1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks. 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: And we continue now a part two of our conversation 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: with Jeff Jeskovic. Right after these brief messages from our 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: generals sponsors, is your mom and grandmother in the court? 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: My mother and my aunt were. 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: Were they beside themselves? 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: They were? 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: They had to have known you were getting realroaded and 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: watching every step other. 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: Well, no, they were beside themselves at the verdict. But 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: prior to that, they believed the system worked and they 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: thought I was going to be found not guilty, as 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: did I And. 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you did you? 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: Well? I didn't initially, and you know, as a result 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: of that, I did feel depressed. And you know, at 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: one point I'm made a suicide attempt, which resulted in 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: my being involuntarily hospitalized. But at some point after that. 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: When did you make a suicide attempt? 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: That was third So I was in accounted jail for 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: thirty five days and then I got bailed out, and 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: a few days later I made a suicide attempt. I 23 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: took an entire bottle of extra strength talent holes which 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 2: you know hadn't been opened, and I went to sleep 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: and I intended never to wake up again, and. 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: I did they at sixteen years old. 27 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 2: At sixteen years old, because I felt, Look, I thought 28 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: I was going back to my life, and there was 29 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: no going back to it. You know, I was a 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: hated figure in peak skill. Everybody presumed my guilt. I 31 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to go back to school, and none of 32 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: the kids parents were willing to let them play with me. 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: I felt it was dangerous just to be outside. So 34 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: I felt like my life was over. But at some point, 35 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, I began to believe I would be found 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: not guilty, and you know, you start to hope that. 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: And when I would question my lawyer about well, what 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: are you doing, what's our strategy? How are we gonna 39 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: I mean, he said, look, you're a kid, I'm the lawyer. Right, 40 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 2: you already thought you were smarter than adults. Once look 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 2: at whether that ended up, Just sit back and let 42 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: me do my job with that argument. That's that's what 43 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: I did. 44 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: So is it your belief that this attorney was a 45 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: jacket or just overworked. 46 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: I it's my belief that he threw the case. Because 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: when I've met with many lawyers since I've been home, 48 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: and they were all curious who defended me, and when 49 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: I mentioned his name, they're all surprised because they said 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 2: that they've either tried cases with or against them, or 51 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 2: knew of his reputation, and he was good, a good 52 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: trial lawyer. So I think that he I think, but 53 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: can't prove that he threw the case because just the 54 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: deficiencies that I outlined already present, the alibi, emphasized, the DNA, 55 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: you have to challenge the confession. I mean, these are 56 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: all elementary things. A good third year law student would 57 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: know that. 58 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: Do you think public defenders get overwhelmed? 59 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: I do. I think that you know, they have way 60 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: too large a case slowed. It's not uncommon for one 61 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: public defender to have a one hundred case at the 62 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: same time. 63 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: They that's too many. There's no way you can do 64 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: somebody justice. 65 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: That way exactly, And it's a different the big budgetary 66 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: difference between the district attorney's office public defender's office, and 67 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: that translates into you know, less less manpower, less investigators, 68 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: less experts. You have to a lot of time, the 69 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: public defenders have to resort to ask the judge to 70 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: allocate discretionary funding for experts and a lot of times 71 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: those requests are denied because the judges are trying to 72 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: keep the cost of trials down. 73 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: So now you're seventeen, I think one am. 74 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: I'm seventeen at the trial and you know then I'm 75 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: convicted and I'm sentenced. 76 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: And also murder rate stuff, and you're being tried as adult. 77 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: You're going to big boy prison. 78 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: Correct, exactly right, Almyra crests aslutely been terrified. 79 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: I was, and you're not a violent person, and I'm 80 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: not a violent person, and you're going to most violent 81 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: place on earth, that's right. What was the place Elmyra 82 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: Correctional Facility. There was three or four stabbings or cuttings 83 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: every day. There was a lot of violence that didn't 84 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: involve weapons, and there was gang activity and so collectively 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: there was a general environment of violence and adrealine that 86 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: permeated the air. I have a target on my back, 87 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: so I'm worried that people are going to discover that 88 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: I've incarcerated for a rape along with the murder. Because 89 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: there's a vigil antimantality wherech people convicted of sex offenses. 90 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: So yes, I really and my understanding is there's a 91 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: hierarchy in jail. But if you've heard a child or rape, 92 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: you're a target, correct, that's you had both? Yeah, right, 93 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: So how did you manage in jail? 94 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: Well, it was I mean you learned certain survival tactics 95 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: and you know, I would study people for a couple 96 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: of months before I even said hello. And if something's happening, 97 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: you put your back to the wall, and you know, 98 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: just be quiet when you're in your cell and try 99 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: not to draw attention so you can, you know, and 100 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: people that are engaged in you know, gambling or other 101 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: high risk activity, try to stay far away from them. 102 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 2: But even with that, that's just things to minimize. But 103 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: even with that, I mean they were in the course 104 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: of my sixteen years, there were maybe maybe like sixty 105 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 2: eight times I was I was beat up. One time 106 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: I almost lost my life. I got hit on the 107 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: side of my head with ten pound weigh plates repeatedly. 108 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: Why they thought I was a rapist, So you'd just 109 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: be minding your own business. They just beat the hell 110 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: out of you because of what your charge was. Yeah, 111 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: that could, Yes, that could happen at any point a 112 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: few times a day. 113 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: Is there any way a guy like you could find 114 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: safety in jail. Is there could you get go to work? 115 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but I mean, is there 116 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: any way. 117 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: I mean, just the tactics that I mentioned to you. 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: When you get older and you get a little bit hardened, 119 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: and you know, as I got into my mid twenties, 120 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, here and there, I wouldn't do 121 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: that bad, you know, in the in the fight, you know, 122 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: h yeah, that's that's kind of pretty much, you know it. 123 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I do think that there were 124 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: some of a few older prisoners that you know, helped 125 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 2: me to avoid certain leave the kid alone or whatever. 126 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: You know, they had some street credit themselves, being you know, 127 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: someone that was an old timer, so I did get along. 128 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: Why would they Why would they do that for you? 129 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: I think that, I mean, I think that that was 130 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: almost like, I mean, there's a there's a certain amount 131 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: of gratification that's involved with putting someone under your wing, 132 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: like you feel like you're doing something good. I guess, 133 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: or I'm to the extent that there's any type of 134 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: fatherly instinct there. You know, this could have been my 135 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: kid or you know, they had some I mean that, 136 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: I mean, those are my theories you know, on it. 137 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't like they ever asked me for anything. 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: They weren't trying to get any sexual favors for me. 139 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: They weren't asking for money, or they weren't extorting me. 140 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: It wasn't any of those things. 141 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Was there a single moment you weren't terrified on Joe? 142 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: No, No, there wasn't. 143 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: What is that? Due to a psyche? You have? 144 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: It make it makes you hyper, It makes you hyper vigilant. 145 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Do you think it's different for a person that knows 146 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: he's guilty versus a person that knows. 147 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: He's innocent, Because somebody like I met a lot of 148 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: people that were guilty, and in conversation with them, they 149 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: would say, look, I did this to myself. I did 150 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: what I did, I got caught. I have to pay 151 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: for that. So I'm just I'm not going to cry 152 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: about it. I'm just gonna make the best of it 153 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: I that I can and try to go home as 154 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: quickly as I can. I could never get to that 155 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: place because I knew that I was innocent, and I 156 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: didn't know how long this was going to go on for. 157 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I in a way, I kind of lived 158 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: from appeal to appeal in my mind. You know, I 159 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: thought I ignored that was only hope you had, right, 160 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: I ignored the fact that I had a fifteen life sentence. 161 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: I just thought, look, I just have to hold on 162 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: for a year or two, at which point the next 163 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: appeal is going to be decided, which I'm confident I'm 164 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: going to win and go home because I'm innocent and 165 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: I believe in the system. 166 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: And you're never going to get parole because part of 167 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: the thing about parole is showing that you have serious 168 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: remars for a crime you committed and you're maintaining your innocence. 169 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Of the pro boards looking at you like, well, this 170 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: guy had learned his lessons in the back. Correct I 171 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: bet that. I mean, I'm guessing. 172 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's true. You're exactly right. I don't't 173 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: jump too far ahead. But I got denied parole for that. 174 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: Very reasonable because so the thing is, if you are 175 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: innocent and in prison, if you want parole, you may 176 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: have to copy a second time to something you haven't 177 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: done just to get your freedom. 178 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. 179 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: That's the irony of ironies. 180 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: I agree. 181 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: So you're in prison, and how's the I know you're appealing, 182 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: of course, So how does that who go? How take 183 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: me through that process? 184 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: Sure? So I have a public defender, but not the 185 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: same person and not from the same agency. Thank god, 186 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: right exactly, this lawyer actually did a great job for me. 187 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: So she raised ten issues. She raised the issue by innocence. 188 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: That took the form of arguing that there was legally 189 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: insufficient evidence, that the prosecution hadn't proven guilt on a 190 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: reasonable doubt, and that the vertic was against the way 191 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: to the evidence. All of that centering around the DNA. 192 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: My Fifth Amendment rights being violated was argued by the 193 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: manner in which I had been question My right to confrontation. 194 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: Sixth Amendment was argued because of the judge allowing the 195 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: polygraphis to give his opinion while banning my lawyer from 196 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: cross examining him on his methods. The evidence being thrown 197 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: out was raised. The judge being biased against me was raised. 198 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: In total, ten issues of law were raised the appellate division. 199 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: They wrote that I was not in custody, that I 200 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: was free to come and go as I wanted, and 201 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: therefore they ruled the statements were admissible. 202 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: But you weren't right. You were driven there by cops 203 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: and your parents weren't around, how were you free to 204 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: come and go? 205 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: I completely agree with you. They wrote that there was 206 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: overwhelming evidence of guilt, which is kind of a head scratcher. 207 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: They have this confession obtained under questionable circumstances, no matching 208 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: DNA and no matching DNA, so I don't understand that, 209 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: and you wet your confession right, right, So those two rulings, 210 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,239 Speaker 2: and then they they they rejected my argument on the polygraph. 211 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: They said, well, because I put the statements into question, 212 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: that that was not, you know, a reversible error. Then 213 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: they knocked out the rest of my arguments. In one sentence, 214 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: they wrote that they looked at my remaining contentions and 215 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: found them to either be without merit or else not 216 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: preserved for review. And they ruled against me five toughing 217 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: on that, and it was all downhill from there. Every 218 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: argument motion was denied, in one word, denied. The Court 219 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: of Appeals, New York's highest court. You have to get 220 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: permission from them before they'll agree to allow you to 221 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: appeal to them. So they declined to give me permission. 222 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 2: I lost in federal court because my attorney was given 223 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: the wrong information by the court clerk which resulted in 224 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: my habeas corpus petition arriving for four dys late, which 225 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 2: the then west Chester District Attorney, Jeanine Piro or she 226 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: oh who whoa whoa who Jeanine Piro, the Fox Newswoman. 227 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: Yes, you went in front of her. 228 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: No, if she was, she was the district attorney, so 229 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: she wasn't the DA when I was convicted, but she 230 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: took office before my first appeal, so she was the 231 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: one who kept the ball rolling against me. She's the 232 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: one that fought seven appeals. She's the one that repeatedly 233 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: blocked me from getting further DNA testing. She's the one 234 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: that got the federal court to rule that I was 235 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: my being late four days by the. 236 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: Court because I think the show is called Justice with 237 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: Judy or something like that. 238 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Justice with Jeanine Piro, Yeah Janine, Yeah right, Holy smokes. 239 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: So the court ruled that I was late, So I 240 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: lost that way. Now the case is no longer about 241 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: my issues. It's only about whether or not the federal 242 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: court ruling that I was late, whether that ruling was 243 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 2: correct or not. So I appeal that to the United States, 244 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: excuse me, to the to the Federal Court of Appeals, 245 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: I got permission to appeal to them, and my lawyer 246 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: are I have a different lawyer now? My lawyer argued 247 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: that this was not a lateness caused by me or 248 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 2: my attorney, but by the court clerk, that upholding a 249 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: ruling like that would cause a miscarriage of justice to continue, 250 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: and lastly, that overturning the procedure of ruling would open 251 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: the door for more sophisticated DNA. So, once again Pierro's 252 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: office opposed, and the Federal Court of Appeals, which included 253 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 2: future US Supreme Court Justice Sonya so to Mayor, they 254 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: upheld the court's ruling. 255 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: Hold it come out. Now it goes to the Federal 256 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: court and I get time barred. And Sonya Mayor, yeah, 257 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: who is now on the United States Supreme Court. Right, 258 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: her office denied this too. Yes, okay, you know what 259 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: I found interesting. You've got ultra right and ultra left, 260 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: and they're both arriving the same conclusion to not give 261 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: you a chance. Right, It's not a political thing. It's 262 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: just a systematic quagmar of crop thing. Right, that is 263 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: unbelievable to me. 264 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: And then my lawyer moved to reargue it in front 265 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: of Soda Mayora and her colleague, and she denied the reargument. 266 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: Motion, so she wouldn't even hear it. Right. 267 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: We asked, look, you got the decision wrong because of XYZ, 268 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: so we're not only asking you to reconsider it, but 269 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: we were requesting that all the judges on this circuit 270 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: hear the issue and vote. And they said, no, that's 271 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: not necessary. We're just upholding the decision we already made. 272 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: I gotta believe. And there's a lot of legal stuff here, 273 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: and I mean, you know, we've all watched Law and Order, 274 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: so we think we know what we know, but it 275 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: means we don't know anything unless we're attorneys. Just layman's terms. 276 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they hear it? And even taking yourself out 277 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: of it, which has got to be very difficult, but 278 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: why wouldn't you hear that? Is it? Because you get 279 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: so many thousands appeals you can only hear so many 280 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: and it's a time thing. I mean, why wouldn't you 281 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: hear that? Why would she not hear it? 282 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: Well, there's two there's two tensions in the law which 283 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: played themselves out there. So one of them is what 284 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: I'll call proceduralism. Versus substance of justice, proceduralism, the court's 285 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: obsession at well, did we get the form right, not 286 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: the actual decision. 287 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: So it gives a crap about a form when you're 288 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: talking about a person's life. And by the way, there 289 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: may be somebody out there who actually did kill and 290 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: rape somebody that could be doing it somebody else too. 291 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: If we did get it wrong, we need to go 292 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: back and do some police work. I mean, I don't 293 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: get it to make any sense. 294 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: To me, completely agree. And the other thing is what 295 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: I'll call finality of conviction versus accuracy. In other words, 296 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: the competing ideas. On one hand, Look, you had your 297 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 2: day in court, you lost. You know how many times 298 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: are we going to keep going through? Is ever enough 299 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: enough that idea versus you know, accuracy? Who cares about 300 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: a final conclusion if your final conclusion is in error. 301 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: So those those two things I think play play a 302 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: big part and can run for convictions being uphold on it. 303 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: And it played a role in my losing in federal 304 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: court twice. And then I went to the US Supreme 305 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: Court and he declined to grant me permission. And so 306 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: now my appials are over that seven appeals have lost. 307 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: I'm eleven years in the only way back in the court, 308 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: So now you're twenty eight. Yeah, that's right. 309 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: You've had your liberty stripped from you for eleven years. Yes, 310 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: because you were a kid from a poor mother in 311 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: an apartment who got railroad and couldn't defend yourself. Are 312 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: you at this point now out of this sixteen year 313 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: old fear factor and into just being angry as hell? 314 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't describe myself as angry. I was still 315 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: I was still like fearful, like you know, what the 316 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: hell is going to happen to me? 317 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: Now? 318 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: Am I ever going to get out of here? So 319 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: the only way. 320 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: Are you crying yourself to sleep at night? Yeah? On 321 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: some night? Sam? 322 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: Sure? Now I have to hide it and make sure 323 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: that none of the other prisoners hear. 324 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: That, though I get it. Weakness, sure exactly. Boy. I 325 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: wish everybody that was listening could have seen his face. 326 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: He's been so matter of fact until just then, because 327 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: then you just raise your eyebrows at me and look 328 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: down at me like, don't cry in prison, right, And 329 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: like a father would say to a child like you 330 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: on prison, You're going to pay for that cost the look. Yeah, 331 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: you're right, that's a scary look. Yeah, that's a look 332 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: of that'll get you killed or riped yourself. 333 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree. 334 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. 335 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: So the only way back in a court is if 336 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: you can find some new evidence, or if the court 337 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: makes a ruling, you know, and applies it to old cases. 338 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: So I don't have any money, my family has no 339 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: money to hire a lawyer or an investigator, and obviously, 340 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: from behind bars, I wasn't going to be doing any 341 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: reinvestigating myself. Hence a letter writing campaign. For four years. 342 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: I wrote large firms, I wrote nonprofits, I wrote faith 343 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: based organizations. If I could come up with a line 344 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: of reasoning or action that somebody could take which could 345 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: set in motion a chain of events that culminated into 346 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: my getting the legal representation I needed, then I wrote letters. 347 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: I wrote an uncountable amount of letters for four years, 348 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: never getting responses other than the occasional no. And then 349 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: I went. 350 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: To the people were kind enough to write you back 351 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: to say. 352 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: Note most of the time no, but the few people 353 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: that there are a few places that did did write 354 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 2: me back and say no. A few of those were 355 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: law firms, and they said they didn't have time to 356 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: take my case for free, but they made sure that 357 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: I knew exactly how much money they wanted should I 358 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 2: be able to scrape it together. Then I went to 359 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: the parole board, where as we've went over, you know, 360 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: I maintained my innocence, and you know, their decision said, 361 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: you know that you have a great educational records, you 362 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: have a good disciplinary record, you got some letters of support, 363 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: including from a prison an employee, but nonetheless, you've been 364 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: found guilty of a brutal and senseless crime, and so 365 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: to release you would be to lessen as seriousness. And 366 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: they ordered me to appear in front of them two 367 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: years later. And at that point it seemed kind of 368 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: certain that I was going to die in prison for 369 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: a crime I didn't commit. 370 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: Did you ever think I'm going to cop to this 371 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: to get out of here? 372 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: No? No, I consider that. I considered that at two junctures. 373 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: I considered that when the prison authorities were pressuring me 374 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: to take and complete the sex offender Training program, which 375 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: they said, look, the parole board is going to want 376 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: to see that you took a program that addresses your crime. 377 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: That would be the sex Offender Training program. But the 378 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: problem with completing that was there was a guilted mission 379 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: requirement tied to it, kind of similar to like an 380 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: AA where if you don't admit you ever problem, you 381 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: can't begin to And so they wanted you to admit 382 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: you were guilty to the instructor, to the other prisoners. 383 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: They they wanted a description from beginning to end. They 384 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: wanted it all in writing, and so failure to complete 385 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: any element of that would result in being removed from 386 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: the program and deemed to have refused to complete. So 387 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: I did consider briefly to do that, but I decided 388 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: not to do that because, first of all, a cores 389 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: false confession was how I got there in the first place, 390 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 2: so I wasn't about to repeat that. It's again correct, 391 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: So I went the other way this time. 392 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: But the thing is, you're literally willing to spend the 393 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: rest of your life in jail for claiming your own innocence. Yes, 394 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: what at catch twenty two? I mean, what do you do? 395 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: You have no help? 396 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: Right, So I came up with this plan in my head, 397 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: which I attempted to carry out at the parole boards. 398 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: So I knew they were in the habit of rubbers 399 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: damp denying applications of anyone applying for parole that was 400 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 2: convicted of a violent crime. So I thought, look, I'm 401 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: gonna raise the issue of my innocence. I'm going to 402 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: cite the DNA. But you know, they didn't want to 403 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 2: hear that. You know, I did briefly consider, you know, 404 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 2: to express remorse and take responsibility. I did briefly consider 405 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: that at the board, but in the end I decided 406 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: not to do that. And part of that was not 407 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 2: just it was the same line of reasoning that I 408 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: had used in deciding not to take the sex Offender 409 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: Training program. Plus, you know I already decided this before 410 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: on the Sex Offender Training program to not take it. 411 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: So I so, I, you know, just held to my ground. 412 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: Along the way, yeah, absent the judges and the prole 413 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: But along the way, did you win some believers? 414 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? I did that. They were there, Yes, I did. 415 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: They were In general. I didn't talk about my case 416 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 2: because I wouldn't want to attract attention, right, But there 417 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: were a couple of people I broke that role with 418 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: so they believed me. I had to count one of 419 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: my counselors believe me, you know. 420 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: Not pacifying you, but really believed you. 421 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: I think that she did. I mean she would periodically 422 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: ask me, you know, how are my legal efforts going? 423 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: And you know, she let me make a few phone calls. 424 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: He you know, technically wasn't supposed to let me do so, 425 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: I mean, to the small extent she could do anything. 426 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: So those people, but most importantly, I continued the letter 427 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: writing campaign even you know, after I was denied parole, 428 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: and I ended up with the ultimate believer at that point. 429 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: So one of the letters that I wrote, which was 430 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: in care of a publishing I wrote a book author 431 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 2: in care of a publishing company, and the publishing company, 432 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: instead of forwarding it to the book author, sent it 433 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: to Claudia Whitman, who's an investigator. And when I sent her, 434 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: she wrote me, when I sent her the DNA tests off, 435 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: she instantly believed in me because she had never heard 436 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: of a case where the DNA excluded somebody and yet 437 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: a conviction took place. So she tried to get people 438 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: to take my case. She gave me ideas, and one 439 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 2: of her ideas was the winning one. She suggested that 440 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: I write the Innocence Project again, and I told her, well, 441 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: I've written them before when they got started back in 442 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: ninety two ninety three, and she said, yeah, but given 443 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: the DNA data Bank has been created, the prior denials 444 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: irrelevance to just write them. So I did. I filled 445 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: out their application. I forgot about it. I looked for 446 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: other ways to get representation, none of which worked. Simultaneous 447 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: to that, she was lobbying them from outside the organization. 448 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: She got other respected legal entities to lobby them to 449 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 2: take my case. And then I got lucky that one 450 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: of the intake workers, Maggie Taylor, when the lawyers didn't 451 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: want to take my case, she represented it again, and 452 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: when they didn't want to take it a second time, 453 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: she represented it a third time. Her winning idea, which 454 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: was one that I suggested to her, was what about 455 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: the DNA data Bank? So I got their representation. That 456 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: was the first of three keys. Second key was Piro 457 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: left office and her successor was not as dug in, 458 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: and she was willing to give me the test. As 459 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: I hear through the grapevine, they both hated each other 460 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: and Piero was in the middle of running for Attorney General. 461 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: So I think her successor let me get the testing, 462 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 2: hoping that I'd be exonerated so as to damage her 463 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 2: run for attorney to office political it was, but look, 464 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: you know what, So that was the two or three keys. 465 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: And the third key was they took the crime scene 466 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: DNA evidence which didn't match me, and put it in 467 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 2: the DNA data bank and it matched. It hit it 468 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: matched the actual perpetrator whose DNA was in that data bank. 469 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 2: Because left free when I was doing time for his crime, 470 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: he killed a second victim just three and a half 471 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: years later, who was a school teacher and had two children. 472 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: So my career in peak skill the same city, Yes 473 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: he had, he'd lived amongst everybody. Yes, Yes, he did 474 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: the very thing we talked about happening, Yes, and which 475 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: is yes, by railroading you. They ignored that there was 476 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: a murder on the loose, and he did it again. 477 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. 478 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 2: So on September twentieth, two thousand and six, the convictions 479 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: of returned I was released. I went back to court 480 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 2: November two, two thousand and six, at which point all 481 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: the charges were dismissed against me on actual innocence grounds, 482 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: and he was subsequently arrested and convicted of the crime. 483 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: Did he admit it he did. Confronted with the DNA, 484 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: he admitted that he was the person that did it. 485 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: Why did he kill this fifteen year old good all 486 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: these years ago. 487 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: Well, there's a video of him confessing to it on YouTube, 488 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: and in that video he says that he was in 489 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: the park. So there's Hillcrest condominiums, and then there's Hillcrest 490 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: to school and then there's like a thick woods with 491 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: a McCadam path in it. And she was there to 492 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: take pictures in connection with her photography class. The teacher 493 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 2: had assigned a male student to like a buddy system 494 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: to go with her. The male student played hooky on 495 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: the assignment. So she goes from the high school to 496 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: her home with her sister. Her sister goes to the restroom, 497 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 2: comes out and Angela's not there. She goes it, went 498 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: with her camera on her own to the park and 499 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: while taking pictures on that McCadam path, she had the 500 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: misfortune of coming across Cunningham, Stephen Cunningham, who was there 501 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: in the park and who was high, and he attacked, 502 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: murdered and raped her. 503 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you're playing with feball right, and end up. 504 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: Doing sixteen years from age seventeen to thirty two. 505 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: Wow, Jeff, folks, there's redemption coming. I promise we'll be 506 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: right back. Something I learned and reading about your story. 507 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: The numbers say that there are probably one hundred and 508 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: twenty thousand people wrongfully convicted in the United States today, 509 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 1: right Who comes up with that number? 510 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: Well, there's it's an estimation. There's a Wayne State University 511 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: study that essinaly meates ten thousand people are wrongfully convicted 512 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: each year. 513 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: So when you're listening to Jeff's story before we go 514 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: on to the good that has come out of all 515 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: of this, you know, it's if you're hearing it, you've 516 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: got to be thinking, oh my gosh, it's terrible. Not 517 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: the way our so siety is supposed to work. This 518 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: is not the way our justice system is supposed to work. 519 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: You need to make it a little more personal. Jeff 520 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: could be your son, your nephew, your uncle, your brother, 521 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: It could be you, it could be your daughter. If 522 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: it can happen to Jeff, and it can happen to 523 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: the one hundred and twenty thousand people that are buried 524 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: in our prison system the United States that are in 525 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: fact innocent, and it happens all the time that we 526 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: see a news report of somebody who was who was 527 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted by some overzealous cops who were more worried 528 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 1: about the win than the justice. We see it all 529 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: the time, and sure we shake our heads and say 530 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: it's bad, but we need to put a face on it. 531 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: We live in this world and we're held accountable by 532 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: the same justice system, and this very thing could happen 533 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: to any of us or any of our loved ones, 534 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: and that needs to be I think starkly pointed out 535 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: that we need to care about this story not because 536 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: we get emotionally connected to the long explanation and the 537 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: long form explanation of the story, which is unbelievably gut 538 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: wrenching and interesting, but because it's the world we live 539 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: in and it could happen to us. Are you traumatized 540 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: from it? 541 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: Sure? Of course. I mean I went for about six years. 542 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: I went four times a week with mets of mental 543 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: health professionals and helping them get over the trauma of 544 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: that and in difficulties in reintegrating and managing life. I'll say, now, 545 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: having been home for eighteen years, I mean I feel 546 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: like the symptoms are much more controlled. I won't say 547 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: that that there's no left over, but it's much more 548 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: minimized than before. There was also the social stigma. You 549 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: were in prison for sixteen years wrongfully, but you were 550 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: there for sixteen years, so how much of that rubbed 551 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: off on? It was safe to be alone someplace with you. 552 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: My extended family, which you know, overwhelming majority of whom 553 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: never came to see me. The few that did would come, 554 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: disappear for three years, come disappear for three years. My 555 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: mother was a consistent visitor, but then in the last 556 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: six years I was lucky if I saw her once 557 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: every six months. My brother came three times in sixteen years, 558 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: not at all in the last decade, and my grandmother 559 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: passed away six years in. So my point in giving 560 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: all those details is for most and purposes, I did 561 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: the time by myself, so my extended family became like 562 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: strangers to me, So that was awkward when I'd meet 563 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: up with them. Technology had passed me by cell phone, GPS, 564 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 2: Internet hadn't been created. Culture was different, cities looked just 565 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: familiar enough to feel like I was in a parallel world, 566 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: one that I had placed that I didn't belong in. 567 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: I was always passed over for gainful employment, my lack 568 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: stability of housing, at one point a couple of weeks 569 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: away from a homeless shelter, So it was a very 570 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: difficult initial five years of freedom. I think it was 571 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: particularly difficult for me because I had been in prison 572 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: from seventeen to thirty two, not like twenty five to 573 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: forty or thirty to forty five. So I had never 574 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: lived alone. I had never went shopping. I hadn't had 575 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: a driver's license. 576 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: You never got to be an adult. 577 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: I never got to be an adult, so I think 578 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: the transition was particularly difficult. I mean, I remember dean 579 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: of Mercy College, which I gave me a scholarship to 580 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 2: finish the bachelor's a great because I had gotten the 581 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: ged and associates another year towards the bachelors while in 582 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 2: prison at the time that funding was cut. So Mercy 583 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: College gave me a scholarship to finish the bachelors. And 584 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: one time the dean, who was the point person on campus, 585 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 2: took me shopping, and I remember in terms of like 586 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: the cleaning supplies and even the food items. I so 587 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: didn't know how to shop that I would save the 588 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: containers and bring them with me back to the supermarket 589 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: when I would go shopping, and just to buy the 590 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: same things all over again. 591 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: Wow, your life was taken from me. 592 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I missed births, deaths, weddings, rites of passage, finishing 593 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: my education at I at a normal age. I didn't 594 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: graduate high school. I didn't go to the high school prom. 595 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: I wasn't like well into a career, and you know, 596 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: I certainly wasn't married or have a family. So those 597 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: are all the concrete things that came with the loss. 598 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: How did you make it through it? While I was 599 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: in prison? So belief in God was one thing I mentioned. 600 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: I was just I was doing like maybe a year 601 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: or two to the next appeal. I used to go 602 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: to the law library and learn the law, and that 603 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 2: would give me a sense of comfort. I would collect 604 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: articles about other people who were exonerated and use that 605 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: as motivation and also study like what route did they 606 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 2: take and who helped them. You develop a little bit 607 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: of a routine. I engaged in an elaborate delusion when 608 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: I would when I would play basketball or ping pong 609 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: or chess, I would pretend like I was a professional player. 610 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: But it wasn't kids fooling around on a playground. This 611 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 2: was that I needed to leave the prison for a 612 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 2: couple of hours, and that was my way of doing that. 613 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: And I would cut out pictures of nature scenes and 614 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 2: hang them on the cell wall so I could look 615 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: at it and travel there mentally. There was another prisoner 616 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 2: there named Frank Sterling that once every six weeks we 617 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 2: would get together in the yard, and half the conversation 618 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: would be about trying to continue on morale wise, and 619 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 2: the second would be like a brainstorm session. And Frank 620 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: was eventually cleared a couple of years after me by DNA. Also, 621 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 2: so I wasn't naively believing that another prisoner was innocent 622 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: just because I was. And last thing was that I 623 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 2: placed an ad in a newspaper and this stranger wrote 624 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 2: wrote me. I was just desperate for outside contact. And 625 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: so this stranger wrote me and became my pen pal. 626 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 2: And I was literally asking him, you know, do you 627 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: think I should quit? Do you think I should just 628 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 2: give up? Should I just commit suicide? I'm never going 629 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: to get out of here. So I felt like he 630 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: like showed up in the nick of time. 631 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: Wow, I'm going to read your words the actual percentage 632 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: of people who are wrongfully convicted. Considering that the National 633 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: Registry of Exonerated Documents wrongful Convictions is documented from nineteen 634 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: eighty nine to ford more than sixteen hundred wrongful convictions, 635 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: and that a Wayne State University study estimates ten thousand 636 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: new people wrongfully convicted each year, and there's articles to 637 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: say as many as one hundred and twenty thousand people 638 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted. And you said, I would say the wrongful 639 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: conviction percentage is between fifteen and twenty percent. You're saying 640 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: between one of six to one of five of people 641 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: sitting in jail today should not be in jail for 642 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: the crime that they've been put in jail for. 643 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, if that's what fifteen to twenty percent works out. 644 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 2: And I want to point out that at the time 645 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: I said that the numbers have moved on the registry. 646 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: The registry is now documented more than three thousand people 647 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 2: who have been exonerated since the time that I said that. 648 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 2: So my point is that the flow of anecdotal evidence 649 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: seems to be flowing my way on that. 650 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: That is phenomenal to me. That is a huge number 651 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: of people that one are wrongfully convicted. That's a tragedy. 652 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: But when hearing the reality of you getting out of prison, 653 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: not only was your life stripped from you when you 654 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: were in prison, but then catching up on life, you 655 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: also have live strip for you when you're out of prison. 656 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: And Wow, So you decided I'm not gonna be a victim. 657 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna whine about it. 658 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell my story because people need to hear it. 659 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: But I'm going to do something about it, which I think. 660 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody could blame you for being jaded, angry 661 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: at the world, pissed off and screw everybody, system, screwed me, 662 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: screw them. I mean, I wouldn't blame you for filling 663 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: that way. But instead, for some reason, you do just opposite. 664 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: You don't want to be a victim of it. You 665 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: want to rise above it. And you started your organization, 666 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: which is the redemptive part of the story. Tell me 667 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: about the tell me about the foundation. 668 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: Sure. So, while I was having that difficulty the first 669 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 2: five years, I was simultaneously doing advocacy work as an 670 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 2: individual advocate. I was speaking, I became a columnist for 671 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 2: a weekly paper. I was treating privacy for awareness by 672 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 2: doing media interviews, and I was meeting with elected officials. 673 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: I got the scholarship for Mercy College. I finished the bachelor's, 674 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: didn't get into law school, decided to go to grad school. 675 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 2: I got a master's degree because I figured having the 676 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 2: extra credential would make me a better advocate. My thesis 677 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 2: has written on lawful conviction, clause and reform. So I 678 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: graduated from John Jay. Five years after my release, I 679 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 2: was finally financially compensated, and I, you know, I got 680 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: to the point where so up into that. 681 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: Let's be honest, but I mean, let's be clear about 682 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: what you sued the city or costs. I did all 683 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: of that. So I brought a law suit. I brought 684 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: Really am not one of these retigious guys. But in 685 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: this case, we're not going to talk about how much 686 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: you won. That's your personal business. But I hope you 687 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: won a boat loader. 688 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: I did. I got compensated by the state, and I 689 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: brought a civil rights lawsuit. And I didn't let anyone 690 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 2: get away that had a hand in it, from from 691 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 2: Big Skill to the public defenders, to the county uh 692 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,439 Speaker 2: and and to the Putnam County who supplied the polygraphics. 693 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 2: So everybody settled with me except the polygraphis. I went 694 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 2: to trial with him and I won for you, thank you. 695 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 2: So I took them and a half dollars from that 696 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: and I started the Jeffrey Dskovic Foundation for Justice. As 697 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 2: an individual, you could have taken the money and gone off. 698 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: They said, screw everybody. Yes, but now you decide I'm 699 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: going to take some of this. I'm gonna start a 700 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: foundation because people who got screwed like me, I want 701 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: to help. 702 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 2: Yes, Because as an individual advocate, I was only able 703 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 2: to nibble on the edges of helping the free people. 704 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 2: Meaning I could write about somebody's case, which I did 705 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 2: while the injustice was still afoot. I could show up 706 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 2: to the courtroom for the visual impact of the judges. 707 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 2: I could try to bring the media. I could help 708 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 2: to pack the courtroom. But that's just kind of nibbling 709 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 2: on the edges. I wanted to be more directly involved, 710 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: and hence starting the foundation named after me, intending that 711 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 2: to be a legacy that far survives me. And to 712 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: this point we've have gotten fourteen people home. We hold it. 713 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: But you committed at one point five million of your own. 714 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,919 Speaker 2: Dollars, Yes, of my own dollars. Yes, keep going. It's 715 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 2: phenomenal job. I also beyond helping people what in the 716 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 2: same position I was once in, I wanted to help 717 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 2: prevent what happened to me from help happening to others. 718 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: Hence the policy side. So to date we've helped pass 719 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 2: six laws. And at some point I became not satisfied 720 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 2: with sitting in the front row of the courtroom. I 721 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 2: wanted to sit at the defense table. I wanted to 722 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: represent some of the clients. I wanted to make some 723 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 2: of the arguments. And so I went to law school 724 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 2: and I graduated from Paced Law School. And as we 725 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 2: sit here, you know, I've been an attorney for three 726 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 2: years and I have had my first success a year ago. 727 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 2: It was co counselor. We helped free Andre Brown after 728 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 2: twenty three years in prison as conviction was overturned. 729 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: When you look in the mirror, how old are you know? 730 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 2: Fifty? So I've been home for eighteen years. 731 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: Who at forty five graduates law school? 732 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: That's true, that's true, you're right, But look, but here's 733 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: the deal. 734 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: I mean, the pro pressors had to have known your story. 735 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 2: No, it was a big media thing. Of course they did. 736 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: They had to have loved you. 737 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 2: They did. They law school, they did love me. 738 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: You are walking case study. 739 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 2: It's very true. And I was big on class participation, 740 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 2: and they would start asking me questions and sometimes call 741 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 2: me up to help teach the class and certain topics. 742 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, and plus I facilitated a lot of wrongful 743 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 2: conviction events on campus. So yes, they all knew who 744 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 2: I was, and I you know, shared and educated you know, 745 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 2: as much as I much as I could. 746 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. So you said, the first thing 747 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: you did was you sat on who is the. 748 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: Gentleman Andre Brown? I was brought in a co counsel 749 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 2: to tell me history. Yeah, so Andre did twenty three 750 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 2: years in prison for a double attempted murder. His trial 751 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 2: attorney did not introduce medical evidence that showed that, you know, 752 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 2: Andre had been shot in an unrelated incident a year 753 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 2: before that, so he could not have descended the subway 754 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: in the Bronx, ran four or five blocks, gunned down 755 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 2: one person, and then turned and ran another four or 756 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 2: five blocks after somebody else and gunned them down too. 757 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 2: So his lawyers never his lawyer. 758 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: He was physically unable. 759 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: He was physically unable, but his lawyer never presented that. 760 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: Was that. 761 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 2: And then we found an alternative suspect who was the 762 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 2: spinning image of him. That person was identified by two 763 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 2: other witnesses as having committed the crime and it was 764 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 2: all corroborated by ballistics evidence. 765 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 1: Wow, and twenty three years this man lost. 766 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 2: Twenty three years, he lost, and the decision overturning his 767 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 2: conviction came two weeks into December, so he was able 768 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,439 Speaker 2: to spend Christmas with his wife's son and daughter. 769 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: Andrew Kreevac, Yeah, saying that right. 770 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,720 Speaker 2: You are Andrew Creevac. Yes, So that case so Andy 771 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 2: was exonerated. He did twenty three and a half years 772 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 2: in prison. He did three years on house arrests with 773 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 2: an ankle monitor. The same polygraphis who did what he 774 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,439 Speaker 2: did to me, did the same thing to Andy. So 775 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: he was a foundation client. We we screened the case, 776 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 2: we brought lawyers in, we got his conviction overturned, brought 777 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 2: in our scram michelin to represent him at the at 778 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 2: the retrial, and it was another co counsel that joined Oscar. 779 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 2: I wasn't technically allowed to represent him because my case 780 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 2: was how we were going to impeach this polygraphis so 781 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 2: I could right, right, right, But I did everything short 782 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 2: of that. I was knee deep in everything. And you 783 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 2: know he was, he was. He was exonerated. Also William 784 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 2: Howe Hawhey, Yes, so the William hawk So William Hawhee 785 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 2: rest in peace as he he died after six years 786 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 2: of being home. He did eight years and four months 787 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: on an arson case that actually was an electrical fire, 788 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 2: and we got the Putnam keunty just so could turn 789 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 2: I to agree with us that he was innocent. And 790 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 2: William Lopez, William Lopez, Bill, I miss him the most man. 791 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 2: So Bill did twenty three and a half years. He passed, 792 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 2: He did, He passed after year and a half of 793 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 2: being home. So he was in for twenty three and 794 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 2: a half years on a shotgun murder that started out 795 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,280 Speaker 2: as a two witness case and one of the witnesses 796 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 2: could not identify him in court, so now it's a 797 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 2: one witness case. This one witness had been up for 798 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 2: twenty four hours priorless shotgun murder, having done twelve miles 799 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 2: of crack, and she claimed that she was testifying because 800 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 2: it was the right thing to do nothing, that there 801 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 2: was no better, but she. 802 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 3: Twelve holes of cracked but wanted to do the right 803 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 3: thing right. Well, well, but what gets a little bit better? 804 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 3: You know, the day after he was found guilty, she 805 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 3: miraculously was let out of the county jail where she 806 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 3: had her own her own case case problem. Yeah it 807 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 3: was a drug case, yes, and then on top of 808 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 3: that Bills. 809 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 1: But she was doing the right thing. 810 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 2: So she says, yeah, well, we can all laugh. We 811 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 2: know she wasn't. But also Bill's trial lawyer talked him 812 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 2: out of presenting his two alibi witnesses. So he had 813 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 2: a pre existing legal team that had been with him 814 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 2: for a decade before we got involved. So it's kind 815 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 2: of like a building was built but was missing a section. 816 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 2: So we did some investigative work, including finding a witness 817 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,359 Speaker 2: that had been deported into the Dominican Republic, And so 818 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 2: his conviction was his conviction was overturned, and we helped 819 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,399 Speaker 2: him reintegrate, and you know, he passed after a year 820 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 2: and a half. I like to tell myself, I like 821 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 2: to think that that year and a half was the 822 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 2: best year and a half of his life. But at 823 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 2: least he died free. Unless he died knowing that, you know, 824 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 2: his name was cleared. And you know, one more thing 825 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 2: on Bill. You know, he went away his daughter forwarding 826 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 2: fathers out there. His daughter was a year and a 827 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 2: half when he went away. He came back she was 828 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 2: twenty five, and they were never really able to re connect. 829 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got emotional when you said you miss him 830 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: the most, right, I did? Why? Why? What about him? 831 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 2: So we became really close friends when he was released. 832 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,439 Speaker 2: So sometimes he would show up at my house unannounced 833 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 2: and I knock on the door and I opened the 834 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 2: door and Bill, what are you doing here? And he 835 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 2: walks right past me, walks in. He's got a suitcase 836 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 2: and toe willing it and he says, I'm staying for 837 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 2: the weekend. Well, all right, Bill, you know where your 838 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 2: bedroom's at, you know. Uh so, Yeah, So he used 839 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 2: to come up. That was an example of how close 840 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 2: we we were. And you know, I went to a 841 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 2: lot of first with him. You know, we went to 842 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 2: playland first, this first experience with that. We did a 843 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 2: lot of things together. We socialized a lot together. We 844 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 2: played some games of chess together, and we really kind 845 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 2: of commiserated, you know together. He was the first person 846 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 2: that the foundation exonerated. So uh, I think that he 847 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 2: meant the most to me sentimentally. You know, all these 848 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,279 Speaker 2: cases are important, They're all people I'll never forget, but 849 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 2: I feel like being his being the first, and then 850 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 2: the depth of our friendship was much deeper than with 851 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 2: any of the other people. And you know, I, you know, 852 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 2: I remember, I want to digress for a half second, 853 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 2: you know, I remember when we got him out. I mean, 854 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, I had had the staff there, you know, 855 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 2: different people than what are involved now. And I remember 856 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 2: I kind of took some flak from them, and you know, 857 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 2: they said, you know, you have to maintain these boundaries. 858 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,920 Speaker 2: You have to maintain these lines. This is your client, 859 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,799 Speaker 2: this isn't your friend. And you know, and as Bill said, look, man, 860 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,319 Speaker 2: I don't want to be a client. I just want 861 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 2: to be a friend. You know. You guys have meant 862 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 2: what you've meant, You do what you do, you know, 863 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 2: But I like the friendship, and you know I listened 864 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,319 Speaker 2: to him rather than them, and I'm glad there there's this. 865 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 2: You know, when it comes to put for a fighting 866 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 2: wrong for conviction, you know, I kind of I only 867 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,399 Speaker 2: know one way, which is forward and there's never an 868 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,840 Speaker 2: off button. So I remember probably one of my worst 869 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 2: successes in that area, which tie into Bill is a 870 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 2: week we can laugh at craziness in a minute. Okay, 871 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 2: I let the media come into my house on Christmas 872 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 2: Eve because it was his first Christmas home and it 873 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 2: was also my first Christmas since purchasing a house. Wow, 874 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 2: and I'm glad I did. Is a wonderful clip. I 875 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 2: play it every now and then because you know he's gone. 876 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 2: You can see him talking, alive and everything. And that 877 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 2: was his first and only Christmas as it as it 878 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,800 Speaker 2: unfortunately turned out to be. 879 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, the twenty three or 880 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: however many years he. 881 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 2: Spent twenty three and as he might say, don't forget the. 882 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guarantee he felt that half, right of course, 883 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 1: Mark Douglas. 884 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,840 Speaker 2: Yes, so Mars case is definitely a special one as well, 885 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,320 Speaker 2: because you know Mark's case was that was another peak 886 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 2: skill case. No kidding, Yeah, that was another. That was 887 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 2: another peak skill case. 888 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: Yes, that police department has some cleaning up today. 889 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 2: I would agree with you on that. Yes, So you know, 890 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,359 Speaker 2: we have thirteen active cases we're working on now. I'm 891 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 2: involved in nine of them, mostly as co counseil supporting 892 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 2: the lead attorney, but a few were the lead and 893 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 2: I got the more experienced guy you know, there for 894 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 2: the experience, but I wanted the you know, experience of 895 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 2: being the lead. And so those are nine of the thirteen. 896 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 2: The other other the other other four I just generally 897 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 2: get update from, and you know, we're trying to free 898 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 2: as many people as we can. We're doing policy work 899 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 2: with the Coalition group. It could happen to you in 900 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,080 Speaker 2: New York, Pennsylvania, and California. So that's that's what my 901 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 2: life is about. 902 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: The Innocence Project, who without you wouldn't be here with 903 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,439 Speaker 1: me today. Correct But one of their things is there 904 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,799 Speaker 1: you if I understand it correctly. They they specifically deal 905 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,840 Speaker 1: in reversals based on solely on DNA. 906 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,760 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, which is why I have my entity. 907 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: What do you do? 908 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 2: Which is why I Yeah, we do both DNA and 909 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 2: non DNA, So there's got to. 910 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: Believe the non DNA is really hard to get done. 911 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 2: It is, and it's more it's more labor intensive. At 912 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,280 Speaker 2: the same time, there's four times as many non DNAX 913 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,879 Speaker 2: honerations as there are DNAX honerations. So the case, yes, 914 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 2: so the cases are winnable, and so far none of 915 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,760 Speaker 2: the none of the people that we've helped free their cases, 916 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 2: have it involved DNA. 917 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I think better to let one 918 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: hundred guilty go people go free than to have one 919 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 1: and sent man locked up. But society exists provided that 920 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 1: we have accountability to a standard of laws that make 921 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 1: society livable for all of us. Sure, there are bad 922 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: people in the world, Yes there are, I agree, and 923 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: you know I don't want to get into the political 924 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,160 Speaker 1: political argument at all, but I think net in the 925 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: first reader, it's an army of normal folks. I think 926 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 1: normal people would agree there are bad people in the 927 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,360 Speaker 1: world that do really horrific things that need to go 928 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: to jail. Surety there for the betterment of society as 929 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:03,400 Speaker 1: a whole. 930 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 2: I agree, but caveat I think it's a lot less 931 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 2: than what we think. I do believe in redemptive and 932 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 2: second chance for me, I also agree. I have interviewed 933 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,360 Speaker 2: too many people on this show who were bank robbers 934 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 2: and now change people lives, who were arrested seventeen times 935 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,800 Speaker 2: for drugs and now figure out ways to have returning 936 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 2: citizens have a life. So I also believe once you've 937 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 2: paid your debt society, it's paid right, right, And if 938 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 2: you don't want to reoffend and you want to try 939 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 2: to make it, we've got to figure that out, all right. So, 940 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 2: and the whole criminal justice thing is a hot topic 941 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:56,839 Speaker 2: and culture and everything else, but specific to this conversation, 942 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,480 Speaker 2: how do you make sure you're not freeing and working 943 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,239 Speaker 2: on or get them Devil's advocate? Sure, how do you 944 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:10,240 Speaker 2: make sure you're not working to free somebody who's claiming 945 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 2: innocence but actually perpetrated a horrific crime against a against 946 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 2: an innocent person. So, firstly, we don't like we know, 947 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,840 Speaker 2: we're not naive. We know that there are people that 948 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,959 Speaker 2: claim innocence and apply for our help but are. 949 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: Not giving you an I'm throwing you a saltball here 950 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 1: to answer the question for all the people, regardless of 951 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,799 Speaker 1: the whole story. There's people listening to us. Now, it's 952 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,319 Speaker 1: like this has to be done. It's not fair to 953 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 1: but with all our facings citing culture today, I don't 954 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,800 Speaker 1: want to let out a guilty person. I agree, So 955 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,399 Speaker 1: tell us how you safeguard that make us feel good 956 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: about that too? Sure? 957 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So we ask ourselves two questions, do we believe 958 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,800 Speaker 2: the innocence claim? And the standard we use is is 959 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 2: it at least plausible, is at least colorable based on 960 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,400 Speaker 2: something objective? And part of our answering that question is 961 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,920 Speaker 2: we look at what was actually used as evidence of guilt. 962 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 2: So we know from the DNA exonerations what the red 963 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,279 Speaker 2: flags are that an identification might be mistaken, that an 964 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,560 Speaker 2: informant could be lying, or that a confession could be false. 965 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,320 Speaker 2: So we're analyzing that do we believe the innocence claim? Secondly, 966 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,440 Speaker 2: do we see a potential route to victory? So we 967 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,800 Speaker 2: might be convinced of somebody's innocence, and that's what motivates 968 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,879 Speaker 2: us to take the case. You're not going to win 969 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 2: based on that. The court will not allow you to 970 00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 2: relitigate the case. You have to come up with something new, 971 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 2: so we look for something. We look for new evidence. Obviously, 972 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 2: if there's some testable material seamen, saliva, a blood, a 973 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 2: clothing item of someone sweated in that would be how 974 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 2: we would check the box in a DNA case. In 975 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 2: an odd DNA case, we would look for an alternative 976 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,959 Speaker 2: suspect little crime in a nearby area. We would file 977 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 2: a freedom of information law request, and sometimes documents surface 978 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 2: that we're supposed to have been turned over before but weren't, 979 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 2: and that might either be evidence or it might furnish 980 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,520 Speaker 2: a new lead. If we think that somebody lied to 981 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,640 Speaker 2: a trial, we would reinterview them. Sometimes a new witness 982 00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,320 Speaker 2: bubbles to the surface, sometimes an actor in a case 983 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,560 Speaker 2: like say a forensic scientist, or a dirty cop whose 984 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 2: misconduct has bubbled to the surface in some other case. 985 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 2: You know, we look for all of those things, and 986 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,440 Speaker 2: so in terms of safeguarding, you know, the burden of 987 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 2: proof is not on the government, it's on the defendant. 988 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,400 Speaker 2: Once you've been found guilty, now you have to prove 989 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,440 Speaker 2: you're innocent. So this legal standard for newly discovered evidence 990 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 2: is would this new evidence probably have led to a 991 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 2: different outcome? Or if you're going to argue actual innocence, 992 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,320 Speaker 2: the legal standard is, you know, have you proven by 993 00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,520 Speaker 2: clear and convince and evidence. So, coming to my point, 994 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 2: if I have to find evidence of someone's innocence, where 995 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 2: am I going to find that at? If someone is 996 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 2: actually guilty. 997 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:20,360 Speaker 1: That makes sense. So you go through all those machinations 998 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,120 Speaker 1: before you even say I'm going to work hard for 999 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: this person. 1000 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 2: Yes, we have our vetting, a screening process, and then 1001 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 2: once that happens, our working hard is going to get 1002 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 2: even more intense, and we're going to review the whole record. 1003 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,080 Speaker 2: We're going to go through all those steps, and then 1004 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,800 Speaker 2: we're going to do the field investigation, and if we 1005 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,720 Speaker 2: come up with nothing, then there's not going to be 1006 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 2: anything to bring the case back to court with. 1007 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,040 Speaker 1: You know what I think is an interesting proof of 1008 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,200 Speaker 1: the pudding. Tell me, given that the recidivism right in 1009 00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,440 Speaker 1: the United States is somewhere around eighty seven percent, how 1010 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: many people that you have gotten free have quote offended 1011 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: after their freedom? None? 1012 00:58:59,240 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 2: Knock on what? 1013 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? Because you know what, they're not criminals. That to 1014 00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: me is the number that vet's out your process, which 1015 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:21,000 Speaker 1: is given that criminals re offend eighty seven percent of 1016 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: the time and zero percent of the people that you've 1017 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,760 Speaker 1: gotten out of prison have offended. The mouth is on 1018 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:35,120 Speaker 1: your side, my friend. Quick question. Do you fear the cops? 1019 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 2: I used to. 1020 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,840 Speaker 1: I bet when you first got out of jail you 1021 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,320 Speaker 1: had to have been petrified when a cop came anywhere 1022 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: near you. I did, and you don't anymore. I feel 1023 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:55,120 Speaker 1: a slight twinge but overall, no, but that small amount. 1024 00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:00,080 Speaker 2: So the last so up until a year ago, for 1025 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,680 Speaker 2: eight years prior to that, like twice a year, I 1026 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,640 Speaker 2: was brought in to co teach ethics to the police cadets. 1027 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Holy crap, that's crazy. 1028 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 2: So I know that there are good cops out there, 1029 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,400 Speaker 2: just like I know there's bad cops out there. One 1030 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 2: of the things that offends me the most, and I 1031 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:24,720 Speaker 2: think is counterproductive, is when a cop gets caught breaking 1032 01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,320 Speaker 2: the law, you know, or or otherwise doing something unethical, 1033 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 2: you know, the attempt to minimize that it is just 1034 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:38,160 Speaker 2: a few bad apples. No, it's not, because we wouldn't 1035 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,680 Speaker 2: have the more than three thousand X honorations, we wouldn't 1036 01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:47,000 Speaker 2: have police brutality, wouldn't have unjustifiable deadly police killings often 1037 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,120 Speaker 2: caught on camera. So no, it's not a few bad apples. 1038 01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,280 Speaker 2: It's a hell of a lot more than that. At 1039 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 2: the same time, you know, it's not not all the 1040 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 2: cops are bad. There's quite a bit of cops that 1041 01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 2: are that are good. 1042 01:00:59,160 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 1: You know. 1043 01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,919 Speaker 2: To take a half foot into maybe a controversial thing 1044 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 2: is you know, I think the world would be scary. 1045 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,919 Speaker 2: I think the country would be scary if we were 1046 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 2: to defund the police and suddenly disband law enforcement, and 1047 01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,280 Speaker 2: we're going to have a return to the wild wild West. 1048 01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 2: Even I wouldn't advocate for that. So I do think 1049 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 2: the pensulum is a little bit extreme also, you know, 1050 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:24,960 Speaker 2: and I think I. 1051 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,320 Speaker 1: Think some municipalities are reversing their thought process on that 1052 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: that have actually tried to go too far that way. 1053 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,680 Speaker 1: We got to have law and order. To have law 1054 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,200 Speaker 1: and order, you have to have someone enforce it, right. 1055 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,640 Speaker 1: The problem is when you give that much power, when 1056 01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,200 Speaker 1: you give enough power to a human being to take 1057 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,280 Speaker 1: away somebody's liberty, we have to hold those people to account. 1058 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,760 Speaker 1: And the vast majority of them, I think, get into 1059 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,800 Speaker 1: law enforcement because they want to be a part of 1060 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:03,240 Speaker 1: the solution. I do think the power in corrupt, and 1061 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,439 Speaker 1: I do think there are some bad apples out there 1062 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,880 Speaker 1: because the facts and the numbers and the truth bears 1063 01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:13,240 Speaker 1: it out. But I really respect you, especially given your 1064 01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,440 Speaker 1: particular and very unique circumstances, to say, let's not go 1065 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,880 Speaker 1: too far with this. We can't defund the cops. We 1066 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,800 Speaker 1: just got to hold them accountable. 1067 01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,040 Speaker 2: Right exactly, And that's what this whole fight about. Wrongful 1068 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 2: convictions about it's about justice, it's about accuracy. You know, 1069 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,880 Speaker 2: I look at my life in a kaleidoscopic type of way, 1070 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,840 Speaker 2: no meaning. I think that I went through all that 1071 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,160 Speaker 2: I went through in order to do the work that 1072 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,560 Speaker 2: I'm doing. And so with that acceptance, you know, I 1073 01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:54,040 Speaker 2: feel like a inner piece within me. You know, I'm 1074 01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:58,360 Speaker 2: not angry person. I have several lines of reasoning on that. 1075 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I want to enjoy my life as much 1076 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,040 Speaker 2: as I can, and I don't think I could do 1077 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,720 Speaker 2: that if I'm angry or bitter. I feel like I've 1078 01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,920 Speaker 2: lost so much already as is much less to in 1079 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,320 Speaker 2: effect lose the rest of my life by being angry, 1080 01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,840 Speaker 2: perhaps less nobly. It's if I was to be angry 1081 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,600 Speaker 2: or bitter, it's not like I would be impacting the 1082 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 2: people that had a hand in what happened to me. 1083 01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 2: It's I would really be the only loser in that scenario. 1084 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:36,480 Speaker 1: There's a difference in forgiveness and a pardon, right, I agree? 1085 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:38,360 Speaker 1: Can you forgive those that wronged you? 1086 01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:46,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'll share with you that like 1087 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:50,720 Speaker 2: I don't feel like I hate for them. I don't 1088 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:52,480 Speaker 2: think about them. 1089 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:58,400 Speaker 1: That's the most powerful party. If you don't think about them, right, 1090 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,040 Speaker 1: if they're not, if they don't don't own your brain, 1091 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,120 Speaker 1: they don't own you, right. 1092 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,200 Speaker 2: I'm just living my own life, focusing in on me 1093 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,960 Speaker 2: and just trying to address this issue that you know, 1094 01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 2: I'm trying to address the bigger issue, you know what, 1095 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,240 Speaker 2: the problem of wrongful conviction and just do the best 1096 01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:19,000 Speaker 2: that I can and you know, my life today and 1097 01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,600 Speaker 2: going forward, and I'm not really thinking, you know about 1098 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 2: them anymore. I'm just trying to live my best life 1099 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,000 Speaker 2: and try to, you know, make the difference I can 1100 01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:32,080 Speaker 2: that I can make, and you know, make my suffering 1101 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,120 Speaker 2: count for something, and that's it. I'm just focusing on 1102 01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,320 Speaker 2: those things. 1103 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,800 Speaker 1: If somebody wants to support your foundation, because I imagine it 1104 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,360 Speaker 1: takes a lot of money to do this investigative work 1105 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,440 Speaker 1: and everything else, yes, or they'd like you to speak 1106 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,160 Speaker 1: to their organization, or maybe they have a family member 1107 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,280 Speaker 1: that they know is wrongfully convicted and need help. How 1108 01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:55,920 Speaker 1: do they reach you? 1109 01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 2: So there's definitely the website www dot Deskovic d E 1110 01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:02,680 Speaker 2: s kov I see. 1111 01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:04,040 Speaker 1: You better say that one more time. 1112 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 2: D E s Yeah. Www dot d E s ko 1113 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,000 Speaker 2: v I c dot org that you can email me 1114 01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,840 Speaker 2: through the site. Also on social media, so people can 1115 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 2: contact that way, you know, we do have uh yeah, 1116 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:24,000 Speaker 2: So on Facebook it is Jeffreydskovic. I have a personal 1117 01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,040 Speaker 2: page which is public. I have my public profile and 1118 01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,680 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dskovic Foundation is also a Facebook page. On Instagram, 1119 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:36,000 Speaker 2: it's just called Deskovic Foundation. I'm on LinkedIn as well, 1120 01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:40,040 Speaker 2: just my name Jeffreydskovic. So the website and the social 1121 01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,240 Speaker 2: media how people can reach me in terms of donating 1122 01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,000 Speaker 2: several methods. You can go to the website. We have 1123 01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,600 Speaker 2: a you can go through PayPal. We have a crowdfunding 1124 01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:54,680 Speaker 2: page called on a Patreon website, which you know. The 1125 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:58,800 Speaker 2: theory on Patreon which differentiates that from other websites is 1126 01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 2: that's for people that are willing to make a recurring 1127 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:07,720 Speaker 2: monthly donation. What if twenty five thousand people were willing 1128 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,520 Speaker 2: to sacrifice three to five dollars a month on a 1129 01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,560 Speaker 2: recurring basis, Who would miss that from their pocket? But 1130 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,600 Speaker 2: if you had that many people, that would give close 1131 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,680 Speaker 2: to like a million dollars a year, which would mean 1132 01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,720 Speaker 2: we could work on more freeing more people and do 1133 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:24,440 Speaker 2: more policies. 1134 01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:29,160 Speaker 1: How many people who are wrongfully convicted that need help, 1135 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,800 Speaker 1: that are languishing in prison unjustly right now. With a 1136 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:34,320 Speaker 1: million dollars a year helpful. 1137 01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:45,400 Speaker 2: I think that. I think between ten and twenty. 1138 01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,280 Speaker 1: If every one of you did it, you could help 1139 01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:55,840 Speaker 1: people languishing in prison unjustly right now. Have a Christmas. 1140 01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,760 Speaker 1: But that's the work you do, That's the work I do. 1141 01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:05,320 Speaker 1: Not bad from a no father, middle aged kid who 1142 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,760 Speaker 1: got wrongly convicted of a murderer at seventeen years old, 1143 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,800 Speaker 1: railroaded by a bunch of cops and poorly defended by 1144 01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:13,960 Speaker 1: a guy who didn't care. 1145 01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,760 Speaker 2: I want to add, just people thinking about the appeal 1146 01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:20,160 Speaker 2: you made. 1147 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:20,720 Speaker 1: You know that. 1148 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,800 Speaker 2: You know I work fifty to sixty hours a week. 1149 01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:30,400 Speaker 2: I don't get paid for it. So anything that people contributed, 1150 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 2: one hundred percent of it would go towards freeing people. 1151 01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,560 Speaker 2: None of it would make its way into my pocket. 1152 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,040 Speaker 2: Under any philosophy or line of. 1153 01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:42,000 Speaker 1: Reasoning, You're spending all of it to help people that 1154 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:46,000 Speaker 1: are in the same situation you were. Yeah, how could 1155 01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,280 Speaker 1: you not expect these people to get out of jail 1156 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:56,080 Speaker 1: and want to be your friend? Pretty amazing story, Jeff. 1157 01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,000 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed speaking with you, 1158 01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 1: and how much I appreciate you coming down from the 1159 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:08,640 Speaker 1: Brox to Memphis and spending time with me. An amazing 1160 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:14,000 Speaker 1: story and amazing work you're doing, and a really societal 1161 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:18,000 Speaker 1: cultural thing that I don't think has talked about enough 1162 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,120 Speaker 1: and you sharing it in such a depth with us. 1163 01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,000 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Thanks 1164 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,040 Speaker 1: for being with me, thank you for having me on, 1165 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,479 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining us this week. If Jeff 1166 01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:36,920 Speaker 1: or other guests have inspired you in general, or better yet, 1167 01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,799 Speaker 1: inspired you to take action by donating to the Jeffrey 1168 01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,400 Speaker 1: Deskovic Foundation, taking on pro bono cases, if you're an attorney, 1169 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,000 Speaker 1: or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love 1170 01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,200 Speaker 1: to hear about it. You can write me anytime at 1171 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,400 Speaker 1: Bill at normalfolks dot us, and guys, I will respond. 1172 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,439 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, 1173 01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,120 Speaker 1: share it on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate and 1174 01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,160 Speaker 1: review it, Become a premium member at normalfolks dot us, 1175 01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,000 Speaker 1: any and all of these things that will help us 1176 01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:16,519 Speaker 1: grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll 1177 01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:17,599 Speaker 1: see you next week.