WEBVTT - #302 Guest Host Jimmy Dennis with Chester Hollman III 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.720 I'm Jason Flam, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years, 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.880 hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories, and sadly, 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.080 with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.440 with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.680 So I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases, 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.000 bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:23.439 only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:24.640 is one of those interviews. 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.240 On a hot August night in nineteen ninety one, University 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.200 of Pennsylvania grad student t jung Hoe was walking with 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.760 his friend at Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. A white Chevy 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.960 blazer with four people inside pulled up beside them. Two 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.040 of them got out of the car, robbed t jung 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.080 Hoe and shot him. He died of his injuries. A 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:55.680 few hours later. A cab driver witnessed the shooting. He 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.160 told police what he saw and what he remembered of 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:05.240 the license place the first three letters YCA. Just a 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.800 few minutes later, the police pulled over a white Chevy 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:13.920 blazer with YCA on the plate. They thought they caught 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:18.319 the criminal. He was a twenty one year old Chester 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.520 home in the third he didn't match the description of 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.760 the shooter, and there were only two people in his car, 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:29.720 not four. Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:34.319 the robbery. Nevertheless, he was arrested and taken to the station. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.920 In May nineteen ninety three, he was sentenced to life 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:45.760 in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:57.520 My name is Jimmy A. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:58.160 Dennis. 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.000 I spent twenty five point five years on death row 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.520 for a crime I didn't commit. I was a guest 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.960 on wrong for conviction and talked to Jason about my 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.600 own experience in the criminal justice system years ago. But 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.200 today I'll be your guest host. I'm here with Chester 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.000 Holme in the third He and I know each other well. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.680 Our stories overlap and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:22.600 Philadelphia criminal justice system. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.600 Chester, as Jason always says, I'm happy you're here, but 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:28.919 I'm not happy that you're here. 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:30.880 Could you introduce yourself. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.640 Chester Holman. I've served twenty eight years on a wrong 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.880 for conviction. I've now been home since twenty nineteen. 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.600 And today we're also joined by your attorney, Alan Tarboro. 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:45.440 Thank you for joining us today. 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:45.799 Alan. 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:47.760 Could you introduce yourself as well. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.000 Hi Jimmy. My name is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.639 I've been practicing law since nineteen eighty nine, most of 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:59.040 which has been criminal defense and civil rights. And I 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.960 met Chester and two thousand and four, two thousand and five, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.200 I had the distinction and honor of representing him for 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.799 fifteen years before we actually won his exoneration. Every time 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.040 I see him and talk to him outside of the prison, 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.280 it just brightens my heart. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.680 Remarkable Chester. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.040 I want to ask you, my friend, what was your 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.480 life like prior to being stolen away for a crime 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:27.160 you didn't commit. 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:32.320 I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. That's where I grew up, 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.280 and then we at some point we moved to Delaware, Womington, Delaware. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.600 You know it was I said, it was a regular life. 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:39.800 You know. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.760 My father worked very hard. You know, my mother was 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.880 on dialysis. You know, me and my sister, you know, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.160 we were involved and you know from the time I 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.840 can remember it with sports and some type of activity. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:51.840 You know. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:53.920 I went to community college and I started off at 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.240 a Wimington community college and I moved to Fildelphia Community 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.040 College and I was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:00.520 know which field I wanted to go to. I know, 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:02.560 if it was law enforcement or you know, some type 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.520 of legal field, but that's what I was doing. Then 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.200 I got a job at a as an armored card guard. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.720 I was driving for Brooks Armored Car. I went moved 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.160 to Philadelphia, down Northffilly to BroadOn Gerard and I was 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.360 there and uh, you know, just living my life. I 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.200 thought the world was my oyster, and I think I 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.400 had all these plans of how things were going to 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.960 eventually end up being and uh, just one that one 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.080 tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.960 And spent the next twenty eight years fighting to get back. 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.000 When you practice criminal defense, one of the old adages 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:39.800 is one of things you hear is that there's no 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.720 such thing as coincidences, right. But the other rule is 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.920 there's always an exception to that case, and Chester Holman's 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:50.400 case is the exception. Chester was the victim of, you know, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.680 many things, but most substantially he was a victim of 0:04:53.720 --> 0:05:00.280 a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence. And that is 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.719 in this case, which was a terrible case, a terrible 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:11.919 brutal killing of a student, the perpetrators drove up to 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.800 this young man at one am in Center City, was 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.200 walking home from a It was walking home from the 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.359 University of Pennsylvania campus, and there were four people in 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.640 a white Chevy Blazer. Two men get out, two women 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.680 remained in the cars, sort of the getaway driver. The 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.200 two men run up to the victim, push him to 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:36.120 the ground, shoot him, and rob him of his wallet. 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.320 There was a woman with him. His friend standing directly 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.720 next to him witnessed the entire thing from three feet 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:45.640 two three feet away. They get into a white Chevy 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.080 Blazer and drive away. It's one am. It's hot August night. 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.000 Actually a lot of people out in Center City and 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.840 the vehicle is trailed. Is followed by a cab driver 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.919 who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.400 the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:07.440 blocks and disappears. Yza right, that was the letters doesn't 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.400 get the numbers as the vehicle turns out to have 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.080 been rented by I think it was Enterprise. They had 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.520 three three identical vehicles on rental in Philadelphia that same 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:24.000 day and the vehicle. What made this even more astonishing 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.960 is they bought and put into service these three vehicles 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.040 at the same day, so when they registered them, they 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.280 got tags YZA zero zero one, Why ZA is year 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.640 zero two? Why is is YEZER three? And the cab 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.080 driver only got the letters that repeated, not the numbers. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.640 As it happens, Chester's driving one of those other vehicles 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.720 that had been rented by his roommate and had been 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.160 loan given to him to use that weekend. He's driving 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.760 toward the crime scene. He's stopped five minutes, not five 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.520 minutes after the murder. Driving toward the crime scene in 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.120 the idea, I dentical vehicle with the same tag, and 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.200 he meets the general description of what one of the 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.960 perpetrators look like. The young woman in the car with 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.560 him DJ Jones met the general description of of one 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.440 of the women in the car, and they stop him. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.320 And I mean, I could imagine you're a young police 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.440 officer and that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.800 just solved this crime. I got you know, you know, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.520 you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.040 solved the crime. Well, all the people involved in this 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.040 case were then convinced they solved the crime. Never mind 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.440 that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match any 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.240 of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that there 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.520 were only two people, not four people in the car. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.920 Never Mind there's no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon, 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.440 and he's driving back towards the scene. Never Mind all that. 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.320 Never Mind the fact that the young woman who was 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.400 with the person who was killed can't identify Chester. Other 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.480 than the vehicle, nothing else lined up. 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:02.600 Chester. Tell me about your note that night and you 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.360 were out, and what you were doing, and where you 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.000 were going, and whom you had with you. Talk about 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:08.960 that a little bit for me. 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.080 I had to just returned home from Delaware. I went 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.120 down to my parents' house, and I spent most of 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.120 the day in Delaware, and I was there to about 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.640 maybe midnight. I left there and I went home to 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.560 where I lived on Broad and Gerard came out the garage, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.200 went around front, and I passed Deirdre, her sister, and 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.120 I spoke to him, and Sheddre asked me where I 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.520 was going except to my apartment. So and then I said, 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:33.960 what do you want to do now? Because this was 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.080 my first full day of vacation. I had never had 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:38.640 a vacation in my life. 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:40.640 On a job. 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.880 So you know that Monday, I was starting vacation for 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.120 a week vacation and I paid vacation. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.080 Yeah that's what I'm talking about. 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.319 Yeah, so I'm excited. You know, I ain't ready to 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.040 go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like, litten, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:54.679 let's you want to go somewhere, But we didn't know 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.040 where to go. So I was like, listen, I had 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.040 a friend who lived down on a fifty second in Greenway. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.439 I sai, let's go down here check out him. So 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.920 we get downstairs, and I had a black Toyo to 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.280 Sellica GT at the time, and then we also had 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.320 the Blazer. So I asked her which car she wanted 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.439 to take, So let's take the Blazer to put the 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.480 miles on that car rather than my car. So so 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.200 we get out, we pull out, and we circle around 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.400 and we go straight down to broad Street. As soon 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.600 as we turned on to Lombard, there was I mean, 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.400 there wasn't a car or person in sight. I mean 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.160 I've never seen Philly like this. I mean it was 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.800 like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.439 but I kept going and I turned the music down 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:41.760 and we approached the first light on Lombard and I 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.720 stopped at that light and I saw a police car 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.000 going north. So when the light turned green, I proceeded 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.440 forward and you know, I'm looking in the rear view mirrors. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:54.920 Next thing, you know, the lights pop on. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.160 So I was like, damn, what did I do? 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.880 So I pull over, like a half a block down. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.600 I pull over and next thing you know, they jump 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:04.640 out with guns drawn. 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:06.280 Oh wow, I know. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:07.920 That was very uncomfortable. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:09.520 Yeah, so I asked you, I said, what we do? 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:10.000 What we do? 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.439 She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:14.520 you know, they're in front of the car with the 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.880 guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.440 up and they took us out the car and uh 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.800 put the handcuffs on us, and uh. 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:24.800 You night mare began. 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.199 Yes, tell me how. 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:32.600 You felt being arrested and then subsequently being taken to 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:37.640 the police station and what happened in that interrogation room 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.800 with those police detectives. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.719 Well, that that night, after we were put out the car, 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.160 I was placed in the back of a police car 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.719 and I saw Djre being placed in another car and 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.760 I didn't I didn't know where we were going. But 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.199 later found out we were being taken to the scene 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.199 of the crime. So when we got there, uh, there 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.560 was like maybe four or five people underneath the street. 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.120 Like I saw police officers take these four or five people, 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.800 whoever whatever it was, go to Deidrich where she was, 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.120 and they opened the back door and I saw him looking, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.679 and then they came back and did the same thing 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.560 to me, and I made sure I stuck my head 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.320 out so they could see me, and you know, everybody 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:16.920 was like I heard everybody say, that's not him, that's 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.280 not him. And then uh, I heard over the police 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.760 radio saying the guy had died. Take take the suspect 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.960 to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.199 I said, I said, you know, my first thought is 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.520 this is a murder. So you know, I was like, 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.000 what so I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got. 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.160 The wrong guy. I'm tall, you got the wrong guy. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:39.679 And when I get in. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.800 The car, when an officer said he said you're done now, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.200 he said You're never going to see the light of day. 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.600 And I was like, you know, I'm just sitting in 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.600 his back seets like, hon now, what does this happened? 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.400 So we get to aph and Race and they take 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.360 me upstairs and put me in this room that's freezing, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.080 and I see this green chair. This bolted to the floor, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.680 so they put me in this chair. They handcuffed me 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.560 to this chair, and I'm just sitting there like freezing, 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.840 like this cannot be happening. So my first interaction with 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:15.040 the officer was Detective Jeff Pyrie. He came in and 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.720 I'm a little excited, like to tell my story and 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.240 try to get this all worked out. So I'm thinking 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.480 it's gonna work out, and he comes in and punches 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.640 me right in the mouth. He said, you like killing 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.439 people in my city, right, you know what I mean. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.400 So I was just like looking at him. I ain't 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.040 know what to say or do. So I'm just sitting 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.600 there and he walks out. I'm sitting there just like stunned, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:36.760 like this is this is bad. I'm just in this 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.200 is bad. I told him. I said, I worked for 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:40.040 Brooks Armor Car. 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:41.079 You know what I mean? 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:42.680 I said, I don't know what happened, I said, but 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:44.960 I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.480 of the banks Garden Street Park, were picking up money. 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.400 I mean, I'm I got three million dollars on the 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.040 average in the back of my truck every day. 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.520 Right, You're an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:57.360 of Philadelphia. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:57.720 Period. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:58.000 Yeah. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:59.560 So I said, if I wanted to rob somebody, I'm 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.920 gonna ribe a commerce on the street. I'm gonna pull 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.160 this truck and just keep going. 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:05.640 Looking back. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:07.600 Where I feel like I really messed up was first 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.360 of all speaking to him in the first place. But 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.160 I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.959 to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:15.760 me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.880 just like bolster my innocence. And he showed him that 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.920 I had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen. 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.000 So I told him that I had a gun back 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.560 in my apartment, my work gun, and I told him 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.120 where it was in my apartment. So I got my badge, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.480 my my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my bottom 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.000 drawer inside my bedroom. And you know, later on down 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:37.960 the road, come to find out it was all used 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:38.440 against me. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.280 You did not mess up. We are taught in this 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.800 country that the police are our friends from the town. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.439 We are babies, and that we are supposed to go 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.160 down to the police station, cooperate and do us right, 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.280 And that's all you did. You did what any actual 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.120 citizen would do. Now we know that you can't even 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.000 talked to them at all because they are not trustworthy. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:08.120 That is exactly what Chester's mindset was. Because we've talked 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.120 about this, you were like, you thought they would figure 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.960 it out, they would work This is gonna get worked out. 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.559 They're going to get to the bottom of this. There's 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:19.200 a mistake. At some point, the police stop becoming detectives, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.520 they stop trying to discern the truth, and they start 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.480 becoming advocates, and they start to do. Everything they do 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.920 is to build the case, to make it stronger against 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.280 who they've in their judgment or they've decided is guilty, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.920 as opposed to continuing to investigate and try to get 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.440 to the actual truth tunnel vision. Yeah, and that is 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.320 one of the things I have learned in the system, 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:48.080 is that police the culture or the science of policing. 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.960 It's more of the culture of policing is we are 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.840 trying to get to the truth to a point. But 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.440 once we've decide or we discern in our judgment who 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.720 it is, everything that that point, because how to build 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:06.320 the case against that person. And they will ignore other evidence, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.800 they will suppress other evidence. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.480 They will hid it, they will destroy it correct, and 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:22.120 that's a problem. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.560 This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Tryaig 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.160 through its pro bono program. Greenberg Traig leverages its more 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.040 than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.000 serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.520 access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.760 Greenberg Triwerg attorneys have exonerated and freeomand in Philadelphia represent 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.000 numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.000 juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.520 twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.320 for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.760 reimagining what big law can be as a more just 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.880 world only happens by design. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.320 So, while let's talk about some of the players in 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.280 the case, can you tell me about the police investigating 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:15.720 the crime. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.720 Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.800 took the key statement in this case, which was dear 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.680 jar Jones's statement, Chester's friend who was in the car. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.160 So she signs a seven eight page, single space statement 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.640 extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:40.200 with detail that you would not be able to provide 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.120 unless you were there minute to minute. So how does 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.680 that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.560 over the course of the night, the police are interviewing 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:56.200 numerous witnesses. There probably were eight, ten, twelve people who 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.400 were interviewed who are witnesses, including Chester. So they are 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.440 gathering lots and lots of details and lots and lots 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.520 of information. And throughout the night they're going into see 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.240 Deer just saying you know, you're gonna tell us what happened. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.400 She's like, you know, she sticks to it. I'm not involved. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.800 I don't know what happened. I couldn't tell you. And 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:19.520 eventually they they get her to relent. They threaten to 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.320 take her children away, they threatened to charge her with 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.840 as a conspirator, that she's going to go to jail 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.080 for life. The straw that breaks, I think that breaks 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.000 the camel's back for her. She's not getting a lawyer, 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.879 is they walk in with Chester's statement, which of course 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.160 is completely exculpatory, and they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed. 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.159 He's testified. I mean, he's going to jail. You're not 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.639 going to help us, We'll just charge you. He's already 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.159 admitted it, which of course he didn't. So she signs 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.760 the statement and that's how this David Baker gets the statement. 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:55.560 So he David Baker was instrumental in another exoneration that 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.159 happened roughly around the same time the case was a 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.600 little was a little later Anthony Wright. Obviously, Jimmy, you 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.880 know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a year 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:15.240 before Chester, same detective samem virtually very very similar situation. 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.679 But Jimmy, it's important to note that, I mean, this 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.879 is not exclusive to David Baker. I think what you 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.960 see in the exonerations that have occurred over the past 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.879 five years and even before is a pattern of this 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.760 sort of these sort of tactics that existed across the 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.080 homicide unit. David Baker was by no means the worst 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.680 of the detectives. I think. I think David Baker was 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.320 more of a sort of ordinary regular detective who just 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.440 followed the path that was before him. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.879 That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.760 one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples, 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.760 but what happens to an apple core when you have 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.920 one bad apple ruins the whole bunch. And what we're 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.960 talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.720 ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chesterholm and 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:15.240 having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for something 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.040 that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I want 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.000 to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me about 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.600 how the police built this case against Chester. But first 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.159 let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being a 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.040 pretty important to the state's case. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:32.840 Talk about that. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.959 Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.240 may have been homeless. He was sweeping up a parking 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.120 lot at a gas station down the block from where 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:51.080 the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins had a very tough life. 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.680 He had substance abuse issues, he had mental health issues. 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.040 He had many many arrests and conditions for petty thefts 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.280 and petty offenses. He had open cases at the time, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.359 He had a bench warrant at the time, and the 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:08.719 police He's threatened to be incarcerated twelve different ways, and 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.879 basically they led him to identify Chester, make an idea 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.720 of Chester. But that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.680 recant his id years later. He was the first one 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.280 to recant. You know, we met him, I would say 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:26.119 about eight or ten years later, and he could not 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.720 have been more remorseful about doing what he did. It 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.199 was astonishing how much you remembered the lead detective, not 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:37.080 David Baker's. Another detective was now deceased. Knew where Andre 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.960 hung out. He's hung around in a certain part of 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.720 Center City, and Andre told me that for the entire 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.280 year or so between the arrest and the trial, this 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.439 detective would show up and give give him money every week. 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.240 All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.560 to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.720 Roger King had it in the file and it could 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.720 have been used to impeach him, and Roger Kin kept 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:06.639 that he hit it, so the jury didn't get the 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.120 benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the reasons 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.440 why he would not have been a credible witness. 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:17.159 So Alan, you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well. 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.239 So explain a little more about who Roger King was 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.159 and his reputation in Philadelphia at this time. 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.280 Roger King was a bit of a legend in Philadelphia, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:36.160