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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flam, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories, and sadly,

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Speaker 1: with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left

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Speaker 1: with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.

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Speaker 1: So I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases,

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Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could

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Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This

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Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.

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Speaker 2: On a hot August night in nineteen ninety one, University

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Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania grad student t jung Hoe was walking with

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Speaker 2: his friend at Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. A white Chevy

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Speaker 2: blazer with four people inside pulled up beside them. Two

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Speaker 2: of them got out of the car, robbed t jung

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Speaker 2: Hoe and shot him. He died of his injuries. A

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Speaker 2: few hours later. A cab driver witnessed the shooting. He

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Speaker 2: told police what he saw and what he remembered of

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Speaker 2: the license place the first three letters YCA. Just a

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Speaker 2: few minutes later, the police pulled over a white Chevy

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Speaker 2: blazer with YCA on the plate. They thought they caught

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Speaker 2: the criminal. He was a twenty one year old Chester

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Speaker 2: home in the third he didn't match the description of

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Speaker 2: the shooter, and there were only two people in his car,

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Speaker 2: not four. Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from

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Speaker 2: the robbery. Nevertheless, he was arrested and taken to the station.

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Speaker 2: In May nineteen ninety three, he was sentenced to life

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Speaker 2: in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jimmy A.

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Speaker 3: Dennis.

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Speaker 2: I spent twenty five point five years on death row

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Speaker 2: for a crime I didn't commit. I was a guest

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Speaker 2: on wrong for conviction and talked to Jason about my

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Speaker 2: own experience in the criminal justice system years ago. But

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Speaker 2: today I'll be your guest host. I'm here with Chester

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Speaker 2: Holme in the third He and I know each other well.

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Speaker 2: Our stories overlap and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the.

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Speaker 3: Philadelphia criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: Chester, as Jason always says, I'm happy you're here, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not happy that you're here.

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Speaker 3: Could you introduce yourself.

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Speaker 4: Chester Holman. I've served twenty eight years on a wrong

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Speaker 4: for conviction. I've now been home since twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: And today we're also joined by your attorney, Alan Tarboro.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Alan.

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Speaker 3: Could you introduce yourself as well.

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Speaker 6: Hi Jimmy. My name is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney.

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Speaker 6: I've been practicing law since nineteen eighty nine, most of

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Speaker 6: which has been criminal defense and civil rights. And I

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Speaker 6: met Chester and two thousand and four, two thousand and five,

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Speaker 6: I had the distinction and honor of representing him for

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Speaker 6: fifteen years before we actually won his exoneration. Every time

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Speaker 6: I see him and talk to him outside of the prison,

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Speaker 6: it just brightens my heart.

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Speaker 3: Remarkable Chester.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you, my friend, what was your

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Speaker 2: life like prior to being stolen away for a crime

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Speaker 2: you didn't commit.

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Speaker 4: I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. That's where I grew up,

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Speaker 4: and then we at some point we moved to Delaware, Womington, Delaware.

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Speaker 4: You know it was I said, it was a regular life.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 4: My father worked very hard. You know, my mother was

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Speaker 4: on dialysis. You know, me and my sister, you know,

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Speaker 4: we were involved and you know from the time I

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Speaker 4: can remember it with sports and some type of activity.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 4: I went to community college and I started off at

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Speaker 4: a Wimington community college and I moved to Fildelphia Community

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Speaker 4: College and I was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't

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Speaker 4: know which field I wanted to go to. I know,

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Speaker 4: if it was law enforcement or you know, some type

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Speaker 4: of legal field, but that's what I was doing. Then

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Speaker 4: I got a job at a as an armored card guard.

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Speaker 4: I was driving for Brooks Armored Car. I went moved

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Speaker 4: to Philadelphia, down Northffilly to BroadOn Gerard and I was

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Speaker 4: there and uh, you know, just living my life. I

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Speaker 4: thought the world was my oyster, and I think I

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Speaker 4: had all these plans of how things were going to

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Speaker 4: eventually end up being and uh, just one that one

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Speaker 4: tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end.

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Speaker 4: And spent the next twenty eight years fighting to get back.

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Speaker 6: When you practice criminal defense, one of the old adages

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Speaker 6: is one of things you hear is that there's no

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Speaker 6: such thing as coincidences, right. But the other rule is

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Speaker 6: there's always an exception to that case, and Chester Holman's

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Speaker 6: case is the exception. Chester was the victim of, you know,

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Speaker 6: many things, but most substantially he was a victim of

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Speaker 6: a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence. And that is

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Speaker 6: in this case, which was a terrible case, a terrible

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Speaker 6: brutal killing of a student, the perpetrators drove up to

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Speaker 6: this young man at one am in Center City, was

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Speaker 6: walking home from a It was walking home from the

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Speaker 6: University of Pennsylvania campus, and there were four people in

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Speaker 6: a white Chevy Blazer. Two men get out, two women

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Speaker 6: remained in the cars, sort of the getaway driver. The

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Speaker 6: two men run up to the victim, push him to

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Speaker 6: the ground, shoot him, and rob him of his wallet.

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Speaker 6: There was a woman with him. His friend standing directly

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Speaker 6: next to him witnessed the entire thing from three feet

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Speaker 6: two three feet away. They get into a white Chevy

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Speaker 6: Blazer and drive away. It's one am. It's hot August night.

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Speaker 6: Actually a lot of people out in Center City and

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Speaker 6: the vehicle is trailed. Is followed by a cab driver

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Speaker 6: who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of

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Speaker 6: the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few

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Speaker 6: blocks and disappears. Yza right, that was the letters doesn't

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Speaker 6: get the numbers as the vehicle turns out to have

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Speaker 6: been rented by I think it was Enterprise. They had

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Speaker 6: three three identical vehicles on rental in Philadelphia that same

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Speaker 6: day and the vehicle. What made this even more astonishing

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Speaker 6: is they bought and put into service these three vehicles

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Speaker 6: at the same day, so when they registered them, they

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Speaker 6: got tags YZA zero zero one, Why ZA is year

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Speaker 6: zero two? Why is is YEZER three? And the cab

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Speaker 6: driver only got the letters that repeated, not the numbers.

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Speaker 6: As it happens, Chester's driving one of those other vehicles

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Speaker 6: that had been rented by his roommate and had been

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Speaker 6: loan given to him to use that weekend. He's driving

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Speaker 6: toward the crime scene. He's stopped five minutes, not five

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Speaker 6: minutes after the murder. Driving toward the crime scene in

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Speaker 6: the idea, I dentical vehicle with the same tag, and

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Speaker 6: he meets the general description of what one of the

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Speaker 6: perpetrators look like. The young woman in the car with

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Speaker 6: him DJ Jones met the general description of of one

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Speaker 6: of the women in the car, and they stop him.

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Speaker 6: And I mean, I could imagine you're a young police

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Speaker 6: officer and that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I

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Speaker 6: just solved this crime. I got you know, you know,

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Speaker 6: you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you

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Speaker 6: solved the crime. Well, all the people involved in this

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Speaker 6: case were then convinced they solved the crime. Never mind

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Speaker 6: that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match any

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Speaker 6: of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that there

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Speaker 6: were only two people, not four people in the car.

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Speaker 6: Never Mind there's no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon,

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Speaker 6: and he's driving back towards the scene. Never Mind all that.

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Speaker 6: Never Mind the fact that the young woman who was

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Speaker 6: with the person who was killed can't identify Chester. Other

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Speaker 6: than the vehicle, nothing else lined up.

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Speaker 2: Chester. Tell me about your note that night and you

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Speaker 2: were out, and what you were doing, and where you

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Speaker 2: were going, and whom you had with you. Talk about

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Speaker 2: that a little bit for me.

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Speaker 4: I had to just returned home from Delaware. I went

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Speaker 4: down to my parents' house, and I spent most of

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Speaker 4: the day in Delaware, and I was there to about

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Speaker 4: maybe midnight. I left there and I went home to

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Speaker 4: where I lived on Broad and Gerard came out the garage,

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Speaker 4: went around front, and I passed Deirdre, her sister, and

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Speaker 4: I spoke to him, and Sheddre asked me where I

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Speaker 4: was going except to my apartment. So and then I said,

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Speaker 4: what do you want to do now? Because this was

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Speaker 4: my first full day of vacation. I had never had

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Speaker 4: a vacation in my life.

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Speaker 7: On a job.

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Speaker 4: So you know that Monday, I was starting vacation for

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Speaker 4: a week vacation and I paid vacation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm excited. You know, I ain't ready to

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Speaker 4: go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like, litten,

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Speaker 4: let's you want to go somewhere, But we didn't know

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Speaker 4: where to go. So I was like, listen, I had

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Speaker 4: a friend who lived down on a fifty second in Greenway.

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Speaker 4: I sai, let's go down here check out him. So

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Speaker 4: we get downstairs, and I had a black Toyo to

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Speaker 4: Sellica GT at the time, and then we also had

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Speaker 4: the Blazer. So I asked her which car she wanted

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Speaker 4: to take, So let's take the Blazer to put the

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Speaker 4: miles on that car rather than my car. So so

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Speaker 4: we get out, we pull out, and we circle around

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Speaker 4: and we go straight down to broad Street. As soon

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Speaker 4: as we turned on to Lombard, there was I mean,

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Speaker 4: there wasn't a car or person in sight. I mean

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Speaker 4: I've never seen Philly like this. I mean it was

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Speaker 4: like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right,

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Speaker 4: but I kept going and I turned the music down

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Speaker 4: and we approached the first light on Lombard and I

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Speaker 4: stopped at that light and I saw a police car

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Speaker 4: going north. So when the light turned green, I proceeded

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Speaker 4: forward and you know, I'm looking in the rear view mirrors.

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Speaker 4: Next thing, you know, the lights pop on.

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Speaker 7: So I was like, damn, what did I do?

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Speaker 4: So I pull over, like a half a block down.

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Speaker 4: I pull over and next thing you know, they jump

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Speaker 4: out with guns drawn.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I know.

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Speaker 3: That was very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so I asked you, I said, what we do?

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Speaker 7: What we do?

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Speaker 4: She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing

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Speaker 4: you know, they're in front of the car with the

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Speaker 4: guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands

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Speaker 4: up and they took us out the car and uh

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Speaker 4: put the handcuffs on us, and uh.

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Speaker 3: You night mare began.

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Speaker 7: Yes, tell me how.

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Speaker 2: You felt being arrested and then subsequently being taken to

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Speaker 2: the police station and what happened in that interrogation room

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Speaker 2: with those police detectives.

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Speaker 4: Well, that that night, after we were put out the car,

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Speaker 4: I was placed in the back of a police car

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Speaker 4: and I saw Djre being placed in another car and

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Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't know where we were going. But

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Speaker 4: later found out we were being taken to the scene

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Speaker 4: of the crime. So when we got there, uh, there

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Speaker 4: was like maybe four or five people underneath the street.

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Speaker 4: Like I saw police officers take these four or five people,

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Speaker 4: whoever whatever it was, go to Deidrich where she was,

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Speaker 4: and they opened the back door and I saw him looking,

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Speaker 4: and then they came back and did the same thing

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Speaker 4: to me, and I made sure I stuck my head

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Speaker 4: out so they could see me, and you know, everybody

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Speaker 4: was like I heard everybody say, that's not him, that's

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Speaker 4: not him. And then uh, I heard over the police

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Speaker 4: radio saying the guy had died. Take take the suspect

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Speaker 4: to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that,

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Speaker 4: I said, I said, you know, my first thought is

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Speaker 4: this is a murder. So you know, I was like,

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Speaker 4: what so I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got.

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Speaker 7: The wrong guy. I'm tall, you got the wrong guy.

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Speaker 7: And when I get in.

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Speaker 4: The car, when an officer said he said you're done now,

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Speaker 4: he said You're never going to see the light of day.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, you know, I'm just sitting in

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Speaker 4: his back seets like, hon now, what does this happened?

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Speaker 4: So we get to aph and Race and they take

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Speaker 4: me upstairs and put me in this room that's freezing,

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Speaker 4: and I see this green chair. This bolted to the floor,

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Speaker 4: so they put me in this chair. They handcuffed me

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Speaker 4: to this chair, and I'm just sitting there like freezing,

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Speaker 4: like this cannot be happening. So my first interaction with

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Speaker 4: the officer was Detective Jeff Pyrie. He came in and

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Speaker 4: I'm a little excited, like to tell my story and

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Speaker 4: try to get this all worked out. So I'm thinking

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Speaker 4: it's gonna work out, and he comes in and punches

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Speaker 4: me right in the mouth. He said, you like killing

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Speaker 4: people in my city, right, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: So I was just like looking at him. I ain't

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Speaker 4: know what to say or do. So I'm just sitting

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Speaker 4: there and he walks out. I'm sitting there just like stunned,

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Speaker 4: like this is this is bad. I'm just in this

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Speaker 4: is bad. I told him. I said, I worked for

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Speaker 4: Brooks Armor Car.

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Speaker 7: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: I said, I don't know what happened, I said, but

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Speaker 4: I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out

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Speaker 4: of the banks Garden Street Park, were picking up money.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm I got three million dollars on the

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Speaker 4: average in the back of my truck every day.

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Speaker 2: Right, You're an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen

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Speaker 2: of Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: Period.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I said, if I wanted to rob somebody, I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna ribe a commerce on the street. I'm gonna pull

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Speaker 4: this truck and just keep going.

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Speaker 7: Looking back.

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Speaker 4: Where I feel like I really messed up was first

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Speaker 4: of all speaking to him in the first place. But

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Speaker 4: I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing

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Speaker 4: to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by

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Speaker 4: me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would

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Speaker 4: just like bolster my innocence. And he showed him that

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Speaker 4: I had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen.

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Speaker 4: So I told him that I had a gun back

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Speaker 4: in my apartment, my work gun, and I told him

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Speaker 4: where it was in my apartment. So I got my badge,

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Speaker 4: my my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my bottom

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Speaker 4: drawer inside my bedroom. And you know, later on down

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Speaker 4: the road, come to find out it was all used

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Speaker 4: against me.

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Speaker 2: You did not mess up. We are taught in this

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Speaker 2: country that the police are our friends from the town.

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Speaker 2: We are babies, and that we are supposed to go

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Speaker 2: down to the police station, cooperate and do us right,

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Speaker 2: And that's all you did. You did what any actual

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Speaker 2: citizen would do. Now we know that you can't even

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Speaker 2: talked to them at all because they are not trustworthy.

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Speaker 6: That is exactly what Chester's mindset was. Because we've talked

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Speaker 6: about this, you were like, you thought they would figure

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Speaker 6: it out, they would work This is gonna get worked out.

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Speaker 6: They're going to get to the bottom of this. There's

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Speaker 6: a mistake. At some point, the police stop becoming detectives,

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Speaker 6: they stop trying to discern the truth, and they start

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Speaker 6: becoming advocates, and they start to do. Everything they do

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Speaker 6: is to build the case, to make it stronger against

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Speaker 6: who they've in their judgment or they've decided is guilty,

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Speaker 6: as opposed to continuing to investigate and try to get

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Speaker 6: to the actual truth tunnel vision. Yeah, and that is

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Speaker 6: one of the things I have learned in the system,

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Speaker 6: is that police the culture or the science of policing.

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Speaker 6: It's more of the culture of policing is we are

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Speaker 6: trying to get to the truth to a point. But

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Speaker 6: once we've decide or we discern in our judgment who

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Speaker 6: it is, everything that that point, because how to build

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Speaker 6: the case against that person. And they will ignore other evidence,

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Speaker 6: they will suppress other evidence.

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Speaker 8: They will hid it, they will destroy it correct, and

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Speaker 8: that's a problem.

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Speaker 9: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Tryaig

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Speaker 9: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Traig leverages its more

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Speaker 9: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to

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Speaker 9: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal

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Speaker 9: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,

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Speaker 9: Greenberg Triwerg attorneys have exonerated and freeomand in Philadelphia represent

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Speaker 9: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as

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Speaker 9: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's

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Speaker 9: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation

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Speaker 9: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is

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Speaker 9: reimagining what big law can be as a more just

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Speaker 9: world only happens by design.

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Speaker 2: So, while let's talk about some of the players in

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Speaker 2: the case, can you tell me about the police investigating

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Speaker 2: the crime.

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Speaker 6: Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who

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Speaker 6: took the key statement in this case, which was dear

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Speaker 6: jar Jones's statement, Chester's friend who was in the car.

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Speaker 6: So she signs a seven eight page, single space statement

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Speaker 6: extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean

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Speaker 6: with detail that you would not be able to provide

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Speaker 6: unless you were there minute to minute. So how does

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Speaker 6: that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So

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Speaker 6: over the course of the night, the police are interviewing

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Speaker 6: numerous witnesses. There probably were eight, ten, twelve people who

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Speaker 6: were interviewed who are witnesses, including Chester. So they are

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Speaker 6: gathering lots and lots of details and lots and lots

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Speaker 6: of information. And throughout the night they're going into see

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Speaker 6: Deer just saying you know, you're gonna tell us what happened.

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Speaker 6: She's like, you know, she sticks to it. I'm not involved.

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Speaker 6: I don't know what happened. I couldn't tell you. And

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Speaker 6: eventually they they get her to relent. They threaten to

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Speaker 6: take her children away, they threatened to charge her with

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Speaker 6: as a conspirator, that she's going to go to jail

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Speaker 6: for life. The straw that breaks, I think that breaks

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Speaker 6: the camel's back for her. She's not getting a lawyer,

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Speaker 6: is they walk in with Chester's statement, which of course

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Speaker 6: is completely exculpatory, and they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed.

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Speaker 6: He's testified. I mean, he's going to jail. You're not

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Speaker 6: going to help us, We'll just charge you. He's already

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Speaker 6: admitted it, which of course he didn't. So she signs

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Speaker 6: the statement and that's how this David Baker gets the statement.

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Speaker 6: So he David Baker was instrumental in another exoneration that

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Speaker 6: happened roughly around the same time the case was a

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Speaker 6: little was a little later Anthony Wright. Obviously, Jimmy, you

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Speaker 6: know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a year

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Speaker 6: before Chester, same detective samem virtually very very similar situation.

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Speaker 6: But Jimmy, it's important to note that, I mean, this

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Speaker 6: is not exclusive to David Baker. I think what you

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Speaker 6: see in the exonerations that have occurred over the past

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Speaker 6: five years and even before is a pattern of this

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Speaker 6: sort of these sort of tactics that existed across the

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Speaker 6: homicide unit. David Baker was by no means the worst

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Speaker 6: of the detectives. I think. I think David Baker was

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Speaker 6: more of a sort of ordinary regular detective who just

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Speaker 6: followed the path that was before him.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just

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Speaker 2: one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples,

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Speaker 2: but what happens to an apple core when you have

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Speaker 2: one bad apple ruins the whole bunch. And what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and

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Speaker 2: ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chesterholm and

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Speaker 2: having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for something

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Speaker 2: that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me about

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Speaker 2: how the police built this case against Chester. But first

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Speaker 2: let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being a

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Speaker 2: pretty important to the state's case.

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Speaker 3: Talk about that.

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Speaker 6: Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he

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Speaker 6: may have been homeless. He was sweeping up a parking

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Speaker 6: lot at a gas station down the block from where

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Speaker 6: the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins had a very tough life.

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Speaker 6: He had substance abuse issues, he had mental health issues.

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Speaker 6: He had many many arrests and conditions for petty thefts

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Speaker 6: and petty offenses. He had open cases at the time,

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Speaker 6: He had a bench warrant at the time, and the

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Speaker 6: police He's threatened to be incarcerated twelve different ways, and

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Speaker 6: basically they led him to identify Chester, make an idea

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Speaker 6: of Chester. But that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins

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Speaker 6: recant his id years later. He was the first one

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Speaker 6: to recant. You know, we met him, I would say

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Speaker 6: about eight or ten years later, and he could not

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Speaker 6: have been more remorseful about doing what he did. It

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Speaker 6: was astonishing how much you remembered the lead detective, not

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Speaker 6: David Baker's. Another detective was now deceased. Knew where Andre

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Speaker 6: hung out. He's hung around in a certain part of

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Speaker 6: Center City, and Andre told me that for the entire

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Speaker 6: year or so between the arrest and the trial, this

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Speaker 6: detective would show up and give give him money every week.

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Speaker 6: All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable

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Speaker 6: to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it.

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Speaker 6: Roger King had it in the file and it could

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Speaker 6: have been used to impeach him, and Roger Kin kept

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Speaker 6: that he hit it, so the jury didn't get the

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Speaker 6: benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the reasons

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Speaker 6: why he would not have been a credible witness.

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Speaker 2: So Alan, you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well.

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Speaker 2: So explain a little more about who Roger King was

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Speaker 2: and his reputation in Philadelphia at this time.

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Speaker 6: Roger King was a bit of a legend in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 6: a very sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came

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Speaker 6: from Alabama. His dad was a minister. He clearly was

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Speaker 6: raised with this. He learned the language of preaching. Let's

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Speaker 6: put it that way.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical, and was

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Speaker 5: very very effective and deployed that in the courts in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 5: and you know, in a very cynical way.

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Speaker 6: The District Attorney's office would bring him out and assign

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Speaker 6: these cases where race was clearly you know, they would

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Speaker 6: they would never they would never say it, but obviously

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Speaker 6: they would deploy him in a in a very you

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Speaker 6: know where race was a question.

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Speaker 2: I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for

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Speaker 2: the wrong for conviction listening audience, what Island has been

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Speaker 2: speaking to are the dirty tactics of the Philadelphia Police

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Speaker 2: Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon. They

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Speaker 2: did it in Chester case, they did it in Anthony

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Speaker 2: Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case. My

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Speaker 2: case right, and they would threaten the witness, tell them

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Speaker 2: they put him in jail, tell them they take away

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Speaker 2: their kids, so on and so forth. And then in

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Speaker 2: terms of Roger King, he would lie, he would cheat,

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Speaker 2: he was still, he would pay witnesses. He was nothing

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Speaker 2: more than an evil man.

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Speaker 6: He was very He was a very a moral person

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Speaker 6: and a very amorl prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to

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Speaker 6: do justice, and for Roger King, doing justice was winning

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Speaker 6: at all costs. There was no review, There was no reconsideration,

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Speaker 6: There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In

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Speaker 6: Chester's case, we found hidden at evidence that he hit

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Speaker 6: that was hidden in his file that he didn't turn over,

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Speaker 6: and then and then after the trial when it was discovered,

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Speaker 6: tried to say this was that he wasn't aware of

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Speaker 6: it, it was accidental. It was in his file with time

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Speaker 6: stamps that showed he had this before trial.

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Speaker 2: Justice, speak to me about your charges. What were you

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Speaker 2: charged with? And then subsequently when they took you to

438
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: the county prison. Because I want people to understand and

439
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: know that it is something to be in prison, period,

440
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 2: but it is a different animal when you are innocent.

441
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: Speak to that if you will.

442
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 7: I was more or less numb because I couldn't believe

443
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 7: that this was happening. You know what I'm saying. You

444
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 7: watch TV all the time.

445
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 4: You see all these different things on TV about these

446
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 4: police shows, and but you never see this. And I

447
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 4: asked one of the officers, I said, look, can I

448
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 4: use the phone? I said, I haven't got on the phone.

449
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: I call my mom. Well when I called, you know,

450
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 4: I was so relieved to hear a voice the phone.

451
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 4: It's like it was only half a ring. And she'd

452
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 4: already pill up the phone. And uh, even before I

453
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 4: could say anything, she had already told me because it

454
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 4: was all over the news. I said, well, we're gonna

455
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 4: need a lawyer, and she said, we're already working on it.

456
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 4: And I said, uh, we need the best lawyer. And uh,

457
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: you know, I'm crying back and forth, we both crying.

458
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 4: My mom, we crying. But at the same time, I'm

459
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 4: realizing I can't keep crying. Just you know, being here,

460
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 4: I knew that much. So, uh, she said, we're gonna

461
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 4: get a lawyer. Well, you know, we're gonna get you

462
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 4: out of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't

463
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 4: know the uh you know what murder charges carried.

464
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 7: I ain't know.

465
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 4: I was looking at life. I ain't none of that.

466
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 4: I just knew it was. It was bad, and I

467
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 4: ended up going to d C. D C had no cells,

468
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: and they put me in this hallway and we were

469
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 4: just lying. There was this guy's lined up in this

470
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 4: hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor and you know,

471
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 4: I'm just looking around like.

472
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 7: This cannot be happening. I was there. I was only

473
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 7: in DC for I think it was two days.

474
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 4: And they told me, because I had a homicide and

475
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 4: it was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna

476
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: be moved to Holmesburg Prison and.

477
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: That is the roughest county prison in Phila. Dulph is

478
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: the worst of the worst.

479
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 7: And I didn't know that at the time.

480
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 4: And as soon as I walked on the block, I

481
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 4: saw my face on the TV and I see like

482
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 4: the whole block just got quiet, and everybody's looking back

483
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 4: at me, and I'm like, oh my god. So they

484
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 4: take me and they put me in the cell all

485
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 4: the way in the back, and they gave me a

486
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 4: single cell by myself, and then I was in the

487
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 4: cellf maybe ten minutes, and these old three old guys

488
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: came into the cell, you know, and open the gate.

489
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my mind is

490
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: they were about to attack me, you know, and you

491
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 4: know that's what I'm thinking. And it was three old

492
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: Muslim guys and they came in there and they just

493
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 4: basically told me. And we saw your situation on the TV,

494
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 4: he says, listening. He said, you're gonna be right. And

495
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 4: they gave me to run down to the block. They said, look,

496
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: mind your business. You know what I mean, respect one another.

497
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, don't look at nobody's sell.

498
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: That's and that's what I got. That that was my lesson.

499
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: They gave you the layer of land and you you

500
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: were very fortunate to have those good Muslim brothers. Uh.

501
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: I wish you knew their names so we could call

502
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: their names out. So when you get to trial, you know,

503
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: now know that you are going to trial, how does

504
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: that make you feel?

505
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: So I was real hopeful, you know, I said, there's

506
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: no way a jury can find me, you'd sic because

507
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: the jury isn't corrupt like the police officers, and the

508
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 4: district turns up that these are people of my peers.

509
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 4: So I held out a little bit more hope. Uh So,

510
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: you know, preparing for trial, you know, watching the whole

511
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: process unfold, and I'm listening to Roger King. I'm watching

512
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: all his movements and listening to his all his antics.

513
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 7: You know.

514
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 4: I said, man, this is gonna be a battle right here.

515
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 4: And I was just wondering, you know, if my attorney

516
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 4: at that time was time was up for it. I

517
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 4: just didn't, you know. I know, they came to me

518
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 4: with a deal, you know, offer me like the five

519
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: to ten. They were like, listen, just take the deal,

520
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 4: you know, and give up a shooter and you know

521
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 4: you got three years left and you'll be home.

522
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: Let me speak to that real quick though, because that's

523
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 2: another tactic. Every single one of us who had a

524
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: high profile case was offered a deal, and every single

525
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: one of us, Exonna Reeves in Philadelphia, said no. And

526
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: that's what you did. Chester.

527
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: Once again, this.

528
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: Speaks to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.

529
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 6: So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered

530
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 6: was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced.

531
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 6: Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's

532
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 6: no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean,

533
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 6: there are innocent people who would have taken that deal,

534
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 6: I can assure you, given the fear of facing life

535
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 6: in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery not

536
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 6: to take that. I'll just say that.

537
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: And for me, that's why Chester is in my phone

538
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: as a champion. He's a brave guy. So that's no

539
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: small feat. Roger King presents the state's case. And they

540
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: have the victim's friend who was standing next to him

541
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: when the robbery and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins,

542
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: whom they were paying to lie for them, and they

543
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: have your friend Ddre who they threaten to get this statement. Alan.

544
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the defense and what did Chester lawyer

545
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: gerald Stein present.

546
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 6: So I thought Jerry did a good job, very good

547
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 6: job with what he had. He cross examined Andre Dawkins

548
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 6: very effectively. Again for what he had, he didn't have

549
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 6: all of his backgrounds.

550
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: Chester. Were you when you were sitting there in that

551
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: courtroom and you had all these lies being bandied about

552
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: about you? How did you feel that your attorney had

553
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: done for you and his representation of you?

554
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 7: Looking back?

555
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, and going back to that moment,

556
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: you know, it's all new to me, Jimmy, you know

557
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, it's all new. So I'm watching it

558
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 4: as it unfolds, and I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these

559
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 4: are lies, and you know, at this point, I'm just

560
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: like it was a fifty to fifty like Alan said,

561
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: you know, I think he did the best of what

562
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 4: he could, you know, with what he had. But the

563
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: thing for me and gerald Stein where we differ was

564
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 4: that I wanted to testify, and I was very adamant

565
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 4: on testifying, but gerald Stein had told me that I

566
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: wasn't going to testify, and he told me that he

567
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 4: was going to relinquish hisself from the case if I testified.

568
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 4: So my mom and my grandmother, you know, they were

569
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: so trusting of you know, the attorney who we don't know.

570
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: But I said, okay, I said, you know, I said,

571
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 4: I'm gonna trust this. I said okay.

572
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 7: And I didn't end up testifying.

573
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: You would literally put in a no win situation because

574
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: here it is, the decision was yours, because it's your life,

575
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: your life.

576
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 4: He said that Roger King will tell your part. He

577
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 4: did say that but my whole, my whole mindset was

578
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 4: always from the very beginning, was I have nothing to hide, man,

579
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 4: I have nothing to hide.

580
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: And you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom

581
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: to know the truth. I get it, I totally get it.

582
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 6: I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just gonna say,

583
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 6: like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know, what

584
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 6: you learned coming up is it's better not to testify.

585
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 6: Once you exercise your right to testify, in some large way,

586
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 6: the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally

587
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 6: perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer

588
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 6: or you get into a bad little line of question

589
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 6: and you may have a strong case, but you could

590
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 6: lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest

591
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 6: or you don't have a good answer for one thing.

592
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 6: There's a lot of people doing a lot of time

593
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 6: because they chose to exercise their right to testify.

594
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 4: Like I just felt like all these negative things have

595
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: been said about me that you know, and I haven't

596
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 4: had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity,

597
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: and I was willing to take the chance. I said,

598
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 4: they gave me the.

599
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 7: Death penalty in life whatever, I didn't care. I said,

600
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 7: you know, I want to be at sing and fight

601
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 7: for myself. Even after we found guilty, I didn't never

602
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 7: got to speak till after I got out of prison.

603
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 7: This is twenty eight years later, So twenty eight years

604
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 7: of silence.

605
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: We all on wrong for conviction. Wanted to have you

606
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: on here was to give you a voice that you

607
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: hadn't had for so many years. And so we are

608
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: immensely glad that you and island that showed up to death.

609
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: Tell me about when you were finally when you would

610
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: convict at Trialchester and uh was your family in the courtroom,

611
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: How did everybody feel? And what happened that day when

612
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: the jury came back with their verdict.

613
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 4: Man, that was ah, yeah, that was that was That

614
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: was uh, you know, I think the roughest day of

615
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 4: my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future

616
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 4: was right here in these people's hands. And you know,

617
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: listening to Roger King make his his final argument and

618
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: you know, my attorney and I was just like, you know,

619
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 4: this can go either way, you know, cause I'm sitting

620
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 4: here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same time

621
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 4: I'm listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know,

622
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his

623
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 4: his his closing argument was just ridiculous, you know what

624
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 4: I'm saying.

625
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 7: I'm just like, did I do it? You know, because

626
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 7: it was just that compelling.

627
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: I very well know that he came and pulled out

628
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: all the stops and probably even told the jury and

629
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: everyone in the courtroom that it was a society's right

630
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: to convict you that if they didn't, they were basically

631
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: letting a criminal back on the streets. Because that's what

632
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: he has did in every single closing argument, tried to

633
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: get the public to take up arms for justice and

634
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: convict an innocent person.

635
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

636
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 4: So, after after after conclusion of all that, you know, uh,

637
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 4: you know, I looked at East juror and.

638
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 7: The jury foreman.

639
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 4: He looked at me and he winked, you know, and

640
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 4: gave me like a you know, heads like a head nod,

641
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 4: and I'm like, okay, maybe maybe they do believe, you know,

642
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 4: And they went out, and uh, I think it was

643
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: maybe like a day and a half. When they came

644
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 4: back in, no one looked at me.

645
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 7: You know.

646
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 4: It wasn't the same as when they went out. So

647
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 4: my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach, and

648
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 4: I'm just like, this is not gonna be good.

649
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 7: But I still was holding on this a little bit

650
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 7: of hope.

651
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 4: So the judge you know, read off his spell and

652
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 4: then uh, you know, he asked for a verdict and

653
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: they came back and they read a first degree and

654
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 4: it was it was not guilty.

655
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 7: So I was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe

656
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 7: this is you know, I'm like okay. I had hope.

657
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: Then when they said second degree and they said.

658
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 7: So hm hm now they said they said guilty, and

659
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 7: you know, I was just like, you know how, how

660
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 7: you know how? And then they read off the other

661
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 7: charges murdering. You know, I just I didn't understand. And

662
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 7: I turned around. I looked at my mother, and my

663
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 7: mother's face was just like I can still see it

664
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 7: so clear. I mean, she was just like she was devastated.

665
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 7: You know. My father he was just sitting there, you know,

666
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 7: but my mom's face as well.

667
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: I'll never forget. So after that, I just did I

668
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,479
Speaker 4: heard nothing else. I remember my knees buckled a little

669
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: bit and I fell down a little bit, and and

670
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 4: they asked me if I had anything to say, and

671
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 4: I told her judge, they got it wrong. I said,

672
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 4: you know, this is this is wrong. That said, you know,

673
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 4: I said, I've never lied, you know about my innocence,

674
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: you know, and I read it all down and you

675
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: know he had but he never even didn't hear nothing.

676
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 7: I said. That was a rap.

677
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: I guarantee.

678
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: I listen to audience.

679
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: If you go and look at everybody trial transcripts who's

680
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: been on wrong for conviction, you will see that when

681
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: they sentenced us, that we stood before that judge and

682
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 2: we sat once again, you're getting it wrong. We're innocent,

683
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: we didn't do it, we don't belong here, so and

684
00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: so forth. Talk to me Chester about your after all

685
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: the years go by, what was your lowest point being

686
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: incarcerated upstate? And then we'll get to what your highest

687
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: point was. But I want the audience to know what

688
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: was your lowest point in prison for something you didn't do.

689
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 4: There were many low low points. I think the entire

690
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 4: twenty eight year was a low point. But I think

691
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 4: my lowest point was, uh, I was losing my mom,

692
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 4: you know, because she had been my strongest advocate, my

693
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 4: my biggest supporter, and she was like everything everything to me.

694
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: And when you lose a loved one, it's it's gonna

695
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: be tough, really in prison or not. But being in prison,

696
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 4: you know, it's I think it's even harder because, like

697
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 4: I said, you know, this is the one person I

698
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 4: would I would get anything for my life, you know,

699
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 4: and did everything for me. And to go back into

700
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 4: that block and not be able to cry and shed

701
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 4: a tear and show this weakness, you know, it was

702
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 4: it was it.

703
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 2: Was hard, right, you can't do that in prison, right,

704
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: you couldn't even grieve.

705
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 4: My mom had always told me, you know, I talked

706
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 4: my mom every day. If there's a way to will

707
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 4: there was a way to go.

708
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 7: On that phone.

709
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 4: I got on the phone and I called her every

710
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 4: day and she always told me every day at the

711
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 4: end of the phone called do not lose yourself. And

712
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 4: she told me that every single phone call, do not

713
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: lose yourself. And uh, you know, and then begin I

714
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 4: didn't know that you know what that meant. But as

715
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 4: time went on, I said, okay, just be the man

716
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 4: and I raised you to be, and uh, you know

717
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 4: that's all I tried to do. Man, you know, I said,

718
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 4: these people have smeared my name. They've taken my freedom.

719
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 4: I said, you know, I'm going to show them that

720
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 4: they're wrong, you know. So I just tried to move

721
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 4: by my actions and carry myself in a way that

722
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: would speak louder than my voice could speak.

723
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: Did you take any classes? Did you did you immerse

724
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: yourself in the law? Did you did you have any

725
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: hobbies to make the time go by while you were

726
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: fighting to prove your innocence?

727
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 4: You know, I definitely immersed myself into the law. I

728
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 4: read a lot of books, did a lot of working out.

729
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 7: You know.

730
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 4: Matter of fact, I worked out more and probably than

731
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 4: than I did eating. I was I was actually the

732
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 4: strongest guy in the prison.

733
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 6: You know.

734
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: I had broken so many different records you just trying

735
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 4: to take because I was that anger was being directed

736
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 4: towards these weights. So I was benching like four fifty

737
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 4: five and it's crazy, you know, but what do you

738
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 4: mention that?

739
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 6: What do you mention now?

740
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 7: Maybe one thirty five? You know.

741
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, But it was all about just trying to stay

742
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 4: you know, stay sharp the mind and physically. You know,

743
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 4: I said, this is going to be a long fight,

744
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: so I wanted to, you know, keep my wits about

745
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 4: me and my physical health. So I did everything I

746
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 4: could to keep both sharp.

747
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: So kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years,

748
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, because there were pills based on recantations by

749
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: Deirdre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those are

750
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 2: pills were denied. So I know that it had to

751
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,919
Speaker 2: be such a deabilitating process for you and were looking bleak,

752
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: but you were holding on to hope. Tell me about

753
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: when you knew that the ebbs of life were turning

754
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: in your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that,

755
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: chester about when things start to turn in your favor.

756
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 7: I'm gon say, maybe my twenty fourth my twenty fifth year,

757
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 7: maybe things I think started to you know, there's more talk,

758
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 7: and I think my case was on the front page

759
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 7: of the Daily News and all the staff had it

760
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 7: and inmates had it, and I'm like, maybe there's you know,

761
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 7: maybe things are starting to move.

762
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 2: And so this is right around the time when Larry

763
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 2: Krasner gets elected. This was a huge day for people

764
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: in Philadelphia because we had never had a district attorney

765
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: speak loudly and clearly about innocent people being in prison

766
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: and trying to right those wrongs. And one of the

767
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: most important things he did was he hired Patricia Cummins

768
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: to have the conviction integrity. She becomes his number one. So, Alan,

769
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: tell me about when that process took place, in the

770
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: petition that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins,

771
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: and how all that came to be.

772
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 6: I had our petition drawn up, she comes in. I

773
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 6: think I walked over there and handed it to her

774
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 6: the day after she started. So she called me about

775
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 6: two weeks later and said, you know, I read your letter.

776
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 6: We're very interested in this case. We're definitely going to

777
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 6: take this up, and I've ordered the homicide file for

778
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 6: you to review, which that came in about a month later.

779
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 6: And then we found that other evidence in the homicide file.

780
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 6: I opened the file and what was, without a question,

781
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,399
Speaker 6: like the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pull

782
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 6: a folder out. The first thing is pull this folder out.

783
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 6: It's a memo from a police officer who manned the

784
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 6: tip line the night of the crime. They received an

785
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 6: anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of

786
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 6: the getaway cars. I said in the beginning, there were

787
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 6: three rented Chevy Blazers with the same tag roughly the

788
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 6: same tag, but Denise in rent was the name on

789
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 6: the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles.

790
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 6: And you know, we believed she was involved. We spent

791
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 6: a long time looking for her. Not that it was

792
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 6: not that easy to find her, believe it or not.

793
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 6: But when we did, she was very welcoming and we

794
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 6: spoke to her many on numerous occasions. I mean, she

795
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 6: never admitted involvement in the case, but she said a

796
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 6: lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually, in

797
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 6: one of the interviews, she said, I once out of

798
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 6: thirty eight we had to get rid of because there

799
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 6: was a quote unquote body on it, and of course

800
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 6: thirty eight was used in this case. That was the

801
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 6: gun used in this case. And she says this to us,

802
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 6: and that memo with the information the anonymous tip identifying

803
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 6: her gets buried in the homicide file never turned over.

804
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: So Alan, bring me to the day when you know

805
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: that Chester is going to be released. Tell me how

806
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: you felt, Tell me how his family felt. Tell me

807
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 2: were you able to reach out to Chester and let

808
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: him know that she was coming to get.

809
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 6: We go to this hearing the judge ordered this hearing.

810
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 6: We didn't know she was going to release Chester that day.

811
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 6: We just thought she had some questions. And she asked

812
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 6: us a handful of question, says well, I want to

813
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 6: release him today.

814
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 7: Can you give me an order?

815
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 6: And Patricia comings, you know, the DA and I look

816
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 6: at each other like yeah. We sit down and we

817
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 6: write a hand rated order, you know, give it to

818
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 6: the judge and she signs it and faxes it up

819
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 6: to the prison. And then it was like we all

820
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 6: jump in our cars. I called Chester's family. We all

821
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 6: jump in our cars and we're like, you know, it

822
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 6: was like the amazing race we're trying to get who's

823
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 6: going to get to the prison first.

824
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: You know, that's an incredible story, that's an incredible moment

825
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: for you as an attorney, and I just want to

826
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: say thank you for being a vessel that helped reunite

827
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: Chester with his family. What you did was no, no

828
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: short of being heroic. Chester, How did you feel about that?

829
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 2: When Alan is telling you, even before you got released,

830
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: how did you feel about that?

831
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 4: It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that

832
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 4: you know, my shoulders straightened up a little bit, because

833
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 4: you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what

834
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 4: I mean. I'm twenty eight years in and you know,

835
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 4: I hear the talk and I hear all the rumblings,

836
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 4: but at the same time, it's like, I'm still here.

837
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 4: You know that that morning when they called me back

838
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 4: to the block and uh, the counselor called me upstairs,

839
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 4: she says, I need you to pack your stuff. You're

840
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: gonna be going home tomorrow morning.

841
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 7: You know. I thought she's playing.

842
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 4: So I get over there and she says, uh, uh

843
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 4: the judge is called and uh, they're releasing you today.

844
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: So I'm just like how, you know how, and she's like,

845
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: I don't know, but you're going home, you know. And

846
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 4: it's just like, you know, you don't you don't you

847
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 4: know your hope, but you don't, you know, you don't believe.

848
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 4: It's just you know what I mean. So it was

849
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 4: just everything. I'm just so surreal, you know. And before

850
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 4: I can get back to my cell, which is on

851
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 4: the other side of the block, the whole jail had

852
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 4: already already found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants,

853
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: you know, everybody coming to myself congratulate me.

854
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 7: And I didn't have it. I didn't have an opportunity

855
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 7: to really process it, you know. So now the captain

856
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 7: of security, he's telling me you have to get outside,

857
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 7: you have to get out to the prison because now

858
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 7: you're considered a civilian. I'm like, cat, I just been

859
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 7: here twenty five years. Now you tell me I got

860
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 7: to go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes. So they

861
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 7: gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to leave a

862
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 7: place where I've just spent majority of my life. I

863
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 7: just couldn't believe it. And then I get outside.

864
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 4: And my sister and my father and my uncle right

865
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 4: there in the lobby, and it was just like you know,

866
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 4: and I still couldn't believe it, you know, I said, man,

867
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 4: you know.

868
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 7: And when we.

869
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 4: Finally got across the bridge and I got out the car,

870
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 4: and I looked back at the prison, and that's when

871
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 4: it hit me, like, you know, finally, you know, like

872
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 4: you know, and what've so much about being and free

873
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 4: just about I mean, that's the main thing. But them

874
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 4: finally hearing my voice and believe in me, you know.

875
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: Right your dad, truth came out. I can tell you

876
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: first hand. When you are in prison, all you want

877
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: is for someone, anyone to see who you truly are

878
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: as a human being, because you don't belong it. Chester.

879
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 2: Tell me about your life now, and I hear you

880
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 2: have an incredible friend that piles around which you tell

881
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: me about that a little bit.

882
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was. I was.

883
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 4: I was very fortunate, you know. Prior to being released,

884
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 4: I worked in activities department at retreat and they had

885
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: a dog program where they were we would get dogs

886
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 4: from Lazerne County SPCA and they would bring dogs in

887
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 4: inmates to train and we had a six month old puppy.

888
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 4: It was a puggle, very tiny, very tiny. Like I said,

889
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: I watched this dog for for months, you know what

890
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 4: I mean, time she was there and uh, you know,

891
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 4: once things started pregnant about my case, the activities managers

892
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 4: Todd Quebeca, he was actually in charge of the dog

893
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 4: program anyway. He says, if things ever work out for you,

894
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: I want you to take one of these dogs. I

895
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 4: think you should take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttons

896
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 4: at the time. So I was like, nah, I said,

897
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 4: if I get out, the last thing I want to

898
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 4: do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm

899
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 4: you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do

900
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 4: so you know. Uh that that day came and I

901
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 4: found I was leaving. I was like, he said, you

902
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 4: need to take this dog. And I was like all right,

903
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 4: And I came brought her home and we renamed her,

904
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 4: uh Journey, and uh, she's upstairs right now, and I

905
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 4: and I got and I gotta say this, man, you know,

906
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 4: you know, God does things.

907
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 7: You know, just it's just it's just the way things happen.

908
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 4: Man, It's just you know, this dog really, like I think,

909
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: saved my life because it's been rough out here, you

910
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 4: know for me, and you know, so you know, just

911
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 4: having her and knowing what we came through and we'll

912
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 4: be you know, where we're at now.

913
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 7: It's just been a you.

914
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 4: Know, saving grace for me. And as far as where

915
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 4: I'm at now, you know, you know, the main people

916
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 4: know about the settlement. You know that was that occurred.

917
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 4: You know, that brought on a whole nother layer to

918
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 4: my life. A lot of difficulties with that because like

919
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 4: they say, more money brings more problems and uh, and

920
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 4: that is the truest statement I think I've ever heard

921
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 4: in my life. I'm not complaining about my life because

922
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: you know, like I said, where we came through and

923
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 4: we had to overcome to where we are now. You know,

924
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 4: I just I take it all in stride and I'm

925
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: grateful for it all. But at the same time, man,

926
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 4: it's it ain't as easy as people may think, you know,

927
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 4: going through all that, and then they think because they

928
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 4: give you the money that life is good now, and uh,

929
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 4: you know, you know, it's just it's a lot to process.

930
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: You and I, you know, uh talk about these things often,

931
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: and I know you have a great deal of wisdom.

932
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: I want to know what you think I were wrong

933
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: for conviction audience can do to help people like us

934
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 2: and stop this from happening to other people.

935
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 4: Well, and only the first thing that comes to mind

936
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 4: is getting out to vote. You know, these politicians that

937
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 4: are you know, that have been there in these uh

938
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 4: uh forever with these old school mentality uh, you know,

939
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: people who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand,

940
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 4: you know, I have a hard time understanding how you

941
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 4: know people are so hard on line Christ. No one's perfect.

942
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 4: We know that already, you know, but you know, just

943
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 4: seeing a few of the things that he's done in

944
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 4: terms of trying to right the wrongs. You know, you

945
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 4: know innocence product. You know it's one thing you know

946
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 4: to get involved with innocince product. But there's only so

947
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 4: much we can do there.

948
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: And Alan, do you have anything to add.

949
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 6: I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote and

950
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 6: I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations, I

951
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 6: got news stories, we found the other witness. I found everything.

952
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 6: Did you know what made a difference? Larry Krasner got

953
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 6: elected and was willing to look at the evidence in

954
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 6: a different way. Politics is what made the difference, Jimmy,

955
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 6: you and Chester are free because of politics and the

956
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 6: old way of looking at things doing things. The old

957
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 6: way of running a DA's or prosecutor's office was not

958
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 6: going to ever change any of this. The only way

959
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 6: things are going to change is to is the is

960
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 6: the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period.

961
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: So, Chester, we have something on wrongful conviction called closing arguments.

962
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: So I'm going to hand this mic off to you,

963
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 2: and I want you to speak from your heart and

964
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: tell a wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what

965
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 2: you think.

966
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, if I say anything, I was just like,

967
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 4: it's just about bringing awareness to uh wrongful convictions. You know,

968
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 4: prior to you know, me entering prison.

969
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 7: And and and and.

970
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 4: Seeing it firsthand, you know, I never would have thought

971
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 4: these things are possible. You know, you look on TV

972
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 4: and see people being arrested, and you know, they paint

973
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 4: this picture of guilt before innocence. And you know, I

974
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 4: just want people to be aware that before we jump

975
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 4: to conclusions and and you know, just to listen and

976
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 4: to the facts and and learn more about these types

977
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: of things. You know, in regards to the law itself,

978
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 4: these people have committed crimes, you know, these people that

979
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 4: allow these things to happen. Holding people accountable. To me,

980
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: it's more than anything. And these police officers that stole

981
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 4: my life, your life, just just make it, I say,

982
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: bringing awareness to these types of things. And you know,

983
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 4: I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today.

984
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 4: Thank you Jimmy. You know, you know I got a

985
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 4: lot of love for you. You know, whatever I can

986
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 4: do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be there

987
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 4: for you as well, you know, So I just thank you'

988
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 4: all for having.

989
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: Us, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your

990
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 2: guest host, Jimmy Dennis. I like to thank our executive

991
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: producers Jason Flumm and Kevin Waters. The senior producer for

992
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: this episode is Jackie Pauley and our producers are Lilah

993
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: Robinson and Jeff Clydborne edit is Roxandra Guidy. The music

994
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer

995
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at

996
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on

997
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.

998
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 3: On all three.

999
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: Platforms, you can find me on Facebook as Jimmy Dennis

1000
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also an R

1001
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: and B singer songwriter and you can find all my

1002
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: music on iTunes.

1003
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: Or wherever you get your music.

1004
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

1005
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company Number one.

1006
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrong Conviction,

1007
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois

1008
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: about being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime

1009
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for

1010
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: Good's newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story

1011
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: of Leo Schofield, a man wrongfully convicted for the murder

1012
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: of his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated

1013
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: at Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dua

1014
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: was held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview,

1015
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work

1016
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: and junk science that landed Robert on death row. Listen

1017
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed