Speaker 1: Welcome to the Solid Verbal.
Speaker 2: Coll that for me, I'm a man, I'm forty.
Speaker 1: I've heard so many players say, well, I want to
Speaker 1: be happy. You want to be happy for Dake Edith
Speaker 1: State is that whoo whoo? And now Dan and.
Speaker 3: Tye welcome back to the Solid Verbal Boys and girls.
Speaker 3: My name is Ty Hildebrand, joining me as always over
Speaker 3: there beautiful New York City.
Speaker 2: Gan Rubinstein, Sir, how are you?
Speaker 1: Oh? Ty?
Speaker 4: I am jumping out of my seat. I am very
Speaker 4: excited for this show. You already know because you've already
Speaker 4: clicked on the episode that Chris B. Brown from Smart
Speaker 4: Football and Smart football dot Com and the books and
Speaker 4: everything is on the show. But what I'm most excited about, Ty,
Speaker 4: and I'm sure you are too, is when we have
Speaker 4: him on generally, it's like, oh, let's ask him a
Speaker 4: question about guarding again, you know, defending the spread. Oh,
Speaker 4: let's ask him a question about outside run contained. Oh,
Speaker 4: let's ask him a question about how you know Auburn
Speaker 4: offense has you know, changed from this coordinator to this coordinator. No, Ty, Today,
Speaker 4: we are extremely excited because we are going to be
Speaker 4: very specific and we want to talk about communication and terminology.
Speaker 3: Is that correct communication terminology language? Dan, Yeah, it's all
Speaker 3: about building a relationship not just with your players, but
Speaker 3: with your coaching staff. And how are we going to
Speaker 3: call the plays? That's the question. How do we call
Speaker 3: the plays that are going to help the team win?
Speaker 4: Sue, And football is no different than any other industry.
Speaker 4: Is you have to know how to speak, you have
Speaker 4: to know how to communicate. You have to know what
Speaker 4: you're doing and how you're doing it. And the only
Speaker 4: way to do that is by teaching and telling people
Speaker 4: what to do in a way that they understand. So
Speaker 4: I am, I am super curious to learn about how
Speaker 4: especially you know, obviously football has gotten a lot faster
Speaker 4: in terms of no huddle and tempo and signaling and
Speaker 4: coaches writing down play cards and what's on those, So
Speaker 4: there's a whole lot to cover, and I am I'm
Speaker 4: very excited to learn about or learn more at least
Speaker 4: about the language of football, if that makes sense.
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Speaker 3: I was up at Mama H's actually she noticed, Yeah,
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Speaker 2: I told her about Oliver's apparel. She was very impressed.
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Speaker 2: Not only wife approved, but mother approved as well.
Speaker 4: All right, Ty, with that, we are now joined by
Speaker 4: Chris B. Brown aka Chris by Brown aka smart Football
Speaker 4: aka the Art of Smart Football. Go to Amazon aka
Speaker 4: what's the name of the other book.
Speaker 1: Chris Essential Smart Football.
Speaker 4: The Essential Smart Football. You've seen his work on Grant,
Speaker 4: on ESPN, SB Nation everywhere, so much fun nerding out
Speaker 4: over x's and o's and scheme talk and his books
Speaker 4: by the way, and I mean this sincerely, there's no
Speaker 4: better book. If you're just like I want to nerd out,
Speaker 4: but not like spend three weeks. You can breathe through
Speaker 4: his books. There are visual elements, They're wonderful and you
Speaker 4: can get through them in a day or two. So yeah,
Speaker 4: that's my spiel. Ty, How you doing. How you feeling
Speaker 4: about this show?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well.
Speaker 3: The other thing that I would add here if anyone
Speaker 3: out there is wondering how intense our guest is when
Speaker 3: we connected up with him, this is a true story.
Speaker 3: When we connected up with him a few minutes ago,
Speaker 3: he was sort of devising how he would conduct this interview,
Speaker 3: at least on his end, because he wasn't sure if
Speaker 3: he'd need both hands to go through the signal calls
Speaker 3: that we're going to ask came about if the speakerphone
Speaker 3: would be enough for what we require here on the
Speaker 3: verbal So Chris is taking this very seriously, and we
Speaker 3: appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Mister Brown, how.
Speaker 1: Are you good? Good?
Speaker 5: I mean, hey, if you're going to talk about signaling,
Speaker 5: you got to get a little like Nick Saban with
Speaker 5: it and gesticulate and do the hands.
Speaker 1: It's you got to be you know, it's I'm a
Speaker 1: method actor. If we're going to be talking through this.
Speaker 3: We appreciate that. We appreciate. So let's start here. Okay,
Speaker 3: we're talking about communication. You've got a freshman coming into
Speaker 3: a program, you got a transfer of some kind coming
Speaker 3: into a program. What is it that you always hear
Speaker 3: something like, oh, I'm getting he's getting caught up, he's
Speaker 3: learning the terminology. We kind of have an idea what
Speaker 3: that means here, just as two sad podcast hosts. But
Speaker 3: when you hear that, Chris, what what do you hear?
Speaker 3: What exactly does that mean?
Speaker 5: Okay, well, the part of the challenge that means different
Speaker 5: things for different teams. So if you are in it,
Speaker 5: are you a no huddle team? Are you a huddle team?
Speaker 5: And then what what? You obviously have to learn whatever
Speaker 5: language is being spoken to communicate the plays, and then
Speaker 5: you have to figure out what are the features that
Speaker 5: are required to actually relay that information to other players
Speaker 5: to get people going. So just to take you know,
Speaker 5: the simple example, I mean, my high school was like
Speaker 5: the we used the Paul.
Speaker 1: Johnson method when I was in high school, which was.
Speaker 5: You have pretty simple play calls and they were old school.
Speaker 1: If you want to.
Speaker 5: Run the ISO off tackle to the right, it was
Speaker 5: forty two right. I mean literally our play calls were
Speaker 5: I right, iformation right, forty.
Speaker 1: Two ISO right.
Speaker 5: And then in order to get the play in, do
Speaker 5: you have we rotated receivers, was William the Paul Johnson method.
Speaker 1: You'd have a receiver. I did this for a little while.
Speaker 5: Myself was a junior, and then when I wasn't going
Speaker 5: enough to stay on the field the whole game, and
Speaker 5: then the coach would say, you'd hear the office corner
Speaker 5: head coach go, what do we call it?
Speaker 1: Say? I right, forty two and then it's give it
Speaker 1: to you run in and then.
Speaker 5: You're out of breath and you tell the quarterback, you know,
Speaker 5: I write forty two, and then he turns round of
Speaker 5: the huddle and tells everybody, I write forty two and
Speaker 5: that still works, right, and so and that's pretty simple.
Speaker 5: And if you're a new player coming into that system.
Speaker 5: You know, probably in high school or your junior college
Speaker 5: or wherever you ran the off tackle play, and you
Speaker 5: pretty quickly within a couple of days could learn to
Speaker 5: translate whatever you called it at your prior school to
Speaker 5: I write forty two.
Speaker 1: And then the procedures are pretty simple.
Speaker 5: You give it in the huddle and then you line
Speaker 5: up there and you take the snap and you exec
Speaker 5: get the play and I said Paul Johnson, Georgia Tech.
Speaker 5: Does that believe or not. The other system that basically
Speaker 5: the other place that basically does it the same way
Speaker 5: is the NFL in terms of procedures, because they can
Speaker 5: use the communication headset right, so they're just stating in
Speaker 5: the huddle and they just say, hey, go run, I
Speaker 5: write forty two, and then they huddle. You can turn
Speaker 5: around and say I write forty two and then they
Speaker 5: go and do it. Obviously, the difference in the NFL
Speaker 5: is that the play calls are much longer, there's more
Speaker 5: memorization because it's usually broken out into finite parts because
Speaker 5: they're trying to tell each player what to do. But
Speaker 5: in terms of procedurally, it's pretty simple. The problem, I
Speaker 5: would say for the challenge for a lot of these
Speaker 5: college teams is that the terminology is more complex than
Speaker 5: I write forty two. You've got to learn a wider
Speaker 5: variety of formations, you've got to learn a wider variety
Speaker 5: of plays tags on them, and then you have to
Speaker 5: deal with whatever our communication procedures are because it's got
Speaker 5: to get from the coach to the quarterback. Then the
Speaker 5: quarterback has usually some level of responsibility at the line
Speaker 5: to tell the other players what to do. And then,
Speaker 5: especially if you're any kind of no huddle team or
Speaker 5: want to go up tumbo at all, you've got to
Speaker 5: do it quickly or you lose the value of that.
Speaker 5: So I think that's the challenge for a young quarterback
Speaker 5: or a transfer quarterback is you've got to learn the language,
Speaker 5: and you've got to translate all this stuff and some
Speaker 5: learn new concepts and how things alter. But you've got
Speaker 5: to do it in a physical environment where you've got
Speaker 5: to do it quickly and get it related and then
Speaker 5: interpret someone's doing hand signs at you.
Speaker 1: You know, you just got up with the ground.
Speaker 5: You got to find the coach and then turn around
Speaker 5: and communicate or make sure everyone else is, you know,
Speaker 5: on the same page.
Speaker 1: So that's to me as the challenge. I think that's
Speaker 1: and I think that's.
Speaker 5: The underrated part of it, which is it's not just
Speaker 5: learning plays and learning names. It's it's learning multiple communication methods,
Speaker 5: sign language, you know, code words, and then actually doing
Speaker 5: in a physical environment.
Speaker 3: So we're going to dive into a lot of what
Speaker 3: you just mentioned there, but I want to start with
Speaker 3: the composition of a play call. So forty two might
Speaker 3: be some sort of running play in high school, in college,
Speaker 3: you mention. As you go up through the ranks, it
Speaker 3: tends to get a little bit more complicated. I think
Speaker 3: the secret language term that a lot of people. If
Speaker 3: you've watched Monday Night Football, John Gruden, you're used to
Speaker 3: hearing spider too. Why banana? What is the composition of
Speaker 3: the wording of a play called? What other things are
Speaker 3: signaled throughout just that terminology? And is there any kind
Speaker 3: of common convention used to help these guys, whether it's
Speaker 3: players or coaches, get up to speed quicker if they
Speaker 3: move from program to program or team to team.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So there's there's a couple of structural similarities because
Speaker 5: there are just things that are inherent and calling a
Speaker 5: football play, meaning that the first thing you got to
Speaker 5: tell people is where to line up? Right, You got
Speaker 5: to have a formation, and then the second thing is
Speaker 5: are you going to do anything else pre snap before
Speaker 5: the formation, like a motion or a shift. And so
Speaker 5: you can have a whole system of how you call
Speaker 5: your formations and then certainly your motions and shifts. So
Speaker 5: for formations there are I would say two schools of
Speaker 5: thought with this, And actually I used to be more
Speaker 5: of the formal former, but with no how to push
Speaker 5: these towards the ladder, which is I actually would prefer
Speaker 5: a system where you have a handful of base formations,
Speaker 5: meaning that it tells most people where to line up,
Speaker 5: like twins right or left, or you can use colors
Speaker 5: or words, and then you have tags which then tell
Speaker 5: certain where to go, like the H back or the
Speaker 5: full back type player or soft player. And the advantage
Speaker 5: of that is I could have four or five formations
Speaker 5: that tell ten of my players where to line up.
Speaker 5: But then if I've got a second call which tells
Speaker 5: the h back where to go, and I've got six
Speaker 5: options off of that, now I've increased the number of
Speaker 5: formations exponentially.
Speaker 1: And I didn't have to add new words for everybody.
Speaker 1: The problem in a no huddle context is.
Speaker 5: Two concepts takes two signals or two words, so you're
Speaker 5: always trying to fight the urge to make your play
Speaker 5: call longer. And this is where and I'm a big
Speaker 5: fan of simpler shorter, but remember simpler shorter means more memorization.
Speaker 1: Scott Frost did some clinic stuff recently and talked a
Speaker 1: lot about that.
Speaker 5: With formations, they basically if they've added a lot of
Speaker 5: formations to what they did at UCF, and we'll be
Speaker 5: doing it Nebraska compared to even what did it at Oregon.
Speaker 5: But that requires more memorization of players because they're not
Speaker 5: willing to have these multiple word formations, which would give
Speaker 5: you a lot of flexibility.
Speaker 1: And that's one thing the NFL guys.
Speaker 5: Will do because they can give you, you know, one
Speaker 5: way you're going to have hundreds of formations is to
Speaker 5: have twenty formations and then have eight tags on those formations,
Speaker 5: and then that you can just do the math.
Speaker 1: It's an exponential increase.
Speaker 5: And then you get into shifts and motions, which are
Speaker 5: a whole other ball of wax, which is, you know,
Speaker 5: how many different types of motions and then how do
Speaker 5: you designate who's doing what? So those are that's before
Speaker 5: the play even starts, right, So then the question is
Speaker 5: is how do you call the play? And that can
Speaker 5: mean a lot of different things, and there's a lot
Speaker 5: of different ways to do it. You have eleven guys,
Speaker 5: so you need to tell eleven guys what to do.
Speaker 1: You can do.
Speaker 5: It as my high school did, or like a lot
Speaker 5: of teams still, do you have one one word or
Speaker 5: one number that tells all eleven players what to do,
Speaker 5: or you can have it where you have different words
Speaker 5: or codes or signals that tell the different groups what
Speaker 5: to do. It may actually be the same play, or
Speaker 5: as we can get into later, you know package plays
Speaker 5: and things where it allowed and RPOs where allows you
Speaker 5: to actually mix the match a little bit. But that's
Speaker 5: a way to give yourself more flexibility.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 5: As we'll see with some of the tempo teams, that
Speaker 5: actually can make you faster because you can have different
Speaker 5: people communicating with different players at the same time to
Speaker 5: make you go a little faster while having more variability.
Speaker 5: So if you just break it down, usually the offensive
Speaker 5: line needs at least one call.
Speaker 1: What are they blocking?
Speaker 5: And then the receivers need some kind of doesn't Are
Speaker 5: they blocking, are they running a pass, or are they
Speaker 5: running a screen?
Speaker 1: Whatever it is?
Speaker 5: And then sometimes it's common to have a base play
Speaker 5: and then you've got to tag on that play. And
Speaker 5: then the last thing that's often overlooked is many plays
Speaker 5: need a directional call just right or left, and so
Speaker 5: there's different ways to do that. But when you have
Speaker 5: to factor that into so you add that up, even
Speaker 5: if you're a no huddle temp, you can wind up
Speaker 5: with six or seven different things that you've got to
Speaker 5: signal or call in. And there's ways to divide and
Speaker 5: conquer on all that, but six or seven different pieces
Speaker 5: that you've got to communicate to get everyone lined up,
Speaker 5: are they emotional shifting?
Speaker 1: And then run whatever the play call is. And then
Speaker 1: the quarterback has.
Speaker 5: To mentally be able to build a picture of that
Speaker 5: in his mind so that he knows what he's supposed
Speaker 5: to do.
Speaker 4: So we know about coaching trees, and I guess let's
Speaker 4: use the example of Scott Frost now that he's been
Speaker 4: at Oregon. I guess Northern iowall be for that. But
Speaker 4: ucf now at Nebraska is there like are there different
Speaker 4: As you mentioned theories of communication that that would travel
Speaker 4: along those same I guess coaching branches. If Chip Kelly
Speaker 4: put on a headset listening to a Nebraska call, would
Speaker 4: he sort of get the sense of what they're trying
Speaker 4: to do because of his own experience, you know, obviously
Speaker 4: putting in his system that Scott Frost learned from at Oregon.
Speaker 4: Is there are there sort of languages or I guess
Speaker 4: dialects within coaching trees that sort of spread through the
Speaker 4: through the sport.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I absolutely, I acsolutely think so. But I actually
Speaker 5: think college probably less so. And I think that's where
Speaker 5: you get into the NFL where team players move around
Speaker 5: a lot and sometimes they'll get it picked up off
Speaker 5: the street and they've got to drop him in. And
Speaker 5: there's definitely differences. The Patriots a little different than the
Speaker 5: West Coast type team and some of these other teams,
Speaker 5: but that's there's a lot of carryover in how NFL
Speaker 5: players they communicate and then there's some translation, but how
Speaker 5: they communicate. You know, your buddy Jeff Schwartz, who's awesome,
Speaker 5: is amazing, and he knows so much football, but he
Speaker 5: will get like in an argument like all day with
Speaker 5: like a fan about like what a concept is called
Speaker 5: and he's definitely right that that's what it's called in
Speaker 5: like the NFL.
Speaker 1: But I know high.
Speaker 5: Schools that will just call it whatever they want because
Speaker 5: a usually there's some up tempo team and they don't
Speaker 5: want the defense and know what it is and then
Speaker 5: be some fifteen year old has no idea that the
Speaker 5: weak side counterplay is typically called stutter, which is sort
Speaker 5: of a you know, a you're anachronistic term. But if
Speaker 5: you ask almost any NFL offensive lineman, they'll they'll, you know, say, oh,
Speaker 5: the weak's side counter is called the stutter. And so
Speaker 5: there are dialects and things that are carryover, but you know,
Speaker 5: and maybe this will change with the grad transfer rules
Speaker 5: and all that. But college that I do find a
Speaker 5: little more provincial. One one dialect that I think is
Speaker 5: easy to start with because it's so simple and it
Speaker 5: can kind of give you some flavors if you want,
Speaker 5: I can.
Speaker 1: I can basically tell you exactly.
Speaker 5: How the old school air raid guys will communicate from
Speaker 5: start to finish, from when a play comes into Mike
Speaker 5: Reach's brain to how he gets into all the players.
Speaker 5: I don't know if that's useful to do, because I
Speaker 5: think they have a really simple system that arguably people
Speaker 5: think they could steal the signals, which is a different problem,
Speaker 5: but it's a good.
Speaker 1: Introduction to like how all these work.
Speaker 5: And then all these air raid guys they've now evolved,
Speaker 5: but they all started basically with the same procedural mechanics.
Speaker 4: What is that root? What is that root system?
Speaker 1: So so here's I mean.
Speaker 5: The two things to know is that they have a
Speaker 5: really simple structure where they have formations most of them
Speaker 5: have one word because they don't want a lot of formations.
Speaker 1: And then most of.
Speaker 5: Their plays are they've got numbers. It's they have a
Speaker 5: system where almost all their pass.
Speaker 1: Plays are numbered, but the numbers really don't mean anything.
Speaker 5: They've vaguely mean something, but but they're kind of it's weird,
Speaker 5: like you know, their five step dropback passes are ninety
Speaker 5: plays like ninety one, two, nine, three, nine, four, ninety
Speaker 5: five and then but there for some reason, they're three
Speaker 5: step quick game. It's like sixty two or six nineteen
Speaker 5: or six seventeen or like or eight. It like doesn't
Speaker 5: make sense, but the point being the players learn it.
Speaker 5: And then it's they've only run some many place that's
Speaker 5: easy enough to learn. So they have pretty simple building blocks.
Speaker 5: So the first thing if you and you can watch
Speaker 5: a Washington State game, and I've been told that Leach,
Speaker 5: I won't tell you what all the signals are because
Speaker 5: I'll get in trouble. But I've been told that Leach's
Speaker 5: signals basically haven't changed since like two thousand and three
Speaker 5: at Texas Tech. But if you watch them, they'll call
Speaker 5: for formations, and so the two formations.
Speaker 1: Probably run the most.
Speaker 5: And if you watch a lot of other area guys,
Speaker 5: they still use the same signals for formations. It's ace,
Speaker 5: which is they're two by two four wives, which is
Speaker 5: you point your finger up in the air, or early,
Speaker 5: which is trips right, which you literally just rub like
Speaker 5: your eyes like you're getting up early, or then late
Speaker 5: which is like tapping your wrists like which is trips left.
Speaker 5: So early has an R in it, so trips right
Speaker 5: and then.
Speaker 1: Late trips left. Really simple stuff.
Speaker 5: And then then each play just has like a one
Speaker 5: hand signal to it. So and it's and one of
Speaker 5: the nice things about studying to get introduced, Like you
Speaker 5: watch Leech, He's the one signaling it. It's not one
Speaker 5: of these teams with five signalers. Signalers on the sideline,
Speaker 5: and so you know what he'll do if he wants
Speaker 5: to call just one play, you know, one.
Speaker 1: Play which is the one I'll give you, which is simple.
Speaker 5: I think everyone knows it, which is their one, their
Speaker 5: snag concept sort of try and go read. The flat
Speaker 5: receiver runs, the corner back runs the flat, and then
Speaker 5: the outside receiver runs like a quick slant or a
Speaker 5: little sit down route. It's eight and so he just
Speaker 5: taps his shoulder and so he can just call that
Speaker 5: and then that goes into the quarterback and everything runs
Speaker 5: to the quarterback. Or the thing Leech likes to do
Speaker 5: is he'll do think about and so you'll see him
Speaker 5: with call formation ACE. Then he'll tap the side of
Speaker 5: his head, which means think about, and he'll give them too,
Speaker 5: like a couple of plays. So then he can just
Speaker 5: signal two different plays. They could be like ACE and
Speaker 5: then like ninety five ninety.
Speaker 1: Five being their their their white cross play which everybody knows.
Speaker 1: And then the quarterback.
Speaker 5: Then I think about that system as the quarterback can
Speaker 5: either call one of those plays or any other play
Speaker 5: he wants, but then at that point attend to the quarterback.
Speaker 5: So if you watched last year. Like Luke Falk, this
Speaker 5: is where the leech has his signals, right, and all
Speaker 5: the area guys they kind of have their signals and
Speaker 5: then but then at that point it becomes the players.
Speaker 1: So they got to they figure out how do.
Speaker 5: They want to communicate and so the and this is
Speaker 5: true for all most tempo teams, though this is changing
Speaker 5: and we can get into Scott frost taw he does
Speaker 5: a little differently, but most tempo teams, the quarterback then
Speaker 5: relays the concept to the offensive line through a code
Speaker 5: word and so which you can guess why. It's a
Speaker 5: little harder for the offensive line to turn and look
Speaker 5: at a signaler on the sideline, or certainly they can't
Speaker 5: turn and look at a signal from the quarterback, So
Speaker 5: you give them a code word. Well, how do you
Speaker 5: You can't just call forty two, right, And so you
Speaker 5: have to have a word that you can call.
Speaker 1: And you can even call the same thing over and over.
Speaker 5: Again, especially with protection schemes where you might change the
Speaker 5: past play.
Speaker 1: But the protection scheme will stay the same.
Speaker 5: And so you use word association every high school the
Speaker 5: college NFL team doesn't.
Speaker 1: So it could be words.
Speaker 5: That star with b you know, you know, Budweiser, Bronco,
Speaker 5: whatever it is, and they all mean the same thing
Speaker 5: or a really common one and give you give you
Speaker 5: one old one from Gus Miles on which sure's changed
Speaker 5: so I won't get in trouble. Which is their their counterplay,
Speaker 5: like the counter blocking play. For a long times called
Speaker 5: cult was one word, but then you could use you
Speaker 5: could call it Indie or luck for Andrew Luck.
Speaker 1: There's a quarterback of the cult. It's really simple stuff,
Speaker 1: not exactly brain surgery.
Speaker 5: But you know, if you're the defense and you've got
Speaker 5: two seconds, you don't necessarily know that there's a luck
Speaker 5: and culture that's necessarly the same thing.
Speaker 1: You might get used. Over time, they change.
Speaker 5: Their calls, and then then the quarterback and the air
Speaker 5: raid system will then signal everything to the receivers, which
Speaker 5: he has his own signal. The receivers and the quarterback
Speaker 5: just make up their own signals a year to year,
Speaker 5: and so that's where they.
Speaker 1: Can kind of take ownership of that stuff.
Speaker 5: And then the nice thing of that system, since everyone's
Speaker 5: looking at the quarterback, if he wants to audible, he
Speaker 5: can make a call.
Speaker 1: Usually it's like easy, easy, easy, and then he just
Speaker 1: sort of.
Speaker 5: Resignals everything and then that's it, and then they get
Speaker 5: up and go. And then the other advantage of that
Speaker 5: is you can call like a block like a run
Speaker 5: play at the line, and then you could call either
Speaker 5: a pass route or a screen to the receivers.
Speaker 1: And it's just done by signal.
Speaker 5: So that's that system, which is really simple, and that's
Speaker 5: been the framework for a lot of those guys. The
Speaker 5: problem with it is, as you can guess, is that
Speaker 5: if you want to go really really fast, it's actually
Speaker 5: kind of slow. Coach the quarterback, quarterback to line, quarterback
Speaker 5: to receivers. So probably you know most tempo teams now
Speaker 5: if you watch them, it's coach the quarterback, quarterback to line, coaches,
Speaker 5: signalers to receivers at the same time and then and
Speaker 5: then that which then you're able to do that simultaneously,
Speaker 5: so you take out that extra step so that you
Speaker 5: shave a few seconds off and you can go a
Speaker 5: little faster. And then the last thing I'll say is
Speaker 5: I think Frost has moved to He's an example, he's
Speaker 5: moved to actually having a different, an entirely different signaler
Speaker 5: for the offensive line. So they're they're not even getting
Speaker 5: that extra step from the quarterback. So it's going skill
Speaker 5: and offensive line, two different signalers. And I don't know
Speaker 5: if they actually have like extra guys in the sidelines
Speaker 5: so they have like live and dead signalers or not.
Speaker 5: But but if you've got multiple signalers, that's able to
Speaker 5: do it more quickly. So that those are those are
Speaker 5: some of the key sort of frameworks, but you can
Speaker 5: can mix and match that stuff.
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Speaker 4: Obviously, tempo is a relatively modern concept, especially with what
Speaker 4: it now means and teams going pretty quickly. Who is
Speaker 4: who would you say has done the best job or
Speaker 4: has been the most influential in terms of taking the
Speaker 4: concept of tempo and no huddle and turning it into
Speaker 4: something that's super easily digested. I mean, you mentioned Scott Frost,
Speaker 4: you mentioned Gus Malson obviously the you know, Chad Morris
Speaker 4: did a lot at Clemson with no huddle stuff. Who
Speaker 4: has sort of put the biggest stamp on tempo communication
Speaker 4: in the last I don't know, twelve years or so.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's hard to say because the thing you have
Speaker 5: to remember, piets of different goals when they want to
Speaker 5: want to what they want to do, so and there's
Speaker 5: a big difference between being a tempo team sometimes and
Speaker 5: being a tempo team all the time, and that has
Speaker 5: significant implications on how you build your communication system. So
Speaker 5: simple example, the New England Patriots, especially if you go
Speaker 5: back a few years, really good tempo team. Actually they
Speaker 5: they can turn on a switch and run tempo and
Speaker 5: they literally started doing.
Speaker 1: And it goes back.
Speaker 5: You know, BILLI Bryan's talked about US a bunch. You know,
Speaker 5: in twenty eleven and twenty twelve, they sort of stole
Speaker 5: the idea from Oregon where they would just have six
Speaker 5: for eight calls in the game plan for that week,
Speaker 5: which were one word calls. And again that goes We
Speaker 5: literally did that in my high school too. It was
Speaker 5: like Orange was like a two minute call. I mean,
Speaker 5: we're not again not like brain surgery here, and you
Speaker 5: just call Orange or you know whatever the term is,
Speaker 5: Patriot or something, and you can go fast and then
Speaker 5: everyone knows what to do. And that includes the formation
Speaker 5: A lows you go really fast, and then the rest
Speaker 5: of the time, the Patriots can signal, they can huddle,
Speaker 5: they can do all those different things. And the idea
Speaker 5: is that you take a piece of your game plan
Speaker 5: and you and you supercharge it. Again to use Frost
Speaker 5: is he talked about that they really started doing that
Speaker 5: at Oregon and they and where it really clicked was
Speaker 5: in twenty ten and the game that Frost will mention
Speaker 5: this when they played Tennessee. I'm sure Dan you well
Speaker 5: remember when when they played Tennessee and they really played
Speaker 5: well early, but they really wore them down and then
Speaker 5: blew them out in the second half. And they that
Speaker 5: was one of the first games where they did that concept.
Speaker 5: And they had like seven plays so they could do
Speaker 5: that fast and in the second half they were just
Speaker 5: doing those over and over and over again. The flip
Speaker 5: side of that is that if you're a team like
Speaker 5: Maleson's team, everything.
Speaker 1: You do is no huddle or built to be no huddle.
Speaker 1: So when you're.
Speaker 5: Teaching on day one, you're not teaching forty two and
Speaker 5: then translating it to here's the no huddle version of
Speaker 5: that in you know, later in the system, you're teaching
Speaker 5: it as this is what we do.
Speaker 1: Everything is being signaled.
Speaker 5: You actually will learn the place in a no huddle context,
Speaker 5: and then you're ready to receive the information that way,
Speaker 5: and that's how the plays are taught, which significantly impacts
Speaker 5: how you set up your offense because one of the
Speaker 5: downsides of being a no huddle up tempo team all
Speaker 5: the time is and this is one reason why the
Speaker 5: NFL is not you know, you don't be rarely. You
Speaker 5: don't see any teams go one hundred percent because it's
Speaker 5: very difficult to tweak and make in game adjustments when
Speaker 5: you've drilled down your play is to just Patriot or whatever,
Speaker 5: because then now the defense is shifted and.
Speaker 1: You want to run it, but you want to do
Speaker 1: it a little differently or out of tag you can't.
Speaker 1: You're just you're in. You run Patriot again and so,
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 5: The only way you could also do it is you
Speaker 5: get on the sideline and say, next time we call Patriot,
Speaker 5: we're going to do this.
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's it, you know.
Speaker 5: So, which are not to say that Gus and his
Speaker 5: system they don't have the answers to that, but they
Speaker 5: have to build it within a no huddle framework because
Speaker 5: they can't just go huddle and then make easily call
Speaker 5: a couple extra tags.
Speaker 1: I think Tip Kelly was a big influence.
Speaker 5: I think the air Ray guys is there's so many
Speaker 5: of them, and they've been going no huddle since like
Speaker 5: the nineties, so they've gotten pretty good at it. There's
Speaker 5: a bunch of schools of thought, certainly all the teams
Speaker 5: that started doing the freeze call, where your call formation,
Speaker 5: you fake the snap and then everyone looks at the sideline.
Speaker 5: I mean, there was a time when every team did that,
Speaker 5: So whoever was the first to do that was obviously influential.
Speaker 5: But I think there's just a lot of different ways
Speaker 5: to skin the cat.
Speaker 3: The other thing that comes to mind, Chris, because I'm
Speaker 3: guessing there are people at home listening to this, who
Speaker 3: are blown away by the complexity of it all. But
Speaker 3: we all know those rushed moments in a game where
Speaker 3: it's very apparent that two plays have been called in
Speaker 3: the huddle. How is it possible within the framework of
Speaker 3: all this to do that if maybe you don't have
Speaker 3: a play that's only one word, How do you communicate
Speaker 3: multiple plays at the same time in a situation where
Speaker 3: perhaps you're running a two minute offense.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the key.
Speaker 5: You probably wouldn't do it much in a two minute
Speaker 5: offense setting. I thought, we're breaking in a couple categories.
Speaker 5: So one I already touched on, which is the maybe
Speaker 5: most unique. But I do think one of the more
Speaker 5: interesting ones, which is the Mike leachs where he does
Speaker 5: think about and he just sort of gives a couple
Speaker 5: of suggestions and the quarterback just calls one. There's the
Speaker 5: Peyton Manning version, which is where you actually huddle and
Speaker 5: then you lay out like you spill out a.
Speaker 1: Whole long thing, and then you get to the line
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 5: You call kill kill kill, which or whatever your term is,
Speaker 5: which basically means run the second.
Speaker 1: Play or the third play or whatever.
Speaker 5: And then everyone in the huddle heard what are the options?
Speaker 1: And then and then most no huddle teams.
Speaker 5: Don't don't don't really call the college no huddle teams
Speaker 5: which you say, don't call multiple plays to the line,
Speaker 5: because it sort of defeats the.
Speaker 1: Purpose of being no huddle. It requires another call.
Speaker 5: So typically what they'll do is we'll either do the
Speaker 5: freeze call, which I said before, which is.
Speaker 1: You don't call a play. You you get lined up,
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 5: That, you fake the snap, and then everybody's you know,
Speaker 5: you see what the defense does, and then everybody looks
Speaker 5: to the sideline and then they then then you call
Speaker 5: the play. The other thing to remember is that one
Speaker 5: of the constraints of these no huddle teams, and this
Speaker 5: is one of the problems that Chip Kelly had in
Speaker 5: the NFL, is he had no audible mechanic, which is
Speaker 5: sort of hard to believe for an NFL.
Speaker 1: Team, But.
Speaker 5: You know, by going fast and having multiple signalers for
Speaker 5: multiple positions, you didn't have that central person who could
Speaker 5: then come Peyton Manning or Tom Brady who could then say,
Speaker 5: you know, just change the play. And that was a constraint.
Speaker 5: Now what they had was it one they'd go no
Speaker 5: huddle and.
Speaker 1: They could get the defense lined up.
Speaker 5: And then two, this is where RPOs have come in
Speaker 5: and package plays and all that stuff is the idea
Speaker 5: that you've build or just read options. You build the
Speaker 5: answers into a single play, and now you don't have
Speaker 5: to check to a pass or check to a run.
Speaker 5: It's built into the to the play call and then
Speaker 5: therefore from the and really one of the reasons r
Speaker 5: pos I think exploded is because it fit well within
Speaker 5: the uptempo no huddle framework, because you could call one
Speaker 5: play and then the quarterback without communicating anything, could throw
Speaker 5: it or hand it off, or you read it or whatever.
Speaker 5: So I think there's less of unless you see a
Speaker 5: team huddle. And I'm not saying no one ever does this,
Speaker 5: but unless you see a team huddle, you're not calling
Speaker 5: multiple plays that much. The caveat I'll give to that
Speaker 5: is that you've got to remember the other The secret
Speaker 5: weapon for a lot of coaches is the wristband. And
Speaker 5: so there's a lot of stuff on that wristband that
Speaker 5: and you can.
Speaker 1: Use them different ways.
Speaker 5: You can give them to the quarterback or you'll see
Speaker 5: a lot of teams they give them to everybody, and
Speaker 5: so that allows a little it's slow because you've have
Speaker 5: to call something out and usually it's just a list
Speaker 5: of plays that are that are numbered, so someone can
Speaker 5: either signal or a quarterback could announce twenty five.
Speaker 1: And everybody looks at their wristband. It's he's twenty five.
Speaker 3: Are there any Are there any kind of like situational
Speaker 3: guidelines on those wristbands? How detailed or complex do they get?
Speaker 1: I mean it sort of toy. Depends on who you
Speaker 1: are and what your team is.
Speaker 5: And and what what purpose you're using them for. So
Speaker 5: one example is and Peter King wrote like an mm
Speaker 5: QB piece right after the Super Bowl. Nick Foles wore
Speaker 5: a wristband in the super Bowl and the sort of
Speaker 5: the final touchdowns, I don't know, I to go ahead,
Speaker 5: I can't remember. For just the final touchdown the slant
Speaker 5: passed to Zach Ertz where they ran bunch the right
Speaker 5: and put the back and bullet motion and went the
Speaker 5: four receivers one side and through a slat back side.
Speaker 5: The play called the Nick Foles on his headset was
Speaker 5: wristband one four five, And he looked at his wristband
Speaker 5: and then I think he hudded, but it was just
Speaker 5: on the wristband. And now the reason they did that
Speaker 5: is just a more efficient way to make sure the
Speaker 5: whole play call got in and I had to pull
Speaker 5: it up. But the you know, the play call is
Speaker 5: something like you know whatever protection and it was like
Speaker 5: excellent Z follow or something like that.
Speaker 1: So they had the whole play call which communicated to
Speaker 1: the players. But in that.
Speaker 5: Context, it was just a more efficient way to get
Speaker 5: the concept to the folds. The other thing you'll see
Speaker 5: tempo teams do, and you see a lot at the
Speaker 5: high school level, they'll give everybody risk bands so that
Speaker 5: the coaches when they're doing these signals, they don't have
Speaker 5: to have as we talked about with like the air
Speaker 5: rate system, they have to have a signal for every play.
Speaker 5: But one of the problems is if you want to
Speaker 5: change your plays or have different concepts, or you've got
Speaker 5: tags so you know, meaning that you have three or
Speaker 5: four words to call the play. So you don't have
Speaker 5: to make three or four signals. You could just signal
Speaker 5: everybody twenty two and then the whole team looks at
Speaker 5: their their wristband and then they know what to do.
Speaker 1: To flip to the other side of the ball.
Speaker 5: Good example of this is Gary Patterson at TCU, who
Speaker 5: has to deal a lot of up tempo teams in
Speaker 5: the Big twelve. He's got a very crisp and well
Speaker 5: thought out system for calling his defenses. And I don't
Speaker 5: just mean calling the coverage, but there's what Gary Patterson
Speaker 5: does on defense.
Speaker 1: He'll he calls.
Speaker 5: Different coverages the different sides of the field. He often
Speaker 5: also often calls a trips check, meaning.
Speaker 1: That we'll do this eatside of field.
Speaker 5: But then if the lineup and Trips will call this
Speaker 5: other coverage, and then he's got what he wants the
Speaker 5: front to line up in, meaning where did the defensive
Speaker 5: line and the linebackers line up. And then he'll have
Speaker 5: stunts and blitzes which tell and he can put him
Speaker 5: in combination so that guys can do different things, which
Speaker 5: is a great system, but as you can imagine, it
Speaker 5: can get wordy, and so when you're going against Oklahoma
Speaker 5: or Texas Tech or whoever's going fast, you got to
Speaker 5: communicate it quickly. And Gary Patterson is well known that
Speaker 5: he started having all his defensive players wear wristbands and so,
Speaker 5: which is a great system, but there was a great
Speaker 5: moment on the Coaches Show the Coach's Film Room this
Speaker 5: year for the Rose Bull when Gary Patterson was there,
Speaker 5: and then Dana Holgerson was there, and and Major Apple
Speaker 5: White who used to be in the Big twelve and
Speaker 5: if he was a Texas in a couple of places,
Speaker 5: and they were talking about a player I mentioned earlier
Speaker 5: from air raids to some ninety five with the White
Speaker 5: Cross because Oklahoma ran a few times and all those.
Speaker 1: Air RAA guys know it, and.
Speaker 5: Gary Patterson's offensive corners for air ray guys. But and
Speaker 5: they were joking about, oh, we know the signal for
Speaker 5: ninety five and had to change the signal, and then
Speaker 5: I think it was Major Apple apple White, but it
Speaker 5: could have been. Holgerson turned to Patterson and said, do
Speaker 5: your players all still look at their wristbands whenever you
Speaker 5: call it blitz? And Patterson's face like dropped and everyone
Speaker 5: and like you had like Billima and those guys like
Speaker 5: burst out laughing, uh.
Speaker 1: And it's and and and it was.
Speaker 5: It was funny because Patterson's blitzes are worthier than his
Speaker 5: base calls. So they had picked up on a little tell,
Speaker 5: which is and he said it it's someone. It was
Speaker 5: like it was like that was like Big twelve knowledge.
Speaker 5: It was as like, yeah, you know, you tell your
Speaker 5: players if they look at the wristband, they're bringing the lips.
Speaker 5: That's that's that's a good coaching point you give them
Speaker 5: during the week.
Speaker 3: Well, you you enter into territory that we had planned
Speaker 3: to ask about. And hopefully it's not too CD. But
Speaker 3: of course everyone knows about Spygate and what went on
Speaker 3: in the NFL, And look, it goes on at all
Speaker 3: levels of competitive sports. I don't care if it's baseball
Speaker 3: or basketball or football. There is always some kind of
Speaker 3: operation to break another team's signals. How complex is that
Speaker 3: operation on the college level, How difficult is it to
Speaker 3: actually pick off a tel kind of like you've described
Speaker 3: with Gary Patterson.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd say it's not actually that hard to pick up.
Speaker 5: How complex it is is a good question.
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't know. You know, I couldn't
Speaker 1: tell you if you took the SEC.
Speaker 5: Program X, which has a lot of they all have
Speaker 5: a lot of resources and people. Do they have people
Speaker 5: who are just basically trying to crack the code all
Speaker 5: the time. Probably, I'm not sure exactly what they what
Speaker 5: kind of operation they have. I can tell you from
Speaker 5: the other side, there's a couple of different schools of
Speaker 5: thought on it. One is, and I probably lean more
Speaker 5: to this, is that if the other team is spending
Speaker 5: that much time trying to crack your signals, then they
Speaker 5: probably and then trying to actually figure out what that means,
Speaker 5: communicate it, and then and then make it actionable for
Speaker 5: the defense in a way that they could actually do
Speaker 5: something about it. Especially in a world where players can
Speaker 5: check plays and you have you know, RPOs that can
Speaker 5: be different types of plays, it probably.
Speaker 1: Does the more harm than good.
Speaker 5: I was talking to a high school coach recently talked
Speaker 5: about that, you know, the opponent they you know, at halftime,
Speaker 5: he could tell these guys were stealing their signals, but
Speaker 5: they were killing them. And so they they did a
Speaker 5: couple of things where they kind of faked the signal
Speaker 5: and then ran like a faken go or something.
Speaker 1: But then also they just kept doing it. Then after
Speaker 1: the game they.
Speaker 5: Won by like forty point, the other guy was like,
Speaker 5: I was all over your signals, and it was like, okay,
Speaker 5: very helpful and and and actually it could work against
Speaker 5: you because you're you're you know, especially if you're facing
Speaker 5: an up tempo team where you're trying to tell your
Speaker 5: players watch for this or that and they're not bringing.
Speaker 1: Their keys, it could work against you.
Speaker 5: I will say that means if you're not an up
Speaker 5: tempo team, it may not make a lot of sense
Speaker 5: to be saying they're doing your signals to where the
Speaker 5: other team can pick them up, because then it maybe
Speaker 5: becomes a little more actionable. The other thing you think
Speaker 5: about at the college level is and I've talked to
Speaker 5: head coaches about this, and they say that one of
Speaker 5: the bad parts if you're the signaler and you're a
Speaker 5: head coach is the TV cameras always on you. And
Speaker 5: so I know for a fact that that staffs will
Speaker 5: line up the TV the TV broadcast with the All
Speaker 5: twenty two film. I know they do it in the
Speaker 5: off season, and I'm sure some of them do it
Speaker 5: during the season to see if they can pick up
Speaker 5: signals that way and line them up and figure that out.
Speaker 1: So it look it happens.
Speaker 5: It's it's it's a question of how actionable it is
Speaker 5: and is it a problem?
Speaker 1: And then how do you respawn?
Speaker 5: Because the answer from if you're going to keep them
Speaker 5: from cracking the code is to make your system more complex,
Speaker 5: but probably the biggest thing is just to be intelligent
Speaker 5: about it. One of the two I'll mention is one
Speaker 5: is that I've talked to a bunch of coaches about this.
Speaker 1: One of the hardest.
Speaker 5: Things in that if you're going to signal or do
Speaker 5: any kind of up tempo is how do you indicate direction.
Speaker 5: It's it's it's the thing no one thinks about. But
Speaker 5: if you've got to play power or counter or even
Speaker 5: your past protection scheme, right or left can often be
Speaker 5: a it's sort of like cracking these like you know,
Speaker 5: these like World War two codes, like if you can
Speaker 5: find the common link, then you can use that to
Speaker 5: crack the rest of the code. And it's it's very
Speaker 5: often the thing that can be a giveaway, and you
Speaker 5: have to do it one way or the other. If
Speaker 5: you use code words, you see a lot of teams
Speaker 5: try to come up with the two ways.
Speaker 1: One.
Speaker 5: You just have a bunch of different ways, say right
Speaker 5: or left, and then somemes. You you know, if you
Speaker 5: take Auburn, for example, they can say right or left.
Speaker 5: They could say red white, they could say colors differings. Alabama,
Speaker 5: I know for the last few years, they may change
Speaker 5: it for next year. For a lot of their run
Speaker 5: plays use north and south a lot that's a code
Speaker 5: word for right or left. So if they've got a
Speaker 5: run play, they can say it and they say north
Speaker 5: or south that means right or left. The other way
Speaker 5: to do it is to actually combine the substance of
Speaker 5: the play with the directional term. And so a term
Speaker 5: you'll see and like every single playbook, but it has
Speaker 5: different meanings. Is you see a lot of like righty lefty,
Speaker 5: ram lyon rip liz for some reason. Is this football
Speaker 5: term that shows up in every playbook because it's just
Speaker 5: a single syllable that.
Speaker 1: Means right or left. You can also do it with
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 5: Alabama for their protection schemes, the jack jill is one,
Speaker 5: so jack being right, Jill being left for a six
Speaker 5: man half live protection. So you just you do it
Speaker 5: that way and then you can also do things the
Speaker 5: other one. You see a lot a lot of teams
Speaker 5: put their Z receiver on the right and their X
Speaker 5: and the left, so you can use X and Z
Speaker 5: words so you know, exceon and zebra stuff like that
Speaker 5: to combine them.
Speaker 1: So you could you can you can do it.
Speaker 5: So the point being, if you've got a robust system,
Speaker 5: that's that's that uses multiple signalers a few different ways
Speaker 5: the signal. You can do some code words or you
Speaker 5: can do signals, and then it's not easy to tell
Speaker 5: at some point it's diminishing returns. She just had to
Speaker 5: try to spend a lot of time on this stuff
Speaker 5: and then really make it actionable. As long as you
Speaker 5: change it somewhat regularly. The challenge is always going to
Speaker 5: be your your in conference, your division opponents, the people
Speaker 5: you play multiple times a year, because those are people
Speaker 5: are going to pick up on it. The last anecdote
Speaker 5: I'll give is a couple of years ago. It was
Speaker 5: a famous sort of tete a tete about this. You know,
Speaker 5: Baker Mayfield of course.
Speaker 1: Had many.
Speaker 5: Many people he wasn't very happy with, especially coming out
Speaker 5: of his recruiting process and his transfer process.
Speaker 1: So I stored a few years ago.
Speaker 5: When the year he sat out at Oklahoma, his quarterback
Speaker 5: coach at Texas Tech when he was freshman with Sonny Comby,
Speaker 5: who went and then after that left and became a
Speaker 5: co offensive coord at TCU, And then of course Baker
Speaker 5: was at Oklahoma and there's a story and Gary Patterson
Speaker 5: after the game said that Baker Mayfield was standing on
Speaker 5: the sideline next to I don't know if it was
Speaker 5: Stoops or some other defensive coach watching Sonny Comby to
Speaker 5: steal their signals and then telling them their signals during
Speaker 5: that whole game. And I think Baker basically was like, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, like like I knew their signals. They were
Speaker 5: using the same ones with a Texas tech just in
Speaker 5: what I could do. I think they they all made
Speaker 5: the point, didn't make that big of a difference because
Speaker 5: they could only so much they could do. But it
Speaker 5: is something you just had to be intelligent about it.
Speaker 5: You have to have a backup plan. You have to,
Speaker 5: you know, there are I've talked to high school coaches
Speaker 5: where they like I was in the second quarter and
Speaker 5: it was clear the other team knew our signals and
Speaker 5: so we had to do something. And often the other
Speaker 5: thing to remember you can use it to your advantage.
Speaker 1: Saw Peyton Manning.
Speaker 5: Give a talk not that long ago, and actually I
Speaker 5: asked them about this because I remember the play. It
Speaker 5: was like the year he broke like the touchdown record
Speaker 5: and the first game they hit like a like a
Speaker 5: receiver screen. A couple of times, I can't remember the
Speaker 5: code word, but he would often audible the receiver screens
Speaker 5: at the line when he's got a favorable look, and
Speaker 5: then he used a code word. And then in like
Speaker 5: the third or fourth quarter, he used the same word,
Speaker 5: and then they ran the fake pump and go screen.
Speaker 1: And then went for a touchdown.
Speaker 5: And I asked him and he didn't come out to
Speaker 5: say it, but he confirmed that they that was an
Speaker 5: adjustment they made that they thought the other teams, the Ravens,
Speaker 5: were trying to steal the code word, that that was
Speaker 5: the receiver screen. So then they just said, I mean,
Speaker 5: talk about a great fake. Not only do you pump
Speaker 5: and you fake the play, but pre snap you make
Speaker 5: the same whatever he was, you know, you know, like
Speaker 5: rocket screen or something. You say rocket and then everyone's
Speaker 5: from the fake screen. That's really how you fake them out,
Speaker 5: because they actually have they think they're they've caught onto
Speaker 5: your tail.
Speaker 1: So you can use it. You can always break the
Speaker 1: Tennessee and use.
Speaker 5: It offensively to your advantage, even if you think the
Speaker 5: other side stealing your signals.
Speaker 4: Picture boards on the sideline, are they a thing? Are
Speaker 4: they not? A thing. Are they sort of a thing? Uh?
Speaker 5: There, there they are. They are definitely a sort of
Speaker 5: a thing. You know, they're They're actually a surprisingly controversial
Speaker 5: topic in the in the coaching world. In that I've
Speaker 5: I've I'm always surprised, even up Temple people are like, oh,
Speaker 5: those stupid coaching boards or picture boards, Like I hate
Speaker 5: those things. I think the thing to remember about them
Speaker 5: is that unless you have like sixty boards in your sidelines,
Speaker 5: they can only convey so much information because you're gonna
Speaker 5: run a lot of different plays. So there's a lot
Speaker 5: of coaches who will tell you that they'll use them,
Speaker 5: and they literally are just dummies. They just hold them up,
Speaker 5: and then it just it just is a distraction from
Speaker 5: someone actually stealing their real signals, and then there's a
Speaker 5: merit to that.
Speaker 1: I think most.
Speaker 5: Teams that use them use them for some limited purpose,
Speaker 5: and then it's also a way for everyone to have
Speaker 5: fun with it. I think, uh, the most common.
Speaker 1: Way to use them, and there's a couple of sect
Speaker 1: at schools and I know, we'll do it this way.
Speaker 5: They have a couple of different signalers and then which
Speaker 5: boards or which side of the boards you hold up
Speaker 5: basically tells the players which.
Speaker 1: Signaler to look at, which one's.
Speaker 5: Live, and then that's the way to just create some
Speaker 5: confusion around uh, you know, the so the signals can't
Speaker 5: get stolen, and that's something you can change quarter by
Speaker 5: quarter or you know, you know each half of which
Speaker 5: which side of what board is right, and it can
Speaker 5: take a while for the defense to and the coaches
Speaker 5: to figure that out. And then there's other things you
Speaker 5: could use that As I talked about the directional the
Speaker 5: right left, it can solve that problem if you hold
Speaker 5: up you know, whatever side of that that can mean
Speaker 5: right and the other side can mean left. So and
Speaker 5: then and then you can get even more complex with
Speaker 5: if you hold it up and then a certain similar
Speaker 5: is doing this, that means you're running this type of play,
Speaker 5: and then other ones you're getting code words. So you
Speaker 5: know some of the I use Malas on example, because
Speaker 5: I don't really worry about anyone stealing his stuff because
Speaker 5: he has probably the most complex system that I understand
Speaker 5: parts of it, but I certainly don't understand all of it,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure he changes it a lot, where it
Speaker 5: involves the boards and involves signalers and involves code words
Speaker 5: and involves communication, and then different things will mean different different.
Speaker 1: Different things will be.
Speaker 5: Different things depending on what kind of play call he
Speaker 5: uses a lot about series like this will be live
Speaker 5: on pass plays, it's.
Speaker 1: On run plays, I's on specials, that kind of thing.
Speaker 5: So, but the picture boards in his system typically will
Speaker 5: tell you which signal to look at, or it can
Speaker 5: be a directional term.
Speaker 4: We've talked to a couple coaches and players who all
Speaker 4: actually sort of said the same thing about coaches consulting
Speaker 4: players when it comes to favorite plays installation and saying, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm third and seven plus what types of plays do
Speaker 4: you like between the twenties or something like that, and
Speaker 4: across the board, everybody says they, you know, coaches will
Speaker 4: consult players because they want them to run what they're
Speaker 4: most comfortable with. Does that sort of carry over to
Speaker 4: communication methods Coaches sort of taking into account how players
Speaker 4: are best used as communicators that like, sometimes they'll experiment with,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe this quarterback is better with like longer verbage,
Speaker 4: Maybe this quarterback is better with shorter verbage and conveying
Speaker 4: and communicating. Ultimately, these quarterbacks have to be able to
Speaker 4: either quickly or coherently tell everybody or tell some people
Speaker 4: to play. Do communication methods vary based on player or
Speaker 4: quarterback preferences, I'm not.
Speaker 1: Sure if methods do.
Speaker 5: I think that ends up being like a team function,
Speaker 5: and so that a lot a lot goes into it.
Speaker 1: There's obviously other players, there's what.
Speaker 5: Kind of tempo they want to do, what just seems
Speaker 5: most efficient, And I think it's also hard to do
Speaker 5: that sort of in season.
Speaker 1: Those are typically you know, season to season.
Speaker 5: Judgments, and it's often a reaction to, you know, can
Speaker 5: we get faster? Can we get slower? Do we need
Speaker 5: to add more offense to to have a wider variety
Speaker 5: of things like maybe we were really fast, but we
Speaker 5: just couldn't We weren't very flexible. But I do think
Speaker 5: in terms of what the signals are and what the
Speaker 5: code words are, almost every code you talk to will
Speaker 5: tell you. The more you can make the players involved
Speaker 5: in that, the better, because for no other reason, they
Speaker 5: will remember whatever it is. More if if if you
Speaker 5: or I come out there and be like, we're gonna
Speaker 5: run power, We're on an inside zone, we're gonna run
Speaker 5: this pass play, and here are the signals and here's
Speaker 5: the code words. You know that people might retain some
Speaker 5: of that, but it's gonna take more time. But if
Speaker 5: you say you make them take ownership of what the
Speaker 5: signal are, the signals are, they're gonna remember it because
Speaker 5: they came up with it on their own and they'll
Speaker 5: talk about it. You also get the better of them
Speaker 5: talking about it when they're not at practice and in
Speaker 5: the meeting you're actually talking football, so you get a
Speaker 5: lot of benefits of that. I think a lot of
Speaker 5: that stuff gets worked out in the.
Speaker 1: Spring or the summer even And again, the more organic
Speaker 1: you can make it.
Speaker 5: And the more the more ownership the players have, the better.
Speaker 1: And then and that's where.
Speaker 5: Language is dynamic, right, I mean, this is where you
Speaker 5: know our language, English language, you.
Speaker 1: Know all this stuff.
Speaker 5: It's they evolve their dynamic, all that David Foster Wallace
Speaker 5: stuff and linguistics. So it often takes the life of
Speaker 5: its own. I mean you have again, I use like
Speaker 5: mamin Vin has got a very formal, rigid here's this
Speaker 5: and that. But the one reason those air raid guys
Speaker 5: do a pretty good job of it and it actually
Speaker 5: survives even though it's pretty simple, is it's it ends
Speaker 5: up being more like how people communicate and that they
Speaker 5: kind of figure it out and then they're able to
Speaker 5: do really subtle moves that even though you think you
Speaker 5: could pick up on it, it's you know, you just
Speaker 5: miss it, and so it becomes a little more of
Speaker 5: organic and it's, uh, you know it really is.
Speaker 1: It's just learning another language.
Speaker 5: I think Seth La Trail was on there on your
Speaker 5: show talking about that it's just like learning a language.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's learning another language, learning sign language.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's all. It is, fair enough.
Speaker 4: And I'm sure you saw the I think it was
Speaker 4: called the Two Bills, Bill Parcels and Bill Belichick, And
Speaker 4: one of those sort of antidotes was anecdotes was Bill
Speaker 4: Parcell's killing Bill Belichick calls. You know, the call would
Speaker 4: come in and as you know, traditionally, you know, a
Speaker 4: head coach would hear the call and either not say
Speaker 4: anything or tweak it or whatever, or say you know,
Speaker 4: no that we're not doing that whatever, we're doing this.
Speaker 4: When now we are in an up tempo age where
Speaker 4: a head coach killing a caller, adjusting a call takes seconds,
Speaker 4: takes time going back and forth with a coordinator. Is
Speaker 4: that dynamic still around where coaches will go and back
Speaker 4: and forth with the coordinator to get the call that
Speaker 4: they want, or are coordinators now more empowered to just
Speaker 4: sort of go go without having torry about a play
Speaker 4: call getting killed.
Speaker 5: I think I think there's not enough time if you're
Speaker 5: if you are a go go, up tembo team to
Speaker 5: do it between plays.
Speaker 1: You know, at most it's.
Speaker 5: Like one word like no, yes, run, you know, and
Speaker 5: then maybe cand blurt out something. I think what it
Speaker 5: does is it one one reason why you see a
Speaker 5: lot of these up tempo play callers or head coaches
Speaker 5: because because they're they're they're they're they're not delegating that stuff.
Speaker 5: They're doing it themselves. And so the second is that
Speaker 5: there's a lot of in between serious communications. So there's
Speaker 5: a lot of between serious saying that work, that didn't
Speaker 5: work this next series? What are your top you know,
Speaker 5: you get a couple of guys, especially the guy in
Speaker 5: the box. There's a lot of these play callers signalers
Speaker 5: on the sidelines, So there's that that kind of communication
Speaker 5: is you know, what are the top three things that
Speaker 5: you that you see, what are they doing to this?
Speaker 5: And then what can we call? And then you kind
Speaker 5: of work out a plan and then you try to
Speaker 5: get the drive started and then that then that's also
Speaker 5: where you've got to have a an organized play call
Speaker 5: sheet because the sort of going back to the old
Speaker 5: Bill Walsh stuff, the goal, the goal is to get
Speaker 5: to the point where all this stuff has been thought
Speaker 5: through during the week, and so you should be able
Speaker 5: to You've coached them on enough, you've seen, they've seen
Speaker 5: the situation.
Speaker 1: You got flexible enough calls.
Speaker 5: With r p O s and whatever it is that
Speaker 5: you can on many situations just look or most you
Speaker 5: just look down at your sheet and call the next
Speaker 5: play on the sheet for that situation. And that should
Speaker 5: be as simple as it is, and if you're not
Speaker 5: having a terrible day, that should be how it works.
Speaker 5: Not to say it works all the way in practice.
Speaker 5: They come up with a different defense. You can't block
Speaker 5: a guy, you know, you have an injury. There's different
Speaker 5: things that tourtally can supersede that. But that that puts
Speaker 5: a lot of pressure actually on your call sheet because
Speaker 5: the best, to me, the best nohel play callers are
Speaker 5: people who aren't really doing a lot of Like I
Speaker 5: just came up with this brilliant call in the moment,
Speaker 5: they're just looking at the call sheet and calling the
Speaker 5: next call.
Speaker 4: So that means, yeah, that was my sort of follow
Speaker 4: up is just sort of tiny. And an extension of
Speaker 4: that is situationally how much is on that call sheet?
Speaker 4: How much is sort of situationally determined ahead of time?
Speaker 4: You know, is it you know every third and third
Speaker 4: down situation distance and place of field? You know, is
Speaker 4: every you know, thirty second offense, two minute offense, goal line,
Speaker 4: red zone? Like how intricate is it situationally pre determined?
Speaker 5: Totally depends on the play caller. I mean we use
Speaker 5: Mike Leads to an example. I mean he's got like
Speaker 5: five categories. It's called she's got openers. There's like twenty plays.
Speaker 5: He's got third and long, third and short coming out,
Speaker 5: going in and specials and screens and then and that's
Speaker 5: like it like right, so, and then you've got the
Speaker 5: NFL type guys where they have you know, very broken out.
Speaker 5: One thing you see a lot of no huddle guys
Speaker 5: is that they like to they'll do it by hash
Speaker 5: mark on the left, hash right, hash midle of the field,
Speaker 5: which I think is a clever thing because you end
Speaker 5: up using the leverage of the field a little better.
Speaker 5: And then and then you also can break it out
Speaker 5: into what part of the field you are and you
Speaker 5: backed up, Are you in the middle or you in
Speaker 5: sort of the outer red zone, the green zone, all
Speaker 5: those different things and so and it's just broken down.
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 5: The other thing you got to you remember is that
Speaker 5: you do it proportionally based on how many of those
Speaker 5: situations you have.
Speaker 1: In a game.
Speaker 5: So most teams go into the under the game, you know,
Speaker 5: with for two point.
Speaker 1: Plays, it's it's.
Speaker 5: One, maybe two, and then often they don't call them
Speaker 5: and they go four weeks and they have the same
Speaker 5: one on that situation for two point plays. The good
Speaker 5: teams only have so many third and long calls because
Speaker 5: there's so many third and lungs you actually really encounter
Speaker 5: in a game. You have a lot of first and
Speaker 5: second down calls, you know, third and short, second and short,
Speaker 5: the sort of things.
Speaker 1: You just have a couple. So it actually works out
Speaker 1: if you do it. You know, you organize it. You
Speaker 1: don't have like ten ten, ten, ten ten for every situation.
Speaker 5: It's proportional, so you know your total is not overwhelming.
Speaker 5: And then it's just the feel of the play caller.
Speaker 5: You know, do they feel like they need more more categories?
Speaker 1: Is that helpful?
Speaker 5: It's also something Kyle Shanahan's you know, call sheet has
Speaker 5: like very intricate. He's got like every situation broken out
Speaker 5: and different things, and that allows him to go to
Speaker 5: the situation more quickly because he's got some complicated calls
Speaker 5: he's trying to get to. Or is again he used
Speaker 5: like a Mike Leach, It's like, just call the next.
Speaker 1: Thing, Chris.
Speaker 3: We're going to get you out here with two quick ones.
Speaker 3: My first, and it's sort of a question we've been
Speaker 3: asking all of our guests here during scheme theme, but
Speaker 3: we talk a lot about emerging trends, about evolutions of
Speaker 3: be it a scheme or some other element of the game.
Speaker 3: Is there any innovation afoot as it relates to communication.
Speaker 3: We talked earlier about technology and the impact perhaps that
Speaker 3: it is having on the way that plays are called.
Speaker 3: Is there anything else that you find particularly interesting about
Speaker 3: the means that teams are using to communicate their plays.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess a couple of things, but I think
Speaker 5: the biggest drivers is technology and rule. So it's just
Speaker 5: a different world in the NFL where you've got the.
Speaker 1: Helmet radio, so you can communicate.
Speaker 5: And I think one of the interesting trends you saw,
Speaker 5: actually Chip Kelly was doing this a lot with the
Speaker 5: tempo stuff, but the guy who probably did a better
Speaker 5: Sean McVay there with the rams, is that.
Speaker 1: In the NFL, almost to pick this up.
Speaker 5: They get the play call early and then but trying
Speaker 5: to get lined up quickly so the radio is still
Speaker 5: running and so they can basically have an ongoing dialogue
Speaker 5: quarterback about what they see and then even audible and
Speaker 5: things with you still keep coaching them all the way
Speaker 5: up to that moment by getting lined up more quickly,
Speaker 5: which a big advantage over getting lined up with four
Speaker 5: seconds left and you just have to call to play.
Speaker 1: I think you know you can't do that in college obviously.
Speaker 5: I think one thing you're seeing is that I think
Speaker 5: more teams are moving to almost a pure signaling system
Speaker 5: because I think the fear is that the code words
Speaker 5: are a little bit easier to crack. And then obviously
Speaker 5: you can then run up in a very loud stadium
Speaker 5: and it's hard to communicate and things like that, and
Speaker 5: then obviously signaling to the line and everyone is it
Speaker 5: can be you know a little more efficient. The downside
Speaker 5: of that that I think you wouldn't think about is
Speaker 5: it depends on who your signaling is the offensive line
Speaker 5: is because you have to practice all this stuff, and
Speaker 5: you have to if you're doing it right, you should
Speaker 5: be calling plays in practice the same way you win
Speaker 5: in the games. And if your offensive line coach or
Speaker 5: assistant offensive line coaches signaling the offensive line, they can't
Speaker 5: stand in practice where they would normally stand, which is
Speaker 5: behind the offensive line. So that's one reason why you
Speaker 5: actually have a lot offensive line coaches will resist that,
Speaker 5: and they like the quarterback giving the code word.
Speaker 1: But I do think teams are increasingly.
Speaker 5: Going to signals because I think the thought is that
Speaker 5: the signals are a little harder to crack. But I
Speaker 5: think the only other thing is is that tension of
Speaker 5: how fast can we go versus how much flexibility and
Speaker 5: how much complexity can we add in Because the days
Speaker 5: of just running fifteen plays out of four formations really
Speaker 5: fast and having the defense off kilters is quickly going.
Speaker 5: By the wayside, defenses are too good.
Speaker 1: They're able to react, they.
Speaker 5: Can call complex stuff on defense and sort of shut
Speaker 5: you down.
Speaker 1: So how can we efficiently do that.
Speaker 5: That's why I mentioned you know, Scott Frost, because I
Speaker 5: think he's been He's taken the chip Kelly system and
Speaker 5: has added a wider variety of run schemes, more formations,
Speaker 5: more of things like that I used, you know, not
Speaker 5: that they were Juggernaut this year, but Jeff Brohm there
Speaker 5: at Purdue, but especially when he's at Western Kentucky, he
Speaker 5: took kind of the pro style system they learned in
Speaker 5: the NFL and from Petrino, and he took the whole system,
Speaker 5: but he made it one hundred percent. You can run
Speaker 5: the whole offense of no huddle, which I think has
Speaker 5: interesting implications if you could run a true profile system
Speaker 5: but where everything is signals is in aesthentsics. I should
Speaker 5: say exciting because it gives you a lot more flexibility
Speaker 5: to do a wider variety of things. It could still audible,
Speaker 5: you know the things that that you know, when an
Speaker 5: uptemple offense is rolling, it looks great. But then when
Speaker 5: it gets shut down again us chip Kelly example, you
Speaker 5: can't audible.
Speaker 1: You can't you know, adjust to the defense. You can
Speaker 1: get you can get bogged down. So I think that's
Speaker 1: really where it is is that can you come up
Speaker 1: with simple, easy.
Speaker 5: To learn things that actually give you enough flexibility so
Speaker 5: that when Alabama and Nick Saban show up with a
Speaker 5: thousand defenses, that you're not just stuck running like fourteen plays,
Speaker 5: because all of a sudden you go from looking like
Speaker 5: you're the greatest offense in the world to like you
Speaker 5: no longer have the answers.
Speaker 3: All right, Chris, We're going to get you out of
Speaker 3: here with perhaps the hardest question yet. What is the
Speaker 3: longest play that you can both remember and recite on
Speaker 3: the podcast today?
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, I can't. I'm not doing this. I'm sorry, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I can like look them up and all that.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just sort of a I try to
Speaker 5: block that stuff from my mind.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not.
Speaker 5: Trying to do the the Kyle Shanahan John Cruden thing,
Speaker 5: you know, like I write forty two blasts seven z jet.
Speaker 5: I feel like when people do that, they often throw
Speaker 5: in a couple of those as you brought up tize
Speaker 5: like to kill well.
Speaker 1: They like the extra play, so they like it makes
Speaker 1: it sound like really long.
Speaker 5: But really they've called like four plays and then now
Speaker 5: we have like seven unnecessary shifts.
Speaker 1: So if you really want, I can try to dig
Speaker 1: something out. I mean I can.
Speaker 5: We can make it as long as we want. But
Speaker 5: I mean, and I think that's the But that's the
Speaker 5: interesting tension, right is it's you know, do we literally
Speaker 5: need a play where we tell a formation where we
Speaker 5: have five ways to tell everyone where to line up?
Speaker 1: There's just eleven.
Speaker 5: Guys, and then do we need to tell all eleven
Speaker 5: players individually what to do? Or can we try to
Speaker 5: break down in a way that's coherent? But then we're
Speaker 5: not stuck calling forty two blasts over and over again.
Speaker 5: So if someone else has a better answer than me,
Speaker 5: that's that's that's that's fine.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to get with that. Mantle.
Speaker 2: Let's go with forty two blasts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll stick with that.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm fine with that. His name is Chris B. Brown.
Speaker 3: You can find him and all of his fine work
Speaker 3: out on smartfootball dot com. Chris, this was incredible, Dan,
Speaker 3: Is that the right way to characterize illuminating?
Speaker 2: Illuminating? This was tremendous. Thank you so much for all
Speaker 2: your time.
Speaker 1: Trust me, my pleasure.
Speaker 5: And also when you guys get critiques and corrections, silver
Speaker 5: to pass in my way.
Speaker 4: We will, we will get we will add all addendums
Speaker 4: to your inbox.
Speaker 3: All right, Dan, Again, that is Chris B. Brown from
Speaker 3: Smartfootball dot Com. If you've listened to the program, you
Speaker 3: know that we've had Chris on the show over the years,
Speaker 3: again to learn all about the x's and o's of
Speaker 3: college football.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: Today though his insight was particularly tasty, and so tasty
Speaker 3: that he very much earned the moniker Chris by Brown
Speaker 3: that we've given to him over the year. It just
Speaker 3: I am blown away by the complexity of all this.
Speaker 3: I am a nerd at heart, as I know you
Speaker 3: are as well. To hear the thought, to hear the
Speaker 3: fact that they made up their own language, that they
Speaker 3: have to that it requires them to make up their
Speaker 3: own language. That makes my heart smile, Dan. That makes
Speaker 3: me so happy that we do what we do because
Speaker 3: it's just so damn nerdy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it is kind of crazy that Chris
Speaker 4: is not a full time football writer. He just writes
Speaker 4: books because he loves the stuff, and you know, wrote
Speaker 4: for grant Land, Espiona and all these plays. Is it's
Speaker 4: it's so cool, and that's so the crispiness is that
Speaker 4: the caramelization of knowledge, Tie, Oh yeah, the caramelization. No,
Speaker 4: it's it's all fascinating. I will not watch a football
Speaker 4: game pro, college, high school the same way. There will
Speaker 4: be now certain things I'll be looking for and that
Speaker 4: I'm going to be one hundred percent honest.
Speaker 1: Tie.
Speaker 4: This has made me and I was already excited to
Speaker 4: watch Nebraska football, but I'm actually now like, oh my,
Speaker 4: Nebraska's coming into the modern era and they're going to
Speaker 4: be doing like this is going to be super fun.
Speaker 4: So even if Nebraska year one doesn't, you know, overwhelmingly impressed,
Speaker 4: maybe it takes a year two to get the quarterback
Speaker 4: situation situated. The Scott Frost stuff, you know, Chip Kelly
Speaker 4: at UCLA should be very interesting to Bruins fans, Pack
Speaker 4: twelve fans. You know, Auburn had had a nice bounce
Speaker 4: back year in no small part because of the offense
Speaker 4: getting back to where it should be. And you know,
Speaker 4: Clemson obviously hasn't missed a step running tempo stuff. But
Speaker 4: it's all super fascinating to me. And God, now I'm
Speaker 4: going to watch every ETCU game to see if those
Speaker 4: guys look dowt at their wrisk risk comes.
Speaker 3: After I gotta go load up Madden and see if
Speaker 3: these plays make any more sense now in hindsight, knowing
Speaker 3: the terminology, knowing at least a little bit about the
Speaker 3: convention of the language of football, very insightful. We appreciate
Speaker 3: Chris's time spent like an hour with us talking about
Speaker 3: all things football communications. So Scheme Theme Month rolls on again,
Speaker 3: presented by our good friends over at Oliver's Apparel Oliver'sparel
Speaker 3: dot Com. Use the code Solidy'll knock fifteen percent off
Speaker 3: your order.
Speaker 4: It's getting sunny out ty. You gotta prepare. You're gonna
Speaker 4: be outdoor to prepare.
Speaker 2: Gotta prepare.
Speaker 3: We've got more Scheme Theme Month content ahead, but for
Speaker 3: the interim, Dan, I need to go and catch my breath,
Speaker 3: do it. I need to get some food and recharge
Speaker 3: for another great show that we've got planned a week
Speaker 3: from now.
Speaker 4: Okay, I listen, I'm right there with you. I gotta
Speaker 4: sit down. I gotta take take a breather here. I
Speaker 4: don't want to pull a hammy getting so excited about
Speaker 4: these x's and.
Speaker 3: O's or that guy over there. His name is Dan Rubinstein.
Speaker 3: And of course, for our guest of honor, Chris B.
Speaker 3: Brown from Smartfootball dot com. My name is Ty Hildebrand.
Speaker 3: We'll catch you all in a week. In the meantime,
Speaker 3: stay solid, Hey, today's show is brought to you again
Speaker 3: by our good friends over at Oliver's Apparel. Use the
Speaker 3: offer code solid for fifteen percent off your order. Also,
Speaker 3: today's show brought to you in part by our good
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