that had really great film

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<v Speaker 4>coverage called Tone, which unfortunately shuddered just this last year.

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<v Speaker 4>But it gave me the excuse to talk about this

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<v Speaker 4>movie when they were doing a special screening of it

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<v Speaker 4>in town alongside an art exhibit that went a lot

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<v Speaker 4>kind of thematically along with it.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I am.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm so delighted that you found it. I really delighted

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<v Speaker 4>to be here to talk about this movie that I

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<v Speaker 4>that I love, especially for Pride Month. I've been having

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<v Speaker 4>a Pride packed weekend, so this feels like a really

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<v Speaker 4>great way to top it off.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell us more about your relationship with this movie.

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<v Speaker 4>For sure, So I always think of you talking about

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<v Speaker 4>your great movie Binge, and I similarly had a great

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<v Speaker 4>movie Binge in when I first moved to Madison for

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<v Speaker 4>school in two thousand, I discovered a local gem called

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<v Speaker 4>four Star Video Heaven, which still exists.

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<v Speaker 2>We still have our friend Alex works. Yeah, yes, I

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<v Speaker 2>was gonna say, I was just I've spent two months

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<v Speaker 2>in Madison this year. I wish that if we'd met sooner.

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<v Speaker 2>I love Madison.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes it's a good town. And yeah, we still have

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<v Speaker 4>this brick and Mortar Video rental place, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Is feel shout out for us, so miraculous.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was bigger and it was like much more

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<v Speaker 4>of a central place. When I first moved here in

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand and I was like a little baby queer.

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<v Speaker 4>I was coming from Oklahoma, was where I'd been in

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<v Speaker 4>high school, and all we had there was a Blockbuster

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<v Speaker 4>where I would like, you know, rent movies in like

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<v Speaker 4>threes so that the one that was maybe a little

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<v Speaker 4>gay would be in the middle and hidden from the clerk,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, real classic. But I went to Forstar and

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<v Speaker 4>like most of the people who worked there were queer,

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<v Speaker 4>so they and they had this incredible selection, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>curated by the people who worked there, and I would

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<v Speaker 4>just go in and ask for like what do I

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<v Speaker 4>need to see in the queer cannon because I was

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<v Speaker 4>just so hungry for representation. And yeah, so Desert Hearts

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<v Speaker 4>eventually came along, and I don't remember where in this,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, there was some time when I was in

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<v Speaker 4>college in undergrad so between two thousand and two thousand

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<v Speaker 4>and four was the first time I saw it. And

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<v Speaker 4>it's funny, like, I feel like this movie has definitely

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<v Speaker 4>grown on me and revisiting it for this to join

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<v Speaker 4>you all today was really fun to just I think

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<v Speaker 4>I appreciate it a lot more on a lot more

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<v Speaker 4>levels having seen it more recently. I remember liking it,

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<v Speaker 4>but thinking it was a little cheesy and like, maybe

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<v Speaker 4>it just it didn't quite hit me in the same

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<v Speaker 4>way at the time because I was just watching so

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<v Speaker 4>much other queer media that had come out since all

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<v Speaker 4>at once, you know, so that comparison. But I did

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<v Speaker 4>think it was you know, it was really cool to

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<v Speaker 4>see something from the eighties that has what this movie

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<v Speaker 4>has in it. Yeah, and it stuck with me, and

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<v Speaker 4>I have sort of since become for a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>my friends who have come out later on or when

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<v Speaker 4>we're interested in queer cinema, like I'm a really big

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<v Speaker 4>nerd about let me recommend movies for you. So this

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<v Speaker 4>is one that I often recommend because I feel like

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<v Speaker 4>it still flies under the radar for a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 4>younger folks. It just doesn't come up as often. So

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<v Speaker 4>I frequently find myself recommending it and then getting a

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<v Speaker 4>chance to revisit it, and yeah, I just I was

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<v Speaker 4>really fun to watch and just see all these other

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<v Speaker 4>levels that I had. I had missed the first time around.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a lot here and I really adore it and

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<v Speaker 4>I'm really grateful that it exists.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's so much to talk about with them.

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<v Speaker 2>And I love how Corney it gets. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, oh man, it's it's just so it's so beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>I love I love a little bit of corn. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it is there.

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<v Speaker 4>It's exactly what it needs to be, is how I

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<v Speaker 4>feel about it at this.

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<v Speaker 3>Point, totally Jamie, what's your relationship with it?

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<v Speaker 2>Fairly recent? I this has been on my to watch

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<v Speaker 2>list forever, but I just hadn't yet watch it. I

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<v Speaker 2>really wish I had sat myself down or been sat

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<v Speaker 2>down to see it sooner. But I think that the again,

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<v Speaker 2>like the catalyst for watching this movie was and I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's part of why so for listeners if you're

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<v Speaker 2>a member of our Patreon aka Matreon, this was originally

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<v Speaker 2>the pole winner for our Divorce Bewery theme where I

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<v Speaker 2>just like, I've been so interested in divorce cinema and

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<v Speaker 2>like Desert Hearts is est here because the divorce is

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<v Speaker 2>very incidental, but also it's in Reno, so it's like

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<v Speaker 2>divorce is also the setting and it's just I got

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<v Speaker 2>very interested in divorce cinema after we covered The Women

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<v Speaker 2>with fellow Madison Luminary. Yeah, So after covering that, in

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<v Speaker 2>which in the last act of that movie there is

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<v Speaker 2>a Reno divorce ranch heavily featured, and it sort of

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<v Speaker 2>feels like a queer paradise as presented in The Women,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to learn more about them and see

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<v Speaker 2>more movies that take place in Reno, and Desert Hearts

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<v Speaker 2>is far and away the one that is recommended. So

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<v Speaker 2>I was in my divorce cinema bag when I watched this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just like I watched it earlier this year,

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<v Speaker 2>and just completely fell in love with it. I love

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<v Speaker 2>what a sweeping love story it is. I love that

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<v Speaker 2>it's like shot in Reno. The historical detail is so cool.

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<v Speaker 2>I love the performances, I love the music. It's just beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>I wish I had seen it years and years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm very grateful I saw it now and for

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<v Speaker 2>this viewing, also getting the chance to learn a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more about the work that it's based on and

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<v Speaker 2>the author, the original author, Jane Rule, so lots to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so excited. Yeah, Caitlyn what's your history? Well, as

0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:20.360
<v Speaker 3>the terminally straight person on the zoom call, I had

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<v Speaker 3>never seen it until a few days ago, nor was

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<v Speaker 3>it really on my radar, which I think is pretty

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<v Speaker 3>telling because a lot of my film knowledge comes from

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<v Speaker 3>my not one, but two degrees in film, including a

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<v Speaker 3>master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University.

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<v Speaker 4>I know you hate talking about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I hate bringing it up.

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<v Speaker 4>But it's big of you to mention it for us today.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much. But you know, I had a

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<v Speaker 3>classic like film school education, which focuses on, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>a certain type of film. And even though as we

0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 3>will talk about, this film is so monumental in so

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.840
<v Speaker 3>many ways, so revolutionary in so many ways, it gets

0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:09.800
<v Speaker 3>overlooked by your typical film history classes because that curriculum

0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:14.440
<v Speaker 3>and those books are largely written by cishett white men,

0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.680
<v Speaker 3>and unless you're taking specifically like a queer cinema class,

0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.120
<v Speaker 3>movies like this probably aren't going to be included in

0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.960
<v Speaker 3>the curriculum. So I just wasn't super aware of it.

0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.160
<v Speaker 3>But I've seen it three times now to prep for this,

0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.920
<v Speaker 3>one of them being with the director's audio commentary, which

0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:41.160
<v Speaker 3>is included on the Criterion channel yeah, So I've learned

0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 3>a lot and I'm so excited to talk about it.

0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 3>And with that, should we take a quick break and

0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 3>then come back for the recap.

0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:52.960
<v Speaker 4>Let's do it so as like a plan.

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:08.840
<v Speaker 3>So here's the recap for Desert Hearts. It's nineteen fifty nine.

0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 3>We meet Vivian Bell played by Helen Shaver. She's this

0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:19.400
<v Speaker 3>like straight laced English lit professor at Columbia University.

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:25.160
<v Speaker 2>She has five hundred thousand three piece suits that she

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 2>wears everywhere, and she's got a million Bobby pins in

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 2>her hair, and she's.

0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:32.719
<v Speaker 4>Just buttoned up as buttoned up can be.

0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:33.960
<v Speaker 3>Oh truly.

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.679
<v Speaker 2>She is the Wikipedia entry photograph for buttoned up. Yes.

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.440
<v Speaker 3>And she arrives by train in Reno, Nevada and is

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 3>greeted by Francis played by Audra Lindley, who takes Vivian

0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:55.200
<v Speaker 3>to a divorce ranch basically a place where women who

0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 3>are aiming to get divorced would live to establish residency

0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 3>in Reno because, as we talked about in the Women episode,

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.680
<v Speaker 3>the laws around divorce there were much more lax than

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 3>basically everywhere else in the US.

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:11.719
<v Speaker 4>It was a whole thing.

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I've got more history. It's so interesting because it's basically

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.720
<v Speaker 2>all gone now. And like, what I didn't know until

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>I took a weekend and just blacked out and learned

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:27.160
<v Speaker 2>everything I could about Reno is that without Reno, we

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 2>don't have Vegas, which makes more sense when you're like, oh,

0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Vegas is famous for quickie marriages, and that is partially

0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.880
<v Speaker 2>because Reno was where you could get divorced very quickly

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 2>and then you would go to Vegas and get married.

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 2>But for a long time, basically the Reno is the

0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.200
<v Speaker 2>way it is, or was because once, as we've been

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 2>talking about on the Matreon, once no fault divorce became

0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 2>more widely accessible from state to state between nineteen sixty

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.480
<v Speaker 2>nine and twenty ten. Never forget, no fault divorce didn't

0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 2>exist in New York until twenty ten, which we get

0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:09.720
<v Speaker 2>into in our c Yeah versus Kramer. So yeah, a

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of really weird straight divorces going on on the

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Matreon this month. But basically, Novada's economy was really bad.

0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 2>It is not going well, and so the two things

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.080
<v Speaker 2>that it developed lax laws around in order to beef

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 2>up its economy was divorce and gambling. And so Reno

0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 2>really was like the first example of a place that was,

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.920
<v Speaker 2>as we've talked about in the Women and many episodes

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.440
<v Speaker 2>now drawing in mostly middle to upper class white women

0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 2>to establish residency, get those quickie divorces and get out.

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>There's also a lot of really interesting history on I

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>think that most of the media we see is centered

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>on upper class white women getting divorces in Reno, and

0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Desert Hearts definitely included in that, but there was a

0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>diverse array of people getting these divorces. There was a

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.520
<v Speaker 2>great article I read I had to find it in

0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 2>an archive from an old issue of Ebony about black

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.080
<v Speaker 2>women getting divorces in Reno at this time and how

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.240
<v Speaker 2>there was a separate infrastructure because there were still segregation

0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 2>laws in place in Nevada at this time, but that

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 2>everyone was getting divorced. We usually only see privileged white

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>women getting divorced in Reno, but everyone was getting divorced

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and everyone looked so hot doing it. And Vegas basically

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 2>develops in response to how successful Reno was and sort

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.480
<v Speaker 2>of endured more. But like basically all of the infrastructure

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.560
<v Speaker 2>that exists in the state of Nevada has to do

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 2>with this, like divorce industry. They popped up in Reno.

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 2>It's so interesting. It doesn't exist in Reno anymore, but

0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>like that's why we have Vegas for better or for worse.

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I acourage people to read about this a little

0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 4>bit too. I was digging in and like the economy

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.480
<v Speaker 4>that sprung up in Reno on the divorce world was

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 4>really fascinating. Like these ranches, but just like you had

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.120
<v Speaker 4>male driver surfaces and like you know, guys that would

0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:09.880
<v Speaker 4>stay out with the women late at night. They had

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.960
<v Speaker 4>like special social clubs and like classes and activities that

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 4>you could take to cater to these women who were

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.840
<v Speaker 4>coming in. So it was a whole scene from what

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.679
<v Speaker 4>I can tell, which is delightful.

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.119
<v Speaker 2>It's like a sexy little camp. Yeah. I liked that

0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.640
<v Speaker 2>because I hadn't done a lot of research the first

0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 2>time I saw this, But like, I love how this

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.399
<v Speaker 2>movie sprinkles in those like history moments where it's the

0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 2>another woman staying at the ranch. Lucille Oh heavily alludes

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.720
<v Speaker 2>to having a rent a boyfriend while she's there, and

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just ooh, I love it so good.

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.160
<v Speaker 4>I have to really quickly interject because I'm a musician

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.159
<v Speaker 4>and I have to shout out the soundtrack in this

0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.600
<v Speaker 4>movie is incredible, and the opening track that you hear

0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.280
<v Speaker 4>is such a good launching point because it is a

0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.359
<v Speaker 4>song by Patsy Klein called if You've Got Levin on

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.280
<v Speaker 4>your Mind, and that's what she rolls into town on

0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.440
<v Speaker 4>the train on and it's just that moment. The music

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.199
<v Speaker 4>is just so good and it's such a you know,

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 4>it's that additional character in the movie.

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.880
<v Speaker 2>It's so good, it's so yeah that the soundtrack is immaculate.

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:14.639
<v Speaker 2>God is crazy playing when she's watching the horse. God,

0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 2>the horse is a lot. It's a lot. It's so

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 2>like it is corny, but it's so beautiful, so good.

0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 3>Also, Donna Ditch petitioned. I think it was the distribution company,

0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:32.960
<v Speaker 3>which was the Sam Goldwyn's whatever blah blah blah, to

0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.159
<v Speaker 3>obtain the rights to be able to release the soundtrack

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 3>as like a separate album to sell alongside the movie,

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:47.439
<v Speaker 3>and the distributor was like m pass because there are

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.240
<v Speaker 3>a asshole.

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.280
<v Speaker 4>Losers, a bunch of losers miss opportunity. Truly, truly, I

0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.840
<v Speaker 4>did find multiple people on the streaming service that I

0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 4>use who have created that playlist exactly so great.

0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 3>That's amazing. Okay, so point is Vivian bell is in town.

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:13.320
<v Speaker 3>She's in Reno, and she meets Francis and on the

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 3>way to the ranch that's like out in the middle

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 3>of the desert, Francis and Vivian encounter Kaye Rivers played

0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.760
<v Speaker 3>by Patricia Charbonneau, who like passes them on the road,

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 3>speeding down the highway in her like hot sexy convertible.

0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.560
<v Speaker 3>Then she throws the car in reverse and is driving

0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.920
<v Speaker 3>alongside them for a moment in reverse.

0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:41.080
<v Speaker 2>One of my favorite character introductions. It's so good. Maybe ever,

0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.120
<v Speaker 2>it's so good, it's so scary to watch.

0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 4>It's completely bonkers and unhinged, and it's such a perfect like.

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 3>This is that character. Oh, just in case you weren't sure,

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 3>she's a she's a wild child, she's a free spirit.

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Also, the most perfect hair I've ever seen.

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.000
<v Speaker 4>Oh my god, it's blowing in the wind. It's incredible,

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 4>how the feathered, very perfect, gorgeous.

0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.680
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't super familiar with either of these actors with same.

0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.400
<v Speaker 2>They were relatively unknown at the time.

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 3>But also and then still I feel like it still.

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well my impression and you might have dug into

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 4>this more, but some reading around it is. It was

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.280
<v Speaker 4>a huge risk for these actresses to take this role

0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.440
<v Speaker 4>at all, and I think there was some amount of blowback,

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.040
<v Speaker 4>like when you when you do this sort of role

0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 4>your It was actually, I think genuinely hard for them

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.639
<v Speaker 4>to get mainstream roles afterwards.

0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, very true. I saw the same one one

0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.600
<v Speaker 2>thing that I did I forgot. Friend of the show,

0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Annie Rawereda aka Depths of Wikipedia, alerted be to this

0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.919
<v Speaker 2>because she knows I love Desert Hearts. Helen Shaver, a

0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 2>few years after our Desert Hearts, plays Littlefoot's mother in

0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 2>the Land Before Time and right, so it's all connected

0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 2>and like it actually does. And also she's in the Craft.

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:03.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember who she is in the Craft.

0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I was trying to remember she was. I remember

0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.560
<v Speaker 4>the bit, and I can't remember who she was. She Also,

0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 4>she did, guess I think in two episodes of The

0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:12.840
<v Speaker 4>L Word in the original series, which I thought was

0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.399
<v Speaker 4>a really nice, nice like homage moment.

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's lovely. I don't know. Yeah, Patricia Scharpeneau,

0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I really saw her in very much.

0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm seeing that she was in all She's all that,

0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.760
<v Speaker 2>But every time I watched that movie and immediately leaves

0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:33.600
<v Speaker 2>my mind. So I maybe don't. I just don't know,

0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.400
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, I mean the I think that I was

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.240
<v Speaker 2>hearing Donna dit say in an interview that the most

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.560
<v Speaker 2>famous person in the movie at the time and maybe

0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.359
<v Speaker 2>still was Audre Lindley, who was known for being on

0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.399
<v Speaker 2>Three's Company at the time. She was like a famous

0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.120
<v Speaker 2>TV actor. I recognized her from our episode on Troop

0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Beverly Hills because she's in Troupe Beverly Hills and fun

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:03.840
<v Speaker 2>the fact about her her because Donna Ditch was, you know,

0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.120
<v Speaker 2>basically like raising money to finish this movie in real

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>time when she started it, she didn't yet have an editor,

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.440
<v Speaker 2>like it was very much like you know, laying bricks

0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.480
<v Speaker 2>right behind, like right in front of you as you're going.

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>And Audre Lindley, who had the successful TV career, became

0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 2>an investor in the movie when she realized that they

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.960
<v Speaker 2>were running low in money, so she really was like

0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.600
<v Speaker 2>a big part of why it happened. So it just

0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>seems like there was so much love on this. I

0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.879
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I just love seeing a great movie and

0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.800
<v Speaker 2>then also learning that everyone liked each other. And according

0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.360
<v Speaker 2>to Donna ditch. There was a lot of people fucking

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.800
<v Speaker 2>having a great time, and you do love to hear it.

0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I do loved it.

0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.320
<v Speaker 4>And she she like sold her house to finance this movie.

0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.760
<v Speaker 4>It was a real passion project. Yeah, yes, incredible.

0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Glad she did it.

0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:57.919
<v Speaker 4>We're all better for it. Yeah. I hope she eventually

0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:58.639
<v Speaker 4>got another house.

0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.000
<v Speaker 2>So it seems like she's I mean, we could talk

0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.920
<v Speaker 2>about gosh. I know, we're like two seconds into the movie.

0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 2>But she, like a lot of women director we've talked

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.960
<v Speaker 2>about recently, Donna d I mean, make no mistake, she

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.280
<v Speaker 2>is very much working. She has always been working. She

0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 2>was a documentary director before this, and she does direct

0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:27.399
<v Speaker 2>one other narrative movie after this, called Criminal Passion, which

0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.200
<v Speaker 2>I honestly don't know very much about. But I do

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.439
<v Speaker 2>notice this pattern of if women directors continue working after

0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:40.119
<v Speaker 2>their big movie, it is generally in television and like

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:45.159
<v Speaker 2>not again, just like, I find it quite interesting and

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:50.080
<v Speaker 2>suspicious that this oteur route just seems unavailable to women

0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:52.720
<v Speaker 2>and queer people so battling.

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.919
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't. I don't understand it.

0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:57.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just interesting.

0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:02.159
<v Speaker 3>Meanwhile, Christopher Nolan's first movie makes like eleven dollars and

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.000
<v Speaker 3>then they're like, here, make everything.

0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Time after time, and I'm and I'm not even knocking

0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:10.480
<v Speaker 2>him for that, and like everyone should get everyone's first movie,

0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.120
<v Speaker 2>should be allowed to make eleven dollars exactly and then

0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.560
<v Speaker 2>keep it pushing. But you know, the anyways worth mentioning

0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:22.080
<v Speaker 2>because it seems like she wants to or at one point,

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:23.960
<v Speaker 2>like ten years ago, she was like, I'm working on

0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.440
<v Speaker 2>a sequel that takes place in New York in the sixties,

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, I want that so bad.

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:30.600
<v Speaker 4>I want it.

0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:37.040
<v Speaker 3>Yes, all right, back to the story minute two of

0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 3>the movie.

0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:39.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm doing great.

0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:44.320
<v Speaker 3>So we've met Vivian. She is buttoned up. We've met Kay,

0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:49.000
<v Speaker 3>she is loosened up, and so the contrast between them

0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:54.800
<v Speaker 3>is palpable, as is the sexual tension. Okay, so Vivian

0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.840
<v Speaker 3>arrives at the ranch, she gets settled in, she has

0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:02.119
<v Speaker 3>a drink with Francis, who tells Vivian about her past,

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:04.840
<v Speaker 3>how she used to have a love of her own

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:10.960
<v Speaker 3>with this man named Glenn, who is Kay's father and

0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:15.760
<v Speaker 3>who was married at the time of Francis's affair with him.

0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.639
<v Speaker 3>So like she wasn't really Kay's stepmother or anything, but

0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 3>she still feels a lot of affection for Kay. Francis

0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 3>also has a son by Glenn, a young man named

0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:30.600
<v Speaker 3>Walter who we've met. He works at the ranch. He

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.320
<v Speaker 3>seems like a pleasant young man.

0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 2>He's a sweetie. I love when he's like, want a

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.920
<v Speaker 2>chick lit. I'm like, I like this guy, yep, yep.

0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 2>And also, I, just because I went weirdly defaid this

0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:46.880
<v Speaker 2>played via this actor named Alex MacArthur, who just feels

0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:50.720
<v Speaker 2>profoundly eighties based on these two facts about him. A

0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:55.840
<v Speaker 2>he plays the boyfriend in the Madonna Papa Don't Preach video.

0:25:56.600 --> 0:25:59.720
<v Speaker 2>She's keeping her baby and it's this guy's baby. And

0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:04.400
<v Speaker 2>also he was a bartender at Studio fifty four, And

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:05.720
<v Speaker 2>so I'm just like, oh, this.

0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:08.679
<v Speaker 4>All tracks so hard because I had to look him

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:10.680
<v Speaker 4>up because I felt like he looked really familiar. It's

0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:13.280
<v Speaker 4>probably the Papa Don't Preach video, which definitely holds a

0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:17.560
<v Speaker 4>place in my childhood obsession with Madonna. He kind of

0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.440
<v Speaker 4>looks like Jake Gillenhall, like he does yeah, like a

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:22.920
<v Speaker 4>little bit. But I was like, I didn't really recognize

0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:24.560
<v Speaker 4>a ton that he'd been in. But also he is

0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.120
<v Speaker 4>very attractive to me. Anyway, I was just like, he's

0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:28.800
<v Speaker 4>a very handsome young man, and so I'm like, yeah,

0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:31.960
<v Speaker 4>Studio fifty four and a Madonna Vie. I feel correct.

0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:36.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just a very eighties resume. Its beautiful, that's amazing.

0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:43.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay. So meanwhile we get more acquainted with Kay.

0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:48.320
<v Speaker 3>She works at a nearby casino. She lives at the ranch,

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:51.399
<v Speaker 3>although she is living there permanently, like she's not in

0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:53.919
<v Speaker 3>the middle of a divorce like everyone else. This is

0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:58.200
<v Speaker 3>just her permanent residence. And she's also seeing a guy

0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 3>named Daryl, who will learn more about eventually, but she

0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:05.680
<v Speaker 3>doesn't seem very thrilled to be with him.

0:27:05.760 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 2>Boo Darryl. Yeah.

0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:13.320
<v Speaker 3>One day, Vivian offers to bring Kay's mail to her cottage,

0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.359
<v Speaker 3>and Kay invites Vivian inside to like hang out and

0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:18.640
<v Speaker 3>look at her pottery.

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:20.880
<v Speaker 4>This is such a move. This is such a move.

0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.840
<v Speaker 2>Insets, do you want to come in? Oh?

0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:26.360
<v Speaker 4>The Georts?

0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:30.480
<v Speaker 2>The Georts Georts game is off the charts.

0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and there's a naked woman in Kay's bed, No

0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:41.119
<v Speaker 3>big deal. This is Gwen played by Gwen Wells, who

0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:44.480
<v Speaker 3>would later go on to become best friends with director

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:50.640
<v Speaker 3>Donna Ditch and Vivian sees her and is very taken aback.

0:27:50.840 --> 0:27:53.720
<v Speaker 3>She's clutching her pearls.

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 2>And she leaves.

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:58.440
<v Speaker 3>But now she knows, and we know the audience that

0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:01.480
<v Speaker 3>Kay is queer and pretty open about it.

0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:04.679
<v Speaker 4>I do love also that as Vivian is approaching the cottage,

0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 4>you see this like strapping young man ranch hand who's

0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:09.679
<v Speaker 4>like loading hay and he's clearly noticing her, and she

0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:13.119
<v Speaker 4>is not looking at him at all. And then as

0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.200
<v Speaker 4>she leaves, he makes this great comment to Kay about

0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:18.600
<v Speaker 4>I don't know how you get all this action without

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.920
<v Speaker 4>any equipment, and it's just like moving on away.

0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:25.920
<v Speaker 2>For this guy. And I love that. I like that too.

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it was great.

0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Okay. So sometime later, Ka offers Vivian a ride

0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:37.240
<v Speaker 3>into town for an appointment that Vivian has with a

0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:41.800
<v Speaker 3>divorce attorney. Gwen is also in the car, and the

0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:46.160
<v Speaker 3>whole situation is quite awkward for Vivian. And then when

0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Kay drops Vivian off at the lawyer's office, Ka offers

0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 3>to wait for her, but Vivian is being kind of

0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:57.560
<v Speaker 3>standoffish and cold and she says, no thanks, I'll find

0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 3>my own way back. And then at Vivian's meeting with

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.600
<v Speaker 3>the lawyer, he asks what are the grounds for her divorce,

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:09.880
<v Speaker 3>and she has trouble articulating it exactly, but basically she

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:12.800
<v Speaker 3>says that she longs for something she.

0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:14.040
<v Speaker 4>Doesn't yet have.

0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>What could it be? What could it be?

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 3>Then we learned that the Daryl guy that Kate has

0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 3>been seeing is her boss at the casino, who professes

0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 3>his love for her, but again, she doesn't want any

0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:33.640
<v Speaker 3>future with him. He seems to know that she has

0:29:33.720 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 3>relationships with women, and he says something like.

0:29:36.800 --> 0:29:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Giving her a hard pitch on a like a lavender marriage,

0:29:40.040 --> 0:29:43.440
<v Speaker 2>and she's like no.

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 3>She says, pass, I'm waiting for someone who counts. And

0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:49.160
<v Speaker 3>someone who counts is not this guy, Not this Tim

0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.200
<v Speaker 3>Heidecker looking ass dude.

0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.040
<v Speaker 2>He was like, yeah, flesh colored hair looking ass.

0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.480
<v Speaker 3>That night, Vivian runs into Kay in the kitchen and

0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.320
<v Speaker 3>they're trying to be covert to avoid Frances coming in

0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:06.320
<v Speaker 3>and like talking their ear off, but then Kay spills

0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:10.720
<v Speaker 3>something and they're giggling and vibing and it's really cute.

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:12.200
<v Speaker 4>I'm trying to figure out what the heck k is

0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:13.479
<v Speaker 4>even doing in the middle of the night with like

0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:16.800
<v Speaker 4>a whole thing of like cream and Bulbert and yeah,

0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:18.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, I don't know what's going on there.

0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.959
<v Speaker 2>I feel like they must have dropped to a scene

0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:25.959
<v Speaker 2>or something. I was like, what is she up to exactly?

0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:27.320
<v Speaker 3>She's feeling snacky.

0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they snacked

0:30:30.400 --> 0:30:32.240
<v Speaker 4>on in late fifties, but that seemed like a lot

0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:33.200
<v Speaker 4>for the middle of the night.

0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 2>A lot of dairy for that late in the day, truly.

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:40.880
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, Francis hears them and asks Kay to bring

0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.320
<v Speaker 3>her a drink, and Francis is kind of in the

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:46.920
<v Speaker 3>middle of a meltdown. She has always latched on to

0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:51.000
<v Speaker 3>Kay because Kay and her son Walter are all that

0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:58.479
<v Speaker 3>frances has of her past lover Glenn. Clearly, she's you know,

0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:04.480
<v Speaker 3>lonely and grieving Glenn because he passed away. And Kay says, well,

0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 3>one of these days I'm gonna find someone who counts.

0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 3>And sorry, Francis, but you can't stand in my way,

0:31:12.160 --> 0:31:15.280
<v Speaker 3>because it seems like Francis knows that Kay has sex

0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.959
<v Speaker 3>with women and she doesn't approve of it, but she

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:22.920
<v Speaker 3>seems to like tolerate it. And then Kay returns to

0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:26.080
<v Speaker 3>the kitchen to see if Vivian is still there and

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:31.719
<v Speaker 3>seems disappointed that she isn't. The next morning, Kay asks

0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Vivian to go horseback riding with her, and they do,

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:40.240
<v Speaker 3>and they talk about why Vivian's marriage fell apart, their

0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:44.400
<v Speaker 3>plans and ambitions, and that seems like they're really hitting

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:44.880
<v Speaker 3>it off.

0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:46.640
<v Speaker 4>I said, I want to note that they're not actually

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:50.120
<v Speaker 4>riding the horses. They know they are awkwardly walking them

0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:51.600
<v Speaker 4>through the brush.

0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:55.560
<v Speaker 3>So, according to the audio commentary, Donna Ditsch says that

0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:59.440
<v Speaker 3>she's like, I love looking at horses faces as much

0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 3>as human faces. So to have them both at the staate,

0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:06.040
<v Speaker 3>like at eye level, because if they're up on the horse,

0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:09.360
<v Speaker 3>you can't see the horses faces us. It's like a

0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 3>really long, really wide shot.

0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:14.320
<v Speaker 4>That is the gayest horse girl thing I've ever heard.

0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I respect her commitment to the horse girl Again, I actually,

0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.080
<v Speaker 2>controversially do not want to be that close to a

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:27.240
<v Speaker 2>horse's face. That's that's frightening to me.

0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Fair.

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I know I've talked about this on the show a

0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>million times. So when I went to horse camp when

0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>I was a kid, they they made us watch the

0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:38.880
<v Speaker 2>horse get a dental procedure, and I've never watched Wait, no,

0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:42.400
<v Speaker 2>I forgot about this. I don't know why. At Jesus

0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Horse Camp in New Hampshire, they make you watch the

0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:48.600
<v Speaker 2>horse get a dental procedure. Maybe it wasn't everyone, but

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:52.480
<v Speaker 2>it was definitely my year. We watched the horses get

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's so scary. It's like you have to the

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 2>teeth are too big. They have to like jackhammer the teeth.

0:32:57.280 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 2>It's scary.

0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.520
<v Speaker 4>Wow, yeah, that would that would make depression.

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>You just once you know what's in the horse's head,

0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:06.080
<v Speaker 2>it's just hard. It's just hard to get close like that.

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:11.760
<v Speaker 3>We're going back, so we see Vivian and Kay hitting

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.719
<v Speaker 3>it off near the horse's faces. Then we cut to

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 3>Kay telling her friend and colleague Silver that she thinks

0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:25.240
<v Speaker 3>that she has found someone who counts love Silver.

0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:28.840
<v Speaker 4>Silver is the best. Yeah, yeah, big fan.

0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:29.240
<v Speaker 2>She's the best.

0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:30.000
<v Speaker 3>Silver Rocks.

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Take baths with your friends also, yes, take baths with

0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:35.200
<v Speaker 2>your friends. Truly.

0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 4>Have a bathtub big enough to fit two people in

0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:38.680
<v Speaker 4>it in the first place.

0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:42.800
<v Speaker 3>A drink ideally, and then have your your man fiance

0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:44.280
<v Speaker 3>serve you drinks.

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:46.480
<v Speaker 4>I oh he was so good too.

0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:48.760
<v Speaker 2>I like that. I like them both a lot. I was.

0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I was so happy for Silver because even though we

0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 2>don't get a ton of background. And in the book,

0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 2>Silver and Kay who is and in the book like

0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:01.360
<v Speaker 2>casually hook up from time to time, they.

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:02.920
<v Speaker 4>Do kiss on the mouth. In the movie, that was

0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:03.720
<v Speaker 4>the vibe I got.

0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, like they're they've they've hooked up before, but

0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:13.000
<v Speaker 2>they're ultimately best friends. And I just I loved, Like

0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:15.719
<v Speaker 2>you just get the feeling that Silver has been through

0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:17.879
<v Speaker 2>a lot of shit and that she found someone who

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.759
<v Speaker 2>can like actually meet her where she's at is so beautiful.

0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:26.080
<v Speaker 2>It's really beautiful. Yes, I know, so yeah.

0:34:26.280 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 3>Ka tells Silver that she has found someone who counts

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:35.280
<v Speaker 3>aka Vivian, but Silver warns k that Vivian is only

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 3>here temporarily, just long enough to see her divorce through

0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:44.319
<v Speaker 3>and then she's off to return to New York. Then

0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:49.319
<v Speaker 3>Kay and Vivian go clothes shopping together. They're hanging out

0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:53.520
<v Speaker 3>at a casino. They're they're just again continuing to vibe

0:34:53.520 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 3>and have a nice time, and everyone who senses what's

0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 3>going on between them keeps saying that Vivian and Ka

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:02.919
<v Speaker 3>have nothing in common. It's never going to work out.

0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:06.840
<v Speaker 3>This woman, Lucille tells Vivian to stay away from k

0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 3>because she's queer, but like using the term pejoratively. But

0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:16.799
<v Speaker 3>Vivian is basically like, I don't care, fuck off Lucille,

0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:21.160
<v Speaker 3>but in a very like polite and academic way, which.

0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Is a very like style.

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:27.800
<v Speaker 4>Kind of cutting New England y, a little passive, aggressive, condescending.

0:35:28.680 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 2>I do, I do love how I don't know. I

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.560
<v Speaker 2>would just not want to be on on her bad side,

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:40.279
<v Speaker 2>like Vivian Is can go ice cold in this space

0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.279
<v Speaker 2>of an instant if you disrespect her, girl, and I

0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:47.480
<v Speaker 2>think that that is beautiful and vice versa. Oh my god,

0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.040
<v Speaker 2>when she shuts Francis down, when Frances tries to talk

0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.799
<v Speaker 2>shit about k behind her back, and Vivian's like, I

0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 2>have to go good night. I'm tired. I've seen this,

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:57.840
<v Speaker 2>I've seen this movie before. Yeah. I was like, oh,

0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:00.600
<v Speaker 2>I love her. Okay.

0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:05.400
<v Speaker 3>So then we see some more moments of longing between

0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:10.360
<v Speaker 3>Kay and Vivian, where Kay is being pretty overt about

0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.960
<v Speaker 3>it as is her style, and Vivian is being very

0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:19.839
<v Speaker 3>like suppressive about it as his her style. Then at

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 3>breakfast one morning, everyone is talking about Silver and her

0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:27.560
<v Speaker 3>fiance Joe's engagement party that's happening that night, and Vivian

0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 3>says that she's not going because she has lectures to

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:36.080
<v Speaker 3>prepare for her upcoming classes, and then Kay like stands

0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 3>up and makes a scene and she's like, I want

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.399
<v Speaker 3>you to come to the party, and then she storms.

0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:43.359
<v Speaker 4>Out, which a friend of mine compared to how her

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:47.720
<v Speaker 4>eight year old acts by the way, Kay's is very wilful.

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:50.400
<v Speaker 4>ITA's like, yes, I know she's standing up for what

0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:53.320
<v Speaker 4>she wants, but like sometimes it's very like it's a

0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:53.919
<v Speaker 4>little much.

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:58.560
<v Speaker 2>It feels very like in your early mid twenties that

0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.560
<v Speaker 2>Kay is. And it does speak to like the more

0:37:01.680 --> 0:37:04.319
<v Speaker 2>like Corneier aspects of the movie that sometimes she does

0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:08.319
<v Speaker 2>just make a speech before leaving the room where she's like,

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:10.440
<v Speaker 2>I no one's getting get in the way of my

0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:13.400
<v Speaker 2>life and be like leaves. It happens like three or

0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:16.080
<v Speaker 2>four times. I'm like, yeah, exactly did I do that

0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:17.120
<v Speaker 2>when I was twenty five?

0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:22.440
<v Speaker 3>Probably yeah, same, yeah, same, Okay. So it seems like

0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:26.680
<v Speaker 3>Francis doesn't want Vivian going to the party if it

0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:30.280
<v Speaker 3>means that she'll be hanging out with Ka there, and

0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:36.160
<v Speaker 3>Vivian asks Walter why Francis resents Kay for being friendly

0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:41.120
<v Speaker 3>to Vivian, and it seems like Francis doesn't want Kay

0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 3>to leave her again. She's lonely, She's desperately missing her

0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:50.279
<v Speaker 3>former lover Glenn. At some point, she tells Kay that

0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:54.360
<v Speaker 3>Glenn reached in and put a string of lights around

0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:54.880
<v Speaker 3>her heart.

0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:55.880
<v Speaker 4>No.

0:37:56.560 --> 0:38:00.719
<v Speaker 3>Then we cut to this engagement party. Vivian decides to

0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:04.080
<v Speaker 3>go after all, and she and Kay are making eyes

0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 3>at each other. And then after the party, they drive

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.719
<v Speaker 3>out into the desert and they're strolling around as the

0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:16.960
<v Speaker 3>sun comes up. Kay tells her that she likes women,

0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 3>and Vivian is like, oh, no, do you like me?

0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 3>I hope I haven't misled you in any way because

0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:27.640
<v Speaker 3>I care about you, But I'm not, And.

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Then she runs away. She sprints away.

0:38:30.719 --> 0:38:33.640
<v Speaker 3>She gets she gets interrupted by a crash of thunder

0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:35.040
<v Speaker 3>and a downpour of rain.

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:36.480
<v Speaker 2>She runs to.

0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:40.480
<v Speaker 3>The car and Kay follows her and through a rolled

0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:45.680
<v Speaker 3>down window, they kiss, but then Vivian pulls away because

0:38:45.680 --> 0:38:46.799
<v Speaker 3>she's uncomfortable.

0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:48.680
<v Speaker 4>Oh but where does she learn to kiss like that?

0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:51.400
<v Speaker 4>What a scene?

0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:53.600
<v Speaker 2>What a scene? Love it.

0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:57.759
<v Speaker 3>Then they return to the ranch to discover that Francis

0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:02.279
<v Speaker 3>has decided to kick Vivian out because Vivian and Kay

0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:05.120
<v Speaker 3>left the party. Together, and they stayed out all night

0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:07.799
<v Speaker 3>and people started talking about what they must be up

0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:13.480
<v Speaker 3>to and Francis can't have that, and Vivian is like, okay, fine, bye, bitch,

0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:13.960
<v Speaker 3>I'll leave.

0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:18.160
<v Speaker 4>I'm really annoyed that she doesn't get her refund check, though,

0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.600
<v Speaker 4>because Kay throws it on the ground and then she

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:24.520
<v Speaker 4>never picks it up right.

0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 3>And then she is once again being pretty cold and

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:33.120
<v Speaker 3>stand offish to Kay as Vivian leaves, and now Kay

0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 3>is furious at Francis for trying to interfere in her life.

0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:40.960
<v Speaker 3>She tells her she's moving off the ranch. Meanwhile, Vivian

0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:46.160
<v Speaker 3>has checked into a nearby casino slash hotel. She's not

0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:51.160
<v Speaker 3>doing great. Kay is not doing great. And then sometime later,

0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:55.800
<v Speaker 3>Kay pays Vivian a visit in her hotel room. Vivian

0:39:55.880 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 3>reluctantly lets her in and Kay is like, so weakest,

0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.400
<v Speaker 3>let's talk about it. And Vivian is like, ar kiss

0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:08.239
<v Speaker 3>was me having a momentary lapse in judgment and it's

0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:11.040
<v Speaker 3>not gonna happen again. I'm a respected scholar.

0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:14.440
<v Speaker 2>She iconically. I was like, wow, if this isn't me,

0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.520
<v Speaker 2>when I retire, I will simply write a short story.

0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:18.480
<v Speaker 2>For my revenge.

0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:21.759
<v Speaker 4>I was like, oh, I lost my mind. I had

0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:24.360
<v Speaker 4>forgotten that bit and I was rewatching this with friends

0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:25.799
<v Speaker 4>and yeah, we were all just like, oh my god,

0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:27.480
<v Speaker 4>the most waspy.

0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:29.959
<v Speaker 2>Like revenge you're gonna imagine.

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:33.319
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna wait thirty years simmering of resentment, and then

0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:36.000
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna write a nasty short story about how mean

0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:38.320
<v Speaker 4>you were to me, and that's my revenge.

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 2>And you'll all definitely be alive and reading literary journals

0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:49.040
<v Speaker 2>to watch me get you. Incredible, Such a good character line.

0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 2>I loved it. Oh, it's perfect, It's amazing.

0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:59.560
<v Speaker 3>And so Vivian is protesting and goes to make herself

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.800
<v Speaker 3>a drink and then when she comes back into the room,

0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 3>Kay is in her bed naked.

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:10.920
<v Speaker 4>It is the fastest undressing you could buy. Like the

0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:13.880
<v Speaker 4>time it takes for her for Vivian to turn around,

0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:16.120
<v Speaker 4>say her piece about the short story and then turn

0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:19.960
<v Speaker 4>back is like a Kay had to start undressing immediately?

0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:25.160
<v Speaker 2>Would she she needed like Lightning mc queen's pit crew

0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:26.760
<v Speaker 2>to get undressed that quickly?

0:41:27.520 --> 0:41:28.680
<v Speaker 4>She was motivated.

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:31.319
<v Speaker 3>I wish I had been paying more attention to what

0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:34.080
<v Speaker 3>she was wearing when she came in because like, it's

0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:35.000
<v Speaker 3>one thing if you have.

0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:38.799
<v Speaker 4>Like were there buttons, and God, were everything she wore

0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.560
<v Speaker 4>had buttons on it. It's all complicated late fifties stuff.

0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:43.919
<v Speaker 4>There's no T shirts here, so it would have taken

0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:48.440
<v Speaker 4>some work to get undressed, well into bed, set up

0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:51.279
<v Speaker 4>all pretty with you with your boobs out. But that

0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:52.120
<v Speaker 4>takes work.

0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:56.720
<v Speaker 2>And very particularly just like a production note, I believe

0:41:56.760 --> 0:42:00.279
<v Speaker 2>that Patricia Sharpeneau is using a body double for much

0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:03.280
<v Speaker 2>of this scene, partially because that was in her contracted

0:42:03.320 --> 0:42:07.040
<v Speaker 2>partially because she was pregnant during the production of this spoofie.

0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:10.360
<v Speaker 2>She found out she was pregnant right as they began shooting. Wow,

0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I just I don't know why that is like always

0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:16.880
<v Speaker 2>fun to be like, Oh, it tastefully placed blanket, the

0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:18.120
<v Speaker 2>tits are out.

0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:21.359
<v Speaker 3>I mean, she wouldn't have been that far into her

0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 3>pregnancy though by that point she wouldn't have I don't

0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:25.880
<v Speaker 3>think she even would have been showing that much, if any,

0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:26.800
<v Speaker 3>but probably not.

0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:28.280
<v Speaker 4>But you know, it could still just be a comfort

0:42:28.280 --> 0:42:30.399
<v Speaker 4>thing or yeah, if it was in her contract. But yes,

0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:32.600
<v Speaker 4>it is a very artfully placed blanket right below.

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:40.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yes, indeed, so she's naked. She got undressed super fast.

0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:43.520
<v Speaker 3>I mean, as we've said, she's wearing her buttons loose

0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:47.760
<v Speaker 3>pussy cat doll's style. She's loosening up her buttons. Baby.

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so did not see that coming.

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:54.880
<v Speaker 4>That was yeah, good reference, Thank.

0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:55.560
<v Speaker 2>You so much.

0:42:56.400 --> 0:43:01.600
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, so she's naked now, and Vivian is like, I

0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:03.640
<v Speaker 3>want you to put your clothes on and leave, and

0:43:03.760 --> 0:43:08.040
<v Speaker 3>Ka is like, no, you don't. And Vivian is like, okay,

0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:10.520
<v Speaker 3>you're right, but I don't even know what to do.

0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:12.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't know how to have sex with a woman.

0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:15.680
<v Speaker 3>And Kay is like, don't worry, I won't be your guide.

0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:21.279
<v Speaker 3>And they start kissing. It gets hotter and heavier, and

0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:24.920
<v Speaker 3>they have sex for what seems like hours because eventually

0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.360
<v Speaker 3>Kay is like, we need to like leave this room.

0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Go.

0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:33.239
<v Speaker 4>It is something the classic like queer sapphic sex k

0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:36.000
<v Speaker 4>hole that you go into when you woke up with someone.

0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:39.160
<v Speaker 4>It's it feels very accurate. You just lose track of

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:41.080
<v Speaker 4>time and space for goodie days.

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.799
<v Speaker 2>This is the only and I did we'll talk about

0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.799
<v Speaker 2>because there was like a difference of opinion when this

0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:51.720
<v Speaker 2>movie first came out about how the sex scene was staged. Yeah,

0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:53.680
<v Speaker 2>but it did crack me up. I think this is

0:43:53.680 --> 0:43:57.080
<v Speaker 2>the only example I can think of of sex scene

0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.880
<v Speaker 2>fading to black and then fading up to kind of

0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:03.880
<v Speaker 2>still a yeah, just kind of just like later in

0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:04.960
<v Speaker 2>the day. Right.

0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.920
<v Speaker 4>Can we just also talk real quick about how incredible

0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:12.200
<v Speaker 4>this would have been to see, especially as like a

0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:14.759
<v Speaker 4>lesbian or you know, the queer person at.

0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:16.759
<v Speaker 2>The time, like that only imagine.

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:19.680
<v Speaker 4>I know there were like some lesbians who had issues

0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:21.920
<v Speaker 4>with it, felt like the dynamic of the characters was

0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:24.319
<v Speaker 4>too heterosexual in some ways. But I feel like this scene.

0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:27.040
<v Speaker 4>I think it's beautiful. I think it's beautifully shot. I

0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:30.400
<v Speaker 4>think there's this wonderful moment where Vivian basically flips her

0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:32.840
<v Speaker 4>over and is on top, kind of like taking charge

0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:34.880
<v Speaker 4>and like showing that she really wants this, which is

0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:38.880
<v Speaker 4>really important. But just seeing a sex scene between two

0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.919
<v Speaker 4>women filmed by a gay woman, not for the male

0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:45.879
<v Speaker 4>gaze on screen at all, you know, like a positive light.

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:48.640
<v Speaker 4>I don't know what would have come before this at

0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:51.640
<v Speaker 4>all in any sort of bigly mainstream cinema, so it

0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:54.440
<v Speaker 4>would have been just absolutely nothing. This is why Jane Lynch,

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:56.359
<v Speaker 4>you know, not just for the scene, but I mean,

0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.280
<v Speaker 4>this is why Jan Lynch must have watched it fifty times,

0:44:58.320 --> 0:44:59.120
<v Speaker 4>like it's a.

0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:06.080
<v Speaker 2>Huge deal, huge deal totally. Yeah, Jane Lynch concurs based

0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:07.360
<v Speaker 2>on my research.

0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:11.759
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, I mean again, this was a revolutionary film.

0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:16.239
<v Speaker 3>It's considered the first feature film to present a positive

0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:21.000
<v Speaker 3>and like desensationalized portrayal of a lesbian romance. It's the

0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:24.800
<v Speaker 3>first lesbian themed feature film written and directed by a woman,

0:45:24.960 --> 0:45:28.359
<v Speaker 3>because ones prior to that had been made by men.

0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 2>And I did like to hear and again, I'm just like,

0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:39.719
<v Speaker 2>this is why women should direct all movies. Even though

0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:42.600
<v Speaker 2>you know it's nineteen eighty five, intimacy coordinators have not

0:45:42.719 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 2>yet been normalized. Weird that has only happened in the

0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>last five to ten years, really, But that there was

0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:52.560
<v Speaker 2>care taken in the sex scene. There's information about and

0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Kitlin I don't know if she like talks about it

0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:58.759
<v Speaker 2>during the commentary as well. But everyone who was not

0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>essential to being the room was gone. It was just

0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the director of photography, the boom operator and the actors

0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:10.319
<v Speaker 2>and Donna Ditch, which is how that should be. And ye,

0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:15.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's so wild. How far into movie history,

0:46:15.400 --> 0:46:20.600
<v Speaker 2>like including recent history, that like that care is not

0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:24.000
<v Speaker 2>taken and there's still really not of time industry standards

0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:25.320
<v Speaker 2>around it, so I was also I don't know it

0:46:25.400 --> 0:46:27.799
<v Speaker 2>just again, it's like so nice to know that a

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:30.680
<v Speaker 2>wonderful movie was also ethically made, I think, especially because

0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 2>we're coming off of the Kramer Versus Kramer episode, which

0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>sounds like it nearly killed Meryl Street.

0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Dustin Hoffman was such a piece.

0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Of shit, really flexing his history's great at monster muscles

0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:47.200
<v Speaker 2>in that one. But yeah, I just I really appreciated

0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:49.759
<v Speaker 2>that that like production detail as well.

0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:53.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I feel like I read something too that

0:46:53.200 --> 0:46:55.440
<v Speaker 4>I mean, again, for these actresses taking this role, it

0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 4>is kind of a big deal, and I think the

0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:01.400
<v Speaker 4>Helen Shaver talked about she's sort of trembling initially in

0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:03.520
<v Speaker 4>that She's like, I was kind of real because I

0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:05.239
<v Speaker 4>was really nervous to do this scene and it was

0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:08.040
<v Speaker 4>a big deal and it was a bit nerve wracking.

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:09.719
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, I'm also glad to hear at least the

0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:13.719
<v Speaker 4>setup and the scene was pretty private and comfortable.

0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:14.920
<v Speaker 2>With the director because that's it.

0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:17.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you just always want that, and I think it

0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:21.000
<v Speaker 4>really comes across in the scene, like in the acting

0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:22.479
<v Speaker 4>and in the scene you could always get a sense

0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:24.799
<v Speaker 4>when it's almost always can get that sense of like

0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.440
<v Speaker 4>there was a healthy environment on set, like yeah, feeling okay,

0:47:28.760 --> 0:47:31.279
<v Speaker 4>like supported and safe, and it really comes through and

0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:32.640
<v Speaker 4>it makes it makes a big difference.

0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Sure it does, it does. Yeah.

0:47:35.360 --> 0:47:40.920
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, they've been having sex for hours and they eventually

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:43.840
<v Speaker 3>leave to go to a bar or restaurant or something

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:48.319
<v Speaker 3>where they have a little chat. They say that they

0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:52.000
<v Speaker 3>love each other. But Vivian is freaking out this whole time.

0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:56.319
<v Speaker 3>She's feeling exposed. She's worried about her future and her reputation.

0:47:57.360 --> 0:48:00.200
<v Speaker 3>What if the university and her students find out that

0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:03.640
<v Speaker 3>she's having an affair with a woman one who's ten

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:07.200
<v Speaker 3>years younger than her no less, so her career is

0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:11.920
<v Speaker 3>potentially in jeopardy. And this discussion turns into an argument

0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:14.920
<v Speaker 3>and they're about to storm away from each other, but

0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:18.160
<v Speaker 3>then they very quickly make up, and we cut to

0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:22.680
<v Speaker 3>them nakedly embracing in the hotel room again.

0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:25.680
<v Speaker 4>And a beautiful shot the lighting and the silhouette and

0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:28.759
<v Speaker 4>the lights from the Reno street. Like that shot and

0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:30.640
<v Speaker 4>also the shot of them when they're making up. I

0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:33.399
<v Speaker 4>really love that it's at a distance, they're getting into

0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:35.560
<v Speaker 4>the car together, and it's this lovely beautiful shot and

0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:37.640
<v Speaker 4>like we don't see the moment they have together when

0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:39.360
<v Speaker 4>it happens. You just kind of see them at a remove,

0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:41.440
<v Speaker 4>and I think that's I think that was really beautiful.

0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:45.040
<v Speaker 3>I also, I mean I love their argument too, weirdly enough,

0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:49.720
<v Speaker 3>where like, yeah, absolutely, they're like talking as adults, They're

0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:54.080
<v Speaker 3>like freely expressing their concerns, and then at one point

0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:57.360
<v Speaker 3>Vivian is like, does it always unravel this quickly? Like

0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:00.200
<v Speaker 3>almost like providing commentary on the fight that they're having,

0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.880
<v Speaker 3>and then Kay says, comes with the territory.

0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:07.640
<v Speaker 2>It's such a good I agree that, Like it is

0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:12.680
<v Speaker 2>a really good argument, especially coming from like two queer

0:49:12.760 --> 0:49:15.520
<v Speaker 2>women at like a different stages of their lives too,

0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:21.200
<v Speaker 2>where it's I don't know, Vivian is so thoughtfully characterized

0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:24.720
<v Speaker 2>that it's like, I like that the movie doesn't bonk

0:49:24.760 --> 0:49:27.120
<v Speaker 2>you over the head with period specific details, but like

0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.719
<v Speaker 2>this is still a time where being out or being

0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:33.640
<v Speaker 2>anything but straight was considered a mental illness and would

0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:37.520
<v Speaker 2>like absolutely ruin your life. It wasn't just cultural stigma.

0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:40.680
<v Speaker 2>There was still like significant legal stigma. And you know

0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:44.239
<v Speaker 2>that Kay is able to sort of be out sort

0:49:44.239 --> 0:49:47.080
<v Speaker 2>of not. But the reason that that's true is because

0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 2>her options are so limited and that like it feels

0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:52.960
<v Speaker 2>like you have to make a choice between pursuing your

0:49:53.000 --> 0:49:56.160
<v Speaker 2>passion or not because of all the stigma. And I

0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:58.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I just felt like that was all encapsulated

0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:01.240
<v Speaker 2>in that argument without them having to state it, because

0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:04.719
<v Speaker 2>their relationship is so real. And then also just the

0:50:04.840 --> 0:50:07.239
<v Speaker 2>like twenty five year old talking to a thirty five

0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:10.440
<v Speaker 2>year old where there are certain moments whereas ever, like

0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:12.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, you could feel Vivia kind of holding back

0:50:12.800 --> 0:50:15.239
<v Speaker 2>of like all right, all right, get it out of

0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:15.800
<v Speaker 2>your system.

0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:20.239
<v Speaker 4>But I mean, I'm glad you brought that up too,

0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:22.719
<v Speaker 4>because I think something I've come across, like I've had

0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:24.839
<v Speaker 4>to learn a lot of my own queer history coming

0:50:24.920 --> 0:50:27.160
<v Speaker 4>up when I did. But just I think, especially younger

0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:30.400
<v Speaker 4>people watching this, I hope they dig into the context

0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:32.680
<v Speaker 4>because I think it is important to understand what was

0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.000
<v Speaker 4>happening at the time. Like you know, same sex attraction

0:50:35.200 --> 0:50:38.960
<v Speaker 4>wasn't removed from the mental health classification until nineteen seventy three. Like,

0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:41.560
<v Speaker 4>you would absolutely be fired from your job, You would

0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:43.960
<v Speaker 4>absolutely lose your career, You could be kicked out of housing,

0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:46.760
<v Speaker 4>you could be thrown into an institution. All these things

0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:51.120
<v Speaker 4>that were happening up until fairly recently looming large over

0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:53.319
<v Speaker 4>this entire scenario. Yeah, and I think this is a

0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:56.200
<v Speaker 4>I'll just agree, like the conversation, this argument is such

0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:58.560
<v Speaker 4>a great without hitting you over the head and being

0:50:58.600 --> 0:51:00.920
<v Speaker 4>really obvious about it, it's such a this is this

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:01.439
<v Speaker 4>is what they.

0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Were dealing with.

0:51:01.960 --> 0:51:05.000
<v Speaker 4>This would be very realistic to that time, not just

0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:07.960
<v Speaker 4>the age gap, but just the Vivian has a career,

0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:13.600
<v Speaker 4>she has this whole life, whereas Kay's making pottery and

0:51:14.280 --> 0:51:16.360
<v Speaker 4>on her her what she calls her hideout. You know,

0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:18.880
<v Speaker 4>she's sort of this like swaggering Western figure in some

0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.279
<v Speaker 4>ways and like a little freer, but like you said,

0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:22.240
<v Speaker 4>with limited options.

0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:23.919
<v Speaker 2>So totally, Yeah, it's great.

0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:25.200
<v Speaker 4>I really appreciate that.

0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:26.359
<v Speaker 2>There's also an.

0:51:26.239 --> 0:51:30.960
<v Speaker 3>Interesting power dynamic between them, because while Vivian is ten

0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:36.160
<v Speaker 3>years older and has more just like life experience and

0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:41.759
<v Speaker 3>maturity under her belt career, that Kay is far more

0:51:41.800 --> 0:51:45.920
<v Speaker 3>experienced and just like having queer relationships and having sex

0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:51.560
<v Speaker 3>with women versus this is Vivian's first time with anything

0:51:51.840 --> 0:51:55.839
<v Speaker 3>like that. We are to assume, so Vivian is out

0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:59.000
<v Speaker 3>of her element in that regard, which sort of offsets

0:51:59.040 --> 0:52:02.360
<v Speaker 3>the power dynamic of Vivian being quite a bit older

0:52:02.400 --> 0:52:03.120
<v Speaker 3>than K.

0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.719
<v Speaker 2>I feel, right, and it's like power as I or

0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:09.640
<v Speaker 2>at least I think in this relationship, almost as a

0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:12.359
<v Speaker 2>neutral term, because I don't think that either of them

0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.680
<v Speaker 2>abuses the power that they have over each other, right,

0:52:15.760 --> 0:52:20.200
<v Speaker 2>which is rare to see and like any kind of relationship.

0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:24.319
<v Speaker 2>But I also like noticed that we're they do at

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:26.920
<v Speaker 2>different points. I think the K like has quite a

0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:31.160
<v Speaker 2>bit of power in this relationship. But even if it's

0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:34.680
<v Speaker 2>not like explicitly discussed. I think even especially prior to

0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the sex scene where Vivian is like so unsure of herself,

0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.759
<v Speaker 2>she is like, I don't know how to I don't

0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:48.400
<v Speaker 2>know how to end K He's like, I do all good,

0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Like let's you know. I just I think it's really

0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:57.520
<v Speaker 2>lovely that they're able to just communicate, you know, and

0:52:57.560 --> 0:52:59.920
<v Speaker 2>that no one is like lording the power they have

0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:05.600
<v Speaker 2>over the other, which is how a healthy relationship should work. Yeah.

0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:07.560
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think the interesting too to think about some

0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:10.520
<v Speaker 4>of the criticisms that came out of particularly the lesbian community,

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:12.680
<v Speaker 4>when this movie came out was like, oh, you know,

0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:16.760
<v Speaker 4>Kas this like dominating, you know, sort of masculine figure

0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.840
<v Speaker 4>to Vivian's more like submissive, you know whatever. And I'm like,

0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:20.839
<v Speaker 4>I don't read it that.

0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:21.279
<v Speaker 2>Way at all.

0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:23.840
<v Speaker 4>But I think that was sort of a big conversation

0:53:23.920 --> 0:53:26.160
<v Speaker 4>happening in the community at the time in the eighties

0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:29.080
<v Speaker 4>is sort of getting away from the original quote unquote

0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:33.120
<v Speaker 4>original bushfem dynamics in queer women community and sort of

0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:35.400
<v Speaker 4>trying to like, hey, actually, we don't want to just

0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:40.200
<v Speaker 4>replicate heterosexual patriarchal relationships, which is a good and important

0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.840
<v Speaker 4>conversation we continue to have, and I don't think this

0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:46.000
<v Speaker 4>movie does that. And I think exactly to your point

0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:49.440
<v Speaker 4>that the power dynamics, they're mixed, but it feels pretty

0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:51.920
<v Speaker 4>even in the end that they're both bringing something to

0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:55.480
<v Speaker 4>the table and ultimately have agency to make these decisions

0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:58.560
<v Speaker 4>in a way that feels like relatively healthy. You know,

0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 4>one needs to get pushed a little bit, the other

0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:03.480
<v Speaker 4>one needs to like have an understanding of what she's

0:54:03.480 --> 0:54:05.920
<v Speaker 4>dealing with, like what the world is, and try to

0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:08.279
<v Speaker 4>figure out a middle space that works out for them.

0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:09.680
<v Speaker 2>But I really like that.

0:54:09.760 --> 0:54:11.879
<v Speaker 4>I don't read either of them as any one thing

0:54:12.760 --> 0:54:14.760
<v Speaker 4>masculine or formula or passive or doc.

0:54:15.480 --> 0:54:16.279
<v Speaker 2>There's sort of that vibe.

0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:18.799
<v Speaker 4>But again, like they let Vivian in the end like

0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:21.440
<v Speaker 4>show that she wants this and like is making this

0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:24.520
<v Speaker 4>effort and it's just been hard. But like, yeah, I

0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:26.120
<v Speaker 4>don't know, I think that's I think that's great, And

0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.840
<v Speaker 4>it's just interesting to think about that in the context

0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:31.920
<v Speaker 4>of the time it was made in particular, and then

0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:35.120
<v Speaker 4>now how it plays now, given where we're at as

0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:37.800
<v Speaker 4>a as a as a society, as a culture.

0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:41.880
<v Speaker 3>I do have some thoughts about the lead up to

0:54:42.000 --> 0:54:43.320
<v Speaker 3>the sex scene.

0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's a bit.

0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:50.160
<v Speaker 3>Of pushiness and boundary disrespecting.

0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:50.480
<v Speaker 4>Dubious consent.

0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes that I think we're supposed to be coasting on

0:54:54.080 --> 0:54:59.120
<v Speaker 2>vibes that if this were guess we're a straight sex seed,

0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:03.320
<v Speaker 2>we would definitely feel like, well, really just get naked

0:55:03.360 --> 0:55:06.520
<v Speaker 2>while the other person is talking about why this cannot happen,

0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:08.560
<v Speaker 2>and you.

0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:10.080
<v Speaker 4>Know, she does say like I want you to put

0:55:10.080 --> 0:55:11.720
<v Speaker 4>your clothes on and leave, and she says.

0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:14.359
<v Speaker 2>She don't, and you don't know, you don't twice.

0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:18.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, in any other context, yeah, yeah, fair to call

0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:18.360
<v Speaker 4>that out one.

0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:20.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then there's a part of me that's like, well,

0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:26.040
<v Speaker 2>what she doesn't. But then you're like, now sick, we'll

0:55:26.040 --> 0:55:29.000
<v Speaker 2>talk more about it. Okay, yes, yeah, that just to

0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:33.520
<v Speaker 2>we all we all run the nineteen eighty five elements

0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:34.080
<v Speaker 2>of this.

0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:39.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes, okay, the movie's almost over. So they've had sex

0:55:39.600 --> 0:55:41.719
<v Speaker 3>and had a fight and then made up, and then

0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:45.680
<v Speaker 3>they have sex again. Then it's Silver and Joe's wedding.

0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:50.839
<v Speaker 3>Kay and Vivian are both there, as is Francis, who

0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:54.080
<v Speaker 3>tells Kay that she will never accept her liking women.

0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:57.919
<v Speaker 3>She can't understand two women being together. And then Kay

0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:01.480
<v Speaker 3>repeats one of Francis's lines back to her that Vivian

0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:05.160
<v Speaker 3>reached in and put a string of lights around her heart.

0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:09.720
<v Speaker 3>And so now Francis maybe seems like she's starting to understand,

0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:11.919
<v Speaker 3>and they seem like they kind of reconcile a bit.

0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:17.000
<v Speaker 3>Then Vivian's divorce goes through, so she's about to head

0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:21.280
<v Speaker 3>back to New York. Kay wants for them to be together,

0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:25.040
<v Speaker 3>to stay together, to live together or near each other,

0:56:25.560 --> 0:56:29.040
<v Speaker 3>but Vivian is like, I can't do that. I'll come

0:56:29.080 --> 0:56:31.880
<v Speaker 3>back and visit for Christmas. But that's not good enough

0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:35.759
<v Speaker 3>for Kay, and she's hurt and she leaves, but then

0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:38.760
<v Speaker 3>Kay sees Vivian off at the train station.

0:56:39.760 --> 0:56:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Vivian, I know.

0:56:41.360 --> 0:56:43.879
<v Speaker 3>Vivian invites Kay to come with her to New York,

0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:49.120
<v Speaker 3>saying that she deserves to live with someone who knows

0:56:49.160 --> 0:56:54.040
<v Speaker 3>how wonderful she is, who sees her for who she is, and.

0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:59.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, sobbing, she just wants another forty minutes with her,

0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:02.719
<v Speaker 2>and we're like happy ending.

0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.879
<v Speaker 3>Right, because Kay is hesitant. She's like, I've got loose ends.

0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:11.160
<v Speaker 3>I have to tie up in Reno and you know,

0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:15.880
<v Speaker 3>maybe she's feeling trepidacious. And then the train starts moving

0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:19.280
<v Speaker 3>with Vivian on it and Kay isn't on it. But

0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:22.360
<v Speaker 3>then Kate gets on the train, but just to ride

0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:25.800
<v Speaker 3>to the next station, or maybe to go all the

0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:27.120
<v Speaker 3>way back to New York.

0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Kay is so impulsive she's staying on that.

0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:36.000
<v Speaker 3>It reminded me of the end of this and sorry,

0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:39.880
<v Speaker 3>this is a heterosexual relationship, but the end of I know,

0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:45.600
<v Speaker 3>so I apologize. But the end of Before Sunset, when

0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:50.960
<v Speaker 3>Ethan Hawk's character goes up to Selene's apartment.

0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:53.560
<v Speaker 2>And the Nina Simone record Yeah.

0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:56.280
<v Speaker 3>And then she's like, you're gonna miss your flight and

0:57:56.320 --> 0:58:01.920
<v Speaker 3>He's like, I know, no, anyway, beautiful, Ah, that's the movie.

0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:05.200
<v Speaker 3>So let's take a quick break and we will come

0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:10.760
<v Speaker 3>back to discuss.

0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:20.640
<v Speaker 2>And we're back, and we're back, Emily, where would you

0:58:20.720 --> 0:58:22.120
<v Speaker 2>like to start? What's jumping out to you?

0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:25.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh my goodness, that's such a big question. I feel

0:58:26.000 --> 0:58:27.560
<v Speaker 4>like we've already started talking about a lot of it.

0:58:28.960 --> 0:58:31.120
<v Speaker 4>I guess what I'll start by saying is and we

0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:33.320
<v Speaker 4>would love to hear your thoughts. And I know you've

0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:35.280
<v Speaker 4>talked about this on the show before, but just the

0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:39.400
<v Speaker 4>fact that we had a relatively happy ending. No one dies,

0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:42.560
<v Speaker 4>no one takes their own life, no one gets up,

0:58:42.640 --> 0:58:45.840
<v Speaker 4>put it into institution, Like there is this moment of

0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:47.840
<v Speaker 4>we think, you know, you can be like these two

0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:50.640
<v Speaker 4>crazy kids are going to make it work, because you're

0:58:50.720 --> 0:58:53.440
<v Speaker 4>left with that possibility. They're getting on the train together.

0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:55.919
<v Speaker 4>Maybe it's just another forty minutes, maybe they work it out.

0:58:55.920 --> 0:59:00.120
<v Speaker 4>But again, I cannot overstate how revolutionary that was for

0:59:00.200 --> 0:59:03.320
<v Speaker 4>nineteen eighty five, And honestly, we still deal with the

0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:07.360
<v Speaker 4>barrier gaze trope so much. And I can't imagine, because

0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:09.000
<v Speaker 4>I was four years old when this movie came out,

0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:11.200
<v Speaker 4>like the impact it would have had on a person,

0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:13.800
<v Speaker 4>a gay person going to see it after a lifetime

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:17.600
<v Speaker 4>of crumbs for representation, and when you did have it,

0:59:17.680 --> 0:59:20.560
<v Speaker 4>you knew that that person was going to suffer in

0:59:20.600 --> 0:59:22.560
<v Speaker 4>some way thanks to the Hayes Code, and you know,

0:59:22.560 --> 0:59:24.600
<v Speaker 4>you had this sort of long tail the Hayese code,

0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:26.320
<v Speaker 4>which only I think stopped in.

0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Sixty nine, sixty eight, sixty nine.

0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:32.200
<v Speaker 4>So it's still not that long after that, not a

0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:35.240
<v Speaker 4>long after Stonewall, and plenty of movies were still doing

0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:40.560
<v Speaker 4>exactly that. So it's just incredible to have this movie

0:59:40.600 --> 0:59:43.280
<v Speaker 4>period and then to have that ending. It was such

0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:46.760
<v Speaker 4>a gift. And I still feel like it holds up.

0:59:46.840 --> 0:59:48.760
<v Speaker 4>You know again, I kind of like that it's a

0:59:48.760 --> 0:59:53.439
<v Speaker 4>little ambiguous, but still generally a pretty happy ending. Yeah,

0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:55.600
<v Speaker 4>like it feels it feels earned.

0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:56.160
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:59:56.520 --> 0:59:58.520
<v Speaker 3>One of the first things that Donna Ditch says in

0:59:58.560 --> 1:00:01.880
<v Speaker 3>the audio commentary is I wanted to make a film

1:00:02.080 --> 1:00:05.480
<v Speaker 3>about a love relationship between two women that didn't end

1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:10.000
<v Speaker 3>in a bisexual triangle or a suicide. I wanted to

1:00:10.000 --> 1:00:14.000
<v Speaker 3>see something much more authentic than that. So she set

1:00:14.040 --> 1:00:16.880
<v Speaker 3>out to do that, and she accomplished it.

1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:18.200
<v Speaker 4>She did well.

1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:21.600
<v Speaker 2>But let's okay, this Actually, I all love and respect

1:00:21.600 --> 1:00:23.240
<v Speaker 2>to Danna Deetch, but we have to talk about our

1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:26.919
<v Speaker 2>good friend Jane Rule. Yes, so I did not. I

1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:29.880
<v Speaker 2>was not aware of her as a cultural figure before

1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:33.840
<v Speaker 2>doing research for this episode, but she wrote the book

1:00:34.080 --> 1:00:37.640
<v Speaker 2>that this movie is based on Desert of the Heart,

1:00:38.080 --> 1:00:40.439
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to go through it a little bit.

1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:45.160
<v Speaker 2>It was published in nineteen sixty four. Jane is. I

1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:48.520
<v Speaker 2>think she's an American Canadian, but she basically moved to

1:00:48.560 --> 1:00:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Canada to escape homophobic prosecution or persecution, Sorry, not prosecution,

1:00:55.120 --> 1:01:00.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't think, and hope not in the US. But

1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:03.200
<v Speaker 2>she's just she's a fascinating figure who ends up becoming

1:01:03.240 --> 1:01:05.520
<v Speaker 2>great friends with Donna Ditch Like this movie had her

1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:08.120
<v Speaker 2>full blessing and she really loved it. She lives until

1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:11.080
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven. But just to get into because

1:01:11.120 --> 1:01:14.080
<v Speaker 2>something I was wondering, not knowing a lot about the

1:01:14.120 --> 1:01:19.000
<v Speaker 2>backstory of Desert Hearts, was why why choose a period

1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:22.520
<v Speaker 2>setting for this? Because it's something we've talked about with

1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:26.600
<v Speaker 2>queer film a lot, specifically movies centering on lesbian relationships,

1:01:26.680 --> 1:01:30.560
<v Speaker 2>is they're very often tragic pieces set in the past,

1:01:30.640 --> 1:01:34.360
<v Speaker 2>even ones that we've covered and loved see Portrait of

1:01:34.560 --> 1:01:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Lady comes to see like there's the list goes on

1:01:40.640 --> 1:01:43.520
<v Speaker 2>and on. They're a very in quality, but like you know,

1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:45.480
<v Speaker 2>you can take Portrait of Lady on fire from my

1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:49.760
<v Speaker 2>cold dead hands. However, the trope is present. So I

1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:53.240
<v Speaker 2>was curious, because this movie does not have an unhappy ending,

1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:56.080
<v Speaker 2>what was the function of setting it? And it's because

1:01:56.120 --> 1:02:00.760
<v Speaker 2>it's when the novel was set and written. So Jane

1:02:01.040 --> 1:02:06.040
<v Speaker 2>Rule was born in the thirties and had family in Reno,

1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:10.840
<v Speaker 2>so she was sort of witnessed this up close. Wrote

1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:14.240
<v Speaker 2>Desert of the Heart. It finished it in nineteen sixty one.

1:02:14.680 --> 1:02:18.400
<v Speaker 2>It was not published for three years after that because

1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:22.320
<v Speaker 2>no publisher wanted to publish a book that centered on

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:27.440
<v Speaker 2>a lesbian relationship, much less one that ended ambiguous to good.

1:02:30.400 --> 1:02:33.080
<v Speaker 2>There was a lovely short doc I found about her

1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:37.080
<v Speaker 2>on YouTube dot com that was produced in the nineties.

1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:42.840
<v Speaker 2>And Jane is a hoot. She is really funny. And

1:02:42.880 --> 1:02:45.120
<v Speaker 2>also it makes total sense that her and Donna Dietch

1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:46.640
<v Speaker 2>get along. I feel like they have a very similar

1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:49.680
<v Speaker 2>sense of humor. Where Jane Rule, when talking about the book,

1:02:50.280 --> 1:02:55.520
<v Speaker 2>was saying that, like she she was so unsure of

1:02:55.560 --> 1:02:58.000
<v Speaker 2>whether she wanted the book to be adapted into a

1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:01.200
<v Speaker 2>movie first, because it had sort of turned her into

1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:05.600
<v Speaker 2>a cultural symbol in all of North America. As I mean,

1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:08.000
<v Speaker 2>she she has this quote where she was like, for years,

1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:10.400
<v Speaker 2>I was treated as if I were the only lesbian

1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:15.440
<v Speaker 2>in Canada and I just had to which was obviously

1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:17.400
<v Speaker 2>not true, but the way the media spoke about me,

1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:19.960
<v Speaker 2>you'd never know there was a second lesbian in Canada.

1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:23.960
<v Speaker 2>And so she, I mean, she was sort of tokenized

1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:27.040
<v Speaker 2>in this way that she was upset about, understandably and

1:03:27.280 --> 1:03:30.080
<v Speaker 2>did not care for. And so when Donna Ditch approached her,

1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:33.800
<v Speaker 2>she was I think her quote was something like, you know,

1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I did not want the Hollywood version of this movie,

1:03:36.600 --> 1:03:39.680
<v Speaker 2>which is always one person in the couple commits suicide

1:03:39.720 --> 1:03:42.400
<v Speaker 2>and the other gets married to a man. And so

1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:46.280
<v Speaker 2>she and Donna Ditch had a link up. They talked

1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:50.240
<v Speaker 2>about it. Donna Ditch apparently showed Jane Rule everything she'd

1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:54.640
<v Speaker 2>ever made, which seems excessive, but it seemed like the

1:03:54.720 --> 1:03:59.040
<v Speaker 2>meeting went well, obviously, and Jane Rule gave her blessing

1:03:59.640 --> 1:04:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and said that there were she said again, it was like, gosh,

1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:06.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how I if I would be able

1:04:06.320 --> 1:04:08.520
<v Speaker 2>to handle hearing this, but she told Donna Ditsch, I

1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:11.720
<v Speaker 2>don't think you are capable of adapting my story, but

1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:15.280
<v Speaker 2>you can adapt a version of it, which, first of

1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:18.040
<v Speaker 2>all I was like, whoa. But also that does seem

1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.480
<v Speaker 2>to be what happened because Desert of the Heart, while

1:04:20.520 --> 1:04:24.560
<v Speaker 2>I have not read it, the bones are similar. I

1:04:24.560 --> 1:04:27.320
<v Speaker 2>think that the things that are sort of softened or

1:04:27.440 --> 1:04:30.080
<v Speaker 2>changed for the movie mainly have to do with the

1:04:30.120 --> 1:04:34.720
<v Speaker 2>specifics around In the book, it's Evelin in Anne, but

1:04:34.840 --> 1:04:39.040
<v Speaker 2>around Evelin, who is still a professor, her thoughts around

1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:44.760
<v Speaker 2>her divorce, there's more more interiority, digging into her feeling

1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:49.520
<v Speaker 2>responsible for the end of her marriage, which had to

1:04:49.560 --> 1:04:52.160
<v Speaker 2>do with both her not being attracted to her husband

1:04:52.200 --> 1:04:54.840
<v Speaker 2>and also the fact that her husband was tremendously depressed

1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.120
<v Speaker 2>unrelated to the marriage and blaming it on her. So

1:04:58.480 --> 1:05:02.880
<v Speaker 2>that was I think more prominent in the story. I

1:05:02.960 --> 1:05:06.440
<v Speaker 2>don't mind. I actually think it's a positive adaptation that

1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:09.760
<v Speaker 2>that is not really harped upon in Desert Hearts, and

1:05:09.920 --> 1:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>that men really have not very much to do with

1:05:12.880 --> 1:05:16.760
<v Speaker 2>what's going on, and straight people have very little to

1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:19.400
<v Speaker 2>do with what's going on. I know, I love that. Yeah.

1:05:19.440 --> 1:05:25.400
<v Speaker 3>Also, I learned from the audio commentary that sometime after

1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:30.360
<v Speaker 3>publishing her book, Jane Rule was approached by a studio

1:05:30.600 --> 1:05:33.560
<v Speaker 3>to option the book and adapt it into a film,

1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:37.840
<v Speaker 3>but Jane Rule refused because she feared that it would

1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:40.400
<v Speaker 3>be altered in a way that would be unacceptable to her.

1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:43.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, the one person kills themself, one person gets

1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:44.800
<v Speaker 2>married to a man.

1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:48.200
<v Speaker 3>Right right. Yeah, So then she sold the option to

1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Donna Ditch, and then Donna went to a studio for financing.

1:05:53.440 --> 1:05:57.320
<v Speaker 3>But after a few meetings at this studio, she realized

1:05:57.360 --> 1:05:59.240
<v Speaker 3>that they would not let her make the movie the

1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:02.120
<v Speaker 3>way that she wanted to make it and honor the book.

1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:07.000
<v Speaker 3>So she had to finance the movie independently. So, as

1:06:07.000 --> 1:06:11.000
<v Speaker 3>we mentioned already, she did things like sell her house.

1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:15.560
<v Speaker 3>She sold some shares to individual investors, many of whom

1:06:15.760 --> 1:06:19.440
<v Speaker 3>were lesbians, who I imagine were very eager to see

1:06:19.640 --> 1:06:25.200
<v Speaker 3>positive lesbian representation on screen. Also, the largest single investor

1:06:25.400 --> 1:06:30.120
<v Speaker 3>was a gay man. I don't know who specifically.

1:06:29.480 --> 1:06:31.760
<v Speaker 2>But shout out that guy. I was like, shout out

1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:32.720
<v Speaker 2>to shout out to him.

1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:36.320
<v Speaker 3>She also got a grant from the National Endowment for

1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:38.520
<v Speaker 3>the Arts, but basically she just like had to cobble

1:06:38.600 --> 1:06:43.480
<v Speaker 3>together a bunch of like different sources of money eventually

1:06:43.600 --> 1:06:47.840
<v Speaker 3>raised one point five million dollars for the budget, which.

1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Is so prevalent. I mean I almost think about like

1:06:49.680 --> 1:06:52.800
<v Speaker 2>early John Waters movies of just like how much iconic

1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:57.600
<v Speaker 2>queer cinema like could not have been made in the

1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:01.960
<v Speaker 2>conventional studio system and require a lot of creativity and

1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:06.560
<v Speaker 2>like sacrifice on behalf of the people making it in

1:07:06.680 --> 1:07:10.240
<v Speaker 2>order for us to you know. And of course once

1:07:10.240 --> 1:07:13.960
<v Speaker 2>the studios are like, oh wait, people will pay for this, sure, sorry,

1:07:14.360 --> 1:07:17.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, but it is always late to the party,

1:07:17.320 --> 1:07:21.440
<v Speaker 2>always always. I'm just I'm so glad for I mean

1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:24.720
<v Speaker 2>truly everyone, but like particularly for Jane Rule that like

1:07:24.800 --> 1:07:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Donna Dietch, really committed to getting the story told the

1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:29.000
<v Speaker 2>way that it needed to be told.

1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:31.479
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Absolutely, And not to diminish the amount of hustle

1:07:31.560 --> 1:07:33.080
<v Speaker 4>it took to make it, but I believe it it

1:07:33.120 --> 1:07:35.320
<v Speaker 4>made back more than it's its budget, Like it did,

1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:37.760
<v Speaker 4>you know, it doesn't Gangbusters, but it did make more.

1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:41.600
<v Speaker 3>It made a profit two point five million dollar box

1:07:41.640 --> 1:07:44.680
<v Speaker 3>office receipts on a one point five million dollar budget.

1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Not too bad, not too shabby.

1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:50.200
<v Speaker 3>One of the last things that Donna Jech says in

1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:54.240
<v Speaker 3>the audio commentary is and this kind of also relates.

1:07:54.520 --> 1:07:57.160
<v Speaker 3>We can talk about like the critical reception of this movie,

1:07:57.800 --> 1:08:03.040
<v Speaker 3>but the film was playing at maybe one theater in

1:08:03.080 --> 1:08:06.200
<v Speaker 3>New York City, potentially more, but it seems like it

1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:09.160
<v Speaker 3>was maybe just this one for a time, I think

1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:12.120
<v Speaker 3>when it was like first released in theaters in nineteen

1:08:12.120 --> 1:08:16.680
<v Speaker 3>eighty six after its like festival run. And there was

1:08:16.720 --> 1:08:19.600
<v Speaker 3>a critic named Vincent Camby.

1:08:19.360 --> 1:08:21.839
<v Speaker 2>Who famous New York Times critic right.

1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:24.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, who was known to if he gave like a

1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:28.960
<v Speaker 3>scathing review of something, especially an indie film, it would

1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:33.200
<v Speaker 3>probably not survive. It would other screenings of it in

1:08:33.280 --> 1:08:35.800
<v Speaker 3>other markets and cities and stuff like that would probably

1:08:35.840 --> 1:08:36.479
<v Speaker 3>be canceled.

1:08:36.560 --> 1:08:37.920
<v Speaker 4>Too much power for one guy.

1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:41.840
<v Speaker 3>Exactly exactly, but like films died in the water from

1:08:42.040 --> 1:08:46.080
<v Speaker 3>his reviews apparently quite often, and he gave this movie

1:08:46.360 --> 1:08:50.120
<v Speaker 3>a scathing review. So Donna Ditch was like, we can

1:08:50.120 --> 1:08:53.800
<v Speaker 3>salvage this. So she basically went to several screenings of

1:08:53.840 --> 1:08:56.479
<v Speaker 3>her film over the course of a weekend and basically

1:08:56.560 --> 1:08:59.759
<v Speaker 3>was like she told the audience, if you liked this movie,

1:09:00.160 --> 1:09:03.160
<v Speaker 3>please tell a bunch of your friends to come see it,

1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:07.080
<v Speaker 3>and that worked that all the movie came i think

1:09:07.280 --> 1:09:11.679
<v Speaker 3>six tickets away from breaking the box office record at

1:09:11.680 --> 1:09:15.920
<v Speaker 3>that cinema for the weekend, and the movie came to

1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:20.160
<v Speaker 3>be known as a can be buster, and it was

1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:22.960
<v Speaker 3>one of the few independent films of that era to

1:09:23.120 --> 1:09:27.920
<v Speaker 3>have survived his wrath. As Donna Ditch puts it, we.

1:09:27.920 --> 1:09:29.840
<v Speaker 4>Got to shut a shout out the queer community too.

1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:32.040
<v Speaker 4>I mean kudas to her for like showing up and

1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:34.439
<v Speaker 4>putting in the shoe leather to just promote it and

1:09:34.479 --> 1:09:36.960
<v Speaker 4>get people to do that. But also like queer folks

1:09:37.000 --> 1:09:38.880
<v Speaker 4>will show up for the things that they love, especially

1:09:38.920 --> 1:09:41.799
<v Speaker 4>when they get the sense that that thing loves them back. Yeah,

1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:45.600
<v Speaker 4>and go hard for it. I think we have done that.

1:09:45.600 --> 1:09:47.680
<v Speaker 4>We have a long history of doing that, even when

1:09:47.680 --> 1:09:49.600
<v Speaker 4>it's maybe not the most high quality thing, but you

1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:51.360
<v Speaker 4>can tell that the thing loves you back, we will

1:09:51.400 --> 1:09:53.879
<v Speaker 4>go hard. And I think that's I think that's beautiful

1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:55.920
<v Speaker 4>and I think that this is definitely a testament to

1:09:56.800 --> 1:09:58.720
<v Speaker 4>We saw what this was and we were like, you

1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:01.040
<v Speaker 4>know what, we're not gonna let this one. And reviewer

1:10:01.360 --> 1:10:04.000
<v Speaker 4>guy tank it, I agree, it's too important.

1:10:04.240 --> 1:10:10.600
<v Speaker 3>Meanwhile, Vito Russo's over here talking about he wrote in

1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:15.080
<v Speaker 3>his book The Cellular Closet homosexuality in the movies. We've

1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.759
<v Speaker 3>cited the Vito Russo test on the show many times,

1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:22.400
<v Speaker 3>of which he was the founder. But he said, quote,

1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:25.680
<v Speaker 3>Desert Hearts is a love story that recreates, with perceptiveness

1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:28.519
<v Speaker 3>and tenderness, what it might have been like for two

1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:31.320
<v Speaker 3>women of different generations and backgrounds to fall in love

1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:34.519
<v Speaker 3>in the fifties. Deetcha's refusal to feature the straight world's

1:10:34.520 --> 1:10:37.800
<v Speaker 3>reaction to lesbianism as her focus of the film made

1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:40.439
<v Speaker 3>all the difference in the way the relationship between the

1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:43.800
<v Speaker 3>women was perceived by audiences. And then he went on

1:10:44.000 --> 1:10:47.960
<v Speaker 3>to say, Vincent can be complained that we are not

1:10:48.000 --> 1:10:51.759
<v Speaker 3>given enough information about the quality of Vivian's broken marriage,

1:10:52.080 --> 1:10:57.120
<v Speaker 3>asking if perhaps her lesbianism was a hysterical reaction to

1:10:57.240 --> 1:10:57.919
<v Speaker 3>her divorce.

1:10:58.760 --> 1:11:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Yay, oh god, I mean, that's kind of great for

1:11:03.320 --> 1:11:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Donna deetch to be like, well, I have proof as

1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:10.040
<v Speaker 2>to why he didn't like it. He's homophobic, Like.

1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:11.759
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, tellan on himself.

1:11:11.880 --> 1:11:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Yep. And then the final bit of this quote is

1:11:14.960 --> 1:11:18.200
<v Speaker 3>Vita Ruster saying, this is the point at which many

1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:24.160
<v Speaker 3>heterosexual critics disqualify themselves from perceptibly reviewing gay films.

1:11:24.520 --> 1:11:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, yeah, quote.

1:11:26.000 --> 1:11:28.720
<v Speaker 4>I think that is exactly right. And you know you

1:11:28.720 --> 1:11:31.680
<v Speaker 4>were talking before about that conversation she has with the

1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:33.920
<v Speaker 4>Vivian has with the lawyer as being sort of the

1:11:33.960 --> 1:11:36.559
<v Speaker 4>only kind of the most deep dive weld get into

1:11:36.600 --> 1:11:39.400
<v Speaker 4>what happened in that, And I love, I love exactly

1:11:39.479 --> 1:11:41.160
<v Speaker 4>what it says, and it's it's not saying that this

1:11:41.320 --> 1:11:44.360
<v Speaker 4>was a terrible It wasn't a hysterical reaction. It wasn't

1:11:44.360 --> 1:11:47.360
<v Speaker 4>this huge thing where she had an abusive husband. It

1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:49.519
<v Speaker 4>was just a marriage that wasn't working and she was

1:11:49.560 --> 1:11:52.360
<v Speaker 4>not interested. It clearly wasn't interested in him, and it

1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:55.400
<v Speaker 4>was would she say it drowned in still waters, say

1:11:55.400 --> 1:11:56.120
<v Speaker 4>no more.

1:11:56.400 --> 1:11:59.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, like that, and that's all it needed to be.

1:11:59.360 --> 1:12:01.479
<v Speaker 4>That was the I mean, I think anybody who got

1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:04.600
<v Speaker 4>it knew exactly what that meant and that that was

1:12:04.640 --> 1:12:06.800
<v Speaker 4>the important part. And it absolutely yeah, it's not for

1:12:07.560 --> 1:12:10.760
<v Speaker 4>none of this was for the straight man and they.

1:12:12.160 --> 1:12:17.479
<v Speaker 2>Critics, which is like why so many queer classics are

1:12:17.520 --> 1:12:21.880
<v Speaker 2>not well reviewed in their day, because they just don't

1:12:21.960 --> 1:12:25.559
<v Speaker 2>understand what the movie is for or don't care, but

1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:27.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad. I mean again, it's like, I'm so

1:12:28.080 --> 1:12:32.080
<v Speaker 2>glad that Donna Ditch was able to advocate for this movie.

1:12:32.120 --> 1:12:35.559
<v Speaker 2>And I also think it's still like you were saying earlier, Caitlin,

1:12:35.640 --> 1:12:41.400
<v Speaker 2>like under taught and underdiscussed in like film education. Totally.

1:12:41.439 --> 1:12:44.040
<v Speaker 2>It is like, I'm frustrated that it took me so

1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:47.600
<v Speaker 2>long to watch this movie, and that's partially on me,

1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:51.800
<v Speaker 2>but also it's partially on the world. Absolutely, Yeah, Well,

1:12:52.720 --> 1:12:54.920
<v Speaker 2>what else would we like to talk about?

1:12:55.280 --> 1:12:58.519
<v Speaker 4>I just want to shout out Silver again, but specifically.

1:12:57.960 --> 1:12:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Because I do.

1:12:59.360 --> 1:13:01.559
<v Speaker 4>I I think it's common you sort of get like

1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:04.639
<v Speaker 4>the world in the movie is very insular in things

1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:06.040
<v Speaker 4>like this where it's just like about the couple and

1:13:06.080 --> 1:13:08.400
<v Speaker 4>they don't seem to have like a world outside of

1:13:08.800 --> 1:13:10.720
<v Speaker 4>They don't have friends, they don't have a community, right,

1:13:10.800 --> 1:13:13.040
<v Speaker 4>So you know, Silver is sort of I think holding

1:13:13.080 --> 1:13:16.000
<v Speaker 4>down the role of like a community that Kay clearly

1:13:16.040 --> 1:13:18.799
<v Speaker 4>does have. She does have additional people that she's seeing

1:13:18.840 --> 1:13:22.080
<v Speaker 4>and and friends and families. So I love Silver as

1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:23.840
<v Speaker 4>a character. I love that she's sort of this writer

1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:27.439
<v Speaker 4>die friend who we don't get all the big details.

1:13:27.479 --> 1:13:29.280
<v Speaker 4>But like you said, Jamie, Like you get the sense

1:13:29.320 --> 1:13:31.760
<v Speaker 4>that she's lived a life, you know, But I just

1:13:31.840 --> 1:13:33.560
<v Speaker 4>I really appreciate you're talking about like most of the

1:13:33.600 --> 1:13:35.880
<v Speaker 4>women or most of the characters in this movie are

1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:38.479
<v Speaker 4>women talking to each other. There's you know, there's a

1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:41.400
<v Speaker 4>there's a Silver's partner who we like, who's who's great.

1:13:41.880 --> 1:13:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But otherwise it's like.

1:13:42.760 --> 1:13:45.800
<v Speaker 4>There's very few men with speaking roles, which is you know,

1:13:45.960 --> 1:13:48.160
<v Speaker 4>rare and a delight. But just the fact that like

1:13:48.200 --> 1:13:52.360
<v Speaker 4>they let they let Kay have friends and not just

1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:54.960
<v Speaker 4>be this sort of like singular character that with no

1:13:55.080 --> 1:13:59.639
<v Speaker 4>context and no community basically, And I like that element

1:13:59.720 --> 1:14:02.160
<v Speaker 4>of this movie as well, that there are multiple other

1:14:02.200 --> 1:14:05.639
<v Speaker 4>people that have a role to play in this That

1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:08.640
<v Speaker 4>feels like it just adds a lot of substance.

1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:11.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it raises the stakes at the end too,

1:14:11.520 --> 1:14:14.640
<v Speaker 2>because it's like you do get the feeling that she

1:14:14.760 --> 1:14:18.080
<v Speaker 2>would be like leaving something behind and like, yeah, there

1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:21.400
<v Speaker 2>is uh an And I appreciate. This reminded me although

1:14:21.439 --> 1:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like these movies have very little in common. But

1:14:24.120 --> 1:14:28.880
<v Speaker 2>we recently covered Appropriate Behavior on the show, and a

1:14:28.920 --> 1:14:33.760
<v Speaker 2>little bit the dynamic between Sharene from Appropriate Behavior and

1:14:33.800 --> 1:14:36.800
<v Speaker 2>her mother reminded me a little bit of the relationship

1:14:36.840 --> 1:14:40.320
<v Speaker 2>between Kay and Francis, because even though I think that

1:14:40.439 --> 1:14:43.519
<v Speaker 2>like Francis in particular is which makes sense given the

1:14:43.560 --> 1:14:48.400
<v Speaker 2>time caught up in like what is her role to Ka?

1:14:48.880 --> 1:14:54.240
<v Speaker 2>What was her role to Glenn? Because marriage was such

1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>a marker right in the fifties and such a defining

1:14:58.520 --> 1:15:02.519
<v Speaker 2>quality of one women how women were supposed to perceive themselves.

1:15:02.600 --> 1:15:05.160
<v Speaker 2>But like, for all intents and purposes, she's Kay's mother.

1:15:05.920 --> 1:15:09.679
<v Speaker 2>Kay's mother like walked out, and it seems like Francis

1:15:10.000 --> 1:15:13.439
<v Speaker 2>essentially raised her, and Kay basically speaks to that without

1:15:13.600 --> 1:15:15.920
<v Speaker 2>overtly calling her a mother. At the end, is like,

1:15:16.040 --> 1:15:18.080
<v Speaker 2>I've known you longer than I've known anyone else in

1:15:18.120 --> 1:15:22.120
<v Speaker 2>my life, and I thought it was interesting. At the

1:15:22.200 --> 1:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>end of Appropriate Behavior, Scharene comes out as bisexual to

1:15:26.439 --> 1:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>her mother, who kind of just pretends she doesn't hear it,

1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and Sharene decides, I want a relationship with my mom.

1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:36.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna step away for a while and then try again.

1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:39.680
<v Speaker 2>And it seems like Kay is sort of pursuing a

1:15:39.760 --> 1:15:44.000
<v Speaker 2>similar journey with Frances. I like that it's kept ambiguous,

1:15:44.520 --> 1:15:47.320
<v Speaker 2>but I just that dynamic ended up being more nuanced

1:15:47.439 --> 1:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>than I expected, I guess, because frances is absolutely monstrous

1:15:52.479 --> 1:15:57.400
<v Speaker 2>in like humiliate like intentionally humiliating Vivian and Kay to

1:15:57.560 --> 1:16:01.080
<v Speaker 2>prove a point to specifically Kay, but also to herself

1:16:01.479 --> 1:16:05.360
<v Speaker 2>in this very selfish way to attempt to shame k

1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:09.000
<v Speaker 2>which first of all will never work, and also you know,

1:16:09.120 --> 1:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>like place a flag on her and be like you

1:16:11.920 --> 1:16:15.840
<v Speaker 2>are mine because I cannot accept that Glenn is dead

1:16:16.000 --> 1:16:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and Kay is sort of like that's my problem, you know,

1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:22.519
<v Speaker 2>Like I think, you know, Francis is centering her own

1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:25.400
<v Speaker 2>grief above anyone else's. And I got the.

1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:28.040
<v Speaker 4>Line that Kay has. There's some really good one liners

1:16:28.040 --> 1:16:30.280
<v Speaker 4>in this movie too. She she calls out Francis. She says,

1:16:30.280 --> 1:16:32.559
<v Speaker 4>you want things without loving them, that's greed.

1:16:32.920 --> 1:16:33.360
<v Speaker 2>Hmmm.

1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:38.720
<v Speaker 4>I realized that really sums up kind of the conflicts.

1:16:37.439 --> 1:16:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Going on, and I thought it was they leave it

1:16:40.720 --> 1:16:43.720
<v Speaker 2>in this very kind of like nuanced, ambiguous place that

1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:46.479
<v Speaker 2>again just I think like this movie shows a lot

1:16:46.520 --> 1:16:51.040
<v Speaker 2>of shades of gray. Yeah, especially with Kay's family dynamic

1:16:51.120 --> 1:16:52.280
<v Speaker 2>that I really appreciated.

1:16:52.400 --> 1:16:54.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's sort of similar to how they leave it

1:16:54.400 --> 1:16:56.920
<v Speaker 4>with again that ambiguity at the end, like there's there

1:16:56.960 --> 1:16:59.400
<v Speaker 4>is a hope that something more positive will calm down

1:16:59.400 --> 1:17:02.200
<v Speaker 4>a line, but you're given the neat, tidy, buttoned up

1:17:02.280 --> 1:17:04.960
<v Speaker 4>ending like that everything is solved and you know, everything's happy.

1:17:05.000 --> 1:17:09.280
<v Speaker 4>It's and you know, that's fun. Sometimes I love that.

1:17:09.439 --> 1:17:12.880
<v Speaker 4>Sometimes it's very relieving, especially in a queer film. But

1:17:13.320 --> 1:17:15.559
<v Speaker 4>I think again, it feels like it's really true to

1:17:15.600 --> 1:17:18.720
<v Speaker 4>the story and the time and it's still. Yeah, it's

1:17:18.800 --> 1:17:21.599
<v Speaker 4>much more nuanced than I think I was expecting when

1:17:21.640 --> 1:17:24.840
<v Speaker 4>I went into this film, So that's great. Yeah.

1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:29.040
<v Speaker 3>Speaking of great lines, my favorite one I think is

1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:33.200
<v Speaker 3>it's after they've had sex for the first time. Vivian

1:17:33.800 --> 1:17:37.960
<v Speaker 3>is freaking out not only about like what if people

1:17:38.000 --> 1:17:40.240
<v Speaker 3>find out? What if I lose my job, but she

1:17:40.360 --> 1:17:44.240
<v Speaker 3>also like can't really She's like struggling with Kay being

1:17:44.400 --> 1:17:49.960
<v Speaker 3>so fearless and self assured, and Kay says in response

1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:52.799
<v Speaker 3>to that, I don't act this way to change the world.

1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:55.400
<v Speaker 3>I act this way so the world won't change me.

1:17:55.960 --> 1:17:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I'm like.

1:17:56.800 --> 1:18:01.800
<v Speaker 4>Oh, bars, spit and Fire truly so good.

1:18:02.240 --> 1:18:07.160
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I just love how these are such two distinct

1:18:07.800 --> 1:18:10.960
<v Speaker 3>characters and how I mean kind of going back to

1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:15.599
<v Speaker 3>the casting conversation where Donna Ditch had a really difficult

1:18:15.640 --> 1:18:20.720
<v Speaker 3>time finding actors who would willingly portray lesbian characters, and

1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.479
<v Speaker 3>many of them refuse to audition for the film.

1:18:23.800 --> 1:18:26.439
<v Speaker 2>And then also just like annoying that she couldn't get

1:18:26.439 --> 1:18:29.559
<v Speaker 2>bigger names. I think also just for logistical reasons, which

1:18:29.600 --> 1:18:31.439
<v Speaker 2>is that like a lot of actors think they're too

1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:32.439
<v Speaker 2>famous to audition.

1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:37.879
<v Speaker 3>True, yes, yeah. And then Helen Shaver and Patricia Charbonneau

1:18:37.960 --> 1:18:41.519
<v Speaker 3>were told by their friends and their agents that this

1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:45.840
<v Speaker 3>film would ruin their careers, but they were like, Okay,

1:18:45.880 --> 1:18:49.000
<v Speaker 3>these are substantial roles. It's like two women who are

1:18:49.040 --> 1:18:52.600
<v Speaker 3>co leads in a feature film. The characters are interesting

1:18:52.720 --> 1:18:57.000
<v Speaker 3>and dynamic, and parts like this just like barely exist

1:18:57.680 --> 1:19:01.479
<v Speaker 3>ye for women in films, and to this day still

1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:05.120
<v Speaker 3>barely exist. Unfortunately, So these two actors like jumped at

1:19:05.120 --> 1:19:08.760
<v Speaker 3>the chance to play these characters who are just like

1:19:08.960 --> 1:19:14.879
<v Speaker 3>so distinct and relatable and compelling to watch.

1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:18.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean you can totally. It's it's very clear

1:19:18.200 --> 1:19:22.479
<v Speaker 2>why these characters fall in love with each other, like

1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:27.120
<v Speaker 2>it just they compliment each other so well, will it

1:19:27.160 --> 1:19:31.519
<v Speaker 2>go the distance? Well, we need to give Donald least

1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:37.080
<v Speaker 2>billion dollars to make the desert hurts too, And then

1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:38.040
<v Speaker 2>we can find out.

1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:38.920
<v Speaker 4>That'd be great.

1:19:39.600 --> 1:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I love it. My prediction is they end up in

1:19:41.800 --> 1:19:46.600
<v Speaker 2>like a lifelong situation ship thing. Yeah, I can see that,

1:19:46.680 --> 1:19:49.160
<v Speaker 2>okay in New York. I don't know if Ya's going

1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:51.320
<v Speaker 2>to that, that's exactly.

1:19:52.560 --> 1:19:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they're going to have to open up their relationship. Yeah,

1:19:54.960 --> 1:19:57.600
<v Speaker 3>become polyamorous.

1:19:56.600 --> 1:19:59.000
<v Speaker 2>As long as the late sixties hit. Yeah, it's it's

1:19:59.040 --> 1:20:01.880
<v Speaker 2>going to be a while ride. Yeah, Yeah, Vivian's going

1:20:01.960 --> 1:20:05.960
<v Speaker 2>to need to get on board or or things change.

1:20:06.200 --> 1:20:08.559
<v Speaker 2>But that's okay. For now, we have forty minutes and

1:20:08.600 --> 1:20:12.000
<v Speaker 2>they're just they're so wellful, they're going to make it work.

1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I want to really quickly return to the sex scene.

1:20:16.439 --> 1:20:21.400
<v Speaker 2>As we mentioned, there are various like and especially like

1:20:21.439 --> 1:20:24.120
<v Speaker 2>the lead up to the sex scene, we talked about

1:20:24.120 --> 1:20:29.760
<v Speaker 2>how Vivian is visibly uncomfortable. She is saying, I want

1:20:29.800 --> 1:20:31.400
<v Speaker 2>you to leave, I want you to put your clothes on.

1:20:32.040 --> 1:20:35.960
<v Speaker 2>She reluctantly lets Kay in. In the first place, k

1:20:36.200 --> 1:20:40.439
<v Speaker 2>gets naked without making sure that was okay with Vivian.

1:20:40.479 --> 1:20:42.920
<v Speaker 2>You know all these things. Vivian says, I don't want

1:20:42.920 --> 1:20:44.559
<v Speaker 2>to take off my robe, and.

1:20:44.479 --> 1:20:48.439
<v Speaker 4>Then Kate, we all have to draw the lawn somewhere.

1:20:48.640 --> 1:20:52.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then she does not respect that boundary. Now,

1:20:53.000 --> 1:20:56.880
<v Speaker 3>as the scene goes, Vivian gets more comfortable with it,

1:20:56.960 --> 1:21:00.320
<v Speaker 3>as as we also talked about, but again, and she

1:21:00.560 --> 1:21:03.840
<v Speaker 3>is clearly stating a lot of boundaries that Kay is

1:21:03.880 --> 1:21:07.120
<v Speaker 3>blowing right past. Now, you could read this, I think

1:21:07.280 --> 1:21:12.360
<v Speaker 3>as a situation where one queer woman who is much

1:21:12.439 --> 1:21:16.160
<v Speaker 3>more comfortable and open with her sexuality is trying to

1:21:16.400 --> 1:21:19.439
<v Speaker 3>encourage the other woman to break out of her shell

1:21:20.280 --> 1:21:25.040
<v Speaker 3>abandon her fears and insecurities. But also, you can do

1:21:25.120 --> 1:21:30.800
<v Speaker 3>that and still respect someone's boundaries. Yes, So I feel

1:21:30.840 --> 1:21:33.960
<v Speaker 3>like there's like traces of the like quote unquote predatory

1:21:34.040 --> 1:21:37.240
<v Speaker 3>lesbian trope at the beginning of this scene. But then

1:21:37.280 --> 1:21:40.920
<v Speaker 3>as it goes again, Vivian comes into her own and

1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:43.639
<v Speaker 3>has the best time.

1:21:45.560 --> 1:21:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:21:46.160 --> 1:21:50.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I'm curious what you think of I'm like,

1:21:50.280 --> 1:21:53.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm just maybe it's just my personal love of the movie.

1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:56.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm tempted to give it a pass because I don't

1:21:57.320 --> 1:22:00.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that this agenda is to set in

1:22:00.520 --> 1:22:03.360
<v Speaker 2>an example necessarily. I don't know. I mean, I don't

1:22:03.400 --> 1:22:05.640
<v Speaker 2>mean to give it too much of a pass, but like,

1:22:05.760 --> 1:22:09.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I think that there is a tricky

1:22:10.120 --> 1:22:13.880
<v Speaker 2>thing in movies, especially the further you go back in history,

1:22:13.920 --> 1:22:20.120
<v Speaker 2>where it's like the normalization of how consent is communicated

1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:25.040
<v Speaker 2>and verbalized I think has changed pretty considerably over time.

1:22:26.080 --> 1:22:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I'm inclined to give this movie a pass,

1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:32.080
<v Speaker 2>even though I think on paper, you're totally right.

1:22:33.120 --> 1:22:36.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, especially because it was so revolutionary for the time.

1:22:36.840 --> 1:22:40.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean I think watching it now, you should

1:22:40.320 --> 1:22:42.760
<v Speaker 4>feel a little icky about how it starts, right, So

1:22:43.160 --> 1:22:45.760
<v Speaker 4>that is not something we would want to follow the

1:22:45.800 --> 1:22:49.200
<v Speaker 4>example of ideally not back then and certainly not now.

1:22:49.640 --> 1:22:51.600
<v Speaker 4>And I think I'm gonna have to sign But they're like,

1:22:51.640 --> 1:22:54.800
<v Speaker 4>I have to give it a pass, even acknowledging that

1:22:55.120 --> 1:22:58.640
<v Speaker 4>and wanting to take that seriously given the context that

1:22:58.680 --> 1:23:00.840
<v Speaker 4>it was made in and also just the context of

1:23:00.880 --> 1:23:03.439
<v Speaker 4>the rest of the movie, it's just it's not it

1:23:03.479 --> 1:23:06.920
<v Speaker 4>fits the characters in a way, and Vivian would have

1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:09.719
<v Speaker 4>been that nervous and it might have required a little

1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:13.200
<v Speaker 4>bit of that kind of I don't want to say pushiness,

1:23:13.200 --> 1:23:17.639
<v Speaker 4>but like, yeah, to get there, But like, is that great? No?

1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:22.479
<v Speaker 4>Does it sort of work in the movie, yes? And yeah,

1:23:22.520 --> 1:23:25.839
<v Speaker 4>I think again, like contextually for the time, our understanding

1:23:25.880 --> 1:23:28.600
<v Speaker 4>of consent has changed. And I would also just like

1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:31.240
<v Speaker 4>I would, I would assume that like some of those

1:23:31.360 --> 1:23:34.280
<v Speaker 4>more toxic elements of how we considered consent or how

1:23:34.320 --> 1:23:36.120
<v Speaker 4>it was displayed in movies, or what we expected from

1:23:36.120 --> 1:23:39.120
<v Speaker 4>certain characters and movies certainly would have bled into this

1:23:39.320 --> 1:23:41.479
<v Speaker 4>in a way that wasn't great. Like for sure, it's

1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:45.000
<v Speaker 4>not entirely avoidable even by the best queer filmmakers. So

1:23:45.800 --> 1:23:47.479
<v Speaker 4>all those things can be true at the same time.

1:23:47.320 --> 1:23:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, absolutely, And I think that like if this

1:23:51.320 --> 1:23:56.280
<v Speaker 2>movie were made today, it is something that could be fixed, Yeah,

1:23:56.320 --> 1:24:00.519
<v Speaker 2>with slight dialogue adjustments, and the scene could play out

1:24:00.520 --> 1:24:02.280
<v Speaker 2>the exact same way, which I think is like another

1:24:02.320 --> 1:24:05.160
<v Speaker 2>reason why I'm like it. It doesn't feel like it

1:24:05.200 --> 1:24:11.240
<v Speaker 2>is the coercive language is necessary to the scene or

1:24:11.280 --> 1:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>the dynamic like it can be removed, sure.

1:24:15.280 --> 1:24:16.960
<v Speaker 4>And we could take out the what we call this

1:24:17.040 --> 1:24:21.560
<v Speaker 4>like a surprise naked instead of surprise a surprise undressed.

1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Surprise, the jumps care nudity. Yeah.

1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:31.799
<v Speaker 3>Another thing of note to mention regarding this sex scene

1:24:32.520 --> 1:24:37.320
<v Speaker 3>is that the distribution company of this movie, the Samuel

1:24:37.320 --> 1:24:43.280
<v Speaker 3>Goldwyn Company, insisted that the sex scene be cut down,

1:24:44.240 --> 1:24:48.040
<v Speaker 3>but Donna Ditsch refused. She said, hell no, I get

1:24:48.120 --> 1:24:53.960
<v Speaker 3>final cut, and they relented thankfully, which is incredible, incredible,

1:24:54.040 --> 1:24:59.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah right, Yeah. It reminded me of the documentary This

1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:03.680
<v Speaker 3>Film Is Not Yet Rated, which examines how films with

1:25:03.760 --> 1:25:07.760
<v Speaker 3>queer sex scenes are perceived as being more explicit and

1:25:07.840 --> 1:25:13.240
<v Speaker 3>graphic than heterosex scenes, even if the blocking the cinematography,

1:25:13.439 --> 1:25:18.280
<v Speaker 3>the amount of nudity is basically identical to the heterosex scene,

1:25:19.000 --> 1:25:21.479
<v Speaker 3>So movies with queer sex scenes will often get like

1:25:21.760 --> 1:25:25.120
<v Speaker 3>NC seventeen ratings. Now that is not the case for

1:25:25.200 --> 1:25:28.640
<v Speaker 3>Desert Hearts, it is rated are but oftentimes films with

1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:31.519
<v Speaker 3>queer sex scenes will be like rated in such a

1:25:31.520 --> 1:25:33.479
<v Speaker 3>way that it makes them a lot less accessible to

1:25:34.400 --> 1:25:39.160
<v Speaker 3>general audiences. So I just wanted to point that out

1:25:39.200 --> 1:25:40.880
<v Speaker 3>and then also point out the fact that even though

1:25:40.880 --> 1:25:43.880
<v Speaker 3>the sex scene is steamy, it's not graphic.

1:25:44.479 --> 1:25:46.960
<v Speaker 4>No, like I mean, you do get you get nipple

1:25:46.960 --> 1:25:47.879
<v Speaker 4>on nipple, which.

1:25:47.720 --> 1:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Is yes, very fun.

1:25:49.640 --> 1:25:53.800
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yeah, No, it is not particularly graphic I think

1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:56.640
<v Speaker 4>as queer sex scenes, so go in terms of what

1:25:56.640 --> 1:25:59.639
<v Speaker 4>we get in movies, it is on the more graphic end,

1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.360
<v Speaker 4>which is to say that usually they're just super toned down.

1:26:02.439 --> 1:26:04.599
<v Speaker 4>I think for all the reasons that you stated when

1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:06.880
<v Speaker 4>they're afraid to get NC seventeen ratings, because that was

1:26:06.880 --> 1:26:10.120
<v Speaker 4>a real consideration. But no, I think it's a beautifully

1:26:10.160 --> 1:26:14.240
<v Speaker 4>blocked and shot sequence and it's definitely more than we

1:26:14.240 --> 1:26:15.920
<v Speaker 4>were getting at the time, and still more than we

1:26:16.000 --> 1:26:17.760
<v Speaker 4>get in a lot of movies in a way that

1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:22.040
<v Speaker 4>still feels tasteful. I mean as it it tasteful because

1:26:22.040 --> 1:26:24.160
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, let's, you know, bring it, do whatever, but

1:26:24.160 --> 1:26:25.800
<v Speaker 4>like in a way that feels like it makes sense

1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:28.200
<v Speaker 4>in the movie. And I think specifically of like blue

1:26:28.320 --> 1:26:30.960
<v Speaker 4>is the warmest color, which I that sex scene makes

1:26:30.960 --> 1:26:34.960
<v Speaker 4>me so uncomfortable for so many reasons. Yeah, as an

1:26:34.960 --> 1:26:36.519
<v Speaker 4>example on the far side of that, but like, I

1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:38.840
<v Speaker 4>think this one is really well done. I'm really glad

1:26:38.880 --> 1:26:41.360
<v Speaker 4>that she pushed back and had it included how she

1:26:41.439 --> 1:26:44.559
<v Speaker 4>wanted it to be done. But yeah, I mean, our

1:26:44.760 --> 1:26:49.599
<v Speaker 4>existence is queer people is red as inherently hyper sexual

1:26:49.680 --> 1:26:52.880
<v Speaker 4>or sexualized, often by sort of the straight world, and like,

1:26:53.240 --> 1:26:55.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, one of the most common retorts you get

1:26:55.880 --> 1:26:57.880
<v Speaker 4>is like, why are you shoving your sex life down

1:26:57.920 --> 1:27:00.560
<v Speaker 4>our lives? And I'm like, I'm just I'm just existence,

1:27:00.600 --> 1:27:03.040
<v Speaker 4>and I would like to exist as who I am,

1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:05.720
<v Speaker 4>but it is it is read by some people, you know,

1:27:05.800 --> 1:27:10.120
<v Speaker 4>in bad faith, I think, is being this inherently sexualized,

1:27:10.160 --> 1:27:13.600
<v Speaker 4>sexualizing thing. And so yeah, that's definitely playing out in

1:27:13.640 --> 1:27:16.160
<v Speaker 4>the in the movie world for a long time and

1:27:16.200 --> 1:27:20.360
<v Speaker 4>still to this day that that bias exists, so totally

1:27:20.439 --> 1:27:22.479
<v Speaker 4>all the more impressive that this scene ended up being

1:27:22.520 --> 1:27:23.000
<v Speaker 4>what it was.

1:27:23.439 --> 1:27:23.839
<v Speaker 2>Totally.

1:27:24.000 --> 1:27:29.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely, Uh. The movie, believe it or Not, does

1:27:29.439 --> 1:27:30.960
<v Speaker 3>pass the Bechdel test.

1:27:30.960 --> 1:27:36.679
<v Speaker 2>Immediately and basically for the rest of every yes, yep, yes,

1:27:37.800 --> 1:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>nothing really more to say about it passes with flying colors,

1:27:41.880 --> 1:27:45.559
<v Speaker 2>really every pair of women that talk to each other.

1:27:46.040 --> 1:27:48.560
<v Speaker 2>It passes the bechel test. Again. The thing that I

1:27:48.600 --> 1:27:51.000
<v Speaker 2>would single out there because there is some class diversity,

1:27:51.040 --> 1:27:54.599
<v Speaker 2>there's no racial diversity present in the movie. And this

1:27:55.080 --> 1:28:00.360
<v Speaker 2>is not necessarily completely absurd given the period of time

1:28:00.360 --> 1:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and the amount of segregation that would have been present

1:28:03.960 --> 1:28:08.200
<v Speaker 2>in the Reno divorce culture at this time, but that

1:28:08.240 --> 1:28:11.080
<v Speaker 2>does not mean that there were no non white people

1:28:11.200 --> 1:28:14.559
<v Speaker 2>in this environment as I think we're seeing, and just

1:28:14.880 --> 1:28:20.240
<v Speaker 2>I think does play into the very general movie trope

1:28:20.240 --> 1:28:24.439
<v Speaker 2>of a fixation on the white middle to upper class.

1:28:24.040 --> 1:28:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Indeed thousand percent as far as our nipple scale goes,

1:28:27.479 --> 1:28:29.360
<v Speaker 3>where we rate the movie on a scale of zero

1:28:29.400 --> 1:28:33.560
<v Speaker 3>to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1:28:34.120 --> 1:28:37.479
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to go a four point five on this one.

1:28:37.560 --> 1:28:39.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm docking it just a little bit because of that.

1:28:40.479 --> 1:28:42.559
<v Speaker 3>The scene that you can read is a little bit

1:28:42.600 --> 1:28:47.200
<v Speaker 3>too coercive for our liking. And maybe I'm grading it

1:28:47.400 --> 1:28:52.240
<v Speaker 3>on a curve kind of because this is such a groundbreaking,

1:28:52.760 --> 1:28:57.320
<v Speaker 3>important film that paved the way for later films about

1:28:57.400 --> 1:29:00.559
<v Speaker 3>and made by lesbians. And I hope that more people

1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:03.400
<v Speaker 3>watch this movie and that it becomes more a part

1:29:03.439 --> 1:29:06.599
<v Speaker 3>of the zeitgeist, because it should be a better known

1:29:06.720 --> 1:29:11.200
<v Speaker 3>film than it already is. So four point five nipples,

1:29:11.600 --> 1:29:16.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna give one each to Donna Ditch, Jane Rule,

1:29:16.400 --> 1:29:19.800
<v Speaker 3>Helen Shaver, and Patricia Charboneau, and then I'll give my

1:29:19.880 --> 1:29:23.759
<v Speaker 3>half nipple to screenwriter Natalie Cooper.

1:29:24.840 --> 1:29:25.200
<v Speaker 4>Love it.

1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm gonna go four it half as well. I

1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:29.280
<v Speaker 2>just adore this movie. I feel like it's on track

1:29:29.320 --> 1:29:32.599
<v Speaker 2>to become one of my faves. It's so rewatchable, it's

1:29:32.680 --> 1:29:35.760
<v Speaker 2>so beautiful. This is not to shut out a man,

1:29:35.920 --> 1:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>but I'm gonna quickly do stuff.

1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:38.320
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

1:29:38.720 --> 1:29:41.920
<v Speaker 2>The cinematographer is Robert Elswit, who, in addition to being

1:29:42.000 --> 1:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Jake Jillen Hall's godfather, was Paul Thomas Anderson's go to cinematographer.

1:29:47.640 --> 1:29:49.559
<v Speaker 2>This was like the beginning of his career. But he

1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:52.360
<v Speaker 2>we have covered so many movies that he shot. He

1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:55.280
<v Speaker 2>did Bogie Nights, he did Punched Drunk Love, he did Gellie.

1:29:55.720 --> 1:29:57.040
<v Speaker 2>He just wow, Wow.

1:29:57.920 --> 1:30:02.320
<v Speaker 3>The last episode, well we have redo it. Who can say, oh.

1:30:02.200 --> 1:30:03.320
<v Speaker 4>My goodness, please.

1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:06.439
<v Speaker 2>There will be blood in her advice mission impossibilvies like

1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>he is like shot so many reties and this is

1:30:10.400 --> 1:30:14.080
<v Speaker 2>so beautiful and I just wanted to shout out that

1:30:14.120 --> 1:30:17.240
<v Speaker 2>it's just like very beautifully shot as well. But back

1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:21.519
<v Speaker 2>to women, the only people who matter. I am going

1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to give it four and a half nipples for all

1:30:22.960 --> 1:30:26.080
<v Speaker 2>the reasons we've discussed, and I'm going to give those

1:30:26.160 --> 1:30:29.320
<v Speaker 2>distribute those nipples to Donna Ditsch. I'm going to give

1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>one to Jane rule Icon she was so cool.

1:30:33.080 --> 1:30:33.200
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

1:30:33.439 --> 1:30:36.759
<v Speaker 2>And then yeah, I will distribute them between Hell and Schaeffer,

1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Patricia Charboneau, Audre Lindley, and Andre Akers, who plays Silver.

1:30:41.640 --> 1:30:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I love Silver.

1:30:42.960 --> 1:30:44.839
<v Speaker 3>Yay, how about you, Emily.

1:30:45.360 --> 1:30:48.320
<v Speaker 4>I think I'm gonna also I was. I was struggling

1:30:48.360 --> 1:30:49.599
<v Speaker 4>between like a four and a four and a half

1:30:49.640 --> 1:30:52.160
<v Speaker 4>as well. I adored this movie. I think it's fantastic.

1:30:52.160 --> 1:30:54.479
<v Speaker 4>I also think it holds up really well in general.

1:30:55.200 --> 1:30:57.519
<v Speaker 4>There was a complete lack of racial diversity in it.

1:30:57.560 --> 1:31:00.080
<v Speaker 4>That again, even given the time, like there would have

1:31:00.160 --> 1:31:03.600
<v Speaker 4>been people existing in this space that I want to

1:31:04.160 --> 1:31:04.679
<v Speaker 4>I want.

1:31:04.479 --> 1:31:07.679
<v Speaker 2>To send you though, this really really really great Ebony

1:31:07.760 --> 1:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>article from I think the sixties or seventies about the

1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:15.280
<v Speaker 2>specifically black divorce scene in Reno, which was also very

1:31:15.360 --> 1:31:18.200
<v Speaker 2>vibrant and fascinating, and no one talks about it, and

1:31:18.400 --> 1:31:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to see a movie about it, so I'll

1:31:20.280 --> 1:31:22.200
<v Speaker 2>then I'll send you that link to include, and.

1:31:22.320 --> 1:31:24.439
<v Speaker 4>Please please also just send it to me. I want

1:31:24.439 --> 1:31:26.439
<v Speaker 4>to read this. It sounds fantastic, it's terrific.

1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I want more. I want Reno cinema to be a

1:31:29.760 --> 1:31:33.439
<v Speaker 2>thriving subgenre. It's so interesting, it feels like a rich text.

1:31:33.520 --> 1:31:36.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so I think because of that, and because of

1:31:36.120 --> 1:31:38.920
<v Speaker 4>the slightly dubious consent in the sex scene, and all

1:31:38.960 --> 1:31:40.920
<v Speaker 4>the reasons you've already talked about I'll go with the

1:31:40.920 --> 1:31:42.960
<v Speaker 4>four and a half as well, because I just love

1:31:43.000 --> 1:31:45.479
<v Speaker 4>this movie too much not to get that close to

1:31:45.520 --> 1:31:49.679
<v Speaker 4>a five. And I will also evenly distribute it between

1:31:50.160 --> 1:31:51.920
<v Speaker 4>all of the women who are involved in making this

1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:56.320
<v Speaker 4>film and those beautiful horses whose faces we got to see.

1:31:56.600 --> 1:31:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh shout outful faces horse girl representation.

1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:04.040
<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you so much, Emily for joining us for

1:32:04.080 --> 1:32:07.800
<v Speaker 3>this amazing discussion. Please come back any time, truly.

1:32:07.800 --> 1:32:10.599
<v Speaker 4>Oh, thank you so much. I would love to come back.

1:32:10.479 --> 1:32:16.240
<v Speaker 3>For g Lee, just kidding. Tell us where people can

1:32:16.680 --> 1:32:19.960
<v Speaker 3>follow your work, follow you on social media, et cetera.

1:32:20.479 --> 1:32:24.479
<v Speaker 4>Sure, I am extremely online, so it's pretty easy to do.

1:32:25.439 --> 1:32:28.640
<v Speaker 4>You can follow well, I'd say my public Instagram is

1:32:28.680 --> 1:32:31.439
<v Speaker 4>my DJ account because I'm a dirty DJ, so it's

1:32:31.520 --> 1:32:34.880
<v Speaker 4>just DJ Underscore milbot m I L L B O T.

1:32:35.640 --> 1:32:39.120
<v Speaker 4>I'm also at Emilymills dot oorg for my sort of

1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:41.559
<v Speaker 4>general professional stuff. And if you want to follow my

1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:43.880
<v Speaker 4>band or Damsel Trash, because you got you got me

1:32:43.880 --> 1:32:46.160
<v Speaker 4>coming up of a gig weekend, so I got to

1:32:46.200 --> 1:32:48.120
<v Speaker 4>shout out my band Daniel Trash, which just put out

1:32:48.120 --> 1:32:50.600
<v Speaker 4>a brand new album. People might be interested if you

1:32:50.680 --> 1:32:53.439
<v Speaker 4>like fun, silly punk rock with lots of feminism and

1:32:54.080 --> 1:32:59.160
<v Speaker 4>sex and politics. I love it at Damsel Trash pretty

1:32:59.200 --> 1:33:02.040
<v Speaker 4>much everywhere and on band camp as well. And shout

1:33:02.040 --> 1:33:04.639
<v Speaker 4>out to Megan Rose, my partner crime and Damsel Trash,

1:33:04.640 --> 1:33:06.799
<v Speaker 4>who can be with us today but is an incredible

1:33:06.840 --> 1:33:07.559
<v Speaker 4>human being as well.

1:33:07.640 --> 1:33:09.320
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, we'll have the both of you back for

1:33:09.360 --> 1:33:10.520
<v Speaker 3>a different episode.

1:33:10.600 --> 1:33:13.320
<v Speaker 4>We would love that very much. This has been such

1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:15.760
<v Speaker 4>a pleasure. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, thank

1:33:15.760 --> 1:33:16.960
<v Speaker 4>you so appreciate it.

1:33:17.560 --> 1:33:22.120
<v Speaker 3>You can follow us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You

1:33:22.240 --> 1:33:27.360
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1:33:27.479 --> 1:33:30.920
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1:33:31.040 --> 1:33:34.600
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1:33:34.800 --> 1:33:38.920
<v Speaker 3>back catalog of around two hundred bonus episodes. So if

1:33:38.920 --> 1:33:42.000
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1:33:46.600 --> 1:33:50.240
<v Speaker 3>and that is five dollars a month. And with that

1:33:50.680 --> 1:33:53.519
<v Speaker 3>it's me Caitlin signing off alone because everyone else had

1:33:53.520 --> 1:33:58.240
<v Speaker 3>to run, but rest assured that we are all going

1:33:58.280 --> 1:34:01.280
<v Speaker 3>to hop on a train together, maybe for the next

1:34:01.400 --> 1:34:09.880
<v Speaker 3>forty minutes, maybe to spend the rest of our lives together. Bye.

1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:13.280
<v Speaker 2>The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and

1:34:13.360 --> 1:34:15.560
<v Speaker 2>produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

1:34:15.439 --> 1:34:18.920
<v Speaker 3>And Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by

1:34:19.040 --> 1:34:20.639
<v Speaker 3>Sophie Lichtermann.

1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:23.639
<v Speaker 2>And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's

1:34:23.720 --> 1:34:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Me and our logo and merch and all of our

1:34:27.120 --> 1:34:30.800
<v Speaker 2>artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever Heard

1:34:30.840 --> 1:34:34.080
<v Speaker 2>of her? Oh My God? And our theme song, by

1:34:34.080 --> 1:34:36.200
<v Speaker 2>the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:39.200
<v Speaker 3>With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

1:34:38.720 --> 1:34:41.559
<v Speaker 2>Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

1:34:41.920 --> 1:34:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Aristotle Acevedo.

1:34:43.720 --> 1:34:47.559
<v Speaker 3>For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash

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<v Speaker 3>Bechdel Cast