Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flom, host of Wrongful Conviction. Over the years,
Speaker 1: hundreds of exonreies have told me their stories, and sadly,
Speaker 1: with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
Speaker 1: with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
Speaker 1: So I've asked some axonrerees to handle some of these cases,
Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
Speaker 1: is one of those interviews. On a hot August night
Speaker 1: in one University of Pennsylvania grad students, A Jung Hope
Speaker 1: was walking with his friend near Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: A white Chevy blazer with four people inside pulled up
Speaker 1: beside them. Two of them got out of the car,
Speaker 1: robbed a jung Hoe and shot him. He died of
Speaker 1: his injuries. A few hours later. A cab driver witnessed
Speaker 1: the shooting. He told police what he saw and what
Speaker 1: he remembered of the license place the first three letters
Speaker 1: Y C A, just say. A few minutes later, the
Speaker 1: police pulled over a white Chevy Blazer with Y C
Speaker 1: A on the plate. They thought they caught the criminal.
Speaker 1: He was a twenty one year old Chester home in
Speaker 1: the third, he didn't match the description of the shooter,
Speaker 1: and there were only two people in his car, not four.
Speaker 1: Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from the robbery. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: he was arrested and taken to the station. In May,
Speaker 1: he was senting to life in prison without the possibility
Speaker 1: of parole. This is wrongful conviction. My name is Jimmy A. Dennis.
Speaker 1: I spent years on death road for a crime I
Speaker 1: didn't commit. I was a guest on role for conviction
Speaker 1: and talked to Jason about my own experience in the
Speaker 1: criminal justice system years ago. But today I'll be your
Speaker 1: guest host. I'm here with Chester home in the third.
Speaker 1: Here and I know each other well. Our stories overlap
Speaker 1: and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the Philadelphia criminal
Speaker 1: justice system. Chester. As Jason always says, I'm happy you're here,
Speaker 1: but I'm not happy that you're here. Could you introduce yourself,
Speaker 1: Um Chester Holman Uh, I've served twenty eight years on
Speaker 1: the wrong for conviction. I have now I've been home
Speaker 1: since two thousand of nineteen, and today we're also joined
Speaker 1: by your attorney, Alan Tarboro. Thank you for joining us today. Alan.
Speaker 1: Could you introduce yourself as well? HELLI, Jimmy. My name
Speaker 1: is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney. I've been practicing law
Speaker 1: since n most of which has been criminal defense and
Speaker 1: civil rights. And I met Chester and two thousand four,
Speaker 1: two thousand five. I had the distinction and honor of
Speaker 1: representative for fifteen years before we actually want his exoneration.
Speaker 1: Every time I see him and talk to him, uh
Speaker 1: outside of the prisiondents just brightens my heart. Remarkable, Chester,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, my friend, what was your
Speaker 1: life like prior to being stolen away for a crime
Speaker 1: you didn't commit. I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. Um,
Speaker 1: that's where I grew up. And then we uh, at
Speaker 1: some point we moved to Delaware, Womanton, Delaware. You know
Speaker 1: it was Um, I said it was. It was a
Speaker 1: regular life, you know with my father worked very hard.
Speaker 1: You know, my mother was on dialysis. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: me and my sister, you know, we were involved and
Speaker 1: you know from the time I remember with sports and
Speaker 1: some type of activity. You know, I went to community
Speaker 1: college and I started off at a Womanton community college
Speaker 1: and I moved to Field Up Community College and I
Speaker 1: was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't know which field
Speaker 1: I wanted to go into I know it was law
Speaker 1: enforcement or you know, some type of legal field, but
Speaker 1: that's what I was doing. And then I got a
Speaker 1: job at as an armored car guard. I was driving
Speaker 1: for Brooks Armor Car. I went moved to Philadelphia down
Speaker 1: North Philly Broad and Gerard, and uh I was there
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, just living my life. I thought
Speaker 1: the world was my oyster. And I think I had
Speaker 1: all these plans of of how things were going to
Speaker 1: eventually end up being and uh, just one that one
Speaker 1: tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end.
Speaker 1: And uh it's for the next twenty years trying to
Speaker 1: get back. When you practice criminal defense, one of the
Speaker 1: old adages is one of these you hear is like,
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as coincidences, right, But the other
Speaker 1: rule is there's always an exception of that case, and
Speaker 1: and Chester Holman's case is the exception. Chester was the
Speaker 1: victim of, you know, many things, but most substantially he
Speaker 1: was the victim of a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence.
Speaker 1: And that is in this case, which was a terrible
Speaker 1: case of a terrible, brutal killing of a student, the
Speaker 1: perpetrators drove up to this young man at one am
Speaker 1: in Center City was walking home from a I was
Speaker 1: walking home from the University of Pennsylvania campus and Um,
Speaker 1: there were four people in a white Chevy Blazer. Two
Speaker 1: of them two men get out, two women remained in
Speaker 1: the car as sort of the getaway driver. The two
Speaker 1: men run up to the victim, pushed him to the ground, Um,
Speaker 1: shoot him and and rob him of his wallet. He
Speaker 1: there was a woman with him. His friend standing directly
Speaker 1: next to him witnessed the entire thing from three ft
Speaker 1: to three ft away. They get into a white Chevy
Speaker 1: Blazer and drive away. It's one am, it's hot August night.
Speaker 1: Actually a lot of people out in Center City, and
Speaker 1: the vehicle is trailed is followed by a cab driver
Speaker 1: who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of
Speaker 1: the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few
Speaker 1: blocks and disappears. Y z A right, that was the
Speaker 1: letters doesn't get the numbers as the vehicle turns out
Speaker 1: to have been rented by I think it was Enterprise. Um,
Speaker 1: they had three Idea, three identical vehicles on rental in
Speaker 1: Philadelphia that same day, and the vehicle what what What
Speaker 1: made this even more astonishing is they bought and put
Speaker 1: into service these three vehicles at the same day. So
Speaker 1: when they registered them, they got tags y Z A
Speaker 1: zero zero one, Why Z A zero zero two? Why
Speaker 1: is these zers are three? And the cab driver only
Speaker 1: got the letters that repeated, not the numbers. As it happens,
Speaker 1: Chester's driving one of those other vehicles that had been
Speaker 1: rented by his roommate and had been loaned given to
Speaker 1: him to use that weekend. He's driving towards the crime scene.
Speaker 1: He's stopped five minutes, not five minutes after the murder,
Speaker 1: driving towards the crime scene, in the identical vehicle with
Speaker 1: the same tag, and he meets the general description of
Speaker 1: what one of the perpetrators of like the young woman
Speaker 1: in the car with him DJ Jones meet met the
Speaker 1: general description of what of one of the women in
Speaker 1: the car, and they and they stopped him. And I
Speaker 1: mean I could imagine you're a young police officer and
Speaker 1: that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I I just
Speaker 1: solve this crime. I got h you know, you know
Speaker 1: you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you
Speaker 1: solve the crime. Well, at all the people involved in
Speaker 1: this case, were then convinced they solve the crime. Never
Speaker 1: Mind that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match
Speaker 1: any of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that
Speaker 1: there were only two people, not four people in the car.
Speaker 1: Never Mind there's no no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon,
Speaker 1: and he's driving back to towards the scene. Never Mind
Speaker 1: all that. Never Mind the fact that the young woman
Speaker 1: who was with the person who was killed can't identify Chester.
Speaker 1: Other than the vehicle. Nothing else lined up. Chester, Tell
Speaker 1: me about your that night and you were out and
Speaker 1: what you were doing and where you were going and
Speaker 1: whom you had with you. Talk about that a little
Speaker 1: bit for me, all right. Just returned home from Delaware.
Speaker 1: I went down to my parents house, and I spent
Speaker 1: most of the day in Delaware, and I was there
Speaker 1: to about maybe midnight. Um, I left there and I
Speaker 1: went home to where I lived on Broaden. Gerard came
Speaker 1: out the garage, went around front, and I passed Dedre
Speaker 1: her sister, and uh. I spoke to him, and she
Speaker 1: dedresked me where I was going and se up to
Speaker 1: my apartment. So and then I said, what do you
Speaker 1: want to do now? Because This was my first full
Speaker 1: day of vacation. I had never had a vacation in
Speaker 1: my my life on the job. So you know that
Speaker 1: Monday I was starting vacation for a week vacation in
Speaker 1: a paid vacation. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm excited, you know I'm not. I ain't ready to
Speaker 1: go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like,
Speaker 1: let's let's you want to go somewhere, but we didn't
Speaker 1: know where to go. So I was like, listen, I
Speaker 1: had a friend who lived down on fifty second in Greenway,
Speaker 1: so let's go down here check out him. So we
Speaker 1: get downstairs and I had a black Toyota sell like
Speaker 1: a g T at the time. And then we also
Speaker 1: had the Blazer, so I asked her which, of course
Speaker 1: she wanted to take. So we just let's take the
Speaker 1: Blazer and put the miles on that car rather than
Speaker 1: my car. So so we get out, we pull out,
Speaker 1: and we circle around and we go straight down the
Speaker 1: broad Street. As soon as we turned onto Lombard, there
Speaker 1: was I mean, there wasn't a car or person in sight. Man,
Speaker 1: I've never seen Philly like this. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: like like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right,
Speaker 1: but I kept going and uh, I turned the music
Speaker 1: down and we approached the first light on Lombard and uh,
Speaker 1: I stopped at that light and I saw a police
Speaker 1: car going north. So when the light turned green, I
Speaker 1: proceeded forward, and you know, I'm looking in the river
Speaker 1: view mirrors next to you know, the lights pop on.
Speaker 1: Sounds like damn, what do I do? So I pull
Speaker 1: over and like a half a block down, I pull
Speaker 1: over and next thing you know, they jumped out with
Speaker 1: guns drawn. I know that was very uncomfortable. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I asked, you, said, what we did? What we do?
Speaker 1: She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing
Speaker 1: you know, they're in front of the car with the
Speaker 1: guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands
Speaker 1: up and it took us out of the car and
Speaker 1: UH put the handcuffs on us, and uh, this is
Speaker 1: your nightmare began. Yes, tell me how you felt being
Speaker 1: arrested and then subsequently um being taken to the police
Speaker 1: station and what happened in that interrogation room with those
Speaker 1: police detectives. Well, that that night, after we were put
Speaker 1: out the car, I was placed in the back of
Speaker 1: a police car, and Uh, I saw d being placed
Speaker 1: in another car and I didn't I didn't know where
Speaker 1: we were going, but later found out we were being
Speaker 1: taken to the scene of the crime. So when we
Speaker 1: got there, Uh, there was like maybe four or five
Speaker 1: people underneath the street. Like I saw a police officers
Speaker 1: take these four or five people, whoever whatever it was,
Speaker 1: go to Deeeder's where she was, and they opened the
Speaker 1: back door and I saw him looking and then they
Speaker 1: came back and UH did the same thing to me,
Speaker 1: and I made sure I stepped my head out so
Speaker 1: they could see me. And you know, everybody was like
Speaker 1: I heard everybody said, that's not him, that's not him.
Speaker 1: And then Uh, I heard over the police radio saying
Speaker 1: the guy had died. Take him to take the suspect
Speaker 1: to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that,
Speaker 1: I said, I said, you know, my first thought is
Speaker 1: this is a murder. So you know, I was like, what,
Speaker 1: So I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got
Speaker 1: the wrong guy. I'm talking, you got the wrong guy.
Speaker 1: And when I get in the car, when the officers
Speaker 1: said that you're done now, he said, you're never gonna
Speaker 1: see the light of day and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting in his back seat like kind the
Speaker 1: world has happened. So we get to apan race and
Speaker 1: they take me upstairs and put me in this room
Speaker 1: that's freezing, and I see this green chair. This bolted
Speaker 1: to the floor. So they put me in his chair.
Speaker 1: They handcuffed me to this chair, and I'm just sitting
Speaker 1: there like freezing, like this cannot be happened. So my
Speaker 1: first interaction with the officer was Detective Jeff Pyry. He
Speaker 1: came in and I'm I'm a little excited, like to
Speaker 1: tell my story and try to get this all worked out.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking it's gonna work out. And he comes
Speaker 1: in and punches me right in the mouth. He said,
Speaker 1: you're like killing people in my city, right, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean. So I was just like looking at him.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say or do. So I'm
Speaker 1: just sitting there and uh, he walks out. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there just like stunned, like this is it's just bad.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying this is bad. I told him, I said,
Speaker 1: I worked for Brooks Army Car you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I said, I don't know what happened. I said, but
Speaker 1: I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out
Speaker 1: of the banks Garden State Park. Wait, were there picking
Speaker 1: up money? I mean, I'm I got three million dollars
Speaker 1: on the average in the back of my truck every day. Right,
Speaker 1: you are an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen
Speaker 1: of Philadelphia. Care. Yeah, So I said, if I wanted
Speaker 1: to rob somebody, I'm not gonna commerce on the street.
Speaker 1: I'm a pull this truck and just keep going. Looking back.
Speaker 1: Where I feel like I really messed up was first
Speaker 1: of all, speaking to him in the first place. But
Speaker 1: I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing
Speaker 1: to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by
Speaker 1: me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would
Speaker 1: just like bolster my my innocence and showed him I
Speaker 1: had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen.
Speaker 1: So I told him that I had a gun back
Speaker 1: in my apartment, my work gun, and uh, I told
Speaker 1: him where it was in my apartment. So I got
Speaker 1: my badge, my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my
Speaker 1: bottom drawer inside my bedroom. And uh, you know, later
Speaker 1: on down the road, come to find out that was
Speaker 1: all used against me. You did not mess up. We
Speaker 1: are taught in this country that the police are our
Speaker 1: friends from the time we are babies, and that we
Speaker 1: are supposed to go down to the police station, cooperate
Speaker 1: and do us right. And that's all you did. You
Speaker 1: did with any actual citizen would do. Now we know
Speaker 1: that you can't even and talk to them at all
Speaker 1: because they are not trustworthy. That is exactly what Chester's
Speaker 1: mindset was. Because we've talked about this, you were like,
Speaker 1: you thought they would figure it out, they would work
Speaker 1: This is gonna get worked out, They're going to get
Speaker 1: to the bottom. And this is a mistake. At some point,
Speaker 1: the police stopped becoming detectives, they stopped trying to discern
Speaker 1: the truth, and they start becoming advocates and they start
Speaker 1: to do. Everything they do is to build the case
Speaker 1: to make it stronger against who they've in their judgment
Speaker 1: where they've decided is guilty, as opposed to continuing to
Speaker 1: investigate and try to get to the actual truth. Tunnel vision. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that is one of the things I've learned
Speaker 1: in the system is that police the culture or the
Speaker 1: science of policing more the culture policing is we are
Speaker 1: trying to get to the truth to a point. But
Speaker 1: once we've decide, or we discern in our judgment who
Speaker 1: it is, everything at that point beca is how to
Speaker 1: build a case against that person. And they will ignore
Speaker 1: other evidence, they will suppress other evidence, they will hiw that,
Speaker 1: they will destroy it correct, and that's a problem. This
Speaker 1: episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg triaric through
Speaker 1: its pro bono program, Greenberg Triary leverages it's more than
Speaker 1: lawyers across forty two offices to serve the greater good
Speaker 1: of our communities and provide equal access to justice for all.
Speaker 1: In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg Triary attorneys have
Speaker 1: exonerated and Freedom and in Philadelphia represent numerous individuals previously
Speaker 1: sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings,
Speaker 1: and received the American part Association Exceptional Service Award for
Speaker 1: Death Penalty Representation for their work on five death penalty cases.
Speaker 1: GT is reimagining what big law can be you as
Speaker 1: a more just world only happens by design. So, while
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the players in the case,
Speaker 1: can you tell me about the police investigating the crime.
Speaker 1: Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who
Speaker 1: who took the key statement in this case, which was
Speaker 1: dear Ja Jones statement, Chester's friend who was in the car.
Speaker 1: So she signs a seven eight page single space statement
Speaker 1: extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean
Speaker 1: with detail that you would not be able to provide
Speaker 1: unless you were there minute to minute. So how does
Speaker 1: that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So
Speaker 1: over the course of the night, the police are interviewing
Speaker 1: numerous witnesses there there probably were eight, ten, twelve people
Speaker 1: who were interviewed who were witnesses, including Chester. So they
Speaker 1: are gathering lots and lots of details and lots and
Speaker 1: lots of information, and and throughout the night they're going
Speaker 1: in to see dear just saying you know, you're gonna
Speaker 1: tell us what happened. She's like, you know, she sticks
Speaker 1: to it. I'm not involved. I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you. And eventually, um, they they get
Speaker 1: her to relent um. They threatened to take her children away,
Speaker 1: they threatened to charge her with as a conspirator, that
Speaker 1: she's going to go to jail for life. The straw.
Speaker 1: That breaks I think that breaks the camel's back for her.
Speaker 1: She she's not getting a lawyer, is They walk in
Speaker 1: with Chester statement, which of course is completely exculpatory, and
Speaker 1: they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed. He's testified. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's going to jail. You're not gonna help us, We'll
Speaker 1: just charge you. He's already admitted it, which of course
Speaker 1: he didn't. So she signs the statement and that's how
Speaker 1: this David Baker gets a statement. So so he David
Speaker 1: Baker was instrumental in in another exoneration that happened roughly
Speaker 1: around the same time the case was a little was
Speaker 1: was was a little later Aunt Anthony Raight. Obviously, Jimmy,
Speaker 1: you know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a
Speaker 1: year before Chester, same detective, same emo um, virtually very
Speaker 1: very similar situation. But but Jimmy, it's important to note that,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not exclusive to David Baker. I
Speaker 1: think what you see in the exonerations that have occurred
Speaker 1: over the past five years and even before is a
Speaker 1: pattern of this sort of these sort of tactics that
Speaker 1: existed across the homicide unit. David Baker was by no
Speaker 1: means the worst of the detectives I think. I think
Speaker 1: David Baker was was more of a sort of ordinary
Speaker 1: regular detective who just followed the path that was before him.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just
Speaker 1: one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples,
Speaker 1: but what happens to Apple Core When you have one
Speaker 1: bad apple, it ruins the whole bunch. And what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and
Speaker 1: ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chester home
Speaker 1: and having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for
Speaker 1: something that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me
Speaker 1: about how the police built this case against Chester. But
Speaker 1: first let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being
Speaker 1: a pretty important to the state's case. Talk about that.
Speaker 1: Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he
Speaker 1: may have been homeless, he was inn He was sweeping
Speaker 1: up a parking lot at a gas station down the
Speaker 1: block from where the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins, you know,
Speaker 1: had a very tough life. He had substance abuse issues,
Speaker 1: he had mental health issues. He had many many arrests
Speaker 1: and condections for petty thefts and petty offenses. Um he
Speaker 1: had open cases at the time. He had a bench
Speaker 1: warrant at the time, and the police he threatened to
Speaker 1: be incarcerated in twelve different ways. And basically they had
Speaker 1: him to identify Chester, make an idea of Chester. But
Speaker 1: that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins recant his idea
Speaker 1: years later. He was the first one to recant. You know,
Speaker 1: we met him, I would say about eight or ten
Speaker 1: years later, and he could not have been more remorseful
Speaker 1: about doing what he did. It was it was astonishing
Speaker 1: how much he remembered. The lead detective, not David Baker
Speaker 1: was another detective is now deceased. Knew where Andre hung out.
Speaker 1: He hung around in a certain part of Center City.
Speaker 1: And Andre told me that for the entire year or
Speaker 1: so between the arrest and the trial, this detective would
Speaker 1: show up and give him give him money every week.
Speaker 1: All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable
Speaker 1: to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it,
Speaker 1: Roger King had it was in the file and it
Speaker 1: could have been used to impeach him and Roger King
Speaker 1: kept that he hit it, so the jury didn't get
Speaker 1: the benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the
Speaker 1: reasons why he would not have been a credible witness. So,
Speaker 1: Alan you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well. UM,
Speaker 1: So explain a little more about who Roger King was.
Speaker 1: His reputation in Philadelphia at this time. Roger King was
Speaker 1: a bit of a legend in Philadelphia. UM, a very
Speaker 1: sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came from Alabama.
Speaker 1: His dad was a minister. He clearly was raised with this. Uh,
Speaker 1: he learned the language of of preaching, let's put it
Speaker 1: that way. Yes, Yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical,
Speaker 1: and was very very effective and deployed that in in
Speaker 1: the courts in Philadelphia. Um. And and you know, in
Speaker 1: a very cynical way. The District Attorney's office would bring
Speaker 1: him out and assigned these cases where race was clearly
Speaker 1: you know, they would they would never they would never
Speaker 1: say it, but obviously they would deploy him in a
Speaker 1: in a very you know where race was a question.
Speaker 1: I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for
Speaker 1: the wrong of conviction. Listening to audience, Um, what Island
Speaker 1: has been speaking to are the dirty tactics of the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Police Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon.
Speaker 1: They did it in Chester case, they did in an
Speaker 1: Anthony Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case,
Speaker 1: my case Right. And they would threaten to witness, tell
Speaker 1: them they put him in jail, tell me they take
Speaker 1: away their kids, so on and so forth and then
Speaker 1: and in terms of Roger King, he would lie, he
Speaker 1: would cheat, he was still, he would pay witnesses. He
Speaker 1: was nothing more than an evil man. He was very
Speaker 1: He was a very a moral person at a very
Speaker 1: immoral prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to do justice, and
Speaker 1: for Roger King, doing justice was winning at all costs.
Speaker 1: There was there was no review, There was no reconsideration,
Speaker 1: There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In
Speaker 1: Chester's case, we found a hidden evidence that he hit
Speaker 1: that was hidden in his file, uh that he didn't
Speaker 1: turn over. And then and then after the trial when
Speaker 1: it was discovered, tried to say this was that he
Speaker 1: wasn't aware of it was accidental. It was in his
Speaker 1: file with time stamps that showed he had this before
Speaker 1: trial justice, speak to me about your charges. What what
Speaker 1: were you charged with? And then subsequently when they took
Speaker 1: you to the county prison. Because I want people to
Speaker 1: understand and know that is something to being prisoned, period,
Speaker 1: but it is a different animal when you are innocent.
Speaker 1: Speak to that if you will. I was smarless numb
Speaker 1: because I couldn't believe it. This was happening. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You watch TV all the time and
Speaker 1: you see all these different things on TV about these
Speaker 1: police shows, and I like, but you never see this.
Speaker 1: And I just one of the officers. I said, look,
Speaker 1: can I use the phone? So I haven't got on
Speaker 1: the phone, said when I called my mom, Well, when
Speaker 1: I called, you know, I was so relieved to hear
Speaker 1: a VOICEMANHI up the Phone's like it was only a
Speaker 1: half a ring. She had already put up the phone.
Speaker 1: And uh, even if I could say anything, she had
Speaker 1: already told me because it was all over the news.
Speaker 1: I said, Mom, I we're gonna need a lawyer, and
Speaker 1: she said, we're already working on it. And um, I said, uh,
Speaker 1: We're gonna need the best lawyer, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm crying back and forth. We both crying. My mom,
Speaker 1: we're crying. But at the same time I realized and
Speaker 1: I can't keep probably just you know, being here, I need.
Speaker 1: I knew that much, so she said, um, we're gonna
Speaker 1: get a lawyer. You know, We're gonna get you out
Speaker 1: of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't know
Speaker 1: the uh, you know, with murder charges carried, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was looking at life. I ain't none of that.
Speaker 1: I just knew it was it was. It was bad.
Speaker 1: And I end up going to d C. D C
Speaker 1: had no cells and they put me in this hallway
Speaker 1: and we were just lyned. It was just guys lined
Speaker 1: up in this hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I'm just looking around like this
Speaker 1: cannot be happening. I was there. I was on in
Speaker 1: d C for I think it was two days. And uh,
Speaker 1: they told me, because I had a homicide and it
Speaker 1: was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna be
Speaker 1: moved to a Homesburg prison and that is the roughest
Speaker 1: county prison and Philadelphi is the worst of the worst.
Speaker 1: And I didn't know that at the time, and I saponed.
Speaker 1: I walked on the block. I saw my face on
Speaker 1: the TV and I see like the whole block just
Speaker 1: got quiet, and everybody's looking back at me, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. So they take me and they put
Speaker 1: me in the cell, all in the back, and they
Speaker 1: give me a single cell by myself. And I was
Speaker 1: in itself maybe ten minutes and these old, three old
Speaker 1: guys came into the cell that you know, and open
Speaker 1: the gate. You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my
Speaker 1: mind that they about to attack me, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know that's what I'm thinking. And uh, it was
Speaker 1: three old Muslim guys and they came in there and
Speaker 1: they just basically told me and we saw your situation
Speaker 1: on TV just listening. He said, you're gonna be hard.
Speaker 1: And they gave me to run down of the block.
Speaker 1: They said, look, mind your business, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Respect one another, you know, don't look at nobody's cell.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's what I got. That that was
Speaker 1: my my lesson. They gave you the layer of land
Speaker 1: and you you were very fortunate to have those good
Speaker 1: Muslim brothers. Uh. I wish you knew their names so
Speaker 1: we could call their names out. So when you get
Speaker 1: to trial. You know, now know that you are going
Speaker 1: to trial, how does that make you feel? I was
Speaker 1: real hopeful, you know, and I said, there's no way
Speaker 1: that a jury can find me because the jury isn't
Speaker 1: corrupt like the police officers and the district attorney of
Speaker 1: these are people of my peers. So I heard a
Speaker 1: little bit more hope. Uh So, you know, preparing for trial,
Speaker 1: you know, watching the whole process unfold, I'm listening to
Speaker 1: Roger King. I'm watching all his movements and listening to
Speaker 1: his all his antics. You know, I said, man, this
Speaker 1: this is gonna be a battle right here. And I
Speaker 1: was just wondering, you know, if my attorney at that
Speaker 1: time was just on s time was up for it.
Speaker 1: I just didn't, you know, I know. They it came
Speaker 1: to me with a deal, you know, offer me like
Speaker 1: the five to ten. They were like, listen, um, just
Speaker 1: take the deal, you know, and uh give up a
Speaker 1: shooter and you know you've got three years left and
Speaker 1: you'll be home. Let me speak to that real quick though,
Speaker 1: because that's another tactic. Every single one of us who
Speaker 1: had a high profile case was offered to do, and
Speaker 1: every single one of us ex honorees in Philadelphia said no,
Speaker 1: and that's what you did. Chester. Once again, this speaks
Speaker 1: to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.
Speaker 1: So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered
Speaker 1: was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced.
Speaker 1: Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's
Speaker 1: no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are innocent people who would have taken the ideal,
Speaker 1: I can assure you, given given the fear of facing
Speaker 1: life in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery
Speaker 1: not to take that. I'll just say that. And for me,
Speaker 1: that's why Chester is in my phone as a champion.
Speaker 1: He's a brave guy, So that's no small feat. Prodrick
Speaker 1: King presents the state's case. And they have the victim's
Speaker 1: friend who was standing next to him when the robbery
Speaker 1: and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins, whom they were
Speaker 1: paying to lie for them, and they have your friend Dedrew,
Speaker 1: who they threatened to get this statement. Alan. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about the defense and what did Chester lawyer gerald Stein present.
Speaker 1: So I thought, um, Jerry did a good job, very
Speaker 1: good job with what he had. Um he crossed examined
Speaker 1: Andre Dawkins very effectively again for what he had. He
Speaker 1: didn't have all of his backgrounds. Chester were you when
Speaker 1: you were sitting there in that courtroom and you had
Speaker 1: all these lives being bandied about about you? How did
Speaker 1: you feel that your attorney had done for you in
Speaker 1: his representation of you? Looking back, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: and going back to that moment um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's all new to me, Jimmy. You know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: It's it's all new. So I'm watching it as it unfolds,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these are lies. Uh,
Speaker 1: And you know, at this point, I'm just like it
Speaker 1: was a fifty fifty like Alan said, you know, I
Speaker 1: think he did the best of what he could, you know,
Speaker 1: with what he had. But the thing for me and
Speaker 1: gerald Stein where we differ was that, Uh, I wanted
Speaker 1: to testify, and I was very adamant on testifying, but
Speaker 1: gerald Stein had told me that I wasn't going to testify,
Speaker 1: and he told me that he was going to relinquish
Speaker 1: himself from the case if I testified. So, uh, my
Speaker 1: mom and my grandmother you know, they were so trusting
Speaker 1: of you know, the attorney who we don't know. But
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I said, you know, I said, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna trust this, okay, And I didn't end up testifying.
Speaker 1: You would literally put in a no win situation because
Speaker 1: here it is, the decision was yours because it's your life,
Speaker 1: your life. He said that, Uh, Roger King will tell
Speaker 1: your part. He did say that. But my whole, my
Speaker 1: whole mindset was always from the very beginning, was I
Speaker 1: have nothing to hide, man, I have nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: and you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom
Speaker 1: to know the truth. I did it. I I totally
Speaker 1: get it. I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say, like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know,
Speaker 1: what you learned coming up is it's better not to testify.
Speaker 1: Once you exercise you're right to testify, in some large way,
Speaker 1: the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally
Speaker 1: perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer
Speaker 1: or you get into a bad little line of questioning
Speaker 1: and you may have a strong case, but you could
Speaker 1: lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest
Speaker 1: or you don't have a good answer for one thing.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people doing a lot of time
Speaker 1: because they they chose to exercise their right to testify.
Speaker 1: Like I just felt like all these negative things have
Speaker 1: been said about me that you know, and I haven't
Speaker 1: had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity,
Speaker 1: and I was I was willing to take the chance.
Speaker 1: I said, they gave me the def penalty of life whatever,
Speaker 1: I didn't care. I said, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: be at the sentiment and fight for myself. Even after
Speaker 1: we found guilty, I didn't never got to speak to it.
Speaker 1: After I got out of prison. This is twenty years later,
Speaker 1: So twenty years of silence. We all on wrong for conviction.
Speaker 1: Wanted to have you on here was to give you
Speaker 1: a voice that you hadn't had for so many years.
Speaker 1: And so we are immensely glad that you and island
Speaker 1: that showed up today. Tell me about when you were
Speaker 1: foundly when you would convict at trial Chester and uh
Speaker 1: was your family in the courtroom, how did everybody feel,
Speaker 1: and what happened that day when the jury came back
Speaker 1: with their verdict man um that was Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: that was That was I think the roughest day of
Speaker 1: my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future
Speaker 1: was right here in these people's hands. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: listening to Roger King make his his final argument and
Speaker 1: you know, my my attorney, and I was just like,
Speaker 1: you know, this can go either way. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: sitting here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same
Speaker 1: time listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his
Speaker 1: his his closing argument was just ridiculous. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, I'm just like, did I do it? You know,
Speaker 1: because it was just that compelling. I very well know
Speaker 1: that he came and pulled out all the stops and
Speaker 1: probably even told the jury and everyone in the courtroom
Speaker 1: that it was a society right to convict you that
Speaker 1: if they didn't, they were basically letting a criminal back
Speaker 1: on the streets, because that's what he has did. And
Speaker 1: every single closing the argument tried to get the public
Speaker 1: to take up arms for justice and convict an innocent person. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: after after the after conclusion of all that, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I looked at East juror and uh, the
Speaker 1: jury foreman he looked at me and he winked, you know,
Speaker 1: and give me like a you know, heads like a
Speaker 1: head nod, and I'm okay, maybe maybe they do believe,
Speaker 1: you know, and uh they went out and uh, I
Speaker 1: think it was maybe like a day and a half.
Speaker 1: When they came back in, no one looked at me.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't the same as when they went out.
Speaker 1: So my my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, this is not gonna be good.
Speaker 1: But I still was holding on this a little bit
Speaker 1: of hope. So the judge you know, read off his
Speaker 1: spill and then uh, you know, he asked for a
Speaker 1: verdict and they came back and they read the first
Speaker 1: degree and it was it was not guilty. So I
Speaker 1: was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe this is
Speaker 1: you know okay. I had then when they said the
Speaker 1: second degree and uh they said so m hm no,
Speaker 1: they said, um, they said guilty, and you know, I
Speaker 1: was just like, you know how how you know how?
Speaker 1: And then they read off the other charges murdering, you know,
Speaker 1: I just I didn't understand, and I turned around, I
Speaker 1: looked at my mother, and my mother's face was just
Speaker 1: like I can still see it so clearly. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was just like she was devastated. You know. My father,
Speaker 1: he was just sitting there and you know, but my
Speaker 1: mom's face as well. I'll never forget. So after that,
Speaker 1: I just did. I heard nothing else. I remember my
Speaker 1: knees buckled a little bit and I fell down a
Speaker 1: little bit, and and they asked me if I had
Speaker 1: anything to say, and I told you, Jesse, they got
Speaker 1: it wrong. I said, you know, this is this is wrong.
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I said, I've never lied, you
Speaker 1: know about my innocence, you know, and I read it
Speaker 1: all down and you know he had but he never
Speaker 1: even didn't hear nothing. I said, that was a wrap.
Speaker 1: I guarantee. I listen to audience. If you go and
Speaker 1: look at everybody trial transcripts who's been on wrong for conviction,
Speaker 1: you will see that when they sentenced us, that we
Speaker 1: stood before that judge and we said, once again, you're
Speaker 1: getting it wrong. We're innocent, we didn't do it. We
Speaker 1: don't be long here, so and so forth. Talk to
Speaker 1: me Chester about your After all the years go by,
Speaker 1: what was your lowest point being incarcerrated upstate, and then
Speaker 1: we'll get to what your highest point was. But I
Speaker 1: want the audience to know what was your lowest point
Speaker 1: in prison for something you didn't do. There were many
Speaker 1: low low points. I think the entire twenty years a
Speaker 1: low point. But I think my lowest point was I
Speaker 1: was losing my mom. Yeah, because she had been my
Speaker 1: strongest advocate, my my biggest supporter, um and she was
Speaker 1: like everything everything to me. And uh, when you lose
Speaker 1: a loved one, it's gonna be tough, really in prison
Speaker 1: or not. But being in prison, you know, it's I
Speaker 1: think it's even harder because, like I said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's the one person I would I would did anything
Speaker 1: for my life, you know, and did everything for me.
Speaker 1: And to go back into that block and not be
Speaker 1: he to cry and shed a tear and and show
Speaker 1: this weakness, you know, it was it was, it was.
Speaker 1: It was hard. You can't do that in prison. You
Speaker 1: couldn't even grieve. My mom had always told me, you know,
Speaker 1: I talked my mom every day. If there's a way
Speaker 1: to a will, there was a way to go on
Speaker 1: that phone. I got on the phone and I called
Speaker 1: her every day, and she always told me every day
Speaker 1: and end of the phone call, do not lose yourself.
Speaker 1: And she told me that every single phone call, do
Speaker 1: not lose yourself, and uh, you know, and then begin.
Speaker 1: I don't know what that meant, but as time went on,
Speaker 1: I said, Okay, should be the man and I raised
Speaker 1: you to be. And uh, you know, that's that's all
Speaker 1: I tried to do. Man. You know, I said, these
Speaker 1: people have smeared my name, They've taking my freedom. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to show them that they're wrong.
Speaker 1: You know. So I just tried to move by my
Speaker 1: actions and uh, carry myself in a way that would
Speaker 1: speak louder than my voice could speak. Did you take
Speaker 1: any classes? Did you did you immerse yourself in the law?
Speaker 1: Did you did you have any hobbies? Um to make
Speaker 1: the time go by while you were fighting to prove
Speaker 1: your innocence. You know, I I definitely immerged my myself
Speaker 1: into the law. I've read a lot of books, did
Speaker 1: a lot of working out, you know. Matter of fact,
Speaker 1: I worked out more and probably than that I did eating.
Speaker 1: I was I was actually the strongest guy in the prison.
Speaker 1: You know. I had broken so many different records, you know,
Speaker 1: just trying to take because I was that anger was
Speaker 1: being directed towards these weights. So I was benching like
Speaker 1: four fifty five and that's crazy, you know, but what
Speaker 1: do you bet you that? What do you bet you now?
Speaker 1: Maybe one thirty five? You know. Yeah, But it was
Speaker 1: all about just trying to stay you know, stay sharp
Speaker 1: the mind and physically. You know, I said, this is
Speaker 1: gonna be a long fight, so I wanted to, you know,
Speaker 1: keep my wits about me and my physical health. So
Speaker 1: I did everything I could to keep both sharp. So
Speaker 1: kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years,
Speaker 1: you know, because there were pills based on recantations by
Speaker 1: Deedre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those pills
Speaker 1: were toned. So I know that it had to be
Speaker 1: such a dehabilitating process for you and is were looking bleak,
Speaker 1: but you were holding onto hope. Tell me about when
Speaker 1: you knew that the ebbs of life were turning in
Speaker 1: your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: chester about when things start to turn in your favor.
Speaker 1: I'm saying maybe year maybe things I think things started.
Speaker 1: You know, it was more talk and I think my
Speaker 1: case was on the front page of the Daily News
Speaker 1: and all the staff had it and inmates had it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, maybe there's you know, maybe things are
Speaker 1: starting to move. And so this is right around the
Speaker 1: time when Larry Krasner gets elected. This was a huge
Speaker 1: day for people in Philadelphia because we had never had
Speaker 1: a district attorney speak loudly and clearly about innocent people
Speaker 1: being in prison and trying to right those wrongs. And
Speaker 1: one of the one of the most important things he
Speaker 1: did was he hired Patricia Cummings to have the Conviction
Speaker 1: Integrity UNI. She becomes his number one. So, Alan, tell
Speaker 1: me about when that process took place, in the petition
Speaker 1: that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins,
Speaker 1: and how all that came to be. I had our
Speaker 1: petition drawn up, she comes in. I think I walked
Speaker 1: over there and handed it to her the day after
Speaker 1: she started. So she called me about two weeks later
Speaker 1: and said, you know, I read your letter. We're very
Speaker 1: interested in this case. We're definitely gonna take this up,
Speaker 1: and I've ordered the homicide file for you to review,
Speaker 1: which that came in about a month later, and then
Speaker 1: we found that other evidence in the homicide file. I
Speaker 1: opened the file, and what was, without a question, like
Speaker 1: the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pulled a
Speaker 1: folder out. The first thing is pulled this folder out.
Speaker 1: It's a memo from a police officer who man's the
Speaker 1: tip line. The night of the crime, they received an
Speaker 1: anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of
Speaker 1: the getaway car. As I said in the beginning, there
Speaker 1: were three rented Chevy Blazers with the same time, roughly
Speaker 1: the same tag, but Denise and rent was the name
Speaker 1: on the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles.
Speaker 1: And you know, we believed she was involved. Um, we
Speaker 1: we spent a long time looking for her. Not that
Speaker 1: it was not that easy to find her, believe it
Speaker 1: or not. But when we did, she was very welcoming
Speaker 1: and we spoke to her many numerous occasions. I mean,
Speaker 1: she never admitted involvement in the case, but she said
Speaker 1: a lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually,
Speaker 1: in one of the interviews, she said that was out
Speaker 1: of thirty eight we had to get rid of because
Speaker 1: there was a quote unquote body on it, and of
Speaker 1: course a thirty eight was used in this case. This
Speaker 1: that was the gun used in this case, and she
Speaker 1: says this to us, and that memo with the information
Speaker 1: the anonymous tip identifying her gets buried in the homicide
Speaker 1: file never turned over. So all, bring me to the
Speaker 1: day when you know that Chester is going to be released.
Speaker 1: Tell me how you felt, Tell me how his family felt,
Speaker 1: Tell me where you're able to reach out to Chester
Speaker 1: and let him know that she was coming. Again, we
Speaker 1: go to this hearing. The judge ordered this hearing. We
Speaker 1: didn't know she was going to release Chester that day.
Speaker 1: We just thought she had some questions and she asked
Speaker 1: us a handful of questions as well, I want to
Speaker 1: release him today. Can you give me an order? And
Speaker 1: Patricia comes to you know, the d A and I
Speaker 1: look at each other like yeah. We sit down and
Speaker 1: we write a hand rate in order, you know, give
Speaker 1: it to the judge and she signs it and Facts
Speaker 1: faxes it up to the prison. And then it was
Speaker 1: like we all jump in our cars. I called Chester's family.
Speaker 1: We all jump in our cars and we're like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like the amazing race we're trying to get who's
Speaker 1: gonna get to the prison first. You know, that's an
Speaker 1: incredible story. That's an incredible moment for you as attorney,
Speaker 1: and I just want to say thank you for being
Speaker 1: a vessel that helped reunite Chester with his family. What
Speaker 1: you did was no, no short of being heroic. Um Chester,
Speaker 1: how did you feel about that? When Alan is telling you,
Speaker 1: even before you got released, how did you feel about that?
Speaker 1: It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that
Speaker 1: you know, my shoulders straighten up a little bit, because
Speaker 1: you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. I'm I'm, I'm I'm twenty eight years in
Speaker 1: and you know, I hear to talk and I hear
Speaker 1: all the rumblings, but at the same time, it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm still here. You know when that that that morning
Speaker 1: when they called me back to the block and uh,
Speaker 1: the counselor called me upstairs. She says, um, I need
Speaker 1: you to pack your stuff. You're gonna be going home
Speaker 1: tomorrow morning. You know, I thought she's playing. It's like
Speaker 1: get over there, and she says, uh, uh the judge
Speaker 1: is called and uh, they're releasing you today. So I'm
Speaker 1: just like how, you know how and she's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but you're going home. You know, it's just
Speaker 1: like you know, you don't, you don't. You know, your hope,
Speaker 1: but you don't, you know, you don't believe. It's just
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it was just everything
Speaker 1: just so surreal, and you know, and before I can
Speaker 1: get back to my cell, which is on the other
Speaker 1: side of the block, the whole jail had already already
Speaker 1: found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants, you know,
Speaker 1: everybody coming to myself congratulate me. And I didn't have it.
Speaker 1: I didn't have an opportunity to really process it, you know.
Speaker 1: So now on the Capital of Security, he's telling me
Speaker 1: you have to get outside, you have to get out
Speaker 1: the prison because now you're considered a civilian. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've just been here twenty five years. Now you tell
Speaker 1: me I gotta go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: So they gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to
Speaker 1: leave a place where I've just spent the majority of
Speaker 1: my life. I just couldn't believe it. And I get
Speaker 1: outside and my sister and my father and my uncle
Speaker 1: right there in the lobby, and it was just like,
Speaker 1: you know, and I still couldn't believe it. You know,
Speaker 1: I said, man, you know. And uh, when we finally
Speaker 1: got across the bridge and I got out the car
Speaker 1: and I looked back at the prison and that's when
Speaker 1: it hit me, like, you know, finally you know, like
Speaker 1: you know, and what an't so much about being and free,
Speaker 1: just about I mean that's the main thing. But I'm
Speaker 1: finally hearing my voice and believing me. You know, right,
Speaker 1: your truth came out. I can tell you firsthand. When
Speaker 1: you are in prison, all you want is for someone
Speaker 1: anyone to see who you truly are as a human being,
Speaker 1: because you don't belong it. Chester. Tell me about your
Speaker 1: life now, and I hear you have an incredible friends
Speaker 1: that piles around which you tell me about that a
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, I was. I was. I was very fortunate,
Speaker 1: you know. Um. And prior to being released, I worked
Speaker 1: in the Activities Department, a retreat and uh, they had
Speaker 1: a dog program where they were we would get dog
Speaker 1: from Journe County s p c. A. And they would
Speaker 1: bring dogs in and makes the train and we had
Speaker 1: a six month old puppy. It was a puggle, very tiny,
Speaker 1: very tiny. I said, I watched this dog for for
Speaker 1: for for months, you know what, I mean time she
Speaker 1: was there and uh, you know, once things started piglingting
Speaker 1: up my case. The activities managers Ty Cobeca, he was
Speaker 1: actually in charge of the dog program anyway, He says, uh,
Speaker 1: if things ever work out for you, I want you
Speaker 1: to take one of these dogs. I think you should
Speaker 1: take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttoned at the time.
Speaker 1: So I was like, no, I said, I'm a kid.
Speaker 1: If I get out, the last thing I want to
Speaker 1: do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do.
Speaker 1: So you know, uh that that day came and I
Speaker 1: found I was leaving, I was like, he said, we
Speaker 1: need you needn't take this dog. I was like all right,
Speaker 1: And I came, brought her home and we renamed her Journey,
Speaker 1: and uh she's upstairs right now, and I and I
Speaker 1: gotta and I gotta say this, man, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: God does things, you know, just it's just it's just
Speaker 1: like the way things happen. Man, It's just you know,
Speaker 1: this dog really, like I think saved my life because
Speaker 1: it's it's been rough out here, you know for me,
Speaker 1: and you know, so you know, just having her and
Speaker 1: norm when we came through and we'll be you know
Speaker 1: where we're at now. It's just been uh, you know,
Speaker 1: saving grace for me. And as far as where I'm
Speaker 1: at now, you know, you know many people know about
Speaker 1: the settlement. You know that was that that occurred. You know,
Speaker 1: that brought on a whole another layer to my life,
Speaker 1: a lot of difficulties. But that because like they say,
Speaker 1: more money brings more problems, um and uh And that
Speaker 1: is the truest statement I think I've ever heard in
Speaker 1: my life. I'm not complaining about my life because you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, where we came through and we had
Speaker 1: to overcome to where we are now. You know, I
Speaker 1: just take it all in straight and I'm grateful for
Speaker 1: it all. But at the same time, man, it's it
Speaker 1: ain't as easy as people may think, you know, going
Speaker 1: through all that, and then they think because they give
Speaker 1: you the money that life is good now, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, it's just it's it's a lot
Speaker 1: of process. You and I, you know, uh talk about
Speaker 1: these things often, and I know you have a great
Speaker 1: deal of wisdom. I want to know what you think
Speaker 1: I will wrong. For conviction audience can do to help
Speaker 1: people like us and stop this from happening to other people. Um.
Speaker 1: And the first thing that comes to mind is uh
Speaker 1: getting out to vote. You know these politicians that are
Speaker 1: you know, that have been there and these uh forever
Speaker 1: with these old school uh mentality. Uh, you know, people
Speaker 1: who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand,
Speaker 1: you know, I have a hard time understanding how you
Speaker 1: know people are so hard on l Crescent. No one's perfect.
Speaker 1: We know that already, you know, but you know, just
Speaker 1: seeing a few of the things that he's done in
Speaker 1: terms of trying to write the wrongs. You know, you
Speaker 1: know Innocence Project. You know, it's one thing, you know,
Speaker 1: to get involved, Innocence Project. But there's only so much
Speaker 1: we can do there. And Alan, do you have anything
Speaker 1: to add I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations,
Speaker 1: I got news stories, we found the other witness, I
Speaker 1: found everything. Did you know what made a difference Larry
Speaker 1: Krausner got elected. It was willing to look at the
Speaker 1: evidence in a different way. Politics is what made the difference. Jimmy,
Speaker 1: you and Chester are free because of politics and the
Speaker 1: old way of looking at things, doing things. The old
Speaker 1: way of running a d a's ars prosecutor's office was
Speaker 1: not going to ever change any of this. The only
Speaker 1: way things are going to change is to is the
Speaker 1: is the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period. So Chester,
Speaker 1: we have something on wrongful conviction called closing argument. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to hand this mic off to you, and
Speaker 1: I want you to speak from your heart and tell
Speaker 1: the wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what you think. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, um, and if I can say anything, I
Speaker 1: was just like, it's just about bringing awareness to uh,
Speaker 1: wrong for convictions. You know, prior to you know me
Speaker 1: enter in prison and and and and seeing it firsthand,
Speaker 1: you know, I never would have thought these things are possible.
Speaker 1: You know you look on TV and see people being arrested,
Speaker 1: and you know they paint this picture of guilt before innocence,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I just want people to be
Speaker 1: aware that before we jump to conclusions and and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just to to listen and to the facts
Speaker 1: and and and learn more about these types of things. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, in regards to the law itself, these people
Speaker 1: have committed crimes, you know, these people that allow these
Speaker 1: things to happen. Holding people accountable is to me, it
Speaker 1: is more than anything. And uh, these police officers that
Speaker 1: still my life, your life. So just just make I say,
Speaker 1: bringing awareness to these types of things. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today.
Speaker 1: I thank you Jimmy, you know, you know I got
Speaker 1: a lot of love for you. You know, whatever I
Speaker 1: can do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be
Speaker 1: there for you as well, you know. So I just
Speaker 1: thank you all for having us. Thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Wrong for Conviction. I'm your guest host, Jimmy Dinnis.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flum and
Speaker 1: Kevin Worters. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie
Speaker 1: Paul and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyde Borne.
Speaker 1: Our edit her is Roxandra Guidi. The music in this
Speaker 1: production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can find me on Facebook is
Speaker 1: Jimmy Dennis on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also
Speaker 1: an R and B sanger songwriter and you can find
Speaker 1: all my music on iTunes or wherever you get your music.
Speaker 1: Wrong for Conviction is a production of Lava for Good
Speaker 1: podcast in association with Signal Company Number one. Next week,
Speaker 1: on the guest hosted episodes are Wrong for Conviction, Pulitzer
Speaker 1: Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois about
Speaker 1: being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime he
Speaker 1: didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for Good's
Speaker 1: newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story of
Speaker 1: Leo Schofield, a man wrongly convicted for the murder of
Speaker 1: his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated at
Speaker 1: Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dubas was
Speaker 1: held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview,
Speaker 1: Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work
Speaker 1: and junk science that leaded Robert on death route. Listen
Speaker 1: next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed